Marriage Builders®
Posted By: ShineOn Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/25/15 08:42 PM
I will try to be brief. First background then question:
I'm the Wife in a 30+yr marriage. Homemaker for last 10+ yrs but with work experience. One grown dau married with 5yr old granddau. I keep the grandau while the "kids" work. We are very close and I treasure our time together.
I've read many books on marriage and tried for YEARS to help make ours better. I am DONE. DONE. DONE. Verbal abuse and manipulation and his refusal to get counseling have taken it's toll and I struggle with depression. If it weren't for God's love and my convictions, I wouldn't be here now.
We are both Christians. He's on the church board. He provides a good living (which takes up MUCH of his time and takes a toll on his health) and does "nice" things for me (like offer to fix breakfast etc) but is seldom physically affectionate and has ignored my statements for years regarding my need for his attention, time, etc. He offered minimal apologies for his angry outbursts (yelling and insulting me) but nothing more. After the last one he called me when he would normally be sleeping and told me God woke him up and told him to apologize. (He had told me to just leave and find someone else.) That was a wonderful breakthrough I though but there's really been no change so another outburst afterwards was the last straw. This was a month or two ago. I've been distant to avoid his anger. I've promised myself it will not happen again...and if it does I will remove myself immediately from his presence.
I have taken good care of myself and am told I'm attractive. I've worked on myself character wise to be sure I'm being reasonable and using the right methods to talk things out. He just uses everything I say against me. I have apologized for things I've done that hurt him and done my best to avoid doing those things in the future. He seems bitter and unforgiving and has a wall built around him that I've given up getting him to take down. I no longer desire to be around him or talk to him due to dread of having to deal with his anger. He does seem to be happier, and less angry when I don't speak to him much. (I'm not giving the "silent treatment" but making small talk as with any other casual friend or asking easy yes/no questions about necessary things.)
I have read MB's material in the past and tried to get him to do it with me. No go. Recently I read about plan A and B. I feel like I've tried plan A and am ready for plan B. (Leaving.) I don't really want a divorce but am so ready to be free from this dread and sadness and loneliness.
HOWEVER, if I get a job and move out, I won't be able to care for my granddaughter. This is very important for me and I know it is for Hub as well. (He told me he didn't want me working so I could be free to care for her.) I could possibly work weekends to bring in some cash but it wouldn't be enough for me to afford housing and such. I also don't want to ruin us financially.
SO the big question....is it unreasonable of me to think I could live on site (we have 20+ acres) in my own cabin and thus be separated from him? (We already plan to build one so we have a home that's paid for.) Should I still cook for him, do his laundry, shop for groceries and household items and keep the finances? Should I use my sewing machine, washer/dryer, fridge that are in the "main" house? What about keeping the kiddo? I don't want to upset the routine too much for her sake.
What about transportation and living expenses? I know the more I think about it the more it doesn't sound like leaving....but then maybe it would be enough to wake him up and get him to really work on the relationship? (I wouldn't agree to move back in until we'd been in counseling a while and made sure we were on the right track to a healthy marriage.) If not, I'd feel as though I'd done what I could. I really don't want a divorce but simply MUST find a way out of this stress.
Meanwhile, I'm trying reduce what I own, selling equines and thinning out my clothes and such to make it easier to manage through a transition.
I considered a counseling appointment with MB but at $225 per session I was wondering how many it would take. Also doubted how much it could help since he refuses to go with me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 02:06 PM
Welcome to MB.

Have you seen this?

What to do with an Angry Husband
Posted By: unwritten Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 02:56 PM
Separating by moving to another location on the same property, and maintaining the status quo of chores, will not work. You are right, it is not really separation at all.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 02:58 PM
You do need to seperate if your husband refuses to end his abuse. Surely this is not the environment you want to raise your granddaughter in, or the relationship model you want to expose her to.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 03:50 PM
Thank you BrainHurts for the link. I don't know that I've followed that exact protocol but have been trying for years to make things better. I don't have the emotional energy now to keep trying. I find that when I'm "in the drivers seat" so to speak with the relationship...all that gets is blame. Since I'm the one trying and it's not working, I must be the one to blame. He has told me for years he will never trust me, never open to me, etc and I should have believed him when he said it. I asked him how we could have a relationship with an attitude like that and he admitted he didn't know. So it's been me trying to make a one sided relationship work and I can't take it anymore.

Unwritten, thank you for your reply. I really don't want to give up spending this time with my granddaughter. For various reasons....including the fact that her parents don't always choose good places for her to go when she's not with me.
My hub is not physically abusive...though the verbal abuse does make me fear that it could someday come to physical. Maybe it's just the devil or my weakness as a woman that makes me fear this?
As for a bad example to the granddaughter, it is a concern. So far, all I can remember is one instance when we were in town (the 3 of us) and deciding on a place to go out to eat. He was yelling and accusing when I questioned what I would get at a particular restaurant. I was diagnosed with gluten intolerance and he said it was a farce and that I was just putting on and would eat whatever I wanted. The granddaughter was only 3 or 4 at this time but knew there was trouble as I gave her paper and pen to draw with and she drew me a cute pic of a cat to cheer me.
Other than that, hub is more supportive with the grandkid than our own kid. He will tell her to thank me for the good supper and for caring for her and the like.
His abuse is very subtle most of the time. My eyes have been opened in recent years to even calling it abuse and I'm SURE he would think I was really blowing things out of proportion to use that word. He will put me in the middle and attempt to control by guilt. That nearly destroyed me before I figured out what was going on.
I was surprised by our pastor's wife's reply when I asked about the husband being responsible to teach the children respect for the wife. My husband didn't do this and my dau tends to be disrespectful in the same subtle but very hurtful ways. The pastor's wife said this is a form of abuse. I hadn't told her about the verbal abuse in our home and it was like a conformation that what I suspected was correct. Her reply came as a surprise because it seems that many times when a woman leaves her husband, those in my church (mostly men) see it as the woman leaving the faith and give little thought to what the husband did to cause it.
I could give many examples but not sure that's what's needed. I just feel that words will not make any difference now and I obviously don't have the right "tools" (Strength, knowledge, whatever) it takes to make things work. I also have no support group at all. Few friends and even fewer who want to "help" (get involved) with something like this.
I just don't want to admit that the price for my mental well being is to give up caring for my granddaughter. Perhaps I should go for a divorce and try to get enough in the settlement that only part-time work would pay the bills and allow me to stay home with her when she needs me.
The alternative is to stay in the current situation, do nothing and try to bear it but I can't take it anymore. frown I don't want to cheat and don't think I'd end my own life but I fear those things on the very low days.

I ask myself, how did I get here...to this place of such pain and sadness?! All I wanted was to love and be loved. To really live, experience life...the simple life with time together, fun outdoors working and playing together. I'm not afraid of hard work and don't expect life to be perfect. It really doesn't take a lot to make me happy but to deprive a wife of love and affection and make her fear to trust you is the cruelest thing ever.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 08:59 PM
Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/26/15 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?


No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

Sell it to her. Make it a desirable option with Great Rewards.

LTL
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 03:06 AM
LTL I am the "her" it's the him that won't agree.
I can't understand why only couples are counseled. That leaves it up to the one partner to get the other to agree. If communication was that good to begin with they wouldn't be in the pickle they're in. frown
The only thing I can think of is moving out, seeking a legal separation and telling him I'll move back if he agrees to counseling and participates for a certain time. 6 months or something. This will only work if he really wants me to move back in and isn't too prideful to admit that and agree to getting help.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 03:10 AM
If he won't agree to meet your needs or work on your marriage, then it is not 'communication' that is lacking. It is an unwillingness on his part to create a marriage of extraordinary care that is the problem. You are correct that if you are married to a spouse that is refusing to meet your needs or provide you with care, your next option is to separate.

That does not even take into consideration the AO's and abuse you are enduring.

But whatever advice we give you, it is irrelevant if you are more concerned about providing daycare for your grandchild than being safe, happy and mental stable.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 03:14 AM
Have you seen a Dr about your depression and suicidal thoughts? I would highly recommend you seeing a Dr and perhaps going on AD's if necessary. It will allow you to have a clearer thought process and follow a plan.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?


Dr. Harley addressed this very question on his radio show a couple years ago.
Most people that contact him have a problem they are facing in their marriage. He never hears from the healthy marriages and when he does hear from a couple facing problems, its usually one of the spouses that contacts him and their partner is "reluctant" to change.

If you contact the coaching services, they could work with you to develop a plan to get your husband on board with MB. You can also follow the advice of many knowledgeable women on this board to get your husband on the ship.

You may need to eventually separate if he refuses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement or control his anger.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 09:41 AM
Originally Posted By: LearnedTooLate
No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

It is not true that both spouses must participate in the telephone coaching service, if that is what the original poster meant by "counselling".

There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:

1. You can write to Dr Harley at the radio show, and he will answer your email, including follow-up questions. It is common for only one spouse to seek help, and the participation of the other spouse is not required (although, obviously, it would be ideal). Dr Harley's wife Joyce invites some of the people who have written in to speak to them on the radio show, but you do not have to do this, and you will still get help from Dr Harley. Dr Harley is always keen to hear from the reluctant spouse, and he and Joyce will encourage you to seek their participation, but this often does not happen, and help is still effective. This is free.

Many people write to Dr Harley with no intention of going of the show, and he answers their questions without reading the email on the show. This, as I said, is free, and does not require the other spouse to participate.

2. You can pay for telephone coaching with one of Dr Harley's children, who run the telephone service; his daughter Dr Jennifer Chalmers, or his son Steve Harley. You cannot speak to Dr Harley himself via this method. Again, it is common for only one spouse to use this service. The whole point is that they are often trying to get help with a withdrawn spouse, who by definition is not interested in working on the marriage. Jennifer and Steve will usually make suggestions to get the other spouse on board, but they will coach one spouse for as long as necessary. The service is expensive, at about $200 per hour, but it is designed to change behaviour and be effective on the marriage as quickly as possible - hence its description as "coaching" and not "counselling". The goal is not to talk for years on end, but to act, quickly, on the marriage.

3. Finally there is the online course. This is the Home Study course, which is designed for couples to do by themselves (and which costs very little), but with the online version, the couple is assigned a coach who is trained and closely supervised by Dr Harley. The couple completes lessons from the Home Study course (e.g they work on eliminating a specific love buster that they identified as a problem, they report on their progress to each other and the coach, and when the problem is eliminated they move on to the next lesson). The online course costs about $1000 and is designed to take one year to complete. The couple is sent a wealth of Dr Harley's books, CDs and questionnaires as part of the package, and they are given lifelong access to the private forum on this site, where they can post questions directly to Dr Harley. While they are completing the course, they have access to their coach by telephone (as well as email).

The online course is the only coaching that must be done by both spouses. One spouse should not attempt to sign up to the course if they have an uninterested spouse who will not participate.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 05:24 PM
Unwritten, thanks for the insight. You are right it is an unwillingness on his part...but he does say he doesn't understand the way I think and what I mean when I talk. (I think it's just more of his way of ignoring me and making excuses.)
What are AO's?
The statement about "daycare" seems a bit harsh. I don't simply provide "daycare". I read bible stories and teach my granddaughter to be a lady that loves God. She doesn't get this at home (or at least not much) and certainly wouldn't get it from any local daycare. She is only a child of 5 and requires nurturing and protection and guidance and love. I am an adult. I can endure more than she and will for her sake. I have learned more of how to stand up for myself (boundaries by cloud/townsend) and it has helped a lot but I still have bad days and I know that in the long run something must be done regarding my marriage. However, I want to do what's right in God's eyes and what is best not only for myself but for those around me as well. I don't want to be selfish or act rashly. (Thus my seeking Godly counsel.)
As for going on AD's I refuse to do so as they have many side effects and it does nothing to solve the real issues. I am not an immediate danger to myself. I'm human and it does cross my mind but I'm sure that happens to many people who never carry through with the thought.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 05:31 PM
Quote:
Dr. Harley addressed this very question on his radio show a couple years ago................

If you contact the coaching services, they could work with you to develop a plan to get your husband on board with MB. You can also follow the advice of many knowledgeable women on this board to get your husband on the ship................

You may need to eventually separate if he refuses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement or control his anger.


Thank you Jedi for the info and hope.
I will follow up on it. It sounds like the exact type of support I'm needing.
About a year ago I engaged the services of a wonderful life coach to help me with personal character development. I was pleased with the progress I made and amazed that the minimal contact with her and her kindness, reassurance and direction made such a big impact on me. I was happier overall and could think more clearly.
Again thank you. I look forward to finding the help we need. I've got 30 years invested in this man....having married when we were both just kids (15 and 16) and nothing would please me more than to be happily in love with him and he with me.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 05:35 PM


Quote:
There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:


SugarCane.....THANK YOU! You've made it clear enough even I can understand.
This gives me such hope. I will follow up. :-)

Thanks to those who mentioned me in their prayers. Today I can feel He is with me. :-)
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 05:46 PM
Please click in this list:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html
If you see all the letters, you will find a bunch on controlling- abusive-angry spouses etc.
It will be good for you to see advice that has already been given for similar situation.

The Lord like us to deal with truths. The truth is that as much as you would "like" to have a wonderful relationship with your husband.... You can only do your part.
It really is up to him to step up and do what it takes.

Raising the bar actually helps him.
In truth you staying while he is angry etc rewards him for his AO (angry outburts).

Welcome and God bless!
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 11:43 PM
Elaina7, thanks for the link. I will read and try to learn.
I have quit going places with him so he can't verbally attack me in the car. I don't think he realizes that's why but it sure has made my life happier.
I also leave the room or house if we're at home and he gets angry. I've also reduced my talk time on the phone to him to bare basics. He got mad at me at first (and probably still is) but I told him it's because you're always getting angry at me.
At this point, I prefer not to see him at all though I do like to know he's ok and don't mind cooking supper and doing my normal chores. I avoid being in the same room as him for the most part but in the mornings we make small talk a little. I don't want him to think I'm "angry" with him but I do want him to know there is something wrong. I no longer tell him I love him. I feel like I'm lying. I am committed to him but romantic love isn't there. (Kinda hard to want to hug on someone who has hurt you so many times and doesn't want to see it.)
He also seems to think I can live with just a kiss goodbye and a date night once every 3 to 6 months. NOT. Anyway...I'm just rambling now. I'm sure there are many other ladies who are going through the same thing. I'm sad they are but happy to find folks that understand and are willing to offer help. It is such a blessing. Praise the LORD!
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/27/15 11:50 PM
Oh...the link lists the love busters...dishonesty is an issue with my spouse too. Of course he gets angry for me calling it that but how can I trust someone who isn't truthful?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 01:31 AM
Is he still having angry outbursts?
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 06:17 AM
BrainHurts, he had one AO after the phone call apology. After that I was done. Totally went into protective mode for my own sanity. This was maybe a month or two ago? I don't think the AO's are suddenly solved but as I've said, I limit conversations and spend very little time face to face with him sot here is little opportunity for any AO to happen.

Q: I've been spending a lot of time reading MB. Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling? I *think* the online course may work for us...IF he will be honest with himself and the person we're assigned to work with.
I'm thinking the way to get him to agree to the course may be that if he doesn't I'm moving out. This will take some time though as I have many things that need to be done, finding homes for animals, housing, etc. I'd like more input on this point though so hope to find in previous threads or start a new thread to learn more.

I'm a bit discouraged when I think back on it all. He is very deceptive and sees nothing wrong with it. I've always been the type to be totally honest and lay all my cards on the table. This has been used against me enough that I have learned to be more guarded.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 06:21 AM
Prisca is one of our best examples of how she handled markos's AOs.

Please read. Angry Outbursts
Posted By: ShineOn How to get Hub to agree to do online course - 08/28/15 06:50 AM
Background:
Wife in 30+yr marriage. Somewhat familiar with MB as I have read and tried to implement some years ago but H wasn't interested. Of course marriage is no better...in fact worse with his Angry Outbursts. (not physical, only verbal)
I've withdrawn myself from him but still carry on daily life. (homemaker and keep the grand kid several days a week while the kids work.) He hasn't had an AO's since I've limited my communication time and face time with him. I'm considering moving out but it will most likely take several months at least to make arrangements and I don't want to unless I really have to.

SO...any advice for getting him to agree to do the course and really do it? (Not just go through the motions) I like the online course as it has some accountability and I'm not the "mean guy" making sure everything gets done right. H is not honest all the time and is very good at saying what he thinks people want to hear so needs someone to hold him accountable.

And just because this post sounds so cold.....I'll say this...I've been through this verbal abuse for years and most of the time can put up a tough front. I also know that I have made many mistakes (disrespect to him) that have a huge impact on the overall picture. Bottom line: Now is the time for change. Not because I look forward to all the work involved either way, staying or going but because I can't live this way anymore and be healthy emotionally or physically.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 07:11 AM
BrainHurts: I did and thank you.
I didn't know it but that's my response to H's AO's.
I don't say a word then I get where I can not hear him. (Unless I can't like in a moving vehicle. Thus the reason I don't want to go anywhere with him.)
However, after the last really bad one (Where he yelled that he wished I just leave and find someone else) I did come back in the house (after I'd had some time to cry and pray in the barn) and told him how hateful that was and totally uncalled for. (I was so stressed out I don't remember my exact words but felt God helped me speak the truth in love instead of blasting away with some hotheaded response.) I think I asked him if he was trying to make me leave because that's what it felt like.
I've asked him before if there's someone else and he says there isn't. I believe him because his job takes most of his time and he has back issues that seem to decrease his drive. I wondered about online porn but he doesn't seem to be trying to hide anything from me. He knows to delete history when done browsing but he's not what I'd term "computer savvy" so if there are other ways to check/monitor I could try them. (I would have to learn what to do as I've not done anything like it before.)
He's not being hateful to me now. In fact seems to be making a little more effort now to "spend time" with me. (a few minutes before he goes to bed) and keeps telling me he loves me once a day or so even though I seldom return the words.

Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 10:24 AM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: LearnedTooLate
No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

It is not true that both spouses must participate in the telephone coaching service, if that is what the original poster meant by "counselling".

There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:

1. You can write to Dr Harley at the radio show, and he will answer your email, including follow-up questions. It is common for only one spouse to seek help, and the participation of the other spouse is not required (although, obviously, it would be ideal). Dr Harley's wife Joyce invites some of the people who have written in to speak to them on the radio show, but you do not have to do this, and you will still get help from Dr Harley. Dr Harley is always keen to hear from the reluctant spouse, and he and Joyce will encourage you to seek their participation, but this often does not happen, and help is still effective. This is free.

Many people write to Dr Harley with no intention of going of the show, and he answers their questions without reading the email on the show. This, as I said, is free, and does not require the other spouse to participate.

2. You can pay for telephone coaching with one of Dr Harley's children, who run the telephone service; his daughter Dr Jennifer Chalmers, or his son Steve Harley. You cannot speak to Dr Harley himself via this method. Again, it is common for only one spouse to use this service. The whole point is that they are often trying to get help with a withdrawn spouse, who by definition is not interested in working on the marriage. Jennifer and Steve will usually make suggestions to get the other spouse on board, but they will coach one spouse for as long as necessary. The service is expensive, at about $200 per hour, but it is designed to change behaviour and be effective on the marriage as quickly as possible - hence its description as "coaching" and not "counselling". The goal is not to talk for years on end, but to act, quickly, on the marriage.

3. Finally there is the online course. This is the Home Study course, which is designed for couples to do by themselves (and which costs very little), but with the online version, the couple is assigned a coach who is trained and closely supervised by Dr Harley. The couple completes lessons from the Home Study course (e.g they work on eliminating a specific love buster that they identified as a problem, they report on their progress to each other and the coach, and when the problem is eliminated they move on to the next lesson). The online course costs about $1000 and is designed to take one year to complete. The couple is sent a wealth of Dr Harley's books, CDs and questionnaires as part of the package, and they are given lifelong access to the private forum on this site, where they can post questions directly to Dr Harley. While they are completing the course, they have access to their coach by telephone (as well as email).

The online course is the only coaching that must be done by both spouses. One spouse should not attempt to sign up to the course if they have an uninterested spouse who will not participate.


My apologies for only thinking of the online, for couples to do together, program.

Sugar Cane obviously presented the other options that are so readily available and inexpensive or free to boot.

LTL
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 04:05 PM
OH LTL...but I think you recommended the best one for our situation! Your input is appreciated. :-)
Posted By: LearnedTooLate Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/28/15 07:01 PM
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
OH LTL...but I think you recommended the best one for our situation! Your input is appreciated. :-)


Thank you. My mind was set in only the one track option mode, without looking further outside the box for other possibilities.

It would never be my intent to steer someone into an option that is unfeasible.

I am Sooo Grateful that Sugar Cane properly and promptly supplied the much needed different methods to get you started on a positive path.

LTL
Oh common...I know there are women on here who have successfully completed the MB training material with a reluctant husband and perhaps even some hubbys on here who were slow to agree but are glad they did?!
Posted By: alis Re: How to get Hub to agree to do online course - 08/28/15 10:02 PM
I told him that I would separate if he did not start with these principles. I didn't detail more than that - I kept it brief and I was dead serious (I really was). I admit, ShineOn, that our marriage was much younger than yours (I was pregnant with a toddler), and I understand that would be a big upheaval for you and your long-term marriage.

But keep in mind, Dr. Harley has observed women do not tolerate neglect the same as men. Men can take a lot more, emotionally. For affairs, men try to win back a spouse for six months. It's three WEEKS for women.

If you are already unwell, it may be worth considering if you need to leave. That doesn't mean divorce, it means taking steps to protect yourself.

BTW, our marriage is great today, three years later, but he knows how close it came.
Originally Posted By: alis
(I was pregnant with a toddler)

Yikes! shocked
Posted By: alis Re: How to get Hub to agree to do online course - 08/28/15 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: alis
(I was pregnant with a toddler)

Yikes! shocked


Oh dear!
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Oh common...I know there are women on here who have successfully completed the MB training material with a reluctant husband and perhaps even some hubbys on here who were slow to agree but are glad they did?!


I think the only thing one can do is try to sell it to them. I mean, what is in it for him Shine? Does HE want a better relationship or is he just fine with the way things are?

What kind of things would you know that would temp him? It is different for everyone so only you may know this. (Such as my H really wanted a say in my spending & with this program... He got to have a say)

If tempting them wont work.... Then the only alternative is separation.

I was in the online course and can already tell you that Dr Harley would tell you to see a lawyer just in case but to kick HIM out of the marital home with a letter detailing that he must seek anger management now before anything else will be addressed. That you should plan on this taking at minimum a year just to practice his new habits.
This is what I did.
Change the locks, pack a bag for him & leave a letter for him outside the house. Then if he blows up- call the police.
Legally he would still have to take care of you but it would be up to him to find a place to live.

Its just those 2: tempt him into it or kick him out. There are no other ways that work.

*just please don't "talk" and grovel/beg for it.... Even if he agreed by that- they wont follow through.*
Posted By: KPT Re: How to get Hub to agree to do online course - 08/29/15 01:52 AM
I would advise to check your legal rights before kicking anyone out
Originally Posted By: alis
I told him that I would separate if he did not start with these principles. I didn't detail more than that - I kept it brief and I was dead serious (I really was). I admit, ShineOn, that our marriage was much younger than yours (I was pregnant with a toddler), and I understand that would be a big upheaval for you and your long-term marriage.

But keep in mind, Dr. Harley has observed women do not tolerate neglect the same as men. Men can take a lot more, emotionally. For affairs, men try to win back a spouse for six months. It's three WEEKS for women.

If you are already unwell, it may be worth considering if you need to leave. That doesn't mean divorce, it means taking steps to protect yourself.

BTW, our marriage is great today, three years later, but he knows how close it came.


LOL about the preg w/ toddler. :-)Thanks for the chuckle.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. The comment about men and women handling neglect different is very insightful. I've had to tell H NOT to tease me like the guys at work. (They do things to make each other mad then laugh about it the next day....)
I've learned that being as brief as possible, staying on subject and not getting emotional is the best way to communicate when trying to accomplish something.

Thank you too for the comment about protecting myself. That's exactly the mode I feel I'm in now. I don't want to seem hateful or rude or that I don't love him as of course I still do deep down but it's past time for things to change and nothing I've tried thus far has worked.

I am trying to get some animals of mine sold so I am more free to go if I need to. I've looked into living options and currently like the idea of a travel trailer. Affordable and easy to relocate. Not sure about a transportation vehicle though. I've considered where to live to have good options for part time employment and still be close enough to keep my granddaughter....if the kids would permit me to do so and I think they would.

I guess I'm saying all that to say this. A threat isn't much of a threat unless the other party feels there's a good chance of follow through. I'm trying to be prepared so I can follow through if it comes to that but it will take me months to be ready to move out and I'd like to start the program asap. (Patience is something God is constantly working with me on.) My H takes time to think on things...as I believe many men do so it wouldn't surprise me at all if I have to be gone some time for him to miss me enough to work it out. I hope I'm wrong of course. Sometimes their bark is worse than their bite. I know he hates to do laundry. LOL I pray he sees the marriage as worth saving. I think he will if I can just somehow make him understand that we BOTH NEED help.

So glad your marriage is happy now. Did you do the online course? Did your H do it resentfully at first?
Quote:
I think the only thing one can do is try to sell it to them. I mean, what is in it for him Shine? Does HE want a better relationship or is he just fine with the way things are?


He is fine with the way things were....I don't think he'll be fine for too long with the way things are now but time will tell. I just don't want him thinking I'm withdrawn because I'm cheating or don't love him. I have told him the reason I don't talk to him on the phone when he does his daily check in is because he gets angry so often.

Tonight he was angry again because I want to float tomorrow and may not have anyone to go with me. I plan to check with the rental place and see if they have several groups going and if so I feel OK to go. (I'm an experienced floater and this is a novice level part of the river) H was asking me questions about my plans and using his irritated voice. He had a very long pause at which I remained totally silent then he said his brief goodbyes and hung up. That's better than him blowing up on me. Maybe he'll think it over and decide to be civil and just ask me nicely not to go if he's not comfortable with it.

Quote:
What kind of things would you know that would temp him? It is different for everyone so only you may know this. (Such as my H really wanted a say in my spending & with this program... He got to have a say)


I wish I could think of something...I'm totally blank. I don't have a paying job. I keep the house and the kid and H and manage the finances. I've asked him to be more involved with finances but he leaves it to me. He's very passive when it comes to relationships...which he probably things is "being nice" and I see it as too lazy to do his part. I don't know of anything that he'd really like for me to start or stop doing that would make him agree to this. The leaving is all I can think of.

He doesn't mind me going and doing stuff by myself (as I have often in our marriage)Between his health issues and sleep issues and little time due to his job, it was rare for us to actually spend "fun" time together. He seems happy for me to be alone most of the time. and to leave me alone most of the time. The only thing he seems unhappy with is that I don't say "I love you" and don't kiss/hug him goodbye or ask him for sex or for snuggle time. (I've been turned down often...and I don't mean I asked every day either. Also with his anger issues I'm just not OK with making love to someone that's probably going to bite my head off the next day and someone who can't keep promises he makes to me....etc, etc....)

Quote:
If tempting them wont work.... Then the only alternative is separation.

That's what I was coming up with too. frown

Quote:
I was in the online course and can already tell you that Dr Harley would tell you to see a lawyer just in case but to kick HIM out of the marital home with a letter detailing that he must seek anger management now before anything else will be addressed. That you should plan on this taking at minimum a year just to practice his new habits.
This is what I did.
Change the locks, pack a bag for him & leave a letter for him outside the house. Then if he blows up- call the police.
Legally he would still have to take care of you but it would be up to him to find a place to live.


I don't think it's to this point yet. Of course if he was getting physical at all or if I felt there was nothing I could do to stop or avoid his outbursts I'm sure this would be a great plan. I'm glad you had the fortitude to do it and keep yourself safe. I hope things worked out for both of you.

Quote:
*just please don't "talk" and grovel/beg for it.... Even if he agreed by that- they wont follow through.*

I'm noticing that talking (especially to someone who's use to ignoring me) doesn't do much except frustrate me and give him a target for his anger or ammo for the next argument. I'm pretty much done talking unless I have something pretty major to say. I don't beg or grovel. I haven't allowed him to make me feel that small but believe me it's been an interesting struggle! It's hard for me to understand why/how you can marry someone you love and then have to defend against them destroying you emotionally and psychologically. Perhaps he feels the same? I know I've not been perfect and will need to work on myself also.

Thank you for taking the time to reply and share your suggestions/experiences!
Originally Posted By: KPT
I would advise to check your legal rights before kicking anyone out


Good advice....but don't think I'll be going that route unless I'm in for an ugly surprise. I don't like ugly surprises but they do sometimes pop up.:-/
Posted By: Prisca Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/29/15 05:17 PM
Quote:
Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling?

You need to first prepare for a separation. Get yourself financially independent and have a new place lined up for yourself to live.

Then present him with the MB program. Give him that chance to do what it takes to keep you. If he refuses, then separate immediately.

If he has ONE MORE AO, separate immediately, even if you aren't fully prepared to separate. Insist that he goes to anger management for at least a year before you will consider living with him again. Insist that he talks to Dr. Harley (he can do that free, so if he won't even do that, I'm not sure he's worth recovering with). Dr. Harley can help you decide if and when your husband has truly eliminated his AOs and is safe to be around again.

What separation will do in your case is speed up what's already going to happen -- if he's ever going to step up to the plate to do what it takes to keep you, this will speed it up. But if he never was going to anyway, this will spare you the pain of watching your marriage slowly die.

Originally Posted By: ShineOn
I've asked him before if there's someone else and he says there isn't. I believe him because his job takes most of his time and he has back issues that seem to decrease his drive. I wondered about online porn but he doesn't seem to be trying to hide anything from me. He knows to delete history when done browsing but he's not what I'd term "computer savvy" so if there are other ways to check/monitor I could try them. (I would have to learn what to do as I've not done anything like it before.)

Don't trust him on this. Even non-tech savvy people can hide things online -- my husband is a computer programmer that works on a genius level, and I still was able to hide things from him.

So, get some spyware on his computer and phone. Get a VAR and put it in his car. You might consider a PI that can follow him if none of that turns anything up. Verify for certain that there isn't anybody else.
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/30/15 04:29 AM
One other thought:
You should get a free consult with a lawyer...

You get half of all assets- half of all retirment, you will be entitled to his social security, maybe alimony and you might find yourself in a good position finacially where you can still help watch your grandaugter....

It is always a good idea to become educated on a decision that needs to be made (you arent filing, no paperwork just info gathering)
I think you would feel really good after you find out what you could walk away with.

And I would also put a keylogger on his computer.
Posted By: Pearlseeker Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/30/15 05:37 PM
Quote:
Q: I've been spending a lot of time reading MB. Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling? I *think* the online course may work for us...IF he will be honest with himself and the person we're assigned to work with.
I'm thinking the way to get him to agree to the course may be that if he doesn't I'm moving out. This will take some time though as I have many things that need to be done, finding homes for animals, housing, etc. I'd like more input on this point though so hope to find in previous threads or start a new thread to learn more.


ShineOn,

As a formerly reluctant husband with an anger problem (among others) I can say that nothing changes ones direction like running into a solid wall. She drew a line and said "things must change,I can't go on like this." It was/is very painful to hear such things but sometimes it's the only thing that works.

We are currently in the middle of the MB home study course. It's been a rough ride and sometimes it feels like we're barely treading water. At the beginning of the program I had no hope of my own that MB could make a difference for us. I was acting/moving forward entirely on faith in what others were saying. But today, halfway through this part, I am feeling somewhat hopeful. This program does work if followed in it's entirety.

I just want to confirm what the other posters are telling you, nothing other than a solid wall of resolve is likely to get his attention. Then he will either choose to work on your relationship or it will be over.

These folks give excellent advice.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/30/15 07:48 PM
Great post, Pearlseeker!
Posted By: markos Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/30/15 09:23 PM
Wow, Pearlseeker, what a great post!
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/31/15 02:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling?

You need to first prepare for a separation. Get yourself financially independent and have a new place lined up for yourself to live.

Then present him with the MB program. Give him that chance to do what it takes to keep you. If he refuses, then separate immediately.

If he has ONE MORE AO, separate immediately, even if you aren't fully prepared to separate. Insist that he goes to anger management for at least a year before you will consider living with him again. Insist that he talks to Dr. Harley (he can do that free, so if he won't even do that, I'm not sure he's worth recovering with). Dr. Harley can help you decide if and when your husband has truly eliminated his AOs and is safe to be around again.

What separation will do in your case is speed up what's already going to happen -- if he's ever going to step up to the plate to do what it takes to keep you, this will speed it up. But if he never was going to anyway, this will spare you the pain of watching your marriage slowly die.

Originally Posted By: ShineOn
I've asked him before if there's someone else and he says there isn't. I believe him because his job takes most of his time and he has back issues that seem to decrease his drive. I wondered about online porn but he doesn't seem to be trying to hide anything from me. He knows to delete history when done browsing but he's not what I'd term "computer savvy" so if there are other ways to check/monitor I could try them. (I would have to learn what to do as I've not done anything like it before.)

Don't trust him on this. Even non-tech savvy people can hide things online -- my husband is a computer programmer that works on a genius level, and I still was able to hide things from him.

So, get some spyware on his computer and phone. Get a VAR and put it in his car. You might consider a PI that can follow him if none of that turns anything up. Verify for certain that there isn't anybody else.


Ok..so my two threads were merged which makes it a bit confusing on page three but I'm happy to see more posts regarding my situation.

Thank you Prisca for this practical plan. I hope I don't have to use it (I have some news I'll post in a moment)but knowing there are people in my corner that are kind enough to help and understand is such a relief to me and I know if I have to take this route I'll have support. Putting my thankfulness into words is difficult but perhaps having been in a similar situation you and the others who have helped me understand what I mean.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/31/15 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Elaina7
One other thought:
You should get a free consult with a lawyer...

You get half of all assets- half of all retirment, you will be entitled to his social security, maybe alimony and you might find yourself in a good position finacially where you can still help watch your grandaugter....

It is always a good idea to become educated on a decision that needs to be made (you arent filing, no paperwork just info gathering)
I think you would feel really good after you find out what you could walk away with.

And I would also put a keylogger on his computer.


Elaina7, Thank you for this input. You are right...before I make any decisions about finances it would be wise to know exactly where I would be in any given situation..(separation/divorce).
I'll look into the keylogger. I've heard of it but dont' know what it is.
BUT...I've had an answered prayer this weekend so....stay tuned. :-)
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/31/15 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Pearlseeker
Quote:
Q: I've been spending a lot of time reading MB. Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling? I *think* the online course may work for us...IF he will be honest with himself and the person we're assigned to work with.
I'm thinking the way to get him to agree to the course may be that if he doesn't I'm moving out. This will take some time though as I have many things that need to be done, finding homes for animals, housing, etc. I'd like more input on this point though so hope to find in previous threads or start a new thread to learn more.


ShineOn,

As a formerly reluctant husband with an anger problem (among others) I can say that nothing changes ones direction like running into a solid wall. She drew a line and said "things must change,I can't go on like this." It was/is very painful to hear such things but sometimes it's the only thing that works.

We are currently in the middle of the MB home study course. It's been a rough ride and sometimes it feels like we're barely treading water. At the beginning of the program I had no hope of my own that MB could make a difference for us. I was acting/moving forward entirely on faith in what others were saying. But today, halfway through this part, I am feeling somewhat hopeful. This program does work if followed in it's entirety.

I just want to confirm what the other posters are telling you, nothing other than a solid wall of resolve is likely to get his attention. Then he will either choose to work on your relationship or it will be over.

These folks give excellent advice.


Pearlseeker....I can't thank you enough for your response. You are right...it took a solid wall to begin a change. The problem is it's very difficult for me as a woman to be that strong. It only happened with the Lords Help.

I appreciate your entire response but I'm needing to leave for the day so time is short.

I will say that my "news" is that after about a month of me literally being as withdrawn as possible but still showing respect and doing basic chores God answered prayers (Hubs and Mine!) and this weekend we went away for an impromptu overnight and day of relaxing and exploring. (We both enjoy the outdoors) Of course I told him simply and briefly that Id' go as long as he didn't grouch at me. We had an enjoyable time though I am still somewhat guarded, which may just be the way I need to be for a long while, there is cause for hope.


When I mentioned MB, he said he'd heard of them on the radio or something. (He drives long hours for his job) After talking for a few minutes and hitting some highlights of the program and discussing some general issues married couples encounter HUBBY AGREED to do the online course with me! PRAISE THE LORD.

I'm not young and dumb enough to think this is the end of all our troubles (and I thank you PS for your honest comments about working through the program) but it is a start and there is as your signature says....optimistic hope. :-)

I will read and comment more later. Thank you again dear fellow travelers for your time and assistance. May God Bless each of you. Thank you to those who prayed for us. God IS Faithful and Good. I've only been on this board for a few days and the Monday before I posted I was so sad I struggled all day with a huge emotional weight. I would have cried if it would have helped. I just wanted to disappear or somehow be transported to a place where I could feel loved and cared for. This board was an answered prayer and I'm sure it will be a huge asset as we go on the MB journey to a healthy marriage.

<<HUGS>>> to my MB friends :-)
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 08/31/15 05:10 PM
Awesome!

I would call and sign up immediately because it might be possible to receive the package before Friday (ask the AMB office.) If so, then I would suggest clearing your entire holiday weekend to focus on the beginning part of the program and Intro Video.

It's really cool.
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/02/15 01:15 AM
Great point DidntQuit! It is a long weekend.
I ordered program 3 last night. (Thought about just getting materials to save some $ but knowing us and human nature thought it best to have a coach for accountability and to answer any questions.)
Hoping to do vids this weekend as suggested by one of Doc's articles. My desktop computer died this morning so hope it will be fixed or that I don't need it to work on the program
Posted By: JBKT16 Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/02/15 05:28 PM
That's great that your husband is willing to try! Mine is saying that the program is "my way" and he is not doing things my way. I have tried to explain that it is the professionals way, not mine, but he refuses to see it that way. I am to the point of needing to separate. Just wanted you to know there are so many people out there that understand where you are coming from. The part that is just so hard is that my kids are 5 and 2. Oldest just started kindergarten and he thinks family is everything, he wants all 4 of us to do anything we ever do. I am glad that we have managed to raise him that way, and am scared of what a separation could do to him now.
Posted By: Pearlseeker Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/03/15 02:14 AM
Quote:
Pearlseeker....I can't thank you enough for your response. You are right...it took a solid wall to begin a change. The problem is it's very difficult for me as a woman to be that strong. It only happened with the Lords Help


ShineOn,

You're welcome. I can only imagine how difficult it must be, I'm glad you felt able with the Lords help!
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/03/15 02:38 PM
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Great point DidntQuit! It is a long weekend.
I ordered program 3 last night. (Thought about just getting materials to save some $ but knowing us and human nature thought it best to have a coach for accountability and to answer any questions.)
Hoping to do vids this weekend as suggested by one of Doc's articles. My desktop computer died this morning so hope it will be fixed or that I don't need it to work on the program


If the materials haven't changed since we did it a few years ago, there is some signing in by computer to fill out and submit forms.

You can still watch the DVD video portions but they ask you to stop at points and fill things out before continuing with the next section.

It is helpful to focus on it for the weekend, with some UA time breaks in between for lunch or walking.

It would be great if you could find computer access. Hopefully your husband has one. Maybe you could take turns using his.

Posted By: doesnt_want_meFL Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/03/15 02:52 PM
Originally Posted By: DidntQuit
Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Great point DidntQuit! It is a long weekend.
I ordered program 3 last night. (Thought about just getting materials to save some $ but knowing us and human nature thought it best to have a coach for accountability and to answer any questions.)
Hoping to do vids this weekend as suggested by one of Doc's articles. My desktop computer died this morning so hope it will be fixed or that I don't need it to work on the program


If the materials haven't changed since we did it a few years ago, there is some signing in by computer to fill out and submit forms.

You can still watch the DVD video portions but they ask you to stop at points and fill things out before continuing with the next section.

It is helpful to focus on it for the weekend, with some UA time breaks in between for lunch or walking.

It would be great if you could find computer access. Hopefully your husband has one. Maybe you could take turns using his.



H and I just did this a couple weeks ago. The whole first portion, the seminar, you watch online through a web address they will send you. The forms Didnt is talking about are also online. We didn't get an actual DVD of the seminar, just the link to it online, so I would say you need computer access to really get going. After that, depending on where they tell you to start, there is less need for computer access, although still some.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/03/15 03:39 PM
Thanks for chiming in, FL.!
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 09/22/15 05:15 AM
Figured it was time for an update. I'm at a very frustrated point right now but will try to keep this short and too the point:

We are managing to do the online program with hubby's laptop. Should know by end of week if I can rescue any pics or data off the other hard drive. I'm such a fool for not backing up all my pics.

I think we're practically done with watching the online seminar videos. We've signed the Memorandum. Hubs is a bit confused between Love Busters vs Emotional Needs. I prob would b too if this was the first I'd heard of it but I'd read up on the program some years ago. (I didn't let on to him that it was one I'd already tried to get him to do!)

I can't express in words how thankful I am that I chose the more expensive "coach included" option. I'm amazed at my feelings but hearing the MB stuff again and filling out the forms brings up so many negative memories for me I was feeling overwhelmed and hopeless. Coach Sandy said today that it's not unusual to feel that way. I told her I know this is good and we need to work on things but there's so much to be done and I don't have the emotional energy to drag stuff up and deal with it alone. She assured me she's available by email and phone and as soon as all the loose ends are tied up with the online vids, we'll have access to the "private" forum and Dr. Harley. Then begins the real work of repairing. May God be with us!

One thing that is hard is being totally honest but not being able to explain all the things that lead up to the way things are now. Things are getting weird now too. I saw some of his answers to the questionnaires (not snooping...just saw as I flipped over to my form) and he says I don't spend enough time with him!? I asked him for YEARS for more of his time and usually got anger instead of time. Now that I've been distant for a couple months he wants more time?! I have to remind myself to allow the program time to work and not just walk away but that was really irritating to me. There are other things too that are stressing me out but if I hashed each one out here, it would be a novel. LOL

So as I already mentioned, the "big" news is that the kids are planning to move out of state and this will end my keeping the grand kid while they work. I'm glad they'll be near the SIL's family there but it will be a huge adjustment for me. I'll sure miss those "baby" hugs. I think this has affected Hubby's POV on things too. He knows it would be easier for me to leave.

Why is it that he's nicer to me the more distant I am. That's like rewarding me for being distant. Is he trying to "win" me back? A few years ago he asked me if I loved him. I told him it was hard to when he yelled at me and didn't listen and all but that I respected our wedding vows and didn't believe in divorce. He made some comment about proving his love for me and he was nice for quite a while and of course it was easier to feel love for him but now that it feels like a game of cat and mouse. I'm tired of it all.

Anyway...thanks again for everyone being there for me. I shudder to think where I would be now had I not reached out. God bless you all!
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 10/13/15 07:33 PM
short update just in case anyone is following this thread:
We've done very few lessons (completing one per week in the order the coach suggests) BUT the best thing has been the 15hrs/week. To be honest, sometimes it's stressful because I fear an AO but the enjoyable times have been such a balm to my hurting heart and when I'm happier, I'm more in love and that seems to make him happier. Hubs seems more aware of his behavior and how it affects me even though we've not done the AO chapter yet. I see how I've used SD and other abusive ways in the past that contributed to some of the problems we face today.
Of course there's still a long way to go and many concerns along the way but I feel more optimistic that we'll make it through with the help of the coach and access to Dr. H via the private forum that goes with this program.
A very worthwhile investment I think!
Posted By: Prisca Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 10/13/15 08:48 PM
Are ya'll working through the Lovebuster course first?
Posted By: ShineOn Re: Where to go from here: Plan B? - 10/15/15 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Are ya'll working through the Lovebuster course first?


Yes, but we did one lesson in the Emotional Needs book first. (His Needs Her Needs)

We're on the first love buster this week, selfish demands.

The CD's that go with the books are wonderful as hubs has time to listen but not much time to read. Also the book and CD seem to repeat things but that's OK as it helps us learn and retain more when important things are repeated.
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