Hi, Having read the information on this great, helpful site, I am still at a bit of a loss as which way to proceed.

I have been with C (male and I am female) for 9 years as partners. I have 5 birth children (3 of which have now in their own homes, the other two being 11 and 18) and two foster children ( one profoundly disabled who is 8..... Been with us since birth and a 17 month old who we have had from birth and nursed through cancer ( now in remission and will go to adopters soon)

November I felt something wasn't right......tried to encourage conversation and was met by 'startled, frightened looking little frozen boy' (like a rabbit in headllights kind of look ). After a couple of weeks I was struggling with lack of communication ( this has always been the case concerning emotional issues with C) and had an angry outburst whereby I stated ( completely unproductively I know realise) that the kids / me would have a better relationship away from him if he wasn't prepared to talk about things. He left it 2 weeks then announced he wanted us to separate ( at some point and he had no plan). I was devastated as I thought we would be able to address any problems together and work on communication for ourselves within the busy caring roles we both provide)

He could see how genuinely upset I was and how much I did love him and want us to try and sort things out. he agreed we should try and suggested we go to a counsellor. We did in Dec and she felt C had some personal issues he neede to address. After a few weeks C told me that he had been living all his life with fear of getting aids, guilt and shame following adolescent homosexual experimentation. There had also been some adult purely physical sexual encounters with men ( none whilst he has been with me). I was surprised but not shocked and was very supportive.....he was emotionally looking not well. As far as I knew we were trying to make the relationship work between End of Nov and we were talking openly and honestly I thought. We were close, taking care of one another, spending all time together, apart from C being at work, and it seemed to be good( c was still seeing counsellor weekly).

Then, at the end of Feb I find texts on phone making it clear that he was in an emotional affair with a woman at work. After being confronted he said he wanted our relationship to end, that for him it had ended months ago and the ow was nothing to do with it.

Since then he started going off to see her ( total of 6 times) after fulfilling responsibility of kids. This was destroying me so told him he would need to move out. Practically and financially that would be hard so he agreed to stop seeing other woman ( apart from the few hours a week she supports him as a teaching assistant whilst he lectures) until we sell the house( it was on the market anyway before all this). He still texts in an obsessive manner and we get on really well dy to day in a separated way physically but he is now waiting until he can have his own place so that he can pursue that relationship.

I love the man dearly and ,believe he has had some kind of midlife emotional crisis and don't want to give up on what I believe ( having now discovered this site) could be a great relationship for us both.he says he loves me but not in the way he should.

Any advice would be so appreciated, many thanks, Sally ( in UK)

Hi Sally, welcome to Marriage Builders. Are you married?

Sally, I would let him know that if he wants to remain with you, he will need to practice complete openness and transparency with his life, and also commit to you formally, i.e., marry you. If he does not agree to this, or does not follow through, then I think you should go into Dr. Harley's Plan B to protect yourself emotionally (and physically). You can read more about that here

Two books you might want to get are Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair, and his book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. You are with a freeloader - this book will describe how Renters and Freeloaders can become Buyers by adopting what Dr. Harley calls the "Buyer's Agreement."

Melody lane, no we are not married......He said at the beginning of the relationship that he really wanted to but he has never asked. I suppose I didn't make it clear that I would have said yes and knowing what I know now it seems he is afraid of anything that may cause him any discussions about important matters.

Markos, I have seen plan B but wonder how I can put that into practice when he would want to see the kids and has even said we should go on holiday as parents with the children.
Emotionally, it is hard for me as if he is ill then I will not abandon him.

Thank you both so much for your comments....it is good to have some advice.

Sally

Plan B is not abandoning your partner. It's to protect you from the emotional harm from his affair. The emotional harm will lead to physical harm very quickly for women. That's why Dr. Harley recommends Plan B for affairs and other types of abuse. Plan B is also designed to protect your love for your partner. If you continue to stay in contact with a wayward, you will lose your love for him, making recovery very difficult, if not impossible.

In Plan B, you would let him know what it will take to recover, which will include marrying you. You would set up an intermediary to communicate about child arrangements.

Waywards want to have their cake and eat it, too. Your partner wants to keep you around for an option. Plan B removes you as his option.

Many people with children on this site have made Plan B work and can give you help. It is really relatively simple - you get a friend or family member to help with dropoffs of children so you don't have to have contact with him, and you simply don't follow any suggestions he has previously made that would violate Plan B, like taking trips together. And you aren't accepting communications from him, so you won't get any future such suggestions to mess with your head.


He is not ill. He is simply living a freeloader lifestyle - where he wants to do whatever he likes regardless of how much it hurts you, where he gets your way at your expense. Freeloader relationships are not sustainable; they have to transform into Buyer relationships for long term success. I definitely re-recommend that book: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. Here is a thread that will give you an introduction to it:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2476846#Post2476846

Why do you expect him to act married when he's not?

That's the problems with being "partners" and not married.

That exact same scenario plays out with married couples too.

LTL

I agree totally justlooking24

I would have liked to have been married and am sad that we weren't because that maybe would have given him more commitment to work things out now. However, he is still committed to being there for the children and acknowledges that 8 years ago we took the profoundly disabled newborn baby on together.

Sally, I have a disabled child too. I would prepare yourself for a reality of raising these children alone. A parent who is a freeloader in life is prone to abandon the children too, it is hard enough when you are committed. His lack of commitment is quite clear. How one finds time for this crap while you are at home taking care of the children shows he is quite happy to string along the caretaker who allows his freeloader ways. His so-called commitment means that you do the work while he plays.

Hi Sally, welcome to MB, always nice to have fellow Brits around here.

I see you would have preferred marriage, but it's never been a bottom line for you. You agreed to have children and have given him a loving family home without his ever needing to make any public, formal promises to care for you for life. He's been left free to window shop while he makes this decision, and it's never been a decision he's had to make, because you settled for less.

I know that when I was cheated on, you suddenly realise how important those public promises are. It's like proof you were happy once. He has rewritten history hasn't he? To make it appear as though he never loved you or he was never truly happy. If he'd acted out those vague promises of marriage he made with real actions he wouldn't be able to do this. It's also more acceptable for him to leave you - he looks like less of a rat to friends and family than if he had married you.

Nevertheless I'd still make sure everyone knows the truth. I see from your description that his conscience has tweaked him at times. However he's hoping to stop these twinges of guilt by creating a faux buddy parenting system with you where he can convince you and everyone else that he hasn't abandoned the family he created for a bit of strange tail.

This betrayal has nearly killed you, and if you allow yourself to become his approving sticking plaster it will finish you off entirely. Drop the kids off using an intermediary - he is a big boy and should be able to parent them using proper one-on-one time alone without needing buddyship and your tacit approval of his affair. How confusing will it be to the kids to see you approving this abandonment?

Only cheaters ever think this is a good idea.

Make it clear you will not support this decision in any way and no contact will reign until he gives you the full package - No Contact with the OW and marriage.

File for child support.

It will legally protect the minor children and give your longtime bf a dose or financial reality to add to the other financial reality of a living situation.

It sure does - there are lots of freeloaders in marriage. But if a person won't even commit, they are by definition not a Buyer. They are reserving the right to back away - refusing to take ownership.

There's lots more in the book.

Exactly! He gets his way at your expense ==> definition of a freeloader.

It doesn't look like any of the children are his. He would not owe child support if that is the case.

ETA: If none of these children are his and he has no legal responsibility for the foster children, Plan B or Plan Adios would be much easier as there would be no legal ties binding you to him.

Are you the sole foster parent or is bf a joint legal foster parent too?

Black Raven,
Yes, you are right. I have 5 birth children from a marriage of 13 years ( divorced a good many years ago).
Been with partner 9 years.....youngest birth child 11 years. Partner no children of his own and considers my youngest to be his son. Has been excellent with the children and always come home from work and spent all weekends with us etc.
8 year old foster child is profoundly disabled...... Been here since birth.....we are jointly classed as permanent foster carers to her. In uk foster carers do not have parenteral responsibility so legally we are nothing to her.
Partner has no legal responsibility towards any of the children. He is saying will have her every weekend and still run around for the 11 year old and spend lots of time with him.
Also have 17 month old foster baby since birth. She is now in remission from cancer following surgery in October......she will be moving in next few months to adopters.
I suppose up until really recently I have been thinking that partner may have been adversely affected by the stress of looking after these children and had some kind of breakdown.
I am beginning to think that this is not the case now but rather has met someone else he prefers who appears more exciting than myself.he says he feels bad about his decision but that it is something 'that is right and he has got to do'. I have asked why he would not consider us reconciling but says he doesn't feel for me what he should but still cares.
Plan B would be hard to do if he still has involvement with foster child as we would have to exchange vehicles equipment etc.

I love your Eleanor quote!

My guess is that if he goes off interested in some other woman, he's not going to try to maintain an interest in the children. None of them are his, and he has no legal obligation, so it's not likely. And being a freeloader, that is probably for the best for them!

And for the record lots of people make Plan B work with children. If he wants to maintain a relationship with the child he should be responsible and provide his own equipment, which I doubt he'll do.

Markos.......as you know I am new to here.......how do I get to chance to chat to people who have made plan B work please?

So was he ever enthusiastic about raising all these children and taking on the new foster children?

Yes, he was.......well genuinely appeared to be. Since he has been seeing a counsellor for last few months, he says all his life he has found it very difficult to say if h doesn't like something or isn't happy in a situation. He has put this down to being 'shut up' by his parents when a child and his wanting to please and get everyone to like him. Also the homosexual encounters have caused guilt and shame and he didn't think it was ok for him to be valued. He agrees to things at work ( he is lecturer) and says he will do stuff that there is no way he can do because of time constraints, then has to work out a plan to get out of it that seems feasible, but the excuses also have to be something that wasn't there in the first place he agreed to it. He then inwardly gets very cross with himself. So, now I am wondering if the whole 9 years has jut been a sham of him agreeing to stuff because it is easier than saying no and having to discuss things. He is a great listener, thoughtful in a lot of ways. Nothing to stop him just up and leaving but his conscience concerning the responsibility he feels towards the children is stopping him and he doesn't want to leave me in a financial mess. He has told the other woman he won't see her out of work, for a few weeks. He has told me he won't see her until the house is sold and he has his own place, which is going to be months away at the earliest.
It is all very confusing. Everyone who knows us was totally shocked about him wanting to leave. He says it is nothing to do with the other woman and that he discovered during counselling that he realised our relationship was over a couple of years ago.
Started texting other woman Sept......told me it was over Nov, started seeing counsellor Beginning of Dec....agreed to try and make it work with me from then until end of Feb( when I discovered the affair)......then said it was over but maintains it is nothing to do with the other woman.
He is not being honest with the other woman and makes out things are very different here than how they are.....she is questioning his commitment to her and starting to place some demands on him ( have seen messages). He is trying to please every one and consequently not pleasing anyone.

He is a conflict avoider and a people pleaser. Honestly with so many concerns on your plate you need someone with more spirit. It takes ages to figure out what someone like him is really happy with and make a plan. You need someone who can plan as they go with you.

Since he never committed to you, the children are not his and he has been unfaithful, I'd cut my losses and have no contact with him. Try a Plan B outlining the conditions for a return if you like, but I would keep your standards very high.

Plan B saved me persoanlly and I've IM'd for many people in Plan B with kids and it is better for the children. When the couple remain in contact the WS turns into nothing more than a Disney Dad for weekend fun or a tag-along guest on family trips. The kids learn that he will never do any of the grit or hard work. With Plan B he has to parent them alone and care for them properly.



This is text book Sally. Right down to 'it was over a few years ago'. They all say that. They are masters of indecision! That's because affairs have nothing to do with a bad home life, but a fun out of home life with someone else. They also know full well that they will have the same problems in a new home (especially a conflict avoider!) and they want to protect the affair from becoming real and keep it fun.

An affair is lots of fun on the side but they start to get cold feet about actually leaving home and moving in with someone who was really nothing more than a sympathetic ear.

I guarantee you that all the stuff he has to arrange before he leaves will never get done. He will keep his home life with you and his out of home life with her the same for as long as possible. It is also beyond insulting to expect you to stand there patiently waiting while he cooly arranges a new life with a new woman.

If he isn't committing to you, he needs to get out. He needs to figure out where he will stay. You never agreed to put a roof over his head and hold his hand while he plans his life with someone else and it is insulting of him to ask you.

Just think how desperate she must be to have to harangue a man into being with her. It's hardly love's young dream is it, when the conflict has started long before there is any children or bills.

Yet strangely this is rather typical for affair situations. We never see anything differnet on these forums. You'd think a person would only leave a family for a happy experience but usually they leave reluctantly, for someone quite angry and demanding. All because of some silly but satisfying conversations in which they made complaints about their spouse that they were not confident in making TO their spouse!

It's funny but Plan B is usually a strange kindness to the afairees in which they get what they think they want. The indecision of the cheater is cut through, and the decision they claimed they wanted, is made for them. The other woman also gets the prize she has nagged so hard for.

Yet they hate it. The cheater is outraged at losing free access to the family home and the loving support of two women. The other woman isn't happy either. She wanted to be chosen, not lumped with the reject.

What he wants, is to not decide, and what she wants is to triumph.

This is a disaster for you if you let that play out. No matter what money he is contributing, it isn't worth it. See a solicitor about what you are entitled to and get some formal support set up or downgrade to a lifestyle you can afford.

I'd get your Plan B preps lined up and go dark as soon as you can. Let them have each other! They'll be done in five minutes.

Hi indiegirl.....they were really useful replies....thanks. I think you are right in the conflict avoider and people pleaser assessment. Also, I think he would really prefer that I tell him to go......that would ease his conscience of him having to live with abandoning me. He wants for,this to end with everyone thinking he is a lovely chap and has done the best possible thing ( hence saying he will have the 8 year old every weekend). I don't really think he has thought that through.....just a reactionary comment as a solution for him feeling bad leaving me to care for her on my own. He has not considered how he is actually going to have a relationship of fun things with the O W when he has responsibility of an 8 year Los tube fed, profoundly disabled girl, who functions at less than a 6 month old level, who grabs and shouts!

I wouldn't be entitled to anything financially from him as I own my own house ( no mortgage) and none of the kids are his.

We went on holiday last week and he didn't tell OW incase she didn't like it.......but says he can't wait until he gets his own place so that he can see her often. He is besotted with her.....

You are selling your house? If the house is not his, I 'd tell him to get out NOW. Right now he is mooching off of you and stuffing cake in his mouth with both hands...OW, homosexual acts... Don't be a doormat, Sallyed.

I wouldn't bother involving him with the children either. He will disappoint you and them. I don't mean to be harsh but he is not your husband and he is not their father. Cut your losses and get away from this freeloader. You deserve a million times better than this!!!

Here's some good information.
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

For clarification, Plan A and Plan B are designed to deal with affairs in marriage. They are not designed for single or divorced people.

You can go no contact with him, but I wouldn't call this an "affair." or have traditional Plan B guidelines such as an IM.

I would certainly post him and the woman he is cheating with on www.cheaterville.com.

Black Raven........I am starting to feel like a doormat.......think that is because I am also starting to wake up to the reality of this situation.

To start with I really did think he was ill and having some kind of breakdown........I thought my way of being understanding and genuinely wanting to put whatever effort was needed, to resolve problems together, was the best way......he didnt say otherwise.

My behaviour must have come across as quite arrogant to him because basically he was saying he wanted out of this relationship but what he was hearing from me was ' I don't know where this desire has come from because you have always seemed, and told me, you were so happy......therefore you can't be thinking straight and I will stand by you and our relationship and we will work through this together'

I can see now that he is in this situation, and let's it continue, because he hasn't got the ability to make decisions and carry them through. I have thought that that means he really is unsure, really does love and care for me, but he is not showing that is he........he is doing whatever is easier for him.

Brain hurts.........thanks for the link......wow......that is him!

Jedi knight......we have been together for 9 years......as far as I am concerned, my commitment to him was for life......I have never even thought about not being with him and have always wanted to resolve any problems together........so emotionally for me it was the same investment as if we were married. I can see for him that may be different but then if he is a people pleaser and conflict avoider then surely this same situation would have come about. During the 9 years he has always spent time at home......being here for the family and genuinely being interested and supportive and in many ways thoughtful.

Do you mean it is easier to get positive results from plan a and b if you are married? If so.......why is that?

Thankyou all for your input.....much appreciated.

I think BR summed it up really well.

I'd add that there is no need to submit the foster child to visits just so he feels better about leaving. He isnt a parent and I doubt he is any good for her. Just kick him out and have done.


I'd read Dr H's articles on blank forgiveness and unconditional love - both are a bad idea! It's patronising not to expect people to step up to the plate and meet our standards.


Exactly. Instead of telling someone what they should be doing, maintain your own standards and tell them what your response will be. They are free to act however they wish but they must accept your consequences. Allowing his staying rent free under your roof isn't the consequence you should be giving!



Precisely.


But if he wasn't being honest, and just submitting to whatever decision was on offer, he wasn't very committed to doing this forever. Someone in rented accommodation who just accepts whatever changes the landlord makes an excellent tenant. However this is only because they are thinking: "it's not forever". A buyer gets involved and makes his own changes. He builds something he wants for life.

You can find thoughtful and interested elsewhere. Add committed and honest and proactive to the list too.



I think your commitment was true and you would have married him had he asked. Not everyone who gets married is a buyer - but if they won't even try to commit themselves legally and financially and publicly to you, what does that tell you? It tells you they want an easy exit route. SAYING you want to get married is a bit like telling a car dealer you are interested in a car but not actually buying. Will they let you use it indefinitely without any legal agreement though? Of course not.


I think someone who is clearly as smart, as compassionate and as committed as you are should be with a man who is dying to marry you and call you his wife. Not someone keeping their options open. I highly recommend reading buyers, renters and freeloaders.



Because of the commitment really. The person made a cast iron decision they wanted to be with you for life. When their A falls apart they often return to that decision. Also they face a lot of approbation from friends and family for their adultery, not to mention the cost of a divorce from someone who pre-A they had decided was their best match!

In your case he stayed in the 'let's see how we get along' stages of living together and never got to that decision. If he didn't reach it in happier times, it's unlikely he will want to with the work of recovery from an A hanging over him. It's not impossible but less likely.

Lots of couples who live together as a trial feel as good as married. They are not, and have never made any commitment at all besides the temporary paying of rent, which is why Dr H advises against it.

I learned so much about what commitment really is here (in spite of being married it was to a renter!). If you stick around, you'll pick up some great tips.

Have you seen this?
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love?

Plan A and plan B are designed for married persons facing affairs. The concepts can help you but Harley does not support cohabitation because nearly ALL people that live together (and they all say the same you do, that they love each other and it's the same as marriage) end up breaking up!
The commitment is not there!

Jedi knight......I didn't say it was the same. As marriage. I said that I had the same commitment as if we were married ( and still do ) and wanted to be married. Obviously my partner doesnt feel the same.

Brain hurts........thanks a. Very interesting article.

At this point, I think your best course of action is to read the book Buyers Renters and Freeloaders.
If he's cheating on you, expose it publicly on www.cheaterville.com.
If he has confessed homosexual encounters to his counselor, I suspect he has probably continued these encounters. Only a polygraph would tell for certain.

Hi all,
Just thought I would give an update. Chris said he wouldn't see the ow until the house was sold. He defaulted on that very quickly and was he had to move out (with 2 days notice). He seemed genuinely happy about that and relieved. From texts and Facebook messages he is infatuated with her.
A couple of weeks later my 18 year old daughter emailed the ow to let her know how Chris had been lying and deceiving her as well as us. She didn't want the ow's children(4 and7) to end up hurt like she and her younger brother(11) have been.
This produced some expectant grovelling via fb from Chris to ow. They are together but not living together.
He moved on the 6 th June to his brothers's family spare room and is still there. He is looking somewhere to rent nearer to myself (so he can supposedly have the 11 year old and be nearer to him). He has picked him up once a week, from school, to take him for tea and then drop him off since leaving here.
He has not seen the 2 foster children at all.
I am only communicating with him via text, concerning contact with the 11 year old and he is happily abiding to that. I have told him he is not a man I know and I have no desire to spend time with him.
He says he was trying to end our relationship with integrity by staying until things were sorted(the house being sold and the 19 month old moving to adopters following clear scans concerning the cancer) and didn't want to leave me in a financial mess and practical difficulties (also got the 8 year old profoundly disabled girl we took on from birth). He has now done both. Not offered to help financially (has no legal obligation) and not offered to help in practical/ logistical matters (though to be honest Idont think I would want him to.....it may be really hard but at least I have my dignity. He is now able to tell people that I told him to leave, rather than him feel he has walked out, but in reality he pushed me passed my personal limits of acceptable behaviour knowing that I would tell him to leave.
I plod on......busy for the kids, confused about all the lies and deception, somedays wanting what I thought was the man I knew home( but I obviously didn't know him during the 9 years as he wasn't being honest even with himself) and other times wondering how I could ever entertain the thought of any reconciliation.
Sally