Tell us your side.

TR:

He has been here before.

But JK is stating how he is. He talks, but he doesn't walk.

And if ANYBODY can recognize that in a WH, its me.

LG

Sorry for the T/J...but LG, I just read and old thread about you Lousygopher...hahahahahahaha

Okay T/J over.

Mr. JK

There is help here but you have to be willing to take the punches knowing they are meant to be helpful and to guide you in whatever way you need to be shown the way back to a happy marriage. My FWH GreenMile was pounded over months over some issues that I think you could relate to. You sound entitled and oh so willing to let your wife do all the work. So was GM for the longest time, in fact he had done that our whole marriage. SO, from personal experience with these issues I would encourage you to pull up your big boy pants and take the hits. Mrs. JK is not your Mommy nor should she be expected to endure all these years of indignity. GM is so much happier the way our marriage works right now and so am I. We still have mountains to climb before we recover but these similar issues must be dealt with before you can really get very far and for Gods Sake make a list of EP's. A long list regarding very small things you do that lead to the big things. Hang them all over where you see them all the time and read them often with your wife. Once embedded in your brain you will really get the hang of being the man who can protect your marriage. When she sees you making these efforts she may be willing to stay a little longer and give this a shot.

This will not be easy but her path is much harder so take it and learn from it and then help her.

Ok, I'm here. Thanks to TheRoad for starting the thread for me. Bear with me people, I'm not to hip with the abbreviation lingo. It might be helpful if for a little bit you use the abbreviation and then spell it out. (e.g. EP (emotional priorities? huh?))

I guess I'll start with the trip to Lowes, here is what happened to the best of my recollection.

We were shopping in the garden section. JK was ahead of me and I was loitering in an aisle. I started looking at what appeared to be a woman in her 30s? (not sure, JK has a much better recollection of the appearance.) I realized that I was probably blocking the aisle so I moved the cart to a side aisle and and continued to gaze at the woman. Then I noticed that JK was headed to the check-out person so I followed. Once there I noticed that the same woman that I had previously been looking at was at the check-out area next to ours. I looked a bit more and finally saw what her face looked like. Then, because I was sort of hidden from JK by a couple of plants that we were buying, I decided to move over to JK so that she could see me.

When we got out to our vehicle JK asked about the woman that I had been looking at. I first said "What woman" but when JK said "you know what woman" I quickly changed to "right, that woman."

At first I wasn't completely congnizant of the damage that I had just done but by the next day I had a complete understanding of how badly I had hurt JK.

Tueday evening we had a chat with Kimberly and she agreed with me that I had been incredibly insensitive and, in my words, pretty stupid. She asked how I was going to address this behavior and I told her that I planned to make a point of looking at JK whenever I noticed an attractive woman in the vicinity. She told me that was a good idea.

Wednesday morning JK called me over to read a post in her thread. I was midway through the post when I noticed the word "droll" inserted in a place that seemed incongruous to me so I repeated the word as a question... 'droll?' Basically I was saying that I didn't understand the word used in that context.

This upset JK greatly and she left quickly and took the kids to school. While she was doing that I posted a response to the person whose post I had been reading. When I was done I started to leave from work and JK returned. I asked JK for a hug and a kiss before I left and she refused. That's why I was upset and later, on the phone, told JK that I felt alienated from her.

In the afternoon I spoke and was texting JK but she said that she didn't want to discuss it. I told her that I thought that something was wrong and it was scary to me that she wasn't telling me about it. A little while later I saw her post saying that she was probably leaving me. At that point I created a MB login and said "I feel like I'm going to throw up." Because I did.

That's my story...

I havent kept up with this story since yesterday....But I think it is soooo wonderful of you to post on this thread.....Good for you!

Thanks for posting. This is a good reminder to all of us of that old adage I tell my kids:

"There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, hers and the truth."

Welcome Mr. JK. You have just taken a huge step. As a BS I have to say that my FWH posting here and taking his lumps as I was learning was a very big step for me in the process. It will help her to feel a little safer because you will be in the constant process of thinking about all of this. Invested in recovery. I am pleased you are willing to do this.

What I'm getting from this is that, instead of focusing on the actual message to you in the "droll" post, you chose to focus on the word. JK was upset with you because of this. You then wanted a hug and kiss from her, which she refused because she was still upset. This upset you, so you told her that you felt alienated from her.

So, basically, it comes across to me that you think JK should keep from upsetting you, even when she is upset with you. It tells me that you consider your feelings more important than hers, and that you are entitled to what you want, when you want it, from her, regardless of how she feels.


So you kept gazing at the woman. Why? Wasn't there anything else to look at? So, you finally saw the woman's face...sounds as if that is why you kept looking. Were you wanting to make eye contact? Were you wanting to see if she would flirt with you?

In case you are thinking that staring at another woman is no big deal, bear in mind that the Bible teaches us that to lust after a woman is the same as committing adultery in one's heart.

Sorry MrJK but i have to agree with LC on this. I understand that it probably did make you feel alienated, however JK had a reason to be upset (even if it was her own reason and you do not agree with her being upset), it doesn't matter if you think she shouldn't be upset, she is anyway and acting like she shouldn't be is just saying that her feelings do not matter to you because she shouldn't ahve them.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that feelings ARE, there is no explanation and they can change at a later date, they just ARE, same as with you.

And "trying to see what the woman's face looked like"? Why?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...at&Number=1984040&gonew=1#UNREAD

Link to most common acronyms

Hoping you succeed and enjoy your time on MB forum.

JK believed that I was being "superior" instead of focusing on the message. In truth, I had not finished reading the message. That's why I chose to respond to the post in her thread, so that she would know what I really thought about it.



It is always very upsetting to me when JK chooses to withhold affection from me. I'm not sure that this makes be feel "entitled" but I sure would like it if we could always be in a place where affection is freely given. As you might guess, affection is a big EN for me.



Actually it was just by accident, she just happened to change position. She really wasn't anything to write home about (not that this matters.) I didn't nor did I want to make eye contact and I had zero interst in flirting. Frankly, I have no interest in flirting with anyone, period.

MisterJK, I think you're being very brave by posting on here.

I am still a little baffled as to WHY you continued to stare at the woman at all? I mean, when I'm out shopping, especially at a home and garden centre, I'm looking around at the products and the displays, not focusing on a man in the store....I guess I just don't understand the interest you had in her, whether she was pretty or not.

I don't understand this. You wanted her to know what you really thought about the post, so you didn't bother to finish reading it?

I see. So the problem is that she believed wrong?

That makes perfect sense. I don't expect JK to be emotionally available to me at all times but when she isn't I'm going to have an emotional reaction to it.

Can you list for us some reasons why your behavior was wrong? I can think of at least three.

MisterJK, can you list for us some new habits that you have formed through your Marriage Builders work?

That, Ma'am, is a very good question and one that I'm not sure I have a good answer for. I can only say that I must have been getting some kind of enjoyment out of it. I certainly had no lasting immpression from it, had JK not seen it happen I'd have never given it a second thought. I only know that I was being stupidly inconsiderate of JK.

MJK, your post has 'justification' written all over it. First of all, you recount the trip to Loew's as "to the best of my recollection". You are being disengenuous. Either you remember or you don't. You obviously remember the event if you remember moving around the plants at the checkout. So I can only assume that you're attempting to downplay this as something big only to your wife, and a non-incident to you. You are attempting to invalidate your W and that won't work, here.

Once again, you, sir, are being disengenuous and evasive. See my comment, above.

Why were you trying to evade her and act ignorant when you knew she'd busted you?
Don't play us, MJK. We've been around the block a few times. Are you trying to make us believe that you're this hapless husband who has suddenly been accused of looking at a woman, and you're not even sure what anyone is talking about, so you put it on your W to explain for you? I'll repeat Kim's comment: you know what woman.

Why was it important to see what her face looked like?

I see potential for you and JK, MJK. You need a little tweaking, though. I don't like all these passive attempts you're making to be a victim in this situation.

She was incorrect in this particular case. This is very rare occurence but one that is not completely unheard of.

DJ. You lose. Go back and study your Marriage Builders basic concepts again, please sir:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Mr JK,

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to make your wife THRILLED to have you as her husband.

Are you in?

Are you sure?

What's in it for you?

Happy wife = happy life

You have become a source of PAIN and frustration for your wife.

Read about love busters.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

If some habit of yours makes her UNhappy, it is something you should avoid doing.
Forever.

Are you in?

And once you know what makes her UNhappy, you do not need it RE-explained, right?

Are you in ?

First and foremost I hurt JK severely. This has caused a great deal of anger in me towards myself. Not only do I not want cause JK pain, I don't want to be a person that is capable of actions that cause her pain, be it deliberately or inadvertantly.

Secondly, this is a boundary for JK that we've previously discussed and a bad habit that I'd thought had been successfully banished.

Finally, I failed to protect JK by failing to keep my own vulnerabilities secure.

MrJK:

Glad you here.

Means that you really DO want to make a change.

There are many parallels between your M sitch, and mine.

Here is my original thread about Dday: Curtains for LG

That discovery day was in Aug 2005. I have fixed much about my marriage. I am not done yet, but I have come a long way.

Maybe you don't like to reveal much about yourself. And its tough to reveal yourself on the web for everyone to see. And you have to type this crazy stuff out. Its ok. Try your best.

If someone told you that you had to write 47 pages of information about your life, or your child was going to die, I'm sure you could come up with 47 pages of useful information ASAP.

Your sitch is that desperate.

Seriously.

There are times I thought over the years that JK was going to have a successful M, but then would come another post about you being a lunkhead. Not a "droll" lunkhead. Just a lunkhead.

Would you rather be perfect all the time? I'm sure you would be, but that is tough to do, and even harder to manage to actually get THERE.

Life isn't about perfect, its about what is possible, and trying every day to get it right.

JK posted her most recent thread about you "leering" at another woman in the garden section.

You provided your side:

It sounds, from your description, extraordinarily innocent. This "woman" was doing her shopping, and you happened to look, then you moved the cart and looked again.... And she happened to be in the next aisle at checkout, so you looked again. Sounds like it happened to be something that was there, like the cans of peas at the end of the aisle.

Unfortunately, the can of peas was squeezed into a short skirt and occupied your attention from the garden section to check-out, till you left the store.

You may think that "what's wrong with that?" Everything. I like to look at pretty women TOO. I have a big picture window on my office, and it looks out on the town square, so I can get eye fulls if I want. I close the blinds.... Because I can gawk. And until I was exposed to MB, I didn't know what these types of behaviors were doing to my darling Flamingo.

Flamingo has self-esteem issues. Parents who never told her of her siblings that she was good enough, or beautiful, etc.
A weight problem. A husband who looks at other women constantly.

And then that H goes and has an affair. Much like you.

So, do you think I was building her up? Do you think I was supporting HER? Do you think her self-esteem went into the green, or the red, after that?

And then to continue doing it, ALL THE TIME, after you start into recovery? Who attracts your attention?

NOT your WIFE! Who you already have tried to replace with your neighbor...

But you tell your WIFE that it didn't mean anything, and that it over, and that your WIFE is the important one.

So, when you get the chance, and you think no one is looking, your gawk at other, attractive woman, to the extent that you wife could have put a stop watch on you.

And you wonder WHY she withholds affection.

SHE doesn't get that look from you.

And SHE knows it.

And no matter WHAT she does, she isn't going to get that LOOK. And your marriage is toast, until you can understand, and correct that.

Dr Harley DOES have the answer. He tells you HOW to do this. JK notes that you two have read the books, done the counselling, and even went to the weekend. Your the only couple on this DB that has gone to the MB weekend, and DOESN'T have a better, more thriving marriage. And there have been MANY over the years.

So, the only thing that it comes down to is your reluctance to actually CHANGE your behaviors and CREATE a marriage that can be something to be proud of.

And a big one is to understand that "looking" can be hurtful. Its an action that goes beyond just the look. Because then you start thinking about what is behind the dress, then what might happen if she looks over, and then maybe, you can get her to engage in a covo, and then maybe, just maybe.......

It has already happened. You deny that you will allow it to happen again, but the reality is that you really haven't.
Maybe in the past, the likelyhood of you having and A was 30%, and you had an A. Now, you believe since you have "precautions" and maybe you are protected to 75%, that you will NOT have another A. But that final 25% is very evident. And JK knows this, even though you don't. 75% there is a passing grade, but it fails your marriage. You have to get to 100%. And learning the behavior of not staring down the "PYT,s" is a good first step.

And it is tough to do. You have 40 years of looking. It is a behavior that will take concentrated effort on your part to change. But it is the first step.

The next step will be learning to look at JK to be THE ONE.

Flamingo is to me. Wasn't that way for the first 15 years of marriage. She knew it. Now, I can't wait to see her at lunch time, and at home, and any other time.

She worked on the weight problem, and continues doing so.
She redid her hair, and actually blow drys it every morning, just for ME.
She bought better looking clothing, and got rid of the "sweats" around the house.

Understand, Physical Attractivness is high on my EN scale. Flamingo responded to that once she learned about it. But I have been changing my behaviors to address my lack of meeting her Domestic Support and Family Committment needs. And she can't wait to see me either.

I kicked the last little bit of self-esteem out from underneath Flamingo when I had my A. Its a LONG road back. But I have worked hard to help her recover, and to build her self-esteem.

Everytime I "linger" in a look at another woman, I am rekindling in Flamingo the paths that allowed me to have an A. I am no longer the NEW LG, I am just the old WH.

And that terrifies her.

So, I changed my behaviors. I close the curtains. I look at Flamingo, and I look away intentionally. I stop drinking in the world with my eyes.

Behaviors.

I am not asking you to grow a third arm, I am asking you to change your behaviors. And you can do that. If your were a Marine, your learned some new things when you went to Basic Training. THIS is your new boot camp.

LG

Mr JK ~

Right now you are the source of your wife's greatest unhappiness. This is your biggest problem right now and you should be focusing on NOTHING ELSE other than eliminating this.

Unless you want to be divorced, which I don't think you do.

I really do think you need to figure out WHY you continue doing things that make her unhappy.

She has been through enough, don't you think?

Now, I'd like for you to look at this again. Pretend you are a fly on the wall and are watching this unfolding. Can you find three things that look wrong with this picture? Don't feed us pablum, MJK. Don't tell us what you think we want to hear. Tell us what was physically wrong with the actions of the man in the event described below:

Lousygolfer,

Thank you very much for your time and advice.

That was very well said, I agree wholeheartedly and plan to act accordingly.

I have to admit that I'm a little lost on this one. Can you be a little more explicit?

Thanks.

MrJK:

This line:


Should be:



Big Difference.

Planning is good. In this case, Just Do.

LG

Stick with LousyGopher, he won't steer you wrong.

:::Cue Caddyshack theme song:::

I gave you a link. Go click on it and read it. And then click all the links on that page and read them. Read the entire basic concepts section.

I said you've committed a DJ. If you don't know what that is, it's very easy to find out. Pepperband gave you a link to read all the acronyms. I find your request that we spell things out to you incredibly lazy. This will never work if you expect other people to do all the work and spoonfeed you, and if it doesn't change I am going to do my best to encourage your wife to get herself away from you, because a marriage to someone who puts forth so little effort that he won't even read when links are handed to him is sure to be incredibly damaging to her.

You've had four years. You ought to know this stuff by now. We can't catch you up. You are going to have to do so yourself.

Thanks, Pep!

But isn't the rule...Make sure they spell your name right?

LOL

LG

Sure.

Mostly this involves meeting JKs ENs. She loves cards, flowers, and other little tokens. I get her things like this a couple times a month now (previously it was more like never.) The other day I got her pez mints, two of her favorite things in one package.

Lately I've been focusing on trying to make her feel desired. I've recently had something of a revelation in this department and I'm trying to change how I go about doing some things. We'll see how that goes.

I've become pretty good at general conversation, one of JKs big ENs.

We both are big on affection and recreational companionship, those ENs have been easy for me to meet for her.

One of her biggest needs is the one that I find to be the most difficult, that's honesty and openness. As you may have read elsewhere, I've had some passive aggressive tendencies for a large part of my life and I continue to work on this. Openness, however, is the hardest one for me. While I think that I've made some progress here being able to express emotions continues to be a very difficult task for me. Again, I'm working on that stuff.

Then there's changing or breaking bad habits which is the reason I'm here right now. While I know that there's been progress made here clearly it's a work in progress.

Here is a simple idea that will never steer you wrong.

If you are looking at your wife when you are out, it's very difficult to look at others.

Look at her, appreciate her beauty or whatever you wish. There may be others who appear more beautiful, but that's simply an exercise in frustration.

I've yet to hear of a husband get in trouble for looking at his wife too long.

It's really sometimes just that simple.

After she left I finished reading the post and then replied to it.

I do remember the events, but in a broad way. JK remembers them in much finer detail because she was focused on them. For example, she could recount the womans entire outfit to me while I could barely remember anything about her. I'm not trying to use this as an excuse or justification, it just is.




That was a very poor reaction, agreed.



No. It was my fault and it is my job to make it right. I have no excuses.




It wasn't, that I saw it at all was kind of random.

I accept.

Yes.

Yes.

Quite a bit actually.

Agreed.

I know, that's why I'm here.

Will do.

My H is now my hero.

One of the new habits he developed after his A is the following:

H to Pep: " Is there anything I can do for you today?"

Music to my ears.
It is so effective that I decided to ask him the same question, every day.

Give it a try.
Best wishes.

Since I'm not really sure what you're asking I'll just say that spending any amount of time looking at a woman that isn't my wife is damaging to both her (my wife) and our relationship not to mention just not a very nice thing to do.

But you said "I looked a bit more and finally saw what her face looked like."
As in Mission Accomplished. As in seeing her face was a goal of yours.

Have you looked at my post asking you to describe your event in third person? I'm trying to get you to look at it outside of yourself. Can you respond to that post? I'd be interested to see your take on it.

Sorry, I believe that I've misled you. I wasn't interested in seeing her face and by that point (much too late) I was no longer interested in watching her at all.

I start a thread and all I get are weak excuses and justifications.

Well at least it is a start.

Mister JK,

One of the things my WH said to me in regard to his fling with the STD Tramp was "She was nothing to me."

That remark INFURIATED me!

My response to him was, "So...if she was "nothing" to you, then that means that, for however long it took for you to boink her, I was LESS than nothing to you."

Your staring at the woman and your attempts to downplay it is also saying that, for the length of time you were staring at the woman, your wife and her feelings were not important to you.

Trying to excuse one's horrid and hurtful behavior as not being important is a HUGE no-no!

I think he will turn around.
Hopefully, it won't be too late when he does.

MrJK-

About this:

Anything you did to make your BW feel desired was completely erased because of your choice to focus your attention on another woman, especially in the company of your BW. You destroyed every attempt you made to help her feel like she was special again when you did this.

You might want to peruse "Every Man's Battle" and "Every Man's Marriage". These books are written by men, for men.

Actually, MJK, this is a good thing. I would prefer to see you respond this way as opposed to "I couldn't wait to see if her face was a hot as her body" or some other trash like that.

I'm no therapist and I don't even play one blahblahblah But it seems like you have a habit to look at women as objects - like you depersonalize them. Please respond to my other post. Let me rephrase what I'd like you to do: I would like to see you retell what happened at Loew's, but I'd like to you play the role of some other customer watching the whole thing unfold.

Start it like this: I was at Loew's the other day and saw this guy pushing a cart with his wife...how would you finish this?

MR JK
As the guilty party for injecting the word droll, I must congratulate you for your courage in coming here to learn. Perhaps you felt that droll was incongruous and perhaps it was however I got the sense that it may not be. Droll "amusing in an odd way" as the definition is that I believe your behavior is a reflex borne out of attitude.

I believe it is attitude infused actions that your wife is reacting to. It seems that our attitudes change once we have been broken, once we have reached bottom and given up all pretense and the masks we carefully craft to cover up our insecurities. I think Marriage Builders is excellent at realigning actions. And if I understand the process feelings will follow. And hopefully eventually attitudes.

So the question I have is there something within you that causes you to withhold? You are admittedly passive aggressive, and that indicates to me you are trying to protect yourself. What is it you are trying to protect yourself from. From my observations passive aggressive personalities try to control the situation in an attempt to minimize the potential of being hurt. And it is natural that we want to protect ourselves, however the barriers we put in place for protection can also impair us from experiencing the things we desire in a relationship.

You hedged your bets by having an affair. You signaled to your wife she is not sufficient and you considered her an option. Marriage is forsaking all others. That is the contract, are you able to fulfill your part of the deal? Does your wife know you love her with abandon? Does she get the sense you are all in? What is preventing you from being all in?

Good Luck. There are lots of folks wanting to see you succeed. Including me.

Blessings
BCBoy

Agreed. It was thoughtless and insensitive behavior and I am ashamed that I did it.

I know. Not only did I hurt her I set my own efforts back years.



Thanks for the tip johnstwin.

Actually it quite the opposite, I have a great deal of respect for women and, in general, I enjoy their company as friends and colleagues. I don't want to get into details about my psychological profile but, if anything, I tend to attribute more power to women than they actually have.



So, I was in Lowes shopping with my wife when I saw some squirrelly dude ogling some woman who was totally dressed inappropriately for shopping at a hardware store. I said, �Dude! Check out the rogue male perve checking out the tube-top woman! Then I noticed that the rogue male wasn�t rogue at all! He was attached to a lovely woman shopping for plants a few feet away from him. �What a sleazebag� I thought, �I hope that his wife catches him and catches holy hell.� I then apologized to my wife for each and every time I�ve looked at another woman since we�ve been together.

Okay, I'll buy that. I hope that you'll forgive me, though, if I fail to find anything about this situation amusing.



These are the things that I've been working on in myself since D-day. I came to understand that I have had a lot of behaviors, P/A behaviors included, that didn�t serve me well. I�ve been working changing these behaviors ever since. JK has seen many of the changes that I�ve made but she is naturally skeptical regarding their extent. This is why I am so infuriated with myself and how I�ve undercut the progress that I had been making in reinventing myself.



Sadly, no.



I believe that I am despite evidence to the contrary.



Thank you BCBoy.

Now that it's gotten a little quiet in here let me explain some of the precautions that I've taken to protect my marriage.

I work around 40-45 minutes from home, seemingly a perfect situation to indulge in misbehavior, right? So this is what I do:

There are a couple of women in my work group. The one that I work with the most is gay (thankfully!) and the other has always seemed somewhat hostile towards me. I don't know why that might be and I haven�t spent any time trying to find out. Neither of these people represents any kind of threat to JK.

There are lots of women in this office, some of whom I come in contact with in a professional capacity. I�ve made a point to make sure that these contacts always stay on a professional level only. I have no idea what goes on in anyone else�s private life and vice versa. I�ve wanted to introduce JK to my co-workers since I got here so that she would be comfortable with my work environment but she�s always declined.

The only not strictly professional activities that I have participated in have been the occasional going away lunch or lunch with consultants. I normally each lunch by myself. I usually go out, buy something, and then return to my office to eat. I go to different places every day so I haven�t developed any kind of relationship with any food servers.

I usually call JK several times a day, on my way to work, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon, and on my way home. Often I can�t reach her as she tends to be very busy. If she tries to call me for any reason and I can�t pick up immediately I text her to let her know what�s going on (usually it�s because I�m in a meeting.)

I recently got an opportunity to work at home, alongside JK, and I jumped at it. There are a lot of reasons for this but mostly it is because I love spending my days with JK and being with her each day will hopefully ease any suspicions that she may have about me. I�m looking forward to starting this new job and very much looking forward to being able to spend my days with JK. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten this opportunity.

Stop saying what you think people want to hear. (In this case, READ)

Your rewriting of the Lowes incident is like a stick in the eye.

And this is the type of attitude that JK has been dealing with for YEARS. All talk, no action.

It wasn't a "squirrlly dude". It was YOU, trying to look at an attractive young woman. I'm sure in any conversation with any one you respect, would you EVER refer to yourself a "squirrelly"

Then with the rest you just went over the top.

Had the two of us been doing the shopping, and had watched this play out, I'm sure the convo would have been much different.

LG: MrJK, check out the Tube Top woman by the plants....
MrJK: Wow, I love this summer weather....
LG: Oh, yeah, check out that guy by the watering cans, his eyes are bugging OUT!
MrJK: Oh, man, he really is, he just can't get enough of that...
LG: Lets see how this plays out....
MrJK: Yeah, see how he pushed that cart out of the way, and then moved that Plant, can you believe it, its like he never saw a woman before, you think he just got out of prison?
LG: Incoming on the RIGHT, looks like his Wife is coming down the aisle from the other direction...
MrJF: Wow, It lloks like she is ignoring it!
LG: Lucky guy!
MrJK: The woman is moving over towards the checkout line..
LG: Yeah she is, and cart-man is going to the check out too, notice how he is staying behind his wife while he continues to ogle tube top woman?
MrJK: Classic move to avoid discovery!
LG: Look at him at the check out, he STILL can't stop...
MrJK: Uh oh, appears that the Wife has noticed, she is looking at him, and has been for about 30 seconds, he still hasn't noticed....
LG: Yeah, gonna be trouble for him, how about that "almost" perfect game yesterday?

And away we go...

Which is more realistic. Yours? Which would be TRUE if you where just trying to blow smoke, or mine? Which would be two guys watching? Or even one.

There would be very little name-calling of the guy, except for the obviousness of the sitch. No "sleaze-bag", "perve" or other deragatory terms.

And I am sure that your daily conversation take this behavior pattern as well.

I can see it on your thread already.

You going to say what others like to hear, and then do what you want to do, NOBODY is telling you how to act.

Been There, Done That.

Flamingo doesn't tell me HOW to act. She tells me WHAT HURTS HER, and I work not to act that way anymore.

Think about it that way for awhile.

You can do anything you want, in any manner, until it starts to hurt others. And then when you know it hurts others, and you continue, it becomes extraordinarly scary at that point.

Change your behaviors.


LG

None of this is very realistic LG. I just don't tend to pay much attention to stuff like this. Usually it's JK that will bring these things to my attention (hey, look at the rogue male!) and I just sort of go along with it.

When we're out I usually spend most of my time focusing on JK while occasionally glancing at the game on the corner TV.

I asked JK yesterday whether or not she�d been vigilant in keeping an eye on the focus of my eyes lately and she said no, that she had come to trust that I wasn�t checking women out. This was both good and bad news to me. Good in that at some point I actually had regained a measure of trust and bad because I�ve now lost that trust that I�ve been working so hard to regain. It�s also bad news because I can�t point to that and say �See? It really was an anomaly.�

LG, quite honestly I could really care less what anyone here (no offence) thinks of me, I�m not writing what I think that y�all want to hear. I only care (and care immensely) what JK thinks of me.

I know that I effed up. I�m not trying to sugar-coat or minimize it. The only things that matters to me at this time is that I hurt JK and taking the steps necessary to fix it. I�m desperately trying to regain my footing with JK so that we can continue building our relationship. I am absolutely disgusted with myself with how I�ve hurt JK. That is why I�m here LG.

Made an appointment with Steve Harley for next week. Got the ball rolling on taking a polygraph test. Off we go...

Good luck!
Be the best you can be.

YAY! Steve is wonderful and will be a huge help and just scheduling the polygraph will do a lot toward making JK feel better.

MJK,

What were you so angry about tonight?

Mr JK - right answers don't count here.

If you can find the recording for this song in I-Tunes, you ought to play it every time you act differently than you answer. If you've heard the song "Dream Big", it was originally recorded by Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band along with this song (the whole CD is good, but this song speaks to you, personally.)


Good luck to you in keeping your wife captive anymore while you behave rudely and badly. Don't blame her, fix yourself!

WS's lie, we all know that and I'm sure that you would agree with that Mr.JK,
since dishonesty allowed your A to happen and continue.

So that lying, is one of the LB's that needs to be addressed and fixed.
The fact that you initially did not acknowledge the woman that you were gawking at, when your wife asked you about her, says that you still have that habit of dishonesty.

This was to avoid getting into trouble with your wife, and make yourself look better.

I steal posts sometimes, quite often from Mark, he's not yelled at me yet and I hope that Schoolbus won't either!

Here is a part of a post that will be of help to you, if you choose to believe it.

MrJK: I don't care if you like me either....

But I WAS in your shoes four years ago.

Look how far I have come. And look how far you have.

If JK's bar too high for you? Do you think she is being too tough on you?

JK isn't nearly as tough as Flamingo.

We have done the same things as you two. The MB Weekend, the follow-up consulting, and read the books. We didn't pay for an MC, but I paid for some IC since.

So, according to JK, your in or about the same spot as you were before the affair.

You may feel that your not. But the only true barometer of that is JK. Not you. Flamingo is my guage, and if she isn't happy, then I am working on something else.

The Lowes incident is a very small piece of this. There is so much more. It just happens to be the catalyst of change that needs to be made.

Are you willing?

LG

It wasn't so much anger as it was me starting to withdraw. It's a really REALLY bad habit of mine. When I got home from work JK announced that she was taking our son our without me. She changed her mind when I told her that doing that would be hurtful to me. Then we had a discussion that centered on how my JK believes that I am passive/aggressive. These discussions always include a number of what feels to me like disrespectful judgments and so they tend to put me way off-balance. Add to that the fact that we had gone out, I had promised not to "be vague," and I was paranoid about looking anywhere but at the floor. I wasn't exactly Mr. Charisma.

JK pointed out that I was being 'mean' to her so I tried getting out of it by telling her that I was sorry and giving her a kiss but it was too late. She left the restaurant and we (my son and I) finished up quickly and left.

Still looking for the right sized wrench KaylaAndy. Shoot, it's got to be in this toolbox somewhere...

Thanks for the lyrics. Actually I'm more of an indie rock guy. I'm listening to Edmonton by the Rural Alberta Advantage where the first line is "What'll I do if you never want to come back?"

Seems appropriate for the moment.

I didn't say that. I'm just saying that the only opinion that matters to me is JK's.




I'm glad she did. I suppose that I bears repeating that we are here because of me, I am completely aware of this and I am responsible for fixing it.

I wish that JK had raised the bar ages ago so that I would have gotten my stuff in gear much earlier. I'm not blaiming her here, BTW. It's my own fault that we haven't made much more progress.

Nevertheless, here we are and I'm determined to make it work. JK is worth the effort, JK matters so very much to me.

W/drawal isn't an emotion it is an action.

There's nothing wrong w/ feeling angry.

Not. One. Thing.

Do you believe that?



Independent behavior is an LB.



Good job telling her how that action would make you feel. And she did a good job changing her mind to include you.

But, you still felt hurt/angry that she wanted to go out w/o you, didn't you?



Off balanced? Not angry?



What does that mean? How does one not be vague? And why did you promise not to be vague if you didn't want to?



Paranoid? Really? Or were you just angry b/c of the LBs that had been dropped earlier?


You weren't even close to this, were you? You behaved badly, didn't you?

MJK,

Is this a fair summary of what happened?

When you got home, JK told you she and your son were going out to dinner w/o you. When you told her how hurtful that would be to you, she agreed to allow you to come w/ them.

Even though she changed her mind, you were still hurt/angry about it. Instead of saying so, you clammed up, but began to allow your anger to "leak out".

When she began to feel your leaks, she started to DJ you. Complaining not just about your present behavior, but taking swipes at your mental health too.

By the time you got to the restaurant, you were seething...or pretty close to it. And when you thought about how you had to figure out how not to be vague... or passive aggressive... and be careful not to look at any other women, you had created quite a pot of resentment stew for yourself...

And you were "leaking" bigtime.

Did I come close?

I think it's fair. I'm sure JK would have a different take

I don't think that there was any residual anger at all from the son thing. There may have been some leftover resentment from the P/A discussion but mostly I was subdued and not interacting very well with JK. Nothing overt, mind you, just a lack of smiles, touches, and so on. JK is very sensitive to my moods and has lately had a very short fuse when it comes to tolerating anything other than 'good' from me.

Being 'vague' is basically my natural form of communication. I tend to communicate with the least amount of information possible and wait for a response before delivering more. This makes JK crazy because she is a BIG communicator of both fact and emotion and she wants this style returned. To her, my brevity is a indicator of P/A behavior because to her my lack of generosity with communication is a form of control. Regardless, I've been trying to communicate better with more content of both fact and emotion for Kim's sake.

That's not all it was. You were not honest w/ her when she asked you what was wrong, were you?



Why do you do this?

It sounds like something one would do if one were trying to keep things hidden.

Example 1

JK: MJK, what's wrong?

MJK: I'm just trying not to look at other women.

TRUTH: You were PO about what MJ said earlier.

Example 2

JK: I saw you looking at that woman.

MJK: What woman?

JK: The woman I saw you gawking at in there w/ the tube top.

MJK: Ohhhh, THAT woman.

This is called lying, MJK.

Not a communication style.



This isn't about her being frustrated b/c you are the strong silent type. She is frustrated that you are not being honest w/ her.

Lying is a Huge, and I mean HUGE love buster.

And the fact that you poo poo this away as if it is simply a matter of a communication style preference is absolutely infuriating!

And yes, crazy making/gaslighting.

That's what JK believes. I'm making a huge effort to do a better job at this. I'm trying to remind myself not to stop after the first sentence but to continue with the thought by explaining why I feel that way or what brought me to that conclusion. It's a struggle for me to break the habits of years and years of communicating this way. In my previous relationships this had never been a problem as I tended to be with women who were far more self absorbed than JK.

Lying, to me, is a completely separate issue and an even bigger LB for JK. I agree that my reaction to being confronted was initially poor. I tried to fix that as soon as I realized what I was doing. I'm not sure what else I can do about that except be aware of this tendency in me and try to repress it.

I'm open to any and all suggestions about any of this. My recent conversations with JK have led me to believe that I need therapy to, at a minimum, determine who and what I really am and them presumably take steps to make things better.

Do you find that any of these apply? (If they do, it might give you a framework for a therapeutic specialty, so that you don't wind up with a therapist that doesn't address the core issues)

1. Adult children of alcoholics guess at what normal behavior is.

2. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty following a project through from beginning to end.

3. Adult children of alcoholics lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.

4. Adult children of alcoholics judge themselves without mercy.

5. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty having fun.

6. Adult children of alcoholics take themselves very seriously.

7. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty with intimate relationships.

8. Adult children of alcoholics overreact to changes over which they have no control.

9. Adult children of alcoholics constantly seek approval and affirmation.

10. Adult children of alcoholics usually feel that they are different from other people.

11. Adult children of alcoholics are super responsible or super irresponsible.

12. Adult children of alcoholics are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved.

13. Adult children of alcoholics are impulsive. They tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsively leads to confusion, self-loathing and loss of control over their environment. In addition, they spend an excessive amount of energy cleaning up the mess.

Yes, being aware is helpful. Of course doing the right things so that you don't feel the need to lie about it later is even more helpful.

Another suggestion would be to apologize as soon as possible when you have lied....told a half truth...down played a lie.

Have you apologized for lying about the girl in the store?

Or about having lied about why you were angry at dinner?

If not, hop to it.

Not only will it give JK something to feel positive about...and even hopeful that you will change your behavior, but it will make YOU feel better about yourself too.

What ever we do to others we do to ourselves even more. If we lie to others, we are lying to ourselves. And then we get to the point where we don't trust ourselves. How awful is THAT?

So, you need to pay attention to your selftalk too. If you say to yourself that as soon as you get done w/ your lunch you will go outside and cut the grass, then see that you DO IT! It is a small step in learning to trust yourself again.

And if you are careful and watchful over yourself, it will lead to riding dirt bikes w/ your stepson like you said you would!

How awesome would that be?

But, it starts w/ YOU!



But isn't it the truth?

Didn't the two examples I sited in an earlier post show that is what you did?



If this was JUST about changing your communication style it would be easy!

All you would have to do is repeat to yourself, "Details, JK, needs more details. I will be sure to tell her the conversation I overheard today in great detail."

Easy cheesy.

When was the last time JK got angry at you b/c you were scant on the details that don't concern you? Or her?

Details make conversations more interesting to women. But, boring conversations don't piss us off.

Dishonesty does.

Geee....all 14 fit me...

no doubt Karma - these are not traits we choose, but traits we acquire as a matter of survival. There are a number of them I've overcome, but still have work to do on others.

And here I was thinking it was something else wrong with me.

At least I can have a concrete idea now.

(Sorry to T/J! )

KaylaAndy thanks.

I don't think this applies to me. I'm the product of a differnet dynamic although it may have been just as disfunctional.

Besides communicating with detail I also struggle with expressing and sometimes even identifying emotions. I haven't been to therapy but my feeling is that this is a product of my extreme, almost debilitating, shyness as a child. I learned to suppress emotions and never learned how to adequately and constructively express them.

I don't know if that was a product of outside stimuli or if it was just bological for me.

I don't think so, good point.



The interesting thing about this is that JK pointed out to me that there are only four base emotions, mad, sad, scared, and glad. I didn't see myself as being 'mad' with the resentment that I was holding but since that particular emotion falls under the �mad� category then I guess that�s what I was.

I told you that I have trouble sometimes identifying my own emotions!

So, yes, I�ll apologize for that one too.



Maybe for you, for me it�s necessary that I be completely �present� in the moment and that requires some real work on my part. Not easy cheesy.

Good job w/ your apologies!!

MJK,

I asked you earlier if you believe that there is nothing wrong w/ feeling anger, and you didn't reply.

I asked you if you were feeling angry at dinner and you said no, but you w/drew.

Of course, w/drawal is NOT an emotion. It is a response to feeling angry.

I just posted this on JK's thread...


Does any of this ring true for you?



I'm sorry.

I guess I just thought that a lack of details was not the main issue. It could easily be addressed by JK asking you questions.

Being a man of few words can describe most men. It is NORMAL. Most women roll their eyes at their H's when they didn't notice things that we wouldn't have missed, but we don't get upset over it.

The issue of w/holding information about you or JK IS a more serious issue.

Did you read the thread on EP's? It was linked over on JK's thread, while you were still reading and posting over there.

Here is another thread. Anatomy of Adultery

This one is on the steps of how an A starts.

I was recently rereading it.
It's one of the most painful threads to read.
It takes a BS back to how the most horrible and debilitating event of your M, unfolded. I read and I see how these steps are mirrored in my own H's A.
And because these steps were kept a secret, there was nothing that I could do to stop this A from happening.

Realize this, this not knowing that our spouse was capable of this deceit, and did it to perfection right in front of our faces, is no easy feat to overcome.
This is where the EP's come in. The are steps that you do, to protect us from fearing the unknown, one that we really have no control over.


Take note of the steps that you do, or almost do, now. (in the first 5 or so, can't remember exactly )
While you believe that you will never have another A, every one of the actions required in those steps, are triggers and red flags for a BS.
These are the actions that you must stop and prevent, in order to convince JK that your #1 priority is to make her feel safe and protected from a repeat A.

These obvious and not so obvious behaviours, scream at us that our WS is still present and not thinking of us.
It's pretty much saying that we don't matter, that you the spouse who had the A, you don't care about our feelings.
Basically, your feelings are more important than the hurt that you caused us.


You didn't acknowledge the post that I quoted by schoolbus.
Do you see yourself thinking like that?
If so, have you practiced what she suggested?

I think that if you or someone you feel connected to in some way is attacked or hurt then it's a perfectly normal reaction to feel anger. Angry outbursts, expecially when directed towards your spouse, are love busters and should be avoided. JK says that the only emotion that I'm comfortable is anger (though I think that this might be hard to reconcile with me being P/A at the same time.)

According to the book I'm reading it's normal for adults in our society (especially men) to be uncomfortable with public emotion with except for anger. Anger seems to be accepted and expected.

I think that in general I'm pretty comfortable with being angry, it's the other ones that I really need to work on. I'm working on both the expression of emotions that I'm aware of and also being able to recognize them when they appear.




It makes sense to me now that I'm associating feelings of resentment with the general category of being 'mad'.



And yet this gets murky. If I'm in my normal, unfocused state I can easily be communicating in a way that makes JK think that I'm trying to hide something. My challenge is to make sure that I am 'present' when we are communcating so that what I'm sending is detailed enought that JK feels like she's getting the whole story. This includes an emotional component that I'm only learning now how to include by default.

MrJK,

A lot of stuff is being thrown at you to read and I know it can be a bit overwhelming at times, but I have one more link for you to look at. It isn't from this site but from that of the late Shirley Glass. The link is to what she called "Quizzes" that indicate vulnerability to an affair. This is what Extraordinary Precautions are really all about. It also refers to another term thrown around here quite often, that of "Boundaries" which though sometimes misused by some to mean things we want to see change in others really has more to do with those things that define us and what we will do or not do under certain circumstances.

So the link: Shirley Glass - Quizzes

Look at them when you get time. While the answers to the questions can indicate a problem, the questions can give you some better ideas as to where your own EPs need to be strongest.

Dr Harley's whole program revolves around one simple premise; that is, just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively as it relates to emotions. The goal of Marriage Builders is to maximize those things that cause a positive emotional response while minimizing those things that cause a negative response to us and what we do or have done in the past.

That is really what often gets lost in many of the conversations around here that tend to focus on specific behavior changes and individual situations. The idea that we can do anything that is truly independent of our spouse and does not matter to our spouse is what needs to be jettisoned. Even things we think will not have any effect actually do concern our spouse.

Something as simple as what we eat for lunch while not necessarily something our spouse has any immediate reaction to or even realizes that she might have any reason to even consider can in the long term affect our relationship. If we eat junk food, gain a lot of weight, damage our heart or other organs in our bodies, in the big picture, these things can negatively affect our spouse.

This is really why Dr Harley came up with his Policy of Joint Agreement. It is to remind us that no matter what we do, there are consequences, some of them even beyond what we can immediately see, that affects the relationship between ourselves and our spouse.

It comes down in the long run to a change in the way we think and not just a change in what we do. By making an effort to only do those things that are best for the relationship and avoiding doing anything that is harmful to it, our actions begin to change, not simply as the result of learning a new action to replace an old one, but because we are striving to put our spouse's feelings ahead of our own selfishness in everything we do.

Ultimately, this is the light-bulb moment when we begin to grasp the fact that once we are married, we are merely a part of something bigger than just ourselves and abandon the notion that we are still independent individuals who can live our life as if what we did had no effect on the status and emotional state of our spouse. The change in our thinking is what leads to the change in our actions and choices rather than merely changing what we do to avoid the negative consequences that affect us when our spouse is unhappy with what we have already done. It becomes then a matter of putting the marriage ahead of everything we do rather than subjugating the marital relationship to our own desires at any given moment in time.

And yes; almost all of my posts are like this...

Mark

What I do is try to never do anything that would make me feel like I need to lie. Prior to the (rather large) exception of the A I�ve been mostly truthful with JK in the sense that I never really did anything that I needed to lie about. The problem at that time was that I wasn�t being honest with her; I was telling her that I was fine when I was far from fine. I wasn�t being honest with my emotions.

Nowadays things are a little different. I still try to maintain my rule of thumb about never doing anything that would make me feel like I need to lie about it. The big difference is that I�m making an effort to be honest with her. Obviously this is a work in progress. First, I need learn to be more honest with myself about what I�m feeling and do a better job of identifying those emotions. Then, I need to do a beter job or expressing those emotions appropriately to JK.

MJK

I can identify with part of your struggle. We are close in age, and I suspect your upbringing taught you as a boy and a man emotions are not to be experienced. I think I read you were a marine. I suspect this environment reinforced that idea. From an early age is suspect you were taught the same thing I was. The 3 P's, Provide (for your family), Protect (your family), Performance (at your job and home). There can be a false sense of security in thinking if we do these three things we are golden, women will swoon around us because we are the macho men.

Times have changed. Expectations on us as men are different. We are expected to understand emotions and be able to navigate them. From your last post I got the sense you understood, like I did, the acceptable emotion for a man is anger, It is linked to performance, (get outta my way etc.). As men we need to establish the link between our head and our hearts, as I have come to understand this is the foundational tool on which a relationship with a woman is built.

It is going to take a lot of work. Not only do you have a relationship to repair, you have yourself to repair, to realign, reconstruct some of those old ideas and attitudes. This is not a quick fix, you will have to relearn new tools from all those years of training.

Perhaps the interim step is to throw yourself on the mercy of the court. Be radically honest with her, be sincere, about your desires, and your fears. Perhaps she needs to know how much you want to reconcile this marriage. That you are working hard. I don't think holding back (Passive / aggressive) is going to serve you well.

Good luck and blessings to you and your family.

Vittoria,

I read through the list. I do not do ANY of these things.

In my previous job I had a female friend (JK knew about her) that I would meet each morning along with two or three other people for coffee. We were friendly. I knew about her husband and kid and she know about JK and kids. Even then I made sure that I never shared anything personal about me or my relationship with JK. I also knew that she probably had a little thing for me but it didn�t make me uncomfortable because I had once heard her announce to our little group that she would never consider having an affair. For my part I had zero interest in her except as a co-worker and to listen to her complain about the bosses.

After I left that company JK and I were talking about her and I told her (thinking nothing of it) that I thought that she probably had a thing for me. It was then that I learned that to JK knowing something like that and not sharing it was completely unacceptable. Since then I�ve done nothing even remotely similar to that, my co-workers at my current job are acquaintances and nothing more. When I meet any of JKs female friends or acquaintances I�m polite but otherwise stay in the background. There is no way that I�ll be going down that path again, not ever.

I like it Mark, informative without being preachy.

I'll get to your link as soon as I can.

I'm curious - if you thought nothing of it, why did you not mention it to JK until after she was gone?

See, if I were JK, my mind would be racing a mile a minute with this knowledge. That you always thought she had something for you and you still met all the time for coffee. Doesn't matter if others were there - in my mind, you would be meeting in this cozy little coffee place with someone who had the hots for you. It's a short drop to meeting her alone for coffee.

I don't know that you need to grab a phone and frantically call JK any time you think a woman has looked at you more than once. But I'm wondering why, if you felt this vibe from her, you didn't remove yourself from these morning coffee klatches?

So you think there is a good kind of anger and a bad kind of anger?

I think there are good kinds of behavior and bad kinds of behavior. But, I don't look at feelings in the same way.

If I get PO b/c someone cut me off in traffic, I don't beat myself up over having the feeling. I acknowledge the feeling. And then let it go. No judgement over the rightness or wrongness of the feeling.



Ok, now you're talking about responses to anger....not feelings of anger.

I think you may be blurring the two.

I don't know if you are religious, but the Bible says, "Be angry, but sin not."

The feeling of anger is OK, but what you do w/ it (your behavior) might not be.

Mr. JK, so far now there are 2 perfect examples, (keep being honest with your posting, this is to your benefit!) of how you are lying to youself,
or maybe a better way to put it is, refusing to recognize actions that are harmful to your M.

I'll do my best to organize some of this, it won't be near as good as the poster who wrote the quote. (this may be the last time I steal quotes, lol)

You can EASILY tell when you are lying to yourself.

1. When what you say or do is meant to cover up or hide something you do not want someone else to know.
The Lowes store incident ..... you tried to hide your gawking of that attractive female when JK came around. (with not much success)
And then denied it, initially.

2. When what you say or do is meant to make yourself appear better than you really are.
The fact that you downplayed the incident in the Lowes store, makes you look better to yourself, and only to yourself.

3. When what you say or do is meant to make yourself appear better than another person.

4. When what you say or do is for the purpose of getting what YOU want - when what you SHOULD be saying or doing would better benefit someone ELSE.
I believe that you wanted to see the Lowes woman's face to see if it matched the hot body, in turn you would get your fix.
You continued on with being in the presence of this woman, (we're in the coffee shop scenario now) who you knew was google eyed over you, and did not tell
your wife about this straight away. You WERE comfortable with being in her presence, you liked the way that she made you feel, even though you say that
you thought nothing of it. Had you mentioned to JK while you were still at this job, JK would likely have asked you not to be near this woman,
and bam those doses of admiration would be gone.
Plus, the fact that you kept having coffee with her, despite others being around, knowing how she felt, this is a subtle way of flirting, a tease to someone
who you perceive is harmless.

If you can recognize these instances, these ones in particular, as ways that you are indeed lying to yourself, then you can address them.
Schoolbus has outlined how to do this .......

Those are pretty much the top self-betraying items, Navy. There are more, sure, but if you find yourself thinking for ONE SECOND along any of these lines, stop talking immediately.

Your very next thought should be, "Stick with the TRUTH." If you can stop yourself the INSTANCE you think about or have the urge along any one of these lines, that's the point when you are lying to yourself.

That's the point when you start lying to others. And the point at which your world begins to get screwed up completely.


As to the other link on Anatomy of an A, you do, do these steps.
Tinges of Dishonesty ..... check
Flirting and teasing ..... check
One of the reasons that I thought that thread would be helpful, is to read about the gestures that lead a person away from protecting their M.

bolded mine ... I'd feel the same way.

So I shouldn't expect a big take if I pass the collection plate later, huh?

Probably a bunch of Methodists anyway...

I took a look at the quizzes, here are my results:


1) Just Friends or Emotional Affair.

I didn't take this quiz as I am not friends with anyone that fit this profile.


2) On-line Friendships or Over the Line

Skipped this one too, I do not 'chat' with people in chat rooms. I often post in political forums but there is no personal stuff going on there. JK is free to see anything I that I do on line.


3) Relationship Vulnerability

Scored at 20, "safe harbor," but my guess is that JKs answers would be very different.


4) Individual Vulnerability

Scored in the safety zone.


5) Social Vulnerability

Got a "smog warning" here, too many close encounters with other peoples affairs to score really well.

My appologies folks, I feel absolutely drained today. Please bear with me, I'll get back to posting here ASAP.

Because I quite literally thought nothing of it. The only reason that it came up at all was in passing, it never occurred to me that this might be an issue or upsetting to JK in any way since she knew all about the coffee get-togethers.


All I can tell you is that the idea that she �had something for me� was very far from the top of my mind and we (the group) got together in the company cafeteria. She actually never indicated any sort of affection for me and the only reason that I even thought that it might be possible is because another female friend once brought it up, mostly as a joke. There was no possibility of me meeting her (or anyone else for that matter) privately for coffee or anything else at that point in my life.

Nevertheless, I understand why it would be upsetting to JK and I haven�t done anything similar since. I avoid all non-professional contacts with any women that are not family or friends of JK.

Hmmmmm, thanks Marshmallow, I think that I need to meditate on this one a bit.

Excellent. This is good, MJK.

Tinges of dishonesty? Agreed, and that's a perfect way to phrase it. I had a reaction that was bad, REALLY BAD, recognized what I had done and changed it immediately.

Flirting and teasing? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. I cannot stress this enough. I used to do that but I do not do that now. There is no room for that in my life. I do not FLIRT with ANYONE nor do I engage in TEASING with ANYONE. That is not me, that is not who I am.

Your last sentence is over the top. Remember, this is not about what you say; it is about what you do. Just tell us what you do.

Who you are is determined by what you do. To be honest, what you were doing just two short weeks ago makes it hard completely impossible to believe that no flirting/teasing/etc. is who you are. But if it's truly what you do, then that makes it possible to believe that it is who you are trying to be.

I stand by what I said Markos. Even an emotional moron like me gets that flirting and teasing would be WAY over the line. And if it was someone else that started flirting and teasing with me I would run screaming for the hills and tell JK about it IMMEDIATELY.

I am scared shirtless about losing JK and I'm not about to let somethng like that destroy everything.

Had a session with Steve Harley yesterday. These are always helpful to me as reminders to focus on the important things (JKs ENs and so forth.)

My focus right now is to provide constant extraordiary care for JK. That includes changing my mindset so that any requests from her are treated in a far more urgent way than what I have been doing.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

Read this thread on EP's and then go back and honestly evaluate where you are in this process.

LINK

A) Blocking all communication with Affair Partners (AP�s) � Done, this was never an issue for me.

B) Accounting for all of your time � I am as transparent as possible. I call JK often. If she calls me and I cannot pick up for some reason I text her to let her know what�s going on.

C) Accounting for all money � JK now handles the money.

D) Spending your leisure time with your wife. � I do this. The only exception is an old man basketball league that I participate in during the winter. JK has never attended but both of our children have come to the gym with me. If it were entirely up to me we would spend even more time together than what we do now.

Recently I had a change to change jobs and work from home along side of JK instead of 40 or so miles away and I jumped at the chance (today is my last day at my current job.)

A) Change cell phone number and give password & account access to your spouse. My cell phone number was changed and JK handles everything.

B) Change email account. My email accounts are open to JKs inspection at any time.

C) Eliminate all social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.) I am only on LinkedIn for business purposes.

D) Take a polygraph. Had one scheduled, JK nixed it. I still want to do it though to clear up any lingering suspicions and give JK peace of mind.

E) Make a copy of my vehicle keys and any other keys my spouse does not have and give to them (i.e., safe deposit boxes, business keys, storage cabinets/lockers, etc.) I think she has a key to my car. I don�t keep anything else locked.

F) List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords my spouse does not have access to. Good idea, I'll do that.

G) Give my spouse access to any banking/financial accounts, business and personal. She has that.

H) Install software that tracks all internet use, giving my spouse administrative access. I�ll discuss this with JK to see if this is something she wants.

I) Install a webcam/security cameras for while at work that my spouse can access. Moot point now, see above.

J) I will contact an attorney that will work on my spouse�s behalf and write a post-nuptial agreement. I did and the attorney refused to do it. He said that he would be exposing himself to malpractice charges if he did. Has anyone else had a different experience?

K) Sell the house/purchase a new one. Can�t right now, I certainly would if we could.

L) Sell any vehicle AP was in and replace them. Done.


This is awesome tst.

A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.

I clearly failed to keep JK safe as specified in A (and I'm working on that) but the rest of these things are really no problem for me at all.