Hey everyone,
first time posting here, been following radio show now for a month and following the dr harley's program since discovering my fiance of 9 years was having an affair the past 3 years and my youngest daughter might not be mine. She has moved out while we wait for the results of dna test. I believe she is living with the other guy but is lieing about it, says she with a friend. I've been following plan a so far & since she moved out we have stopped fighting & our communication has been much better. So hard to know what to believe when she tells me anything. have caught her in so many lies. Says she wants to be with me no matter what the outcome of results but still staying away. I think she doesn't know what she wants. this is just a taste I will give more info as we progress on here.

Look forward to all the good advice
Thanks, ***EDIT***

Fiance = Not an affair

What can we do for you?

***EDIT*** I'm going to notify the mods to move this thread over to Dating & Relationships. You're not married, therefore by definition there is no infidelity. Your girlfriend is free to play the field, and she may well be doing just that. You aren't married. You're dating. I'm sorry.

Welcome to MB.

Why haven't you married her?

Yes, that's exactly what I was wondering.

When the romantic love is there consistently, people typically feel like they want to be together forever.

According to Dr. Harley, if a relationship hasn't progressed toward marriage in about two years, it will typically (but not always) decline from that point. i.e., the love bank withdrawals will increase, the deposits will decrease, the couple will fall out of love, and things will get rocky.

It sounds like they got pretty rocky here. If the two of you did not have a child together, my suggestion would be that you go ahead and separate and start planning a new life without her. But because there is a child, the best outcome would be for the other relationship to end, and the two of you two fall in love and get married.

What is your desired outcome?

Sorry for putting original post in wrong forum still learning. We both never but alot of pressure on getting married, we have fully done everything like a married couple without the papers. We have been dealing with major health issues in her life for the whole 10 years together. We have 4 kids. I have heard dr harley talk about when not married your some what free to rome. So does this mean according to this program that someone in my shoes just has to except that she is cheating or is there a seperate plan that I have missed? If we can get through this I would like to marry her. My view on marriage has changed since following marriage builders

Have you read this?
Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?

Also this.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

**EDIT**

He's been cheated on, bottom line.

Sorry, but there is a HUGE difference between being married and not being married. The reasons he did not get married are very important in helping him solve his issues. Please don't come here and preach to others who are in the trenches doing the heavy lifting when you ARE NOT.

Respectfully disagree.

That's like a patient coming to doctor's office, saying "I've got cancer." And the doctor's reply is "Let's look at the reasons you chose to start smoking 25 years ago..."

Can't change his past...just needs assistance / guidance on how to move forward.

Apparently my comments are not in line with what the moderators believe is proper conduct, hence the "**EDIT**"

Sorry, but you are dead wrong. That's like the patient coming into the office and saying he has cancer when he really has heart disease. The treatment for one is not the treatment for the other. You don't understand the underlying dynamics. The dynamics of his situation are radically different because he is not married.

When callers in this same situation call up Dr Harley on the radio why do you think his first question is "why didn't you get married?" Do you know why that is such an important question?

You are chastising posters for asking him the SAME QUESTION that Dr Harley asks callers in the same situation. You don't understand the difference and as such, are disrupting this thread by injecting your own personal philosophy. That is not helpful to this guy.

Canuck, your relationship is going to have to change if you want to stay together.
Since you are not married, but have been living together, you are both Renters. Technically, she is a free agent and it is not surprising that she would go out and find someone else to meet her needs.

That's what Renters do.

If you want to stay together, you are going to have to become Buyers.

Have you read the articles posted above? I also suggest you get the book "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders." If you are interested in marrying this girl and becoming Buyers, I suggest the book "I Promise You," in preparation for marriage.

You have 4 very good reasons to stay together -- your kids. It is good that she moved out. Start this relationship over. Start dating her, then marry her.

Through sheer coincidence, I happened to hear this radio segment from Dr. Harley this morning, in which he makes this comment:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03267

When a couple makes the decision to live together and to not marry, and especially so when they decide to have kids together and still to not marry, they are making as much of a public statement, and a decision, as is the decision to marry.

By saying "we don't need the piece of paper", they are saying that they do not respect or recognise the social (and often religious) obligations and benefits that are bound up in the commitment of marriage. They are saying that they don't need the public, legal (and Godly, if appropriate) sanctioning of their relationship. They are saying that they reject the state's regulation and validation of, and even interference in, their private relationship. They are rejecting the legal obligations. They are rejecting the notion of the contract that can only be undone by use of the law, as in divorce, or by death. They are rejecting the entire notion of public commitment.

They are reserving the right to walk away from the relationship whenever they want to, without the social and legal (and religious) difficulties that go along with abandoning a marriage. In not wanting the "piece of paper", they do not want what marriage means. That dynamic makes a living together arrangement very different from a marriage, and since Dr Harley has devised his plans for marriage, with all its commitments and obligations, they are not expected to work in cohabitations. There is no obligation in cohabitation. It's set up to be an arrangement that the couple will stick to for as long as it makes them happy, and the expectation is that when it ceases to make one or both happy, they can walk away with no ties. They can and will still be parents to their children, but they kept their freedom as unmarried people for a reason.

That doesn't mean it isn't painful to be cheated on, and that it won't be painful for those children to stop living full-time with both parents, but the affairs advice wasn't created with living-together, walk-away relationships as the model. A marriage is a very different entity from a cohabitation arrangement, as this poster has himself come to see.

I'm rather surprised that you don't see it that way yourself, given that you made the commitment of marriage.

Exactly. It also doesn't mean that the poster can't turn this around somehow, but the advice we will give for that needs to be different, and needs to take into account pieces of information like "Why did you decide not to get married?"

Not to beat a dead horse but this is also a 'fiance of 9 years', not a 'girlfriend of 9 years'. It seems our OP has proposed marriage to her but for some reason, 9 years later, nothing has come of that. so, while our OP can tell us that it is "just a piece of paper", I'm curious to know why bother getting engaged. Assuming he proposed (which may be wrong), one wonders if she actually had her heart in this anyways (renter-freeloader mentality).

Of course he's hurt. He has been a father to a 3 year old that he doesn't know is biologically his or not, I cannot imagine the cruelty of that. But it gives us insight into how this woman has viewed this the whole time....?

They're both Renters. To save this, they need to become Buyers.

It's amazing that we can understand this man's dynamics and give advice after reading just a few paragraphs.

Yes I wish them the best of luck for those 4 babies but I think he should also consider coaching here because this situation is very bad.

Yes, it is. When you've read what Dr. Harley says about such circumstances, it's not difficult at all to know what needs to be done.

What else are we supposed to do except offer advice (based on MB principles) after a few paragraphs? Isn't that the whole point this place?

What matters is an understanding of the dynamics of cohabitation situations. We should give MARRIAGE BUILDERS advice based on THAT dynamic.

ARe you familiar with Dr Harley's work on cohabitation?

Here are some more of Dr. Harley's articles on this.
Living Together Before Marriage #1
Living Together Before Marriage #2

Another one.
Fear of Marriage

I am not familiar with dr. harley's work on cohabitation. But I am all too familiar with cheating. Surely you remember my WW and her many other men? Well, those are just the ones that I know of. I am sure others will disagree with me on this point, but cheating is cheating is cheating. I don't care if it's dating, engaged, married, etc. I will not tolerate cheating in my life. My wife knows cheating is a deal-breaker for me, no questions asked. And I know if I ever physically strike her, I'm done. That's her deal-breaker.

And yes, I spent several hours on the phone with dr. harley as he tried to convince me to work on my marriage, to give the ExWW another chance. I thought long and hard about my life, our family, our situation, what steps i took and could take to "save" our marriage. My marriage to ExWW was just too broken to be repaired. I served her divorce papers.

For some, Plan D is the best option. For me it definitely was the best choice. Was it tough, yes. Did it effect my kids, yes. On the positive side, my daughters have a strong father who will not be a doormat, stands up for himself, role models a great marriage with his wife, continues to work with their Mother (ExWW) to provide the best possible life for them. They have a mother who admitted her mistakes, moved on, continues to be a big part of their lives, and is now engaged to a good man who treats our DD's well. My daughters have a wonderful step mom who treats their dad with care and respect.

You make a great point, Mel, this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS web site. But in my case, the roof was blown off, the walls destroyed, and the foundation of my marriage was irreparable. I chose to end that marriage and move on. I was fortunate to find someone to build a marriage with, and i am happy! Period. End of sentence.

I have not frequented this site much in the past few years. There are a number of reasons for my absence, some of which i'm sure you will not want to hear. The bottom line is this, our confused Canadian has a choice to make -- continue in current relationship, or move on. The choice is his. LG, out.

But .... there is no marriage here. What does all that have to do with this situation?

Dr. Harley deals with cohabitation differently than he does with marriage. That plan was laid out for Canuck so he can make his decision. So what are you so twisted out of joint about, since you admit you don't have a clue what Dr. Harley says about it?

Let me fix this for you:


What business do you have posting to help people if you don't know how Dr. Harley helps people in that particular situation? Misguided advice can be completely dangerous. Why not hold back and get educated, and accept help when people like MelodyLane point out that there are holes in your knowledge? This is not a site for shared ignorance.

**edit**

Question for you then...what makes your "advice" "guided"?

Because I am familiar with Dr. Harley's work on cohabitation.

Yes, that is exactly how I feel when I see people offering their own dangerous opinions here at Marriage Builders instead of Marriage Builders' expert advice as given by Dr. Harley. It's dangerous and it can lead to some serious misery for people.

We are not playing with paper dolls, here.

Anybody can get educated with how Dr. Harley handles such situations by sitting in class with him regularly, for free:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

I cannot fathom why some people who refuse to do so actually want to be allowed to come in and mix their own opinions with Dr. Harley's.

**edit**

And what opinion did I offer? I simply stated that the original poster was cheated on...and the peeps here chastised me for saying it was "adultery," because by dr. harley's definition, only married people can commit adultery.

LG, this is a bit obstinate now.

Nobody here is telling this man that this shouldn't be extremely painful or that there is absolutely no way to help this broken family (4 children = still a family, despite no marriage).

They are trying to help our OP understand that Dr. Harley views cohabitation and marriage differently - and a part of that (a HUGE part of that) is that it brings in additional bad habits/stressors/attitudes ("renters" vs "buyers") into it.

If a couple has been engaged for 9 YEARS, do you not consider that perhaps they are both renters and she was just coasting along until she found a 'better' prospect?? Yes, we both know that this other loser is nothing special but do you see how the renter mentality may contribute to understanding what has happened??

LG, I was 6 months pregnant when I got married. It's kind of embarassing, isn't it? Our cohabitation does not mean our marriage will end in failure. It does mean that we brought in some bad habits/behaviours that will require more work. See the difference?

It's not just Dr. Harley's opinion, it is a legal definition as well (and religious, for those who are, although i am not). If this couple goes to court over child custody, the judge will not consider this adultery.

**edit**

**edit**

No, you chastised other posters on how they posted.

Unfortunately that post has been **EDITED**.

I believe my post was, "please stop beating him up..." or something along those lines...

Actually, we know quite a bit. YOU don't know much, because as you have said yourself, you don't have a clue what Dr. Harley says about cohabitation nor how Dr. Harley would advise a couple cohabiting.

You don't have a clue, yet you choose to try to educate those of us who do know.

See, this is where you are being obstinate. You've been told numerous times that Marriage Builders specifically addresses cohabitation over and over and how a variety of principles behind it can contribute to problems later down the road (the renter's mentality being one of those problems).

You, on the other hand, are insisting that this doesn't matter. That their cohabitation is irrelevent to solving the problem. You are saying that two renters are the same as two buyers. Dr. Harley would disagree with you, if you actually read any of those materials.

**edit**

Moderator's note: do not post again until you have familiarized yourself with Dr Harley's principles.

It was harsher than that. And it was criticizing others on how they post. Nobody beat up anybody except you. We were busy trying to help him. YOU are being a distraction to that.

They are not "beating him up".

They are not saying "haha well you got what you deserved for not marrying her".

They are saying WHY DID YOU NOT GET MARRIED ... because.... (we don't value marriage)(she wasn't sure that I was the right guy for her)(we decided later on that it didn't mean anything to us)(we just stopped thinking about)(we had a few hiccups along the way)(she had been having an affair and was putting it on hold to see if the other guy would work out)

^
I have NO idea if any of those are accurate, but they are a variety of possibilities which may affect HOW this man should approach the situation.

But if you think cohabitation is completely irrelevent then go ahead, but again, Dr. Harley would disagree with that.

I never called myself an expert! But I've actually read the articles on cohabitation, which is apparently more than you have.

****edit***

What else are we going to do here? Exchange recipes with him?

A reminder to posters to please advise others using Marriage Builders principles. If you cannot, please refrain from posting.

Yes, it was answered. You just don't like the answer.

STOP THE BICKERING. Please contact the moderators if you have a problem with someone's post or qualifications.

Let's get back to marriage building.

Thank you for the reminder, Toujours. I am concerned that the poster hasn't posted recently. I am alarmed to have read these distracting posts that have been totally unhelpful to the poster. I hope he comes back.

Wow I'm surprised at so much negativity on here it is not what I expected. Thank you for those articles and books I will get myself caught up with dr harleys ideas on renters buyers & freeloaders. I have heard him talk about it on the radio program but I'm not up to speed yet. I will be on the program thurs june 6 & hopefully he's a little easier on me then some of you lol. I understand that we have been living differently then is expected from mb & once I understand dr harleys view on cohabitation it might help me understand my situation better.
Keep up the positve posts I need all the help I can get, thanks ***EDIT***

canucks, Dr. H is a really great guy. You'll like him.

We're a pretty passionate bunch, here on the forums, when it comes to marriage building. Although I suspect you've already noticed that, yes? Please don't let that keep you from posting.

That's great, canuck

Great that you're sticking around.

What other Dr. Harley's works can we direct you to?

Will be listening to your show.

So I was on the radio program today & it went great. It really mad me feel good to hear dr h say that we are heading in the right direction. We have spoken more today & she wants to come home and start the extrordinary precautions and start working on our relationship. We even discussed getting married in the near future aswell. I was pleasantly surprised to hear her say that she would feel much better with a clean start if we moved to possibly to a new city because this house had bad memories and it would really help the process. I'm feeling really good about myself right now and knowing i have been doing the right thing thanks to mb.

Heard your show today! I thought you got some great advice.
Have you shown her Marriage Builders yet?

Yes she started reading some material but very little. I guess you could say I'm causesly optamistic, its so hard weather to know if she is fully committed to the recovfery or still playing me along. I guess I won't fully know until she does come home and we implement the extrordinary precautiions. Which she says she is willing to do.

Prisca heard your show, too, and gave me several highlights from it. I hope you guys are headed toward happiness together.

Ask her for a list of her EPs and post them here.

I'm glad your call went well. The Harleys are fantastic.

We listened together tonight as well & she liked wbat she heard

Is she home now?

Ep's is that emotional needs ?

EPs = extraordinary precautions
ENs = emotional needs

Here you go. Extraordinary Precautions

No but she has been coming by the last 3 days and having great conversations, the best we've had in years. We are both feeling something between us again which hasn't been felt in a long while. We feel comfortable and safe in each others company which is a great feeling

Do you mean a list of EP's that she would be willing to do herself immediately ?

Yes. She needs to make a list of EPs that will prevent another affair. You also need to give your input. Post them here for review.

The number one EP should be: No contact with OM for life

Number 2: no more nights apart

Number 3: complete transparency -- access to all phones, emails, etc for life.

Example EPs:

Where's my 'like' button? Good job talking to Dr. H! He's great, isn't he?

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of canucks77
Segment #2
Segment #3

Hey everyone

It has been a while since I have been on here. My fiance and I are still seperated but have begun dating again and it has been going well. We are working on things slowly and its starting to feel good to be around each other again. I found out that my 3 year old is not mine but we are going to stay together. We are moving to another city to start fresh & she has agreed to the extrordinary precautions when we do move in together sept 1. My question today is I'm finding myself getting very emotional about my daughter when we are alone together. I haven't heard dr h talk about ways of dealing with this pain. It can become emotionally over whelming sometimes that it brings me to tears. Any help friends would be much appreciated

Sorry for your pain. Do you have any children with your fiance?
Does OM know that DD3 is his?

Yes I have 3 other kids with my fiance and yes the om knows he is the father

Do you both - or one of you - have contact with OM?