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Exactly my point Mel. There are a few posters on MB that make that judgment right after the first post and the new poster doesn't even know what plan A is yet.

They have no clue as to the new poster's resolve. But the fact that they are here at least tells everyone on the forum that they are interested in saving their M (with a few exceptions).

The new posters are told that if they don't kick WS to the curb, they have no back bone, if it's a man their manhood is challenged.

But if they were allowed to post and learn about all the tools that MB has to offer without criticism and taught to learn the tools, then the posters here who know how to use Dr. H's tools would be able to provide a good support system.

Dr. H evidently thinks that this forum has the ability to figure out whether or not someone is able to go longer, otherwise he wouldn't have written this to you.

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A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.

So, it seems that the key is to help the poster stay on MB, learn about all the tools, and then support them in the proper use of those tools. Sorta sounds like he wants the forum to encourage people in plan A, not move them to plan B prematurely.

Mel, I beg to differ with you in one area; you may not be qualified to discern a poster's emotional strength on the first few posts, but isn't it possible for you to get to know them better so that you can be a better judge of their strength? ...And then help them develop a plan to restore their M?

A good plan can't be developed unless those developing the plan know the person the plan is being developed for. I mean that's what MB teaches right? ...Make a plan so when the emotions start raging, you have something solid to hang onto. If we are not helping the posters develop a plan, then everyone's advice here should simply be to make an appointment with the Harley's.

Blessings.

S&C



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I've counseled with both Jenn and Steve. In one of my sessions with Jenn, she told me the majority of females can Plan A for 3/4 weeks. After that the emotional strain becomes too much for them.

To further that and to paraphrase her, she said when in Plan A a person is putting aside some of their natural boundaries where they wouldn't normally tolerate such poor moral behavior from their spouse (WS), hence the great emotional strain.

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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
Exactly my point Mel. There are a few posters on MB that make that judgment right after the first post and the new poster doesn't even know what plan A is yet. The new posters are told that if they don't kick WS to the curb, they have no back bone, if it's a man their manhood is challenged.

I would rather focus on what Dr Harley says rather than what some arbitrary poster said that bothered you. I am not sure what this has to do with anything except that other posters really seem to annoy you alot. Maybe you should take that up with him?

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Dr. H evidently thinks that this forum has the ability to figure out whether or not someone is able to go longer, otherwise he wouldn't have written this to you.

That is not what he said at all. He said that if HE doesn't know them well, not US. He is a psychologist, we are not. He and Steve send ppl to the forum for support, but these are people who they are counseling. They discern themselves if the person has the energy to extend Plan A.

Remember, even Dr Harley said that "I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men."

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Mel, I beg to differ with you in one area; you may not be qualified to discern a poster's emotional strength on the first few posts, but isn't it possible for you to get to know them better so that you can be a better judge of their strength? ...And then help them develop a plan to restore their M?

I would never presume to have the ability to adjudge someones emotional stability over the internet and think it would be grossly irresponsible to try and do so. We need to consider the ramifications of such a guessing game, SC; women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from being in Plan A too long.

I really question the judgement of anyone who believes they are qualified to judge the emotional strength of someone over the internet, especially when one has absolutely no training and no experience. I know I do not.

The stakes are too high, IMO, to play internet shrink. So, for me, I will stick with what the good doctor says and that is:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men.


Here is another of his quotes that should be taken into consideration when we feel compelled to play such games:


Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly. That leaves two other choices which are both bad.

The first is to continue plan A indefinitely, trying to encourage the WS to leave the lover, and the second is to initiate plan B, which is to completely separate from the WS.

The problem with a continuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them.

Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation. And 95% of all affairs eventually "die a natural death." If you do absolutely nothing, they usually end.

So I've recommended plan B rather early in the effort to separate the WS from his lover.
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But MELODY....I HAVE to email/call/walk by OP. It would just be too MEAN to cut off all contact. After all I don't want to hurt their feelings because they love me SO MUCH! And besides, what harm would TALKING do anyway? It's just at work!

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That seems to fall in line with what Dr. H says; that plan A is "inexact" and that this isn't a hard and fast rule that happens with everyone.

And that given "good" support, they could be "kept" in plan A longer at times when emotions what to rule the choices. Having a good plan seems to be a key in helping someone be where they should. Whether it is a little longer in plan A or moving to plan B.

Sounds like Jennifer feels that without giving the WS time to get out of the fog is not always the best

And putting aside someone's boundaries temporarily, i.e. not kicking the WS to the curb immediately, maybe a good course of action and doesn't always make someone a wus, less of a man or a doormat.

Good point Jo.

S&C


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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
And putting aside someone's boundaries temporarily, i.e. not kicking the WS to the curb immediately, maybe a good course of action and doesn't always make someone a wus, less of a man or a doormat.


S&C

This seems out of context for this thread. What does this have to do with this discussion on this thread?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Jo said;

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To further that and to paraphrase her, she said when in Plan A a person is putting aside some of their natural boundaries where they wouldn't normally tolerate such poor moral behavior from their spouse (WS), hence the great emotional strain.

Just giving what Jo said some perspective.

S&C

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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
Jo said;

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To further that and to paraphrase her, she said when in Plan A a person is putting aside some of their natural boundaries where they wouldn't normally tolerate such poor moral behavior from their spouse (WS), hence the great emotional strain.

Just giving what Jo said some perspective.

S&C

ok, but who has said anything about "kicking the WS to the curb" or he is a "wus?" I am not understanding what this has to do with the discussion? Your comments seem out of context and are distracting from the subject.

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Hi ML,

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Originally Posted By: steadfast and committed
Exactly my point Mel. There are a few posters on MB that make that judgment right after the first post and the new poster doesn't even know what plan A is yet.

I would rather focus on what Dr Harley says. I am not sure what this has to do with anything except that other posters really seem to annoy you alot. Maybe you should take that up with them?

So now you're able to discern stuff? Just kidding. You are right, it does annoy me when people feel like they know a new poster right after the first post and proceed to tell them what they need to do without either having them talk to the Harleys or getting to know the situation better. You discerned my feelings well.

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Dr. H evidently thinks that this forum has the ability to figure out whether or not someone is able to go longer, otherwise he wouldn't have written this to you.

That is not what he said at all. He said that if HE doesn't know them well, not US. He is a psychologist, we are not. He and Steve send ppl to the forum for support, but these are people who they are counseling. They discern themselves if the person has the energy to extend Plan A.

So if He and Steve send them here for support, and people on the forum tell them to dump the WS, how is the forum supporting them? Seem like the forum, at times, is working against the good Dr.

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Mel, I beg to differ with you in one area; you may not be qualified to discern a poster's emotional strength on the first few posts, but isn't it possible for you to get to know them better so that you can be a better judge of their strength? ...And then help them develop a plan to restore their M?

I would never presume to have the ability to adjudge someones emotional stability over the internet and think it would be grossly irresponsible to try and do so. We need to consider the ramifications of such a guessing game, SC; women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from being in Plan A too long.

I really question the judgement of anyone who believes they are qualified to judge the emotional strength of someone over the internet, especially when one has absolutely no training and no experience. I know I do not.

The stakes are too high, IMO, to play internet shrink.

You're so right, may I keep this and quote you when it happens on the forum?

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So, for me, I will stick with what the good doctor says and that is:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men.

So then, rather than have people on the forum telling someone they need to go to Plan B or kick the WS to the curb, we should wait and see what Dr. Harley would say. Because we are not qualified to say one way or the other.

Knowing we are not qualified to recommend whether or not a person is ready to stay in plan A or move to plan B, how does this forum best support people without telling them what they "need" to do?

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Here is another of his quotes that should be taken into consideration when we feel compelled to play such games:

Quote
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly. That leaves two other choices which are both bad.

The first is to continue plan A indefinitely, trying to encourage the WS to leave the lover, and the second is to initiate plan B, which is to completely separate from the WS.

The problem with a continuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them.

Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation. And 95% of all affairs eventually "die a natural death." If you do absolutely nothing, they usually end.

So I've recommended plan B rather early in the effort to separate the WS from his lover.

This continues to support what I said. 15% do come back! How can anyone on this forum know which 15% it is. We certainly can't! So how should this forum respond? Innocent until proven the WS refuses to return or 100% guilty that none will return?

I want you to know Mel, that I agree with what you are saying. It just doesn't seem to happen on these forums. Too much pain and suffering that hasn't been healed for all the new posters to get what they really need to help their M.

Thanks for taking time to discuss this with me Mel.

Blessings.

S&C


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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
So now you're able to discern stuff? Just kidding. You are right, it does annoy me when people feel like they know a new poster right after the first post and proceed to tell them what they need to do without either having them talk to the Harleys or getting to know the situation better. You discerned my feelings well.

Thanks for the feedback, SC. But I do think think there is perhaps a difference between discerning someone's obvious annoyance and the emotional stability of a poster. Nor is there as much at stake.

Since you have so many annoyances with other posters, and you do seem annoyed quite often, why not discuss it with them directly, rather than on a thread they might not ever see where it is just a distraction? It just seems out of context and distracting here, like you are having a one sided debate with someone who is not here.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
bumping because we have several new people here who don't GET how essential NC is to recovery. If a WS will not end contact, even if it means leaving his job, then Plan B is warranted. Dr. Harley recommends that Plan A last 3-4 WEEKS for women, up to 6 months for MEN.

I couldn't agree more that NC is essential. Take it from someone who "thought" everything stayed on a professional level and continued to work with my FOM for 2 years after I ended the A. All I did was prolong my withdrawal and put my DH through utter torture.

It wasn't until my FOM finally left our employer that I could get my head on straight and do what really needed to be done to rebuild my marriage the right way.

I wasted 2 years trying to figure out why I couldn't get over the A. It was pretty hard to get over something that was in my face.

Sort of wish either my DH or FOM's W would have run across MB back in the day, it could have saved all of us a lot of grief had we known what really needed to be done.

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ML,

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ok, but who has said anything about "kicking the WS to the curb" or he is a "wus?" I am not understanding what this has to do with the discussion? Your comments seem out of context.

You and mimi started talking about plan A and plan B.

And I talked about some important points about them with regards to what Dr. said; based on your quote regarding plan A and plan B. And that these tools are not always implemented and used properly on these forums.

They are in context with the direction the thread turned.

The thing is, I asked a number of questions about Dr. Harley's entire quote and the use of these tools on this forum and not all of them got answered. I was hoping that they would be; rather than comments about a joke about discerning.

BTW, if I am annoyed a lot, then this kind of thing must be happening more than it should. And I do take it up with those posters. I just I just don't have the time to get to all of them. Today just happens to be a good day and the right opportunity to get the point across.

S&C



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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
And I talked about some important points about them with regards to what Dr. said; based on your quote regarding plan A and plan B. And that these tools are not always implemented and used properly on these forums.

They are in context with the direction the thread turned.

S&C, hopefully, we can focus on what DOES work, according to Dr Harley, rather than your past grievances with other posters and sundry complaints about the forum. The goal is to discuss what DOES WORK, and I would like to keep it productive. Thanks.. smile

lifechoice, your words on this subject have helped so very many people and I hope you don't mind that I use your post sometimes. It has been a real eye opener to others.


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S&C - in most cases I have seen, if a poster says they are counselling with Steve of Jen, forum members defer to them.

We give our best, non-professional advice. We advise them to counsel with the Harleys.

Surely you aren't saying that a new poster counselling with the Harleys is so dumb that they will take the advice of anonymous internet posters over the advice of the Harleys?

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
lifechoice, your words on this subject have helped so very many people and I hope you don't mind that I use your post sometimes. It has been a real eye opener to others.

Completely 100% agree. Thank you so much, Lifeschoice!

Jo

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I agree! If Dr. Harley doesn't do it; neither should anyone on this forum. And if he does, it should be done here.

Blessings.

S&C


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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
I agree! If Dr. Harley doesn't do it; neither should anyone on this forum. And if he does, it should be done here.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, perhaps you would like to expound?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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S&C, better yet, since you seem to have an agenda of your own, why not start a new thread for that purpose? My purpose on this thread was NO CONTACT, and your agenda revolves around your grievances towards other posters and the forum.

I would appreciate it if you didn't disrupt my thread anymore with your agenda.

Thanks..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
Originally Posted by armymama
I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. I think the exposure to everyone who can help and NC are absolute keys to recovering a marriage.

It's easy to understand. The early days of a newly betrayed BS are a dimension of h*** that cannot be described unless you've been there. You can't decide if you need to go to the kitchen or the bathroom, let alone make life changing decisions. Some of the most effective MB tools are somewhat counter-intuitive, like exposure. Plus, you've got a fog-babbling WS telling you things and you WANT to believe them. It's hard to take the word of strangers on a forum over your beloved spouse, wavering though (s)he might be. If (s)he says there's NC, you want to believe it. If (s)he says he can end the A and still work with the OP, you WANT to believe it. And you are trying to act with a mind and heart that is critically damaged from the A in the first place.

So, yes, I understand completely.

Unfortunately this has been me for the past 2 years.


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Rock,

This is the part that was so different for me. I suspected an A for three days. On the 4th day, I had proof. Within three hours, I had confronted H, called his mother and 2 of his brothers, called the OWH twice, and threatened to call WH's boss.

I almost bought into WH's "I can't avoid her at work. We have to have professional contact, etc.". I was uncomfortable about his desire for C, but could not articulate why and certainly did not understand the "fix" aspect and affairs as an addiction. That is where MB forum, the books, the articles really helped. It still took 3 months for NC. During that time, WH was still deployed, working in the same building as OW and it was difficult for us to get together for much time at all, which made a Plan A nearly impossible to implement. And there was no way any kind of recovery could start with the continued contact.

But to me, inaction was never one of the options. Maybe I was not afraid because I have lived through so many military deployments that being alone does not scare me. Instead, I choose my bone-headed FWH and my marriage.

AM


BW - 70
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H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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