�every now and then she will ask a question like "why is my skin darker than her sister's?"

�fh or i expalin it by saying she gets that from poppy (om). we don't go into geniology. we feel that deep science explaination would be over a 9 year olds head.�

An age appropriate answer. You didn�t lie, you told her the truth. Enough truth for now. She knows she has two dads. As she gets older she will put 2 and 2 together. When the light bulb comes on she will come and ask again seeking more depth.

I hope she asks you before the OM.

Then I read your second post and saw this:

�she would often tell us that she was afraid to talk to om about some basic things b/c he would get mad at her.�

What questions did the OM get mad at?

I think the OM did not accept your option to go NC after you offered it if you gave up CS because he lost your WW, sole custody of the OC, the OC spends most of the time in your house, and he would never get of the CS money he already spent back, then going NC after all these years you make OM look like an even bigger loser for turning his back on his OC after many years.

OM has made you his sworn enemy. He can no longer fight you on the mattress any more be he can make life hell by dragging you into court till OC hits 18, then maybe more if the court deems him responsible for her college education. Maybe the OM feels all the drama he can cause with continued contact can drive you and WW apart.

This I still say you should of fought for NC not CS.

Edit to add have a good thanksgiving.

Ok ml let me be perfectly clear

just as i do not live in fear of our op i do not live in fear of you reporting me to the moderators. if you feel i am in violation of any MB regulations or agreements then i say don't wait. report it and let them decide. they are wise people and i can live with their decision

I "DARE" b/c i believe that this is an "OPEN FORUM" where having been here for 10 years (such as yourself) and having lived through this specific situation of an A with OC and continue to do so and having seen many people leave this site and struggle on b/c of the harsh demanding opinions that i have valuable insight that can be both supportive and give them hope

that said i will not respond to you again on this topic

have a great Thankgiving and enjoy your family

The board administrator already DID decide when she posted on THIS THREAD. Did you not SEE Justuss' post on this thread? Can you READ? Did you not see the thread tacked to the top of this forum? Can you not read the board policy in the Announcement section? What more does it take to get through to you, pops?

This is not about a "feeling" I have, this is about stated BOARD POLICY. When you post conflicting advice to newcomers, you are in violation of board policy.

How many times does the Board Adminstrator have to post this in order for you to GET IT?

ml

have a great Thankgiving and enjoy your family

Same to you, pops! And I mean that sincerely.

"""""What questions did the OM get mad at?""""

not the serious questions you may be thinking. things like if the team decides to go for ice cream after a soccer game on his weekend and she asks to go he gets mad at her.

if she wants to go to back to school night on his weekday he gets mad at her.

really stupid stuff. but not from a 9 yo's eyes

i think he didn't accept the offer b/c we are so far down the road and he has other kids that have known oc for so many years. that would really make him look bad in their eyes if he could give up one kid he could give up another

you may be right on the hell by court idea. tho i think it is b/c he is so $$ greedy. he is always trying to cuut his cs to both fh and his now exw.

as an example when he D his ex after 20 years they had 3 cars. even tho they had a down syndrom dd he took all the cars b/c they were in his name and left her to fend for herself. then he faught her in court b/c she made a decent wage and got to where he only paid her something like $90 a month even tho she was the primary custody parent of their dd

road you are probably right about fighting for nc instead of cs. at the time i am sure i didn't separate the 2 and certainly felt i needed something to make me feel like my w was not protecting om

by the way my w did drag her feet on making choices, decisions and giving me accurate feed back on om's character (and i use that word very lightly)


you have a great Thanksgiving also and count all your blessings

pops,

I have sympathy for your reasons for pursuing child support. Today, nine years after these events, I understand your posts to be saying that your marriage is in recovery even with some (minimal) contact between FWW and OM.

I understand that you are relating your story and not necessarily proposing your course of action to others.

My problem with your recent posts, though, is that they have been placed on the threads of new posters.

New posters are (almost always, by definition) at the stage where they have recently discovered that an OC is on the way, or have just found out about the child's existence. The problem for them is new, and they are looking for advice on MB about how to cope with OC now and in the future.

Our advice to them, at this moment when they are at a crossroads, should be that there must be NC between WS and OP. This is Dr Harley's unwavering advice after an affair.

This means that the married couple must decide what to do about contact with OC. It will be hard on the BS to have contact with OC, but if he/she agrees to contact, he/she must be advised of how to achieve this with absolute NC between WS and OP.

NC might mean forgoing CS, in the case of a FWW with OC. It might mean paying CS but never seeing the child, in the case of WH with OC. Dr Harley has discussed these various scenarios on his radio broadcast; for example, when he discussed faithful follower's situation.

The only moral and MB advice we can and should give to a new poster, asking here for help with the decision about contact with OC, is to underscore that advice with the consistent, single message of NC between WS and OP. Any other options have no place on the thread of a desperate new poster facing a life-changing decision.

When you post your story on the thread of a new poster, you appear to do that in order to suggest to them that your situation is worthy of their consideration. Certainly, you do not seem to post it as a cautionary tale; "DON'T do as I was forced to do", as faithful follower and Dealan use their situations.

I mean no disrespect, but I can't see how your wife's contact with her OP - very limited as it is - can possibly be a solution that a new poster should consider.

I'm not talking now about your choice to pursue CS; I am talking about allowing or conceding (or however you term it) ANY contact between your FWW and OP.

Would you really want to see a new poster in the position that you are in now, with contact between FWW and OP, or do you think they should take Dr Harley's advice for NC, what ever it takes, before they become trapped in a situation with courts and lawyers and enforced residence etc?

"I don't know of any situations where a WS is "forced" to see the OP"

Obviously ML you haven't been called to appear before a counselor at the Child Support office and had them allow only the WS and the attorney to be present because the BS doesn't have anything to do with the matter.

Neither have you had your WS summoned to appear in court to decide visitation and CS. The Courts get to decide if there is 100% NC. Not the people.

I totally advocate for NC. It is best. But as Migs said. Even Jennifer waivers on the NC with the OC. When you have C with the OC, life and circumstances will interfere. You have to anticipate that so that you can defend against it. If all you do is say NC, then it will fail.

My point is not to continue this onslaught against other forum members, but all of us are still here for a reason. The effects of an A with OC do not resolve in 2 years or 6 years. They are going to be here for at least 18 years. We are all working on recovery and re building a better M than what we had, while we deal with the realities of what happened, the effects of the recession, the loss of huge amounts of income to our family given as CS to the OW. Being attacked here for discussing how to get through each day is not helpful. Maybe discussing it on a newbies post isn't best, but they need to hear from us as well. Because they need to be NC until DNA is proven, They need to protect their family finances for their COM as best they can. They are also going to need to deal with reality, which isn't as clean as you try to make seem. Many of this BS's would go under completely without being able to talk to someone that has walked in their shoes.
We have a place here too, that's probably where the original private forum came from.

fled,

I have much sympathy for you and I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this.

My point in the post above yours was that when people in your situation discuss it on a new poster's thread, it should as a WARNING. I think that there is much merit in someone who has actually lived through an OC situation describing what has been hard about that situation now, years later. I think their experience is invaluable in helping the new poster to look ahead and see how their lives will be affected years down the line. Someone in your position can advise the new poster on how NOT to end up in a situation where the court enforces contact between WS and OP as you describe.

What do you advise when, for example, a new FWW comes here asking whether she should pursue CS from OM?

Again, the issue is not about NC with the OC. It is about NC with the OP. And no, it won't fail if you take steps to prevent it. Sure, there may be cases where a WS is forced to go to a court hearing with an OP in an OC case,[although many BS in Plan B have simply had their atty go in their place] but that is not license to throw other nc precautions out the window. Courts DO NOT force a WS and an OP to stay in direct contact, that is nonsense, and IS NOT the case here. Pops and eirab's WS's are not court ordered to see the OP. None of the cases here are "court ordered" where there is contact. It is just that that the BS has chosen to ignore basic precautions. And that is fine, but don't come here and share your risky practices with newcomers. Good grief.


What is not helpful is giving newcomers dangerous, risky advice that conflicts with Dr Harley's when they are in the worst crisis of their life. And the only ones "attacked" were board members who were advocating Marriage Builders concepts who were called "myopically arrogant." How ironic to be chastised and called names for recommending a BASIC Marriage Builders concept............on Marriage Builders. That is disrespectful to the folks who pay for this board, don't ya think?


And many more BS's will go under too if they are fed bad advice that harms their marriage, their mental health and their children's family. Adultery is as traumatic as rape or physical assault, so not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid it is foolhardy and dangerous. That is what telling them they can ignore NC will do. A marriage that has been assaulted by an affair AND an OC should be doubly protected, not the other way around.

The bottom line is that we need to stick to Dr Harley's advice on this forum, people don't come here to hear our crap. It was our best thinking that screwed up our own marriages, after all. I sure didn't know how to save a marriage when I came here, I only knew how to screw them up! When posting to newcomers here, that is what we stick to. Dr Harley is ADAMANT about no contact, because that is the only way to truly protect and recover the marriage. This is his board, that is the board policy.

It should be emphasized to onlookers that in the cases where there is contact between the OP and the WS on this board, it is not because the court ordered it, but because the participants willfully choose to ignore this precaution. It was done by CHOICE, not FORCE.

Dr Harley never wavers on that point, never. Here is what he said on the radio earlier this week:

Question to Dr Harley: What happens when the affair has produced a child and the couple wants to save the marriage but communication needs to continue between the lover and the spouse because of the child?

Dr Harley: It doesn't work.

The basic approach that we take to a marriage surviving an affair is step #1 that you cannot see or talk to the lover for the rest of your life.

Step #2 is you have to create a romantic relationship that is superior to the relationship before the affair.

The purpose for not talking to the lover is two fold, it prevents the temptation of rekindling of the affair, which is alway s risk. The second reason is that it is a terrible offense to the betrayed spouse. It is like a woman who has been raped having to revist the rapist from time to time.

continued at this radio link click here and go to 37:00

sugarcane i took no offense by your post and appreciate your understanding

my statements below are where i am assuming this whole debate erupted

""""""she will be 9 in december

originally i was the go between. handled all drop offs and pick ups and all communication.

that has changed. now and for the past 2 years or so all communication is handled by my w."""""""

granted maybe i should have used more words to explain exactly how it has worked for us. Lord knows i have a gift for gab.

but

if you notice i have given oc's age, stated that i was and did handle all DO's, PU's and communication for 7 years (9 take away 2). and now it is my w that handles the communication

the reason i posted that where i did was b/c if you look at WH's words she is in a quandry over her om seeking to be a part of oc's life. to the point that "he" has actually taken her to court over it

i don't see the harm in showing her that "if" that ends up being the case there is still hope for her and her h to rebuild a thriving healthy marriage

and yes i do feel that the best chance for her to get past om is by nc right now. which does not mean automatic success

i don't see how that is going to work for her since she "cares about what he thinks of her".

she is still in a very thick fog and even his court actions, hating her and separartion from him for approx 3 months has not given way to any glimpse of sunshine

pops, the important thing is that Dr Harley DOES feel there is great harm in any continued contact between the WS and the OP and that it precludes a "healthy, thriving marriage." That is not just his professional opinion, it is a FACT. The fact that you don't "see the harm" in giving newcomers marriage wrecking advice that contradicts Dr Harley is part of the problem. The point is that it is not fair to newcomers to substitute your own personal opinion for Dr Harley's professional expertise, nor is it allowed on this board. He knows how to save marriages; we don't. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages, after all.

sugarcane you asked: """"a new FWW comes here asking whether she should pursue CS from OM?""""'

respectfully this is not a black and white question and depends a lot on each persons individual beliefs and circumstances

for me i believe any man who fathers a child should be at the minimum financialy responsible for that child

but that brings on whole other set of "what if's" that has been argued here for many many years

bottom line is that for me any new person here should read and become as knowledgeable with the principles as possible

BUT

they should hear from all those that have been in their shoes before. that way they can see that even tho the MB principles are sound that sometimes they do not fit every situation and that there is still hope and support available for them

A final reminder of our board policy! If you cannot help newcomers with Marriage Builders concepts, then kindly refrain from posting. This is board policy and we ask that you respect it. Board members should not be placed in a position to have to debate the merits of this program on the thread of a newcomer.

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email our board administrator, Justuss.

We are locking this thread so we can get back to the purpose of this board. Thank you!

melody, respectfully i am not sure about you but in my case it was not my w's "best" thinking that screwed up our marriage but her worst








just kidding you. i know what you mean