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Prisca is one of our best examples of how she handled markos's AOs.

Please read. Angry Outbursts


FWW/BW (me)
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Background:
Wife in 30+yr marriage. Somewhat familiar with MB as I have read and tried to implement some years ago but H wasn't interested. Of course marriage is no better...in fact worse with his Angry Outbursts. (not physical, only verbal)
I've withdrawn myself from him but still carry on daily life. (homemaker and keep the grand kid several days a week while the kids work.) He hasn't had an AO's since I've limited my communication time and face time with him. I'm considering moving out but it will most likely take several months at least to make arrangements and I don't want to unless I really have to.

SO...any advice for getting him to agree to do the course and really do it? (Not just go through the motions) I like the online course as it has some accountability and I'm not the "mean guy" making sure everything gets done right. H is not honest all the time and is very good at saying what he thinks people want to hear so needs someone to hold him accountable.

And just because this post sounds so cold.....I'll say this...I've been through this verbal abuse for years and most of the time can put up a tough front. I also know that I have made many mistakes (disrespect to him) that have a huge impact on the overall picture. Bottom line: Now is the time for change. Not because I look forward to all the work involved either way, staying or going but because I can't live this way anymore and be healthy emotionally or physically.


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BrainHurts: I did and thank you.
I didn't know it but that's my response to H's AO's.
I don't say a word then I get where I can not hear him. (Unless I can't like in a moving vehicle. Thus the reason I don't want to go anywhere with him.)
However, after the last really bad one (Where he yelled that he wished I just leave and find someone else) I did come back in the house (after I'd had some time to cry and pray in the barn) and told him how hateful that was and totally uncalled for. (I was so stressed out I don't remember my exact words but felt God helped me speak the truth in love instead of blasting away with some hotheaded response.) I think I asked him if he was trying to make me leave because that's what it felt like.
I've asked him before if there's someone else and he says there isn't. I believe him because his job takes most of his time and he has back issues that seem to decrease his drive. I wondered about online porn but he doesn't seem to be trying to hide anything from me. He knows to delete history when done browsing but he's not what I'd term "computer savvy" so if there are other ways to check/monitor I could try them. (I would have to learn what to do as I've not done anything like it before.)
He's not being hateful to me now. In fact seems to be making a little more effort now to "spend time" with me. (a few minutes before he goes to bed) and keeps telling me he loves me once a day or so even though I seldom return the words.


Last edited by ShineOn; 08/28/15 02:18 AM.

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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: LearnedTooLate
No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

It is not true that both spouses must participate in the telephone coaching service, if that is what the original poster meant by "counselling".

There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:

1. You can write to Dr Harley at the radio show, and he will answer your email, including follow-up questions. It is common for only one spouse to seek help, and the participation of the other spouse is not required (although, obviously, it would be ideal). Dr Harley's wife Joyce invites some of the people who have written in to speak to them on the radio show, but you do not have to do this, and you will still get help from Dr Harley. Dr Harley is always keen to hear from the reluctant spouse, and he and Joyce will encourage you to seek their participation, but this often does not happen, and help is still effective. This is free.

Many people write to Dr Harley with no intention of going of the show, and he answers their questions without reading the email on the show. This, as I said, is free, and does not require the other spouse to participate.

2. You can pay for telephone coaching with one of Dr Harley's children, who run the telephone service; his daughter Dr Jennifer Chalmers, or his son Steve Harley. You cannot speak to Dr Harley himself via this method. Again, it is common for only one spouse to use this service. The whole point is that they are often trying to get help with a withdrawn spouse, who by definition is not interested in working on the marriage. Jennifer and Steve will usually make suggestions to get the other spouse on board, but they will coach one spouse for as long as necessary. The service is expensive, at about $200 per hour, but it is designed to change behaviour and be effective on the marriage as quickly as possible - hence its description as "coaching" and not "counselling". The goal is not to talk for years on end, but to act, quickly, on the marriage.

3. Finally there is the online course. This is the Home Study course, which is designed for couples to do by themselves (and which costs very little), but with the online version, the couple is assigned a coach who is trained and closely supervised by Dr Harley. The couple completes lessons from the Home Study course (e.g they work on eliminating a specific love buster that they identified as a problem, they report on their progress to each other and the coach, and when the problem is eliminated they move on to the next lesson). The online course costs about $1000 and is designed to take one year to complete. The couple is sent a wealth of Dr Harley's books, CDs and questionnaires as part of the package, and they are given lifelong access to the private forum on this site, where they can post questions directly to Dr Harley. While they are completing the course, they have access to their coach by telephone (as well as email).

The online course is the only coaching that must be done by both spouses. One spouse should not attempt to sign up to the course if they have an uninterested spouse who will not participate.


My apologies for only thinking of the online, for couples to do together, program.

Sugar Cane obviously presented the other options that are so readily available and inexpensive or free to boot.

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OH LTL...but I think you recommended the best one for our situation! Your input is appreciated. :-)


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Originally Posted By: ShineOn
OH LTL...but I think you recommended the best one for our situation! Your input is appreciated. :-)


Thank you. My mind was set in only the one track option mode, without looking further outside the box for other possibilities.

It would never be my intent to steer someone into an option that is unfeasible.

I am Sooo Grateful that Sugar Cane properly and promptly supplied the much needed different methods to get you started on a positive path.

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Oh common...I know there are women on here who have successfully completed the MB training material with a reluctant husband and perhaps even some hubbys on here who were slow to agree but are glad they did?!


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I told him that I would separate if he did not start with these principles. I didn't detail more than that - I kept it brief and I was dead serious (I really was). I admit, ShineOn, that our marriage was much younger than yours (I was pregnant with a toddler), and I understand that would be a big upheaval for you and your long-term marriage.

But keep in mind, Dr. Harley has observed women do not tolerate neglect the same as men. Men can take a lot more, emotionally. For affairs, men try to win back a spouse for six months. It's three WEEKS for women.

If you are already unwell, it may be worth considering if you need to leave. That doesn't mean divorce, it means taking steps to protect yourself.

BTW, our marriage is great today, three years later, but he knows how close it came.

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Originally Posted By: alis
(I was pregnant with a toddler)

Yikes! shocked


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: alis
(I was pregnant with a toddler)

Yikes! shocked


Oh dear!

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Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Oh common...I know there are women on here who have successfully completed the MB training material with a reluctant husband and perhaps even some hubbys on here who were slow to agree but are glad they did?!


I think the only thing one can do is try to sell it to them. I mean, what is in it for him Shine? Does HE want a better relationship or is he just fine with the way things are?

What kind of things would you know that would temp him? It is different for everyone so only you may know this. (Such as my H really wanted a say in my spending & with this program... He got to have a say)

If tempting them wont work.... Then the only alternative is separation.

I was in the online course and can already tell you that Dr Harley would tell you to see a lawyer just in case but to kick HIM out of the marital home with a letter detailing that he must seek anger management now before anything else will be addressed. That you should plan on this taking at minimum a year just to practice his new habits.
This is what I did.
Change the locks, pack a bag for him & leave a letter for him outside the house. Then if he blows up- call the police.
Legally he would still have to take care of you but it would be up to him to find a place to live.

Its just those 2: tempt him into it or kick him out. There are no other ways that work.

*just please don't "talk" and grovel/beg for it.... Even if he agreed by that- they wont follow through.*


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"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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I would advise to check your legal rights before kicking anyone out

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Originally Posted By: alis
I told him that I would separate if he did not start with these principles. I didn't detail more than that - I kept it brief and I was dead serious (I really was). I admit, ShineOn, that our marriage was much younger than yours (I was pregnant with a toddler), and I understand that would be a big upheaval for you and your long-term marriage.

But keep in mind, Dr. Harley has observed women do not tolerate neglect the same as men. Men can take a lot more, emotionally. For affairs, men try to win back a spouse for six months. It's three WEEKS for women.

If you are already unwell, it may be worth considering if you need to leave. That doesn't mean divorce, it means taking steps to protect yourself.

BTW, our marriage is great today, three years later, but he knows how close it came.


LOL about the preg w/ toddler. :-)Thanks for the chuckle.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. The comment about men and women handling neglect different is very insightful. I've had to tell H NOT to tease me like the guys at work. (They do things to make each other mad then laugh about it the next day....)
I've learned that being as brief as possible, staying on subject and not getting emotional is the best way to communicate when trying to accomplish something.

Thank you too for the comment about protecting myself. That's exactly the mode I feel I'm in now. I don't want to seem hateful or rude or that I don't love him as of course I still do deep down but it's past time for things to change and nothing I've tried thus far has worked.

I am trying to get some animals of mine sold so I am more free to go if I need to. I've looked into living options and currently like the idea of a travel trailer. Affordable and easy to relocate. Not sure about a transportation vehicle though. I've considered where to live to have good options for part time employment and still be close enough to keep my granddaughter....if the kids would permit me to do so and I think they would.

I guess I'm saying all that to say this. A threat isn't much of a threat unless the other party feels there's a good chance of follow through. I'm trying to be prepared so I can follow through if it comes to that but it will take me months to be ready to move out and I'd like to start the program asap. (Patience is something God is constantly working with me on.) My H takes time to think on things...as I believe many men do so it wouldn't surprise me at all if I have to be gone some time for him to miss me enough to work it out. I hope I'm wrong of course. Sometimes their bark is worse than their bite. I know he hates to do laundry. LOL I pray he sees the marriage as worth saving. I think he will if I can just somehow make him understand that we BOTH NEED help.

So glad your marriage is happy now. Did you do the online course? Did your H do it resentfully at first?


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Quote:
I think the only thing one can do is try to sell it to them. I mean, what is in it for him Shine? Does HE want a better relationship or is he just fine with the way things are?


He is fine with the way things were....I don't think he'll be fine for too long with the way things are now but time will tell. I just don't want him thinking I'm withdrawn because I'm cheating or don't love him. I have told him the reason I don't talk to him on the phone when he does his daily check in is because he gets angry so often.

Tonight he was angry again because I want to float tomorrow and may not have anyone to go with me. I plan to check with the rental place and see if they have several groups going and if so I feel OK to go. (I'm an experienced floater and this is a novice level part of the river) H was asking me questions about my plans and using his irritated voice. He had a very long pause at which I remained totally silent then he said his brief goodbyes and hung up. That's better than him blowing up on me. Maybe he'll think it over and decide to be civil and just ask me nicely not to go if he's not comfortable with it.

Quote:
What kind of things would you know that would temp him? It is different for everyone so only you may know this. (Such as my H really wanted a say in my spending & with this program... He got to have a say)


I wish I could think of something...I'm totally blank. I don't have a paying job. I keep the house and the kid and H and manage the finances. I've asked him to be more involved with finances but he leaves it to me. He's very passive when it comes to relationships...which he probably things is "being nice" and I see it as too lazy to do his part. I don't know of anything that he'd really like for me to start or stop doing that would make him agree to this. The leaving is all I can think of.

He doesn't mind me going and doing stuff by myself (as I have often in our marriage)Between his health issues and sleep issues and little time due to his job, it was rare for us to actually spend "fun" time together. He seems happy for me to be alone most of the time. and to leave me alone most of the time. The only thing he seems unhappy with is that I don't say "I love you" and don't kiss/hug him goodbye or ask him for sex or for snuggle time. (I've been turned down often...and I don't mean I asked every day either. Also with his anger issues I'm just not OK with making love to someone that's probably going to bite my head off the next day and someone who can't keep promises he makes to me....etc, etc....)

Quote:
If tempting them wont work.... Then the only alternative is separation.

That's what I was coming up with too. frown

Quote:
I was in the online course and can already tell you that Dr Harley would tell you to see a lawyer just in case but to kick HIM out of the marital home with a letter detailing that he must seek anger management now before anything else will be addressed. That you should plan on this taking at minimum a year just to practice his new habits.
This is what I did.
Change the locks, pack a bag for him & leave a letter for him outside the house. Then if he blows up- call the police.
Legally he would still have to take care of you but it would be up to him to find a place to live.


I don't think it's to this point yet. Of course if he was getting physical at all or if I felt there was nothing I could do to stop or avoid his outbursts I'm sure this would be a great plan. I'm glad you had the fortitude to do it and keep yourself safe. I hope things worked out for both of you.

Quote:
*just please don't "talk" and grovel/beg for it.... Even if he agreed by that- they wont follow through.*

I'm noticing that talking (especially to someone who's use to ignoring me) doesn't do much except frustrate me and give him a target for his anger or ammo for the next argument. I'm pretty much done talking unless I have something pretty major to say. I don't beg or grovel. I haven't allowed him to make me feel that small but believe me it's been an interesting struggle! It's hard for me to understand why/how you can marry someone you love and then have to defend against them destroying you emotionally and psychologically. Perhaps he feels the same? I know I've not been perfect and will need to work on myself also.

Thank you for taking the time to reply and share your suggestions/experiences!


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Originally Posted By: KPT
I would advise to check your legal rights before kicking anyone out


Good advice....but don't think I'll be going that route unless I'm in for an ugly surprise. I don't like ugly surprises but they do sometimes pop up.:-/


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Quote:
Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling?

You need to first prepare for a separation. Get yourself financially independent and have a new place lined up for yourself to live.

Then present him with the MB program. Give him that chance to do what it takes to keep you. If he refuses, then separate immediately.

If he has ONE MORE AO, separate immediately, even if you aren't fully prepared to separate. Insist that he goes to anger management for at least a year before you will consider living with him again. Insist that he talks to Dr. Harley (he can do that free, so if he won't even do that, I'm not sure he's worth recovering with). Dr. Harley can help you decide if and when your husband has truly eliminated his AOs and is safe to be around again.

What separation will do in your case is speed up what's already going to happen -- if he's ever going to step up to the plate to do what it takes to keep you, this will speed it up. But if he never was going to anyway, this will spare you the pain of watching your marriage slowly die.

Originally Posted By: ShineOn
I've asked him before if there's someone else and he says there isn't. I believe him because his job takes most of his time and he has back issues that seem to decrease his drive. I wondered about online porn but he doesn't seem to be trying to hide anything from me. He knows to delete history when done browsing but he's not what I'd term "computer savvy" so if there are other ways to check/monitor I could try them. (I would have to learn what to do as I've not done anything like it before.)

Don't trust him on this. Even non-tech savvy people can hide things online -- my husband is a computer programmer that works on a genius level, and I still was able to hide things from him.

So, get some spyware on his computer and phone. Get a VAR and put it in his car. You might consider a PI that can follow him if none of that turns anything up. Verify for certain that there isn't anybody else.


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What to do with an Angry Husband

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One other thought:
You should get a free consult with a lawyer...

You get half of all assets- half of all retirment, you will be entitled to his social security, maybe alimony and you might find yourself in a good position finacially where you can still help watch your grandaugter....

It is always a good idea to become educated on a decision that needs to be made (you arent filing, no paperwork just info gathering)
I think you would feel really good after you find out what you could walk away with.

And I would also put a keylogger on his computer.


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"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Quote:
Q: I've been spending a lot of time reading MB. Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling? I *think* the online course may work for us...IF he will be honest with himself and the person we're assigned to work with.
I'm thinking the way to get him to agree to the course may be that if he doesn't I'm moving out. This will take some time though as I have many things that need to be done, finding homes for animals, housing, etc. I'd like more input on this point though so hope to find in previous threads or start a new thread to learn more.


ShineOn,

As a formerly reluctant husband with an anger problem (among others) I can say that nothing changes ones direction like running into a solid wall. She drew a line and said "things must change,I can't go on like this." It was/is very painful to hear such things but sometimes it's the only thing that works.

We are currently in the middle of the MB home study course. It's been a rough ride and sometimes it feels like we're barely treading water. At the beginning of the program I had no hope of my own that MB could make a difference for us. I was acting/moving forward entirely on faith in what others were saying. But today, halfway through this part, I am feeling somewhat hopeful. This program does work if followed in it's entirety.

I just want to confirm what the other posters are telling you, nothing other than a solid wall of resolve is likely to get his attention. Then he will either choose to work on your relationship or it will be over.

These folks give excellent advice.

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Great post, Pearlseeker!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Wow, Pearlseeker, what a great post!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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