Doh�

DIVORCE AND CHILDREN: NEW STUDY CONFIRMS IRREPARABLE HARM

A PDF of the original article may be downloaded for free here: http://marri.us/get.cfm?i=RS12A01

IMO, adultery by a parent (especially the mother) is pretty much as damaging to the COM even if divorce is avoided. Personal experience.

I totally agree ... I struggle with this daily. My parents are divorced and my mother monsterized my father my entire childhood and used me agasint him to the point that I feared him and he never did anything to deserve the fear I had for him (looking back of course now i see this) .. I also had abandonment issues becasue my mother would introduce me to every one of her new boyfriends and I would grow attached and then out of no where they would leave my mom .. I grew up watching my mom go through men like crazy. She had 2 more kids with 2 other men of whom she never married (shes been married 3 times and is seperated from her last marriage but refuses to pay for the divorce, but has been with like 3 other guys since she seperated) From that I realized i was just a welfare check and a child support payment to her. To this day .. (even just last week) my mom trys to guilt me with the "i did the best i could" with all sorts of excuses as to why she did the things she did ..

I struggle daily with gods word on "honour your mother and father" and feel my mother doesnt deserve any honour as she continues to lie to herself about the choices she made .. I told her i do not accept the choices she made but i forgive her as jesus wants us to forgive and she craps on me about my beliefs and claims I am judging her .. and refuses my forgiveness but wants acceptance.

I wish my parents had never divorced .. but BOTH were unfaithful to eachother and neither one accepts responsibilty for it NOR appologizes for their immature behaviours that resulted in the divorce. My dad makes a great effort now to be in his grandkids lives but my mother moved 8 hours away and then guilts me for not coming to visit. I feel sorry for my mom .. and now have a much better relationship with my dad and my mom dislikes me for it because she told me all my life that my dad was going to be the lonely one... its turning out to be her and she continues to guilt me for it to this day which is driving us even farther apart.

How does one follow gods word and honor your father and mother when your mother doesn't even own up to what she and has to lie to herself so much she believes her own lies? I feel so sorry for her ... especially now that I know MB and can see plain as day where their marriage fell apart and neither one owns up to it and they both blame the other. When I point out what I know she denies it .. and then in the same breath says she did those things to protect me!? I feel so sorry for her and guilty and am ashamed of my mother for the way things have turned out and every time we speak it always comes back to the hurt she has and the hurt I have and she just continues to blame everything else except herself then throws my religious views at me saying things like "what god would want your mother feeling hurt like this that you would say these things to open up my wounds and hurt me with what you feel i should not have done" ..it seems like shes been living in the fog all her life and just doesn't "get it"

Sorry for the rant and mild thread jack/vent .. but this struck a chord with me. The PDF file in mention on the OP's post was a good read .. but struck me hard.

MNG

I don't know the answer to those questions, MNG. I know that I gave up trying to persuade my wayward mother of anything, decades ago. I also gave up trying to have any sort of relationship with her.

Now through Marriage Builders, I can understand my wayward mother, and her wayward mother, much better than I could years ago. But I still don't see a way forward, and I'm also aware that my own mother's attempt to keep her wayward mother as an influence in her life was dangerous for her own character and personal development. I don't want to risk that in my life, and I don't want to risk that in my children's lives, so we just don't see her. It's not pleasant to be around her, and nothing good comes of it.

My mother is dead. My wayward mother is an alien, and I don't know her. I know nothing about what is going on in her life, and I rarely think of her. Doing so enables me to move forward in my own life and not be perpetually triggered by bad memories.

Just rambling here, not offering suggestions.

My dad was faithful and a good man, but since I became married he also became similarly skilled in trying to motivate me to do what he wants through guilt.

I don't put up with that crap any more. That's the same kind of behavior he always complained about from his mother-in-law (my lunatic wayward grandmother), who would bawl and cry to get her way all the time.

I don't think honoring my parents requires me to subject myself to emotional manipulation.

Thanks Markos ... I appreciate the rambles ...

I feel constantly guilt ridden that I do not want to know my mother anymore. Shes on FB and every time i post something on facebook about MB she sends me a message on how much that hurts her for me to post such things and feels judged like I posted it on purpose to hurt her..... Both my parents were wayward but my dad makes such a great effort to be in our lives that I actually have a love bank for him.

MNG

My friend, your mother controls how you feel about her. She should feel guilty about this, not you.

Don't try to prevent her from facing the consequences of her behavior.

Before I knew MB She was under the impression I was ok with everything ... and i kinda was .. she even reminds me of such and how i used to be ok with it. After i helped deal with my wifes mothers affair and blew that out of the water, my resentment for my mother grew ALOT. It triggered alot of bad memories in me and I felt it was time she knew how i really felt about ALL that went down through my time i lived with her (moved out with my wife at 17) I sat down and wrote a 5 page letter of all the things i didnt like and how i really felt about it .. she HATED it .. she blasted me and blamed me and reminded me how i supported her emotionally through all those times and how i should have said something back then ... and how dare I turn on her now after allll these years when she did those things to protect me. GAHH!!!!!!! what a bunch of BS! I wish i had of had the guts earlier in life to really tell her how i felt instead of bringing it up years and years later when my wifes mothers affair triggers it all to be nice and fresh again.

Sorry im ranting again ... this is a hard topic.

Thats a tough one ... she raised me until i moved out with my wife at the age of 17 (my wife was 16 at the time i moved out and into our first apartment together) I had to get out of that house ... I was treated like the dad of the house as my 2 younger brothers were 10 and 11 years younger than I. I felt guilty for abandoning them too .. almost like I should have taken them out of that house with me when i moved out ... but i knew it was not my place .. i was just confused.

OK there I go rambling again ... this almost should have been on my thread lol ... as I am dealing with the aftermath of a fight from my mom last week over these issues.

Gah .. sorry for the rants. i know i shouldnt feel guilty .. but for some reason i still do. Maybe i should cut her out of my life now that she knows how i really feel.

*shrugs*

MNG

A, I am letting you know I linked to this thread *** here ***

My father [passed on 2006] was just as corrupt as your mother. He lifestyle and his views made me sick. I disassociated myself from him almost entirely the last 25 years of his life. The best way I found of dealing with him was to follow the Bible: I did not forgive him [he never asked for forgiveness and never repented so there was nothing to forgive him FOR] and I disassociated myself from him. The Bible says have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, so that is what I did. I avoided him as much as possible.

But at the end of his life when he became terminally ill and didn't have 2 cents to rub together, I made sure he was well cared for and had a place to live. [my sister paid his rent on an annual basis and I paid for everything else] He wouldn't go into nursing home, so I hired nurses to take care of him 24/7. I flew out there often to stay on top of things and keep him under control. [he would try and run the nurses off with his gun and when that didn't work light up a pot cigarette while on oxygen] I had his house cleaned every day and his meals cooked for him and when I was there, I treated him with kindness and respect. That is how I "honored" my dishonorable father.

It was my responsibility as his child to take care of him, which I did, but that didn't mean I had to allow his darkness to poison my life.

Thanks ML .. that must have been soo hard! I am dreading the days I have to look after my parents ... and step parents. My exterior family (pretty much everyone not living in my household that is) is such a wreck ... so much adultery and so broken .. they look puzzled at me when i talk MB to them .. like its taboo to them almost or they give me the "that works for you but not everyone" speech.

I tell my DD and DS (mostly DD since she understands a lot more than DS)that our family now starts here with truth and honesty ... and that we are going to fix our family from this generation forward and not repeat what our family has done in the past.

They have asked me several times why our family is so broken up .. why no one can get along in one place and why we have so many grandparents and step grandparents etc. Its tough and I get embarrassed when I have to talk about my family like that ... my wifes family is very similar but once we had kids most of them disappeared like they wanted nothing to do with us or our kids.

Seems the abnormal is the new norm for society .. or maybe its just my perspective?

*shrugs*

MNG

MNG, have you read Defending Traditional Marriage? I shied away from this one for quite awhile, but it turned out to be pretty interesting, particularly for a child of divorce, in my opinion.

It might not be what you think.

Hmm .. i may look into that when i do my next book purchase ..

I currently own: HNHN, HNHNFP, fall in love stay in love, buyers renters and freeloaders, lovebusters, draw close.

My next book purchase was going to be that one about helping others since it seems everyone comes to me for marital help now (some of my friends anyhow not my family).. i will probably get both then if you think it would be a good read.

I so agree with this. It has a very different view of marriage from what I was taught by my parents.

Great article. The pain of the A was HORRIBLE, but the pain of OC was a gazillion times worse. I wanted a baby with POSex SO BAD but was never able to conceive even despite reproductive therapy. Docs could never really explain why it wasn't "happening"....it just "didn't".....

Knowing what I know now, do I think this is a coinkidink? NO! I KNOW it was divine intervention.....God protecting me from what he already knew POSex was going to do.

I am now THANKFUL we didn't have any COM. I could NEVER deal with MY COM being around OW. Nuh uh...would never happen. I'd move to China first. I'm not kidding....

Now, OW has 2 COM with her exH. So MY POSex RUINED her marriage, caused her to get D, then moved OW/her COM/OC in with him before our D was even final. (This move also put the COM's 1600 miles away from their bio dad...OW has custody and he didn't put a "no move out of state" clause in the D.) And to my knowledge, he has not married her yet. I honestly don't think he will....it's all about OC.

Makes me sad for OW's precious COM's. They are completely innocent, but yet will be damaged by their parents D, their sorry mama cheating with a MM, then the drama of shacking up with their mama's AP.........

Sheesh.

I have not read it straight through, but surveyed it and read enough excerpts to get the gist. It's very interesting for someone who wants to reverse what happened in his own childhood and work to change culture.

It's also dirt cheap on Amazon. I think we got it for only a couple bucks!

MNG, here's an interview with Dr. Harley I also find interesting.

Sorry, I hope I'm not threadjacking too badly.

This used to be up on familychristian.com, but apparently they have taken it down. Here is an archive:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080704061435/http://www.familychristian.com/books/harley.asp

Markos that article is wonderful.

I find the art of negotiating wonderful today. I negotiate in everything I do to get practice.

Dr. Harley makes perfect sense to me, and I am finding myself in "AWE" by how smart he is on this topic.

I look for threads that I have the opportunity to work with someone who needs to negotiate. Mostly I find them in MB101.

Negotiating is a skill, and besides instilling GOD into my children, I want my children to learn the art of negotiating. If I accomplish nothing else in my life, I just pray I can accomplish teaching my children GOD and negotiating.

Tough~

That was a good article. I fear for my kids that this could be some of the outcomes with them. I have tried very hard to step up and be there for my kids and try to help keep things the article states from happening. Things like school, and church, the things i can have a little control on. The fate of there mom and that relationship i feel is out of my hands. She is burning the bridge everyday and it sounds like it is going to end up like all the other relationships i have read about on here.

*lightbulb moment* for me

I'd love to hear more about this.
Pretty please.

Sorry lostman .. I hope i didnt paint the divorced parents picture too badly... I was fuming and stewing after i read the article. It was a good article but it sure triggered me.

You didnt alarm me to anything i dont already worry about. I have to say that since WxW has left, some things at home have gotten better actually. And my 2 oldest boys that are in school are straight A's and good behavior at school. I have had several people(including my kids) tell me that things seem better off with their mom gone. But at the same time they still want her to come home. I cannot really figure out why.. I think its the idea of mom, rather than the mom they lost at the moment. I know they are still confused and angry, but we talk often about this. I had an old babysitter come by last night to see the kids and they were stuck on her like glue. They really are longing for a mom figure at home.

Don't fear Lost - teach them the Art of Negotiation.

I do this with my children daily. Granted there are some decisions I make if it concerns their safety, well-being, or discipline.

Here are some of the things I do.

When my children fight with each other ... I stop them and ask how we can find a solution to the cause of their fight. Most of the time it is with sharing. I try to encourage them to negotiate with their sibling on time. For example, would you be okay if I played with this toy for 20 minutes and then gave it to you? If the other sibling says, "No I want it NOW", then I step in and say, "You cannot have it now, can you have patience and get the toy in say 15 minutes?" Then the other sibling says, "But mom I said 20 minutes", and I look at the two of them and say, "D8 would it be okay if you gave the toy to S6 in 15 minutes, and then you can do something else you enjoy?" Then I say to S6, "Can you do something else you enjoy for 15 minutes until you are able to get the toy?"

It is a way for me to encourage them to find a solution that makes both of them happy.

We also do this with vegetables and fruit. "Children would you be happy with these kind of apples?" No mommy we like the red ones. "Well mommy doesn't like the really red ones, so can we try these apples that are mostly red with some green?" "Yes mommy, those apples are good."

It is just my way of trying to teach them to find solutions that make them and I both happy. I hope it sinks in ...

Tough~

They will long for that forever Lost, and their current emotional needs are being shaped by her absence. I encourage you to teach them about why their emotional needs are a certain way, so when they are men they can choose a wife who can meet those needs well.

I am not sure what you mean by this because emotional needs are only relevant within the context of a romantic relationship. These kids are not in a romantic relationship. So what do you mean that their emotional needs are being shaped by her absence? How?

This is something i must get a handle on thats for sure. Everything at home is generally good shape with the boys except sharing. I need to start with this approach and see what i can accomplish--Thanks for your input.

How they are raised will determine what they look for in a romantic relationship. Each person's emotional needs are shaped by their environment and how they were raised.

Being raised without a mother will influence what the boys will look for in a woman. They may have a high need for FC because they don't want to repeat the adultery. Their admiration need may be super high because they were neglected in that department as a child. If your parents always kept a neat and tidy home, then you may have a high emotional need for DS in a romantic relationship.

It is wise to help a child understand their emotional needs, and encourage them to find a romantic partner who meets them. As the mom I will be able to see what they look for in a mate as they grow and get boyfriends/girlfriends. As the mom I will be able to see certain emotions that are important to them because I raised them.

It is my job to teach them how to get those needs met by their partner. Since I am a single mom, they will not be seeing how their father and I meet each others emotional needs.

But FC and DS do not create romantic love. They are not intimate emotional needs. People don't fall in love over FC and DS, because those needs are obviously not met while dating. You don't even have to be together to meet those needs. Romantic love is created by meeting the intimate emotional needs. Intimate emotional needs are reactions that create romantic feelings. Your children do not have romantic relationships right now so those ENs aren't being shaped.

For example, I came from a very broken home, and my top intimate emotional needs are affection and conversation. That is no different than most, even though I come from a very broken home.

So while I don't agree that emotional needs are being shaped, I do agree that your children can learn so much from this experience. I know that I learned alot from watching my own father's serial adultery.

I really like Dr. Harley's article on Choosing a Mate....Compatibility. I have printed it off and although my ds is only 12 I am gradually introducing the idea to him of looking for a proper mate someday. I think it is important for him to understand what his requirments will be for a wife. I want him to set the standard high...and to be the kind of man who will attract a high quality wife.

You learn intimate conversation and affection from your parents. It doesn't matter what kind of home life you grow up in, the fact is your emotional needs are shaped by your environment, how you were raised, and your parents.

I would be a fool to ignore the issue of my children growing up without a father. My girls need for affection will be greatly shaped by this, and if I fail to teach them about this need, they will seek it from any man that would give it to them. It is my job to teach them their high need for affection must also be in conjuncture with other needs so they are choosing a man who is the whole package and not just one-sided. This is where I establish boundaries for them. See the linkage?

My S6 talks all the time, my D8 is much more quiet. These differences will shape their intimate conversation. My D8 would rather be cuddled and quiet when she is sad. My S6 would rather tell me in great detail when he is sad.

If you notice so many folk come on here to discuss their childhood and how that caused their affair. What they are really saying is I didn't realize my emotional needs, so I married someone who didn't meet them, I dropped my boundaries because this new person met some of them better than my spouse. That is why we don't talk about childhood issues. We know your childhood contributed to your emotional needs, it was your boundaries silly that made the affair possible. That is why we are all wired for affairs.

The goal is to direct those posters to understand why they have emotional needs, what they are exactly, and how their spouse can meet them. You can agree with them their childhood helped shape their EN's, but until they adhere to boundaries and letting their spouse meet those needs exclusively, they are likely to have an affair.

But you don't create romantic love with your parents or your brother, that is my point. Affection and conversation with parents is not even in the same universe as the emotional needs that create romantic love so those are not shaped by your environment. So equating the needs that create romantic love with conversation with your brother or mother misses the point.

We don't understand WHY people have certain emotional needs and don't need to understand why in order to meet them. Whether one's childhood has anything to do with it at all is certainly not relevant. Dr Harley makes it a point to avoid such discussions because it has no relevance.

I do understand why it makes sense to teach kids about MB concepts so they can make good marriages for themselves. That makes perfect sense and I would agree with you there.

And you will also have noticed that they are told to stop the navel gazing, because it is a waste of time. Dr Harley calls it a needless distraction.

I never said you create romantic love with your parents or brothers.

I posted to let Lost know his boys emotional needs are being shaped by their upbringing. Someday these emotional needs will need to be met by a woman, hence "Romance".

It is important for us single parents to help our children understand why they have a high need for admiration. It is directly linked their absent father. If I fail to teach them this need is just one, and you want a partner who meets other needs of yours, i.e. clean house, physical attraction, etc. then my children will fall into the trap of taking the first guy who meets admiration, but no other needs.

It is my sole purpose as their parent to educate them to know what they need emotionally because their EN's will be skewed greatly by their absentee father.

We would do all MB folk a disservice if we told them to ignore this with their children. Yes it isn't relevant or the cause of adultery. Boundaries are the root cause.

It is my job to help MB folk to fully understand their emotional needs. Dr. Harley has done this well by his questionnaires. Those questionnaires are directly linked to how you were raised as a child, teenager, dating, and current adult state i.e. Your environment.

It is relevant to understanding your EN's and why they are the way they are -- it is completely irrelevant when discussing why you had an affair.

huh? Dr Harley doesn't care how you were raised as a child or your environment, so I have no idea what you are talking about. The only questionaire that asks any question about your past is the personal history questionaire, only for the sole purpose of showing your spouse your history. Harley doesn't care about your childhood and doesn't want to hear about it.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting you ignore this with your children, but I think its important to understand the context of emotional needs. If they are defined outside of the context of a romantic relationship, then the point is missed. You don't teach or ingrain emotional needs to children, because they just are. They is not to say that you shouldn't teach children how to achieve a happy, stable marriage. But one has to be able to present the concept of emotional needs in its proper perspective.

It is not relevant at all. What is relevant is understanding WHAT they are and how to meet them in the best way. Again, Dr Harley has no interest in one's "childhood" and views it as a distraction. You seem to be making this up as you go along, PI.

You are missing my point Melody.

I am talking about fostering an environment that allows our kids to understand why their emotional needs are a certain way, and as they grow teach them how to choose a partner who can meet those needs.

Recreational Companionship is directly related to how you were raised.

Admiration is directly related to how you were raised.

Physical Attraction is directly related to how you were raised.

You cannot deny the direct link between emotional needs, your parents, and how you were raised. It isn't naval gazing to discuss this either. It is very important. It is crucial to teach our children this concept. It is essential we foster that knowledge in them.

What is all boils down to is I am raising adults ... I am raising them for the sole purpose to marry and reproduce. It is very relevant to romantic love. They will not have successful romantic love if I fail to help them understand their emotional needs.

Correct, your adultery has nothing to do with your childhood, and maintaining romantic love has nothing to do with your childhood.


Where you are incorrect is understanding why you have certain emotional needs - all his books discuss where emotional needs come about and your childhood, your parents, and how you were raised are a direct link.

PI, you are making things up that we both know have never been asserted by Dr Harley. If is so important, then why doesn't Dr Harley ever bring it up? In fact, he says the exact opposite.

Do you have a link from Dr Harley that supports your assertion that that there is some "direct link" to childhood that is so important that it must be discussed?

I would like to see it.

I agree we should teach our children good practices for marriage, but there is no reason to muddy the waters with an irrelevant and imaginary "link" to childhood. If Harley says to leave the past in the past why would you say otherwise?

Link or page number please.

I am not making anything up. Why are you so hell bent on denying the fact your emotional needs are shaped during your childhood, as a teen, during dating, and as an adult? Do you just turn 18 and all of sudden wake up with emotional needs?

There is nothing wrong with discussing why you have certain emotional needs and they are that way because of the way you were raised?

Page 173 of HNHN discusses "Confidence usually begins at home"

Why do men love Football?
Why do woman love to Cook?

Could it be because of the way they were raised?

He says leave it in the past when it deals with adultery, not emotional needs.

Why do woman usually have a high need for financial support?

Their fathers ... and how they were raised!!!

Or could it be because they are hardwired? It is impossible to know. Harley says people's personalities are formed through a combination of hardwiring and nurture, and it is anyone's guess which has the greatest influence. My point is that one doesn't have to know WHERE or HOW they were derived and trying to figure it out is a waste of time. I have been through the MB course, have counseled with Dr Harley and know others who have counseled with Steve or Jennifer. The subject of HOW an emotional need came to be is not ever brought up because it is not relevant. What is discussed is what they are and how best to meet them. THAT is the kind of thing that is good to teach children about marriage.

Again, no link. Where does he say to delve into the past when it comes to emotional needs?

Maybe, maybe not. I know women who were raised without fathers who have a high need for FS. But how is that relevant to the present? How does knowing that help anyone in their adult life?

Page 129-131 of HNHN for parents discusses learning lovebusters and emotions in childhood and how that is brought into marriage.

Again you miss my point of this entire thread. I am shaping my children's emotional needs by how they are raised. It is my job as their parent to help them understand these emotions as they age. Their EN's will change over time, and it is my job to help them understand how to handle the changes.

I feel it is perfectly acceptable to help MB folk understand why they have a need and how their spouse can meet that need. Most come here with the illusion they don't have to change ... they should just sacrifice. If you want to help someone figure out what recreations they enjoy most often they go back to high school and college. Why is admiration important for men because of the praise they received as a child and hence they need their wife to now be their biggest fan.

But how does that prove your point? You said that he advocates delving into childhood when it comes to emotional needs. Those pages you noted are all about not role modeling independent, thoughtless behavior to children. I agree that parents should not role model disrespectful behavior.

Once again, how is this relevant? And how is it possible to even know this? That is the point that you are missing, PI. Dr Harley does not place any relevance on how or why an emotional need might be created so I am unclear about why you do. In fact, he says that EN's are hardwired and can't be changed without immense difficulty.

As I have pointed out ad naseum, Dr Harley does not examine one's childhood when it comes to ANYTHING. Do you know this? So why are you placing such emphasis on it yourself?

I am not trying to be argumentative with you PI, but I don't think it helps anyone to place an arbitrary importance on something that Dr Harley does not feel is important. I have been through the MB course, and believe me, they NEVER once asked how or why my H or I had certain emotional needs.

The program is really very simple and straightforward. Why muddy the waters?

"Divorce permanently weakens the family and the relationship between children and parents. It frequently leads to destructive conflict management methods, diminished social competence and for children, the early loss of virginity, as well as diminished sense of masculinity or femininity for young adults. It also results in more trouble with dating, more cohabitation, greater likelihood of divorce, higher expectations of divorce later in life, and a decreased desire to have children.

Divorce leads to a decline in children�s ability to trust their fathers, which does not bode well for the lifetime happiness of divorced children. Young adults who feel emotionally close to their fathers tend to be happier and more satisfied in life, regardless of their feelings towards their mothers.

Men whose parents divorced are inclined to be simultaneously hostile and a �rescuer� of the women to whom they are attracted, rather than the more open, affectionate, cooperative partner, more frequently found among men raised by parents of an intact marriage. By contrast, the problem of being overly meek or overly dominant is much more prevalent in the romantic relationships and marriages of the daughters of divorced families than it is among daughters of intact marriages.

Children who experience divorce at any age will continue to be affected their whole lives, tending to �exhibit higher malaise scores at age 33 than their contemporaries whose parents remained married."

---
eta: �One study reported that persons raised in divorced families have less positive attitudes towards marriage, and more positive attitudes towards divorce. This negative attitude about marriage leads to decreased commitment to romantic relationships, which in turn is related to lower relationship quality.

Adult male children of divorced parents show more ambivalence than men from intact families about becoming involved in a relationship, though they invest more money and tangible goods in casual dating relationships. Women share this ambivalence and demonstrate even more conflict, doubt, and lack of faith in their partner�s benevolence and tend to place less value on consistent commitment

Unwed teen mothers, who have expectations of rejection and divorce in relationships, seem to retain negative attitudes towards men instilled by their parents� divorce.

Parental divorce is also associated with lower marital quality for their children. This manifests itself in arguing more about the family, increased rates of jealousy, moodiness, infidelity, conflicts over money, excessive drinking, and drug use.

Analysis of the 1987-1988 wave of the National Survey of Families and Households showed that children of divorce whose marriages were less than �very happy� communicated less and were more than twice as likely to argue frequently and to shout and hit when they argued. The child with an available father, both in the early and the adolescent years, is more companionable and responsible as an adult. In particular, �boys who feel close to their fathers, regardless of biological status, have better attitudes about intimacy and the prospect of their own married lives than boys who do not feel close to their fathers.

In addition to an increased likelihood of being sexually active, girls from divorced families are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, to have more frequent sexual intercourse, and to have more sexual partners."
---

Sounds to me like more than one screwed up EN going on here. But, the ability to be RH, negotiate and generally avoid love busters seems to be even more affected than the ability to sort out one�s ENs. Or one�s spouse�s EN�s - which is equally important.

I think you guys are talking about different things. EN�s vs, what, self awareness. The ability to feel and the ability to act in an intimate relationship�s best interests often get conflated.

By the way, Mel, I am pretty darn sure I no longer have any intimate ENs. I consciously suppressed them well enough and long enough now to probably make this state permanent. And I feel safe, finally. I am willing to testify ENs can be controlled, modified and probably eliminated entirely if will and incentive are strong enough.

I never said he advocates delving into childhood. All I said is he has stated your childhood helps shape your emotional needs. Again you are missing the point.

I stated earlier to Lost it is important to help his children understand their emotional needs because he is helping to shape them, just as his absentee WXW. It is important for the children to learn about their emotional needs so when they are older then can choose a partner who can help meet those needs.

I also stated when someone comes here to blame their childhood for their adultery, I can correct them by letting them know their emotional needs were affected by their childhood and the lack of boundaries was the only reason for their adultery.

When someone is looking to understand why admiration is their husband's most important EN it is helpful to see why, so they can learn how to meet that need. If a man is a mama's boy it is important to know what admiration supply she is giving him, so his wife can take over the admiration role.

I am done arguing this with you. I supplied you with two examples from Dr. Harley's books that discusses how childhood can shape needs and/or teach you how to destroy love. I have supplied plenty of examples of how domestic support, financial security, and recreational activities very often come from childhood, teens, dating, and finally adulthood.

But would they be suppressed if you were in a romantic relationship? I can fully understand why they would be suppressed since you are not in a romantic relationship, but that doesn't mean they are changed. How would you know they have changed if you are not in romantic relationship? To your point, though, I know people's ENs can change over time. Harley says it is harder to change an EN [reactions] than it is behavior.

Good point. I�d have to be tested to be sure. To see if I am contagious.

Well, I know I used to have them. And now I know I don�t. And, I don�t want to even remotely try to have them again.

Is there perhaps a chicken and egg thing going on here?

I don�t have intimate ENs because I am not in a romantic relationship, but I would have to have intimate ENs that need meeting to want to be in a romantic relationship.

Which comes first? Should one come first?

Hmm ... interesting .. especially since I am 33 and this has recently come to the fore front of me and my mothers relationship.

Perhaps if you post a new happy picture on your other thread?

eta: What happened to that thread anyway?

etaa: Oh, there it is. Languishing on page OT 2.

Yes .. i have been thinking about that actually ..

I guess it pays to remember where I am posting...

I know exactly what Dr. Harley says about people who feel that way.

PrayIncessantly, I would like to applaud you for your awareness to your children's needs. Very commendable... If every child of divorce had such an aware parent, I can only imagine that these children would have a better chance to grow into well adjusted adults.

Our childhoods do help shape us into the adults we become, like it or not. Confidence or lack of confidence can certainly be instilled by your parents. Some of us have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps just to survive, on the other hand, kids from homes who were given the confidence to BELIEVE in themselves have a huge jump start in life.

It's true we all make choices in life, every day we make choices. My husband and I are both products of divorce. I deal every day with my husband who's spent his life putting up walls so he doesn't get hurt anymore...And those walls include keeping me out. I did different for my kids... I made the choice as a young mother to always, every day, tell my kids I love them. Give them hugs, give them opportunities to feel good about themselves etc. so they could concentrate on the important things in life. SCHOOL, getting their education. Not worrying about finding a girlfriend to give them a false sense of acceptance and the 'love' they should be getting at home. It works... At least it worked for my older boys.

And it's a wonderful thing to see your adult child successful and happy. Believe me!

Keep up the good fight! They are 18 and gone before you know it...

LOL. Wait 'till he gets a load of me.

I have experienced dozens and dozens of blatant opportunities to commit adultery. Adultery of every ilk. ONS. Business trips. Friends with benefits. Same time next year. Long term entangled. Many of these opportunities were before I was married � I would have been just another run of the mill OM (ugh). Most have been since I was married. Just last week the barista down the street hit on me for the umpteenth time. (I find I am mostly embarrassed. She is cute, but young enough to be my daughter.)

The entire spectrum of adultery has been laid out before me at one time or another. Both before and after the multiple D-Days of wife�s VLTA. During the extreme distance she put between us during her VLTA. When none of my ENs was met in the slightest - for a decade. When she was downright mean. But still I didn�t.

Over and over, I could have been just like every sneaky lying WS and FWS on this site. And I am pretty sure I would have gotten away with every last opportunity. I could have made every WS ever shown up on MB look like a saint in comparison.

I have been tested and retested. Still, no desire whatsoever to commit that mortal sin. Plenty of other things in life to keep me occupied. I no longer care about ENs. I had to pinch them off permanently just to survive.