I am thankful to this forum for helping me try to save my marriage.

Ultimately I was not able to save it. We were divorced last November.

I have since become engaged and my fiance' has moved in with me.

She is an advertising professional, and we have known each other for 17 years.

My ex and her get along OK, as we were friends before the divorce.

My ex and I live less than a mile apart, and we split time with our girls 50/50.

When my fiance' and I left town this past weekend, my girls decided to drop by my house and check on our kitty. Innocent enough, and my ex drove them over. My 11 year old lets herself in the garage door (she doesn't have a key to the house, just the opener code). Feeds the kitty, plays with her and leaves me a note to say she was there.

The problem is the fiance' sees this as invasion of our privacy.

I agree, but I'm not sure how to approach it.

I do not have a key or opener code to the ex's place. I have never gone over there when she wasn't home.

How do I go about asking for privacy when I am not home, but not come off as being too restrictive to the daughters?

The oldest daughter is 11 and the youngest is now 8.

Any helpful advice would be much appreciated!

Thank you.

Tim,
You are doing exactly OPPOSITE what Dr Harley would recommend.
He recommends you do NOT live together prior to marriage because you develop a renter relationship which is hard to convert to a buyer relationship needed in marriage.

Am I correct in assuming that you started dating this woman while still married?

Thanks, Jedi.

I'm not asking what Dr. Harley would recommend. I paid for his advice (actually paid his daughter while she was in Fiji but that's another matter....LOL)but still landed in divorce land.

Fact is, my fiance' rented out her townhouse and we now live together in my place.

Fact is, my ex seems to thinks it's perfectly fine to drop by when we're not home and that bothers both of us (my fiance' and I).

Help with this is what I am asking for.

Thank you.

Talked to the Ex just a few minutes ago and let her know she was overstepping a boundary that wasn't established yet.

She understood completely, and agreed that our new partners have a right to privacy.

We also agreed that the girls should not be restricted from coming over when the parent isn't home.

We agreed that any future visits be planned in advance, and as brief as possible.

The Ex says she never comes in the house when the girls come by, and I believe her. My examples of me coming over to her place when she wasn't there helped put it in perspective.

I'll update tomorrow after speaking to the fiance' tonight.

Nothing wrong with Jedi letting you know that you might be making a big mistake, though.

And I can't figure out why you'd post on Dr. Harley's forum if you're not interested in what Dr. Harley would recommend.

We get requests here all the time to help people how to figure out how to live in situations that are not adviseable to live in. Sometimes the right answer is "don't live that way"!

To me I can't figure out why your ex and your fiance are friends. That seems extremely undesirable to me.

Hopefully in not too many years your daughters will be able to come by on their own without depending on the ex wife.

I've learned that advice is to be taken, or not.

My ex is not bad to deal with at all.

My fiance' and her have known each other but never took the time to get to know each other. Friend of a friend....etc.

My ex poses no threats, and has good intentions. All of my friends and family are impressed with how "civil" we are.

I think reading all the struggles and strife here tends to lead people into the "divorce=evil" mentality.

Since I'm now divorced, and coming here for help AFTER the fact, I would hope the perspectives are adjusted to understand that people post-divorce feel like they lost. Like they are less than good people. Like they are not worthy of loving or being loved again.

The fact my fiance' and my ex are "friends" shouldn't matter. Each person is unique (just like everyone else LOL). They aren't friends that ever spoke outside of other circles, and generally like each other.

Maybe I'm trying too hard to please everyone?

I thought I'd reach out here for help, without the backtracking into why I ended up here in the first place.

I'm also hoping this thread could help others with similar problems work through it.

The answer of "don't live that way" is not helpful, nor constructive. I am not a religious person, and if I am violating religious covenants, please look past that to offer real help.

I only come here when I cannot find an answer on my own.

I appreciate all feedback.

But living together is a bad idea for religious and non-religious people!

Anyway, I don't understand why you'd come here and expect to get anything other than Dr. Harley style advice. Dr. Harley does have quite a few suggestions to divorced people, to dating people, etc. People like Jedi have invested a lot of time learning that information and are here helpfully passing it on for free.

Whether you live with your fiance or not, contact with an ex still seems untenable to me. You described talking this over with your ex in a way that would make me extremely uncomfortable, if I were your fiance. While that may be working in the short term, I wonder if it's going to become less workable for you in the long term.

Maybe not; I hope things go great for you, and wish you well. But we wouldn't be your friends if we didn't point out to you red flags that indicate possible dangers for your long term happiness. If you are the guy who smokes six packs a day and lives to 98 cancer free, more power to you!

Did you answer this?

I know the Harley way. I spent nearly a year trying to undo what happened to me.

People here are great, and that's why I value the advice I receive.

Problem I encounter is being pigeon-holed with the rest of the people here.

I simply wanted to know how to handle this situation in an adult fashion.

Shunning the ex-wife is not my style. That's Harley's style (so I believe).

So many here tell me to never talk to my ex, banish her, punish her for cheating, maintain no contact....etc.

I cannot for the life of me see the benefit of this post-divorce.

I am working it out on my own over here, and I'll post my strategy for others to follow if they so choose.

Questions like when I started dating are not relevant so I'm not answering those.

Thanks again for not ripping my face off for asking questions. Even if it ruffles some feathers because I am not a hard core follower of Harley's ways.

Divorce changed me. For the better.

It is very relevant. And your refusal to answer is very telling.

Yup.

Started dating before divorced =

Living together before marriage =

Blended family =


Sorry if you don't want to hear it but this is not looking good for your future M. Not only based on what Dr Harley says but what we see on the forums over and over again.

If your ex is not a problem and your fiance loves you enough to agree to marry you despite the existence of your children........

and you need someone to take care of pets and the kids are chosen to do it......

all is good.

If your fiance doesn't want ex to possibly enter the home, have someone besides the kids care for the pets.

Thank you, reading. You answered the question without condemning me for moving on with my life and making the best of what I have.

Red flags are everywhere, and how we deal with those red flags is what separates us as individuals.

I am not above the possibilities that may work against my best intentions, but I am a strong man with much resolve. I know what I'm doing (for the most part LOL) and rarely ask for help.

I enjoy this site. It's tough to come here and ask a question, and then get hit with questions instead.

I am engaged. I have 50/50 custody. I am 46 years old. I have a live-in fiance. She is a professional in the ad agency world. I am a professional auto mechanic and own my own business.

This doesn't make me immune to the chances of failures, but I have a hard time agreeing with EVERYTHING that Harley believes in.

We are setting up appointments for all of us with a professional counselor, and that is important to note.

I came here for a quick response to an immediate concern.

What happened?

I ended up talking with my ex on the day I posted this, and let her know about the boundaries I felt were violated. Of course she wasn't aware of them, and going forward, she knows that she is not welcome at my place when I am not there. Even if there is an excuse that one of the DD's makes up. Whatever it is, I said, can wait until I get home.

My fiance made a good point that even if I trust the ex to NOT snoop, that doesn't mean she WON'T. I agreed that my blindness in the past clouded my judgment of my ex before. Who knows what the ex is capable of? Is she scheming to get full custody? Would she try to find "dirt" on me at my home when I'm not there? Maybe. Maybe not.

Establishing boundaries is a key component of Harley's. Plan B is a good example of this.

I told my ex long ago, that when we got divorced, I would not be her friend. I'm not her "go-to" guy anymore. She's just the mother of my children. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank for the constructive replies.

No hard feelings here. I appreciate all of your replies.

Do you and your fiance use POJA?

Yes, we do.

That's one of the many lessons I learned along the way, and one of the BEST.

Another is communication. Lack of this helped torpedo my marriage. We both assumed a lot during the marriage, and we both suffered from a lack of POJA.

My fiance was married twice before and swore off marriage entirely.

She has visited this site to read up on Harley's ways, and likes it!

She has no kids from the previous two marriages, and appreciates my openness and desire for clear communication.

Good. Have you read optimism's thread? He and his new wife have a MB marriage and even were on the radio show a few times.

They really worked POJA while dating.

Does your fiance have a problem with all your contact with your WXW?

No, I have not.....but I certainly will now that you mentioned it. Thanks!

My fiance knew/knows my ex, and admits that she never really got to know her that well in the past. The same story comes out from most of my friends... My ex wasn't very talkative, and maybe it was/is the anti-depressants she's on, or just her reclusive personality. I dunno, and no longer care. By the time I recognized what was happening, it was too late. Oh well.

My fiance speaks to the ex when she comes over. The atmosphere is friendly. No animosity at all... She's just very suspicious of my ex's capabilities when we're not around. I agree. I have no idea how far the ex can or will go. So that alone is a good reason to limit contact to kids only.

I feel a lot better now knowing the ex has been banished from dropping by when I'm gone, and possibly using the kids as an excuse to look around, take pictures, snoop, etc.... who knows?

I am grateful for this site, and so is my fiance. She gives this site a lot of credit for grooming me

Would your fiance be willing to post here also?

Also here you go.
optimism's Another After Divorce Story

TB,

It's obvious that you don't like the advice you are receiving, but you have to realize that it is all really given in the best interest of you developing a healthy marriage at some point.

As far as cohabitation, Dr. Harley doesn't base this opinion on Ivory Tower Speculation - it's a marked observation by several professionals.

From a 2012 article in the New York Times;


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/o...re-marriage.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


This is just one of several.


It's kind of like heart disease; there are several factors which can increase or decrease your probability of developing heart disease. Do you want to compound risk factors? Probably not.

So, why compound risk with previous divorce and a blended family with cohabitation?

I appreciate your feedback, HHH.

Research and studies can be skewed and interpreted in many ways to satisfy just about any perspective.

Just a couple links prove this: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/living/women-premarital-cohabitation

and:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/02/24/millennials-confident-connected-open-to-change/

We are living in a new age, and with that, new perspectives.

I am too old to subscribe to black and white perspectives. To say my future M is doomed is a stretch.

To say living together before M is wrong is a bit over-zealous, don't you think?

So when you ask "why compound risk with previous divorce and a blended family with cohabitation?" I have to answer "Why not?"

We are both in love. We both learned plenty from our previous M's. We're not teenagers running off to thwart our parents.

There are kids involved. They need to see how grown-ups can handle changes. They are directly involved with these changes, and have been very happy throughout.

My fiancee didn't even meet my kids until I was certain she was the one I wanted to be with. Dating and exposure to kids is not a good idea. I think I did a good job of waiting until the right time to introduce them.

Since this is the D section, I felt we could have a good discussion about how to handle things with my ex.

But now I've already spoken to the ex about the privacy boundaries so that topic is off the table now.

I'd love to have my fiancee chime in here, but I feel that some here may try to belittle her, or shame her (and me) for living in sin, when all we really want is good advice.

Do you realistically think that we can (or should) move away from each other just for the sake of adhering to Harley's ways? Isn't it possible to use what we know going forward in a positive way?

Has it ever entered your mind that if you would have used MB prior to your M with your XW that maybe you could have avoided the challenges you had that lead to D?

Could considering really using MB NOW with your fianc� impact the future for you two?

Unfortunately, the path that you are going down is not giving you the best possible chance for a happy M.


If your fianc� knows anything about MB..she should insist you have no contact with your XW. Likewise for you.

Really? That is what you think the problems you are facing now/today/tomorrow really are? Privacy Boundaries? Ok...


If you have spent any time on this forum you know that there are many things that you should be doing differently.

You are setting yourself up for failure, friend.

Maybe not, but are you using your HEAD here? People in 'love' do many things. Have A's, leave their children, families, careers, Ruin their lives, create regrets they can never take back!

What where the lessons you learned? Please explain.

Dr. Harley has seen this happen thousands of times. People 'in love' are somewhat insane to a degree and sometimes make very poor decisions. That is exactly what I see here. You are not using your head.

Caution!

I think you know exactly the risks you are running. Your life though. Risk on!

Why not? Because Dr. Harley has statistically seen an 80%+ divorce rate in blended families.

Thanks for the input, 20YH.

It's impossible to expect anyone to adhere to Harley's methods 100%.

If we did, we'd be followers, not leaders.

I lasted 13 years in a dysfunctional marriage. I even tried my best to save it, knowing full well I wasn't happy but I was tied to her through marriage. I believed marriage was a permanent thing. It is not.

The definition of marriage means different things to different people.

I am not here to argue Harley's methods.

I have chosen to use (what I feel are) the best of his methods.

I live in the real world, and quite honestly I don't see how ANYONE can be 100% in agreement with Harley, or anyone else.

I am not here to argue. I am not here to be told "hey dummy, you are living together before M? What are you, stupid?"

I'm not sure how much religion plays into all of this, but I am not religious. Never have been, never will be.

Marriage in 2013 is not what it was in 2012, 2011, 2010....you get the picture.

What about gay marriage? Do the same rules apply? Are there folks here who would banish a gay person to Hades for even thinking of marriage to the same sex? Probably.

That's all OK. I get it. No worries.

It is my life, and perhaps my time here has run it's course.

During my divorce there were loads of hard liners here bashing me left and right. In the end, my M ended and guess what? I'm happier now than I've ever been!

Maybe I'll come back in a year or so and update again. Until then, I will sign off again.

Thanks for all of your concern and advice. If I don't take your advice, please don't be offended. It's all good.

Thank you, Dr. Harley, for making me a better man. I'm not going to follow you completely. That's the Gemini in me. Fiercely independent.

We are not living in a 'new age' with new perspectives.
You are justifying your choice to cohabit and etc.

That being said, I am not religious either.

If you choose to cohabit before marriage......go for it and the best to you both.

I would never choose to do it, nor most people who understand the depth of thought the MB stand on it is based on

but

wishing you and the fiance the best of results!

Did you read the book Buyers Renters Freeloaders?

I appreciate all the help you offered me.
If we ever meet in real life I would very much like to buy you a beer or cup of coffee.

However I strongly encourage you to read the book.
Our marriages are broken and Dr Harley is a national expert.

Doomed? No.

Facing a statistically troubled road? Yes.


Leave "wrong" to the moralists. I don't think it's "wrong." I think it is an unnecessary risk.


Well, why not walk through Compton, California with a sign that says "I hate darkies!"

Because the outlook for such actions isn't very sunny.




So, you are gonna be cool with your daughters shacking up? Right?


Simple; it usually looks like Plan B. Because if you are going to marry this new woman, any women who were of romantic interest to you should be out of the picture. You should be learning parallel parenting.


Leave sin to the theists. It's about the HABITS cohabitation creates.


Anything is possible, but we aren't working with rainbows and unicorns.

Instead, work on what is probable.

What is probable, is that by cohabiting before marriage you are going to inundate your marriage with poor, marriage wrecking habits.

And, by the way; as we are on Dr. Harley's forums, which he provides to the open public without charging a DIME, it is only common courtesy that we advise people using HIS program, and HIS principals.


Don't like it? There are other forums out there that don't advise using Dr. Harley's observations.

Here.
Parallel Parenting

Thanks, HHH. I realize Dr. H hosts this site free of charge, and we all appreciate that.

I feel like a pachinko ball that has dropped all the way to the bottom (divorce) and I am now picking up the pieces of what's left (half time with the kids, financial strife, etc...) and opening my heart to the prospects of a successful relationship with my new honey.

I understand that the failures here (those who tried but ultimately got divorced) may not be so quick to move on, and it is a very personal decision about how to proceed.

For me, I subscribe to MANY of Dr. H's advisories. POJA is a biggie. Communication is a huge one. Knowing what's in the book HNHN is very helpful (now I can see things coming a bit better).... You get the idea.

OK with my daughter's shacking up? When they are 18 they can, I suppose. Hopefully they will remember these days and apply their own morals and values to their relationships. I'm not too worried about that.

I like the word probability. So many here seem to write from the perspective of "all or nothing" and that just doesn't seem right.

I understand what I'm getting myself in to. But to advise NOT living together after I have made it very clear we ARE living together is, well, poor advice.

I have gleaned some good advice from this thread, and that counts with me. My contact with the ex is way down now. We've excluded her from our home, totally. She no longer texts with loosely related stuff about the kids...etc... And my honey appreciates that tremendously.

I agree that all past relationships be forever deleted, with no contact ever again. Makes perfect sense.

It's balancing the relationship with the ex that's at issue sometimes. I come here for help with that. I have two women in my life that are only there because they gave birth to my daughters. One is a raving lunatic whom even my 19 year old daughter recognizes to be so. The other is my now ex-wife who is off on her own now, with her own new beau and all that goes with it.

And where exactly do our children learn morals and values from? Most parents (like myself) want to help our children learn from our mistakes so they follow a healthier path in life. I know I do.

You aren't too worried about that? You are ok with your children experiencing the pain of adultery? Not focused on helping them mature in a healthy way and learning from mommy and daddy's mistakes?


Are you saying you hope they chose a different path (by pixy dust or magic, not by example) than their father and mother have showed them? The apple typically doesn't fall far from the tree.


The reason Dr. Harley has laid out his program as an 'all or nothing' program is because through 40 years experience he has seen the negative ramifications of taking alternate paths.


Of course no one is going to put a gun to your head and force you to do anything. Totally your call. Use it, don't use it. Your choice. This is a MB site and that is what posters post about!

Your life, your call.

I sure wish my W and I would have incorporated MB into my marriage years ago though...There would have been a whole lot less pain and suffering.

Bad advice? Really? People can't change? I don't believe that for one minute. So what you are saying is that you are not in control of what you do today? You don't have the physical ability to CHOOSE to reorganize your life? ok....


The MB program is based on CHANGE. That is the basis entire program. You are more than capable to of changing direction today if you want to.


But, you don't. That is cool. No problem. Your life.


What do you expect, friend? Again, this is a MB website. If you want different advice to condone and say what you are doing is 'ok' you have the wrong site. There are many out there that will most likely pat you on the back and agree with you.


This is not one of them.

This is the DIVORCE/DIVORCING section of the forum, correct?

I have been a member here ever since my D-Day way back when.... And I did my best to save my marriage. Ultimately I could not save it.

Dr. Harley has great ideas and perspectives.... that's why I'm still here.

Is it not possible that all of his ideas and suggestions are NOT for everyone? Too many differences in people and relationships to make blanket suggestions to everyone.

Even my one on one sessions with his daughter (costly but worth it...) didn't seem like it was very personalized. His daughter spoke to me over the phone from her retreat in Fiji. I listened intently, took copious notes, and tried to do what she recommended. Problem was, that my WW was not on board. She didn't care. She was detached and in her "fog". I think she still is LOL.


I'm not looking for pats on the back, or for anyone to agree with me. If you look back through this thread, I was coming here for advice from a divorced perspective on how to deal with a specific problem.

Then the conversation turned on me because I decided to live my life the way I wanted to, which happens to include things that Dr. H may not condone.

A couple people here made good suggestions, but the original post was a simple enough question, IMHO.

If I am making mistakes (according to the Harley ways...) So be it. I think I have enough control over myself, and enough awareness in my new relationship to be able to see things coming. No guarantees, no assumptions. But with the tools I learned here, I am much better off than without them, no?

I like this site. Maybe there shouldn't be a "divorce" section? The impression I get is that the big D is a statement of failure. MB is a great resource, and I've learned to take away what I can, and leave some things on the table. No worries. It's my life, and I can only control myself.

The best lesson I learned through all of this.... "The only person you can change is..... yourself."

Sure! But the purpose of this board is to discuss and learn his advice. I don't know why you are surprised to get his advice here. It's easy to click ignore on posters that are doing this to you rather than faulting them for carrying out the board's mission. We are all volunteers here, after all. Or it's easy to post somewhere else if you just don't like the idea that we are primarily on the Marriage Builders forum to discuss and learn Marriage Builders.

I haven't seen that on any of the posts to you. Maybe I missed something. Or maybe you are reading something into it. Dr. Harley certainly doesn't say divorce is failure - there are plenty of marriages that he says shouldn't be saved. In those cases, divorce is success.

How's it going?

Hey Jedi, thanks for the question!

My life has become happier than I could have imagined. 13 years of marriage to a woman who's heart wasn't ever really into it may seem like a waste of time (for both of us) but I don't feel that way.

I learned a LOT over those 13 years. What to do. What NOT to do. What to look for, what to overlook...


As far as my situation, I am now engaged to the same girl I've been talking about previously. We have a date set for this June.

I know it sounds cliche', but I couldn't be happier. I couldn't feel more loved. I couldn't feel more optimistic about my future.

She has proven over the last two years that, if you started out as friends, you may have something more than just friendship in store.

Remember, I've known my fiancee' for over 17 years. It's really a heartwarming story looking back....except for the rocky divorce.

Anyhow, just chiming in to say I'm doing fine.

And once again I'll say that even though I may not agree with everyone here, or even Dr. H, I owe a lot of how I've changed (for the better) to this site and Dr. H's advice.

Have a great New Year everyone!

Glad to hear you are doing well

Got married June 28th, 2014.

There is life after divorce, and sometimes in life, it's best to move on and be thankful for what you still have. Family. Love. Life itself.

I'm a very happy man and any help I could provide from here will be given generously.

Thank you, MB, for helping me set the stage for a strong and lasting marriage!

Congratulations!

Congratulations.

Does your wife know about MB?

Yes. She knows about MB.

She's grateful for MB too. She's learned a thing or two since I showed it to her.

We are both very happy, and if there's one takeaway from all this, it's COMMUNICATION. Without open lines of communication, just about any relationship is doomed to failure.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

For those of you who know AndyM's plight, rest assured he's doing OK also. He's now divorced and dating a wonderful new woman.

Take care, all!

Now just plan B your ex wife and you'll be in heaven!