Ok, I was in the shower after reading posts tonight and started thinking. So I thought I'd share.<p>Senario no. 1:<p>A building is burning. The firemen are holding babies out of the window to be caught by those down below. One of those children is yours. There is no possible way to catch both babies. You have to choose between your own and the other. Which do you choose???? Any warm blooded mother chooses her own. Same senario, OW is at the bottom of the building, does she choose the BS's child or her own? You know the answer. Does the BS expect her to sacrafice her own child to save the BS's? Why would she, the OW didn't choose the BS's child when she was making decisions about sleeping with their father, or when she was plotting to "steal" him away from his family.<p>Senario no. 2:<p>A small boating craft is sinking. There are two floating devices available. One big enough to hold two adults and one child, that one being the most seaworthy and guaranteed to float to safety. The other a smaller vessel, also big enough to hold two adults and one child, that one not so seaworthy and has a possiblilty to make it to shore... but no guarantees. A man must choose whom goes on the most seaworthy vessel with him. Who does he choose, the ow/oc or his wife and child? Does he choose the woman who lied to him about birth control and is using the child as a pawn to "win" the man, or does he choose his wife who has not lied throughout their marriage and the child he's grown to love and who knows and loves him?<p>Ladies.... never, ever feel bad about any of the choices you make for you or your family. Never feel like you have to defend your husband's choices either.<p>Know that the people who count don't judge you and most importantly God doesn't condemn you for your choices. <p>The proof is in his word:<p>Genesis 21:10-15<p>Forever humble in my relationship with God,
Z.<p>[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]</p>

Thanks Z, <p>That puts it so concisely....like Tigger's post...there is no "one size fits all"...we all have to seriously look at the WHOLE picture and think of what's best for our families and ALL children involved.<p>Thanks for putting it so eloquently,
Twiisty

zebrababy,
I am so glad that youdecided to post those scenerios and I'm also glad that you put "steal" in quotation marks because it is a relative term. No one can steal a person who is willing to go. Otherwise, that would be kidnapping. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] But seriously though, I can see both sides of the picture. I think it's important to remember that not all OWs were told the truth about the MMs home situation. OWs are not always the one doing the lying. I lurk a lot on this board but very rarely do I post and i have to agree that sometimes it seems as if a poster doesn't go with the flow of traffic they are considered nonsupportive and asked to leave. I understand that it's not productive to be antagonistic, but isn't it beneficial to let everyone voice there opinion? I know, you never say what you could or couldn't do in a situation until you've been in a situation but I personally could respect no man who would want nothing to do with their own flesh and blood. I know that an OC is not a part of a core family unit, but still, the OC IS a part of both parents. I guess that's why I read...it's just hard for me to comprehend the logic.

Thank you, Z, for providing such thought provoking logic.<p>Dear Grace<p>As a bio mom who gave up a son at birth, many think my sacrifice noble, even though I had nothing to do with my son all the time he was being raised by a couple in another part of the state. Why are bio mom's who make the decision to give their child up for adoption when they have no other option and cannot provide a home for their child heralded as unselfish and kind while a bio dad is a selfish jerk and heartless to give up their child to the OW and her support system, (if she has one...and if she doesn't, she is the selfish one for keeping the child, IMO) and return to his family of origin of many years of comitment? Why is he a cold hearted [censored] for not wanting to subject his distraught wife and children to more horror and injury than has already been caused? Why do these OW's INSIST on forcing the issue? Why do they not just move ahead and bear the consequences of their own actions (while forcing these consequences on their own child by keeping him/her) and accept the fact the only thing they can expect if they choose this route is financial support, which is quite a generous incentive these days? <p>This is just my opinion, Grace. And I certainly respect your POV as well. No one is going to force you off this forum for a differing opinion...if they did, I would have been forced off years ago because of my hard line opinions. We have never forced anyone off the forum for their opinion. In the past we have only forced off people who were obviously here to create ill will and reveled in hurting fragile members.<p>I see you feel that the MM should be 'involved' in the OC's life, and there are others here who share this view, and there are several here who have gone to great lengths to include the OC into their families and lives, most with disasterous results. I am not one of them, but I deeply admire the ones who can open their hearts and homes to child that is a constant reminder of the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage...they are angels on earth.<p>Welcome, Grace...and your opinions!<p>Catnip =^^=

I know up to this point I have only spoken on a professional level, but this time I will have to change that.<p>I agree with SBG, I have been through all of this in personal life and I deal with it quite a bit professionally. Many of the women involved have been mislead by the MM into thinking either they weren't married at all, separated and the divorce was ALMOST final, the marriage was hell to begin with, or something in order to gain the woman's confidence that the marriage was over. These women TRUSTED these men, and thought that they were being told the whole truth about the situation. <p>Rarely do I speak with a woman that actively got herself involved in an affair with a MM or a woman that TRIED to get pregnant by a MM. The baby, often, is a surprise. But too often I see the child from the affair bear the burden for the mistakes of the adults. The child IS a part of BOTH parents whether one of them was married to someone else or not.<p>Unfortunately, much of the time one of the women involved becomes VERY jealous of the other one, and that is probably the biggest problem I see. The adults forget that the person(s)in need of the most care is/are the child(ren)that are caught in the middle. They had no choice in whether or not to be involved, they were just thrown into the fire.

catnip, you brought up a very good point. You are correct, I do feel that an MM should be involved in an OC's life. But let me clarify...it's not just a MM, I think ANY man that helps to create a child should help take care of the child. But like i said earlier, you can't say what you would or would not do in a situation unless you have been in that situation. I know there are many loving people out there who cannot have children of their own and would love to adopt a child, but then there is also that child's feelings to consider too...I think that if I were an adopted child, no matter how well the adoptive parents treated me, I would still want a relationship with my birthparents. Same with an OC. Yes the core family is innocent and so is the OC (IMO) and the CHILD should not be penalized b/c of what the mother chose to do. I'm going to stop now b/c I don't want to seem antagonistic myself.

Again, I must agree with SBG. She is absolutely right when she said that no CHILD should be punished due to the decisions of their parents. That means ANY child, regardsless of the circumstances surrounding their conception or anything thereafter. If you can contribute to the conception of a child than you can take care of the needs of that child - financially, emotionally, and physically. That is the respectable thing to do and should be done by both parents, unless we want a world full of Timothy McVeigh's and Jeffery Dahmer's.

hello,
I would have to disagree about wanting a realtionship with your bio parents. My H was adopted and he says that was the best thing that had happen to him. His parents were dirt poor and already had 5 to take care of. He knows who is bio mom is and does not want anything to do with her. And his adopted parents have passed away.

Skittles & SBG<p>I don't know your story or history. But I'll give you mine. exOW in my case actually told me (while she was preg) that if she knew I had a baby she wouldn't have gotten pregnant or would have had and abortion. OC and my D are almost 9 months apart my D being older. Once I found out about the affair and possible OC I immediatly filed for a "D" H begged and pleaded for a second chance. <p>I later found out from exOW that she didn't tell my H about the pregnancy until she was 5 1/2 months. H ended the relationship before she found out she was preg. This is an exOW who admits she purposely got pregnant and lied about taking birth control pills. H still lies (maybe he is or isn't I wasn't there) and says the condom broke. <p>After all of this I decide that if OC is my H's I would support contact. I thought I wouldn't respect my H if he choose otherwise. I pushed him to take the DNA test, I pushed him to pay CS once the results where in. I wanted to do the right thing by OC. When H mentioned contact and exOW found out I would be involved she attack me not my H at every angle. Even lied and had me falsly arrested. (the truth came out and the charges were dropped but not until I paid money I couldn't afford to a lawyer) This was not an exOW who didn't know my H was married, one of her friends called me at work and told me about the affair when I confronted them they both lied. She supposedly had a boyfriend and would never mess with a MM. <p>OC is 13 months old DNA results were in when she was 2 or 3 months H still has not had visitation because I can't be included. These woman screw a married man and then turn against BS's. Everyone makes mistakes but when do you finally say I screwed up I have to do what's best for my child? Tomorrow we go to court becasue exOW sued H for visitation with OC. This will be our second attempt we have a lawyer this time maybe her eyes will be open and she will stop trying to use OC as a pawn then again maybe they won't. There are two sides to every coin. There are men and women who truly accept OC's in their lives but the poor OC suffers because of the exOW hatred towards the BS.<p>Tomorrow I'll sit in court and be the supportive wife while exOW and her sister hurl insults my way in Spanish. I flipped out and lost it last time when she and sister physically came after me. The only time she's seen my feathers ruffled. I read Psalms Chapter 11 through chpter 17. It has good information for those being attacked unjustly. I'm praying and hoping I can ignore them this time.<p>I wasn't going to go to court to try and make things easier for my H. He got off work today came in the bedroom and said he missed me and needs me in court with him. He said I want you there and I need you there. So I'll be there for him supporting him knowing I'll be attacked at every angle for showing my face. Even though as his wife of 10 years I have a right to be there. What do you guys say about someone in a situation like mine. Or a few of the other members of MB who support contact with OC. I know I'll support my H either way contact or no contact. He's a great father to our three children and now a great husband to me. <p> I try not to blame exOW antics on OC but they are hard to seperate sometimes. exOW's have a responsiblity every woman does, when they bring a child in this world without giving the father a chance to decide if they want or don't want to be a part of this child life. If the father decides not to be in OC life too bad that's the risks you take when you have a baby by a married man which I wouldn't do. <p>Catnip-<p>"As a bio mom who gave up a son at birth, many think my sacrifice noble, even though I had nothing to do with my son all the time he was being raised by a couple in another part of the state. Why are bio mom's who make the decision to give their child up for adoption when they have no other option and cannot provide a home for their child heralded as unselfish and kind while a bio dad is a selfish jerk and heartless to give up their child to the OW" <p>I couldn't agree more. <p>Z- As you can see a lot is on my mind thinking about going to court tomorrow and wondering about the outcome thanks for this post it allowed me a needed vent. I miss chatting with you. Ya Sistah in recovery.<p>
Unsure

No one is 'punishing' the OC, except perhaps the OW for keeping it.<p>The OW is the one who insists on calling all the shots from beginning to end, from getting pregnant, to staying pregnant, to having it, to keeping it, then after the OC is here, the OW insists on dictating who gets to be involved with OC and who is excluded from the list. The Betrayed Spouse is usually excluded which leaves the MM less than enthusiastic or inspired about having a relationship of any kind with the OC because all he wants to do is make amends to his wife and children, fix his marriage and restore the family and be with his children...the ones he has a history with.<p>The BS here on this site are focused on their marriages, their children, their families, their history and busy with their lives and are not all that concerned about the OW or OC. The OC is not OUR child ...we had nothing to do with it. I guess that's why we don't feel any guilt and complaints from OW's are usually met with indifference. We don't car what they think or how they feel. I am also very busy and so far removed from the situation now, that I am just assuming the OW is taking care of the OC and that's that. I don't hate the OC nor do I wish it ill will. It's just not my child and I just feel about it as I would any stranger/child.<p>A Priest at Retrouvaille once told me that my husband had "Absolutely no obligation to OW or OC except financial..." that his first obligation was to me and to the marriage. That in the Scripture it reminds us over and over that nothing is more important than the marraige, first and foremost. I guess this is why this site is called Marriage Builder and why this is all we really focused on.<p>Men are so different than we are. We want to 'nest' and nurture while men are not born with that same instinct to do this. Their nurturing comes with time and involvement, but when a man is married and his first obligation is to his wife and children from that marriage and he has all this history with them, he just can't deny his children and spread himself so thin he doesn't have time for them anymore because he has to chase around and comply with the OW's demands to take care of OC, too, especially when OW won't allow BS to be involved in OC's life.<p>OW's, as a rule, are determined to manipulate and control the situation and call all the shots. They often become hostile and angry when they can't get a reaction and retaliate or try to guilt the MM and his wife, who couldn't care less.<p>It's just too much work and we all have such busy lives and so many other things that take precedence, that the OW's should just focus on their OC and let their obsession with guilting the MM or his spouse go, because it just isn't going to work or make any difference. We just have to focus on the marrige and our own children.<p>I know there are those who will agree with your POV and I can see your side if you look at it from the aspect the 'child' takes precedence over the marriage, but it does not. At least not in the Scriptures or at Retrouvaille. Or in my house.<p>Good luck to you, though, and thanks for your input. It is certainly an interesting take on it.<p>Catnip =^^=

In my line of work, I see all to often men that decide it's an option whether or not they want to be a parent to the children that they have created. I highly disagree with this line of thinking. And what about the wives I see making it hard for the mothers of these kids?<p>Reverse the situation. Do you think that the man would shun the child if the wife had no say in the situation? Probably not. The majority of the fathers I come in contact with put up a front in front of their wives regarding these children and how they feel about them. They say they are doing it to either spare the wife or spare themselves the hell they would face from the wife if they appeared to love the child.<p>Bottom line - I feel it's NEVER a choice to take the responsibility that comes with a child YOU had a part in creating. Most of these women just want the men to do right by their child.<p>As for the birth control issue, birth control never had a 100% success rate. My sister was on Depo and still got pregnant, a friend was on the pill and still got pregnant. Nothing is 100%.

Well, since you asked i don't mind telling you that I personally do not agree with an OW purposely trying to plan a pregnancy by an MM or any woman for that matter purposely trying to plan a pregnancy with a man who she is not certain would WANT to be in that child's life. HOWEVER I do feel that ANYONE who has sex KNOWS that there is ALWAYS a chance, however small, that sex can lead to pregnancy. I just really feel strongly about that. It doesn't matter if someone says they are on the pill or not---you can never know if that person is taking the pill correctly and even then sometimes...SOMETIMES, it STILL can fail. Same thing with using condoms. there is ALWAYS a chance that the condom could break. So I feel like if you are going to engage in sexual intercourse with a person, you should be willing to accept the consequences that come along with that choice. i think that if you don't want to risk an unplanned pregnancy-DON'T HAVE SEX. If you don't want to risk catching a sexually transmitted infection/disease DON'T HAVE SEX. In reading this and other boards, I have learned that you can never be sure about anyone...even if you are married to them. I have an aunt who is 36 yrs old and had a tubal ligation about 8 years ago. She is 2 months pregnant now. NOTHING is 100% guaranteed. As far as an OW keeping the baby regardless of if the man wants to be in the childs life, i still feel that that man should have realized that by engaging in sex with someone other than his spouse, something unfortunate could happen. Ans as far as your OW not wanting the OC to have a relationship with it's father just because the BS will be involved in the child's life, I think that's just as crazy. That's a conequence the OW should have to deal with. But to say that a man shouldn't be involved because he didn't want it and because it would impair his core family then I DO place blame on that man as well because he should not have laid down with someone he didn't want to have a child with. And again, this is not meant to antagonize, it is JMHO.

Well said SBG! I agree with you for the most part. The only statement I question the one about the mother having to deal with the wife b/c she is married to the father. I don't feel the 2 women should ever have to come in contact with each other at all unless it is acceptable to both of them. The man is the one that spread himself too thin, deal with it. Learn to separate.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>HOWEVER I do feel that ANYONE who has sex KNOWS that there is ALWAYS a chance, however small, that sex can lead to pregnancy. I just really feel strongly about that.<hr></blockquote><p>Ow always are saying that statement.<p>Sort of a clandestine wish to conceive while boinking MM.<p>You may be right when you say that MM isn't involved because of W.<p>Everything in life is a trade-off. <p>MM usually sees no end to the horror he caused W when ow/oc constantly stir the pot. It is MM who makes decisions on protecting what they cherish most. After putting W and families through so much pain, the oc is then put up for "adoption" so to speak. It'd done everyday. <p>As in giving up a child for "adoption" you may always remember oc, but you did the best you could in a bad situation.<p>We intend to move past this pain together into the future. To continue to share our lives together before this happened w/o further "reminders" always in our face.<p>It's what "we" chose. It's what will work for us.<p>Oc will grow up someday in spite of us or H.<p>JMHO.....

zebra, nice hearing from you. I'm sorry your thread took this yucky turn. <p>skittles, you imply that your job involves some sort of professional counseling?? Two thoughts on that: <p>One, the type of XOW some wives on this board are dealing with will NOT be seen in any counseling office! They are generally of low class with serious behavioral and psychological problems, no money or motivation to get their heads screwed on straight!! Yes, some OW are victimized by MM, but some women ARE predatory for a variety of ugly reasons, not the least of which is money. Let's not white-wash all womanhood, okay? <p>Two, I truly hope you are not counseling married couples, because no decent marriage counselor should recommend that the recovering married couple "learn to separate" around the XOW. What kind of c**p is that?? The same attitude that allowed the Affair to happen in the first place!<p>EX: Our (8mo pregnant) XOW told me by phone after DDay that she "just thought of [H and I] as separate people." Now, this woman was a "friend" at my home on a weekly, often daily basis, sharing child-care, going to parks and community events with ME and my child, etc. etc. etc. To allow her and my H to continue any solo contact with each other would allow the XOW to continue her BIZARRO train of thought, that she could treat us like we weren't even married!! No, it is NOT appropriate for MM solo contact with XOW! It utterly destroys rebuilding trust in the marriage. <p>Who else can be the contact person IF there is to be any visitation with OC? Obviously, the wife/step-mom! <p>I can't believe I let myself get so mad over such stupidity as this. Some people will Never *get it* no matter what we say. <p>If any of you who like to "politely disagree" about OC are for REAL, I challange you to REALLY look at some of our situations (I'll give you mine!!) and you explain how your lovely utopian ethics would honestly work in it. You don't want to do that.<p>Thoroughly disgusted, sorry I looked at the board,
Jenny<p>[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Jenny ]</p>

Jenny, I don't knock you for your opinion and what works for you and your situation. Just like you shouldn't knock me for my opinion. That's all it is...an opinion. And just like you feel that I will never *get it* in your way of thinking, by the same token, you will never *get* my way of thinking, and I've never tried to make anyone think like me---I just expressed my POV. I think if you were not in the situation yourself you might just be a little less biased.Again, that's just my opinion.

In my case, OW told me to my face that she knew my hubby was married and I quote her, " I am madly in love with your husband and you and your children mean sh** to me..." that is a direct quote to me. <p>Why my husband did what he did remains a mystery to me and him and we are talking about it in counseling...the closest thing we can get to an answer besides "stupidity" is the fact that he was ruled by lust. It was sex for the moment. I will never understand it, as I know the dynamics of my situation. OW deliberately got pg with my H's child to try to force him in her life.<p>My H wanted to give the child up for adoption. We understand that OW doesn't necessarily feel that choice was best for her. We do our part by paying our financial obligation and are praying that OW's fiance would want to adopt the child. Not to get out of our obligation, but that OC deserves two parents WHO LOVE EACH OTHER. Not a mother who tried to get a MM away from his family and a bio-dad who admits he was wrong for what he did and forced fatherhood didn't do well on him...and before the condom issue hits the board again, I throw that in his face everyday...even to the detriment of my marriage. I do think my H is an idiot for his three incidences of sex with OW. <p>I am at peace with my decision. My H made peace with his decision. We are moving on with our lives and with NO CONTACT. I respect others who feel that they should have contact. I will not be maligned for the choices I make. As it stands, OC and I are the innocent parties here. OW has alot to answer to her child for. I do look for the day that OC comes looking for us. When she does she will have a journal waiting for her that I write in to her...explaining why, etc.... for the choices that we had to make...It isn't just about OC...it's about our four children of the home too.<p>There are no easy answers. What works for one family may not work for another. Each relationship has it's own uniqueness. I know my H and I are soulmates. I know this is the worse thing we have to go through at this point in our lives. <p>I admire those that can open their home and heart to OC and try to withstand the crud that OW throws their way. I admire the OW's that try to work with MM's and their families to ensure as much as they can peace with everybody. I admire and hurt for the Men who were betrayed by their wives and are accepting or trying to accept the baby as result of infidelity.<p>There are no easy answers in life. I prayed, and I prayed and my H prayed and we feel that this is best for us. I dont' owe anybody an explanation for what is best for my family. But I know in our case NO CONTACT is best for all involved.<p>At the risk of sharing personal history, I offer the following:<p>I was legitimately married to a man for 6 years. We had two beautiful daughters together. Things were rough in the marriage, but for the most part I was content and happy. I tried to be the good wife and mother I knew how to be. That didn't stop my ex-hubby from cheating on me nor naming my second daughter after his OW. I find this out in hindsight...I love my daughter, it's not her fault she carries OW's first name.<p>My ex-hubby abandoned me and my two babies and left us homeless. I had to go on welfare. I was a single mother of two babies then, 18 months and 2 months old. I walked those floors by myself. I stayed up and studied for exams while picking lice out of my daughter's head that she picked up from daycare...praying that I got all the nits out of my own hair...(that was horrid for me...I was a CLEAN mother). I came from an upper middle class family and my family disowned me because I had to go on welfare at that time.<p>I knew I was abandoned legitimately by a legally married husband. I became a single mother, and not by choice. Did I whine? NO. I got screwed over in divorce court (remember, I got $200 a month for two kids now) and still waiting for the health insurance my ex is supposed to send since 08/98.<p>For the almost three years I raised my two girls by myself, I never said a negative word about their father. They knew who he was...they visited with his parents. They saw pictures. They knew that "Daddy B" was out there. I didn't pollyanna it and made it look glamorous, but I didn't bad mouth the man either. How my children were going to be raised was up to me.<p>He was bad about remembering birthdays and holidays and never called or wrote. He got remarried. His wife tried in the beginning to make contact, but that died off too. I left the door open for them, but I wasn't going to force the issue. I went on with my life and my children never once cried "Boo hoo, I was rejected by my father...."
I never let them think that. If they asked me a question about him, I was honest. I told them the good about their daddy. For the bad, I told them that Daddy "B" had a problem (Bi-polar) and that when he's ready, he will do what he has to do. They were satisfied with that. <p>I married my H now. My girls know "DADDY" as their daddy. Not Daddy "B". My H, now pays 100% for my children. WE just now started getting my mere $200 a month as my ex's wages are garnished.<p>My girls are ok. My whole point in sharing this is this....<p>How our children look at this is how we raise them. I cannot speak for our OW. I doubt she would tell OC the truth that she did in fact, deliberately go after a married man (she told me she did!)
If she was smart, she would go on with life. Raise her child with love. When the qustions come, answer as best as you can. I know for a fact that OW and my H don't know each other well. He doesn't know her middle name or birthdate...OW didn't know stuff about my H. <p>My question is this...two people who barely know each other...you are going to raise a child together? Co-parent? It wouldn't work for us. We don't want to know OW any more than we have to. I honestly believe and with strong, deep conviction that my husband truly made the biggest and worse mistake of his life. He only gets "one get out of jail free" card with me. There is more to this OW/H relationship I don't share with y'all because that just me/h/ and ow's business.<p>But I cant tell you this...she did go after him. My H is a jerk for cheating on me. I want to beat my H for what he did to me and how he hurt me. TIme will heal that. I do have a problem with a woman who wanted what she could not have and so chose selfishly to have a child. I understand that not all OW's operate that way and I apologize to the OW's that lurk or whatever who were genuinely lied to. I KNOW my Husband...all 16 years worth. I know when he grabs my hand whether he's gonna kiss it or stick my finger in his nose (an old gesture of affection). I can tell that by his mere touch and I can forewarn him that he better not do it.<p>OW doesn't know the H that I know. She and H only knew the "little bubble" that Dr. Harley wrote about in "surviving an affair"...They only knew the little bubble that was carved out for sex. That's all it was about. SEX. Ow wanted more. I have to look at my H everyday and know that he was weak in one area that men are weak in...sex.<p>That doesn't excuse my H's behavior. But my H showed true remorse. He wanted to do the right hing in giving the OC a better chance at life through adoption as abortion was not an option. OW chose to keep the child. She has that right. As I was a single mother, I can understand the heartache and the loliness she will go through. I do not envy her. As I made a choice to marry and got dumped by my legitimate hubby...I made the best of my situation and survived.<p>It's all in how we raise the children. It's all in how we want our children to view the world. <p>Interestingly, my ex- showed up after 8 years last January to see the girls. I have a rare photo of him and his wife with my two girls. The girls were excited to see him. They are 8 and 6 now. They never held it against him that he wasn't there for them. That he forgot their birthdays or holidays. They were just glad to see him. They even thought Miss "C" their step-mother was nice. I thought Miss "C" was nice and spent hours at my kitchen table with tea ironing out some isssues. <p>I am not a mean bitter person. I try to work with everybody. I would even have tried with OC in my life. But when an OW tells you that your children means SH** to her...that tends to put me in a self-preservation mode.<p>I will keep praying. I will keep moving on. I will pray that ideally that OC will be adopted. WE would gladly pay the court costs for her to be adopted by fiance-man if they can't afford it. NOT TO GET OUT OF OUR OBLIGATION, but because every child deserves people who will love and accept them, regardless of circumstances.<p>That's my input in this. I will go back to lurking again, I suppose.<p>Again, I value everybody's different point of views...here is mine...from yet another perspective.<p>Hugs to y'all........
Twiisty
*whew*

SbyG said: "I just expressed my POV. I think if you were not in the situation yourself you might just be a little less biased."<p>You're right, Saved! I AM biased by my experiences (not that you have any idea what my biases are), and that is WHO this board is for: people experiencing children as the result of affairs, people rebuilding their marriages. Since you don't seem to be coping with that, why are you here? <p>Again, you aren't trying out your utopian ideals on a real-life situation, are you?????? They are but hot air. <p>The real kudos goes not only to the betrayed spouses who are able to accept the OC in their lives (applause), but also to those who are in pain for having to shut the OC out, sometimes for very good reasons.

twisty,
You are one strong woman. You've been through a ton and my hat's off. I know you're going to make it, so hang in there!<p>(hi catnip)<p>May goodness always prevail,
J

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Interestingly, my ex- showed up after 8 years last January to see the girls. I have a rare photo of him and his wife with my two girls. The girls were excited to see him. They are 8 and 6 now. They never held it against him that he wasn't there for them. That he forgot their birthdays or holidays. They were just glad to see him. They even thought Miss "C" their step-mother was nice. <hr></blockquote><p>also....a side note...children pick up things from their mothers...their primary caregivers...I grew up with a bitter and negative mother...everything that came out of my mother's mouth was nasty about my father when they divorced. I grew up with a slanted view due to my mother's negativity and it took years for me to change my behavior with counseling and God....My H's parents are always late...never punctual for anything...he learned being late and procrastination as a way of life....<p>my next point?<p>What OW says and do about this situation will teach the child far more louder than anyones involvement in their lives.<p>As I didn't make a BIG DEAL out of my ex forgetting the kid's birthdays or holidays my kids never noticed. I celebrated their days without saying a word...it's kinda like me being deaf...<p>I have people come up to me saying, "I feel so sorry for you that you are deaf and can't hear this or that...."<p>I look at them and say, "how can you miss something you never had? and I appreciate all the more what I can hear and have."<p>I will sign off now...Mothers...(OW,SINGLE MARRIED WHATEVER) be careful how you speak around your children. Give careful thought of what you want to project on your child. You can be mad, sad, glad at your ex, MM or whatever...but a child is a child once...don't taint their view because of your hangups. I learned that from watching my mother and her negativity and it did tarnish my relationship with my father which we are just now recovering....but that's a whole nother thread...<p>I'm signing off for real now....LOL<p>Twiisty