The story:
New here. WH had 5 month affair with 23 y/o co-worker. They will no longer work together. WH left that job upon last false recovery. WH is 36 and I'm 35. Had 4 false recoveries. On last attempt he did NC letter and counseling with Harley's. Lasted one week. Then he contacted her again by phone, got weird with me over a few days. Then a few nights ago said he was thinking about getting an apartment, he never loved me in 17 years of marriage. He said I think I love her and have to give it a chance or will always wonder. He left, slept with her, then came banging on the door at 3am saying, "Now I broke it off with her for good this time. This time I meant it." Says he didn't mean those things. He knows he loves me not her. Says he now sees the A for what it was and doesn't want her. Last three days begging for one more chance. Tons of texts, emails, phone calls wanting me to now trust him. Says he always agreed to break off with OW in past out of fear of losing me but this time, he did it because he wanted to and wants nothing more than our marriage.

We do have a good marriage other than this. I want to survive this. I want to believe he is done but after 5 false recoveries I'm left lost. I don't even know what I need to see/hear from him at this point. He's asking, "what can I do to prove it?" Frankly, I'm not sure what that answer is besides the test of time. We are living apart last few days since this happened. What should I be looking for from him? MB counseling with Steve. He says I have to see something different than he offered before, but I still don't know what that looks like. WH wants to be together more. I think he understands I can't live with him now, although he would like to come home. He is asking me for dates, time together. I agreed to meet him tomorrow night, but asked for a "plan." I'm not ready for rebuilding romantic date nights just yet. I'm so afraid he'll want her back again when the shock of losing me wears off. Now living apart, he has more freedom to see her if he wants. I don't think he is, but it's only been three days. What do I do? How do I know if this is over with the OW or not?

Simply?

Plan B.

Or A real PLan A.

You got some good info on your original thread.

It is not unusual for the wayward one to continue contact after dday. His contacts keep escalating however.

And he feels no repercussions to this contact. And he is great when he is with you, becasue then he gets to cake eat. Getting the "family" life from you and "monkey sex" from the OW. So why give that up?

Sorry to be harsh, and sorry that you have to be here. But there is a plan for you to follow here, that just might save your M.

LG

Hopefully you say this with tongue in cheek.

Have you read the articles in the yellow column on the right? Specifically, the "Coping with Infidelity" section. There are some very specific steps that need to be taken to end an affair and to move on to recovery.

Please take a few minutes to read those and then come back with your questions.

Why Plan B when he's ended it and not seeing her. I thought plan B was for when A continued. Sure it's only been 3 days, but I have a WH wanting back here who says it's over. We are in MC with Steve Harley. He's not telling me plan B. I'm wondering how do I know this time is different? WH keeps asking me how he can prove that to me. After all the false recoveries we both feel a little lost and not knowing how to move forward. I'm scared and he's feeling frustrated b/c I can't just believe him. Do I just wait this out and see if his cravings for OW return and if he resists them?

princess-

I've read all articles, columns on MB. Both WH and I have read SAA. I have exposed the A. He did NC letter, then contacted, then ended again. No not ideal but this is what I'm dealing with.

Then I guess I don't understand what you're asking.

There are specific steps to take outlined in SAA AND in the articles. Also, if you're counseling with SH, I'm surprised he hasn't helped you with this.

I would make it a condition that you need to move out of the area...far, far, FAR away from the OW.

See what his willingness to do this is, that will tell you alot.

This is what you think:


And what you thought the first 4 times.

Please do not accept that he isn't in contact till that has been proved for at least 60 days.

Transparent behavior.
No "nights Out"
No "I couldn't help it, so I called her" events


Then you have something to work with.

LG

Steve says I have to see WH offer something different to prove it's over with OW. Last false recovery he changed job, began MC- but he failed again and broke NC-had sex. Now I'm getting the begging, pleading to give him one more chance. He has convinced himself it is really over in a way I haven't seen before. But Steve says I need to see him "present a plan." I would be lost if I were my WH too. He's done the big things to show change, but he failed, so I don't know what evidence there is left for him to present me. Steve suggested and accountability partner to him. Someone other than me. I'm really now sure though how that helps me trust him though.

What should I be seeing from him at this point in order to try and give him another chance?

We had talked about a move in the past and he asked me about that again yesterday. I think he is willing, but thinks and says if I let him prove it to me, by being with me and trying it again, I will feel different and won't "need" to move. I would be willing to move to save my marriage.

OK so we know you have had 5FR, so there for you do not trust your husband I wouldn't blame you, I wouldn't either. If I was in your position I would do this.

Tell him my conditions.
1. I would have access to all emails, phone bills, text messages, FB, etc
2. MC with SH
3. NC with OW even if its just to say "hey, just wanted to say hi."

These are the things you should be looking for if he is really wanting to recover.

1. Change in behavior
2. how he wants to spend more time with you
3. How he acts, does he seem board?
4. Action speaks louder than words.

He can not argue, you have the strings here not him. Also I would tell him that you not ready for him to come back home to live with you, these were his choices, and you are afraid that he will hurt you again. Tell him "I love you and always will but you have to be sincere on the decision and I would have to believe it." Let him know and understand why you don't trust him, I mean come on 5 times he has done this to you? Ya RIGHT! He does not have any say on what the outcome will be.

Bruised,

I went through 4 YEARS of false recoveries just like yours. H remorseful. Breaks it off, or appears to. Counsels with SH.

It didn't change until H was ready to do some searing examination of his own selfishness. Your "proof" is a change of heart, really, truly.

Did you tell Steve about the latest relapse? Becuase I very much think Plan B is warranted and should have been done a long time ago.

Did you expose this affair to everyone?

And no, he hasn't "ended it." He just got a fix to last him a couple more months.

Of course I told Steve about lastest relapse. He has not said plan B at all.

WH did counseling with me on Friday. Still very remorseful, sorry, begging for one more chance. Says how this time it's his choice to be done and he sees OW in disgusting way he never did before. He said, " I see the lie, and falseness of this and there is NO way I'm throwing away my marriage and family for a lie." He did take Steve's suggestion and ask a good friend of ours to be his accountability partner. I think that is supposed to help me feel safe.

So we talk on the phone, he's still living at his parents. We met and talked last night. He says he's doing EP, NC, now the accountability partner. Here's my new situation....We are supposed to leave on a trip with a group of friends to St. Martin on this Friday. WH is begging me to go so we can begin recovery away from all this and so that he can be with me to show me and prove to me that all he wants is us. Is this a good or bad idea to go? I'm completely lost on this. I see good and bad points to it. The good: gets WH away from OW for sure and by time we get back will be through initial withdrawal period of three weeks; I could see if he's changed by being with him; we could have a renewed start in a way there. We are currently talking daily, seeing him a time or two, is this idea just weird. If I'm going on a trip with him why are we living apart (WH does want to come home.) I need help!

Personally, I would follow the Harley's advice.

Ask hubby to write out a plan on how he will take extraordinary precautions to eliminate the OW. An accountability partner is good, but he needs a more detailed plan.

Then I think I would go on vacation and try to start making new memories.

We have a written list of EP's. We reviewed them last night and he is agreeable to all. So what further detail can I expect. I'm not sure what else he can physically do besides just follow through now. Am I wrong?

Also, would you let him move back or wait till after the vacation?

I would wait until after the vacation to let him move back. Talk to the Harley's first.

And you are right, he is the one who has to follow through.

The EP's need to be very detailed. He needs a plan for whatever happens. For instance, what if he is missing the OW? What if she calls him? What does he do if he is depressed, stressed, etc?

bruisedagain, another thing you could do is call DOCTOR Harley himself and ask him what he thinks about a relapse following FIVE FALSE RECOVERIES. I am amazed you are even still willing to try with someone who is so shockingly cavalier with your mental health. I would have shot him dead by now.

Most women do not do very well with this kind of abuse. And believe me, his adultery is abuse that is more traumatic than physical assault or rape. Women have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from being abused like this.

It wouldnt hurt to get a second professional opinion. You can call Dr Harley on his radio show here and send Joyce an email FIRST. [mon - fri 2pm cst]

Has this affair been exposed WIDE AND FAR? Does the OW parents know she is shagging a married man? What about all your own parents? Friends and family? Children? Everyone should know about this affair. Do they?

Bruised,
Were I in your shoes, the cover charge for him to even get back in the door of the house would be an ironclad post-nup that gives you everything in the event of any further infidelity. And outline exactly what you mean by infidelity, including unduly familiar relationships with another woman and any conversations of a sexual nature.

Make him put his money where his mouth is. He is not strong enough to deny himself temptation. He needs a hammer hanging over his head.

Believer-
So are you saying you would go on the vacation, see how he is/we are and then if going well, let him move in after that?

We have MC again on tues. Steve has actually said, see where I'm at the day before the trip, thinking I may be more ready for the trip by then. He told my WH that it could be a good thing for us if I feel ready for that by then.

As far as a post-nup goes. I'm really not into that sort of thing. I know a lot of people think they would walk by now, but it's really hard to walk away from 17 years when they are finally doing the right things, overpouring with I love you's and I'm sorry's that I never got before. Not to mention the accountability partner and EP's. If I left now I would always wonder, what if he was done that time and I was too scared to see. Yes I'm scared, but what's the alternative? This is what's so hard.

I am going to ask him to detail our EP list a little to include the above suggestions. Oh, and yes I have exposed to everyone, including the 23 y/o OW's mother.

I'm suggesting that you follow the Harleys advice. Ask hubby to firm up the EP's.

Just a caveat. I'm divorced. I don't regret trying to save my marriage. Affairs are addictive and many times I think my ex wanted to have no contact with the OW. He just couldn't seem to do it. And his affair went on for 3 and a half years.

You are very new in this.

Go on vacation. Try to have a wonderful time. When you get back, give it some time and work with the Harleys before hubby moves back in.

100% agree.
5 FR ... And WH wants to reward HIMSELF by taking a vacation with you?

In all honesty, could you even enjoy a romantic trip under these conditions?

WH just has SEX with OW, you need to worry about some things.
Pregnancy ?
Disease ?

You certainly have the right to accept this cheater back, and take whatever comes.
However, if he cheats again, NO ONE will be very shocked or surprised.

He's had no consequences.
He knows how to play the game.
He knows you, your strengths and your weaknesses. And he's an expert at playing you like a violin.

My advice is the same as Mels.
Ask to speak to Dr Harley, and get a second opinion !!!!!

I see one area of your weakness right here.
Nothing like "I love you" or an "I'm sorry" from a man who just recently boinked his young OW.

Do you honestly think that anything he says immediately after betraying you in the most awful way has any value long term?

No one has told you to "walk away".
Plan B is not walking away.
Plan B is self preservation.
Your WH must be an exceptional liar, in order for you to believe his sincerity with so little to back it up.


I strongly urge you to consider this question.
What have YOU learned about yourself during these FIVE false recoveries?
All the focus on this thread is about WH and his actions.
So, what about YOU?
What is YOUR plan of action for yourself to protect yourself?
I see nothing, so please, enlighten us.

God bless.

Well, are you into being cheated on over and over again? Are you into making it easy for your spouse to come and go with no feeling it if even in the pocket book?

A post nup is something that may help cement his resolve to resist if tempted to contact his OP.

Open your chest of tools here. Don't say a certain tool is something 'you are not into'!

Isn't this question for him to answer, not you? My thinking is it's his job to come up with how to prove that, and you will recognize it when you see it, and don't have to accept what he offers if it doesn't prove it to you.

Am I right?

I am so sorry that you are going through this, Bruised. One D-Day with immediate NC and months of trickle truth and defensiveness almost killed me.

I think that I would follow the advice that you are getting from the Harleys in your MC and go on this trip if you can stomache it. I would do it with conditions though and I would NOT let him move back in until you feel safe and confident enough that this time is different. He needs to earn this. He is obviously a worldclass manipulator and liar if he has put you through 4 FRs While counseling with the Harleys.

I would also make an MB weekend and posting on this forum an immediate condition and turn TST and Lousy Golfer and the other FWHs on here that make my DH look like an amateur FWH loose on him.

God's Blessings,

Say

Some more thoughts.



Where is WH's integrity here?
Where does WH mention "right vs wrong"?

Have you noticed that WH assumes the decision to remain married is entirely based on his feelings, not yours?
Have you noticed that WH's feelings change with the slightest breeze?

Have you noticed a lack of consistency.
Your consistency?

You want to believe your WH when he says he loves you, not her.
Yet, you want to disregard the opposite statement WH told you not more than a few hours previously.

You cherry pick the positive comments, and disregard the obvious ....
The obvious is, your WH has not recognized that his integrity is missing in action.
WH thinks that discovering which woman he "really loves" will answer the question whether or not he should abuse his WIFE, disregard his sacred VOWS, and trash his promises alongside his INTEGRITY.


WH is like a ping pong ball on a windy day.
Take him back home under these circumstances, without ANY insight on his part, and he is still vulnerable to other women the next time you and he aren't getting along.

WH does love you.
That's not the problem.
He is, for now, a man without integrity, without a moral compass.
A man like that, should not be trusted with something so valuable such as your heart.

May I suggest you ask WH to write you a letter, discussing his integrity.

"Honey, please write me a letter. Not a love letter, but a letter discussing integrity, and what your integrity means to you."

See what he says.
Is WH reading your MB posts?

PS:

Another dark spot on your WH's integrity .... He can go to OW under false premises, take her to bed for sex, then dump her hours later.

What a pig !!!!

How are you doing?