I need some advice. I am under a time crunch to make a major decision. I am engaged to be married in a few weeks. My fianc� is ending a 17 year career to move to my town (in one week) and will be looking for a new career down here. All of the processes are in order, the paperwork has been done, the packers and movers are on their way, and I feel like a freight train is bearing down on me. I can�t decide whether to stay and see what happens after I am run over or whether I need to get out of the way and divert the train.

He is everything I think I want and I�ve never had a better relationship. I find him very attractive, our sex life is great, he is amazingly supportive, and genuinely seems to like being with me. The problems are that I have children from a previous marriage and he will never feel the same about them that I do, he has high expectations for a loving relationship and I feel like I am always letting him down, and I am having feelings for my ex husband that I feel like I want to explore. My fianc� knows I am feeling a lot of stress about all of the upcoming changes and that I wish we could postpone or spread some of them out. In reality we cannot do that without quite a bit of hardship, hurt feelings, financial loss, and just general drama. I do not want to do that to him, to us, to my children, unless I feel more confident that I am on the wrong path. I truly don�t know whether its cold feet or something much larger.

As far as the ex husband goes, we had a 15 year marriage with general ups and downs. Due to a series of stressful circumstances I ended up cheating on him with the man who is now my current fianc�. The affair was exposed to family and friends in a very dramatic tumultuous way and, at the time, I felt I needed to just get away in order to breath and survive. I moved out, we divorced and I continued what felt to be a very healthy and happy relationship with my fianc�. Only in the last six months have I stopped to consider what I did to my family, my kids, my ex and my life in general. In the last few weeks I have discussed some of these feelings with my ex, and while he is open to dating and starting over, he doesn�t want to influence my decision. I know that I wouldn�t be walking into the same relationship but I also know we had several BIG issues that would need to change in order of us to be happy and successful together. The top four are distancing ourselves from his family, changing his career, learning to be more open and honest with each other, and establishing better trust. He is aware of these things and agrees they need to be worked on, but he will not offer any promises at this time. I have no doubt I still love him and putting my family back together would bring all of us great joy.

I realize there is also the option of choosing neither at this time and being alone, but due to circumstances described, that would essentially mean ending things with both men. There is no way to stop time and if I do nothing my fianc� will be here and I will have defaulted to closing the door with my ex. If I choose to explore things with my ex, then I need to find a way to stop the train that is charging toward me and deal with the explosion that will cause. I truly feel both men are great choices and neither path would lead to disaster. I just need to find a way to make a final decision and cope with closing the door on the other man.

I am hoping for some impartial opinions. Maybe you all can help me see things in a different light, or ask a question of me that helps me settle the tornado in my mind.

The odds would be extremely against you in such a marriage. Almost noone can make marriage in this situation work, and the rare few that do still have regrets for the rest of their lives and wish they had not.

If you are not sure, you should not be getting married. That's a general rule that applies to anyone in any situation.

I know you're looking for advice and I do sympathize with your heartache/stress. You've come to a good place and while we may not tell you what you want to hear, there will certainly be a preponderance of insight for you, if you wish to accept it. Meanwhile there is a wealth of information on the general sight which can be helpful to anyone, if you haven't availed yourself to it yet.

You are engaged to a known adulterer. That in itself should give you pause.

optimism

I'm trying to picture how your kids will feel about their new stepdad, with whom mommy was cheating on daddy. OK, I thought about it, I don't think that your fiance will enjoy the dinner table conversations very much.

Combine that with the fact that you have feelings for your X, and I'd say stop the train, as you are heading for a trainwreck.

And then I think some time alone will do you good. I'm thinking at least a year or two.

AGG

Unfortunately, your affair marriage is doomed. Once the fantasy wears off [and it wear off quick!] you will be left with nothing other than a selfish man of low character. Of the affairs that do make it to marriage, 70% of those end in divorce inside of 5 years. [95% of all affairs die within 2 years] The very things that made them possible, deceit, selfishness, thoughtlessness, and dishonesty eventually destroy the relationship.

Just think of the kind of man you are marrying. He is the kind of guy who has no respect for marriage in the first place. He didn't respect your past marriage and he won't respect a marriage with you.

Dr Harley has tried to save these marriages for years and has never figured out a way to do it. They are ALWAYS unhappy, miserable marriages. In his 40 years as a psychologist he said he only knows of ONE such affairage that was happy, but that the man bitterly regretted marrying his adultery partner because of the damage it did to his relationship with his kids.

Harley discusses affairages here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2233

And your kids will figure out that your affair wrecked their family and will hold it against you. You might have them brainwashed for now, but I promise you they will figure out what you did to them eventually. They will resent you and they will resent your adultery partner. You are planning on making them with the enemy? ugh... They won't soon forget that slap in the face.

Tragically, your children are seeing horrible role modeling that will taint them for life. You are teaching them that adultery and lying are acceptable behaviors. They are being taught that families and marriages are disposable only to seek one's "happiness." They are learning that they should seek their "happiness" at

Yes, you are making a horrendous mistake. This will be the biggest mistake of your life and you should back out.

Also, consider the fact that your adultery partner has nothing against adultery. Are you willing to tolerate his affairs after you are married? That is what you are signing up for, after all.

That is what we typically see with affairages on this forum. They experience affairs in their affairage because the participants believe that adultery is acceptable. You have to accept that you are marrying an adulterer.

He should only take you back if you make dramatic personal changes in the way you conduct yourself. You are not a safe or marriage worthy person without making radical changes. The only way he should even consider it is if you take steps to EARN his forgiveness and give him just compensation. Otherwise, you are no prize, but a death of a thousand cuts and a life of hell.

Oh, I had a question. You said that your affair was exposed. Does that mean that your ex is familiar with MB concepts? I had not heard the term "exposure" (in this situation) before MB, so it made me wonder.

opt

I know you're trying to make this out like it is some sort of existentialism crisis but really...

You are an adulterer and you are just repeating your behaviours.

If you want to stop this "train" that you speak of, ask the conductor. Yourself. Until then, quit wrecking people's trust, lives, families. Look at the pain of the betrayed spouses here? Why would you want to do that to your ex again if you really loved him?

Very well put alis. I also get the sense of OP as the kid in the candy store - "so many men, so little time". That's why I suggested the time alone, I think that is by far the best solution, much better than the Monkees' "Here Comes Tomorrow" scenario that is being played out.

AGG

Optimism - It wasn't my ex who exposed, it was my affair partner's wife. She told everyone. But I do believe my ex is familiar with Marriage Builders concepts. We have both referenced this site in the past and have used the books at various times.

Alis - I am the conductor but I don't know how to stop the train without causing destruction and pain for everyone involved. And the only reason I feel that this is a crisis is because I put off doing anything about my feelings and now the time is nearly up. I want to get clear in my head and I want to do it quickly.

Melody - I am more than familiar with your advice and stance on this board. To a certain extent I agree with your philosophies. Having an affair is a devastating, life-altering event, but it is not the only grave mistake made in marriages. I realize that topic is a big focus of this site, but looking at someone as though they wear a big scarlet A is not taking into account the rest of that person. I do have redeeming qualities that exist outside of the affair.

I AM concerned about our affair beginning the relationship and what it tells about both of us. He, more than myself, because he has cheated several times on his then wife. I have been in therapy off and on since this happened several years ago and I do have commitment issues. But simply not committing isn't the answer. I do want to be married and I am willing to do the hard work necessary to be faithful and successful. I may not understand fully how I hurt everyone involved, but I am grasping it more and more as time goes on. I hate what I did and don't want that to be a major defining characteristic of myself. I want to do be better and be better.

FellowMaestro, you have already caused the destruction. You need to stop it by not acting so impulsively. i.e., don't marry this man you are not sure about. Do nothing. Slow down.


FM, honesty really is the best policy. If you want to better your life, you should start practicing it now. What other names have you posted under on this board?

You are right. Your counselor is distracting you.


You are in the right place. But that's a big job. I am not sure you realize how big it is. And when we start talking to you about the requirements, it will be telling if you will balk or not.

Requirement #1 for doing the hard work necessary to be faithful:

Become an honest person.

"I realize that topic is a big focus of this site, but looking at someone as though they wear a big scarlet A is not taking into account the rest of that person. I do have redeeming qualities that exist outside of the affair."

I am sure you have some nice qualities but that does not mean you are redeemed for being an adulterer and a liar who selfishly destroyed 2 marriages and the lives of her children in pursuit of her selfish interests. That doesn't erase who you really are: an adulterer.

If you don't want to be that kind of person, then you have to make amends for what you have done and stop your adultery. You are headed right into a life of hell, and frankly, that is what you deserve at this point. The only sad part is that you are dragging your children into the sewer with you. They deserve better.

Folks here will help you make the right decisions, but you are on the wrong forum if you are seeking support in being an adulterer. If you want to pursue your adultery, you are on the wrong forum.

Markos - so you believe I should be honest with my fiance right now? Without knowing what I want to do, and whether my head is clear?

Melody - When you say stop my adultery what do you mean? I am not married anymore to anyone. And I don't want support in being an adulterer. I want help picking up the pieces and moving forward. The affair is done and I'm trying to make sense after the fog. I truly do want help.

I am having a very difficult time trusting myself to make decisions and to know what is "right."

^^^
You are NOT "out of the fog", you are continuing behaviours of an adulterer.

You are seeking potential romantic companionship with other men when you are in a so-called "committed" relationship. I don't think you seem to realize that you lack this boundary? Do you think it is appropriate for a woman, who is to be married in a few weeks, to discuss her romantic feelings with another man & "chances"??

You're flip flopping -> which one will make YOU happier, at the expense of others.

You are not "recovered" like you think, you are not "out of the fog" as you think. You haven't learned how to behave in a committed relationship yet since your first marriage almost 20 years ago. It's time to start learning!

And you don't learn when you string others along... do it on your own.

I asked you a question, and I believe you should honestly answer it. Perhaps you missed it.

One thing you need is some new definitions. An affair is not done until the affairees never see or talk to each other again, for life. You are engaged to the man you had an affair with (unless I misread what you said), so you are still in contact with him. The affair is still on.

Please answer my question about previous names you might have posted under on this site.

I agree, and I think the OP still sounds largely fogged in. Until the fog lifts, no right decisions can be made.

AGG

Markos - I did miss your question. I made one post a few weeks ago under another name but for the life of me, could not remember it today. It was about the same general topic but all the responses came across as too harsh and I retreated. I decided to post again and really listen to what everyone had to say.

I didn't realize that "once an affair, always an affair." Under that definition, then I am still involved in an affair.

Alis - You are right. I don't think I realized I was crossing any boundary by exploring my feelings before sharing them with everyone involved. I saw it almost as if I were thinking it out in my head, and I certainly don't say everything I think. Thank you for pointing this out because I see now if the situation were reversed, I would not want my fiance "talking out his feelings" with a potential love interest without telling me about them. Ugh. I didn't see or think of this before.

What is it about a known serial cheater that appeals to you?

You will continue to be an adulterer so long as you remain in a relationship with your affair partner. Your cold feet at this time is your innate knowledge that what you are doing is wrong.

Listen to your smarter side for a change, and halt this relationship. You don't have to make any other decision right now other than to end your adultery.

I do not think you are being honest when you say you cannot remember. Please go look around and find your other thread.

Also, you said you've been around here longer than that, so how many other names have you posted under?

Force yourself to be radically honest.

"A time crunch" is no reason to marry in haste.
You are making a very hasty decision.
And, you know it.


"He" is a known adulterer and a liar and a cheat and an interloper.
Perhaps you might want to rethink things?


One major reason (among other reasons) affair marriages are doomed is the level of sacrifice each adulterer makes is never equal.
Hence, the marriage begins with the building blocks for future resentments.
Re-think.


My, my, my.
You have "feelings" that need to be explored?
Really?
Isn't that what caused you to become an adulteress?
How about this .... you explore your values?
Life is not all it should be if you allow you ever-changing "feelings" to be solely what guides you on your journey.


You are on the wrong path.
You don't know what the hell you are doing.
Sorry.
Truth.


You mean, you had a typical, average marriage.


You cheated because you allowed OM to inappropriately meet intimate emotional needs.
AKA adultery.


Two adulterers are never healthy.
They both bring inappropriate coping mechanisms to the relationship.
You had normal marital "stress" so your solution was to commit adultery.
You bring the exact same skill set to your current "engagement".


GOOD FOR YOU !!!!
Best thing you've said thus far.




You still love him.
Do not get married to your adultery partner!
Do NOT !!!


Tell OM today that you are calling off the marriage.
You are breaking up with him.
You want no further contact with him.
Make a clean break today.
Easy? Of course not.
The right thing to do?
Without a doubt.


No problem-o.


Shame on you for hurting this woman.
You became the zombie in her life.
You sucked the life & hope out of her marriage.
Shame on you.
No excuse.
None.
Do not make an effort to explain.
Accept the shame so you know you really have returned from the living dead.


Really?



Hey, life is painful and difficult.
So what?
Send OM back on his knees to his wife.


So what?
You zombied another woman's marriage.
You taught your children how to lie/cheat/run away.


What a catch!
If you "keep him" you deserve every damn thing you get.



No you don't.
You have normal/average crappy boundary issues.
You ARE teachable, are you not?



Break it off with OM.
Do it NOW before the moving truck arrives.

More later.

You may be able to redeem yourself .... but you must be able to "take the hits" when told the truth.

You are an adulteress.
You have crappy marriage skills.
You need marriage builders skills.
You are possibly teachable.

What say you?

As long as contact continues.

We have people come to this forum every day in trauma, saying that they found out their spouse was in an affair two years ago, and the affair is over but they haven't healed yet. Then we start asking for information, and we find out the spouse is still working with the affair partner. Well, there you go -- they can't heal, because even though some might not call it an "affair," the affair is still on as long as they are in contact. Every time they see each other, it is a renewal.

If you read the Basic Concepts (10 concepts) and Dr. Harley's section on surviving infidelity (29 articles), you will learn how an affair is an addiction. There is only one way to break an addiction: cold turkey, complete elimination of the addicting substance. Dr. Harley says it is as bad as a heroin addiction. Just as an alcoholic can't go by a bar and look at the drinks, or keep alcohol in their home, someone who had an affair can't continue to see the affair partner. Every time they do it is a "hit," and the addiction is sustained.

The reason you don't trust yourself to make right decisions right now (good call, by the way!) is that you have gotten yourself into the equivalent of a heroin addiction. You need to cut contact and withdraw, cold turkey, and give your mind time to clear.

Maestro, Pepperband is posting to you.

She's the best. Absolutely the best for the advice you need to hear to change your life to lead to lasting happiness.

Listen to her.

Chapter 1

I was walking down the street - there was a big hole in the sidewalk - I fell in. It wasn't my fault, and it took me a long time to get out of it.

Chapter 2

I was walking down the street - there was a big hole in the sidewalk - I tried to avoid it but I fell in. It wasn't my fault. It took me a long time to get out of it.

Chapter 3

I was walking down the street - I saw the big hole in the sidewalk, but I fell in it anyway. It was my fault, but I knew how to get out of it quickly by now.

Chapter 4

I was walking down the street. I saw the big hole in the sidewalk. I carefully walked around it.

Chapter 5

I chose a different street.

Markos - I never posted here in the past when referencing this site. I don't typically post on message boards at all, much less about something so personal. And I honestly cannot remember the name I used a couple weeks ago.

When you compare affairs (your mistake) to other mistakes, you are trying to make yourself look better by minimizing your mistake.

This prevents you from taking real ownership of your mistake.

Other mistakes people make in marriage are irrelevant. This is yours. This is the one you have to deal with. It has nothing to do with a Scarlet A, and everything to do with objectively appraising the situation you are in so that you can deal with it rationally.

If you minimize your mistake, you won't give it the appropriate attention it deserves. Don't deflect when you are confronted on your mistakes. Face them bravely, unflinchingly, and go do what needs to be done.

I am sure you have many redeeming qualities. Everybody does. Everybody has value. But you can increase your value by overcoming character flaws. One character flaw you are demonstrating is minimizing your mistakes.

I can think of two great reasons to go look for it:

1) it'll help you practice honesty. A lot of liars make themselves forget things so that they can later "honestly" say they don't know. Go make yourself remember.

2) you probably reacted negatively to the advice you received. You probably did not like the negative things you felt and you quickly closed the window and walked off and tried to forget everything. In short, you ran away. If you want to make any improvement in life, you are going to have to stop running away from things you do not want to hear. If you will repeatedly expose yourself to those messages, you will eventually become desensitized: your negative emotional reaction will subside, and you can think logically about what you are seeing and get the value out of what was posted to you. Practice now: go expose yourself to whatever was said to you last time. Go read it, even though you don't want to. Burying your head in the sand and running away from your problems will get you nowhere in life.

FM,

This is so sad. Reread your original post & honestly think about how many lives have been affected by your infidelity.

Read your responses and let the questions & answers by the responders soak in.

STOP!! Your inability to be honest, to be faithful, to think of anyone but yourself is destroying lives!

What Marriage Builders books do you have? What Love Busters did you and your ex commit in your previous marriage?

This alone will cause your marriage to your adultery partner to fail.
I can "read" your expectations in your posts.
You write this about OM
Then, you write this:


You ALREADY KNOW that your expectations of "milk & honey" with OM will fail.

FellowMaestro,

Please, please listen to me. You are about to make a HUGE mistake. I posted here last year as NewCreation2011. I couldn't recall my password to save my life so I had to create a new one to talk to you today.

PLEASE search my old user name and read my thread about what you get when you marry your affair partner.

Everyone else if you know how to link my old thread in your post so she can see it easily please do that for me. I do not know how.

I have lurked here for ages trying to learn and grow and make some sense of my shattered life. I did not post further after my first attempts last year because my presence was upsetting to many of the BS's here and that is not okay. I am breaking my silence today because your story made me feel like maybe for once my mess could be helpful to someone else. If you heed any of my words at all you will save yourself, your child, your ex, your OM/fiance, both of your BS's, all of your respective family and friends a world of pain for years to come.

Please find and read my thread. I will try to hang around to answer any questions I can.

NewCreation2012

So, what is it like?
Do you *think* you might be happy if you married the person you committed adultery with?
You know, the other adulterer?
It might look like this.
Written by NewCreation on 02/17/2011

LINK to original thread.

Weird.
We cross posted as I was quoting you !!!!

I think you know that you shouldn't get married.

You are using the following excuses to do it anyway:
1) Money
If you get married, you will spend the money. There will be major issues as people have mentioned, and you will get divorced.
SO then you have to spend more money on that.

2) Guilt
I am not sure if you have considered this, but I think you are using guilt as a reason to get married. What I mean is "Yes, I cheated on my husband with this guy, but LOOK! I am marrying him so ot was TRUE LOVE TM so it is okay."

3) Fear of looking bad to family

4) Don't want to upset affair partner/new husband.


Here is why you shouldn't get married:
1) You are basically coming here and looking for support not to get married. You feel you ahve to get married but don't really want to. We have heard many a story here on MB about people that didn't not feel 99% certain about getting married and then later regretted it. Don't do it.

2) You are building you marriage on a foundation of deception. Statistics show us that second marriages based on affairs don't last. They don't have the proper foundation.

3) You don't even know if this new guy can meet all of your ENs...I can see already that you don't think he can. Sure, in the middle of the affair he met some and your exHusband met some and that was grand. But the grass over the new guy fence isn't looking so green.


Why SHOULD You get married?
1) uh...ummm...not sure. You didn't really say why you want to.


So if you don't get married there will be tears and drama and loss of money...and you will just tell your family that you realized that this was no way to start a marriage and that you made a mistake getting involved with him at all. Peace and calm will return to you and your kids instead of the constant tension you and they would be feeling. Most likely your new guy can get his old job back.

Thank you so much Pepperband for getting my post here for FellowMaestro. I hope she at least reads it.

I literally feel my heart pounding in my chest and am fighting tears, its like I am watching a horrific car accident and I can't stop it!

FM, YOU can stop this. I am begging you to at least talk to me. I am real. My story is 100% real. You can learn from my mistakes. There are awesome stories of recovery on this board. Pepperband is one of them. You could still possibly restore your marriage. Even if your ex is not willing to reconcile with you, you can become the person you need to be and stop this madness. You will be happier in the long run. I promise.

NC12

Another Classic:

He'll be different with you, You're special

Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

Sweetie, you've done the very best thing you could possibly do.
You posted the ugly truth with courageous honesty.
This is a step of your own redemption!
You can only warn her.
And if that fails, wait for the bodies to surface after she ignores your warning.

But, you are brave now.

See how it goes?

Thank you.

NewCreation2012, please check your email.

x2.

Your children have been through the trauma of D and losing their family.

If you know that the stats are against you regarding an affairage...
If you are having feelings for another man other than your fiance and doubts about this relationship...

WHY would you DARE to consider dragging your children into another mess?

Really? Do you not understand at all how painful divorce is for children and how much they need security and stability?

No, of course not. It's all about me, me and more me.

Here's an idea...

Stay single and focus on your children until you get yourself straightened out.

Checked and responded.

Thank you, NewCreation2012!

A series of stressful circumstances made you become a liar, sneak, and a cheat?

Your fiancee is the person who was ok with you being a liar, sneak and a cheat... and helped you to rip your family apart.

I think you already know what the right thing to do would be.

The question is whether you have the character to make the right choice and turn your life around.

I think the odds are about 50/50 she will have the character.

This sounds a lot like this story here

The advice is the same.

T/J new Creation I just wanted to tell you how much of an impact your first post had.. I have shared it with a few ppl I know. I am SO glad you posted what you did .. it paints the picture PERFECTLY! You are a VERY strong woman .. and for that I commend you for your efforts. I wish and pray for you to find happiness.

May god give you peace and joy in your life.
/end T/J

MNG

To the OP - PLEASE .. Listen to the good people here. YOu will regret this for the rest of your life if you marry your AP. At the very least ... hold off for a while longer. But you KNOW the righ thing to do is end it with your soon to be husband .. make peace within yourself and rekindle your original marriage after you have healed and tended to everyones wounds .. including your own.

GOD would Bless your original marriage. I even think there is a passage that tells of this but it evades me right now. If i Find it I will post it.

MNG

It is the same person. I knew her post rang a bell. She DID post before and deleted her post when she didn't like the advice.

Reposting, now that the original thread has been found:



I can think of two great reasons to go look for it:

1) it'll help you practice honesty. A lot of liars make themselves forget things so that they can later "honestly" say they don't know. Go make yourself remember.

2) you probably reacted negatively to the advice you received. You probably did not like the negative things you felt and you quickly closed the window and walked off and tried to forget everything. In short, you ran away. If you want to make any improvement in life, you are going to have to stop running away from things you do not want to hear. If you will repeatedly expose yourself to those messages, you will eventually become desensitized: your negative emotional reaction will subside, and you can think logically about what you are seeing and get the value out of what was posted to you. Practice now: go expose yourself to whatever was said to you last time. Go read it, even though you don't want to. Burying your head in the sand and running away from your problems will get you nowhere in life.

Do your kids know this BF is really the OM that you cheated with while married to their dad/BH?

FM,

I will be leaving work in an hour or so and temporarily do not have internet access at home. I was really hoping you would talk to me.

I will be praying for you to make a good decision this weekend and if you don't check back in before I leave today I will check in on this thread on Monday.

I have not posted here in a year FM and it is a big deal for me to do it now. Your situation is that serious.

If you do not plan to respond again and are just lurking reading the rest of the responses then please hear this...

There is no amount of discomfort that you could possibly experience by cancelling this wedding and ending this ill-gotten relationship that will compare to what you are headed for if you don't.

You are ALREADY in conflict. It will only get worse. You came here because deep inside you know you are on the wrong path. Listen to that voice no matter how small it is!

Doing what is right is rarely easy but it is ALWAYS worth it.

NC12

Marry your affair partner?
It can work, my cheating wifes grandparents were from an affair. they stayed married for more than 50 years (although they continued to have affairs, according to their son).

It depends on what type of marriage you want; if you want a marriage with affairs, marry the sorry sack of s**t.

If you want a loving, HEALTHY marriage (yes, affairs are unhealthy), then learn how to love using MB concepts.

MB Forum talks about "wayward fog," it sounds like you still have a fog around you. What a waste of your life, after all this time, to still be involved with this POS.

Hopefully your kids will have a better life than what you are teaching them to live

So, pre-MB, you had a 'typical' marriage, with ups and downs and some stress. You can't blame that for your affair - you also had the option of discussing your issues with your husband. You chose not to do so because some guy was flirting with you and you allowed him to distract you from your priority.

Here's the good news: your ex is interested in recovering your marriage. My suggestion to you would be to end the relationship with your affair partner and try to work toward reconciliation with your ex. He is being hesitant, and who can blame him? Don't make decisions because you think you've 'gone too far' or because you think your security is more assured with OM. If you are having doubts about divorcing your ex, STOP what you're doing and re-evaluate. You still have time.

To all that have responded, esp newcreation and pepper...

I'm not ignoring you or running away (again). I have read everything and you'll be happy to know you've begun to get thru to me. I am amazed the impact that strangers can have, but this is exactly the type of honesty and insight I was looking for. It's a little hard to take in all at once and it has brought me to tears more than once this afternoon. I even went to a local church and took a minute to kneel and pray for help, guidance, and forgiveness. Very emotional and difficult.

I will be having a more honest conversation with OM tonight. I am scared beyond belief but there is also an underlying calm with that decision. I'm trying not to think too far ahead and just stick with what needs to happen next. Any further than that and I get sick and scared.

Thank you all so much for attempting to help someone like me. I sincerely mean that. I promise to read and re-read all the advice here. I also promise to respond to your questions and update you on my progress and thoughts. Right now I have some processing to do, but I will be back. Hopefully tomorrow.

This response worries me. This sort of post typically indicates that the poster (you) doesn't like what they're hearing, but still wants to be polite. Please prove me wrong.

I just wanted to say that reading your words brought tears to my eyes. Partly due to wishing my wxw would have similar thoughts. The other part is the proof that God does work and he seems to be working on you.

Deep down i believe you not only know what you should do but what you must do. I dont remember reading about kids, but if you have them, you know whats best for them. Even if you dont, reconciling with your husband is what God want. Paul, in I Corinthians 7:11, said if a woman leaves her husband, she is to remain single or be reconciled with her husband.

Its obvious, by your words that there's something eating away at you. Its obvious by your repeated appearances that it wont let you find peace. That peace will only come when you follow God.

I will keep you in my prayers.

What do hope to accomplish with this talk?

Again I ask do your children know that you had an affair with this OM that you want to be their step dad?

No, both men are not great choices. Only one is. You are making a critical decision in your life right now that will have some soul shattering ramifications if you make the wrong decision. You know who the better man is, or else you wouldn't be here asking for advice. You already know the right decision, or you wouldn't be here. In other words, if you were 100% sure of what you are doing, you wouldn't be here at all.

But here you are, and that's very telling. There is something deep down inside of you telling you that you have screwed up, have a potential opportunity to fix this mess you created, but are too scared to take the steps necessary to do the right thing. By the right thing, I don't mean to God, family, or simply righteousness, but to yourself.

You obviously have a lot remorse for what you have done, and it would appear you have an XH that is willing to work with you to repair what YOU have broken. But, now you have your affair partner (who played a HUGE part in busting up your marriage) waiting in the wings. A man that busted up one family is not above busting up two when he gets tired of you. He's already proven just what kind of "man" he is. And so has your XH. Ask yourself this; which one of the two really has more character.

I think you already know the answer to this because otherwise, you wouldn't be here.

You've got one shot at making this right. Don't screw it up. If you do, you will live one long life of regret. Of this I can assure you.

One day my wife and I spoke to Steve Harley on the phone early in the morning. Later that day she asked what I thought. I told her there was a lot to digest. I drove out by myself for lunch that day, thinking I had a lot to digest. Texted my wife at some point saying I was going out to lunch to mull all this over and digest it. Over and over again I repeated that this was a lot to digest.

Finally I realized I wasn't doing anything. I was just lying to myself that I was "working on it" or "digesting" it. That was apparently what I said when I did nothing. So I decided to just start doing what Steve Harley said, and it worked.

As long as contact continues, the affair continues. Contact is the affair. Every time you see him or talk to him, that is a hit of what is affecting you.

FM, has your ex-husband ever posted here?

Such a great thread. If you could turn this (your life, your former marriage, your family) around...wow, what a success story that could be.

"honest conversation with OM"....is that even possible???

Beware the honey that drips from the adulterers lips...contact with OM is sure to confuse you more. Tomorrow...when you come back to this thread I predict lots of fog and confusion after a fresh "hit" of OM.

Clarity can only be found in "NO CONTACT". Take one step and the rest will surely follow. The courage is in the doing. Just DUMP OM already and THEN figure out the rest.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - He's a big boy and as a serial cheater he knows the game well. He doesn't need the decency of a meeting or "closure contact" for you to just end it with him. He'll understand but they always try to draw you back in for just one more night. Like the Jane's Addiction song, Jane Say's ..."I'm gonna kick tomorrow". btw....If you marry him he'll just put up a vacancy sign on the mistress position. It's what he does.

If you want to take control of your life, better make this decision for yourself. Not talk it over with OM-homewrecker.

Listen to Dr Harley:


Write a brief, NON LOVING, factual letter of NO CONTACT to OM.
Send it to OM and send a copy to your ex-H.

Post your draft of the NC letter on this thread so we can make sure you are doing it right.

We will be glad to guide you towards a healthy, non-adultery life style, only if you can follow instructions.

We will encourage you only as long as you follow the MB path.

The moment you mis-step, we will post about your error.

An "honest talk" to OM is not the right step.

A NC letter is the correct step.

Here is a template:

OM (no endearments)

Our adultery was a grave error in judgment.
We were selfish. We caused others heartbreak and pain.
I am finally ready to do the right thing.
This adulterous affair is over.
I never want to communicate with you ever again.
I am taking steps towards reconciliation with (husband).
I still love (husband).
Respect my wishes, and never contact me again.

(your name)

OK?

Let's see your NC letter in your next post.

FM, I have been watching and waiting hopeful that you would come back and inform us of how you are doing and that you have made the right decision and called off your impending marriage to your affair partner.

It is not too late to stop this, right up until the very moment you are pronounced married at the ceremony. If the courage finally comes to you as you are walking down the aisle it is not too late to turn around and leave!!

Do not concern yourself with what OM will do. He can find another job. He will survive and move on, I promise.

Concern yourself with leading a good and honorable life from this day forward. You can do it. You said you wanted to do that in your opening post.

If you and your xBH decide to work out your marriage the people here will be behind you and support and guide you. There are amazing people here!!! If you stop this madness yet are not able to reconcile with your xBH the people here will still help you as long as you are committed to a path of excellence in cleaning up your life.

You will not however be able to ask for help here once you marry your affair partner. When he cheats on you, and trust me, he will, you can not come here as a betrayed wife for support and understanding. It does not matter how sorry you are, how changed you are, they will not be able to help you. You will be alone, miserable, with the gut wrenching knowledge that you did it to yourself. You do not want to be there. I can assure you that you do not want to be in that ugly place!!

You can put the title MRS. in front of your name. It is not going to change the fact that you are the homewrecking other woman. You will carry that label for as long as you stay with your affair partner. Does your OM have children? Do they not hate you? Do you think for one second that this will eventually blow over? Do you think for one second that you will ever be a good and healthy relationship in their lives? You won't! You can't! I know this first hand. I TRIED! I am a changed person inside and out but my past actions stand. They can not be changed or erased and the damage they did is not going to disappear. There is no way to make it work.

What about your son? He is young now right? What do you think is going to happen when he hits his teen years and begins to comprehend who his step-daddy is and what the two of you did to his father (who sounds like a decent man) and to his life? Do you really think you can sweep it under the rug?? Do you really want to sweep it under the rug so that he becomes an adult with a skewed moral compass?

FM, don't let your life end up being nothing more than a tragic warning to others of what not to do...

You won't like it. I don't.
NC12

I anticipate some variation of the following ....

"I still have feelings for (insert OM and/or ExH).
It's too hard.
You don't understand how much this hurt me.
I don't want to cause more pain/hurt.
Too much has happened.
What if it does not work out with (insert OM and or ExH).
I have to let OM down gently.
I'm confused.
I'm conflicted.
I'm not sure I can (insert any MB based plan of action)."


I can only wonder how it feels to be so lost.
And resist using both the map and the compass.

And, the ever-ready

"What if it does not work?"

Yes Pep, I expect about the same. I just feel the need to try again to reach her in case she is still lurking. You know all of those mixed up feelings you mentioned, they are very real to her. It is sad and scary. I had just hoped that I could give her one tiny moment of clarity on which to build. God can do HUGE things with tiny seeds. It's worth my time to lay it out there...

If she doesn't see it, maybe there is another lurker who will.

NC12

P.S. To be clear, I don't mean her feelings are right or justified, just that to her they are real.