Hello everyone - hope all is well with each of you in this ever chaotic world of Dating After Divorce.

OK - now I need objective opinions. Sit a spell, this could get lengthy.

I'm in a long term(?) relationship with a fella for almost 1 1/2 years now. I have really had no complaints, things were for the most part going A-OK. No marriage plans, no big promises of "forever" - just slowly enjoying each other's company, and becoming more and more attached every day.

Well, this weekend, I had a stressful life changing situation happen - and my boyfriend's reaction has just hurt me to the core. I'll explain.....

I had to put one of my dogs to sleep last Friday (14 years old). Now, I know for some this is no big deal - but for those of you pet owners out there, I'm sure you will understand how absolutely heartbreaking this can be. I have no children, so my dogs (I have 3) are my "kids" - and it was a heartbreaking experience. My boyfriend knew ahead of time - I remember telling him on the phone that I had made the vet appointment, and he seemed genuinely sorry to hear. Well, Friday came, I was a miserable mess, and really could have used a shoulder to cry on. I don't know if I had unrealistic expectations or not, but I didn't get a call or visit from my boyfriend that day. I guess I just assumed (that gets us in trouble, I know) that he would have known that Friday would have been a bad day for me, and would have wanted to be there for me. Saturday came, still no call. Sunday came, no call. I'm disappointed to say the least. That got me thinking.....

I had two other major lifechanging experiences in the time I've been dating him. I had a breast biopsy done - same thing - he knew about it ahead of time, but no "how are you" call or visit afterwards. The second was just recently, I had a major "female" surgery the end of July. Again, he knew about it - no call.

My fault in this - I've never expressed how hurt I am/was when he wasn't there for support on any of these occasions, I just internalized my disappointment. Well, it's starting to fester into resentment. I am falling back into my awful lack of communication skills like I had with my ex-husband, and it's making me even more angry.

First question - did I have unrealistic expections? Was I asking too much for him to understand that I need him for times like those I mentioned above?

Second - how do I address it with him that I can effectively express how hurt I am/was without my resentment and anger coming to the surface?

Thanks.....
Laura

Yes. You're expecting him to read your mind.

Carefully. Think about how you would have liked for him to act. Write it down and rewrite until it doesn't come across as blaming. You don't have to give it to him. Just try to work out how to express what you want. Take time to get over your disapointment before addressing this with him. Use "I would like..." rather than "You didn't...". It sounds like he is being consistant. Some peolple like to have some time alone when facing something difficult. Consider that he might have been trying to help you by giving you some space. Of course, it should be addressed because he needs to learn what you want and need. I think this is a communication problem, not a sign that he doesn't care.

I agree with the above.

He can't read your mind, and since you didn't call him, he may have figured you were handling things just fine.

I dunno - I guess men and women are just wired different. I would suppose that if I knew that a friend (or him) was having a stressful medical procedure, or let's say my friend (or he) lost a loved one - the FIRST thing I would do is pick up the phone and express my sorrow, and ask if there was anything I could do to help. If I was told that my friend (or he) needed space and time alone, I would respect that. But, I didn't get that chance, he didn't even call - no nothing.....I respectfully think that a caring friend would ATTEMPT some type of contact.

One more thought I had - believe it or not, I'm not a very needy person, but for goodness sake, do I have to spell it out for everyone that I meet, or date for over a year and a half? I mean, do I have to explain to someone that "in times of stress, a phone call would be nice to show me that you care". I mean, isn't that just doing what comes natural? You'd think that if you are in a long term relationship that the other person (whether man or woman) would sort of have an "idea" of what type of person you are? Did I expect him to rush right over, hold my weeping head in his hands? No. But a phone call would have been nice. Just to update you, I still haven't heard from him - it's now Monday evening. Me thinks that he's good at avoiding anything unpleasant......

And, that would be a deal breaker for me.

Laura

I don't believe you had unrealistic expectations at all! I certainly don't think you expected him to read your mind either. I think it's a "given" that your boyfriend, and any good friend for that matter, would call to see how you were doing and to lend support.

Thank you!! That's what I was trying to convey - I do think it's a "given" that when someone you care for is hurting, you can lend support.

{{{Laura}}},

I agree with bluer skies too.It was not too much to ask for a bit of well wishes or sympathy during these times.Is he emotionally "dead" inside or has he been warm and comforting in other areas? Afterall,you have not been just going out a month.You've been seeing him for over a year.

At this point I would bring it up and see what he says.Maybe he really does have no clue how to comfort someone when they need it and those instances were all prime examples of where he should have been available to you.Hopefully it wouldn't take getting hit by a car to get a reaction from him.

Don't let this fester.Get it out and in the open now.And don't fall into the silence trap either.ALWAYS express concerns right away.

I Hope the surgery went well and the biopsy was benign.

Take Care~

When I am going through something stressful like this, I often want to be left alone. My ex-wife, on the other hand, wanted to be pampered. We had to learn about each other's preferences, and to respond accordingly, instead of following the Golden Rule.

So, Laura, how does this man like to be treated in such circumstances? Do you know?

As others have said, this is something you need to talk about (and fbwidow gave good advice as to the how).

All that said, however, I have to admit that the insensitivity here seems a bit extreme. If I had to guess, I'd guess that we've got an avoidance problem going on. But you won't know actually know unless you communicate.

Thanks AmericanBeauty - the biopsy was benign....that was a huge relief. The surgery - well, we'll see what the long term results are in a few months.....

Looking back, I have seen a few red flags lately - he's not the most outwardly warm person, and I really am doubting whether or not he "can" be.....and while I don't expect constant reassurance and affection, I guess I DO expect that when the chips are down, he would have come through for me. I'm more disappointed and hurt than angry, because as you said, we have been seeing each other for over a year. I really have been wondering for a while if he is sort of "dead" inside emotionally.

I will discuss this when the opportunity presents itself. I've thought about this for a while now, and I am truly more the "giver" here amd I don't want to fall into that co=dependent behavior that I have in the past. I can't just ignore this, or I will have given him the message that it's A-OK, and that's NOT what I'm looking for. This will be a very good test for me on how I've grown (or not grown) in my communication skills.

Thanks for your thoughts.

And just to add in to what GDP said,your BF should have called to see if you were ok and then if you said,"I'm ok, I just want to be alone",then that would be fine,but he never even called.

To me,it's basic common courtesy and care for you that went missing here.You didn't lose your wallet.You went
"under the knife" and needle and lost a beloved pet.

Let us know how the conversation goes.

THTB, sorry for your loss.

I don't think you had unrealistic expectations but quite reasonable, nor I think he had to be 'mind reader' to know how to behave; he had to know (after 1,5 years) what you felt for your pet, and he shouldn't hide/neglect you when trouble/pain knocks at your door, and also, this has nothing to do with him being "not the most outwardly warm person" but rather being polite, with good manners, and... human.
And no, expecting his call/comfort for this is not 'falling into that co=dependent behavior'.
And you know what, with all respect for some MB rules (btw, they are not rules of 3D world and people out there don't understand always that 'language'), I could care less if I effectively or not express how hurt and dissapointed and angry I am...

THTB,

First, let me say that I'm sorry for your loss. I'm a pet lover too and I greatly empathize. And I'm thankful that your biopsy came out OK.

I'm with the other posters on the common courtesy. I would not let a friend go through those situations without at least offering support or calling to see how things went.

That being said, I think that's typically they way women tend to respond. I'm learning that men, like animals, are rather simple creatures and respond well to some basic training. Many of them, even the good ones, have inherited the insensitive clod gene. It's the same mechanism that causes them to forget birthdays, anniversaries, and other important dates.

They really just don't think like we do. Talk to him and explain it to him in simple terms that he can understand. Like when his football team loses - he'd like someone to be there for him to lean on and console him. That should get his attention.

I agree with both sides of the fence here.

Though in MHO, He's making it appear that he has little comforting skills.
Does he typically call you a couple of times a week or day? And it seemed to you that he was avoiding you?

After 1 1/2 years of dating he knows how attached you are to your dogs. I'm an animal lover and I'd be mortified if he didn't even call to say he felt bad for your loss and offer himself emotionally to you.

You have seen the red flags a few times now. Either spill your guts out in what emotional needs you have and what you expect from him or move on quietly. It just sounds like he can't give of himself emotionally. My WH is that way and you learn to walk alone or rely on those that do truly care about you and what's important to YOU...

Hugs and I'm sorry for the loss of your "special friend". Your other dogs probably brought more comfort than this guy....

Thank you soooo much - I thought that I was crazy or maybe being just a little too sensitive. That's how I would behave during my marriage - I had a master manipulator for a husband - he would do something to hurt me terribly, and he would do his BEST to turn it around to make me feel like I've done something wrong to HIM - and eventually I would apologize to HIM - when in actuality I was due the apology. That's co-dependent behavior at it's best......

I've had a few days now to think through this entire scenario. You are so right - I AM moritified that he has disappeared off the face of the earth at a time when I needed him (for the THIRD time) and I think that I have every right to be moritified.......his reaction is inexcusable to me, for my needs. And, I really don't think that my needs are unreasonable.

You are right again, I must decide whether or not to walk alone or find others to rely on for support. Well, I've decided. I won't walk alone - I did that for 12 years of marriage - won't do it again. I want a PARTNER this time, in good times AND bad. I'm just so disappointed.

And yes, my other two dogs AND family AND friends were much more comforting to me than this "boyfriend" was......how sad.

Yes.

Yes.

It depends on the person.
Sure you could think that. Obviously, you do think that.

On the other hand, if you never mentioned that you were hurt when he didn't call after your breast biopsy, then it is going to be harder to realize that you also wanted him to call when you had your dog euthanized.

It is not wrong for you to want this. It is also not wrong to be hurt if he doesn't call you after your dog died, or after a major scare like your biopsy. But it is entirely possible that it never occured to him to call you. Because, as you so astutely observed, men and women are wired differently.

Tell him what you feel. Don't blame him, as others have posted, but do tell him. And for heaven's sake, tell him before the next time you have something happen that makes you want his emotional support.

Regards,
rs0522

When you are in a long relationship like this you "agree" to meet each others needs.
You have the responsibility to communicate what your needs are. He may be more than happy to meet them -- but he has to know what they are. If you are feeling resentful, that is your responsibility. Don't let things go so far before you communicate. You should have expressed your disappointment the first time -- and maybe he would have come through for you those other times.

With that being said, your needs are not unreasonable.
Just the requirement that he know them without being told.

Its like a silent test he keeps failing. And you get more unhappy each time he fails. Then you could find yourself resentful --- and vulnerable to someone who does show empathy and nurturing.

Sorry but I have to disagree here...unless this guy is a totally oblivious and hasn't emotionally aged beyond 5 years old, that asking his "girlfriend" how she is and if she needs anything would be a normal response.

Yes, there are needs that we need to tell a new partner but I would guess she has comforted him sometime in this R. Lending an ear or shoulder to a friend in need to me is a normal IMH. And really from what she's described it's like he avoided her, avoided giving emotionally. Amd if it never occured to him to call and check on her - then he is clueless and insensitive. Yes, it could be the way he was raised or his past R.

Maybe the best thing she could do is tell him how it made her feel and see how he reacts. Then decide if he's worth working on or so darn set in his ways that he'll never change.

Well, I can think of several occasions when I've been supportive to him. His kid was flunking out of college, and I sat with him and discussed for hours with him how he should address it with his son.

When his daughter was having boyfriend troubles, we sat and talked about that (and how to cure all the earth's troubles" for hours.

So, he likes to talk about HIS problems, but apparently is not comfortable about being supportive of MINE.

How often do you normally see each other? How often do you normally talk on the phone?

Truly --
This might be a mars/venus issue.

You supported HIM in the way that YOU would like to be supported. Do you know that is what he wanted?

I think you need to talk about this. Don't assume that he values being supported the same way you do, and don't assume that it comes naturally to him.

Laura,

I agree with ITHURTS.

It's one thing to let your SO know about your "needs" and take the ENQ but what you went through, should be obvious to any adult (and let me say I'm really tired of excusing men for not being more emotionally available when they should be just because they are men) that some comfort and care was due especically since he was your BF of over a year.

It's like that suggestion I see on MB all the time: men are visual creatures.Well,ask any biologist,ALL humans are visual creatures.I know I am ,very much so.I find it to be an excuse for certain behaviors.Like my ex.Who tried to use this as an excuse when he stared at other women.

Laura,are you going to talk to him??

jmo

Well, before this last crisis, we would see each other once or twice during the work week, and see as much of each other as possible on the weekends. We would talk on the phone at least every other day. His silence this time is obvious.....

I couldn't agree more. This will be a big topic of conversation when I do speak to him next. And, oh goodness, if simple kindness and compassion doesn't come NATURALLY to him, then I guess the writing is on the wall. While I realize that ALL relationships take work and effort, some things just should come naturally - like compassion.

Yes, I agree. I cannot excuse him for this just because he's a man, and it's socially acceptable these days to excuse them for being "insensitive clods" just because they are men. That's bull. I mean really, couldn't he simply say "I'm sorry" for God's sake? No excuse I've determined.

And will I talk to him again? I'm hoping to. But he's avoiding me. I'm a little too raw about the whole thing right now for ME to pick up the phone (and quite frankly, I think that maybe it's time for HIM to make the effort). I will be really disappointed if I don't hear from him soon - which in turn will make that conversation all the more difficult. I am hoping that this latest episode will not be the relationship breaker without at least talking it out - but I gotta tell you, his silence is speaking volumes to me.....

When I see the words "He should..." in this thread, immidiately my LB alarm goes off.

There is a love buster that essentially is the viewing of one perspective, point of view, or way of doing things as superior to others, and I believe there are many who are encouraging you to participate in this LB.

I'll leave the research of the LB's to you to see if you can identify which LB is being thrown around here.

I agree with those who indicate that all you have control over is you, and that he may not know exactly what you want, so you may need to ask for it in very short direct sentances.

Otherwise, what is the difference between:

He should be more sensitive to your needs.

You should just suck it up and accept that what happened happend and you shouldn't be so emotional about what happened.

Very little. (Those are examples by the way, not advice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Both sentances indicate that the views of the speaker/writer are superior than the alternative. That's what "should" means, that the advice offered IS THE way to do it, and all other ways are inferior.

I'll leave it up to you to decide which approach you'll take <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EE,

How did I know you'd show up on this thread.I hope you are not suggesting that Laura didn't deserve some compassion and care for what she went through as it seems to me. Afterall,it isn't an LB/DJ to feel the need for some comfort.She went through surgery,a biopsy and lost her pet.Her BF of over a year didn't even bother to call.I don't believe for one second it's an LB to suggest that he could/should have called her to lend his support let alone go see her.

If you go back and reread the LB concept on this site,you'll see that a strong part of couples hurting eachother can be due to a lack of empathy .Nowhere was it recommended Laura go and shout demands for comfort to her BF but *I think if we are living in a day when having your SO comfort you through a difficult time has to be discussed first since the other may just not view that as necessary or is a DJ,LB,is a sad commentary on how we treat one another.

Some people here take the concepts so literally as to do damage to their SO's.The should references the basic common courtesy and care she should have received,or anyone for that matter, for going through 3 difficult and scary events in her life.In my view,not showing this to someone you supposedly care about/love is a prime example of the lack of empathy Dr.Harley talks about.


Again,JMO.

AB,

I don't think I ever said that it was a LB to have EN's. What I believe I made clear was that is was an LB for one to state that their particular version of how they want their needs met is what others SHOULD know and do.

I do think it's an LB when we start saying this is what anyperson, he or she should do.

I agree with the idea of having a discussion and clearly stating what she wants and needs. I believe she is being set up for disappointment and LB'ing if one subscribes to the "he should..." line of thinking.

Again, that doesn't make her needs illegitimate, they are her needs.

But by saying "he should..." that makes HIS values and therefore his needs illegitimate.

They may not be a good match, especially if she needs someone to just pick up on what she needs and provide it. But that doesn't mean he is wrong, or his needs are wrong or his way of dealing with such issue is wrong.

It may not be the way she wants them met, but that is very different from say he is wrong, I.E. "he should..."

One last note, odd that folks mention common courtesy, as I see very little of that today.

Few folks say please and thank you, and if you drive more than 5 minutes / day you probably see all sorts of examples that lead you to question where the term comes from.

There are all sorts of folks who drive with the "me first" attitude, from tailgating, dressing/applying makeup whilst driving, cutting off others, not signaling, and dozens of other selfish acts.

I'd like to think that I'm courteous, and I believe that many others think they are too. The issue is that each of us has a different idea of courtesy.

I wouldn't think a thing about the death of the dog, but would probably hold the door open for the OP, if I saw her with hands full trying to get into a building, let her go ahead of me at the store if she had two items and I had a full cart, would say please and thank you, would wave her into traffic if she was trying to get out of a parking lot, etc.

Courtesy means different things to different people. So to say that this guy lacks common courtesy is probably a DJ. It's more likely that his picture of courtesy is different from hers.

That doesn't make it better or worse, just different.

Dating and marriage is about how you deal with the differences.

I percieve statements such as "he should..." or "she should..." as trying to change someone to fit the speakers mold.

I believe Patricia Evans would call this control.

Finally, on the empathy question. I believe it's unrealistic to expect someone to feel the same things you are feeling.

I'm not saying that she should put up with him if he's saying that her feelings are wrong. It's obvious she has strong feelings and attachments to the dogs, and felt a great loss when one passed.

However, to expect that he would understand these feelings is unrealistic.

She would like him to understand them, if I understand what she is saying.

But then, if I said, I believe my spouse should be able to drive a stick shift car, and if she can't then she doesn't really love me is as much of a potential LB as what many are saying here.

I'm not saying it's wrong to want someone who has the characteristics she wants. I'm saying it's probably not realistic to say "he should..." have these characteristics when talking about a specific person.

You wouldn't feel ANYTHING if a loved one of yours lost a cherished pet? Absolutely nothing? Wow......

And, I am so sorry, I say this with all due respect, but yes, he SHOULD understand my feelings of fear and sadness and anxiety about the surgery, cancer scare AND the death of a cherished pet. That's just common DECENCY..

Another thought - I truly agree that sometimes things in a relationship can be "discussed to death" - which I find exhausting. I respect and understand the need for good communication (I'm still working on my skills and am most certainly not perfect) but I also believe that some things (like manners, courtesy, decency, empathy and compassion) are innate behaviors - either you got 'em, or you don't! And I'll pass on those that don't have those basic skills/emotions.

Hmmm,

I said I would THINK and you filled in that I didn't feel.

Perhaps if you start with not changing my words around fit what you think or feel we'll better understand each other.

I never said I wouldn't feel. I doubt I'd feel the SAME things you felt, since we are two different people.

I'm a cancer survior, so I know not only what it feels like to hear the doctor's suspicions, but also know what it's like to go through multiple surgeries, chemotherapy, follow up visits.

Personally, many emotional displays come off being rather fake to me. I see people getting all ooey gooey emotional and I'm turned off.

Perhaps your partner is the same way, so he doesn't think to be that way because it bothers him when others respond with what is often called "common courtesy."

There is nothing wrong with you liking it.

But I contend there is nothing wrong with my being uncomfortable with such responses.

We probably wouldn't be a good match for one another. However, I will not just sit by and have someone tell me that my ways are "wrong" even if they are not speaking directly to me.

I have feelings, they are just different than yours. I'm not unfeeling nor am I uncaring. I just share different values.

Everyone shares different values, and what we call common courtesy is defined differently by everyone.

I could say, if you don't use turn signals everytime you turn, you lack common courtesy. But given the apparent lack of this "common courtesy" it appears it's not so common after all.

Let me once again say that I'm not saying you are wrong for wanting what you want. I'm all for you finding what you want in a relationship. Instead, I'd like to caution you that expecting a person to meet your standard, because you believe that any person SHOULD is setting yourself up for disappointment and judgmental behavior.

I do hope you find what you are looking for.

Enlightened - I in no way meant to offend you, and if I did - please accept my apologies.

And you just might be right here - maybe I am setting myself up for disappointment - because I'm still sticking to my self-righteous opinion that he SHOULD have thought enough about me and my feelings to pick up the phone for a one sentence "how are you doing".

Since that didn't happen - I am disappointed. And I'm still sticking to my self-righteous opnion that I was not expecting too much when I hoped for that phone call or other gesture of care.....

I believe I understand. However, it appears to me that you are equating his lack of a proper action with not caring.

I don't believe you can make that assumption. You may be right. You may be wrong.

Can I encourage you to ask him how you can tell he really cares.

As I and others have said, he may really care, yet express it differently.

If you really love him, is it worth the time to really understand him. You just may find out he cares far more deeply than you ever thought because you didn't understand his language.

Again, this doesn't mean your way is wrong or that you can't ask for him to learn your language.

Thanks - and you're right, I am equating his lack of a satisfactory (to me) action with not caring. I'm hoping that I'm proven wrong.

I will talk to him soon about this, and then yes, it will be up to me to decide if I can live with his ways of expressing emotions.

I'm just very hurt right now, so I'm not all too excited about picking up the phone to discuss it today.

An update - just FYI - the day after my dog crisis, I walked to the mailbox in tears for some alone time, and to put two birthday cards in the mail to him (his birthday was yesterday). I got to work yesterday morning, and I got an email (still no phone call) thanking me for the birthday cards - and he went on to tell me that he was having dinner with his two daughters and how excited he was to see them on his birthday. The email ended with no "how are you" - or "hope all is well" - absolutely nothing.....just all about HIM. So, I'm still disappointed. Not mad - but very, very disappointed.

Laura,

I do hope you talk to your BF soon as all this is still fresh.I'm not going to even acknowledge EE anymore (ignore user option) as we do not and have not seen eye to eye and I don't agree with his way of thinking and I know he's talking about me as he picks out words I use in my responses ( sorry minor tj there).

There is nothing wrong with the word should.It's not a four letter word and I'm talking about what you went through,not all the worlds issues.There are expectations out there that we deserve,anyone deserves.And the fact that someone would suggest that they shouldn't show comfort to a loved one or one that they cared about just because they felt they shouldn't ,sounds like spite to me."I don't feel like it so I won't do it" I have had that conversation before here.

Just keep an open mind ok? And don't second guess yourself.You weren't wrong to deserve some compassion.Yes maybe your BF expresses his love in a different way but really,no call whatsoever for all those things you went through? We're not talking specific sexual needs or desires.Would you not comfort your child if ill or scared? Would you not care for and comfort a sick or depressed parent or spouse? Would you not send flowers or a card,for example, to someone close to you that endured a death in their life? Common courtesy and care.

It's just infuriating to think that someone is arguing about whether or not to give some comfort and care to a BF/GF/SO in difficult times.I would never be with someone like that if they had to think about it first.

And by the way,don't sell yourself short. .

If I were in your shoes,I would feel this way too.You are not alone.In fact,it was times like these,where my ex didn't seem to care about me even if I got hurt,that things between us went down hill real fast.

Thanks AB - you're right. This was a HUGE learning experience for me re: the BF. I found myself comparing him to my ex-h (bad thing to do, I'm totally aware)who also was the King of Denial of any type of emotion - my ex-h did not show compassion ever - I was always alone in my marriage when I needed a strong shoulder to lean on. I will not endure another relationship like that.

I did not break a nail and expect my BF to be upset about it - I lost a cherished family member. I'm not over-reacting (convincing myself). Believe it or not, the dog dying was the most important of the three life events (the biopsy and surgery) to me, as he knows how important my animals are to me, so his lack of compassion is both puzzling and infuriating to me. Infuriating because I thought I knew this man, he's the type of person that would come running and drop everything for a friend in need - and was (I thought) a giving person - he coaches youth football, he's very active in church ministries, very deep in his faith, and is one of the BEST fathers I've met. Whether I'm right or wrong here, his silence regarding a time of MY trouble is sending me a BIG signal that I'm just not as important.......I have been looking back on things this last week, and I remember when a church friend of his father died (not too long ago). My BF was the FIRST one at the funeral home, and sat with his buddy the ENTIRE day of the wake - didn't leave his side. Then, the day of the funeral, my BF went to work early in the AM, drove over 50 miles during his lunch break do get to the church service, and then drove another 50 miles back to work afterwards. At the time, I thought to myself that my BF was a wonderful, caring person to think so much of his buddy at his time of need. Hmmmmm, and I'm asking too much in expecting maybe a little hug? I don't think so!!

I will talk about this with my BF - but apparently we are playing a little "cat and mouse" game - I still haven't heard from him after his "warm" email greeting on his birthday. So, who knows - pride might just very well be the nail in the coffin of this relationship.....

Perhaps you will or will not read this, but someone will.

I wasn't talking about you, but was talking about the attitude that one way is better than another.

I want to make it clear that I have never said that what you want is not a valid need.

I do believe that it may be an unmet expectation with this man,

So I would like to ask that you consider the value of advice that seems to twist the words that I've used to mean something that they do not mean at all.

But no one has said a person shouldn't express care, concern or compassion.

I certainly did not say those words. I said it may not be natural for him to express this in YOUR language, but have never said that a person shouldn't express those things.

I ask that you read carefully and not fill in things I've not said.

I think this is ironic. Saying that you won't read what I have to say because we don't see eye to eye, but then encouraging her to keep an open mind.

Or am I the only one who sees this irony?


I too encourage open minds, and reading all the words and not filling in meanings that are not there. Either from me or your BF.

Best Wishes.

Ah, come on, isn't it a little silly to become "infuriated" just because a fellow poster refuses to be a cheerleader with the "the BF is such a jerk!" group, and simply asks the original poster to consider that perhaps her BF is not a jerk, but just different? Sure, she may decide that the difference is enough for her to break up with him, but all that EE is saying is that they might want to talk about it, and eliminate making too many [censored]-u-mptions... What's the worst that can happen?

And instead, here we have two adults who have dated for a year and a half, and are now playing the "silence" game. I think that an honest conversation would be much more beneficial - it may lead to the same result, but at least it would be handled maturely.

AGG

THTB,

I think that we struggle with men because we want men to be like us. And they are not. They just don't think like we do - I grew up with all brothers and I'm still amazed at how the male brain works (or sometimes doesn't work.) The struggle would end if we could learn to see our differences as challenges to our own personalities.

Your boyfriend may be an insensitive clod but until you talk about it, you'll never know. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Then, whether or not you decide to stay or go, you won't need to second guess your decision.

AGG,

I am not going to address EE anymore as I said.I can't see what he's written anyway with the ignore user option on.Of all the years I have been here,it's the first time I have ever used that option.He just rubs me the wrong way,maybe he reminds me of my ex.Maybe infuriated was a bit strong, mad might be a better term or,very upset. So I prefer not to read what he has to say.He can do the same to me if he wants.

Nowhere did I say or suggest the BF was a jerk.If you want to call the BF's lack of empathy/care/ love for what laura went through being different,fine.But I don't agree with that.If different means she doesn't get a hug,a call or any sympathy for what she went through,then if I were her,I would take that difference and end the relationship if that's how he handles things like that.



I do agree with this and like I mentioned,I hope she will talk to him sooner rather than later.I think it's best to address concerns in a relationship right away.She doesn't know how he really feels about her.In my view,it could be two options: he just doesn't have the compassion ( or skills) for her when she needs it at trying times or he's not into the relationship as much anymore so doesn't feel connected enough to show her a little sympathy.Maybe it's something entirely different.Until she talks to him,we won't know.

Laura,

You don't need to overreact,just explain how you feel to him and discuss what has happened.Until you do and you continue to stay clear of eachother,you won't know what's going through his mind.

Edited to add: I have been thinking about the oft mentioned idea that men and women think/act differently.It kind of reminds me of other phrases used here.But,as much as that may be true in certain areas,I think about my Dad,Uncles, and other boyfriends and guy friends of the past as well as my ex *in our better times and they all had a comforting word,hug,card or ear leant to listen when I went through scary/painful times.Not once do I recall having to talk about it first to see if they were OK with supporting me.They were there to listen,offer support,call or help out in anyway.It came natural because they cared about me as I did for them.

So it's just my gut feeling that if a man,or woman for that matter,does not show affection or compassion for a SO when times are tough,there's something wrong.jmo

I do agree with this and like I mentioned,I hope she will talk to him sooner rather than later.I think it's best to address concerns in a relationship right away.She doesn't know how he really feels about her.In my view,it could be two options: he just doesn't have the compassion ( or skills) for her when she needs it at trying times or he's not into the relationship as much anymore so doesn't feel connected enough to show her a little sympathy.Maybe it's something entirely different.Until she talks to him,we won't know.

/quote]

We will all find out shortly. I stewed and stewed, and finally picked up the phone - apparently I was going to have to make the first move. OK, so I did it. The conversation was cordial, and he invited me to some friends house for football. I countered that I would prefer if he'd come here to watch the game - so that we could catch up and talk....

Formulating my words here carefully, and we'll see what the outcome shall be. During this last week, I did have the opportunity to think about what I do and don't want in a relationship, and I've figured out that I am not asking for the moon - so I feel pretty darn good and confident about the impending conversation.

Thanks all - I'll keep you posted.
Laura

Laura,

Stewing and stewing is a mistake.

That's my opinion. If you want your relationship to work, you MUST communicate your feelings - and for best effect, you should do so promptly. You have been avoiding the conflict. Now, after stewing, you are really angry (perhaps). If you had told him immediately (the first time this happened), it is quite likely that you would have gotten what you wanted the second time. But you have set up a "secret test" (there was a long thread about this here somewhere - I think on GQII). Almost nobody will pass a "secret test".

And... expecting somebody to call when you want to talk is just plain silly.

Your phone can dial out, can it not? If you want or need to talk to somebody, CALL HIM.

I appologize if the tone of my post seens hostile. I'm not really. <sigh>

From a man's point of view, it's just so frustrating dealing with somebody who won't tell you what they want, resents it when you don't give it to them, and expect you to call when they are the one who wants to talk.

grumbling as I go...

btw. I would definately have called if I were dating somebody (even for a couple of weeks) and they were going through any of these things.

-AD

I did call - I realized that stewing and stewing was going to get me nowhere, so I did pick up the phone....his phone dails out also - but apparently it mattered a bit more to me than it did to him....

Laura -- there you are making another assumption!
He may not even realize you are having this big conflict!

He may sense that you're moody or unhappy...but probably has no clue of the depth of your disappointment.
Just talk to him!

Laura, you would do well to refresh yourself on Harley's concepts on Disrespectful Judgements. This entire thread is full of them.

While you have every right (and reason) to be unhappy with your BF, you are making assumptions and judgements left and right, most of them negative.

I suspect (assume?) that he may be sensing your anger, but since you are not telling him what is bothering you (since you seem to believe that anyone should know what it is), he may be doing the same thing that most of us would do under the circumstances - focus on happier things in life and wait till the clouds clear and you will tell him what's on your mind.

Your stewing is not going to get you anywhere but to be single again. If that is what you want, why not just do it? If not, then why not try to get back to the Basic Concepts?

AGG

Man - this is one painful spanking!

I DID realize all on my own (see post above) that stewing was NOT going to get me anywhere - and I did make the initial phone call....

It's not meant to be a spanking - you asked for OBJECTIVE opinions in your title, not simply validating and cheerleading... Obviously some of them don't agree with your perspective, but believe me, it's meant to help you see other points of view, not to spank you.

You are right, you did make the phone call - but your anger, frustration, and ATTITUDE show through very clearly in your posts, and, I bet, are also very visible to your BF.

AGG

This situation reminds me of one my best friend was in.

She was VERY disappointed in some of her boyfriends actions.
When they went out, she expected a certain amount of consideration.

If her drink was low - she expected him to replace it, or at least ask if she'd like another. If he purchased another for himself without noticing her needs -- she got mad. Even if he wasn't anywhere near her.
When deciding on a restaurant, he was responsible if the menu wasn't to her liking (very fussy eater...)
If he didn't ask her to an event far enough in advance...
If he didn't recognize her kids birthdays...

None of these are "unreasonable". But he was constantly failing her tests. But if she would EVER have simply TOLD him how to handle those situations, this guy would NEVER have done the wrong thing again!
These things just didn't come naturally to him.

When the first event came by -- if she would have told him she was disappointed -- he could have done better the next time. He just didn't know. And she never said anything. So the next time, he did the same thing.

Eventually she was so angry (inside) and resentful that she was miserable to be around. He picked up all her vibes -- but had no idea what had gone wrong. He just figured she was **tchy. So he stopped calling.

And that was the end.

He is still in a big circle of our friends. But she is withdrawn. And offended that everyone isn't shunning him for his insensitive treatment of her.

nevermind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hello TrulyHappyToBe,

I haven't posted to you before as I'm generally over at GQII.

I can very much sympathise with your situation as I've been in the same boat (demanding partner(s), no kids, love my pets <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I can't believe your BF doesn't think you are important.
It could be that he thinks you'd rather be alone when you are going through a bad time.
Just a thought - is it possible that HE thinks you don't WANT him around?
Please ask him gently.
That's really the only way to find out what his real motivation is behind his silence.
He might think he's hurt you somehow, not sure how, and is as afraid as you are to pick up the phone.
From the way you describe him he hardly sounds like an insensitive person.

I think you need to find out - putting your own emotional wiring (hurt from the past) aside as much as possible - what's really going on.

My experience is that we tend to choose the same sort of partners, repeating the same sort of problems, until we learn from that and change ourselves.
Most of our behavior stems from what we learned from our parents - and it's hard, but not impossible, to overcome any conditionings that we still carry with us because of problems there.
So I think a wonderful opportunity presents itself here to learn - how to deal with your own reactions in this situation.

Just my 2cents.
I hope you can have a good talk with your BF.

Brownhair (and everyone else) - you are all 100% correct that this situation is perfect for a lesson in communication - I couldn't agree more, and I welcomed the opportunity to do so as soon as possible. That's why I picked up the phone to initate contact with him, as it really was bugging me - and I understand that building resentments is no way to handle things. While I acknowledge that I'm in no way perfect in matters of the heart (unsuccessful marriage and all) I really am trying in my "post-divorce" dating life to learn......

Well, guess what all - I didn't get the opportunity to discuss these emotional needs of mine with him after all. I had posted that he agreed to come over on Sunday night to watch football. He told me that he would call me in a couple of hours because he had to make a few phone calls. The day before, he and some other youth football coaches had made "sort of" plans (his words, not mine) to meet at the local pub to watch the prime time game on Sunday evening. He was going to call these fellow coaches to tell them he wouldn't be meeting them. Well, a few hours later, he did call - from his cell phone - on his way to the pub to meet up with his coach buddies. He did extend an invitation to me to join them at the pub - but I declined. I mentioned that I was looking forward to spending some time with him alone, since we hadn't seen each other in a while, and he told me (in his words, not mine) that he had "promised them yesterday that they'd all meet for beers and football". It's safe to say that he had no intention to initiate contact with me prior to me calling him first, and I hope(?) I'm not jumping to incorrect conclusions - as he had his entire weekend planned out prior to my call, and seeing me was not in them.

So, one does not need to be a rocket scientist here to see in black and white that even AFTER I expressed an interest in seeing him - he didn't choose me. He chose a casual evening with his buddies.

I haven't heard from him since.

Again, I'm not perfect, but I'm not an idiot either. Would you all agree that this SCREAMS that I'm not high on his list??? Or, am I jumping to unfair judgements again (she says tongue-in-cheek)?

I'm thinking that I'm not that important to him.....

Heartbroken (for now) but life does go on.....

Laura

I get it. In my defense, I can describe myself as a pretty independent lady, I can get my own drinks - and pick my own restaurants. I do appreciate the story though, and I understand the spirit in which it was posted. I can honestly say that in the grand scheme of things, I am really not "needy" for the most part. I discovered through these life events that I guess I DO need a certain amount of emotional support. Some might say that I made a huge mistake in "expecting" compassion and support during such stressful times in my life, but I respectfully disagree. I think it should just come naturally. I cannot imagine having the discussion "you know what honey, when things get tough in life, I really am the type who would really enjoy a warm hug and a shoulder to lean on".

Hi Truly,

I still think you should have that talk..
Are you guys seeing each other every weekend?
Or is it pretty normal that he (and you) go your own way even on a weekend ?

Hi Laura,

I'm sorry things are going the way they are.It must be confusing as you seemed to have a good deal of regard for your BF in other areas.

I'm thinking that he is drawing away for some reason.You have been going out for over a year.Maybe you could,again
(gulp) ask to meet alone to talk about where things are headed and that you want to know how he really feels about the relationship? This is one of those opportunities to find out why things aren't going well,so as not to maybe make a similar mistake again or to find out how this guy is thinking.The altenative is to let the relationship evaporate and never know what really happened.I understand if you don't feel comfortable asking.Maybe you can muster up the strength.

I don't know.It's just that after reading here for a few years now,this type of scenario seems to show a disinterest in the relationship so one person usually withdraws,for whatever reason.He did invite you to come along but to me it's like after the fact,after he already told you he was going to tell them he wasn't going.Mixed messages?

Brownhair -

I too hope that eventually we will have a talk. Our paths will cross - we do run in the same social, church and neighborhood circles.

We would normally see each other only on weekends - as both of us are pretty busy during the week. And yes, there have been some weekends when we wouldn't see each other at all - due to conflicting schedules. The frequency in which we saw each other was just fine for me - and it still is. Would it be nice of we could fit more time together in? Yes, but it's not mandatory.

So, under normal circumstances, it wouldn't be unusual for us not to see each other for a few weeks, however, we DID at least catch up on the phone every few days. I am absolutely stumped as to why ever since the day I put my dog down, he seems to have "disappeared" from my life. Just the week prior to this "situation" - I had a nice birthday/engagement dinner with my BF, his daughter and his daughter's new fiance - all was right with the world.....

And, I'm equally stumped that even after I called, invited him out, and expressed my desire to see him that he still avoided me.

Something is not right - but until I have a chance to talk with him, we'll never know. I've reached out to him - what else can I possibly do???

Yes, it is most certainly confusing as all he**. And yes, I did (and still do) think highly of BF in other areas - he's a wonderful father, hard worker, sincere friend, community volunteer, etc. I had posted a long time ago that he was the "dorky guy" that I got fixed up with who turned into a "prince" in my eyes, and all was OK.

I can't for the life of me figure this situation out - and quite frankly, I'm spending way too much time thinking about this over the last two weeks, and that in itself is making me mad at myself - I'm starting to feel insecure - I'm doing the old reliable questioning of myself, i.e. what did I do wrong here? What should I do/say next? What should I,I,I ad nauseum.....And yes, you are right on - he did invite me to the pub to join he and his friends, but I instantly had the feeling in my gut that this was an after the fact invitation. Mixed messages? Yup.

I do so appreciate your input - it's been helpful. I'm not quite sure what will happen next....

He sounds like a conflict-avoider.

I suspect (an assumption on my part) that he may have picked up on your displeasure.

How did you react when he told you he was on his way to the pub? I'm guessing he knows he made the wrong choice and is trying to avoid dealing with it -- maybe you'll forget about it.

I've dated several men who think its better to "wait it out." When they know they've done something to make me unhappy or mad -- they will deliberately avoid me (thinking I will calm down or forget about it)
HA! that only makes me madder -- avoiding me!!

I put on my best happy voice and told him that we could get together some other time.....I voiced NO displeasure at all, purposely, so as not to give him an excuse not to call. Now, when I hung up the phone, I called him a few choice names, but that's another story - LOL! Also, it's most certainly not a good idea to try and have these big relationship conversations on the phone, especially when he's on his way to a good 'ole boy night of sports and beer with his buddies.....

I guess the ball's in his court.....

Truly,

since you asked for insight and objective opinions..
I still can't find any indication - objectively - that would lead me to think he's avoiding you.
He might really not have a clue.
You sound cheerful whenever you have contact with him - so how is he to know?

And yes - he might be a conflict avoider and whatever else.
Then again, it could also be a big misunderstanding and "different wiring" stuff.
I really couldn't tell from your account.

Please have your talk with him and don't get all worked up about it beforehand !

A little story...
I hope it'll make you smile.

A guy is driving in his car late one evening when one of his tires gets a flat.
When he realizes he doesn’t have a jack, he gets really upset.
In the distance, there is light at a farmhouse and the man decides to walk over there.
It’s quite a long distance to walk.
“Why do these things always happen to me?” he grumbles.
The road isn’t really good and his shoes and feet start to get all muddy and wet.
“That farmer should take better care of his roads, look at this mess,” the man grumbles.
A bit further down the road, the man begins to wonder if anyone is home at the farm.
“Sometimes people just leave on the light.. to scare of burglars. Imagine me walking all this distance just to be in front of a closed door! Why do people have to be so paranoid?”
Then it begins to rain.
“You’ll see.. if that farmer is home at all.. he’ll just look at how wet and grubby I look and shut the door in my face. But it’s HIS fault ! Why does he have to live so far from the road?”
Still a bit further down the road, he can now see the farm more clearly, but he is getting more and more frustrated as his feet start to hurt now.
“You’ll see.. he probably doesn’t even have a jack. He’ll look at me with a stupid grin and tell me sorry, no jack, no phone here either, can’t help you Mista!” Or maybe he won’t open the door to strangers. Damn farmers! Always so mistrusting!”
All worked up like that he finally reaches the door and rings the bell.
The farmer opens up the door, but before he can say anything, the man shouts:
“Forget about it! I don’t need your stupid jack!” turning around and walking back to his car.

No it isn't, it's in yours THTB......

You have concerns, legitimate ones, that you should address. Don't let it go on any longer b/c you continue to wonder and assume and the resentment is going to continue to build as brownhair's story points out.

No good could come from you waiting on him to respond. You reached out, yes, so do so again, b/c I think you've entered the land of "playing games".

Your feelings are your feelings and they are valid. Address them w/ him. TALK to your boyfriend and be specific and let him know that you NEED to talk......

JMHO

Yes brownhair - that DID make me smile.......and I can readily admit that I could possibly be making a mountain out of a molehill here - time will tell...

I appreciate you taking the time to read my saga and post your insight - I really do....

You're welcome, Truly.
Let us know what happens my dear !

OK friends - thought I'd update you on the "situation" I've been having here.

Spoke to BF on Wednesday, I invited him to a neighbor's chili cook-off on Saturday (he knows my neighbors). He did accept, albiet with a "I'll try to come after the football games". Remember, he's a youth football coach, and this year, like last year, the world stands still when it's football season. I respect that, believe it or not, because he is a man who is committed to his interests. Sometimes I think that he might take it to the extreme (after all, it's 13 year old boys, not the NFL) - I never nag or never have had a problem with the time he spends on his football commitment. Enough said.

So, he did come after the game. He was genuinely happy to see me, and I him. There was a little initial ackwardness, but within a few minutes, the conversation flowed. We had a nice time mingling with friends.

We left and I just live across the street from where the party was held. He walked me home, and I invited him in for a nightcap, and asked if we could talk a bit. We did.

I tried sooooo hard not to be accusatory, and I think I succeeded. I did tell him that I felt hurt and discouraged about how we both reacted to the dog crisis - didn't say much more than that.

At first, he seemed surprised - but then as the conversation went on a bit more, he did admit that his best relationship skill is NOT communication - as he's pretty much done what he wants, when he wants, with who he wants, for his entire marriage, and his first relationships after his divorce. He was single for over a year before he met me, so he was the first to admit that sometimes he can be selfish. He also admitted that he doesn't want to be selfish and doesn't do it on purpose - but that at age 49, he's finding it a challenge to think of others feelings ahead of his own.

I also admitted that I'm not the best at communication, and that it's a work in progress for me. I also admitted that I too am used to having things my way - and that since i've been divorced for over 2 1/2 years now, and pretty much have taken care of myself just fine, I find myself feeling sometimes uncomfortable "needing" anything from anyone.

So, we ended with apologies on both sides, and promises to try to be a little bit more attentive. I promised to try not to hold resentments in, and to call him on things as they happen. He said that he needs to be hit on the side of the head with a frying pan sometimes to get his attention - and I promised to accomodate him in the future - LOL!

Where will this go from here? Who knows. It was nice to see him again - and it was nice to get it all out in the open.....whether or not this relationship is "forever" or not, it's been a great growing experience for me - at the very least, I get to spend time with a wonderful person!

Thanks all....
Laura

Hi Laura,

I'm glad to hear you finally got around to "lighten your heart" about this, so to speak.

He may not be Mr Right4U, but if he makes you feel good and helps you communicate.. that's excellent.

It's funny, from how you have described him I wouldn't think he's selfish or putting his own feelings ahead of those from others.
This might simply be a case of clashing EN's / Love Languages.
Like if your top EN would be companionship, like it's with me, I could never have an R (much less a M) with this man, because his EN's are obviously very different.
That doesn't mean he's not a good guy..
Or that I'm needy...
Just different EN's.

Might be interesting to find out about his EN's and yours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.