Hi everyone. Today was a bad day and maybee a good day. I need some advice on where to go from here.

My main thread and story are on "just found out" at this link.

my story and main venting thread

So here goes the current state of things. After several days of no calls and just seeing the OM at work, WW started calling him again yesterday. Today, she left for work wearing a dress and no hose and came home the same way. When I went to her (used to be our room) with her clothers onn the bed were stockings and matching underwear (nothing she even wears for me). She had left early for work and got home late.

I didn't want to LB, but given the bad day I was having I couldn't resist a small comment. So I said "I guess the hose must have been uncomfortable, you were not wearing them when you got home". I left it at that but she was obviously not happy.

later this evening, she confronted me and wanted to know if I was checking up on her. I said no I just noticed and it is up to you decide if an explanation is needed. I told her I was done checking up on her, she knows how I feel and she can make her own decisions. She dropped the subject, but said she felt I was checking up on her and she did not like it. (I know serious fog..when you are hiding something).

We then actually talked quite a bit. She stated that the OM was not the source of our problems and that it was irrelevant. I acknowledged that my withdrawal from her in the past was a large part of the problem and she was correct that our problems preceded the OM.

But I did tell her that I had two issues with the OM. First I told her that it was causing me pain, and moving us further apart. Second, I did not know how we could work on the real problems when three people were involved. I also reminded her that the marriage counsleor said she had to make a choice. She stated that she did not like the counselor and that is why she doesn't want to back (translated...I did not like what he had to say about the EA/PA)

I then asked her what she was going to do. Her response was that she was not going to committ to giving him up or continuing to see him. She then stated that she wanted to still be freinds with him. I told her that if we ever head down the path of reconciliation, i would expect her to leave her job. She complained that I was asking her to ruin her career (more fog, just in January she was looking for another job and her career is so mobile she could get anotehr job in a matter of days).

Needless to say she stated that her biggest problem lies in the bitterness she feels toward me. In essence she states that she was and still is devasted by the lack of attention and support that I gave her in the past. I freely admit I was not the best husband (no abuse), but I was only meeting one or two of her ENs and they were not the most important ones.

I do feel good that we talked some, this is the first time she has initiated any conversation at all. I did a good job not asking any questions (she always refuses to answer and gets mad). She did a lot of crying while we talked and other than telling her she eventually would have to leave her job there were no LBs.

My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish. She is going out of town for the next five days to see her family (I hope the time away is good for clearing her mind). I have acknowledged her pain and my failure to meet her ENs and am working on myslef.

Thanks for any thoughts.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: onwardandup ]</small>

By the way...I'm exhausted and going to bed, but I will respond at length (what else to do when WW and daughter are gone for several days [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: onwardandup ]</p>

Onwardandup<p>I am pasting Still Seeking's excellent post from your other thread because I beleive that it contains so many good, practical tips that can help you in carrying out a near perfect plan A that it deserves re reading.<p>Joe<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Still Seeking:<strong>
"Remember that plan A does not bring them back, it makes it possible for them to want to be with you when the Affair falls apart ( 90 something percent of them end within 18 months, I can't find the actual number ) The WS finally realizes that in "real life" the OP is worse than the spouse is - because you have been using plan A and they realize you are the one they want to live with. But it often takes a lot of time. <p>Try what I have been doing, each week think of something that you are going to do for her to fill her needs that you don't normally do. This last week I cleaned the bathroom in our bedroom. She went on and on about how I didn't need to do it and that she was about to do it anyway. I just told her that I did it because I loved her, no strings attached. Finally she shut up about it. Yesterday she invited me to the bedroom (during her monthly cycle - its been years ! ) I asked her where that came from - she said " I just wanted to show you I love you." <p>So plan A is starting to show dividends for me - after 3 months ( or 3 1/2 ? actually, its close to 4 if I stop and figure. But like I said in an earlier post, every day is not like that. <p>I recommend a long term written plan. If she will tell you her needs, that's better, but if not, figure them out by how she reacts to what you do. Keep notes, you will forget. It's tough with all you are doing, but you need to do it. Write down what you plan to do, what you actually do, how she reacts. Review it weekly, keep a journal so to speak. Record your feelings, many use this forum to do it in a loose manner but I recommend you be more specific in private. <p>Why do this? It helps smooth out the downs, helps you see that there are good times, over time, you can see progress - more ups than downs and the ups last longer and are better than the downs. Like a jagged graph going gently up. It helps you stay on plan."
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At least I just need to plan A hard for the next two days and then I get a break to recharge my batteries.
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"I have explained to my wife that I am trying to change my habits ( plan A and no LB's ) but that I am not perfect yet and that when I give a lot and get little It makes it hard on me. Since I have made a commitment to change, and not be demanding or angry so I just detach for a day or two. She asks me what is wrong and I just say " I am having a hard time, just leave me alone for a day or so." Since I have explained it to her, she knows what is going on and lets me recharge. Note that it is easier now, she has started to respond."
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One interesting thing she said tonight was that she felt I still had anxiety problems about her being uncertain as to what her decision would be. DUH...I must have married a rocket scientist.
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"You need to be honest about your feelings. Not not in a demanding or angry way. But when she makes comments like this, you need to tell her how you feel. " Yes, I am hurting, I know you have feelings for OM, I know you call him. It hurts me because I love you and want to stay married you." Then re-assure her that you will cope and be OK in the end no matter what - but that you hope that things work out."
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I want to get on with my life with her or without her, and she seems happy to keep things the way they are. I am beginning to dread her being away for five days esp. with my daughter. I still want her in my life, but the tank is always getting lower on fuel.
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
"From what you describe, she has already chosen you. She is including you in her plans, she asks you for input. This does not look like the ones that leave and never come back. I think she has chosen you but is waiting to see if she has made the right choice. She will have withdrawal pains, she has invested some of her heart in the OP. Help her just like if she was getting off alcohol or drugs. She needs the same help and support - and love. <p>You can do this, You can. ( prayer is the best help for me, since I found there was someone on the other end)<p>One good thing about her being gone - she may find she is really glad to see you when she comes back. I agree about giving a good plan A for 2 days. Don't ask her not to call / contact him while she is gone, don't even bring it up. Just love her. I have found that many small things in plan A do more than a few big ones. ( but I do big ones sometimes too.) <p>Good Luck,
SS" <p></strong><hr></blockquote>

Up...for more thoughts on where she is and and what if anything to do.

Sorry that you had a bad/good day. It is amazing how many ups and downs one day can bring. I am very depressed this morning myself. I am surprised I got to work without crashing my car into a brick wall. My lows just keep getting lower it seems, and I am still unable to put even a halfway productive day in at work.<p>To answer the following big question first:
"My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish."
IMHO and at the risk of being harsh, security (financial support) is typically high up on a womens EN list. Where is this on your wife's EN list? Remeber though that your wife filled this EN list out when she was in a fog. I am not sure how accurate the EN list is. Additionally, she may regret you for not provideing her with the oportunity to be a stay at home mom and to spend time with her daughter. You probably will want to probe this with her. Be understanding though and be prepared for her to say that she regrets you for this, just in case. You will probably need to work this information out of her because she may be scared that she will hurt your feelings. How much school do you have left? How long have you been married? How much of that time have you been in school? What were the circumstances with you going back to school? I could be off base here, but sometimes the most obvious thing is often the real culprit.<p>My wife will not give up the OM either. You need to try to understand and come to grip with the fact that she is going to see him and continue her relationship with him until the A dies a natural death.<p>You may think that you did not LB very much by bringing up the hose issue, but you did. You need to get to the point were you can accept what she is doing to you and forgive her for what she is going to do and has done and truly love her unconditionally. This will help you not to LB. However, this is very difficult to do. I have to address this daily for myself to keep going.<p>It sounds like your Plan A is having an effect. Are you two not in the same bedroom now? Anyway, try not to take her EN questionare too literally. She is in a fog and may not be able to answer this. I filled this thing out several times, and depending how I feel on a given day, I get different answers. Experiment filling different EN's and do those that have the most effect. Do you take care of most everything around the house since you are home more. If you
do then doing extra around the house may not have an impact. I do alot around the house too, vacume, dishes, pick up the house, etc. I have noticed that if I do more of this, it does not make any difference. I have also noticed planning nights out with my WW makes a huge difference. Get a baby sitter and take your WW out to dinner. I am taking my wife to a concert this weekend. Major brownie points!! Experiment to see what you do has the greatest impact and do more of that to fill that EN.<p>Talking intimate with your wife like you have been is extremely important. You need intimate conversation for you to turn things around. Right now the OM is a major part of your WW and she needs someone to talk about all that she is going through. Try to encourage her to talk about the OM and show appreciation when she does and understanding. She will open if you make her feel comfortable when she shares these things with you. I was able to get my wife to tell me who had bigger genitals (found out his was slightly bigger, but he has erectile disfunction. YES!!!! She said even a few times he could not even do it.) She shared these things with me because I encourage her and show interest and put my poker face on if it embarasess me. She is sharing everything with me know and it is drawing her closer to me. However, I think it is doing a number on me.<p>Concentrate on filling the EN's that make the biggest difference and try to get her to talk openly with you. I think that this will make the biggest difference in helping replace the bad memories with good ones. Start planning special events with her. It makes her feel great!!<p>Good luck and keep posting.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She dropped the subject, but said she felt I was checking up on her and she did not like it. (I know serious fog..when you are hiding something). <hr></blockquote><p>It is usually this way long past the end of the A. It is a habit, and right now, it is one she doesn't even know she has, let alone want to work on it. Its just what they all do. <p>My wife told me this morning that " you are meeting all of my needs but I can't change my feelings overnight." Last night I expressed my feelings of love for her and she could tell I wanted attention and affection and she said, " Am I safe with you or not." In other words, LEAVE ME ALONE. So we both woke up early and she was in the mood to talk and I got the above as the reason why - I can't change her feelings overnight. <p>YOU can't change HER feelings overnight either. In fact, we are not supposed to try to do that. We are supposed to be in this for the long haul. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I then asked her what she was going to do. Her response was that she was not going to commit to giving him up or continuing to see him. She then stated that she wanted to still be friends with him. I told her that if we ever head down the path of reconciliation, i would expect her to leave her job. <hr></blockquote><p>1. She can't tell you what she is going to do, in her conscience mind, she doesn't know. Some of us reading your story feel from the signs you are giving that she will come back to you. But you can't ask her that. Repeat after me " I CAN'T ASK HER WHAT SHE IS GOING TO DO." <p>2. What you want most of all, is for her to give up OM. Almost all your thoughts (some days, most nights ) are about this. It's normal (OK, its abnormal as can be, but its what happens in this situation) , it drives you crazy, it prevents you from thinking straight. It's only right and proper for her to give him up, but SHE IS NOT THINKING RIGHT AND PROPER, SO DON'T GO THERE. <p>3. When she comes to you and says" OK, I have been messed up, I don't know what I was thinking, how can we put this marriage back together. " Or, if you go to a plan B and give her a plan B letter then you can bring up her having no contact. But, otherwise, you should just plan A and wait. <p>I KNOW IT'S HARD, YOU JUST HAVE TO DO IT. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Needless to say she stated that her biggest problem lies in the bitterness she feels toward me. In essence she states that she was and still is devastated by the lack of attention and support that I gave her in the past. I freely admit I was not the best husband (no abuse), but I was only meeting one or two of her ENs and they were not the most important ones. <hr></blockquote><p>What a gift she gave you when she told you that ! ! Most BS's would be so glad to have reasons for what was going on. So give her the attention and support, you'll get her back. ( can you stand to wait 6 months or a year , can you take the strain? ) If you take it, I believe you will get her back. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish. <hr></blockquote><p>Look, this is basic MB stuff. I, ( we) all have these feelings. I'm going to repeat myself some, but here goes: <p>1. It takes time for the A to end, and doesn't always go how we want. <p>2. It takes time for the bitterness to go away. It came slowly, over time, it will leave the same way. <p>3. Just because the first two are fact, doesn't mean nothing positive is happening. <p>4. Just because the first two are fact, doesn't mean she doesn't love YOU. All the signs are that she does. <p>5. She does want to end the A. That crying she did during your talk should mean something to you. BUT, she has an addiction, all the logic in the world ( what you try and use to bring her back) won't work. Logic and discussions don't cure additions, people that have them know they need to quit. They just can't do it sometimes. (read SAA) <p>6. What will work, is love, patience, forgiveness, lack of anger and more love. <p>7. Read SAA again, then at least a chapter weekly. <p>8. Read HNHN and LB's again, then review weekly. <p>9. It will get to you, you would not be a normal person if it did not. When it does and you have a bad day tell yourself ( like I do) " I can get through today, tomorrow will be better." Say that over and over till tomorrow. Tomorrow has always been better. Always. <p>These negative feelings are going to come to you over and over and over. Come back and we'll tell you the same things again. We all need to hear it. <p>It is sooooo hard. It really is. But you can do it ! You can!
Say, did you ever hear the story of the little engine that could ????

BTW, I second what dreamland said. In fact, I kind of said some of it over.(sorry dreamland) But we all need to hear it over and over.

Thanks for the support. <p>I have to mow the lawn now, it isn't raining and the exercise will do me well. I have a lot of thoughts about what has been said and I'll reply shortly.

Check out the divorce busting website and read up on the walk-away wife syndrome. It sounds to me like your wife is expressing some of those symptoms -- long seeded resentment, and an unwillingness to let down her walls.<p>I felt the same way.

Well here I am again (way too much lawn to mow) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This morning I was as nice to her as could be. I tried to snuggle in the bed (she wasn't very interested). I made blueberry pancakes for her (she loves these), helped her get stuff together and packed the car. I gave her a hug and told her to have a good time and that I love her (no response).<p>My SIL called in response to the letter I sent her and we talked for two hours. I am not sure how much of the story she knows and told her she could stop me if she wanted. I related everything that is going on and how I feel. I let her know that I still love WW and wanted to work things out. I told her that I have taken responsibility for my actions that led to where we are today. I didn't ask her to talk to WW for me, I just wanted to let her know how I felt. I also let her know that although WW is bitter towards me, the current situation is taking a toll on me. I told her I was prepared to wait things out, but not forever. In all I think it was a good call and was not damaging or a LB.<p>WW has called twice from the road, once to let me know about traffic and a second time to get directions. When she called the second time, I told her that I talked to her sister. She was mad because I relayed a story about thier father and his continuing contact with ex-wife #2 (the one who broke-up him with thier mom) and his giving her money. She stated that she had not told her sister because she knew she would not take it well. I appologized for sharing the story, I thought she had told her sister. She said that she realized I did not do it on purpose. I told her I mainly talked to her sister about my issues and that I am comfortable talking about me.<p>I will reply to the messages in another post.

Dreamland<p>Sorry about the ups and downs (amazing that we can all be going through some of the same feelings). As for the financial security, you are right on target. She has stated that she is very angry with me for going to school and was much happier when I made a lot of money. The big problem is that we talked about this decison and I told her I would not go if she did not approve. She approved and here we are, but she now says she never approved and has been angry ever since.<p>We have been married just over seven years and I have just completed (almost - one class incomplete) my first year of Ph.D. In all reality I have at least two more years and probably three to go. I do not pay tuition (full scholarship) and recieve a small paycheck (around 20K/yr)and excellent health insurance for the whole family. I had been working for myslef and that was not rewarding financially or personnally for a few years - so back to school was a change for the better. When we were engaged and just married I was in school getting a MBA. After that I had a very good job (80K+) and we used the money for WW to get an advanced degree also. I have told her I am willing to work some while in school to help out and this is something I am checking into.<p>As for the same bedroom, I have been exiled for a month I quess. Some mornings I come in and we snuggle (yes and we have been intimate a few times). A couple of times we have slept together, but in the morning she seems to regret this (in some ways she wants to keep her walls up).<p>As for ENs it is difficult to know what is most important. I think affection, financial support, converstion are up there but hard to tell. I think I'll just have to try and see what works. I want to have conversations, but most of the time she just clams-up. I guess I just need to wait for her to want to talk.<p>One last thing...I'm having difficulty with the unconditional love concept. I realize LBing is not unconditional love and I do feel I have unconditional love for her otherwise I would not be here. But how does unconditional love relate to the love bank. It seems that even with unconditional love we could all reach a breaking point and go to plan B or get a divorce. If you could help me with this, I would appreciate it.

Lexxxy - <p>I think there is some parrallels with her behavior and the walk-away wife syndrone. I will go back to the DB site and look some more. I got one of the books but haven't have the chance to read it yet. At least she hasn't completely gone yet, and I have the chance to work my plan A.<p>Still Seeking - <p>I realy appreciate the comments you have given me. They always resonate and help me get my focus back. I especialy appreciate the fact that you see encouraging signs in things (I usually don't so this helps).<p>As you can see in my other posts and response to Dreamland, there are many issues and although I haven't discovered all of them I do have some hints where to work. The financial support is a big one and hopefully I can help with that this summer (I just don't want to bite off too much since my I don't have it all togther and I know there will be bad days).<p>I general it is hard not to get down on yourself and loose you focus on the big picture and the fact that you are tying to save your marriage. The suggestions you have make sense, I am keeping a personal journal of what works and what doesn't, and I will go back to re-read the books. Thank you, it is nice to know people care, especially with all the crap each of us is enduring oursleves.

About unconditional love, I posted below a few days ago. Not much of a response. I do not think anyone wants to here this kind of stuff. Let me know what you think:<p>I have been trying to deal with all of this and have found another way to gain strength for Plan A and to feel happier. It all comes down to the question "What does true love have to do with all of this?" Well I have summarized my opinion about LOVE and I would like some comments or criticisms. Please have at it and do not hold anything back. Give me your opinion. Below is mine and I may be way off base here:<p>Everyone seems to be throwing the word "love" around using it generically for all types of love. Unfortunately the English language has only one word, which means four different types of love. We seem to confusing "feelings of love" with real love. The love that is keeping my WW and I together has nothing to do with the feelings that we talk about when we mention Love Bank. The love that is true is unconditional. All too often we all want to "feel good" about our spouse and we feel neglected when the spouse does not make us feel good. Well life is not all a bunch of good smelling flowers (obviously). When we said till death do us part, for richer or poorer, in sickness etc. where we really serious here or just mouthing the words. Of course we were serious, otherwise none of us would be at this website trying to make things work, and if you are here just for the children, then you are here for the wrong reasons. If the Love Bank was all that love is about, there would be no need for this forum. None of us would be with our spouses right now. <p>Does this mean we should put up with all the crap our WS's give us. Of course not. We do what Dr. Harley says, Plan A, Plan B etc., and if none of this will work to fix our marriages we consider cutting our losses. We are not expected to be emotionally abused throughout our entire life’s. <p>Just remember, if none of the Plan A is coming from the heart, it will be very difficult to work. Plan A to be effective and to prevent LB's needs to be an outward expression of the heart. I have learned that if I can't come to a point where I can love my wife unconditionally, then whenever I find out she is seeing OM or calling OM I do some major LB'ing. <p>I have to work to get to this kind of love because this kind of love is a heart felt decision.<p>Here is a distinction between the different types of love and how important true love is in all of this not just romantic love. Romantic types of love (the Love Bank) are fleeting and conditional and must be reinforced by true love for marriage to work. It is not enough to have romantic love in a marriage. Remember that the WS has romantic love for the OP. When the light shines on the romantic love, the romantic love dissolves and since there is no real love, the relationship dies, or so we hope.<p>If anyone researches the bible, you will know that the Greeks had four words to describe our one word love:<p>Eros: Sexual passionate love
Storge: Natural bonding love with children, etc.
Phileo: Love of affection.
Agape: Unconditional Love. Love that God has for us.<p>Agape love is the love that will keep a relationship together forever. I think this is the love we need to revive for our WS in order to get the EROS and PHILEO working properly. The first day after D-day I had to determine if I still had Agape love for my WW. I saw that it was there and I have been working on keeping this alive in me ever since.<p>Well love is so complicated, I am sure there is much more to it then this.<p>Since this post, I have decided that Agape love increases when we decide to work through trials and troubles together in life and decide that the WW is worth trying for. That is why I think that I feel more love for my wife now then before D-day.

Dreamland,<p>Harley, doesn't believe in Unconditional love. That is why it is necessary to met your spouses needs. If you don't the love dies and they move on. It is also why it is possible to rebuild a marriage. Love is conditional. It is conditional on the other person meeting needs and being the sort of person someone wants to be around.<p>Plan A is NOT about unconditional needs because if you do it long enough, you will find your love bank going empty and there will be no love left. That is why there is a plan B. Plan B slows the drainage of love from you. You see if your W's A ends and she wants to try again, it probably won't be out of love, but rather guilt.<p>If you have fallen out of love with her by that time, you won't want to rebuild either. More precisely you won't be able to either. Marriage is for sure over.<p>You will always have feelings for your W no matter what happens, but love. No it will die. What is supposed to be forever, is commitment to the wedding vows. Why do you think people make "vows" before God, family, and friends. It is because marriage is not easy, love does come and go, but the institution encourages you to hang in there because YOU made a vow.<p>So, no I don't agree with you that love is unconditional. It is very conditional and that is why you are in the place you are. That is why there is hope for your marriage and rebuilding it.<p>Hang in there, this will take awhile, but it can work.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Quick update, WW called agian last evening when I was out. We talked for a while about nothing of any significance. I had called her back several hours after she called and said I was out. Her immediate response was to ask where were you. I told her I was at my nephew's soccer match. It is kind of interesting that she was so interested in where I was and what I was doing, while she is offended when I ask where she is. It was a perfect opportunity to make a comment or pick a fight, but I didn't and just let it go. Sometimes it is so hard to understand what she is thinking. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for unconditional love. Like you Dreamland I have found that my love for WW is stronger through all of these troubles. If love was nothing but a love bank and her meeting my needs was necessary to maintain my love then I would be gone. But I am not, so there is something beyond the love bank. <p>But I also think unconditional love is a decision. It is a decision to choose to love someone despite the circumstances and thier withdrawls from our love bank. The key thing is to remember that it is a decision. In my case I will be willing to attempt a reconciliation up untill the day divorce papers are finalized. I don't think the sacrifice of pain and hurt that is endured by a BS can be justified by a reamining ballance in the love bank. If I am trying to meet someones needs who is abusing my needs it is because I have made that decsion. Part of this unconditional love for me is a realiztion that I can love with nothing in return. This love and sacrifice makes me feel good about myself, so that is why I can sustain it.<p>With this having been said, at some point my love bank (the emotional/conditional love) will need some satisfaction. Absent this I do have the choice to no longer offer unconditional love. I also have the ability to state my own feelings and not be a doormat while offering this unconditional love.<p>The Harleys may not believe in unconditional love, but it seems to me that to truely perform a good plan A it has to come from the heart and be your true intention. If it is only a plan to try and get your needs eventually filled, I think there is still some element of the taker (just a sneaky one). Yes, I do want my needs met, but knowing that there is a chance they may never be met in this relationship lets me push the taker aside. I have made my choice to try and work things out, I think this is closer to unconditional love than residual conditional/emotional/love bank love. This is just my opinion and how I feel about what I am doing. We could argue whether unconditional love is commitment, but I don't see the point. I don't need to have a perfect definition for what I am doing and feeling. I just need to know it comes from my heart and I have to feel good about myself and what I am doing.

Just Learning,<p>This very second, I have no feelings of love for my WW. By your definition of love, it is time to move on. That is why our divorce rate is so high. Society has nurtured the believe that we have the right to be happy all the time. <p>If my WW were to get deathly ill, and was unable to fill my emotional needs does this mean I should move. My marriage vows did not say, "only when we are feeling good about each other we will stay together." My marriage vows said "till death do us part." This was a concious heart felt decision to stay with my wife forever regardless. This concious heart felt decision is true love.<p>At the end of your post you said "God bless". Well, God commands H's to (Agape) Love their W's as he (Agape) loves the church. This love is an unconditional love. It does not depend upon whether or not our spouse happens to make us feel good. There will be many many times in a marriage where we will not feel good about our spouses. This will not be the only time.<p>Harley has simplified love and defined it as a "Love Bank" so that we can easily grasp an understanding of such a complicated thing so that we can understand the techniques required on how to love. Plan A is how to love, Plan A is NOT love. <p>Authors have written many books, poems, etc. to describe what love is and still have problems truly describing this. Do you really believe that love is this mechanical and simple? The love bank is a great way to describe why marriages break up and how to make marriages stay together. Do you really believe that this is all there is to the mechanics of marriage and relationships?<p>"That is why it is necessary to met your spouses needs."
If you truly (Agape) love your spouse, will you not want to meet your spouses needs. What Plan A gives us is the map on how to love. Some of this actually needs to be taught. If a child grew up with parents that slapped him around all the time, he would have a jaded view on how to love. If that same child, conversly, grew up in a loving nurturing home, he would show his love similiar to the way his parents showed love to him. Plan A teaches us how to love at a time where we do not want to love. Plan A we are to work on ourselves so that we can love like this without LB'ing. Working on yourself to me means learning how to love, and getting back to loving uncoditionally. My love for my wife now does not come from how she is making me feel right now. My love for my wife comes from inside. I will love my wife regardless of what she does.<p>The "vows" that we speak before man and god is not intended to put preasure on a couple to stay together. The vows are a demonstration of an inner love and comitment for your spouse. It is not the words you utter that keep the marriage together! <p>When I unconditionally love my wife, that will mean that no matter what she does to me, I will love her. So if she has another EA and PA, I will still love her. If she stabs me in the chest, and I slowly bleed to death. On my death bed, I will still love her. That does not mean, like God, that we allow our spouse to walk all over us and do mean terrible things to us. We set our boundaries to protect our feelings. We tell our spouses what hurts our feelings. If they continue to hurt our feelings and we are constantly feeling misrable, we have the option by the law of men to get a divorce. Does this mean I would no longer love my wife? No, I will still love my wife. I am just getting out of a situation that continues to hurt my feelings.<p>Well I appreciate the critism of my understanding of Love. It helps me work out in my head what exactly marriage and love is about. I do know that God's description of how I am required to love my wife is the way I will try to go, and in my opinion, this fits in with the Dr. Harley concept. If I (agape) love my wife, I will want and try to meet her EN's given the road map of Plan A, and if Plan A does not work, I will try Plan B.<p>We all have to ask ourselfs this question: "Am I manipulating or loving." If we are just doing Plan A without this (Agape) Love, then we could using instruments to sway people to do what we want them to do, and that is manipulation.

onwardandup,<p>I just read your post right after I posted. WELL SAID!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I was beginning to think I was the only one out there who thought this way.<p>About your earlier post which answered some of my questions about your post-graduate studies, how important to your career path is your post-graduate study. What is your career path? <p>(Well I am going to catch HE** for this question from some on this forum). Would you be willing to give up your studies to fill your wife's EN's? It may be necessary to save your marriage. I do not think it is necessary for the A to end. That will probably die regardless of the Plan Aing you are doing. Remember that even after the A ends, you have got a long journey for her to start feeling love for you again. It may be that filling all her other needs will not be enough. Her main emotional need may be financial support.<p>About your wife aproving of you going back to school, in a perfect world I agree that if she aproves she should stand by her approval. Unfortunately, women are not that honest with their feelings and fail to look foward in the future to see how this will affect them. I do not think you should blame your wife for aproving and now being mad about it. <p>About the sex, I have learned that if my wife is not emotionally attached to me, she will regret me for the sex. Let her come to you for sex. She will let you know when she is ready, and make sure that she is emotionally attached to you before sex. The sex (even though we need it for our EN's) will be a major LB if she is not attached and she may regret you for it. In my situation, the sex is awfull uncomfortable for us when she is not emotionally involved with me, so I decided not to go there until I know she is being very very responsive. However, some women can have sex for sex, but by the sound of it, your wife is not in that category.

As for my career path, what the plan was is for me to be a college professor. This is something that I want to do and in the long run it will certainly meet many of her emotional needs. I will have a lucrative salary, there will opportunity for travel, and my schedule will be extermely flexible (lots of free time and the ability to work at home during the academic year).<p>I have not considered giving this up since she has not asked for this and honestly speaking she has expressed that the outcome will be very good for her and me. As she has seen me having trouble coping with the state of our marriage, she has continued to be concerned about the progress in my schoolwork. I also do not have any idea what I would do otherwise that would be fulfilling. The big problem seems to be her need for immediate fulfillment so I know if I continue on with my studies there will be a problem for the next few years.<p>I'm not mad at her for how she feels about my studies right now (I understand), I guess the problem lies in the fact that we didn't communicate well in the first place. If we can't communicate and reach a mutual agreement then the same problems will surface again in the future. In some respects I am guilty of the same thing when I withdrew and did not meet her needs.<p>As for the sex, it is just a big question mark for me. When we are close, I am certainly in the mood and on occasion she is in the mood too. I know that SF is one of her big needs also and it was lacking in the past. Certianly if she is emotionally attached it will be good for both of us. The problem is knowing if she is attached and also that even if she feels good about it at the time, her emotional attachment is fleeting. I know my wife has a high sex drive. One of the things she says is that having sex with me makes her feel like she is getting sucked back in (she is letting some of walls down). In essence afterwards she is sometimes mad because she is not ready to recommitt. I will have to say that some of the sex we have had since all hell broke loose has been the best ever for both of us. It is just a big question since she feels that I did not want to have sex with her in the past. I feel like I at least need to express the fact that I enjoy being with her sexually and want to meet her needs (This is how I feel and I am not trying to manipulate her). I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

IMHO: It sounds from the way you described it that the PhD program is the way to go. Some people get sucked into feeling they need to complete higher education without a clear direction. You, on the other hand, sound like you know the direction you want to go and the degree is required for teaching at the level you would like to teach.<p>I wish I had the same luck you do with sex. For my WW, SF is probably number 5 or 6. The way she describes it, although she can not come up with a definite number, she had successful sex around 6 times with the OM. Successful meaning that because of the erectile disfunction, he was only able to perform around 6 times while there PA was going on in a 8 month time frame. Because of the OM's problem, the OM is very very good at touching and cunnilingus. I think the newness of this changed the way she likes sex. Intercourse was the only successful way my WW could climax with me. I never was successful at the other stuff, and was not too good at it, so we never really tried. My WW did not even know enough about her own body to tell me how she like it. We were both very shy about discussing and talking about sex, me more than her because I was a virgin before we married. I even thought for a while that there was something wrong with her for not liking other things, and the entire time she did not like it because I was doing it wrong. I am very edgy about the whole thing now because of all the insensitve treatment my wife gave me when we tried sex a few times since D-day. She told me that it had nothing to do with practice. You are either good at it or not. Needless to say, I do not even care to have sex with her when I think about all this mess. Some crap I have made for myself here.

Dreamland - <p>Sorry about the way sex is going for you. I can truely say it is possible to do things better with trying, observing what is working, and getting your wife to tell you what works. My problem was that I was very inhibited about sex (it was a way of not feeling good about myself). This is something I have discussed with my IC and now that I feel good about myself (not my situation) I have been better sexually for myself and my wife. I would have to say that my wife prefers other stimulation over intercourse but she can climax both ways (just better for her, and that is important, when I do other things). I have no idea what the OM and she do, unless it is realy wierd I am confident that I could do it better. This is just the way I feel about myself and it helps. The key for me is not to focus on performance or what might go wrong and just enjoy it. <p>My problem is not knowing if it is helping or hurting my situation.<p>FYI..at some point I am going to pose a question on the EN forum about good books for sexual techniques or what works to make things better for other people. I don't think I need this right now, but hopefully someday it will be good information to know.