Ending contact with a lover after an affair is absolutely essential to recovery. Recovery will not take place until that happens.

The reason I am starting this thread is that we seem to have many people here who think it is ok to go along with foolishness like "professional" contact or other somesuch nonsense. It is NOT. Calling an affair some new cute name does not change its nature. If I call a baloney sandwich a dog, it is not going to magically become a DOG. I PROMISE YOU IT WILL ALWAYS BE A BALONEY SANDWICH.

If you don't believe that ending all contact is absolutely essential, I would invite you read some of the threads on this forum of on-again, off-again affairs because the BS did not heed this warning. And it usually due to a desire to take the easier, softer way.

As patriot once said, "conflict avoidance always causes MORE conflict." That is the truth in this matter.

One cannot FORCE a WS to quit a job, but one CAN enforce his own boundaries and insist that no contact take place. Without it, recovery is impossible anyway.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material...

p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Ditto.

I am quoting starfish from another post. She hit the nail on the head with :

It really does take a while for a FWS to actually get how important NC really is!

Thanks Mel for posting this.

bumping because we have several new people here who don't GET how essential NC is to recovery. If a WS will not end contact, even if it means leaving his job, then Plan B is warranted. Dr. Harley recommends that Plan A last 3-4 WEEKS for women, up to 6 months for MEN.

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

Why does Dr. Harley make this distinction?

Amen!

My FWH dumped OW pronto but there were a few times after D-day and the promise of NC that OW would call him freaking out to find out what I had told her H. My H answered the call knowing it was her and I would have to 2x4 him all over again. Geez you promise and swear never to speak to her again and two days later you're worried about HER more than ME!! :twobyfour: :twobyfour:
DH got the message loud and clear after that.

I agree, agree, agree!!!.

My FWH was totally unable to maintain NC until he left his job and we moved to a different state. At the beginning, "it was well, we just have to talk at work. Talking to her is the same as talking to anyone else." Then in a NY minute, they were out chatting during smoke breaks, still saying "I still love you, but I can't be with you because I want to be with my family, blah, blah, blah; what is your wife telling my husband and vice versa". Where's the vomit icon when you need it?

Three months plus between D Day and when H kicking and screaming wrote his NC letter. Even his last day of work, OW came to him and asked to talk and he said OK. For weeks afterward, he was still so foggy and full of gaslighting. It almost ended it for me. Now, I finally feel as though we are starting to recover.

I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. I think the exposure to everyone who can help and NC are absolute keys to recovering a marriage.

AM

Thank you for posting this ML. I certainly agree that NC means NC and any contact is very harmful. I just want to clarify something with plan A.


And I'm glad you supporting it with this.


The important points here are that Dr. Harley starts at 3-4 weeks and 6 months and if they are doing well he suggests that they continue.

He does say that it is "inexact". And that a good support system is can "often keep a person in plan A much longer"

I would assume the reverse is true too. If the person is being told to kick the WS to the curb it will hinder their plan and end it prematurely and make recovery less likely.

Unfortunately, some people tell newbies to kick their WS to the curb, telling the newbie that they are in denial or without even considering the emotional strength or the perseverance of the BS.

So it sounds like helping the BS stay in plan A as long as they are able and strong enough is what Dr. Harley suggests.

Just wanted to make sure that was clarified for the new posters.

Blessings.

S&C

Fear I suppose...fear of the financial impact or the anger/resentment of their spouse or both. There's no way I could have tolerated my H still being in contact with OW in any way shape or form. Not enforcing NC while trying to recover a M is the kiss of death.

SC, I think it is important to point out that we, as internet posters, ARE NOT QUALIFIED to judge the emotional strength or perseverance level of anyone. [and the poster is usually LESS objective than we are] You are not qualified and neither am I. That is why I stick to what Dr Harley says, ie: 3-4 weeks for women and 6 months for men.

Even Dr Harley points out that if he doesn't know the person he is inclined to stick to those parameters. "If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men."<-----that is what I tell people since I am not qualified to discern anyone's emotional strength.

If Dr. Harley "tends to stick to the safe side" by recommending 3-4 weeks for women and 6 months for men, I am inclined to do the SAME. He is a psychologist after all.

It's easy to understand. The early days of a newly betrayed BS are a dimension of h*** that cannot be described unless you've been there. You can't decide if you need to go to the kitchen or the bathroom, let alone make life changing decisions. Some of the most effective MB tools are somewhat counter-intuitive, like exposure. Plus, you've got a fog-babbling WS telling you things and you WANT to believe them. It's hard to take the word of strangers on a forum over your beloved spouse, wavering though (s)he might be. If (s)he says there's NC, you want to believe it. If (s)he says he can end the A and still work with the OP, you WANT to believe it. And you are trying to act with a mind and heart that is critically damaged from the A in the first place.

So, yes, I understand completely.

It is because some are not capable of putting their emotions aside and following a strategic plan. Dr Harley mentioned this aspect a few times on his radio show, and said something to the effect that if a person was not able to follow a PLAN and put aside emotions, they probably would have a very rough road.

And that is what I see here. Those who tend to be ruled by emotions don't usually fare well because they cannot follow a plan of action. I will add that almost everyone is very emotional when they come here. Some can operate in spite of them, others cannot. The ones who cannot are severely handicapped, IMO.

p.s. and the leading emotion, IMO, is usually FEAR. When fear rules, the person is paralyzed and all hope goes out the window.

I'm glad to read this. It explains ALOT.

MBers HELPED me to PUT MY EMOTIONS ASIDE.

I think that's a HUGE PART of the HEALING PROCESS for the BETRAYED SPOUSE...was for me...

I remember that you were able to put your emotions aside and stick to a PLAN very well. Having a PLAN seemed to even CALM you down. You were a MASTER of taking the PLAN and adding to it when you saw opportunities.

Another way of looking at this is that you CANNOT do what comes NATURALLY...cry, scream, beg, holler..all of that STUFF..makes it ALL WORST...

Exactly my point Mel. There are a few posters on MB that make that judgment right after the first post and the new poster doesn't even know what plan A is yet.

They have no clue as to the new poster's resolve. But the fact that they are here at least tells everyone on the forum that they are interested in saving their M (with a few exceptions).

The new posters are told that if they don't kick WS to the curb, they have no back bone, if it's a man their manhood is challenged.

But if they were allowed to post and learn about all the tools that MB has to offer without criticism and taught to learn the tools, then the posters here who know how to use Dr. H's tools would be able to provide a good support system.

Dr. H evidently thinks that this forum has the ability to figure out whether or not someone is able to go longer, otherwise he wouldn't have written this to you.


So, it seems that the key is to help the poster stay on MB, learn about all the tools, and then support them in the proper use of those tools. Sorta sounds like he wants the forum to encourage people in plan A, not move them to plan B prematurely.

Mel, I beg to differ with you in one area; you may not be qualified to discern a poster's emotional strength on the first few posts, but isn't it possible for you to get to know them better so that you can be a better judge of their strength? ...And then help them develop a plan to restore their M?

A good plan can't be developed unless those developing the plan know the person the plan is being developed for. I mean that's what MB teaches right? ...Make a plan so when the emotions start raging, you have something solid to hang onto. If we are not helping the posters develop a plan, then everyone's advice here should simply be to make an appointment with the Harley's.

Blessings.

S&C

I've counseled with both Jenn and Steve. In one of my sessions with Jenn, she told me the majority of females can Plan A for 3/4 weeks. After that the emotional strain becomes too much for them.

To further that and to paraphrase her, she said when in Plan A a person is putting aside some of their natural boundaries where they wouldn't normally tolerate such poor moral behavior from their spouse (WS), hence the great emotional strain.

Jo

I would rather focus on what Dr Harley says rather than what some arbitrary poster said that bothered you. I am not sure what this has to do with anything except that other posters really seem to annoy you alot. Maybe you should take that up with him?


That is not what he said at all. He said that if HE doesn't know them well, not US. He is a psychologist, we are not. He and Steve send ppl to the forum for support, but these are people who they are counseling. They discern themselves if the person has the energy to extend Plan A.

Remember, even Dr Harley said that "I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men."


I would never presume to have the ability to adjudge someones emotional stability over the internet and think it would be grossly irresponsible to try and do so. We need to consider the ramifications of such a guessing game, SC; women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from being in Plan A too long.

I really question the judgement of anyone who believes they are qualified to judge the emotional strength of someone over the internet, especially when one has absolutely no training and no experience. I know I do not.

The stakes are too high, IMO, to play internet shrink. So, for me, I will stick with what the good doctor says and that is:



Here is another of his quotes that should be taken into consideration when we feel compelled to play such games:

But MELODY....I HAVE to email/call/walk by OP. It would just be too MEAN to cut off all contact. After all I don't want to hurt their feelings because they love me SO MUCH! And besides, what harm would TALKING do anyway? It's just at work!

:RollieEyes:

That seems to fall in line with what Dr. H says; that plan A is "inexact" and that this isn't a hard and fast rule that happens with everyone.

And that given "good" support, they could be "kept" in plan A longer at times when emotions what to rule the choices. Having a good plan seems to be a key in helping someone be where they should. Whether it is a little longer in plan A or moving to plan B.

Sounds like Jennifer feels that without giving the WS time to get out of the fog is not always the best

And putting aside someone's boundaries temporarily, i.e. not kicking the WS to the curb immediately, maybe a good course of action and doesn't always make someone a wus, less of a man or a doormat.

Good point Jo.

S&C

This seems out of context for this thread. What does this have to do with this discussion on this thread?

Jo said;


Just giving what Jo said some perspective.

S&C

ok, but who has said anything about "kicking the WS to the curb" or he is a "wus?" I am not understanding what this has to do with the discussion? Your comments seem out of context and are distracting from the subject.

Hi ML,


So now you're able to discern stuff? Just kidding. You are right, it does annoy me when people feel like they know a new poster right after the first post and proceed to tell them what they need to do without either having them talk to the Harleys or getting to know the situation better. You discerned my feelings well.


So if He and Steve send them here for support, and people on the forum tell them to dump the WS, how is the forum supporting them? Seem like the forum, at times, is working against the good Dr.


You're so right, may I keep this and quote you when it happens on the forum?


So then, rather than have people on the forum telling someone they need to go to Plan B or kick the WS to the curb, we should wait and see what Dr. Harley would say. Because we are not qualified to say one way or the other.

Knowing we are not qualified to recommend whether or not a person is ready to stay in plan A or move to plan B, how does this forum best support people without telling them what they "need" to do?


This continues to support what I said. 15% do come back! How can anyone on this forum know which 15% it is. We certainly can't! So how should this forum respond? Innocent until proven the WS refuses to return or 100% guilty that none will return?

I want you to know Mel, that I agree with what you are saying. It just doesn't seem to happen on these forums. Too much pain and suffering that hasn't been healed for all the new posters to get what they really need to help their M.

Thanks for taking time to discuss this with me Mel.

Blessings.

S&C

Thanks for the feedback, SC. But I do think think there is perhaps a difference between discerning someone's obvious annoyance and the emotional stability of a poster. Nor is there as much at stake.

Since you have so many annoyances with other posters, and you do seem annoyed quite often, why not discuss it with them directly, rather than on a thread they might not ever see where it is just a distraction? It just seems out of context and distracting here, like you are having a one sided debate with someone who is not here.

I couldn't agree more that NC is essential. Take it from someone who "thought" everything stayed on a professional level and continued to work with my FOM for 2 years after I ended the A. All I did was prolong my withdrawal and put my DH through utter torture.

It wasn't until my FOM finally left our employer that I could get my head on straight and do what really needed to be done to rebuild my marriage the right way.

I wasted 2 years trying to figure out why I couldn't get over the A. It was pretty hard to get over something that was in my face.

Sort of wish either my DH or FOM's W would have run across MB back in the day, it could have saved all of us a lot of grief had we known what really needed to be done.

LC

ML,


You and mimi started talking about plan A and plan B.

And I talked about some important points about them with regards to what Dr. said; based on your quote regarding plan A and plan B. And that these tools are not always implemented and used properly on these forums.

They are in context with the direction the thread turned.

The thing is, I asked a number of questions about Dr. Harley's entire quote and the use of these tools on this forum and not all of them got answered. I was hoping that they would be; rather than comments about a joke about discerning.

BTW, if I am annoyed a lot, then this kind of thing must be happening more than it should. And I do take it up with those posters. I just I just don't have the time to get to all of them. Today just happens to be a good day and the right opportunity to get the point across.

S&C

S&C, hopefully, we can focus on what DOES work, according to Dr Harley, rather than your past grievances with other posters and sundry complaints about the forum. The goal is to discuss what DOES WORK, and I would like to keep it productive. Thanks..

lifechoice, your words on this subject have helped so very many people and I hope you don't mind that I use your post sometimes. It has been a real eye opener to others.

S&C - in most cases I have seen, if a poster says they are counselling with Steve of Jen, forum members defer to them.

We give our best, non-professional advice. We advise them to counsel with the Harleys.

Surely you aren't saying that a new poster counselling with the Harleys is so dumb that they will take the advice of anonymous internet posters over the advice of the Harleys?

Completely 100% agree. Thank you so much, Lifeschoice!

Jo

I agree! If Dr. Harley doesn't do it; neither should anyone on this forum. And if he does, it should be done here.

Blessings.

S&C

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, perhaps you would like to expound?

S&C, better yet, since you seem to have an agenda of your own, why not start a new thread for that purpose? My purpose on this thread was NO CONTACT, and your agenda revolves around your grievances towards other posters and the forum.

I would appreciate it if you didn't disrupt my thread anymore with your agenda.

Thanks..

Unfortunately this has been me for the past 2 years.

Rock,

This is the part that was so different for me. I suspected an A for three days. On the 4th day, I had proof. Within three hours, I had confronted H, called his mother and 2 of his brothers, called the OWH twice, and threatened to call WH's boss.

I almost bought into WH's "I can't avoid her at work. We have to have professional contact, etc.". I was uncomfortable about his desire for C, but could not articulate why and certainly did not understand the "fix" aspect and affairs as an addiction. That is where MB forum, the books, the articles really helped. It still took 3 months for NC. During that time, WH was still deployed, working in the same building as OW and it was difficult for us to get together for much time at all, which made a Plan A nearly impossible to implement. And there was no way any kind of recovery could start with the continued contact.

But to me, inaction was never one of the options. Maybe I was not afraid because I have lived through so many military deployments that being alone does not scare me. Instead, I choose my bone-headed FWH and my marriage.

AM

Mel,



Thank you and I do not mind at all if you use my posts.

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK. :RollieEyes:

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

LC

LC, thanks so much for this powerful, articulate message. This describes perfectly what I have said about an alcoholic sitting in the bar every day staring at his drink of choice. The inevitable weak moment eventually collides with opportunity and he is soon back drinking. How hard it must have been for both of you to be triggered like that every time you went to work. thanks again.

Thank you LC,

I'm filing this right next to Trueheart's and Joseph's letters.

S&C

My goodness,

Isn't it refreshing when Radical Honesty, finally collides with a contrite heart and soul????????

{{{{{{{{{lifeschoice}}}}}}}}}}}

All Blessings,
Jerry

ML,

I learned a new word today, “ad hominem argument”. I’ve been thinking. Why are you so annoyed at what I posted? And why is it that you ignore the questions I asked?

You appear to be in disagreement with something I am saying but you don’t specifically say what you are in disagreement with.

You seem to dismiss what I say by implicating that I have a problem of some kind or saying that my posts are out of context of the thread. Yet it became part of the part of the thread topic when you mentioned plan A and mimi asked about the duration of it. I joined in after that talking about the duration and use of plan A.

You also say that you would rather focus on what works and not what doesn’t. I think that is equal to not dealing with “Love Busters”. Love Busters are damaging in marriages, and can be equally damaging when trying to help people that are trying to restore their M.

So Mel? What is it that you are in disagreement with?

S&C

Sorry for the confusion, SC, hopefully I can clear it up for you. It appears that you have an agenda that focuses on your resentments against other posters, which I find very distracting and out of context on a thread that I began in order to discuss no contact.

Here are some examples from this thread:

"Unfortunately, some people tell newbies to kick their WS to the curb, telling the newbie that they are in denial or without even considering the emotional strength or the perseverance of the BS."

"The new posters are told that if they don't kick WS to the curb, they have no back bone, if it's a man their manhood is challenged."

"And putting aside someone's boundaries temporarily, i.e. not kicking the WS to the curb immediately, maybe a good course of action and doesn't always make someone a wus, less of a man or a doormat."

Now, none of your grievances have been said on this thread, yet you persist with this agenda even though it is not relevant to this thread. It is like watching a one sided argument. Perhaps you just aren't aware of how very negative and distracting your resentments are, but I would appreciate it if you would start your own thread instead of doing it here.

Thanks for your cooperation.

p.s. S&C, you are certainly entitled to your resentments, I am not saying you aren't! I am only asking respectfully that you start your own thread for your agenda instead of doing it on mine.

Very well.

I thought since you brought up plan A, someone else asked about the use and duration of plan A and you answered them, that it was open for discussion. Sometimes threads do deviate a bit from their topic. I will consider starting a new thread.

Because you are one of the most prolific posters and someone that many people look up to here on MB I would appreciate your thoughts on the use of Plan A and Plan B when I do start it.

I apologize if this thread took a negative turn. Sometimes when I want to understand something and I'm looking for answers and I feel like I am being ignored, I tend to push a bit. I didn't understand why it would have been an issue for you to respond. I can see that it is important and appropriate for people to stick with the issue and the reason the original poster started the thread and not distract from the purpose of the thread.

Please accept my apologies and I look forward to hearing your opinions on my thread when it gets started.

Blessings.

S&C

Good luck on your thread!

Melody, you are so right on and so very articulate at it!
Every couple affected by infidelity needs to read and fully understand this! Thanks for your great insight.
Sky

Very true and many times I didn't even recognize the weak moments.

As for the triggering, sure it was hard and came to the point it was almost like a form self-inflicted torture. At the time this was going on I did not have to work, I worked because I really enjoyed my job. As my emotional and mental health became affected due to the constant reminders it then became about not wanting to feel I was shoved out the door by my FOM. That would have been when my unhealthy level of anger hit and lasted way longer than I care to admit. I'm sure he was hoping I would get sick of all of it and quit, but I was way too stubborn to do that.

Hindsight, the second I ended the A I should have quit playing games and quit my job. I certainly would have saved myself a lot of unnecessary internal conflict.

LC

Thanks Jerry,

I have to give credit where it is due. I did not do this alone. Right after I ended the A I stumbled across a debate forum about infidelity. It was comprised mostly of woman. They witnessed me hit rock bottom and fall head first over the deep end over the events of the A. They supported me, guided me and kicked my butt often, but most importantly they helped me save my sanity. They did all of this for me and most of them were BS's not all that far out from D-day.

They were willing to help because I was willing to (eventually) listen. I didn't like what they had to say and they sometimes had to tell me the same things over and over before I "got it". I also learned that I had to read what they said several times before it made sense. It was a very icky feeling to be out of control, know it, but not have the ability to get myself under control.

I am so thankful they had the patience to deal with me when I was so fogged out and losing my mind. Without them I'm not sure I would have ever recovered my sanity and without that there is no way my DH and I would have been able to recover our marriage.

LC

Bumping up....there still seems to be a couple people confused about this issue.

bump

Ditto - what she said.

You mean the word no is solid? Can't even have a PEEP of contact?

Just kidding. I don't get how people don't get it either,

I didn't have time to read all the responses to this but, I did read the initial post by ML.

I would have to say that one of my biggest mistakes the last time I found out about WH and OW (aside from not finding MB) is that once WH agreed to NC I didn't rock the boat on leaving the church or even WH leaving the ministry they were working in. WH said that he only stuck to his commite of NC for 2 weeks before he contacted her again.

I really wish I had known about MB 2 years ago, when WH was only a few months into his EA.

Just wanted to say that by the time i found MB, OW had been fired and was no longer physically at the workplace and they still stayed in contact thru e-mails, phone. that was hard enough to get over when he finally agreed on NC. he felt it was unnecessary because she was gone and contact seemed to die down. he was in the "just friends" fog, hell he even made plans with her husband to fix the brakes on her car. when i found that out, i hit the roof and went hysterical on him.

NC was written shortly after that. i can not even imagine what would have happend, how bad the depression, withdrawel would have been if any at all, had they still worked together. i am sure i would be on a divorse forum somewhere because he was absolutely incapable of beign rid of her on his own.

how much proof needs to prevail before NC is given the merit it needs to have. and by the way, NC means me too. many posters have chastized me for continued "snooping" on her web sites. which keeps her current on my mind, and triggers me! so how much more would the site of her trigger him? i have nothing but hate and anger for her, which gets fed everytme i see her, even in pictures. the simple and horrible truth is WH had love and desire for her, so wouldn't it make since that that is what he would feel, that is what would be triggered everytime he saw her?

our recovery would have been non-existent i am positive. the pain it would have caused me, the trust issues alone would have been insurmountable.

this truly is a no-brainer as far as i can see.

I'm new here and this thread was recommended to me. Certainly was worth reading.

I am only a month past D-Day and OM and I continue to work together. Obviously NC failed miserably. Lifechoice - I identified with every word you said!

Every time I'd hear his voice across the office or see his car I would feel both excited and sick. I just kept telling myself it was my price to pay for my mistake and I would have to be strong and deal with it.

Thing is - I am not strong and both BH and I are paying for my weakness. As terrifying as it is, I know I need to start NC and make it stick this time.

Thanks for posting this!

It seems to me that most people focus on the first reason Dr. Harley gives for NC (preventing a renewal of the affair) while overlooking or minimizing the very significant second reason.

NC is a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******.

This second reason is so significant that it could actually be a stand alone reason for NC.

I'd like to share a paraphrased transcript of what Dr. Harley said to me during one of his radio shows pertaining to this "crucial gesture of consideration" reason:


I added several parentheses and ellipses to that paraphrased transcript because Dr. Harley was addressing issues unique to my situation, but his wisdom and guidance are consistent despite the situation.

Yes, NC is important so the affair doesn't start up again. Yes, yes, yes.

However, my H's A started and ended 9 years ago. I learned about it only this year, yet I believe with everything in me that the A would not have started up again. It didn't start up again for 9 years, and there are many reasons why I firmly believe it just would not be rekindled. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

The point is this: it's enough of a reason, and even a better reason IMO, for a former wayward to put their beloved, betrayed spouse first and as a gesture of consideration, never under any circumstances have another interaction of any kind with OW/OM.

A truly repentant and contrite former wayward wouldn't want to put his/her loved one through another second of agony. A truly repentant and contrite former wayward wouldn't want the precious spouse to suffer more than he/she has already suffered.

Contact of any kind will cause suffering. It is a fact.

That's a very good point to emphasize Delta and I don't think it's this thread that I said it on but it's why "no contact" can't just be considered an "event"...instead it's a lifelong commitment that must also entail a PLAN to be effective in order to minimize...



For example...even though it's been 9 years and for all practical purposes you KNOW it's not going to rekindle...do you have a plan in place for the unlikely event that your husband runs into her at say, the grocery store or airport?

What's he supposed to do?

The ANSWER - DO NOT SPEAK TO HER. Literally get away from her proximity as fast as reasonably possible and call your BS immediately. Hiding the contact to protect your spouse would be a HUGE mistake....just call and share it and together we'll get through it. ****

You see ANY COMMUNICATION even just a polite "hello...how are you, good to see you, gotta run" carries with it a distrustful glow. The BS wasn't there. They will trigger and regress back to the DDAY and their imaginations will fill in the gaps. The will wonder things like:

1. Did (fww/fwh) say more and they aren't telling me?
2. Did they exchange business cards, emails or new telephone numbers?
3. Was the "contact" arranged?
4. Did they tell me EVERY SINGLE WORD exactly as spoken and in the order spoken (this alone is reason to run away without saying anything because rarely are conversations remembered PRECISELY and any change WILL be noticed by a NOW hyper-focused and aware former Betrayed Spouse)?
5. What non-verbal communication went on (what were they doing with their eyes, did she/her smile, wink or anything, did you check her out, what was she wearing, what were you wearing, did you touch her, did she touch you?

The speculation becomes endless and the "SUFFERING" will be evident.

MOST recovering couples aren't aware of this. Only being here on MB would really make any one aware that "no contact" really goes beyond just ending it and requires a plan. Without a "no contact plan" the tendency of most persons is to be polite. If they don't have a clue they are SUPPOSED to run away...they'll freeze while they consider what their options are and process WHAT TO DO.

If you have a plan in place...processing isn't an option.

RUN AWAY and DON'T SAY ANYTHING. Being rude to the OP is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR better than causing your spouse to suffer.

Mr. Wondering

***Any any Former Betrayed Spouse whose Former Wayward Spouse calls them immediately to report contact but that they responded according to the plan should be commended and NOT punished. This is practicing extra-ordinary precautions at it's utmost limit. How you respond to your FWS at this moment is CRITICAL to recovery. If the contact was truly accidental and such spouse responded according to your plan then you have absolutely nothing to be upset with him/her about. You MAY trigger a bit having the OP in your proximity and "suffer" a bit with flashbacks of dday but TRY not to take it out on your marital team member that stuck to your marriage's playbook. He/she is the good guy now.

Thanks for that, Mr. Wondering. Excellent points. And yes, my H does have a specific plan in place for both former OW and her husband, which he developed with guidance from Steve Harley.

Some others (in this case my family but in other cases might be coworkers or common friends) will likely not understand the "rudeness" and may think it's unnecessary, but that's only because they don't understand the triggers. They don't understand the suffering even an otherwise "innocent" exchange can cause.

Thanks for posting this, Delta! I agree with you that this reason for nc, the welfare of the BS, tends to be under-emphasized. Thanks for making that point so eloquently.

"However, my H's A started and ended 9 years ago. I learned about it only this year, yet I believe with everything in me that the A would not have started up again. It didn't start up again for 9 years, and there are many reasons why I firmly believe it just would not be rekindled. I could be wrong, but I don't think so."

No you are probably right. However your case is the exception not the rule. The odds are an affair will restart without NC.
Affairs have restarted affair seeing an old flame after 20 years of NC.

Even if one has a case where the affair will not restart with contact, why keep the OP around to rub in the BS's face?

Excellent point!!

Exactly the point that I was making ... and exactly Dr. Harley's #2 reason for NC.

Hello Delta,

As I am in the same situation with my relatives as you are I was wondering if you had any feedback from your relatives after your radio discussion with Dr.Harley?

If so, what he had recommended for those of us dealing with affairs in the family such as mine with my wife and my brother on how to make the family understand why there has to be no contact?

Did you have a chance to visit with your parents about the rapist analogy and what their response was?

I keep getting the "you need to just forgive him (they actually want reconciliation) and I have explained the difference and why can't you tolerate it just for one day of the event"...

I also am curious what he recommended for the one in a lifetime events such as weddings and funerals?

Mrs.Flint and I are doing absolutely great but my father and my brother's children just DO NOT understand WHY we can't all just kiss and makeup.

Thanks.

Jim

Jim, her radio segment is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm

Do a search for 10/11/2010 and hers is the first 2 segments

Thank you so much Melody!

Jim

The concept of NC for life with a former affair partner seems to be a universal recommendation made by all marriage counselors. In fact, I haven't found anything written by anyone who does not recommend NC for life.

So in addition to Dr. Harley's excellent advice posted on this thread, here's more insight on the reasons for NC:

*****edit******

Just bumping this thread to add that the above quote brings up a good point --
a promise to implement NC is not enough. EPs MUST be followed through on, i.e., changing the conditions which led to the affair AND eliminating temptation to resume the affair/contact wherever possible.

It also brings up the point that until the WS has come out of the fog (maybe even for a period of time after), very close monitoring is necessary until you have ensured that the affair is dead. The addictive nature of affairs is so powerful that a BS has to assume there will be a strong temptation on the part of the WS to resume contact for a period of time. (e.g., if it was an internet affair, key loggers must be installed on computers, etc). Better safe than sorry!

So often this step is skimmed over -- the BS desperately wants to believe the WS will keep their promise of NC -- but the rest of the program will not work if there is any further contact, even one sided contact (this includes looking at momentos from the affair, pictures, looking at the OP's FB page, etc), so it cannot be emphasized enough.

So the next step after reading this thread would be reading HPB's Extraordinary Precautions thread -- really these two go hand in hand, Step 1 of recovering from an affair.

Extraordinary Precautions