Well I guess I should start off by saying I'm new here.

I've been reading dribs and drabs here and there and this site has helped me quite a bit.

Anyway, on to my story:

So my wife of nearly seven years cheated on me recently. Dec 16th, 2011 to be precise. I am at a loss because of the events leading up to the cheating.

Fri. 16th Dec - She was at a party that night. What kills me is that I went down to that party that night and begged and pleaded with her to come home. I began to have a serious panic attack. She told me that she was fine and that she was just going to have a few drinks and crash at the party which was at her best friends house. She told me she loved me and all that jazz. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with that but that night I just felt something was really amiss. I was in such bad shape I could barely drive away. I had to crash at a friends house who lived a block away.

Sat. 17th Dec - The next morning I went home and had a nap. My wife came home and I asked her about the night. She was very nonchalant about the whole thing and acted as if nothing happened. However in text messages with her later that day she was very combative (uncharacteristically so) about her spending the night and not being able to party (which is completely tomfoolery, I usually let her do all that sort of stuff).

I really got the heebie-jeebies about the whole thing. That night I went through her purse and her digital camera because I couldn't sleep. I found pictures that were alarming, but rather innocent. So I checked her cell phone. She had deleted all her text messages which really, really set off all my alarm bells.

Sun. 18th, Dec - She decided to go to Karaoke at a local bar. I asked her why she didn't invite me. She said I could go, so I hatched a plan. The plan was to invite a friend so that I could move about the bar as much as I wanted to arousing the least amount of suspicion as to what I was doing and how much alcohol I was providing my wife. The idea is that the friend would also provide some moral support if things turned ugly. Turns out, none of my friends could make it, given that it was a Sunday night. So I had to improvise. I spent my last $30 to my name providing my wife and her friends with drinks.

At the end of the night I drove her friends home and took my wife home. After I dropped off her friends my wife was behaving a little odd. Firstly I noticed that she opted to stay in the backseat of the car behind me. Secondly, I noticed that she was texting quite heavily on her cell phone. The texting isn't that abnormal for her right after a night with friends, but something was different. Thirdly, the conversation got a little bit odd, particularly the subject matter of her wedding ring and the events leading up to the party she went to.

So I did the usual ablutions before going to bed. I laid there, I felt like I was going to have another panic attack but I held it together. I waited and waited until I heard my wife snoring (Haha, yes women snore!). I then quietly got out of bed and sneaked my way over to her side of the bed where her cell phone rests. She was clutching it in her hands. I managed to slide it out and check the contents. In it I found text messages to the kid (Yes, KID... 21 years old) that she had slept with on the 16th.

I found all kinds of hurtful things in there and he even went so far as to send her a picture of his penis after she requested several times for one.

The texts go as follows:

WW: Hahaha we're at the quinny! Wish you were here!! Just wanna say your hot! Hahaha drunk texting is the best! Lol
OM: Haha I wish I was there
WW: It's packed!!!! Good times!!! You have to come next time! I need eye candy
OM: Haha ill see what I can do lol
WW: You better....
WW: You started something that's hard to stop.... Hahaha sorry!!!
OM: What did I start
WW: Oh you know.... Lol seriously! God I'm evil! I hope We 're cool?
OM: Yeah we are
WW: You're F***ing hot! I sometimes think it was all a dream! Lol
OM: Haha I'm not that hot common
WW: Seriously why don't you think that way? You are!!! Don't be like that!!!
OM: Lol
WW: Send me a picture?
OM: Of
WW: You know... I promise i wont show anyone!
WW: Come on.... Pretty please!....
OM: well you might lol
WW: I might what?
WW: ?
WW: Am i annoying you?
WW: I'm waiting... lol
OM: Lol no I was munchin out lol
OM: And you mioght get caught with it on your phone
WW: I won't! Please just do it I'm a pro at hiding [censored]! I need to see it!
WW: Yeah i know sounds bad...
OM: *Insert photo of penis*
WW: Omg! You just made my night! I'll be dreaming of you tonight! Lol
OM: Your welcome
OM: No more
WW: K
WW: Hahaha i love it
WW: It's all good I'm keeping that pic
OM: Lol
WW: Whatcha doing?
OM: Juzt going to pAss out here
WW: Good night
OM: G-night


After backing up all of this I took the picture and printed it out. On it I scrawled in black felt:

"You need to come clean with me and stop lying.

Love YOUR HUSBAND NotMyUserName"

Then I taped it to the bathroom mirror.

Then I got in my car, drove to a friends house. Around 6:00 AM after not being able to sleep I called my wife on her cell. I told her to go look in the bathroom then I hung up.

Unbeknownst to me I pretty much played this as best I could and surprisingly close to the suggestions on this site.

I left the house for several days, but I made sure that she was exposed. I made sure her Mother and Step Father knew, her brother and sister-in-law. I made sure that her best friend knew that I knew that she knew. I pretty much made it very clear to all the people important in our lives what had transpired (save the really slimy details).

She wasn't going to tell me at all. She told me when I confronted her that she wasn't going to tell me until after New Years, maybe even never.

What is worse is that I found out later after confronting her about the whole thing was that she was also doing cocaine at the party. She tried to TT/Gas Light me on the whole subject, but I had enough proof to get the whole story.

We have decided to get back together. I am worried though that she might have taken things underground. I feel like this just might be me being irrational, but how does one know for sure?

I have asked her for no contact. She has slipped up slightly as she was creeping on this kids new girlfriend on Facebook which I consider contact.

I have put into place some precautions such as a keylogger on her P.C. etc...

Any pointers?


P.S. this whole situation kind of has a silver lining. Had I not found out, and my wife would have continued her behaviour leading up to Christmas I would have committed suicide. This whole thing has caused me to really examine how I have been living (or not living) my own life.

Hang tight till the vets come along. My phone is about to die, too, drat. So sorry, man.

Did you gain support from expsure trgets? What are they asking of your wife? What are you asking her to do?

How about exxposure on OMs side? There's no way that cocky loser will stick around to take much heat. Run him off.

Have you read the exposure 101 thread?

Hello and welcome to the best place to be in your circumstances.


Did you expose also to OM side (his parents etc)? If not, you should do that immediately.

What were the conditions (that you presented to your WW) to continue the marriage?

You are not irrational, of course you should snoop. I think you did not get the full truth. These texts above made me thinking that it was not her first time. Consider polygraph as one condition.

To be honest, you two should get rid of the FB. Create common account or something.

How old are you, do you have kids?

I haven't really gotten much support. I know the In-laws are dissatisfied with my wife, but they are the type to brush things under the carpet. I have been a very devout son-in-law to them which makes it that much more agitating.

I have read the exposure 101 thread. Sadly, the OM is really just a kid who showed my wife some affection and gave her some cocaine. He has a parent in our town. I am unsure as to the address/phone of the OM's parent.


Sorry, I should have posted this info:

BH - 30
WW - 29
No kids, unless you consider a cat a kid.

I want to get rid of all that crap, but most importantly the cell phones as that seemed to be one of the ways she contacted the OM. I feel cell phones are a crazy hazard for both myself and already proven my WW.

I see a huge problem with her workplace. She has been a waitress at the same restaurant for 14 years or so where she works with many young people who:

a.) Are not married
b.) Are teenaged to young adults
c.) Party a lot (and all the accoutrements that go with that)
d.) Has a lot of free time

All of this constitutes what I consider bad influences for someone of our age.

I have asked my wife to:

1.) Not lie anymore. Period. End of story.
2.) No contact with OM - EVER.
3.) Spend more time with me.
4.) Discuss problems with me in our marriage.
5.) No more drugs.

I am having a hard time with the drugs, she seems to be smoking marijuana quite regularly which is something I don't approve of because she often drives while under the influence, becomes quite lazy and is very off-putting. Before we were married she didn't smoke much in the way of marijuana (if at all).

I live in a fairly remote area so getting a polygraph is pretty much out of the question. The thing is, she thinks she a pro at hiding things, but she really is bad at covering her tracks and also she is a terrible liar. So easy to detect.

Do you have goals of starting a family?

Is this really who you want to be the mother of your children? Almost 30, doing cocaine, cheating, partying harder than most do in their late teens/early 20's? Driving under the influence?

How long have you been married?

Up until recently, yes. I have always wanted children. I have wanted to have children for a very long time - with my wife.

She tells me this was her first time doing cocaine, and her last.

Where I come from in the world smoking marijuana is socially acceptable but still illegal.

We have been married almost seven years. Our seven year anniversary will be June 25th.

Hey, I am originally from Vancouver British Columbia so believe me, I'm not here to go on about the evils of pot, but I think, as a minimum, you will need to put off any idea of starting your family for quite some time (ie. ESTABLISHED recovery and not just the start). I only say that as a mother myself.

She MUST quit her job at a minimum. This cannot be an option for her.

I am on Vancouver Island.

I am working on that. Last time I pushed her comfort level was disastrous to say the least.

Her comfort level is to act like a 17 year old single girl and live life partying.

Here is where you need to decide what you are willing to live with in your marriage.

Are you willing to live with her continuing life as a single party girl?

Or, are you willing to tell her that you have boundaries, that she MUST follow EPs (extraordinary precautions) including leaving her job, OR ELSE SHE WILL LOSE YOU.

Right now, you seem to think you can tell her not to behave like a party girl and eventually she will become an honest loyal wife/mother. That's not going to happen until you take a stand and DEMAND she removes herself from the environment that encourages this behaviour.

I'm afraid if she continues to work in this environment then truly, you will always be at risk of repeat behaviour.

Right now, if you do not define your boundaries, she will know that she can do whatever the hell she wants and you will always take her back.

If she cannot leave her job then she does not respect your marriage or you as a husband. And you will be wasting the best years of your life dealing with this pain over and over. You are only 30 - you need to decide what kind of marriage you really want in life.

I am well aware of her comfort zone... I am doing my best, trust me on this one.

It looks like I am just going to have to smite her with the proverbial hammer.

She has been rather agreeable as of late. I know that I will have to impose more, which won't go over well.

I know I am strong enough to drop the hammer.

As she is now, she isn't wife material. She would need to make and KEEP making major changes before you should even consider staying with her. What you just said about imposing shows that you need to understand and internalize the difference between control and boundaries.

Control: "You must do what I say, or else."

Boundary: "My life is not going to include adultery, drug use, illegal activity, etc. If you choose those things, you are choosing to no longer be a part of my life. It's entirely up to you which you decide."

Control tries to make other people do what you want.

Boundaries recognize that you can only control yourself, and what influences you allow in your life.

Neak is on the same path I was about to take.

You cannot have any idea (because you haven't been through it) of the length and difficulty of the struggle you will be undertaking to convince an otherwise-unremorseful WW to truly come back to your marriage. Your condition is made that much worse by her drug addictions (First time cocaine? AYFKM?) and dismissive attitude toward her betrayal. Additional factors in your case working against your succeeding is the tepid support from her family, and what comes across in your story of your own non-substantial psychological makeup.

Given the orientation of her attitude, the absence of children (and now the delay which would be necessary to trust her with anything as precious as your offspring), your relatively young age and length of marriage, you should seriously think of JUST GETTING OUT!

She ain't "marital prime" marterial, dude.

I'm sorry you are having problems.


Dr. Harley encourages spouses of addicts to join Al-Anon (if your wife is using cocaine she is a drug addict and she sounds like an alcoholic): http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Surviving An Affair, by Dr. Harley lists three types of affairs: one night stands, semi-emotional attachments and the soulmate affairs.It sounds like your wife likes to have one night stands, while drunk and high.

Personally, I would be more concerned about the drug and alcohol use before the affairs. I assume she probably bounces checks, cant hold down a job...and many other traits addicts show. If not, her addictions will eventually control her and she WILL hit rock bottom.

Any additional issues, such as substance abuse, place a big red X over Plan A. Plan A is worse than useless for an abuser - it will actually harden them in their downhill path.

You should make a plan of what you would need for her to do in order for you to consider staying with her. That would need to include rehab and an accountability program, in addition to all the adultery-related items like No Contact and Extraordinary Precautions.

If she's not willing to do EVERYTHING, and keep doing it, you have her move out and go to Plan B.

@ Neak. Yeah, first time. Her best friend and the guy she slept with enticed her into it. No I am not [censored] kidding you... as you would put it.

I am not exactly enthused with her best friend. We are cordial at best right now.

I am not going to lie, I have use drugs recreationally, but I left that all behind in my early twenties. At worst I did acid once and smoked a LOT of pot as a youth (age 12-16).

@HDW

Did you miss the part where I posted she has had the same job going on 14 years?

The alcohol and drugs were definately a factor in her poor desicion making.

Yes, right now my mental state isn't quite solvent, but I think you will find me cooly rational. I need to be, my life demands it.

She is a 29 year old married woman, if she is going to be present at parties and be 'enticed' into doing cocaine, then it is simply her own doing. If you choose to mitigate her choices in these things, then she will never be accountable.

Part of the reason MB is a successful program is because it requires the sanctity of the marriage to be placed above all else.

Which means getting rid of the job AND the friends who encouraged these things - in other words, her best friend and the others.

If she is incapable of doing those things then she makes it clear she is not willing to be the wife and mother you want her to be, that you think she COULD be. Anyone can be anything, but they have to want to be those things.

Welcome to MB, sorry you are here ... however this is the best place to be for situations like yours. YOur getting alot of great advice! ALso you have done pretty much what MB would expect you to do. You SHOULD expose this POSOM to his parents if you havent done so already.

Please listen to the vets .. as they will guide you with what steps to take to kill this affair. Also do NOT tell your WW that you will be exposing OR of this site yet til you are SURE that your ww is in NC with her AP.

ALso noted you (like me) are from the same worldy region! BC FTW!

And get the books "HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS" and "LOVE BUSTERS" and "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR" and then the great work book "5 STEPS TO ROMANTIC LOVE". They will provide much better insight to the MB program and then you will have a much better/easier time understanding the help and advice you recieve here.

Stay calm ... cool and collective (like James Bond). Read ALL you can .. get print outs of the questionairs (available on the site in the navigation at the top) and use them to learn what each of your emotional needs are .. and what your love busters are and begin your STELLAR PLAN A to show your wife that YOU are the man she needs and not some little POS kid.

I agree that her cheating and doing drugs is all on her. I certainly don't condone any of it.

I also agree that she needs to take herself out of her [censored] dead end job as a waitress. Hanging out with teens all day and the like.

WW's best friend is making atonement for the drug use. WW's best friend knows she screwed up, to the point of irreconcilable differences between her and myself. WW's Best friend won't give up cocaine however...

My WW has expressed he extreme displeasure towards the drug use of her best friend.

I am fairly confident that this is the first time my WW has done cocaine. A quick search of her internet history reveals some pretty ridiculous questions about doing cocaine such as:

"Does doing cocaine make your voice hoarse?"
"How much cocaine do you do before you get addicted?"

ETC...


Thanks MrNiceGuy...

Coincidentally, your username is *ahem* quite funny when it comes to smoking pot.

I am pretty sure she is NC with the OM. WW's Best Friend (atonement) and those that I have exposed my WW's cheating to would tell me. WW's friends, some of whom are co-workers know my extreme displeasure of the whole situation.

They have figured out quite quickly that big boy and big girl games aren't as fun as they may have thought.

Was it an MB exposure where you specifically asked them to 'use their influence'? Is it possible they thought you were merely informing them, so they are unsure of their role? They may not help, but if you don't ask, you don't get.

I had the same problem with my MIL. I showed her texts as proof and asked for support. Then she told me OW had been around to tell her that she had 'not been in an A with your son'. She told me that she hadn't known what to say to OW. I told her the whole point of my sharing the proof was that she wouldn't let those lies be told. She then told OW she knew she was lying and told her she would never be welcome in her family. She then started on her son.

Who else in yours/her family or yours/her friends have been asked to help? Surely someone will?

What about your parents? They are critcal targets.



So he would be easy to find then. Sadly just a kid? Its amazing that he's just a punk kid with nothing to offer. That makes exposure success ever more likely. He will drop your wife like the old sock he regards her to be. She needs to see how she is truly regarded by these men.

I am surprised by your attitude toward someone who supplies drugs to and screws your wife. Your wife needs to see you raise all kinds of hell here. Its unloving not to.

She is very foggy and only a full scale nuclear exposure is going to work on someone this entitled. Anything less is like bringing a pea shooter to a nuclear war.

Exposure often brings about the change in attitude in the wayward you desperately need.

Your EPs are also a little weak, even for a one-time cheater whereas your W seems likely to be a serial cheat.

There's no way you can skip a poly. No way at all. You also need transparency as a condition and the MB recovery plan agreed to. You also need no opposite sex friends as a condition.

You need to verify independently using snooping tools. How are they going to know if she has a secret affair phone stashed away?

Not sure how my username relates to your statement.

Can you find OM's family and expose to them?

"Pretty sure" when it relates to NC isn't NC at all.

True NC is where *she* demonstrates to *you* that she is, at all times, NC. She's nowhere near that.

From an old Dave Chapelle movie called "Half Baked."

@ MrNiceGuy - See the movie: Half-Baked.

MrNiceGuy was the brand name unto which the "protagonists" in the movie peddled thier pot.

Now to allay everyone's opinions here, during my lunch break I went to talk to my MIL. She wasn't supportive in the way that I would have hoped, but we did broach the topic of WW's cocaine and partying. MIL agrees that WW should chill the [censored] out when it comes to the partying and MIL also agrees that WW should get a new job as well.

MIL is un a tight spot of her own, so I pushed the issue as much as possible without becoming unwanted.

Now as far as NC with OM, I am pretty sure. I have been snooping, key logging and gathering intel from all sources. Next on the list is a VAR in the car... which is on order.

I have accomplices everywhere. I am well liked in this town.

My parents adore my wife, but they have been supportive of me 100% even though my Father has been a bit of a [censored] bag to me my whole life.

Funny story (or not), I caught my own Father doing cocaine in the bathroom of a local bar. He's also a recovering alcoholic along with my Step Mother.

It's no small wonder why I don't drink or do drugs anymore. Frigging trap.

I am looking for OM's Father. Pretty sure I know where he lives, but no phone or reverse phone in his Last Name so I will have to do it the ols fashioned way by checking mail after the postman.

Also I have a friend who's house overlooks potential OM's Fathers residence. If residence is OM's I will be able to find out when OM is in town.

MIL did confirm that WW said this was her first time cheating. I don't feel WW would lie to MIL because she would be excommunicated from family. MIL did confront WW but MIL is a private person, much like my WW is.

Me? I am extremely open and honest, perhaps to a fault. Still WW is going to learn what real rectal snooping is soon enough.

Last night I went into WW's FB and Bank Acct to check for anomalies. I also checked WW's cell.

Everything is clear so far.

Ahh ok .. thanks for the enlightenment lol .. I have seen the movie but i didnt remember that.

Why do you trust your mother in law?
What makes you think MIL would know? Because you dont think your wife would lie to her?
LOOK AT YOUR WIFES ACTIONS. She is using drugs, partying and having one night stands. Why would you believe anything she said or supposedly told your mother in law?

You seem to defend the drug use.
Do you have children?

Do you understand that the OM may not be the one responsible? I mean, he's 20 or so years old and an attractive woman (who happens to be married) got drugs from him and offered to screw him. From a 20 year old, dope head kid's perspective that's a good deal.

If your wife commits one night stands, then she may be done with this 20 year old anyway. Boundaries are the issue. Boundaries like why the hell is a grown up out "partying?" I thought only college kids "partied." Most responsible people cant get drunk and high and be out all night with friends because they have responsibilities like kids and jobs.

Number 1 Boundary: No going out alone anymore.

Number 2 Boundary: No alcohol or drugs; if thats a problem (and it shouldnt be a problem if both persons are not addicted), then commitment to joining a AA program.



Will she agree to that?

Oh and obviously STD testing should be done ASAP

Lots of OM learned their trade from wayward dads. Try to find his mother and expose to both if posible, just in case. If you have his name can you find him on Facebook?


That's precisely why she would lie. Lie and hope no one asks for proof. You need that poly.

I would put VARS in the house AND car. Anywhere she would get comfy for a phone chat.

Can you get spyware on her phone and a GPS in car and on phone?

@H D W - Reading comprehension failure?

I have stated in no uncertain terms that I condone WW's partying and drinking.

Pretty sure I have allowed a little too much IB and I'll have to break both of us of that habit. I definately abuse my own IB.

If WW lies to MIL, and I have spilled the important beans to MIL (the ones I am sure WW didn't tell MIL) I am sure I will hear about it when MIL confronts WW again.

You see WW only has MIL and BIL for family left. BIL will follow MIL and MIL is not to be trifled with.

MIL is now the Matriarch of the family since the recent death of MIL's parents. FIL is a useless tit because he talks a good yarn, but never delivers. FIL has his hands full with his own deviant children.

I concur with the boundaries as set forth. Any other suggestions?

I am going to get this in wrinting and have the WW sign a contract.

No cannot install spyware on WW's phone. Crappy model with LG proprietary OS.

I have a nice phone, 'cause I'm awesome that way.

I have as much digital monitoring as possible without a secret GPS and VAR. Both are planned.

I guarantee you WW will not lie to MIL because MIL will troll the piss out of WW. If MIL finds out WW lies to her it's all over for WW.

FYI, poly cost $500 in my area.

Going to dig further.

YOU sir ... are ON THE BALL!

I applaud you! Not often we see the BS behave like you are .. there is a few .. but usually it takes 20 pages to convince the BS to expose and snoop. Keep up the good work!

The following is the letter containing BARE MINIMUM requirements recommended by Dr H. In your case set the bar higher due to her addictions etc.
----------------------------------

I want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and I will NOT stay in a loveless marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take:

1. End all contact with OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is written together and mailed by me

2. No more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. Complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. No more opposite sex friendships

5. Complete honesty about your affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. Commit to a program for recovery of my choice (MB).

This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage. You will have to have willingness and ability to make radical changes in your life if we are going to be married. Your lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back, these precautions are to prevent another affair.
----------------------------------

Dr H says if just one condition is skipped or glossed over, a FR is a certainty.

Check out the FR thread for true stories of this.

Drop it in the toilet or drop a hammer on it. Buy WW a nice new all singing all dancing phone with spyware preinstalled cause you're such an amazing hubby who loves her.

Her phone is prob a nasty trigger for you anyway.




She simply intends for MIL to never find out. They aren't logical they're addicts. We see waywards all the time who risk court martials and losing evrything they own to keep things secret And keep them going. They lie and then they lie some more.

^--- that there is some GREAT PLAN A! Highly recommended!

WW is already shopping for a nicer phone. I might convince her to buy an Android phone.

P.S. I have already rooted my Android Phone and I frequently install custom ROMs on my own phone 'cause I am awesome that way.

Her phone is a crazy trigger for me.

Understandable

Go ahead and buy the phone for her, like it was suggested by indie. Plan A AND snooping could be accomplished.

No buy it for her as a surprise. Meets needs for FS, affection etc.


And the all important need for you to snoop on her

I am not adverse to buying a phone for her, I know it'll be easy to install an Android or BB snooper on there.

Wayyyy off-topic, but are you over at XDA?

Yeah, you bet. You?

You mentioned her phone as a trigger...

Let me tell you my experience with phones:

- Discovered the affair by finding dozens of disgusting text messages on her cell phone.

- Discovered an affair phone (prepaid) in her car with more of the same, this one met a ball peen hammer.

- Discovered she bought a second affair phone by looking at a Target receipt. When I demanded she hand it over, she claim she gave it to a friend. I demanded that she get it for me, so the next day she bought yet another prepaid phone and gave it to me instead.

- Never did produce the other phone and I could never find it.

- Fast forward to being divorced for 6 months, she gives my oldest son his own cell phone. Guess what, its the affair phone with contacts and some call history still in it! She gave the damn affair phone to my son...GRRRR.

I HATE cell phones...

A ball peen is the right answer to so many perplexing questions of what to do with affairanalia.

Yup. Same user name, just no underscore. I'm in with the Galaxy Note crowd.

Good to know about the affair phone...

My WW is poor enough that another prepay style phone might be out of reach, but I'll snoop in her car, which I havent done in a while...


I am on the Samsung Galaxy 3 forums. Yay for almost fully functional ICS!

Excluding the WW? I kid, I kid, of course she is fair game.

Sarcasm extremely intentional.

Checked WW's car. All clean. WW hasn't as of late, including all my snooping etc... given me cause to think she is in contact with OM, nor any other A's...

*Cautiously* optimistic on this one.

Thoughts?

I have some thoughts.
My ex was in her 30's when she had a EA then PA with a 20something POS. That was 11 years ago. 7 years later it started again with a POS next door who also happened to be 10 years her junior. Why? probably because we never recovered properly from the first go around. We THOUGHT we recovered. NC was in place (in spite of not knowing about MB). We thought we had a great marriage after that. Everyone thought we had a great marriage after that. But in reality we just gradually slipped back into the same behaviors and attitudes that lead to the original A (including my own along the way ). No MB recovery = no recovery.

I'm just saying that you are absolutely in the right place to understand what is going on. You are in the right place to continue to try and evaluate what you want to do and how to do it. However, it takes time. Time, patience, and a lot of reading, writing, and reflecting. These concepts are difficult to grasp fully and even harder to implement. However, they are ESSENTIAL to your future success in a marriage. You need to "get it" and your wife needs to "get it" or you will find yourself in a similar situation down the road. Next time it might not be so cut-and-dried: you might have other people to consider.

opt

PS. My exWW wasin the food service industry as well. It's an excellent area to work in if you happen to have zero boundaries.

When you say it was 'clean', what do you mean?

Are you verifying using ALL snooping methods possible?

VARs, GPS, keyloggers etc?

Clean one day doesnt mean clean the next.

MBers are neither optimistic nor pessimistic and they do not hope or despair.

They have a plan for all eventualities, and they do not hope, they verify.

A good start. Keep on!

Thanks optimism and indiegirl.

I am not so naive to think that just because she hasn't done anything as of late, that I know of.... that she won't engage in further behavior.

I am verifying as much as I can, when I can, including asking people she is going to visit, her work schedule, monitoring the computers, snooping in her cell, following her, asking where she will be etc...

I am a curious skeptic by nature. It's also the reason why I am good at my job. Skeptic of ideas presented, but curious to entertain learning before jumping to a conclusion.

I know this all too well.

I am often presented with problems where there is a clear solution based on sound science and methodogy, but am often hindered by political issues, because science and engineering plays second fiddle to emotions. In this manner I am challenged to provided alternate solutions to the physical and politcal challenges.

Here's a good read for anyone like myself who has ever wondered "why" about society:

**edit**

This should be mandatory reading for anyone with an IQ over 80.

Yoir snooping methods are good old fashioned ones you should certainly keep doing. Those methods certainly worked for me.

But I would certainly add at least a VAR to the mix. Something she wouldn't expect and couldn't anticipate. She's on alert now.

The A is an enemy, if you read the Art of War in my sig, an important tactic is to attack using the least expected method.

Sat in my car overlooking her work as she visited with her friend that provided her with coke.

Can see into the table that the staff usually sits at.

While out to dinner with friends she received texts from a new number. Will have to monitor.

Most likely same said friend as her cell phone died a little while ago.

Going silent for a while. WW suspects that I am checking up on her. I will be back when the level of suspicion lessens.

Other news, WW has agreed to get rid of the cell phone.

WW was looking at Cuckold Porn yesterday... gross.

Anyone run into this?

Unfortunately, it's not entirely uncommon, though not every WS does this. When a person leaves behind all morality and decency, adultery is often only one of many destructive vices they indulge in.

When you're talking about a WW who has committed adultery, crossed taboos while doing so, and done drugs besides, it's not unthinkable that she would delve into porn, as well. It doesn't make it any less painful, just less surprising.

In order to become a woman fit to be a good wife and mother, she will need to make the most fundamental changes, all the way at the foundational character level. God will help her with that, if she lets Him.

I don't really care about the porn. I indulge in porn all the time.

What bothers me however, is the content of the porn.

Much in the way that one would have an issue with their spouse looking at bestiality, child porn or anything of dubious content.

Porn is adultery.

Says you. I on the other hand, do not have reservations about porn.

How does your wife feel about your porn use?

She knows I look at porn. It doesn't bother her. I know she looks at porn. It doesn't bother me.

Now having said that, the content being "Cuckold" porn (Where a Husband allows his wife to be seduced by another man, or is unwittingly cheated on by a wayward spouse) seems highly inappropriate at this juncture in time.

Truth be told, I don't fantasize about the "actor/actress" in the porn, but more the sex act(s).

So let me get this straight:

Porn is Adultery.
Therefore if Married people watch porn it is Adultery.

This begets the question then, if a Single person watches porn is that still Adultery?

Religious persons need not reply.

"Single" and "Adultery" cannot exist in the same sentence.

I think you are trying to shift focus away from you using porn.

Please explain how porn is not bad for marriage.

You'll find that the predominant attitude around here is that porn use constitutes adultery. This ranges from religious folks who believe lust is a sin, to the Dr. Harley statement that sexual fulfillment should only be shared with one's spouse, to those women whose husbands obsessively look at porn and are unable to become interested or erect without an increasing array of costumes, positions, toys, or scenarios - and frequently have premature ejaculation problems from frequent masturbation.


The predominant attitude is that if you watch porn without your wife, it is adultery. If your wife watches porn without you, it is adultery. There are some here who think that if you POJA to watch it together, then it's okay, because then you are sharing the activity of sexual fulfillment. Most, however, think it has no place in a marital relationship.


Nope. Adultery is a crime that has a victim, and if you're single then there's no victim. That said, it's still not held to be a great idea, because:

• it sets up unrealistic expectations of what a woman's body should look like
• it sets up unrealistic expectations of what positions are possible, feasible, or even comfortable
• it sets up unrealistic expectations of what it takes to get a woman aroused and in the mood for sex
• it can induce premature ejaculation issues because you are conditioned to orgasm quickly
• it can induce erectile dysfunction with real women because you're not getting the level of visual stimulation you're used to
• religious strictures against lust and/or masturbation

HeadHeldHigh has written several great posts on 'contrast effect', which covers most of what I bulleted above.

I'm an agnostic and tried to provide practical reasons why it's a bad idea, rather than fire and brimstone.

Porn is pretty damaging to marriages under the lovebank model, whereas if you're single there's no one and nothing to hurt.

I never had a problem with it before MB and was a bit surprised my H didn't use it. However if you read the articles on porn here, the dangers make sense.

We had a couple on here recently who both used porn. The contrast effect had gotten so bad over time they didn't even find each other attractive and needed to fantasise about their porn just to enjoy the experience. Flattering, huh? It led to As on both sides. Dr H said their powerful attraction to each other would return if they just stopped the porn.

Your ENs like SF and PA can't be met without you developing feelings. You shouldn't be developing feelings for porn when you could be bonding with your wife and vice versa.

Porn is like junk food. Its easy, fast and satisfies. But regular users get complacent, lazy, lose their palate for real food and develop no cooking skills.

Usually its a POJA issue too as women aren't enthusiastic about the comparisons.

However it tends to be a much worse situation when the woman thinks porn is a good idea, has no jealousy, and uses it herself. That usually does not bode well.

I've only seen or heard of that here.

This is what Dr.Harley says about porn:

Addiction to Pornography #1

Addiction to Pornography #2

Yes, says me.

But not just me.

You get your "fulfillment" from all sorts of men/women, and you have the audacity to wonder why your wife screwed around, or is doing the same, just more perverted?

You've let her know with 100% certainty that there is nothing special about her to you. **edit** No woman wants that, I don't care what they say.

You know nothing about me other than what I have posted here **edit**.

Whether I look at porn or not has no bearing on my WW's choice to cheat. Period.

**edit**

I am not sorry folks, I have no problem with porn. I have no illusions as to the nature of pornography either.

I understand that people can get addicted to porn.
I understand that some people find porn to be a sexual crutch.
I understand that religious people have an issue with porn as being immoral.
I understand that porn can cause people to think unrealistic things about love making.

I do not suffer from the aforementioned afflictions.

I would like think we are all adults here. At least, I should hope we are. It would be creepy for kids to be floating around here...

So why don't you POJA it with your wife?

What does she say?

A wayward wouldn't care. And there is no excuse for her having an A.

NotMy, do you believe that only your WW needs to change any aspects of herself and you will recover?

Porn watching can escalate to full blown adultery. It is the first step in the immoral behaviour that allows you to believe that adultery is okay.

This is true. There is no excuse for her A. You are both 50 per cent responsible for the conditions of the M. She is 100 per cent responsible for her decision to cheat.



Youd have to give it up to follow an MB recovery plan. Its impossible to contiunue under MB because it 'squanders' opportunities to fall back in love. Sex deposits more LB units than any other activity. So in MB sexual activity must be exclusive.

We are bound by the ToS (and our own forum experience) to give only MB advice. You wont hear non MB advice around here.

Don't you think your wifes attitude to porn is somthing of a red flag?

So it would have been OK the week before fantasy became reality?

The theme you find distasteful is just what all porn does. All porn is based on some taboo being broken. Usually the taboo is propositioning a stranger or someone inappropriate. That isn't a harmless fantasy either (for a married person) if its an idea that really appeals.

An idea that really appeals changes a persons sexual appetite.
Your wife found the cuckold concept appealing. She probably finds other porn scenarios appealing too.

What's the difference between her cheating in the mind, lusting after the images of actors - and doing it in body?

We see this merge towards danger all the time here.

If a woman you knew offered to make you a sexual video of her,as a one-off just for kicks would you accept?

What about sending pics to your phone?

What's the difference between a RL woman and an actress?

None, really.

If you limit your MB advisors to non-Christians only, there will be very few left to talk to you.

Porn can be bad for a marriage no doubt about it. But it is not the same as cheating. They do not leave the marriage for a porn partner and all the other things involved in an affair. They don't move porn partner into their house or introduce you to porn partner.

For instance my XW loved to withhold sex from me. That was her "Thing". She would make me pay by stopping sex unless I caved in to whatever she wanted. So she ended up screwing another man on the side.

You would think that withholding sex from your husband would cause him to cheat. But instead she was the one that withheld and cheated.

So why didn't I cheat? It was a big need for me yet I chose not to do it. Well the reason I did not cheat is because it is wrong.

Porn is not an excuse to have an affair. If it is then men who have wives that shop too much and spend to much money could cause a man to have an affair.

But we all know that is not an excuse or a reason to cheat.

The strange thing is I divorced her and now she hardly even dates anyone. She was sleeping with another man when we were married but she is so sad all the time now she does not date.

That does not mean that I think porn is good for a marriage. But one thing I know for sure is she is taking cocaine and she even watches porn herself.

I realize a lot of women hate porn. Can someone please explain to me why they don't want men to look at porn but in the nightstand next to the bed they have a drawer of sex toys for her. I guess what I am saying if porn is cheating then using sex toys and not having sex with your husband would be cheating also. A women is getting "Fulfillment" from her toys while lamenting the fact that her spouse is getting his jollies looking at porn just seems wrong to me.

But we all know there is no valid reason to bring another PERSON into the marriage.

OP you have some hard choices to make. I like what you have done with exposure. Be vigilant and don't let your her lie to you. You guys have a long way to go to repair your marriage. Best of luck to you.

The rule that only your spouse meets ENs applies to both men and women. Sex without your spouse, using any kind of porn or gadget, is a missed opportunity to meet each others most intimate needs and a red flag that you are not POJAing sex fulfillment properly.

Meeting your own needs independently is not MB.

No one suggested anything to do with gadgets. Both men and women on these boards were merely giving MB advice that porn leads to affairs and is bad for a marriage even where it hasnt yet.

Neither do adulterers. They want sex on the side and their BS to carry on meeting a variety of needs in the home.

We have a BW on these boards right now who is battling a problem where her H is constantly contacting porn pros for video and phone sex. They are also available for hook ups in person for the right amount of cash. He refuses to take a poly to prove he has not already done this. His porn habit began in a light user way.

The original poster on this thread objected to pictures of an OM taken on a phone when his wife was not with him. But was it really much of a moral leap for her, considering the porn pics she usually looked at, which were taken elsewhere?

Not every porn user becomes an addict, but not every smoker dies of cancer. Anyone who would run the risk rather than make a better, exclusive sex life , is very probably an addict that can't face giving up.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

Alright, I am back after cooling off and dealing with a variety of issues.


*****EDIT****

Please email any complaints, concerns, questions about Moderation on MB directly to the moderators or to me JustUss2@aol.com per TOS!!
**************************


Now I ask you MB'ers, what is it about porn that makes it so bad? I have looked over the bevvy of citations for the descrimination of porn from those that are not adverse to it on the basis of faith. Furthermore, I really don't see anything there that applies to my situation.

Now, having said that there seems to be some sort of pre-existing stigma here that is unwarranted. Were it that the content of the porn was that of two married people consumating their relationship in a husband and wife manner, would that then be appropriate?

It also appears that the concern is that porn can lead to some sort of fantasy become reality (or vice versa), but this precludes everything else that is also fantasy.

Consider logical fallacies here. Circumstantial Ad Hominem, Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, Post Hoc, Appeal to Belief, Begging the Question... I see a great deal of these.

Heck, I might be guilty of prescribing the Relativist Fallacy - given that there was actual empirical evidence indicating that porn is actually "bad".

Personally, I am appalled at the Moderation on this forum. In no way would I allow some of the "shock and awe" that goes on in this forum on any of my forums. Period.

See NG, someone is urging the mods to be more censorious!
Great! That'll reduce each of his posts to "***edit*** ***edit*** ***edit***" Hey, on second thought, that IS an improvement!

"Posom/Posow" is too kind. The acronym serves as a tremendous time-saver for the string of derogatory ajectives we'd like to put together to describe the destructive nature of these selfish, cowardly individuals (note: I'm a former cheater and I deserve all the descriptors, for sure). I would invite any of them to come here and defend their actions. If they don't want to be called pieces of [censored], then they shouldn't act like pieces of [censored]. And if you don't think destroying families and ruining innocent children's lives is a reprehensible act, then maybe this site is not for you.

As porn relates to Relationships (the point of this site, afterall is how to build stronger relationships), pornography is detrimental to the integrity of a marriage. I didn't think so either until I gave it up (inspired by Dr. Harley's writing). I would recommend the porn-free life to anyone, it's hard to describe, but something changes in you. You're explanations are too erudite for me, I only speak from experience and I do wish you the best NMUN.

~optimism

(T/J)Mods we love you! You work so hard to protect us from trolls and have even helped women in abusive situations seek help safely)

NMUN: I find it fascinating that you have aligned yourself with affair partners in this 'poor me' party you are throwing. No one called you a PoS, nor would we! cut the drama queen act.

I could write pages as to why my former best friend, who caused trouble in my marriage, then mugged me of it, is a POSOW. But I'm not going to, because you're clearly employing a technique to get us off the subject of your situation, oh master of distraction.

We merely told you porn was bad for marriage.

But if porn is too important to you to give up, that's your call.

Why not give up porn for a year, just to see if it makes a difference? If it's truly not that big a deal to you, then that shouldn't be difficult to do.

Have you POJA your pornography use with your wife? What does she say?
What is Sexual Addiction by Dr. Harley

What do you think about the "contrast effect"?
POJA

They have POJAd it, BrainHurts - his wife likes porn too.

That way they can both have contrast effect.

Yes!

**edit**

If you have an issue with the way the board is moderated, then email the moderators or the administrator. If you have an issue with the way others post, notify the moderators and let us decide on a course of action, if any. But don't disrupt this board anymore with complaints about other posters or moderators.

This is a good question, NmUN but watching a married couple on tape still would still not be exclusive. It fails to fill each others lovebanks.

If you get aroused by your wife,it fills 'admiration' coins in her lovebank.

And vice versa.

If you get aroused by porn actress/the married woman on screen the coins are not paid to your wife - they get squandered.

If your wife dresses up in something sexy for you, she puts PA coins in your lovebank.

If you instead choose an actress on screen who is wearing something you like, the coins go unspent.

Of course the same applies to your wife when she admires/finds attractive porn actors. She is wasting the opportunity to bond with you each time.

PLEASE understand this has nothing to do with her decision to have an affair. That was her bad choice and you had nothing to do with it.

We are just making you aware that the porn would have to go in recovery.

It takes 20 hours plus undivided attention time to rebuild love following an affair.

There's no time to waste squandering coins on images of strangers.

I cannot participate in a community where there is so many problems and double standards.

Thank you all to those who have helped me.

I hope I have given everyone here cause to pause and think about some things here.


Goodbye.

I should have asked the question better. I was asking if you POJA'd the porn, because both he and his wife don't mind viewing porn, but why aren't you doing it together? Then it sounds like IB behavior because they aren't doing it together. He said he didn't mind that he and his wife view porn, but was bothered when he found she was viewing "cuckold porn". So that is what I was trying to ask NMUN.

Which Notmyusername, did say that he and his wife experience IB and would have to change that if they go into recovery.

I guess none of this matters now because he said he is done with the forum.

I hope he chooses to use the MB principles or contact the coaching center to recover from his WW's affair and to have a wonderful marriage.

Watching it togethr is still not MB because it involves getting aroused to others and telling your partner they are not enough.

Well, gosh darn it. Another poster with all the answers who had a perfect opportunity to explain to us why we're wretched humans in need of edumacation. I guess we're just not capable of learning and we've tried his patience to the breaking point. When ever will we learn?? ...sigh...

Actually maritalbiss I did find this thread very educational.


But perhaps not in the way he means!

Just find addiction so fascinating

Yeah, I don't think he meant it that way.