�I am not pops, nor do I speak for him

I am , however, in his position - sort of.�

Sort of not. You did not have the affair and produce an OC for your H to accept as his as part of the price for recovering the marriage.

�I am, btw, a believer in NC. I do, on the other hand, know others who have made C work. My belief in NC is a selfish belief that I matter most. At some point, I had to wake up and realize that the OC didn't ask for this, either.
Also, for me to say "choose me over the kid" is not in my nature.�

Noble to say and do so.

�So, in short, I am a NC believer who has C. In the end, it is messy for me personally, but I do feel that I have come out of this with more dignity than if I would have turned and ran.�

You were able to stay some can�t and need NC.

Why allow contact when it has been proven that contact increases the odds that an affair will restart?

Why risk another OC?

What would you do if tonight your WH comes home and during diner the OWH calls to say that your WH knocked up his WW again?

What would you do?

What would your position be on exceptions to NC?

�As far as pops allowing OM to coach his kids, etc.. that's a long story. But food for thought tells me, that my own children were not once told they could not go somewhere or do something if I thought there was a chance that MOW or her kids would be there. To me, that was punishing my children, who did nothing wrong.�

So you do not see a learning value that there are certain types of people one must stay away from?

�Piece of the hurt pie to tell them no? Yeah, maybe...but guess what? Their father was a willing participant in this mess. Those that call the OM/OW the interloper are forgetting that. I suppose if you want to make it equal across the board, I could have prevented them from being around their father or ever speaking to the brother that the entire world knows they have.�
Forget nothing. Tell the kids that the WS baked this hurt pie. Another learning experience. There are consequences in life.

�Can we just say that this is truly the hardest thing to deal with in infidelity? It's also very hard to have others who have never lived through it tell you how wrong you are for making something work.�

Sort of because you can always make any story worse.

'

Eibrab, I would ask you to rethink this premise because it really doesn't make sense when you think it through. It is not punishing your children to keep them away from the OW, but protecting them. Observing no contact with the OW is the best protectant from the affair, which is the greatest threat to your marriage. Your marriage is the foundation of security and safety and well being for your children. Exposing them to the OW is to expose YOU and your H to the OW which is a foolish risk to your marriage and to their family.

We tell children all the time over on the SAA forum that they can't associate with the OP or his/her children, and that is not "punishment," it is protection. Children completely understand the reasoning. They usually have more common sense about this stuff than their parents.

Also, exposing your children to the OW sends them the message that you endorse your H's affair partner and endorse that continued association. That is a terrible message to send to children. It is morally confusing to children to see their parents endorsing adultery partners.

So, I would urge you to rethink your stance about bringing your children around your H's affair partner. That is not good for anyone in your family.

That doesn't make any sense. Their father is their father and always will be. The OW is not related to them and therefore, has absolutely no reason to associate with them. The presence of the OW endangers their parent's marriage so it makes no sense to continue that relationship or to pretend that their father is the equivalent of an OW. He is not.

Saying they are "equal" and somehow entitled to the same treatment completely overlooks the obvious: that their continued contact is dangerous. IT is dangerous to your marriage and dangerous to your children's family.

Having a relationship with their father is inherently healthy and productive; any dealings with an OW is a negative, unhealthy presence and a direct threat to their security and well being. Why play chicken with the well being of your children?

"""�""""As far as pops allowing OM to coach his kids, etc.. that's a long story. """""""""

Roads you have that backwards. OM never coached or will coach my kids. He!! he won't even coach his own kids.

it is ME who coaches oc

it was my son who was coaching at the hs when om's son tried out and made the team. therefore MY son coached om's son

I stand corrected, thank you.

to answer sugarcane's why question. i can be wordy but i'll try and cut down. (hahahahaha yeah right)

before i met fullhouse ( aka fh = my w)i had gotten an old gf preg. we went oour separate ways and she met someone else

i was willing to let that relationship go and never see my son. listening to a very popular radio mc at the time she said that with the exceptin of abuse (real abuse) that it is always in the best interest for children to know there bio parents.

it had been proven thru studies that life long resentments were formed by these children who were subject to this type of rejection

that's when i formed my personal opinion that i had to be part of my sons life. and so it has been since 1974. and well worth it. i now have 3 beautiful grandchildren because i forged that relationship.

fast forward to december 2001 and my w has her oc. still raising 5 children and having lost my dad (my mom passed away in 1972)in january of 01 from coronary artery failure (then just called heart attack).

we had been trying to figure out where we were headed and everything i had asked from of her was flat out rejected. FTR i had asked her to either abort or place the child for adoption.

with my family health history in mind, finances were and had always been tight with the large family, and knowing fh would need all the help she could get to raise this family should something happen to me that would either take me away or render me disabled i put cs on the table as a condition of working thru the marriage.

since that time i have been in the cath lab 3 times having 3 stents placed. 1st time (4/06) was thru the emergency door, 2nd (4/07) was a walk in and the 3rd (11/08) was a next day after i failed a tread mill test miserably

the other big part of the puzzle and maybe on a par with my health concerns was that so many choices had been taken out of my hands with my w's decisions i felt i had to have something or i was gone.

before coming to MB i had already made the decision that D was the ultimate outcome for us. she was still in the fog and i had had my fill at her 2 1/2 month A (never did and still don't know how some of the saints here get thru ws's year long A's) i had spoken to attorneys and had already filled out the D papers. all i had to do was go down and file. that's when i found MB and put the paperwork in the file cabinet.

had she not agreed to cs it would have been the straw that broke my will

there were other less important reasons but they still played a part of my choices

not wanting to raise my com at the time in 2 homes as i did with my oldest son

my deep down belief that children should know their bio parents,

the fact that i had met my responsibility by paying cs for 18 years and felt om should be responsible that way also as i felt all parents should be,

the fact that i could not get an honest answer out of fh at the time to whether she thought om would seek visitation or not,

that i did not truly understand the difference between a 2 home family with a divorced or out of wedlock child vs an oc. to me they were just 2 family kids

why i didn't move away. i own my own business drywall/steel framing subcontractor and have spent years building a client base to to try and feed and house my family. i quit contracting in the early 90's and went to work for someoone else. we nearly lost everything so i went back to contracting. it took nearly a year to get some of the old generals back and buld up the client list again.

I had never run from my problems. i have always stood tall and faced them head on. the old analogy of "you can run but you can't hide" rang out in my head. besides my rational was that my w was the problem and even if i ran she would have come with me.

i felt and truly believed that my w was remorseful for her actions and was willing to work on repairing our marriage.

since we did not move away my #6 child (dd) ended up attending hs with om's son. they had a class or 2 together thru the 4 years. i noticed one day that she was acting kinds wierd so i sat down with her to chat. it came out that she was worried that "I" would be upset if i knew they were in the same class. i explained to her that she had nothing to fear from me.

hope this wasn't too long and that i didn't leave anything out

also ftr, fh and i go to pick up oc 99% of the time together. it is me that goes to the door. sometimes i just can't go due to work. and of that 99% of the time with oc being nearly 9 (she would kill me if i said she was only 8) om never comes to the door. oc knows when it's time for us to come and she answers the door.

om picks oc up from school

i know it has been suggested that if i can't be there that we should get a mediator to do the pickup and have om pay for it. i am assuming (and everyone knows how to spell [censored]-u-me) that they have not been around the court system much lately and have no clue as to how many rights the ALL fathers are getting these days

I mean no disrespect, but I don't understand your answer, pops.

You said

"If my w had gone complete NC and followed the mb principles to the T we would be divorced today regardless of dr harley's principles. guaranteed."

Those principles mean NC between your wife and OM, and NC between OM and OC. I still don't understand why you think that these measures would have left you divorced.

I asked,

"Why do you believe this, pops? What would have been worse in your marriage with NC?"

I did not see a clear answer in your explanation.

Are you saying that your wife would not have forgiven you for making her NC with OM and the marriage would have failed

or

Are you saying that you would not have forgiven her for not claiming CS? Would you have left because of that?

None of this answers her question, though. She asked you WHY you said this:


And you answered with a long, convoluted post about why it was bad for a child to not know his bio parent... huh? She asked WHY you would not be married if your W had gone strict no contact with the OM. The issue was never about contact with the child.

So I will ask again: WHY do you say that you would be divorced today if you followed NC? [which is somewhat ironic given that your marriage is shaky and on the verge of collapse using your own plan]

Do you know what Dr Harley would say to that? If your W won't end contact with her lover, you should be divorced. Or do you believe in marriage at all costs? Because Dr Harley sure doesn't. There is no virtue in staying in a crippled, abusive marriage. The goal here at MB is not just staying married, it is creating a GREAT marriage.

Have you read any of the studies about life long resentments from children of divorce? What you did by maintaining contact with the OM was threaten your own marriage, which would have directly affected 6 children.

Your marriage, by your own admission, is very shaky and you were just discussing separation 2 months ago. The inclusion of the OM in your lives has made recovery of your marriage impossible. You can deny that this is the source, but that is not believable to anyone who understands the effect of an OP on a marriage. Dr Harley states that recovery is impossible unless no contact is observed and, gee willikers, that is exactly what happened.

So, I find it amazing that you sacrificed the security and well being of 6 children for the POTENTIAL future resentment of an OC. That is so irrational that it takes my breath away.

pops, I find so many of your explanations so implausible that it makes me think there is another reason behind all this. When someone goes to these lengths to make such bizarre rationalizations about such breathtakingly bad judgment there is usually some underlying reason. I wonder what it is and I don't know you well enough to understand the reasons.

b/c of my family health history i felt very strongly that fh would need as much help financially as possible in the event of tragedy. this meant all income possible to help support my com. the cs, with which came the possibility of visitation and minimal c, was something i felt she would need.

please comprehend the above statement correctly before trying to parse out 17 words. i did not say she needed c. only cs

as much as i didn't want D i was ready to leave if i didn't feel i was able to make some form of input with the choices being made in my life at the time. i was at my breaking point and nc meant no cs which meant again no control of my life

i felt it also meant she was rejecting me to protect om

if those were her intentions i would have left

at that time i felt i was at the end of my rope

also please remember that we were complete nc for not exactly sure but maybe 5 years before we started going to what is a very minimal c situation

Melody and TheRoad..

I think you both took my meaning as if my children spent time with the MOW. They do not and never have. However, what I meant and what has happened is that I have not once said to them..you cannot go to the friday night football game because MOW might be there. I have not made my children lose one bit of the life they lead out of fear of running into this woman or her children. I simply cannot fathom telling my son that he cannot play a sport in this community because the MOW's son might try out for that team. I'm truly not certain how you can even say that this behavior means that I condone what has happened.

What it means to me is that the mistake and actions of others does not define or own me...or my COM. That's all.

In no way have my children ever spent time with MOW.

Who isn't MOW anymore.. she is divorcing and living with a man who was her OM #who knows..

Eibrab

melody i never said my marriage is very shaky refering to anything having to do with om, oc, c or nc.

i said my marriage was "far from perfect". and i explained what i was referring to when i said that.

can you honestly say anyone has a "perfect" marriage?

the only one saying my marriage is on the rocks and failing is you.

heck even the infamous dr phil says his marriage is not perfect

trust me melody my childrens security and well being was never sacrificed. and never did the future resentment of the oc come into the equation. never

I KNOW WHERE YOU STAND ON NC. YOU KNOW WHERE I STAND ON NC IN OUR HOME. CAN WE JUST LIVE ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE FENCE?

show me where i have ever given anyone advice to make the same choices i made in my life i have NEVER advised anyone to to that. never.

I also have always said that the road we took is a very difficult one with lots of potholes.

instead of pulling out small parts and attacking try comprehending the entire thought. you pulled out the separation part 2 months back but left out the

"""""my marriage has managed to survive 10 years since our d day. is it whole and we are still a family but it is far from perfect""""""""

The Road..

Don't think that hasn't crossed my mind. However, doesn't that very same thing cross any BS's mind?

Isn't a marriage that has recovered from an A subject to the "you do this again and my stance changes" deal?

Eibrab

""""""I think you both took my meaning as if my children spent time with the MOW. They do not and never have. However, what I meant and what has happened is that I have not once said to them..you cannot go to the friday night football game because MOW might be there. I have not made my children lose one bit of the life they lead out of fear of running into this woman or her children. I simply cannot fathom telling my son that he cannot play a sport in this community because the MOW's son might try out for that team. I'm truly not certain how you can even say that this behavior means that I condone what has happened.

What it means to me is that the mistake and actions of others does not define or own me...or my COM. That's all.""""""

Eibrab,

EXACTLY

pops, here is what you said on this forum just 2 short months ago:

On the thread "DNA test or not?" 26 September 2010:


That is a marriage that is not in recovery, pops. You have been here 10 years and are not in recovery. Just as Dr Harley states. Anyone who understands the dynamics of adultery could tell you that a WS who still in touch with her lover is in a state of perpetual withdrawal which precludes an emotional investment in the marriage. You don't apparently understand this or even the concept of trust and boundaries. Yet you have been here 10 years.

Dr Harley is expected to produce his credentials when he offers advice to others. His own marriage and his track record of saving marriages
should be considered when we consider his advice. It is the same with YOU. When you presume to contradict Dr Harley, then we should similarly scrutinize your own marriage and your track record. So far you have nothing to show for your own plan. Dr Harley has a great marriage and thousands of saved marriages under his belt.


Its not "surviving" too well when you were talking about separation 2 months ago. Just being together is not success. But this comment above is what concerns me the most. It seems your measure of success is simply staying together. A marriage at all costs. That is your definition of success. But that is not Marriage Builder's definition of success. A successful marriage by Dr Harley's standard is a safe, affair proofed marriage where the spouses are in love. Just living together is not a success if the spouses are unhappy and taking foolish risks with their marriage.

But like I said before, it is your marriage, not mine. You are free to do anything you want. But you are not free to come on Dr Harley's forum and prevent newcomers from getting accurate, effective information about how to save their marriages. Its one thing to make marriage wrecking decisions with your own marriage but another thing entirely to advocate that same bad advice to others on a forum provided by Dr Harley.


Just as long as you stay on your side of the fence when a despairing, confused newcomer shows up on this board. We have a deal?

A marriage is much less likely to have a recurring affair when all contact is ended. When the affair partners are still in touch, their feelings are perpetually triggered, which is naturally most likely to lead to an affair. This is why Dr Harley is ADAMANT that all contact end for life, even if one must move to another state.

I have never known - in 10 years - any marriage that recovered while the affair partners were still in contact. Most of those affairs turned into years of on again, off again affairs. The marriage never did recover any semblance of romantic love because the affair was always kept top of mind.

It is sort of like a recovering alcoholic. Who do you imagine is more likely to recover and avoid relapses? The alcoholic who hangs out in bars or the ones who take extraordinary precautions to avoid alcohol? It is just simple common sense, Eirab. It is not rocket science .

You are kidding, right? Have you not thought through the logical conclusion of such sloppy boundaries for your children? Lets say your son is on the same team as the OW's son? What would that lead to? Obviously that would mean YOU and your H would end up in the same stands as the OW, which would be a breach of nc. So of course you would tell your son he cannot play on a team where the OW's child is involved unless there is an arrangement to keep the OW away, which is unrealistic.

Eirab, a child's sport game is of minor importance when compared to the health of your marriage. You don't sacrifice the health of your marriage for a child's sport. Any contact with the OW - from either you or your H - is harmful and risky to your marriage. It is in your child's best interest to have an intact family with happily married parents. Why would you take such risks?

It seems to me that since your H's affair produced an OC, that you would take more care to protect your marriage. But it seems from this that you actually take LESS. That is asonishing to me.

This is what you posted to a newcomer on our board:

here

This led to a huge debate on a newcomers thread. Regular posters were put in a position of having to defend Marriage Builders from your dreadful, marriage wrecking advice. This caused unncessary dissension and debate on a newcomers thread whose life was in turmoil. This poster came to MB to get help from MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Not to get the personal opinion of someone who doesn't know how to save his own marriage.

So yes, you did give bad advice to a newcomer, pops. And you weren't doing that newcomer any favors.

The purpose of this forum is Marriage Builders. It is not a platform for our own agendas. Our own best thinking screwed up our marriages.

my dear melody, you have quoted my staements on my marriage more times then i can count. you refuse to read back just today when i explained those statements

understand and try and get this idea into your head.

THE SEPARATION I SPOKE OF 2 MONTHS BACK THAT YOU KEEP REFERING TO WERE DUE TO STRESS FROM HEALTH ISSUES AND FINANCIAL PROBLEMS. THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OM, OC, C OR NC.

i will NOT address this issue with you again

Hypothetically, what happens if your H comes home and tells you that his ow walked up to him in the store and said hello?

do you automatically fear his renewal of the A due to C?

Do you live in that fear?

how can you say you have a happily recovered marriage if you live in that fear?

where's the trust of your happily recovered H?

Honestly I don't care about the hypothetical situation or the answer to my questions

you see your h's ow was nothing special. she was just there at the right time. it could happen with anyone. either you trust your h again or you don't.

AND I UNDERSTAND BOUNDARIES.

And if your alcoholic is at the beach and someone walks by with a beer does he run for the hills?

some contact is inevitable

it's what you do about it that matters

hey melody,

i don't recall your situation.

can you refresh my memory?

do you have an oc?

People in a recovered marriage don't separate over health and financial issues. And that is my point. As Dr Harley so aptly says, continued contact with an affair partner makes recovery impossible. I don't think you understand how your WW's continued contact wiht her affair partner has effected your marriage.


Of course we do. Because we understand the danger. We have done everything possible to avoid such contact. The fact you don't fear such contact is more of an indication of your lack of understanding. Anyone who is not fearful of such contact doesn't understand the nature of the affair.

here


No, because we safeguard our marriage and ensure there is not contact. We live with sane boundaries.


Don't you need to have a happily recovered marriage before you lecture others on having a happily recovered marriage?



It is not lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Having too much trust leads folks to the same kind of foolish risks you take in your marriage. Your trust is foolhardy. Here is what Dr Harley says about "trust"

here


Of course I don't trust him. What I do trust are boundaries. It was too much trust that led to your wife's affair and my H's affair.


No, this is not true, contact is not inevitable. Many, many people never have contact with their OP again because they take steps to ensure they don't. My H has had no contact in 10 years. You, on the other hand take no steps whatsoever which present a foolish risk to your marriage.

The bottom line, pops, is that this forum is here to help folks learn Dr Harley's principles, not our own personal philosphies. You cause harm to newcomers when you substitute your own personal opinion for Dr Harley's tried, true and professional opinion. That is the height of arrogance.

No, I am a BS and my H did not have an OC..

""""""""" You cause harm to newcomers when you substitute your own personal opinion""""""""""""

again show me where i ever advised anyone to follow my choices.



"""""""""""No, I am a BS and my H did not have an OC..""""""""


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but no matter how hard you want to try and say they are the same when you add the oc to the A it changes the dynamics enormously

don't believe me? try walking in Eibrab's, FF's, Delean's or Lebelle's shoes

i don't see where asking a question qualifies as a lecture

and i love the little picture of you that you keep including. is that a lazy eye condition?

""""""""In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure."""""""

here's another shocker. not everyone can financially afford a move to another state.

also many courts will prevent that move once an OC is involved

again it's not black and white

***edit***

good night

PLEASE!

Can we PLEASE stick to MarriageBuilders principles & concepts when offering suggestions and advice to newcomers? Or to those still struggling?

Newcomers are here to learn Dr Harley's MarriageBuilders Program. Members should not have to debate the advantages of following this path with other members that have used another road, distracting from the original new poster's situation.

Newbies have enough chaos & confusion in their life without adding more by offering conflicting advice.

Do I need to post it again for you? I would be glad to do it.
You posted on a newcomers thread telling her nc was not essential and even chastised other members as having "myopic arrogance" for posting a very basic MB concept.


I agree. But you and I both know you don't understand the first thing about those dynamics because you don't understand how dangerous contact is to your marriage. Instead of taking less risks, you take more. The result is an unrecovered marriage that is at risk of a resumed affair. A marriage that is on the verge of separation, btw.



Oh yes it certainly is. Did you listen to Dr Harley's radio show today? He is very black and white when it comes to ending all contact with the affair partner in OC situations. You are grey, he is black and white. Shall we compare your track records?

pops

I don't remember on which post it was. What I remember was that you and your WW where in a low spot. WW was tired of dealing with the OM. Tired enough that her being dragged down was dragging you with her.

Enough to make you anwser my question that if you could do it over now you would of went NC with the OM to avoid having to deal with the OM now.

I wish I could find that post now.

pops

Your OC is 9 and would appreciate how she has learnt about the OM being her dad, what she has learnt, how she has reacted to you not being her dad while you where still married to her mom prior to her conception.

How old when did she found out?

At what age did visitation start with OM?

As a 9 year old does OC understand what an affair is, what her mom and OM did to you?

Does she ever need to discuss the situation?

What is her take on the situation?

ML..

Respectfully, you are suggesting that my children pay the price for a deed their father chose to do. No one has ever walked up to MOW and greeted her.

No, it isn't rocket science. It's a small town, and I will not allow my children to wear a badge of shame over something their father did.

A teenage boy's sport may be of small importance to you, but to him..it is the world.

Dignity comes into play here..trust me..it seems as if attending these things is harder on my H as he feels the shame of everyone knowing. Oh, and the more we "came out" of the hiding that you suggest we should have maintained..the more the MOW went in. Now, she isn't ever seen in public.

This is my world, too.. not just the world of those that did this.

I believe in MB and the NC, but I do not believe that NC means we hide.

I do appreciate your opinions,
Eibrab

Eibrab, your children will pay a much bigger price if they are not protected from that risk.
His parent's marriage is "the world." A divorce would rock his world; missing a sport would soon be forgotten. We have had many kids, even teenagers, have to drop out of sports for this very reason. It didn't hurt them. But what would have hurt them is if their parents had divorced over a resumed affair. That is just a foolish risk, eibrab.

For those of you who don't understand the risks of no contact, please take the time to listen to Dr Harley's radio show from yesterday. It will rebroadcast until 1:00 cst today and then you can get it from archives. He discusses this very issue of contact with the OP when there an OC involved.

Some of Dr Harley's quotes about the importance of no contact:
Entire article here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

If anyone is interested, here is the radio show link where Dr Harley discusses NC with an OP when there is an OC - after 11-23 it can be found in the 11-22-10 archives: here. Folks need to know that Dr Harley is VERY black and white about this issue. There are no fuzzy gray areas when it comes to no contact.

Not to me. I now have a freshman student playing a varsity sport, who works hard to maintained a 4.8 gpa so that he can be a scholarship recipient.

ML, THAT's his life...not running from his father's bad judgement.



I have explained to you that my COM have no dealing with the XMOW. But, I will not ask them to hide or hinder their lives out of fear of running into her. If they do run into her, they can keep on running..just not OVER her, lol.

I asked an 82 year old respected priest once how I should handle a chance meeting with XMOW. He told me that very same thing... keep on walking, you don't owe her a thing "don't say hi, but don't slap her either."

I can't imagine saying to my teenage COM..we can't go there, because if we do and we see XMOW or dad should see XMOW, well that means he's going to leave us again...

Guess what? He can go. E doesn't put her kids dreams in the toilet because their father put his fantasies somewhere else.

I've done alot wrong..and in coming here and sharing what has worked and has not, I may help someone from making the same mistake.


I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but to say I am foolish doesn't hold much credence in this category. That said, I respect your opinion and will leave it at that.

Eibrab

BUT....you didn't consult a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in such situations; one who has a 40 year track record of saving 1000's of marriages. And that is the problem. We have seen affairs take off time and time again because no contact was not observed. And it is your life to ruin, Eirab, that is your right. You have every right to take foolish risks with your marriage.


Just as long as you don't peddle your own dangerous views about no contact to newcomers here at Marriage Builders. People come here to learn about Marriage Builders, not our own risky personal philosophies. We have to remember that this forum is for Marriage Builders. Sugarcane put it best yesterday to another poster over on SAA:

Can you explain to me where you are coming up with all this C? And did you miss the part where I stated that I sought counsel?

If I sit my high school freshman son down tonight after his basketball scrimmage and explain to him that he must drop out of public high school and leave this team that he earned a spot on tonight to become home schooled and that he cannot participate in any recreational activities for fear of XMOW and/or her children may be in the same 300 foot gym... oh and my daughter, who is in her first year of an academic scholarship to a public university not far from here, that she must drop out because there is a state highway that runs by the college and XMOW or her family may be driving down that highway someday..

Will you then stop calling me foolish?

Btw, to all.. I realize that the above paragraph may hold the record here at MB for a run-on sentence.. I apologize.

ML, I choose to live.

What other aspects of OC life interest you? I'd be happy to answer any questions because you have not lived this..I know it can be confusing. Just please be respectful and stop calling me foolish.

The lesson I choose to represent, which in no way, contradict's any MB teaching is a simple one. You can make it through this. You will survive. I am not advocating anything else.

Eibrab

E,

I don't believe at this point ML is saying you need to change what you are doing. I believe from reading this exchange that she is asking that you, pops, myself and anyone else with C continue to advise people HERE on MB that NC is the right path to healing your M after an A.

I would not visit my messy life upon anyone, not even my worst enemy. I don't post here as often as I used to however I do maintain that Dr. H is absolutely correct that NC is the best way. Your stubborn H and mine left us with little choice in the matter. It was either break up the homes of our COM or live with someone else's rotten choices.

Yes, actually you did contradict MB when you said this:


you posted this on the thread of a newcomer who came here seeking Marriage Builders advice:


And then a moderator came on the thread and asked the posters to stick to Marriage Builders. And I did not call YOU foolish, but rather your advice that contact is sometimes ok. It is not ok and that is a foolish, risky path that can't be defended.

Anyway, I would just point you to the thread at the top of this forum about sticking to Marriage Builders principles if you are going to post here. Other posters should not have to spend their time debating bad advice when newcomers come here for help.

Exactly! Newcomers come here to get Marriage Builders advice. I well know that people play chicken and survive, but is it wise to tell others that playing chicken is a good thing?? Of course not! It is irresponsible.

Eirab, the fact that I or Dr Harley "has not lived this" does not mean that Dr Harley is wrong about maintaining no contact. He is ADAMANT about no contact and has saved many marriages over his career. He is a professional with a long successful track record and you are not in any position to dispute his tried and true advice. In fact, if you want to know how it is done correctly, I would strongly suggest you go download his radio segment from yesterday, 11-22 on this very subject.

I cannot begin to count the affairs that resumed over and over again from ignoring this step. Why you would advise anyone to follow that path is beyond my comprehension.

But the bottom line is that what is posted on the thread at the top of this forum: stick to Marriage Builders concepts when you post to others or refrain from posting.

ML..

If you read the quote from me that you copied and pasted, it distinctly says that I am a NC believer who has C.

I have not ever advocated C in any way.

You have waged this personal agenda to show me that I have C because I live in the same community as my H's OW.

At what point are you coming up with my advice to play chicken?

Because I didn't run?

ML, I have a feeling that you have a personal need to always be right. It is not my intention to prove you wrong here.

It is my sole intention to show anyone out there suffering that you can survive this and you do not have to hide in a hole for the rest of your life because of it.

What's that line in "Elf" ? "Go ahead and call me an elf one more time, my friend ".. lol, go ahead and keep calling me foolish if it makes you feel better.

Respectfully,

Eibrab

Oh for pete�s sake Melody Lane? Where are you getting that I am advising C?

Will you please stop this ?

I am going to try and refrain from posting to you anymore because I think you are intent on twisting my words. Odd..

Foolishly,

Eibrab

Actually you did. You posted this to a newcomer on our board:


S

Eirab, I have already proven you wrong. I don't have a need to be right, I am right about no contact. Anyone who says that a little contact is right is simply.......wrong. And you can't defend it. I have been on this board for 10 years and have seen untold affairs start up again from ignoring Dr Harley's advice about nc. So why would you advise newcomers to ignore that sound advice? Because you have a vested interest in ignoring no contact?

And yes, I do have an agenda. My agenda is to help people save their marriages using Marriage Builders concepts. My agenda is to stop you from using Dr Harley's board to mislead newcomers with risky, foolish advice. If you aren't going to help newcomers learn Marriage Builders, then you might want to do what the moderators said and that is refrain from posting to newcomers.

Here is what you posted to a newcomer on this forum:

Originally Posted By: TheRoad
No.

And don't have to have one to know that there needs to be NC with the OP.

here

Mel,

You keep drilling down that it is NC or nothing. NC is certainly the effective way of ending the affair, but it does not mean the WS doesn't have OP in their mind for years, which is why NC is a lifetime sentence.

But, Harley also is not a marriage at all costs person. His own recommendation with an OC is divorce if there are no other children.

I know you have question Pop's thoughts about economics with regard to CS but frankly his thinking is very very good. He had his children foremost in his mind even more than his marriage which was on the ropes. His health would mean that likely there would be more "mouths to feed" with less money if they did not seek CS. CS meant OC was taken care of and his children of marriage would have more as well.

I don't see how you don't see that. I also recall that his W did not want to take CS from the OM and Pop's thinking she was trying to protect OM and his family. He decided he would protect his family first and not worry about OM.

Now please tell me how protecting your children is a violation of MB. Please tell me how CS was a violation of MB. Please tell me how he could oppose a court order for contact if CS was granted.

Sadly the courts don't follow MB and "common sense" isn't very common, but I continue to believe that OC in the mix makes these situation much more difficult than the standard affair and there are fewer "clear" paths to follow.

Whether Pops or anyone else wants it or not, when an OC comes into being families are mixed or a child is left behind. THis saddens me greatly and if I knew the "ironclad" way to address it, I would surely enlighten the world.



God Bless,

JL

PS: Newbies need to adequately appraised of different approaches and the relative effectiveness. MB is the best way, but it is sometimes cannot address all situations...nothing can.

Of course I do. And so does Dr Harley.


I have never questioned his plan to get CS and understand his reasoning. That is not my point of contention. The point of contention is the continued contact with his WW and her OP and his advocacy of same to newcomers on this board. When someone claims to be concerned about his children, and I have no doubt he does care about them very much, then that should lead him to take extra care to PROTECT his marriage. That is the main source of his kid's security. Sure, they need financial support, but more than that they need their parents to have an intact, secure, happy marriage.<----THAT is protecting your children.

But exposing his marriage to his WW's continued contact with her OP is NOT protecting his children, it is putting their well being at risk.

This continued contact between his WW and the OP presents a great risk to the marriage that he doesn't seem to comprehend. I don't think he took that into account when he agreed to allow his WW and OP to continue contact. THAT is the greater threat to his kid's security. He could have easily gone after CS but avoided direct contact with the OP. He didn't do that.

That is all Dr Harley recommends. You and I both know that continued contact with affair partners is a disaster, just as Harley states. We have seen the results of affairs partners who didn't end contact for years on this website. It is a disaster.

It's one thing to ignore Dr Harley's advice about NC yourself [speaking of pops], but its quite another to advise newcomers to take the same foolish risks and then to chastise posters as "myopically arrogant" for recommending Dr Harley's own advice. uuuuuh nooooooo ... That is the crux of my problem, and it is also the problem of Marriage Builders according to Justuss' post in the announcement section and on this very thread.

In pops situation, MB most certainly does address his situation and provide a solution. Dr Harley is very clear about the issue of nc and discussed it yesterday on the radio - nc with an OP in an OC situation.

Newbies come here to be apprised of the Marriage Builders approach, not the personal philosophies of those who have no expertise and have not solved their own marriage problems. Offering up different principles - as in this case - only causes confusion and prevents the newcomer from finding viable solutions in a time of despair. Nor should board members be put in the position of having to DEFEND Marriage Builders on MB when people in crisis come here for help. That is a distraction to everyone.

Dr Harley pays for this board to help people with HIS program, not the unqualified, unprofessional personal opinions of those who only know how to screw up their marriages.

The moderator made a thread at the top of this forum and, as guests on this forum, we have an obligation to respect and abide the board policy:

I have read this from a few posters here, but never from Dr Harley. Can anyone provide a citation for this?

I think that something Dr Harley never said is fast becoming established as fact on here.

This is what I have found from Dr Harley on OC situation with no other children:

There are many important issues to consider in deciding your future together. If your daughter were your only child, and if your wife were still in love with her ex-lover, who happened to be single and wanted to marry her, I would lean toward encouraging you to divorce. But since she is the mother of your two children, no longer loves her ex-lover, and wants to save her marriage, I would encourage you to remain married and raise all three children together.

What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes Pregnant with a Lover's Child

There are 4 "ifs" there:

If this is the only child AND

If the wife were still in love with OM AND

If he were single AND

If he wanted to marry her

THEN Dr Harley would lean toward encouraging divorce.

He would encourage this if all 4 "ifs" were present and NOT simply if OC was the only child.

What you just described sounds like he overrode his wife's wishes. Was this POJA'd, or did she capitulate?


I agree that people in these situations need to consider the relative worth of different approaches. The Marriage Builders forum is a school for learning the Marriage Builders approach. There are bookstores, libraries, a myriad of counselors, and an entire internet for exploring alternative approaches.

This is why I came to this forum. I wanted to learn Dr. Harley's way to do it and apply it to my marriage. I stayed away from this forum for years because any time I peeked at it it seemed like it was used for airing all kinds of different counseling approaches, many of which were contradictory to the Marriage Builders concepts.

It took me years to GET this program because a) I am slow on the uptake and b) no one on the forum was actually using the program in its entirety because very few people understood it enough to achieve the goal of MB: romantic love. We talked about everything EXCEPT Marriage Builders on the forum. We were usually distracted with endless posts about specific conflicts. The conversation never turned to building the skills necessary to resolve those conflicts, and never to the stated purpose of creating romantic love. The definition of success was little more than just staying married.

That all changed for me in 2006 when the MB radio show began. I was AMAZED at how dramatically different the program was from the general understanding on the board. Now, you see lots of people on the board in truly recovered, happy, romantic marriages. The definition of success evolved from just avoiding divorce to truly happy, romantic marriages. Its sad that so many marriages were lost over the years because of this lack of focus.

Thankfully, the board has evolved into a learning place, rather than an aimless chat forum where personal opinions reign supreme; the personal opinions of those who screwed up their marriages.

>I am right about no contact. Anyone who says that a little contact is right is simply.......wrong.

You are absolutely correct, Mel. NC is the ONLY clear cut path to recovery.

Anything else extends the pain and worry.

We have very limited C with the OW because we have custody of the OCs (of which there would only have been one if there was NC from the beginning).

It has taken YEARS of hard work to even reach a modicum of comfort within my own house because of that teeny bit of contact that we have on the off month (yes, month) that the OW exercises her right to visitation. Even now, I will not look at that person because of the upset she causes when my children come home. She knocks on MY door and I kiss the children and send them out...I've not spoken to her in 3 years or so (when she told me that *I* ruined her life because *I* didn't leave my husband and other gems).

Contact only makes this horrible situation even more nightmarish.

I will not advocate contact with the OC unless there were reasons that the child should not be with the mother (like in my case).

Hi Dealan-de!! Thanks for the great post.

I so love you, Kimmy my friend!

E, I hope things are better in your world.

Wow!!!!

NC..... I heard it first on Oprah. Three days before d-day. It thought it made sense and that it was something I would never have to worry about.... 3 days later I was told by my FWH that he might have a four month old son.

NC is absolutely the way to go to heal the M, to rebuild it into a super fantastic R with romance and love. But, when you add in the OC the damn court system and some peoples needs to parent their children (wherever they came from) gets in the way of NC.

The courts require that you pay your CS that the OP send you bills from the dentist and the drug store, and oh yeah the OC now wants to take ballet and you need to pay that bill too! It isn't the same establishing NC when there is an OC. Fortunately for me, my FWH was willing to put me, COM, and M before all else (wish he had done that before the A!). But the courts will still require his presence, unless he wants to just agree to everything OW wants.

For those WS's that can't/won't walk away from their OC, the BS has to choose, do I stay for me, the M and the COM even with this C with OC, which causes C with OP or do I walk away, destroy the COM's life with D, and the WS gets to expose my COM to the OP when he has visitation with COM? This becomes "out of our control". Does any one advocate it? Hell NO!!! We would like it all to go away. I am sure that E would love the OW to pack her crap and get out of town. But she can't force her FWH to leave, and many cannot afford to pack and go.

While I am all for advocating 100% NC and living it if the courts would allow (by the way we moved 1500 miles away, thank God!), we also need to have compassion and support for those that circumstances force the C (knowing that it is not good) and help in devising ways to mitigate the damage to all involved. The COM suffer tremendously from these A's. NC ever with the OP or anyone associated with OP would be best, absolutely has the best chance of recovery. But, life sucks and we can't change it all, unless we choose to walk away sometimes.

Fled the State

"WOW!!" was exactly my reaction when I came over to this forum and saw old timers telling newcomers that nc is not that big of a deal! WOW!! I asked myself if I entered the twilight zone because I thought I was on Marriage Builders where the posters KNEW BETTER. Apparently not....

I don't know of any situations where a WS is "forced" to see the OP, that has sure not been the case here. I don't even know of any divorces without an OC where a X is "forced" to see his X-spouse. Rather it is a matter of not caring about taking precautions because the participants are ignorant of the risk. Which is fine. Folks are free to take whatever foolish risks they wish with their own marriage. It is their life. They can play chicken all day long if they want. But...they are not free to come here and tell newcomers that ending contact between the OP and the WS is not necessary. ummm no... That is in direct conflict with Dr Harley's clear guidelines about OC situations.

NC is absolutely critical to recovery, which is why we should help those in an OC situation find creative ways to achieve NC [with the OP]. We shouldn't be on here on telling people it is not important or that posters are "myoptically arrogant" for suggesting very basic steps towards recovery of the marriage. A marriage that has been hit by an affair AND an OC is even more vulnerable. Such a couple should take extraordinary precautions to protect the marriage for the sake of the COM!

I would also suggest to those that ignore the nc rule that you are risking a second pregnancy. It happened once and is very likely to happen again because a marriage that does not observe nc is not recovered, it is simply a crippled version of the pre-affair state. Which means it is MORE vulnerable, not less.

My preference is that we show some of that compassion you mention for newcomers on this forum and not mislead them into thinking they can recover their marriage while still in contact with the OP. They can't!! Just because we choose to not recover our own marriages by ignoring simple basic affair proofing tactics, does not mean we should be leading newcomers to a death of a thousand cuts too. That is NOT compassion!

The bottom line is that we need to stick to Dr Harley's principles and not subsitute our own personal opinion for his professional, tried and true expertise. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages, after all.

ML, I am certain that FTS is only meaning C with the OC and never the OP.
I will advocate for NC to the grave but do have a DF with a 16 yo OC, with C,
and with a happily recovered marriage. Plus in our own sessions with JH she firmly agrees with NC with the OP but was on the fence regarding NC with OC so we didn't counsel with her anymore since we are NC with OP and OC.

Go figure......

migs, you may be right. I just reread her post and see what you mean.

If so, Fled, the discussion at hand is NOT about contact with the OC but about contact between the WS and the OP. Some here have dismissed the absolute importance of no contact for life between affair partners. I fully understand and accept that many do choose to associate with the OC. While that is not something I would want for myself, I understand many do choose that for various reasons. And I fully support and respect those that do!

p.s. FledtheState, that was an awesome post you wrote on the newcomers thread!

Road sorry for the delay in answering this question

she was about 20 months when she had her 1st visitattion with her bio

it was her difficulty going for visits along with fh's until about 5 or 6'ish that led me to rethink the nc issue for oc. unfortunately by that time it was to late

so far all she knows is that she has 2 dads. and lots of bro's, sis's, aunt's and uncle's that all love her.

as far as i know she doesn't know or understand that she was conceived while her mom and i were married or that her bio was married to someone else at the time.

she may actually know. but maybe it hasn't sunken in to the point of questioning it

no she does not know what an A is as far as i know. and we have never discussed with her the hurt and pain that an A has on a BS. we feel that at her age telling her that her conception was the sorce of her daddy's great pain would give her enormous feelings of quilt.

here's an example: the other week i took her for a slupee after her soccer game. as always she got out of my door and started to close it. i stupidly reached back in for a paper on the dash and low and behold guess whose arm got smashed in the door.

several days later she saw the large bruise on my arm and asked what happened. when i explained she started crying saying she felt so quilty for hurting daddy

we don't want her to have those feelings about herself

every now and then she will ask a question like "why is my skin darker than her sister's?"

fh or i expalin it by saying she gets that from poppy (om). we don't go into geniology. we feel that deep science explaination would be over a 9 year olds head.

she thinks she is lucky to have 2 dads and more siblings then any other kid in school. i am sure at her age she views it as any other kid whose parents D and remarry.

we are in no rush to explain the hurt part of the A to her at this age. that will come as she grows into her teens and we start talking with her about boyfriends and one on one relationships

i have had that conversation with all of my older kids as they grew into the dating ages.

road i remember posting to you about that before but like youhave no idea where or when. so i will try and re-explain myself

up until oc was about 5 1/2 - 6 1/2 she had a difficult time going for visitations. obviously it was more so when she was younger and tappered of at around 6 1/2. she would often tell us that she was afraid to talk to om about some basic things b/c he would get mad at her.

this bothered fh and myself enormously.

having been thru the same thing (less the geting mad at him for discussing things)i had experienced the same thing with my oldest son and knew that within 5 minutes of leaving for her visits she would relax and have a good time. this was proved true b/c she always returned happy and said she had a good time.

still doesn't relieve the trama of her leaving each time

the other thing that led me to feel that way was that om was taking fh to court seemingly every 4 - 5 months. 19 times in 7 yearswith another date for sometime in january 2011

my w gets so worked up with this type of stuff b/c she hates digging out all the records and filling in new paperwork each time.

her anxietiey over this coupled with the the stress of the visitations is why i rethought nc with om and offered him the chance to just drop cs since that was his reason for taking her back to court every time and walk away forever.

"""""""""'While I am all for advocating 100% NC and living it if the courts would allow (by the way we moved 1500 miles away, thank God!), we also need to have compassion and support for those that circumstances force the C (knowing that it is not good) and help in devising ways to mitigate the damage to all involved. The COM suffer tremendously from these A's. NC ever with the OP or anyone associated with OP would be best, absolutely has the best chance of recovery. But, life sucks and we can't change it all, unless we choose to walk away sometimes.""""""""""""'

i will also say EXACTLY but for different reasons

while nc is most definatey the best way to handle recovery from an A. when an OC is brought into the picture it is not always practical or the only way. as much as some would like to think so

for some finances retsrict them from moving thousands of miles away just as it does with counseling with the Harley's.

some feel they can't afford an attorney and are trying to deal with this situation on their own. again not a wise choice but it happens

Also once cs and "visitation" is established many courts limit or restrict a custodial parent from moving out of normal driving distance.

many others don't have the funds to hire an independant to handle all contact and don't have family and close friends close enough or willings enough to commit to 18 years of minimum twice a week inconveniences from their own personal life to take on that task. remember that many don't even want anyone else (family or friends) to know of their situation let alone be involved

now while their are a great deal of people that come here to specifically learn the MB principles there are also many who come here for support b/c they have heard of a place that deals with their specific problem (A with OC) and they were feeling completely isolated with no place to turn (as in my own personal situation)

when a newbie comes to a "forum" such as this they most certainly need to hear the MB principles but they also need to here that if they feel they can not for any reason follow them completely that there is still hope for recovery

to have anyone post a banging their shoe on the table, demanding it's my way or the highway is exactly that "myopic and arrogant" and does NOT lend support to the newbie in distress who may and is still usually in the fog

another huge part of the A with OC problem vs just an A situation is whether the BS is a H or W. Go figure.

when a member simply states that they are recovered or in recovery and have not or were not able to follow every principle that does NOT mean they are trying to push and agenda.

the ONLY thing that means is they are trying to lend support to someone who is lost and confused and show them that there is always hope

How DARE you come on Dr Harley's board and contradict him and then chastise board members as "myopicaly arrogant" for dispensing proven, effective Marriage Builder's concepts? How arrogant of YOU. Is Dr Harley "myopicaly arrogant" for saying that NC is the only way? That is what he says, pops.

pops, there is no excuse for a WS to continue contact with an OP. NONE. And if you tell any newcomer that there is again, be assured, I will be notifying the moderators that you are violating the board policy by giving out dangerous, misleading advice. Recovery is impossible when there is contac t between the OP and the WS. I am not going to explain AGAIN why one HAS TO observe no contact with an OP, because I have done so over and over again to no avail - you still don't get it. You have been here for 10 years and still don't get it, so I don't think you ever will. Folks just need to look at the state of your marriage to see the result of your corner cutting. You are not in a recovered marriage yourself, so you can't very well help others achieve something you have not.

So I will just point you again to the board policy and warn that I will be reporting you to the moderators if you do it again.

Hopefully, we are clear as a bell on that point...

Bumping this up for pops...

�every now and then she will ask a question like "why is my skin darker than her sister's?"

�fh or i expalin it by saying she gets that from poppy (om). we don't go into geniology. we feel that deep science explaination would be over a 9 year olds head.�

An age appropriate answer. You didn�t lie, you told her the truth. Enough truth for now. She knows she has two dads. As she gets older she will put 2 and 2 together. When the light bulb comes on she will come and ask again seeking more depth.

I hope she asks you before the OM.

Then I read your second post and saw this:

�she would often tell us that she was afraid to talk to om about some basic things b/c he would get mad at her.�

What questions did the OM get mad at?

I think the OM did not accept your option to go NC after you offered it if you gave up CS because he lost your WW, sole custody of the OC, the OC spends most of the time in your house, and he would never get of the CS money he already spent back, then going NC after all these years you make OM look like an even bigger loser for turning his back on his OC after many years.

OM has made you his sworn enemy. He can no longer fight you on the mattress any more be he can make life hell by dragging you into court till OC hits 18, then maybe more if the court deems him responsible for her college education. Maybe the OM feels all the drama he can cause with continued contact can drive you and WW apart.

This I still say you should of fought for NC not CS.

Edit to add have a good thanksgiving.

Ok ml let me be perfectly clear

just as i do not live in fear of our op i do not live in fear of you reporting me to the moderators. if you feel i am in violation of any MB regulations or agreements then i say don't wait. report it and let them decide. they are wise people and i can live with their decision

I "DARE" b/c i believe that this is an "OPEN FORUM" where having been here for 10 years (such as yourself) and having lived through this specific situation of an A with OC and continue to do so and having seen many people leave this site and struggle on b/c of the harsh demanding opinions that i have valuable insight that can be both supportive and give them hope

that said i will not respond to you again on this topic

have a great Thankgiving and enjoy your family

The board administrator already DID decide when she posted on THIS THREAD. Did you not SEE Justuss' post on this thread? Can you READ? Did you not see the thread tacked to the top of this forum? Can you not read the board policy in the Announcement section? What more does it take to get through to you, pops?

This is not about a "feeling" I have, this is about stated BOARD POLICY. When you post conflicting advice to newcomers, you are in violation of board policy.

How many times does the Board Adminstrator have to post this in order for you to GET IT?

ml

have a great Thankgiving and enjoy your family

Same to you, pops! And I mean that sincerely.

"""""What questions did the OM get mad at?""""

not the serious questions you may be thinking. things like if the team decides to go for ice cream after a soccer game on his weekend and she asks to go he gets mad at her.

if she wants to go to back to school night on his weekday he gets mad at her.

really stupid stuff. but not from a 9 yo's eyes

i think he didn't accept the offer b/c we are so far down the road and he has other kids that have known oc for so many years. that would really make him look bad in their eyes if he could give up one kid he could give up another

you may be right on the hell by court idea. tho i think it is b/c he is so $$ greedy. he is always trying to cuut his cs to both fh and his now exw.

as an example when he D his ex after 20 years they had 3 cars. even tho they had a down syndrom dd he took all the cars b/c they were in his name and left her to fend for herself. then he faught her in court b/c she made a decent wage and got to where he only paid her something like $90 a month even tho she was the primary custody parent of their dd

road you are probably right about fighting for nc instead of cs. at the time i am sure i didn't separate the 2 and certainly felt i needed something to make me feel like my w was not protecting om

by the way my w did drag her feet on making choices, decisions and giving me accurate feed back on om's character (and i use that word very lightly)


you have a great Thanksgiving also and count all your blessings

pops,

I have sympathy for your reasons for pursuing child support. Today, nine years after these events, I understand your posts to be saying that your marriage is in recovery even with some (minimal) contact between FWW and OM.

I understand that you are relating your story and not necessarily proposing your course of action to others.

My problem with your recent posts, though, is that they have been placed on the threads of new posters.

New posters are (almost always, by definition) at the stage where they have recently discovered that an OC is on the way, or have just found out about the child's existence. The problem for them is new, and they are looking for advice on MB about how to cope with OC now and in the future.

Our advice to them, at this moment when they are at a crossroads, should be that there must be NC between WS and OP. This is Dr Harley's unwavering advice after an affair.

This means that the married couple must decide what to do about contact with OC. It will be hard on the BS to have contact with OC, but if he/she agrees to contact, he/she must be advised of how to achieve this with absolute NC between WS and OP.

NC might mean forgoing CS, in the case of a FWW with OC. It might mean paying CS but never seeing the child, in the case of WH with OC. Dr Harley has discussed these various scenarios on his radio broadcast; for example, when he discussed faithful follower's situation.

The only moral and MB advice we can and should give to a new poster, asking here for help with the decision about contact with OC, is to underscore that advice with the consistent, single message of NC between WS and OP. Any other options have no place on the thread of a desperate new poster facing a life-changing decision.

When you post your story on the thread of a new poster, you appear to do that in order to suggest to them that your situation is worthy of their consideration. Certainly, you do not seem to post it as a cautionary tale; "DON'T do as I was forced to do", as faithful follower and Dealan use their situations.

I mean no disrespect, but I can't see how your wife's contact with her OP - very limited as it is - can possibly be a solution that a new poster should consider.

I'm not talking now about your choice to pursue CS; I am talking about allowing or conceding (or however you term it) ANY contact between your FWW and OP.

Would you really want to see a new poster in the position that you are in now, with contact between FWW and OP, or do you think they should take Dr Harley's advice for NC, what ever it takes, before they become trapped in a situation with courts and lawyers and enforced residence etc?

"I don't know of any situations where a WS is "forced" to see the OP"

Obviously ML you haven't been called to appear before a counselor at the Child Support office and had them allow only the WS and the attorney to be present because the BS doesn't have anything to do with the matter.

Neither have you had your WS summoned to appear in court to decide visitation and CS. The Courts get to decide if there is 100% NC. Not the people.

I totally advocate for NC. It is best. But as Migs said. Even Jennifer waivers on the NC with the OC. When you have C with the OC, life and circumstances will interfere. You have to anticipate that so that you can defend against it. If all you do is say NC, then it will fail.

My point is not to continue this onslaught against other forum members, but all of us are still here for a reason. The effects of an A with OC do not resolve in 2 years or 6 years. They are going to be here for at least 18 years. We are all working on recovery and re building a better M than what we had, while we deal with the realities of what happened, the effects of the recession, the loss of huge amounts of income to our family given as CS to the OW. Being attacked here for discussing how to get through each day is not helpful. Maybe discussing it on a newbies post isn't best, but they need to hear from us as well. Because they need to be NC until DNA is proven, They need to protect their family finances for their COM as best they can. They are also going to need to deal with reality, which isn't as clean as you try to make seem. Many of this BS's would go under completely without being able to talk to someone that has walked in their shoes.
We have a place here too, that's probably where the original private forum came from.

fled,

I have much sympathy for you and I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this.

My point in the post above yours was that when people in your situation discuss it on a new poster's thread, it should as a WARNING. I think that there is much merit in someone who has actually lived through an OC situation describing what has been hard about that situation now, years later. I think their experience is invaluable in helping the new poster to look ahead and see how their lives will be affected years down the line. Someone in your position can advise the new poster on how NOT to end up in a situation where the court enforces contact between WS and OP as you describe.

What do you advise when, for example, a new FWW comes here asking whether she should pursue CS from OM?

Again, the issue is not about NC with the OC. It is about NC with the OP. And no, it won't fail if you take steps to prevent it. Sure, there may be cases where a WS is forced to go to a court hearing with an OP in an OC case,[although many BS in Plan B have simply had their atty go in their place] but that is not license to throw other nc precautions out the window. Courts DO NOT force a WS and an OP to stay in direct contact, that is nonsense, and IS NOT the case here. Pops and eirab's WS's are not court ordered to see the OP. None of the cases here are "court ordered" where there is contact. It is just that that the BS has chosen to ignore basic precautions. And that is fine, but don't come here and share your risky practices with newcomers. Good grief.


What is not helpful is giving newcomers dangerous, risky advice that conflicts with Dr Harley's when they are in the worst crisis of their life. And the only ones "attacked" were board members who were advocating Marriage Builders concepts who were called "myopically arrogant." How ironic to be chastised and called names for recommending a BASIC Marriage Builders concept............on Marriage Builders. That is disrespectful to the folks who pay for this board, don't ya think?


And many more BS's will go under too if they are fed bad advice that harms their marriage, their mental health and their children's family. Adultery is as traumatic as rape or physical assault, so not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid it is foolhardy and dangerous. That is what telling them they can ignore NC will do. A marriage that has been assaulted by an affair AND an OC should be doubly protected, not the other way around.

The bottom line is that we need to stick to Dr Harley's advice on this forum, people don't come here to hear our crap. It was our best thinking that screwed up our own marriages, after all. I sure didn't know how to save a marriage when I came here, I only knew how to screw them up! When posting to newcomers here, that is what we stick to. Dr Harley is ADAMANT about no contact, because that is the only way to truly protect and recover the marriage. This is his board, that is the board policy.

It should be emphasized to onlookers that in the cases where there is contact between the OP and the WS on this board, it is not because the court ordered it, but because the participants willfully choose to ignore this precaution. It was done by CHOICE, not FORCE.

Dr Harley never wavers on that point, never. Here is what he said on the radio earlier this week:

Question to Dr Harley: What happens when the affair has produced a child and the couple wants to save the marriage but communication needs to continue between the lover and the spouse because of the child?

Dr Harley: It doesn't work.

The basic approach that we take to a marriage surviving an affair is step #1 that you cannot see or talk to the lover for the rest of your life.

Step #2 is you have to create a romantic relationship that is superior to the relationship before the affair.

The purpose for not talking to the lover is two fold, it prevents the temptation of rekindling of the affair, which is alway s risk. The second reason is that it is a terrible offense to the betrayed spouse. It is like a woman who has been raped having to revist the rapist from time to time.

continued at this radio link click here and go to 37:00

sugarcane i took no offense by your post and appreciate your understanding

my statements below are where i am assuming this whole debate erupted

""""""she will be 9 in december

originally i was the go between. handled all drop offs and pick ups and all communication.

that has changed. now and for the past 2 years or so all communication is handled by my w."""""""

granted maybe i should have used more words to explain exactly how it has worked for us. Lord knows i have a gift for gab.

but

if you notice i have given oc's age, stated that i was and did handle all DO's, PU's and communication for 7 years (9 take away 2). and now it is my w that handles the communication

the reason i posted that where i did was b/c if you look at WH's words she is in a quandry over her om seeking to be a part of oc's life. to the point that "he" has actually taken her to court over it

i don't see the harm in showing her that "if" that ends up being the case there is still hope for her and her h to rebuild a thriving healthy marriage

and yes i do feel that the best chance for her to get past om is by nc right now. which does not mean automatic success

i don't see how that is going to work for her since she "cares about what he thinks of her".

she is still in a very thick fog and even his court actions, hating her and separartion from him for approx 3 months has not given way to any glimpse of sunshine

pops, the important thing is that Dr Harley DOES feel there is great harm in any continued contact between the WS and the OP and that it precludes a "healthy, thriving marriage." That is not just his professional opinion, it is a FACT. The fact that you don't "see the harm" in giving newcomers marriage wrecking advice that contradicts Dr Harley is part of the problem. The point is that it is not fair to newcomers to substitute your own personal opinion for Dr Harley's professional expertise, nor is it allowed on this board. He knows how to save marriages; we don't. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages, after all.

sugarcane you asked: """"a new FWW comes here asking whether she should pursue CS from OM?""""'

respectfully this is not a black and white question and depends a lot on each persons individual beliefs and circumstances

for me i believe any man who fathers a child should be at the minimum financialy responsible for that child

but that brings on whole other set of "what if's" that has been argued here for many many years

bottom line is that for me any new person here should read and become as knowledgeable with the principles as possible

BUT

they should hear from all those that have been in their shoes before. that way they can see that even tho the MB principles are sound that sometimes they do not fit every situation and that there is still hope and support available for them

A final reminder of our board policy! If you cannot help newcomers with Marriage Builders concepts, then kindly refrain from posting. This is board policy and we ask that you respect it. Board members should not be placed in a position to have to debate the merits of this program on the thread of a newcomer.

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email our board administrator, Justuss.

We are locking this thread so we can get back to the purpose of this board. Thank you!

melody, respectfully i am not sure about you but in my case it was not my w's "best" thinking that screwed up our marriage but her worst








just kidding you. i know what you mean