I think that if you or someone you feel connected to in some way is attacked or hurt then it's a perfectly normal reaction to feel anger. Angry outbursts, expecially when directed towards your spouse, are love busters and should be avoided. JK says that the only emotion that I'm comfortable is anger (though I think that this might be hard to reconcile with me being P/A at the same time.)

According to the book I'm reading it's normal for adults in our society (especially men) to be uncomfortable with public emotion with except for anger. Anger seems to be accepted and expected.

I think that in general I'm pretty comfortable with being angry, it's the other ones that I really need to work on. I'm working on both the expression of emotions that I'm aware of and also being able to recognize them when they appear.




It makes sense to me now that I'm associating feelings of resentment with the general category of being 'mad'.



And yet this gets murky. If I'm in my normal, unfocused state I can easily be communicating in a way that makes JK think that I'm trying to hide something. My challenge is to make sure that I am 'present' when we are communcating so that what I'm sending is detailed enought that JK feels like she's getting the whole story. This includes an emotional component that I'm only learning now how to include by default.

MrJK,

A lot of stuff is being thrown at you to read and I know it can be a bit overwhelming at times, but I have one more link for you to look at. It isn't from this site but from that of the late Shirley Glass. The link is to what she called "Quizzes" that indicate vulnerability to an affair. This is what Extraordinary Precautions are really all about. It also refers to another term thrown around here quite often, that of "Boundaries" which though sometimes misused by some to mean things we want to see change in others really has more to do with those things that define us and what we will do or not do under certain circumstances.

So the link: Shirley Glass - Quizzes

Look at them when you get time. While the answers to the questions can indicate a problem, the questions can give you some better ideas as to where your own EPs need to be strongest.

Dr Harley's whole program revolves around one simple premise; that is, just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively as it relates to emotions. The goal of Marriage Builders is to maximize those things that cause a positive emotional response while minimizing those things that cause a negative response to us and what we do or have done in the past.

That is really what often gets lost in many of the conversations around here that tend to focus on specific behavior changes and individual situations. The idea that we can do anything that is truly independent of our spouse and does not matter to our spouse is what needs to be jettisoned. Even things we think will not have any effect actually do concern our spouse.

Something as simple as what we eat for lunch while not necessarily something our spouse has any immediate reaction to or even realizes that she might have any reason to even consider can in the long term affect our relationship. If we eat junk food, gain a lot of weight, damage our heart or other organs in our bodies, in the big picture, these things can negatively affect our spouse.

This is really why Dr Harley came up with his Policy of Joint Agreement. It is to remind us that no matter what we do, there are consequences, some of them even beyond what we can immediately see, that affects the relationship between ourselves and our spouse.

It comes down in the long run to a change in the way we think and not just a change in what we do. By making an effort to only do those things that are best for the relationship and avoiding doing anything that is harmful to it, our actions begin to change, not simply as the result of learning a new action to replace an old one, but because we are striving to put our spouse's feelings ahead of our own selfishness in everything we do.

Ultimately, this is the light-bulb moment when we begin to grasp the fact that once we are married, we are merely a part of something bigger than just ourselves and abandon the notion that we are still independent individuals who can live our life as if what we did had no effect on the status and emotional state of our spouse. The change in our thinking is what leads to the change in our actions and choices rather than merely changing what we do to avoid the negative consequences that affect us when our spouse is unhappy with what we have already done. It becomes then a matter of putting the marriage ahead of everything we do rather than subjugating the marital relationship to our own desires at any given moment in time.

And yes; almost all of my posts are like this...

Mark

What I do is try to never do anything that would make me feel like I need to lie. Prior to the (rather large) exception of the A I�ve been mostly truthful with JK in the sense that I never really did anything that I needed to lie about. The problem at that time was that I wasn�t being honest with her; I was telling her that I was fine when I was far from fine. I wasn�t being honest with my emotions.

Nowadays things are a little different. I still try to maintain my rule of thumb about never doing anything that would make me feel like I need to lie about it. The big difference is that I�m making an effort to be honest with her. Obviously this is a work in progress. First, I need learn to be more honest with myself about what I�m feeling and do a better job of identifying those emotions. Then, I need to do a beter job or expressing those emotions appropriately to JK.

MJK

I can identify with part of your struggle. We are close in age, and I suspect your upbringing taught you as a boy and a man emotions are not to be experienced. I think I read you were a marine. I suspect this environment reinforced that idea. From an early age is suspect you were taught the same thing I was. The 3 P's, Provide (for your family), Protect (your family), Performance (at your job and home). There can be a false sense of security in thinking if we do these three things we are golden, women will swoon around us because we are the macho men.

Times have changed. Expectations on us as men are different. We are expected to understand emotions and be able to navigate them. From your last post I got the sense you understood, like I did, the acceptable emotion for a man is anger, It is linked to performance, (get outta my way etc.). As men we need to establish the link between our head and our hearts, as I have come to understand this is the foundational tool on which a relationship with a woman is built.

It is going to take a lot of work. Not only do you have a relationship to repair, you have yourself to repair, to realign, reconstruct some of those old ideas and attitudes. This is not a quick fix, you will have to relearn new tools from all those years of training.

Perhaps the interim step is to throw yourself on the mercy of the court. Be radically honest with her, be sincere, about your desires, and your fears. Perhaps she needs to know how much you want to reconcile this marriage. That you are working hard. I don't think holding back (Passive / aggressive) is going to serve you well.

Good luck and blessings to you and your family.

Vittoria,

I read through the list. I do not do ANY of these things.

In my previous job I had a female friend (JK knew about her) that I would meet each morning along with two or three other people for coffee. We were friendly. I knew about her husband and kid and she know about JK and kids. Even then I made sure that I never shared anything personal about me or my relationship with JK. I also knew that she probably had a little thing for me but it didn�t make me uncomfortable because I had once heard her announce to our little group that she would never consider having an affair. For my part I had zero interest in her except as a co-worker and to listen to her complain about the bosses.

After I left that company JK and I were talking about her and I told her (thinking nothing of it) that I thought that she probably had a thing for me. It was then that I learned that to JK knowing something like that and not sharing it was completely unacceptable. Since then I�ve done nothing even remotely similar to that, my co-workers at my current job are acquaintances and nothing more. When I meet any of JKs female friends or acquaintances I�m polite but otherwise stay in the background. There is no way that I�ll be going down that path again, not ever.

I like it Mark, informative without being preachy.

I'll get to your link as soon as I can.

I'm curious - if you thought nothing of it, why did you not mention it to JK until after she was gone?

See, if I were JK, my mind would be racing a mile a minute with this knowledge. That you always thought she had something for you and you still met all the time for coffee. Doesn't matter if others were there - in my mind, you would be meeting in this cozy little coffee place with someone who had the hots for you. It's a short drop to meeting her alone for coffee.

I don't know that you need to grab a phone and frantically call JK any time you think a woman has looked at you more than once. But I'm wondering why, if you felt this vibe from her, you didn't remove yourself from these morning coffee klatches?

So you think there is a good kind of anger and a bad kind of anger?

I think there are good kinds of behavior and bad kinds of behavior. But, I don't look at feelings in the same way.

If I get PO b/c someone cut me off in traffic, I don't beat myself up over having the feeling. I acknowledge the feeling. And then let it go. No judgement over the rightness or wrongness of the feeling.



Ok, now you're talking about responses to anger....not feelings of anger.

I think you may be blurring the two.

I don't know if you are religious, but the Bible says, "Be angry, but sin not."

The feeling of anger is OK, but what you do w/ it (your behavior) might not be.

Mr. JK, so far now there are 2 perfect examples, (keep being honest with your posting, this is to your benefit!) of how you are lying to youself,
or maybe a better way to put it is, refusing to recognize actions that are harmful to your M.

I'll do my best to organize some of this, it won't be near as good as the poster who wrote the quote. (this may be the last time I steal quotes, lol)

You can EASILY tell when you are lying to yourself.

1. When what you say or do is meant to cover up or hide something you do not want someone else to know.
The Lowes store incident ..... you tried to hide your gawking of that attractive female when JK came around. (with not much success)
And then denied it, initially.

2. When what you say or do is meant to make yourself appear better than you really are.
The fact that you downplayed the incident in the Lowes store, makes you look better to yourself, and only to yourself.

3. When what you say or do is meant to make yourself appear better than another person.

4. When what you say or do is for the purpose of getting what YOU want - when what you SHOULD be saying or doing would better benefit someone ELSE.
I believe that you wanted to see the Lowes woman's face to see if it matched the hot body, in turn you would get your fix.
You continued on with being in the presence of this woman, (we're in the coffee shop scenario now) who you knew was google eyed over you, and did not tell
your wife about this straight away. You WERE comfortable with being in her presence, you liked the way that she made you feel, even though you say that
you thought nothing of it. Had you mentioned to JK while you were still at this job, JK would likely have asked you not to be near this woman,
and bam those doses of admiration would be gone.
Plus, the fact that you kept having coffee with her, despite others being around, knowing how she felt, this is a subtle way of flirting, a tease to someone
who you perceive is harmless.

If you can recognize these instances, these ones in particular, as ways that you are indeed lying to yourself, then you can address them.
Schoolbus has outlined how to do this .......

Those are pretty much the top self-betraying items, Navy. There are more, sure, but if you find yourself thinking for ONE SECOND along any of these lines, stop talking immediately.

Your very next thought should be, "Stick with the TRUTH." If you can stop yourself the INSTANCE you think about or have the urge along any one of these lines, that's the point when you are lying to yourself.

That's the point when you start lying to others. And the point at which your world begins to get screwed up completely.


As to the other link on Anatomy of an A, you do, do these steps.
Tinges of Dishonesty ..... check
Flirting and teasing ..... check
One of the reasons that I thought that thread would be helpful, is to read about the gestures that lead a person away from protecting their M.

bolded mine ... I'd feel the same way.

So I shouldn't expect a big take if I pass the collection plate later, huh?

Probably a bunch of Methodists anyway...

I took a look at the quizzes, here are my results:


1) Just Friends or Emotional Affair.

I didn't take this quiz as I am not friends with anyone that fit this profile.


2) On-line Friendships or Over the Line

Skipped this one too, I do not 'chat' with people in chat rooms. I often post in political forums but there is no personal stuff going on there. JK is free to see anything I that I do on line.


3) Relationship Vulnerability

Scored at 20, "safe harbor," but my guess is that JKs answers would be very different.


4) Individual Vulnerability

Scored in the safety zone.


5) Social Vulnerability

Got a "smog warning" here, too many close encounters with other peoples affairs to score really well.

My appologies folks, I feel absolutely drained today. Please bear with me, I'll get back to posting here ASAP.

Because I quite literally thought nothing of it. The only reason that it came up at all was in passing, it never occurred to me that this might be an issue or upsetting to JK in any way since she knew all about the coffee get-togethers.


All I can tell you is that the idea that she �had something for me� was very far from the top of my mind and we (the group) got together in the company cafeteria. She actually never indicated any sort of affection for me and the only reason that I even thought that it might be possible is because another female friend once brought it up, mostly as a joke. There was no possibility of me meeting her (or anyone else for that matter) privately for coffee or anything else at that point in my life.

Nevertheless, I understand why it would be upsetting to JK and I haven�t done anything similar since. I avoid all non-professional contacts with any women that are not family or friends of JK.

Hmmmmm, thanks Marshmallow, I think that I need to meditate on this one a bit.

Excellent. This is good, MJK.

Tinges of dishonesty? Agreed, and that's a perfect way to phrase it. I had a reaction that was bad, REALLY BAD, recognized what I had done and changed it immediately.

Flirting and teasing? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. I cannot stress this enough. I used to do that but I do not do that now. There is no room for that in my life. I do not FLIRT with ANYONE nor do I engage in TEASING with ANYONE. That is not me, that is not who I am.

Your last sentence is over the top. Remember, this is not about what you say; it is about what you do. Just tell us what you do.

Who you are is determined by what you do. To be honest, what you were doing just two short weeks ago makes it hard completely impossible to believe that no flirting/teasing/etc. is who you are. But if it's truly what you do, then that makes it possible to believe that it is who you are trying to be.

I stand by what I said Markos. Even an emotional moron like me gets that flirting and teasing would be WAY over the line. And if it was someone else that started flirting and teasing with me I would run screaming for the hills and tell JK about it IMMEDIATELY.

I am scared shirtless about losing JK and I'm not about to let somethng like that destroy everything.

Had a session with Steve Harley yesterday. These are always helpful to me as reminders to focus on the important things (JKs ENs and so forth.)

My focus right now is to provide constant extraordiary care for JK. That includes changing my mindset so that any requests from her are treated in a far more urgent way than what I have been doing.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!