Some senarios for EVERYONE to think about...

Marriage Builders

Ok, I was in the shower after reading posts tonight and started thinking. So I thought I'd share.Senario no. 1:A building is burning. The firemen are holding babies out of the window to be caught by those down below. One of those children is yours. There is no possible way to catch both babies. You have to choose between your own and the other. Which do you choose???? Any warm blooded mother chooses her own. Same senario, OW is at the bottom of the building, does she choose the BS's child or her own? You know the answer. Does the BS expect her to sacrafice her own child to save the BS's? Why would she, the OW didn't choose the BS's child when she was making decisions about sleeping with their father, or when she was plotting to "steal" him away from his family.Senario no. 2:A small boating craft is sinking. There are two floating devices available. One big enough to hold two adults and one child, that one being the most seaworthy and guaranteed to float to safety. The other a smaller vessel, also big enough to hold two adults and one child, that one not so seaworthy and has a possiblilty to make it to shore... but no guarantees. A man must choose whom goes on the most seaworthy vessel with him. Who does he choose, the ow/oc or his wife and child? Does he choose the woman who lied to him about birth control and is using the child as a pawn to "win" the man, or does he choose his wife who has not lied throughout their marriage and the child he's grown to love and who knows and loves him?Ladies.... never, ever feel bad about any of the choices you make for you or your family. Never feel like you have to defend your husband's choices either.Know that the people who count don't judge you and most importantly God doesn't condemn you for your choices. The proof is in his word:Genesis 21:10-15Forever humble in my relationship with God,
Z.[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]

Thanks Z, That puts it so concisely....like Tigger's post...there is no "one size fits all"...we all have to seriously look at the WHOLE picture and think of what's best for our families and ALL children involved.Thanks for putting it so eloquently,
Twiisty

zebrababy,
I am so glad that youdecided to post those scenerios and I'm also glad that you put "steal" in quotation marks because it is a relative term. No one can steal a person who is willing to go. Otherwise, that would be kidnapping. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] But seriously though, I can see both sides of the picture. I think it's important to remember that not all OWs were told the truth about the MMs home situation. OWs are not always the one doing the lying. I lurk a lot on this board but very rarely do I post and i have to agree that sometimes it seems as if a poster doesn't go with the flow of traffic they are considered nonsupportive and asked to leave. I understand that it's not productive to be antagonistic, but isn't it beneficial to let everyone voice there opinion? I know, you never say what you could or couldn't do in a situation until you've been in a situation but I personally could respect no man who would want nothing to do with their own flesh and blood. I know that an OC is not a part of a core family unit, but still, the OC IS a part of both parents. I guess that's why I read...it's just hard for me to comprehend the logic.

Thank you, Z, for providing such thought provoking logic.Dear GraceAs a bio mom who gave up a son at birth, many think my sacrifice noble, even though I had nothing to do with my son all the time he was being raised by a couple in another part of the state. Why are bio mom's who make the decision to give their child up for adoption when they have no other option and cannot provide a home for their child heralded as unselfish and kind while a bio dad is a selfish jerk and heartless to give up their child to the OW and her support system, (if she has one...and if she doesn't, she is the selfish one for keeping the child, IMO) and return to his family of origin of many years of comitment? Why is he a cold hearted [censored] for not wanting to subject his distraught wife and children to more horror and injury than has already been caused? Why do these OW's INSIST on forcing the issue? Why do they not just move ahead and bear the consequences of their own actions (while forcing these consequences on their own child by keeping him/her) and accept the fact the only thing they can expect if they choose this route is financial support, which is quite a generous incentive these days? This is just my opinion, Grace. And I certainly respect your POV as well. No one is going to force you off this forum for a differing opinion...if they did, I would have been forced off years ago because of my hard line opinions. We have never forced anyone off the forum for their opinion. In the past we have only forced off people who were obviously here to create ill will and reveled in hurting fragile members.I see you feel that the MM should be 'involved' in the OC's life, and there are others here who share this view, and there are several here who have gone to great lengths to include the OC into their families and lives, most with disasterous results. I am not one of them, but I deeply admire the ones who can open their hearts and homes to child that is a constant reminder of the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage...they are angels on earth.Welcome, Grace...and your opinions!Catnip =^^=

I know up to this point I have only spoken on a professional level, but this time I will have to change that.I agree with SBG, I have been through all of this in personal life and I deal with it quite a bit professionally. Many of the women involved have been mislead by the MM into thinking either they weren't married at all, separated and the divorce was ALMOST final, the marriage was hell to begin with, or something in order to gain the woman's confidence that the marriage was over. These women TRUSTED these men, and thought that they were being told the whole truth about the situation. Rarely do I speak with a woman that actively got herself involved in an affair with a MM or a woman that TRIED to get pregnant by a MM. The baby, often, is a surprise. But too often I see the child from the affair bear the burden for the mistakes of the adults. The child IS a part of BOTH parents whether one of them was married to someone else or not.Unfortunately, much of the time one of the women involved becomes VERY jealous of the other one, and that is probably the biggest problem I see. The adults forget that the person(s)in need of the most care is/are the child(ren)that are caught in the middle. They had no choice in whether or not to be involved, they were just thrown into the fire.

catnip, you brought up a very good point. You are correct, I do feel that an MM should be involved in an OC's life. But let me clarify...it's not just a MM, I think ANY man that helps to create a child should help take care of the child. But like i said earlier, you can't say what you would or would not do in a situation unless you have been in that situation. I know there are many loving people out there who cannot have children of their own and would love to adopt a child, but then there is also that child's feelings to consider too...I think that if I were an adopted child, no matter how well the adoptive parents treated me, I would still want a relationship with my birthparents. Same with an OC. Yes the core family is innocent and so is the OC (IMO) and the CHILD should not be penalized b/c of what the mother chose to do. I'm going to stop now b/c I don't want to seem antagonistic myself.

Again, I must agree with SBG. She is absolutely right when she said that no CHILD should be punished due to the decisions of their parents. That means ANY child, regardsless of the circumstances surrounding their conception or anything thereafter. If you can contribute to the conception of a child than you can take care of the needs of that child - financially, emotionally, and physically. That is the respectable thing to do and should be done by both parents, unless we want a world full of Timothy McVeigh's and Jeffery Dahmer's.

hello,
I would have to disagree about wanting a realtionship with your bio parents. My H was adopted and he says that was the best thing that had happen to him. His parents were dirt poor and already had 5 to take care of. He knows who is bio mom is and does not want anything to do with her. And his adopted parents have passed away.

Skittles & SBGI don't know your story or history. But I'll give you mine. exOW in my case actually told me (while she was preg) that if she knew I had a baby she wouldn't have gotten pregnant or would have had and abortion. OC and my D are almost 9 months apart my D being older. Once I found out about the affair and possible OC I immediatly filed for a "D" H begged and pleaded for a second chance. I later found out from exOW that she didn't tell my H about the pregnancy until she was 5 1/2 months. H ended the relationship before she found out she was preg. This is an exOW who admits she purposely got pregnant and lied about taking birth control pills. H still lies (maybe he is or isn't I wasn't there) and says the condom broke. After all of this I decide that if OC is my H's I would support contact. I thought I wouldn't respect my H if he choose otherwise. I pushed him to take the DNA test, I pushed him to pay CS once the results where in. I wanted to do the right thing by OC. When H mentioned contact and exOW found out I would be involved she attack me not my H at every angle. Even lied and had me falsly arrested. (the truth came out and the charges were dropped but not until I paid money I couldn't afford to a lawyer) This was not an exOW who didn't know my H was married, one of her friends called me at work and told me about the affair when I confronted them they both lied. She supposedly had a boyfriend and would never mess with a MM. OC is 13 months old DNA results were in when she was 2 or 3 months H still has not had visitation because I can't be included. These woman screw a married man and then turn against BS's. Everyone makes mistakes but when do you finally say I screwed up I have to do what's best for my child? Tomorrow we go to court becasue exOW sued H for visitation with OC. This will be our second attempt we have a lawyer this time maybe her eyes will be open and she will stop trying to use OC as a pawn then again maybe they won't. There are two sides to every coin. There are men and women who truly accept OC's in their lives but the poor OC suffers because of the exOW hatred towards the BS.Tomorrow I'll sit in court and be the supportive wife while exOW and her sister hurl insults my way in Spanish. I flipped out and lost it last time when she and sister physically came after me. The only time she's seen my feathers ruffled. I read Psalms Chapter 11 through chpter 17. It has good information for those being attacked unjustly. I'm praying and hoping I can ignore them this time.I wasn't going to go to court to try and make things easier for my H. He got off work today came in the bedroom and said he missed me and needs me in court with him. He said I want you there and I need you there. So I'll be there for him supporting him knowing I'll be attacked at every angle for showing my face. Even though as his wife of 10 years I have a right to be there. What do you guys say about someone in a situation like mine. Or a few of the other members of MB who support contact with OC. I know I'll support my H either way contact or no contact. He's a great father to our three children and now a great husband to me. I try not to blame exOW antics on OC but they are hard to seperate sometimes. exOW's have a responsiblity every woman does, when they bring a child in this world without giving the father a chance to decide if they want or don't want to be a part of this child life. If the father decides not to be in OC life too bad that's the risks you take when you have a baby by a married man which I wouldn't do. Catnip-"As a bio mom who gave up a son at birth, many think my sacrifice noble, even though I had nothing to do with my son all the time he was being raised by a couple in another part of the state. Why are bio mom's who make the decision to give their child up for adoption when they have no other option and cannot provide a home for their child heralded as unselfish and kind while a bio dad is a selfish jerk and heartless to give up their child to the OW" I couldn't agree more. Z- As you can see a lot is on my mind thinking about going to court tomorrow and wondering about the outcome thanks for this post it allowed me a needed vent. I miss chatting with you. Ya Sistah in recovery.
Unsure

No one is 'punishing' the OC, except perhaps the OW for keeping it.The OW is the one who insists on calling all the shots from beginning to end, from getting pregnant, to staying pregnant, to having it, to keeping it, then after the OC is here, the OW insists on dictating who gets to be involved with OC and who is excluded from the list. The Betrayed Spouse is usually excluded which leaves the MM less than enthusiastic or inspired about having a relationship of any kind with the OC because all he wants to do is make amends to his wife and children, fix his marriage and restore the family and be with his children...the ones he has a history with.The BS here on this site are focused on their marriages, their children, their families, their history and busy with their lives and are not all that concerned about the OW or OC. The OC is not OUR child ...we had nothing to do with it. I guess that's why we don't feel any guilt and complaints from OW's are usually met with indifference. We don't car what they think or how they feel. I am also very busy and so far removed from the situation now, that I am just assuming the OW is taking care of the OC and that's that. I don't hate the OC nor do I wish it ill will. It's just not my child and I just feel about it as I would any stranger/child.A Priest at Retrouvaille once told me that my husband had "Absolutely no obligation to OW or OC except financial..." that his first obligation was to me and to the marriage. That in the Scripture it reminds us over and over that nothing is more important than the marraige, first and foremost. I guess this is why this site is called Marriage Builder and why this is all we really focused on.Men are so different than we are. We want to 'nest' and nurture while men are not born with that same instinct to do this. Their nurturing comes with time and involvement, but when a man is married and his first obligation is to his wife and children from that marriage and he has all this history with them, he just can't deny his children and spread himself so thin he doesn't have time for them anymore because he has to chase around and comply with the OW's demands to take care of OC, too, especially when OW won't allow BS to be involved in OC's life.OW's, as a rule, are determined to manipulate and control the situation and call all the shots. They often become hostile and angry when they can't get a reaction and retaliate or try to guilt the MM and his wife, who couldn't care less.It's just too much work and we all have such busy lives and so many other things that take precedence, that the OW's should just focus on their OC and let their obsession with guilting the MM or his spouse go, because it just isn't going to work or make any difference. We just have to focus on the marrige and our own children.I know there are those who will agree with your POV and I can see your side if you look at it from the aspect the 'child' takes precedence over the marriage, but it does not. At least not in the Scriptures or at Retrouvaille. Or in my house.Good luck to you, though, and thanks for your input. It is certainly an interesting take on it.Catnip =^^=

In my line of work, I see all to often men that decide it's an option whether or not they want to be a parent to the children that they have created. I highly disagree with this line of thinking. And what about the wives I see making it hard for the mothers of these kids?Reverse the situation. Do you think that the man would shun the child if the wife had no say in the situation? Probably not. The majority of the fathers I come in contact with put up a front in front of their wives regarding these children and how they feel about them. They say they are doing it to either spare the wife or spare themselves the hell they would face from the wife if they appeared to love the child.Bottom line - I feel it's NEVER a choice to take the responsibility that comes with a child YOU had a part in creating. Most of these women just want the men to do right by their child.As for the birth control issue, birth control never had a 100% success rate. My sister was on Depo and still got pregnant, a friend was on the pill and still got pregnant. Nothing is 100%.

Well, since you asked i don't mind telling you that I personally do not agree with an OW purposely trying to plan a pregnancy by an MM or any woman for that matter purposely trying to plan a pregnancy with a man who she is not certain would WANT to be in that child's life. HOWEVER I do feel that ANYONE who has sex KNOWS that there is ALWAYS a chance, however small, that sex can lead to pregnancy. I just really feel strongly about that. It doesn't matter if someone says they are on the pill or not---you can never know if that person is taking the pill correctly and even then sometimes...SOMETIMES, it STILL can fail. Same thing with using condoms. there is ALWAYS a chance that the condom could break. So I feel like if you are going to engage in sexual intercourse with a person, you should be willing to accept the consequences that come along with that choice. i think that if you don't want to risk an unplanned pregnancy-DON'T HAVE SEX. If you don't want to risk catching a sexually transmitted infection/disease DON'T HAVE SEX. In reading this and other boards, I have learned that you can never be sure about anyone...even if you are married to them. I have an aunt who is 36 yrs old and had a tubal ligation about 8 years ago. She is 2 months pregnant now. NOTHING is 100% guaranteed. As far as an OW keeping the baby regardless of if the man wants to be in the childs life, i still feel that that man should have realized that by engaging in sex with someone other than his spouse, something unfortunate could happen. Ans as far as your OW not wanting the OC to have a relationship with it's father just because the BS will be involved in the child's life, I think that's just as crazy. That's a conequence the OW should have to deal with. But to say that a man shouldn't be involved because he didn't want it and because it would impair his core family then I DO place blame on that man as well because he should not have laid down with someone he didn't want to have a child with. And again, this is not meant to antagonize, it is JMHO.

Well said SBG! I agree with you for the most part. The only statement I question the one about the mother having to deal with the wife b/c she is married to the father. I don't feel the 2 women should ever have to come in contact with each other at all unless it is acceptable to both of them. The man is the one that spread himself too thin, deal with it. Learn to separate.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>HOWEVER I do feel that ANYONE who has sex KNOWS that there is ALWAYS a chance, however small, that sex can lead to pregnancy. I just really feel strongly about that.<hr></blockquote>Ow always are saying that statement.Sort of a clandestine wish to conceive while boinking MM.You may be right when you say that MM isn't involved because of W.Everything in life is a trade-off. MM usually sees no end to the horror he caused W when ow/oc constantly stir the pot. It is MM who makes decisions on protecting what they cherish most. After putting W and families through so much pain, the oc is then put up for "adoption" so to speak. It'd done everyday. As in giving up a child for "adoption" you may always remember oc, but you did the best you could in a bad situation.We intend to move past this pain together into the future. To continue to share our lives together before this happened w/o further "reminders" always in our face.It's what "we" chose. It's what will work for us.Oc will grow up someday in spite of us or H.JMHO.....

zebra, nice hearing from you. I'm sorry your thread took this yucky turn. skittles, you imply that your job involves some sort of professional counseling?? Two thoughts on that: One, the type of XOW some wives on this board are dealing with will NOT be seen in any counseling office! They are generally of low class with serious behavioral and psychological problems, no money or motivation to get their heads screwed on straight!! Yes, some OW are victimized by MM, but some women ARE predatory for a variety of ugly reasons, not the least of which is money. Let's not white-wash all womanhood, okay? Two, I truly hope you are not counseling married couples, because no decent marriage counselor should recommend that the recovering married couple "learn to separate" around the XOW. What kind of c**p is that?? The same attitude that allowed the Affair to happen in the first place!EX: Our (8mo pregnant) XOW told me by phone after DDay that she "just thought of [H and I] as separate people." Now, this woman was a "friend" at my home on a weekly, often daily basis, sharing child-care, going to parks and community events with ME and my child, etc. etc. etc. To allow her and my H to continue any solo contact with each other would allow the XOW to continue her BIZARRO train of thought, that she could treat us like we weren't even married!! No, it is NOT appropriate for MM solo contact with XOW! It utterly destroys rebuilding trust in the marriage. Who else can be the contact person IF there is to be any visitation with OC? Obviously, the wife/step-mom! I can't believe I let myself get so mad over such stupidity as this. Some people will Never *get it* no matter what we say. If any of you who like to "politely disagree" about OC are for REAL, I challange you to REALLY look at some of our situations (I'll give you mine!!) and you explain how your lovely utopian ethics would honestly work in it. You don't want to do that.Thoroughly disgusted, sorry I looked at the board,
Jenny[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jenny ]

Jenny, I don't knock you for your opinion and what works for you and your situation. Just like you shouldn't knock me for my opinion. That's all it is...an opinion. And just like you feel that I will never *get it* in your way of thinking, by the same token, you will never *get* my way of thinking, and I've never tried to make anyone think like me---I just expressed my POV. I think if you were not in the situation yourself you might just be a little less biased.Again, that's just my opinion.

In my case, OW told me to my face that she knew my hubby was married and I quote her, " I am madly in love with your husband and you and your children mean sh** to me..." that is a direct quote to me. Why my husband did what he did remains a mystery to me and him and we are talking about it in counseling...the closest thing we can get to an answer besides "stupidity" is the fact that he was ruled by lust. It was sex for the moment. I will never understand it, as I know the dynamics of my situation. OW deliberately got pg with my H's child to try to force him in her life.My H wanted to give the child up for adoption. We understand that OW doesn't necessarily feel that choice was best for her. We do our part by paying our financial obligation and are praying that OW's fiance would want to adopt the child. Not to get out of our obligation, but that OC deserves two parents WHO LOVE EACH OTHER. Not a mother who tried to get a MM away from his family and a bio-dad who admits he was wrong for what he did and forced fatherhood didn't do well on him...and before the condom issue hits the board again, I throw that in his face everyday...even to the detriment of my marriage. I do think my H is an idiot for his three incidences of sex with OW. I am at peace with my decision. My H made peace with his decision. We are moving on with our lives and with NO CONTACT. I respect others who feel that they should have contact. I will not be maligned for the choices I make. As it stands, OC and I are the innocent parties here. OW has alot to answer to her child for. I do look for the day that OC comes looking for us. When she does she will have a journal waiting for her that I write in to her...explaining why, etc.... for the choices that we had to make...It isn't just about OC...it's about our four children of the home too.There are no easy answers. What works for one family may not work for another. Each relationship has it's own uniqueness. I know my H and I are soulmates. I know this is the worse thing we have to go through at this point in our lives. I admire those that can open their home and heart to OC and try to withstand the crud that OW throws their way. I admire the OW's that try to work with MM's and their families to ensure as much as they can peace with everybody. I admire and hurt for the Men who were betrayed by their wives and are accepting or trying to accept the baby as result of infidelity.There are no easy answers in life. I prayed, and I prayed and my H prayed and we feel that this is best for us. I dont' owe anybody an explanation for what is best for my family. But I know in our case NO CONTACT is best for all involved.At the risk of sharing personal history, I offer the following:I was legitimately married to a man for 6 years. We had two beautiful daughters together. Things were rough in the marriage, but for the most part I was content and happy. I tried to be the good wife and mother I knew how to be. That didn't stop my ex-hubby from cheating on me nor naming my second daughter after his OW. I find this out in hindsight...I love my daughter, it's not her fault she carries OW's first name.My ex-hubby abandoned me and my two babies and left us homeless. I had to go on welfare. I was a single mother of two babies then, 18 months and 2 months old. I walked those floors by myself. I stayed up and studied for exams while picking lice out of my daughter's head that she picked up from daycare...praying that I got all the nits out of my own hair...(that was horrid for me...I was a CLEAN mother). I came from an upper middle class family and my family disowned me because I had to go on welfare at that time.I knew I was abandoned legitimately by a legally married husband. I became a single mother, and not by choice. Did I whine? NO. I got screwed over in divorce court (remember, I got $200 a month for two kids now) and still waiting for the health insurance my ex is supposed to send since 08/98.For the almost three years I raised my two girls by myself, I never said a negative word about their father. They knew who he was...they visited with his parents. They saw pictures. They knew that "Daddy B" was out there. I didn't pollyanna it and made it look glamorous, but I didn't bad mouth the man either. How my children were going to be raised was up to me.He was bad about remembering birthdays and holidays and never called or wrote. He got remarried. His wife tried in the beginning to make contact, but that died off too. I left the door open for them, but I wasn't going to force the issue. I went on with my life and my children never once cried "Boo hoo, I was rejected by my father...."
I never let them think that. If they asked me a question about him, I was honest. I told them the good about their daddy. For the bad, I told them that Daddy "B" had a problem (Bi-polar) and that when he's ready, he will do what he has to do. They were satisfied with that. I married my H now. My girls know "DADDY" as their daddy. Not Daddy "B". My H, now pays 100% for my children. WE just now started getting my mere $200 a month as my ex's wages are garnished.My girls are ok. My whole point in sharing this is this....How our children look at this is how we raise them. I cannot speak for our OW. I doubt she would tell OC the truth that she did in fact, deliberately go after a married man (she told me she did!)
If she was smart, she would go on with life. Raise her child with love. When the qustions come, answer as best as you can. I know for a fact that OW and my H don't know each other well. He doesn't know her middle name or birthdate...OW didn't know stuff about my H. My question is this...two people who barely know each other...you are going to raise a child together? Co-parent? It wouldn't work for us. We don't want to know OW any more than we have to. I honestly believe and with strong, deep conviction that my husband truly made the biggest and worse mistake of his life. He only gets "one get out of jail free" card with me. There is more to this OW/H relationship I don't share with y'all because that just me/h/ and ow's business.But I cant tell you this...she did go after him. My H is a jerk for cheating on me. I want to beat my H for what he did to me and how he hurt me. TIme will heal that. I do have a problem with a woman who wanted what she could not have and so chose selfishly to have a child. I understand that not all OW's operate that way and I apologize to the OW's that lurk or whatever who were genuinely lied to. I KNOW my Husband...all 16 years worth. I know when he grabs my hand whether he's gonna kiss it or stick my finger in his nose (an old gesture of affection). I can tell that by his mere touch and I can forewarn him that he better not do it.OW doesn't know the H that I know. She and H only knew the "little bubble" that Dr. Harley wrote about in "surviving an affair"...They only knew the little bubble that was carved out for sex. That's all it was about. SEX. Ow wanted more. I have to look at my H everyday and know that he was weak in one area that men are weak in...sex.That doesn't excuse my H's behavior. But my H showed true remorse. He wanted to do the right hing in giving the OC a better chance at life through adoption as abortion was not an option. OW chose to keep the child. She has that right. As I was a single mother, I can understand the heartache and the loliness she will go through. I do not envy her. As I made a choice to marry and got dumped by my legitimate hubby...I made the best of my situation and survived.It's all in how we raise the children. It's all in how we want our children to view the world. Interestingly, my ex- showed up after 8 years last January to see the girls. I have a rare photo of him and his wife with my two girls. The girls were excited to see him. They are 8 and 6 now. They never held it against him that he wasn't there for them. That he forgot their birthdays or holidays. They were just glad to see him. They even thought Miss "C" their step-mother was nice. I thought Miss "C" was nice and spent hours at my kitchen table with tea ironing out some isssues. I am not a mean bitter person. I try to work with everybody. I would even have tried with OC in my life. But when an OW tells you that your children means SH** to her...that tends to put me in a self-preservation mode.I will keep praying. I will keep moving on. I will pray that ideally that OC will be adopted. WE would gladly pay the court costs for her to be adopted by fiance-man if they can't afford it. NOT TO GET OUT OF OUR OBLIGATION, but because every child deserves people who will love and accept them, regardless of circumstances.That's my input in this. I will go back to lurking again, I suppose.Again, I value everybody's different point of views...here is mine...from yet another perspective.Hugs to y'all........
Twiisty
*whew*

SbyG said: "I just expressed my POV. I think if you were not in the situation yourself you might just be a little less biased."You're right, Saved! I AM biased by my experiences (not that you have any idea what my biases are), and that is WHO this board is for: people experiencing children as the result of affairs, people rebuilding their marriages. Since you don't seem to be coping with that, why are you here? Again, you aren't trying out your utopian ideals on a real-life situation, are you?????? They are but hot air. The real kudos goes not only to the betrayed spouses who are able to accept the OC in their lives (applause), but also to those who are in pain for having to shut the OC out, sometimes for very good reasons.

twisty,
You are one strong woman. You've been through a ton and my hat's off. I know you're going to make it, so hang in there!(hi catnip)May goodness always prevail,
J

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Interestingly, my ex- showed up after 8 years last January to see the girls. I have a rare photo of him and his wife with my two girls. The girls were excited to see him. They are 8 and 6 now. They never held it against him that he wasn't there for them. That he forgot their birthdays or holidays. They were just glad to see him. They even thought Miss "C" their step-mother was nice. <hr></blockquote>also....a side note...children pick up things from their mothers...their primary caregivers...I grew up with a bitter and negative mother...everything that came out of my mother's mouth was nasty about my father when they divorced. I grew up with a slanted view due to my mother's negativity and it took years for me to change my behavior with counseling and God....My H's parents are always late...never punctual for anything...he learned being late and procrastination as a way of life....my next point?What OW says and do about this situation will teach the child far more louder than anyones involvement in their lives.As I didn't make a BIG DEAL out of my ex forgetting the kid's birthdays or holidays my kids never noticed. I celebrated their days without saying a word...it's kinda like me being deaf...I have people come up to me saying, "I feel so sorry for you that you are deaf and can't hear this or that...."I look at them and say, "how can you miss something you never had? and I appreciate all the more what I can hear and have."I will sign off now...Mothers...(OW,SINGLE MARRIED WHATEVER) be careful how you speak around your children. Give careful thought of what you want to project on your child. You can be mad, sad, glad at your ex, MM or whatever...but a child is a child once...don't taint their view because of your hangups. I learned that from watching my mother and her negativity and it did tarnish my relationship with my father which we are just now recovering....but that's a whole nother thread...I'm signing off for real now....LOLTwiisty

Just a reminder...this is not a debate forum to discuss what jerks our husbands are or what responsibilities and obligations they have to anyone. This forum is for Betrayed Spouses who are experiencing the confusion and pain of a troubled marriage in recovery and a place to share ideas of how to cope...not who is to blame or for OW's to come here to try to dump misplaced guilt or shame on the couple who chose to remain together and rebuild their lives....nothing else matters in the big scheme of things...Hi Jen...eloquent and to the point as always. I'm so glad you are here to put things into perspective.Twiisty...you are absolutely remarkable. A much better person than I for I would pay the court costs for the finacee to adopt because I don't want to be burdened anymore. And that's the truth. I don't care if OW's think I am a hateful witch for wanting to be released from this nightmare. So what? Who cares? Not me. I would drop to my knees in thanks if I were so lucky to have the OC issue just disappear through adoption to make my life easier and free from the reminders, memories and heartache. I would LOVE to get out of this obligation, extortion, financial burden, responsibility, theft, embezzlement. Poof.CATNIP =^^=

Hey Catnip!I would pay in a heartbeat...my H said the same thing, if "fiance-man" wants to adopt and they didn't have the money...we would pay ALL the costs....My H is cynical in the fact that they probably want the tax-free income that comes in monthly...of course, my H knows OW and her fiance's type better than me....I just wish that OC would be adopted...I think she deserves two parents that love her and know that even though she was conceived under dire circumstances...all parties involved did the RESPONSIBLE thing....(since we all know that birth control IF and WHEN used isn't 100% reliable...in our case BOTH OW and H were idiots for not USING IT.)JMHO,
Twiisty.....Ok....off for real now....heh heh.....got to have a conference with my Bi-polar Cub's teacher....apparently Teach and my cub are at war again and we are in the process of changing meds....

Twiisty, Jenny, Catnip, Not much time lately for a lot of words but "thankyou" for your telling it like it is .As far as SG goes, if you care to look up some of ow antics follow my story from May until now.This issue has me worn out.BTW I was just offered health insurance through work at 100% coverage....now guess who may benefit from it? Ow whose other kids have no health insurance! Infuriates the hel* out of me!!!! Ow doesn't work. She's f'n wealthy....geeeeeezzzzeeee.....Of course h will pay THAT premium and if it's put into place ow will have to stay in the "network" or pay things herself!Gotta run...steak on the grill and a "cold one" waiting......uh er...beer....cold one....not H! lolDebi

Saved by Grace and Skittles,Thanks so much for chiming in on my thread. It's very refreshing to hear from women who disagree with a thread topic and aren't charging what aweful bytches BS's are who don't have a "relationship" with the OC.Thank you for being respectful in your delivery. It's all anyone can hope for in this very public forum.Catnip, Zebra, Unsure and Twiisty (did I forget anyone on this thread) glad to hear from you all. It had been forever since I started a thread, I knew I could depend on you to spring on and give me some thoughts.I guess I just get so frustrated by people popping in to tell us that we are sooooo dead wrong for the choices we make. True, it would be so great if the utopian theories worked in real life. They don't because real life has kinks. There are real personalities and character flaws at work.Twiisty... you are soooooo right. You can't miss what you don't have. If many of the OW in our lives would spend their energy loving themselves and their child instead of trying to find ways to, like in my case... get my H to come over, find excuses to call H, etc. they would probably attract a loving man who WANTS to be a father to her child. Imagine that... a man who wants to love a child as oppose to a man who is pushed into a corner just because his sperm was involved. (btw, I too am one of those BS's who's OW has admited to lying about birth control and planned her pregnancy to "get" H.)What about the many many single mothers that adopt (fathers too i might add). The adoption system obviously doesn't have a problem with single parents raising productive and healthy children.... so what's wrong with OW doing the same.If they wanted to (like Twiisty) they can do it and do it right without the bio-dad. The problem is... they don't want to. My OW just recently admited to a mutual friend that even after over a year of H being home and re-dedicated to me and our family she still holds out hope he'll in her words "see the light" and come back to her.It's all a matter of will and being committed. Just like a single mom who refuses to go on state aid. It's so easy to just sign up and get your EBT card and WIC, but so many single women refuse to go that route and choose not to. Many of these OW can choose to raise healthy productive children ALONE if they want to.Oh, one last thing.... i wonder do any OW go to the internet boards where mothers who have given their children up for adoption go for support and tell them how wrong they are for denying their own flesh and blood????? I guess that only applies to, as they like to call them.... "dead beat dads."
To the OW who posted on this thread... what do you think of Genesis 21? No one really commented on it. Just curious.Again ladies, enjoyed the dialoge. Hope to talk to ya'll in real time soon.Z.

I'd like to add my 2cents in....even though it seems the topic is headed for the thread gravesite. Someone in this thread mentioned how some ow are victimized by MM. I'm not sure I understand that point and need some clarification. The way I see it is this...if you hear the words 'I'm married, but..' shouldn't personal integrity and dignity prevail? I'm not sure I understand how someone is victimized when they have ALL the information they need to know up front to make an informed, careful decision. I'm not talking about situations in which a blatant lie is told....'I'm not married, I'm a bachelor', I'm talking about the situations in which the fatal decision to be w/ a MM is made after the word 'but,' is uttered. In my situation, the xow has acted like a victim from day one. When I first met with her I admit I kind of felt sorry for the lies he told her. But, it was shortly after that she had the baby and proceeded to send a letter to my house accusing my H of taking what was precious and turning it into a nightmare. It was then I realized the selfishness involved from not only my H, but her as well. How dare she send a letter to my house expressing her pain. Forgive me, but I don't think any promises before God, family and friends were made, so I'm not sure how she, or any xow can feel like a victim.It may sound harsh, but in the interest of healing (all the way around) wouldn't be best to view these women as people who CHOSE WRONG??? That's the only way they can get any value from such a painful lesson.I may sound harsh, but I'm not. I understand everyone makes mistakes they later regret. But accepting your role in your personal pain, and (God forbid) APOLOGIZING for choosing to ignore the obvious is the path to reconciliation and understanding, especially for the benefit of the OC caught in all the pain and resentment. I think the bottom line (at least in my post) is accountability. Everyone is accountable for their actions. And then, understanding that even if being a part of the child's life is deemed appropriate for a particular situation, the understanding all the way around that EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT INTEREST TO PROTECT IN THAT SITUATION, THUS CONFLICT AND SOME PAIN IS INHERENT. I speak from experience. My H and I decided to accept the child in our lives. And believe it or not, we've had to fight like he** for the right to be a part of her life INDEPENDENT of her mother. Just like someone mentioned previously, she's tried to control everything from the get go, but (going back to accountability) never accepted her role in making HER motherhood experience a nightmare. Therefore, she's tried everything in her power to discourage independent contact with the baby. Now that we pay cs, and the judge has told her to her face that she was being unreasonable, she's...and I quote, "Glad the whole visitation situation is in the works..."
What a load of bs. If she's so glad, why did it take 16 months, a lawyer, a judge, and a mediator to help her see my H had a right to spend time with his daughter without her influence?For those of you considering contact, let me tell you from experience, choose carefully. If you're not the type that can see bs coming a mile away, then you better think twice.I think it was best said by catnip....Your marriage comes first. If you and your spouse are not on the same page, then your marriage may not survive the manipulation games of the xow.

Zebra,
Very well put. You sound like you are doing very good. You go girl.Matthew,
How has things been going are you guys able to have the little one yet alone? I think what you had to say about seeing the bs coming from a mile away is just the reason us that choose no contact do. We could see it coming from 10 miles away thats the major reason no contact.
with love flowerseed

All of you speak of God so much in here, but then you post these kinds of topics. Do you think God would let a child die just because of the circumstances surrounding it's birth, who the child's mother or father is, or how anyone else feels about the entire existance of the child?
No, God wouldn't do that.Some of you women get so upset/angry because the "OW" doesn't want you involved with the child. Let's face it, some of you women shouldn't come in contact with ANY child looking at some of the things you have said in your postings. Why do you put these mothers through hel* insisting that the relationship the father has with the child is contingent on the relationship YOU have with the child? Again, taking into account what some of you have said in your postings regarding your feelings toward these children, DO YOU BLAME THE MOTHERS FOR NOT WANTING YOU AROUND?! These mothers can pick up on the negative feelings coming from you toward THEIR CHILD. For those of you that have children already, wouldn't you do anything necessary to keep them out of harm's way? Then, why do you expect these mothers to expose THEIR children to you, when you have been deemed as HARMFUL, possibly FATAL, to these kids. As far as all of you that get upset about paying CS, GET OVER IT! Your husbands should have thought about that before he ran around having sex with this other woman. The mother has a right to get CS for the child THEY created TOGETHER. Think about it, if you and your husbands divorce, are you going to go for CS for the children that HE created with YOU? Of course you will. Why? Because your children deserve to have want they need without a huge financial struggle.These scenarios are morbid, and all they are meant to do is insight evil thoughts regarding the "OC". Anyone who speaks of or thinks of hurting a child, ANY child, is in for some serious consequences later. Now don't get me wrong, there are some women out there that brought their situations on themselves, but so did your husbands. True, some women do go strictly for married men. BUT, DON'T ONLY QUESTION HER INTEGRITY, HE WAS TO BLAME ALSO.
I know its hard to believe for some of you, but stop justifying what HE did UNLESS you're going to justify what SHE did! I know none of you know my story, but I guess I'm just not ready to share that right now. When I do, you will understand why I feel the why I do. I said in a previous posting that I have been where you women are, and I have. So, before you try to get me outcasted listen to what I have to say with an open mind. All of you may not LIKE it, but if it doesn't apply then don't worry about it-just read it and move on or reply with your own words of wisdom.

whateverouwant,
I think you missed the point reread.In my case we fit in Senario no. 2: my h choose his family over the ow and her child deal with it.[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: flowerseed ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>All of you speak of God so much in here, but then you post these kinds of topics. Do you think God would let a child die just because of the circumstances surrounding it's birth, who the child's mother or father is, or how anyone else feels about the entire existance of the child?
No, God wouldn't do that.<hr></blockquote>did i say that i am God like and could even possibly save ALL children? no. did i say that God expects me to save ALL children? no. did i say i wanted oc to die? no Get real. I just said that I, and any other women, inherently chooses what's best for her child, and even in the most dire circumstances would choose life for her own child over the life of another's.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Some of you women get so upset/angry because the "OW" doesn't want you involved with the child. Let's face it, some of you women shouldn't come in contact with ANY child looking at some of the things you have said in your postings.<hr></blockquote>You couldn't possibly be referring to the many great moms here who choose a better life and happiness of a whole family for their children, rather than subject them to some very disturbed women (as proven by their behaviour). <blockquote>quote:<hr>Why do you put these mothers through hel* insisting that the relationship the father has with the child is contingent on the relationship YOU have with the child? <hr></blockquote>obviously you too have not grasped the idea that if a man chooses to stay with his family and chooses contact with OC that the wife is going to be at visitation with her husband whether or not the poor helpless victim of a OW likes it or not... unless of course she can be proven unfit. Some OW just hate that the husband/wife is a package deal. I guess this should have been considered before making such a bad decision of sleeping with a married man. Any man worth his salt and is serious about mending and rebuilding his family wouldn't dream of keeping a seperate life.. just so the OW "feels" better about it. And why should he take time away from his family to appease the OW's demands on who can be present during visistation. Riduclous. So if OW gets a boyfriend, can the father demand that boyfriend never be around the child? what if OW chooses to marry? can he demand that the child be turned over to him so that new hubby has no contact with child?? again... riduclous. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Again, taking into account what some of you have said in your postings regarding your feelings toward these children, DO YOU BLAME THE MOTHERS FOR NOT WANTING YOU AROUND?! These mothers can pick up on the negative feelings coming from you toward THEIR CHILD.<hr></blockquote> guess what... they have a choice.... don't demand cs and stay out of the MM's life... and raise the kid on your own. thus... no visitation issues. many OW haven chosen this route and are quite happy. <blockquote>quote:<hr>For those of you that have children already, wouldn't you do anything necessary to keep them out of harm's way? Then, why do you expect these mothers to expose THEIR children to you, when you have been deemed as HARMFUL, possibly FATAL, to these kids.<hr></blockquote> I am keeping my children away from a woman with no morals.... four children all by different daddies. I'm teaching them that actions have consequences. Get pregnant.. and you may be flying solo. babies don't win the man. <blockquote>quote:<hr>As far as all of you that get upset about paying CS, GET OVER IT! Your husbands should have thought about that before he ran around having sex with this other woman. The mother has a right to get CS for the child THEY created TOGETHER. Think about it, if you and your husbands divorce, are you going to go for CS for the children that HE created with YOU? Of course you will. Why? Because your children deserve to have want they need without a huge financial struggle.<hr></blockquote>no one has debated whether or not child support is warranted. not in this thread anyway... we all believe that it is our legal obligation. But, and i do mean but.. the law is lopsided. If a woman decides to give her child up for adoption... and the adoption is successful and legal... she has no legal obligation of financial support. Unfortunatley men don't have this legal right... yet. <blockquote>quote:<hr>These scenarios are morbid, and all they are meant to do is insight evil thoughts regarding the "OC". Anyone who speaks of or thinks of hurting a child, ANY child, is in for some serious consequences later. <hr></blockquote>did anyone talk of physically hurting OC. NO. But the OW hurt that child the minute she allowed him to be brought into this world. Yes the father helped with his sperm. But she had the final say in whether or not she slept with him and concieved a child in the process. She hurts that child by allowing it to be raised in a fatherless family. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I know none of you know my story, but I guess I'm just not ready to share that right now. When I do, you will understand why I feel the why I do. I said in a previous posting that I have been where you women are, and I have. So, before you try to get me outcasted listen to what I have to say with an open mind. All of you may not LIKE it, but if it doesn't apply then don't worry about it-just read it and move on or reply with your own words of wisdom. <hr></blockquote>i did read... these are my words of reply. i think you were off base and so i responded. respectfully of course.Z.[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]

WHATEVERYOUWANT..........go back to gloryb!

Zebrababy, Thank you for saying what I was thinking. You are a classy lady! Take care,
Why[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: why ]

Hi zebrababy! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thank you for this thread. I'm thinking about my situation and wanted to add my perspective, if you don't mind... I WISH I could get my oldest son (OC) to provide his input. Then again, he would just be one OC out here with his own unique opinion...Let me first say that there are many many damaged children out there in the world living without fatherly influence in their lives, whose parents were and are married, not just OCs. Deadbeat dads are not confined to just WS's.So who is responsible for the damage done to those innocent kids? The mom, for simply giving birth to them? I would venture to say that there are a LOT of single moms out there who are actually married and whose husbands actually live in the home! What's the difference if you are married and your husband is a million miles away emotionally? He doesn't help around the house or help with the kids? Does that mom hurt her kids by giving them life when she knew what SHE was or is married to?These problems are not just confined to adulterous situations.I wish I could have my son answer whether he feels I hurt him by giving him a chance to live with me. I wonder what his answer would be... Only he could really say?From MY perspective, I can tell you that ANY child whose parents are not devoted to them in every way possible gets hurt.ANY child whose parents reject them for whatever reason feels hurt. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by zebrababy:
Get real. I just said that I, and any other women, inherently chooses what's best for her child, and even in the most dire circumstances would choose life for her own child over the life of another's.<hr></blockquote>I agree, only in my case, I was an OW giving birth to an OC. I would like to think that my circumstances were dire--unwed, unplanned pregnancy by a married man with his own family to raise. I'm sorry, but I was not going to carry that baby for 9 months, and give it away to an "intact family"--even tho that would have been the moral thing to do. And further, with no guarantee that that "intact family" would remain intact... Remember, I was a silly OW, with NO MORALS at that time. I did what I thought was best for me and for my baby, and with the knowledge that I possessed at that time. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by zebrababy:
guess what... they have a choice.... don't demand cs and stay out of the MM's life... and raise the kid on your own. thus... no visitation issues. many OW haven chosen this route and are quite happy. <hr></blockquote>I tried to make it on my own without bothering MM and his family for financial support. I couldn't do it. I didn't "bother" him for 5 years and we were struggling. I didn't think it was fair to "bother" him and his family, but it wasn't fair to OC, either. It was really difficult for me to file for CS because I was trying to forget that chapter of my life altogether. Couldn't do it and feel like I did all I could to help OC as his mother... I just didn't think it was fair to OC.I wasn't trying to make sure OC had what MM's kids had or have either. We lived in a 1BR apartment. OC had the bedroom, I slept on a sofabed in the living room. I tried my best to do it on my own without asking for CS. I really tried. I couldn't do it. Was I hurting OC? Not on purpose, but I guess I was by being so young and so poor. Did that make me an unfit mother? I don't think so.I can think of a lot of rich kids out there who are emotionally bankrupt because their rich parents didn't know how to secure them in their love.I think I was a pretty okay mom, but I could have done better. Today, OC is not what *I* was at his age. I gave him early on what I didn't have in my life--a relationship with God.What was my turning point? Giving birth to the OC. Did I hurt him? Maybe so. But GOD helped us both... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by zebrababy:
She hurts that child by allowing it to be raised in a fatherless family.<hr></blockquote>Okay, this is the part where I keep getting sort of stuck because there are a lot of us who were raised in fatherless situation, be it through our father's deaths, or divorce, or just a deadbeat dad, not just infidelity. All things considered, many children are hurt by MIA parents so all I'm saying is that you have to at least give OW the benefit of the doubt that she did not sit down and plan how she could purposely hurt her child.Even tho OW is of low moral character, it doesn't mean that she is incapable of having the heart of a mother who wants to at least love her child.A mother who wants to love a child whom she already knows will be rejected by the MM and his family simply because of the infidelity situation.A mother who wants to love a child because maybe she already had an abortion?A mother who wants to love a child whom she has already bonded with during her pregnancy and who cannot IMAGINE giving her baby away. Period.A mother who made a terrible, terrible mistake and who seeks forgiveness, not from people, cuz you can forget that! But from her God whom she also betrayed and cheated on herself...[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

BtDt,
That was beautiful and I know so heartfelt. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You made a WONDERFUL point about fatherless children. The quality and quantity of parenting has little to do with marital status sometimes, or even whether they live in the home. There are exceptions to every generality.In light of what the crashers are telling us, BinThere, do you condemn the MM for not equally parenting your son with you? Is that a crime? I repeat what zebra said: Know that the people who count don't judge you...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catnip: Just a reminder...this is not a debate forum to discuss what jerks our husbands are or what responsibilities and obligations they have to anyone. This forum is for Betrayed Spouses who are experiencing the confusion and pain of a troubled marriage in recovery and a place to share ideas of how to cope...not who is to blame or for OW's to come here to try to dump misplaced guilt or shame on the couple who chose to remain together and rebuild their lives....nothing else matters in the big scheme of things...<hr></blockquote>Excellent point made by catnip here!!! I hope that everyone understands this point. I'm sure the moderators hope that everyone understands this point, as well. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by whateveryouwant:
I know none of you know my story, but I guess I'm just not ready to share that right now. When I do, you will understand why I feel the why I do. <hr></blockquote>
whateveryouwant, until you are ready to share your story, I think that you should refrain from your own judgmental comments. Just my personal opinion, and NOT fueled by my personal situation - there are no OC (the OW who physically attacked me and then harassed me for months after my husband moved out to be with her is much too self-centered to consider giving that much of herself to a dependent human being). You may believe you have been where these people are, and maybe you have - but that does NOT give you leave to condemn them or judge them. The discussions on all of these forums are a form of therapy and release for many of us, and having someone come in and condemn us for releasing HERE the words and thoughts that build up inside us as we deal with our daily situations is distinctly unappreciated...Share with us what happened to you, and you will find that your opinions may be better respected. Withhold, and keep your opinions to yourself. Oh, and if you want to know MY story, do a search on my user id... I've been here a long time.[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: terri ]

BTDT, my old friend. I think we sparred and made up once before. I was encouraged to hear from you. I knew you and a few others would take this thread to heart.And from the first post on this thread.... I made the point to say that ALL mothers choose their child. Not just BS. I have no ill feeling for OW for choosing her child. It's human nature. The very point I tried to make is... that same OW cannot fault the BS for choosing her own children too. One of the beautiful things about our country (for now) is the freedom of choice. BS's should respect the OW's choices and OW should respect BS's choices.Now......the second senario addressed father's choices. I was merely suggesting that fathers have the same choices... only restricted by law on financial obligations. Why can't OW respect those choices too?And your points on fatherless children is valid. But for every child that grows up his primary care giver has ultimate contol on how she/he/they make him/her feel about the family "type" they grow up in. About my statement about OW hurting her child by growing up in a fatherless home. I guess I should have expanded on that thought. What I was feeling was that if she chooses to make it a liablility for the child it will be. She can choose to focus on the positives of her loving that child and their relationship... or she can attempt to force an unwilling father to "be involved." A fatherless home can be a positive if the mother so chooses. Especially if the option of a father is "half [censored]" or detrimental.Bottom line. The child's experiences and how he/she relates to their situation is in the hands of the primary care giver. OW or otherwise. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Okay, this is the part where I keep getting sort of stuck because there are a lot of us who were raised in fatherless situation, be it through our father's deaths, or divorce, or just a deadbeat dad, not just infidelity. All things considered, many children are hurt by MIA parents so all I'm saying is that you have to at least give OW the benefit of the doubt that she did not sit down and plan how she could purposely hurt her child.<hr></blockquote>I don't think that OW sit down and plan hurt for a child by getting pregnant. I do think that they often made decisions to have that child and don't consider what's best for it. And this comment mainly applies to those OW who get pregnant on purpose just to "get" the man. Just like many single women do with single men. Not just with MM.I guess I wish that after they make those bad decisions they would educate themselves on how they can make their particular experience and choice the best for the child. And not continue to use that child as a pawn or revenge tool.OW have such a great deal of power in how their children grow up thinking about where and how they came to be.My hope is that my OW in particular gets this point some day.Thanks again for jumping on the thread. I always look forward to your "spin" on things.Z.[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]

Hi zebrababy,
Again thanks for provoking us all to think about this from various angles. I'm sure I didn't even begin to cover what female WS moms go through (emotionally) when faced with an OC birth decision... My perspective is just a single OW with no other children. Married OW must also deal with the emotions of her husband and children and I cannot begin to imagine that sort of agony... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jenny:
...do you condemn the MM for not equally parenting your son with you? Is that a crime?...
<hr></blockquote>OC FORCES all WS's to consider their real priorities and try to regain some focus. (HOPEFULLY!) Unfortunately, there are some stories that involve multiple OCs... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I don't condemn MM for not being involved with OC in my case... How could MM be committed to me and OC when he needed so much work on improving his commitment to his own wife????? OMG! I'm like, get yourself and your family together before you try to parent MY kid! Take care of your own with all my blessings!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You know, let's all try to get back to square one and deal with our bad behavior that first led us to this unfortunate circumstance! Figure out what went wrong and THEN move forward...What makes anyone think that MM will be any better of a father to my OC than he was to his own family? In my case, I think the best thing MM could do to appease his guilt (if any), was to just pay OC and get on with his marriage. How this all has hurt his wife, I cannot address, but looking back on things through my perspective as a wife now--I KNOW I could not handle having contact with OW/OC. I don't think so at this point, anyway. OTOH, if my HUSBAND was conflicted about it, and really hurting with no contact, then I suppose I should step up and be the contact person to protect my marriage from OW. I would not bow out of it if my H was hurting and insisted on contact. If I decided to be a stepmom of OC, then it would be H in court, but me right there handling visitation pick ups and drop offs. It would be MY business and I would make it MY BUSINESS because it is my HUSBAND's business! OC would be in MY care in MY home interacting with MY children?! Hmph, I would make it my job to keep OW out of my family picture forever.I don't think it is a crime for MM and his wife deciding to fix what went wrong in their marriage.[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
I don't think it is a crime for MM and his wife deciding to fix what went wrong in their marriage.[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]<hr></blockquote>Thank you, BTDT...that's why we are here at Marriage Builders. Because the marriage ALWAYS xomes first before any child or OC, parent, sibling, friend, job...everything but God.It confounds me how we get off the track of what this forum is all about. I realize it has almost everything to do with crashers from glory b who want to phuque with our heads and make THEIR OC suddenly OUR problem. Blaming the victim. It is ridiculous. Cracks me up.And choices??!!!??? No one in my house has any choices, but the OW in NY gets to call all the shots, make all the decisions and the ONLY thing we get to do is pay the huge enormous big bucks as if she were a wife receiving alimony rather than a three weekend fling.BTW...since when does it cost a woman $1300 to feed a two year old and buy an outfit or two every month? I had three kids to raise and it certainly never cost me $1300 per month to feed and clothe them...collectively! The OC in our case must weigh 300 pounds by now and wears ermine sleepers.Sheesh...I guess I have issues tonight. Never mind. On a rant, got off the subject as usual...hahahaCatnip -^^= (lost a whisker)[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]

Yeah, I hear you catnip. Say, if you guys have time to lurk over on GQII, there was a little uproar when a gloryb poster came over to "see if the BS's here are as bad as she has heard..." What is up with that? Would you consider this person to be really interested in marriage building? I doubt it, cuz there was no mention of the basic concepts or anything, the person just seemingly wanting to antagonize, poke fun, taunt with silly questions and brag about being financially independent while collecting child support and accepting thousands of dollars from a married man to finance her home(?) (My sincere apologizies if I got her story wrong.) But since when was THAT considered financially independent?????? Oh well, maybe it's just me because I thought financially independent means you don't need other people's money... I found it very amusing when one of our computer savvy MBers actually went over to gloryb.com, copied the OWs post and pasted it into OW's own MB thread!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Too funny!Some OW say the most inflammatory stuff here, but oftentimes, when outraged BS's (from MB) post over there, their moderator erases it because they maintain that it's THEIR forum so they don't allow crashers. They take full advantage of their right to strictly maintain and support their own points of view.Evidently they must realize the "harm" crashers do on their board, so I often wonder why they can't show the same respect for marriage builders? Then again, I think it is good that MB doesn't delete anybody's posts, it gives newbies a chance to see who is really concerned about the harm infidelity causes and who is not.And, changing the screenname is not a way to disguise yourself either. Crashers have been located by their server and some have even been exposed by the way they type. MBers can even tell when posters are DRUNK! GO FIGURE!So MB doesn't NEED to "poof" out derrogatory posts. MBers simply leaves them exposed for all to see! I think that's cool...[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

BTDT,Excellent comparison!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to admit that if they delete any "negative" comments to their board, they aren't being open minded. I think that I have only seen the moderators here delete a few, and that was due to the horrible things that were being said about a particular member here. I have a feeling it may happen to another in the very near future! But there have been many, especially in the past year, who have no compassion for what the people here have been put through. And, before someone decides to "flame" what I just said, this board, as has been stated many times, is a place for those in this situation to come and vent, instead of taking it out on their H/W. It is kinda like writing an "I hate you" letter, then burning it. This board is supposed to be annonymous, therefore, a place to pour out your heart and soul, and get rid of the negative feelings.Sorry, I really just meant to tell BTDT that she made an excellent point.Love,Tigger

If you can stomach it, and ever visit gloryb.com, you will see a lot of "poof's" where the moderator has wiped out posts from (possible) MBers, mainly inflammatory BS's.I'm not being judgmental. I have no room to judge anyone by any means. It's just really really sad. It's VERY sad to see someone riding a train that is about to wreck yet they refuse to acknowledge their dead end to disaster! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]