Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Mel,

Quote
lifechoice, your words on this subject have helped so very many people and I hope you don't mind that I use your post sometimes. It has been a real eye opener to others.


Thank you and I do not mind at all if you use my posts.

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK. :RollieEyes:

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

LC





Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
LC, thanks so much for this powerful, articulate message. This describes perfectly what I have said about an alcoholic sitting in the bar every day staring at his drink of choice. The inevitable weak moment eventually collides with opportunity and he is soon back drinking. How hard it must have been for both of you to be triggered like that every time you went to work. thanks again. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
Thank you LC,

I'm filing this right next to Trueheart's and Joseph's letters.

S&C


No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,632
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,632
My goodness,

Isn't it refreshing when Radical Honesty, finally collides with a contrite heart and soul????????

{{{{{{{{{lifeschoice}}}}}}}}}}}

All Blessings,
Jerry



Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
ML,

I learned a new word today, “ad hominem argument”. I’ve been thinking. Why are you so annoyed at what I posted? And why is it that you ignore the questions I asked?

You appear to be in disagreement with something I am saying but you don’t specifically say what you are in disagreement with.

You seem to dismiss what I say by implicating that I have a problem of some kind or saying that my posts are out of context of the thread. Yet it became part of the part of the thread topic when you mentioned plan A and mimi asked about the duration of it. I joined in after that talking about the duration and use of plan A.

You also say that you would rather focus on what works and not what doesn’t. I think that is equal to not dealing with “Love Busters”. Love Busters are damaging in marriages, and can be equally damaging when trying to help people that are trying to restore their M.

So Mel? What is it that you are in disagreement with?

S&C


No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
You appear to be in disagreement with something I am saying but you don’t specifically say what you are in disagreement with.
I learned a new word today, “ad hominem argument”. I’ve been thinking. Why are you so annoyed at what I posted? And why is it that you ignore the questions I asked?


Sorry for the confusion, SC, hopefully I can clear it up for you. It appears that you have an agenda that focuses on your resentments against other posters, which I find very distracting and out of context on a thread that I began in order to discuss no contact.

Here are some examples from this thread:

"Unfortunately, some people tell newbies to kick their WS to the curb, telling the newbie that they are in denial or without even considering the emotional strength or the perseverance of the BS."

"The new posters are told that if they don't kick WS to the curb, they have no back bone, if it's a man their manhood is challenged."

"And putting aside someone's boundaries temporarily, i.e. not kicking the WS to the curb immediately, maybe a good course of action and doesn't always make someone a wus, less of a man or a doormat."

Now, none of your grievances have been said on this thread, yet you persist with this agenda even though it is not relevant to this thread. It is like watching a one sided argument. Perhaps you just aren't aware of how very negative and distracting your resentments are, but I would appreciate it if you would start your own thread instead of doing it here.

Thanks for your cooperation. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
p.s. S&C, you are certainly entitled to your resentments, I am not saying you aren't! I am only asking respectfully that you start your own thread for your agenda instead of doing it on mine.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,361
Very well.

I thought since you brought up plan A, someone else asked about the use and duration of plan A and you answered them, that it was open for discussion. Sometimes threads do deviate a bit from their topic. I will consider starting a new thread.

Because you are one of the most prolific posters and someone that many people look up to here on MB I would appreciate your thoughts on the use of Plan A and Plan B when I do start it.

I apologize if this thread took a negative turn. Sometimes when I want to understand something and I'm looking for answers and I feel like I am being ignored, I tend to push a bit. I didn't understand why it would have been an issue for you to respond. I can see that it is important and appropriate for people to stick with the issue and the reason the original poster started the thread and not distract from the purpose of the thread.

Please accept my apologies and I look forward to hearing your opinions on my thread when it gets started.

Blessings.

S&C


No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Good luck on your thread!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
Melody, you are so right on and so very articulate at it!
Every couple affected by infidelity needs to read and fully understand this! Thanks for your great insight.
Sky

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
LC, thanks so much for this powerful, articulate message. This describes perfectly what I have said about an alcoholic sitting in the bar every day staring at his drink of choice.The inevitable weak moment eventually collides with opportunity and he is soon back drinking. How hard it must have been for both of you to be triggered like that every time you went to work. thanks again. smile

Very true and many times I didn't even recognize the weak moments.

As for the triggering, sure it was hard and came to the point it was almost like a form self-inflicted torture. At the time this was going on I did not have to work, I worked because I really enjoyed my job. As my emotional and mental health became affected due to the constant reminders it then became about not wanting to feel I was shoved out the door by my FOM. That would have been when my unhealthy level of anger hit and lasted way longer than I care to admit. I'm sure he was hoping I would get sick of all of it and quit, but I was way too stubborn to do that.

Hindsight, the second I ended the A I should have quit playing games and quit my job. I certainly would have saved myself a lot of unnecessary internal conflict.

LC





Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by shinethrough
My goodness,

Isn't it refreshing when Radical Honesty, finally collides with a contrite heart and soul????????

{{{{{{{{{lifeschoice}}}}}}}}}}}

All Blessings,
Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

I have to give credit where it is due. I did not do this alone. Right after I ended the A I stumbled across a debate forum about infidelity. It was comprised mostly of woman. They witnessed me hit rock bottom and fall head first over the deep end over the events of the A. They supported me, guided me and kicked my butt often, but most importantly they helped me save my sanity. They did all of this for me and most of them were BS's not all that far out from D-day.

They were willing to help because I was willing to (eventually) listen. I didn't like what they had to say and they sometimes had to tell me the same things over and over before I "got it". I also learned that I had to read what they said several times before it made sense. It was a very icky feeling to be out of control, know it, but not have the ability to get myself under control.

I am so thankful they had the patience to deal with me when I was so fogged out and losing my mind. Without them I'm not sure I would have ever recovered my sanity and without that there is no way my DH and I would have been able to recover our marriage.

LC





Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,639
Bumping up....there still seems to be a couple people confused about this issue.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
bump


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Ditto - what she said. grin


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
You mean the word no is solid? Can't even have a PEEP of contact?

Just kidding. I don't get how people don't get it either,


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 231
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 231
I didn't have time to read all the responses to this but, I did read the initial post by ML.

I would have to say that one of my biggest mistakes the last time I found out about WH and OW (aside from not finding MB) is that once WH agreed to NC I didn't rock the boat on leaving the church or even WH leaving the ministry they were working in. WH said that he only stuck to his commite of NC for 2 weeks before he contacted her again.

I really wish I had known about MB 2 years ago, when WH was only a few months into his EA.


Married 9 yrs.
DC 7 & 2
DH EA 4/08-01/10
Dday #1 05/08
False recovery b4 I knew about MB 07/08
Dday #2 01/10
NC 01/10

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 418
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 418
Just wanted to say that by the time i found MB, OW had been fired and was no longer physically at the workplace and they still stayed in contact thru e-mails, phone. that was hard enough to get over when he finally agreed on NC. he felt it was unnecessary because she was gone and contact seemed to die down. he was in the "just friends" fog, hell he even made plans with her husband to fix the brakes on her car. when i found that out, i hit the roof and went hysterical on him.

NC was written shortly after that. i can not even imagine what would have happend, how bad the depression, withdrawel would have been if any at all, had they still worked together. i am sure i would be on a divorse forum somewhere because he was absolutely incapable of beign rid of her on his own.

how much proof needs to prevail before NC is given the merit it needs to have. and by the way, NC means me too. many posters have chastized me for continued "snooping" on her web sites. which keeps her current on my mind, and triggers me! so how much more would the site of her trigger him? i have nothing but hate and anger for her, which gets fed everytme i see her, even in pictures. the simple and horrible truth is WH had love and desire for her, so wouldn't it make since that that is what he would feel, that is what would be triggered everytime he saw her?

our recovery would have been non-existent i am positive. the pain it would have caused me, the trust issues alone would have been insurmountable.

this truly is a no-brainer as far as i can see.


Me:BS-47
Him:WH-45
married 25 yrs
DD:22:married Dec 09
DS:20
DS:17
EA:Feb 09-May 09
Contact thru Sept.09
Nc in place Nov 09
trying to recover since then
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 160
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 160
I'm new here and this thread was recommended to me. Certainly was worth reading.

I am only a month past D-Day and OM and I continue to work together. Obviously NC failed miserably. Lifechoice - I identified with every word you said!

Every time I'd hear his voice across the office or see his car I would feel both excited and sick. I just kept telling myself it was my price to pay for my mistake and I would have to be strong and deal with it.

Thing is - I am not strong and both BH and I are paying for my weakness. As terrifying as it is, I know I need to start NC and make it stick this time.

Thanks for posting this!


WW (me) My Story
BH (Helo) His Story
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 656
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 656
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******.

It seems to me that most people focus on the first reason Dr. Harley gives for NC (preventing a renewal of the affair) while overlooking or minimizing the very significant second reason.

NC is a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******.

This second reason is so significant that it could actually be a stand alone reason for NC.

I'd like to share a paraphrased transcript of what Dr. Harley said to me during one of his radio shows pertaining to this "crucial gesture of consideration" reason:

Quote
Dr. Harley: "The main reason I have the no contact rule, no contact meaning that if the spouse has had an affair, he or she is to have no contact with the lover for the rest of his or her life, is for two reasons. One is for himself to make sure he doesn't rekindle the relationship and for there to be no opportunity for it to re-emerge. The other, of course, is for the sake of the betrayed spouse, that any contact made is a terrible offense to the betrayed spouse.

It's basically a two-barreled shotgun approach to things; there are two reasons for it, and each of the two reasons are sufficient to create the no contact rule. Together, there is no question this should be the way it is ...

Let's suppose someone were to rape you and it were to be a devastating experience, you would be held for three days, raped repeatedly ... yet you or your husband would have to be around (OW) on certain occasions. You can see how unreasonable that would be. Well, in this case, (OW) would affect you the way your rapist would affect you. (OW) literally affects you the way someone who had done the most disgraceful, despicable thing to you imaginable would affect you.

The pain and suffering you would experience being around (OW) or your husband being around (OW) for any event would so far outweigh (any benefit) that there's just no question that it is something nobody should want you to experience and you should not make yourself experience.

The way I would approach your situation is viewing this as if it were a rapist. That's a very good analogy. A lot of women have told me who have experienced rape and infidelity that the infidelity is worse, is harder for them."

I added several parentheses and ellipses to that paraphrased transcript because Dr. Harley was addressing issues unique to my situation, but his wisdom and guidance are consistent despite the situation.

Yes, NC is important so the affair doesn't start up again. Yes, yes, yes.

However, my H's A started and ended 9 years ago. I learned about it only this year, yet I believe with everything in me that the A would not have started up again. It didn't start up again for 9 years, and there are many reasons why I firmly believe it just would not be rekindled. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

The point is this: it's enough of a reason, and even a better reason IMO, for a former wayward to put their beloved, betrayed spouse first and as a gesture of consideration, never under any circumstances have another interaction of any kind with OW/OM.

A truly repentant and contrite former wayward wouldn't want to put his/her loved one through another second of agony. A truly repentant and contrite former wayward wouldn't want the precious spouse to suffer more than he/she has already suffered.

Contact of any kind will cause suffering. It is a fact.


FBW in recovery
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (NewEveryDay), 1,357 guests, and 77 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5