OK...So most of this is just venting/journaling...It's a free world, isn't it

Marriage Builders

Hi everyone. Today was a bad day and maybee a good day. I need some advice on where to go from here.

My main thread and story are on "just found out" at this link.

my story and main venting thread

So here goes the current state of things. After several days of no calls and just seeing the OM at work, WW started calling him again yesterday. Today, she left for work wearing a dress and no hose and came home the same way. When I went to her (used to be our room) with her clothers onn the bed were stockings and matching underwear (nothing she even wears for me). She had left early for work and got home late.

I didn't want to LB, but given the bad day I was having I couldn't resist a small comment. So I said "I guess the hose must have been uncomfortable, you were not wearing them when you got home". I left it at that but she was obviously not happy.

later this evening, she confronted me and wanted to know if I was checking up on her. I said no I just noticed and it is up to you decide if an explanation is needed. I told her I was done checking up on her, she knows how I feel and she can make her own decisions. She dropped the subject, but said she felt I was checking up on her and she did not like it. (I know serious fog..when you are hiding something).

We then actually talked quite a bit. She stated that the OM was not the source of our problems and that it was irrelevant. I acknowledged that my withdrawal from her in the past was a large part of the problem and she was correct that our problems preceded the OM.

But I did tell her that I had two issues with the OM. First I told her that it was causing me pain, and moving us further apart. Second, I did not know how we could work on the real problems when three people were involved. I also reminded her that the marriage counsleor said she had to make a choice. She stated that she did not like the counselor and that is why she doesn't want to back (translated...I did not like what he had to say about the EA/PA)

I then asked her what she was going to do. Her response was that she was not going to committ to giving him up or continuing to see him. She then stated that she wanted to still be freinds with him. I told her that if we ever head down the path of reconciliation, i would expect her to leave her job. She complained that I was asking her to ruin her career (more fog, just in January she was looking for another job and her career is so mobile she could get anotehr job in a matter of days).

Needless to say she stated that her biggest problem lies in the bitterness she feels toward me. In essence she states that she was and still is devasted by the lack of attention and support that I gave her in the past. I freely admit I was not the best husband (no abuse), but I was only meeting one or two of her ENs and they were not the most important ones.

I do feel good that we talked some, this is the first time she has initiated any conversation at all. I did a good job not asking any questions (she always refuses to answer and gets mad). She did a lot of crying while we talked and other than telling her she eventually would have to leave her job there were no LBs.

My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish. She is going out of town for the next five days to see her family (I hope the time away is good for clearing her mind). I have acknowledged her pain and my failure to meet her ENs and am working on myslef.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[ July 01, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: onwardandup ]

By the way...I'm exhausted and going to bed, but I will respond at length (what else to do when WW and daughter are gone for several days [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img][ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: onwardandup ]

OnwardandupI am pasting Still Seeking's excellent post from your other thread because I beleive that it contains so many good, practical tips that can help you in carrying out a near perfect plan A that it deserves re reading.Joe <blockquote>quote:<hr>Still Seeking:
"Remember that plan A does not bring them back, it makes it possible for them to want to be with you when the Affair falls apart ( 90 something percent of them end within 18 months, I can't find the actual number ) The WS finally realizes that in "real life" the OP is worse than the spouse is - because you have been using plan A and they realize you are the one they want to live with. But it often takes a lot of time. Try what I have been doing, each week think of something that you are going to do for her to fill her needs that you don't normally do. This last week I cleaned the bathroom in our bedroom. She went on and on about how I didn't need to do it and that she was about to do it anyway. I just told her that I did it because I loved her, no strings attached. Finally she shut up about it. Yesterday she invited me to the bedroom (during her monthly cycle - its been years ! ) I asked her where that came from - she said " I just wanted to show you I love you." So plan A is starting to show dividends for me - after 3 months ( or 3 1/2 ? actually, its close to 4 if I stop and figure. But like I said in an earlier post, every day is not like that. I recommend a long term written plan. If she will tell you her needs, that's better, but if not, figure them out by how she reacts to what you do. Keep notes, you will forget. It's tough with all you are doing, but you need to do it. Write down what you plan to do, what you actually do, how she reacts. Review it weekly, keep a journal so to speak. Record your feelings, many use this forum to do it in a loose manner but I recommend you be more specific in private. Why do this? It helps smooth out the downs, helps you see that there are good times, over time, you can see progress - more ups than downs and the ups last longer and are better than the downs. Like a jagged graph going gently up. It helps you stay on plan."
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At least I just need to plan A hard for the next two days and then I get a break to recharge my batteries.
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"I have explained to my wife that I am trying to change my habits ( plan A and no LB's ) but that I am not perfect yet and that when I give a lot and get little It makes it hard on me. Since I have made a commitment to change, and not be demanding or angry so I just detach for a day or two. She asks me what is wrong and I just say " I am having a hard time, just leave me alone for a day or so." Since I have explained it to her, she knows what is going on and lets me recharge. Note that it is easier now, she has started to respond."
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One interesting thing she said tonight was that she felt I still had anxiety problems about her being uncertain as to what her decision would be. DUH...I must have married a rocket scientist.
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"You need to be honest about your feelings. Not not in a demanding or angry way. But when she makes comments like this, you need to tell her how you feel. " Yes, I am hurting, I know you have feelings for OM, I know you call him. It hurts me because I love you and want to stay married you." Then re-assure her that you will cope and be OK in the end no matter what - but that you hope that things work out."
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I want to get on with my life with her or without her, and she seems happy to keep things the way they are. I am beginning to dread her being away for five days esp. with my daughter. I still want her in my life, but the tank is always getting lower on fuel.
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"From what you describe, she has already chosen you. She is including you in her plans, she asks you for input. This does not look like the ones that leave and never come back. I think she has chosen you but is waiting to see if she has made the right choice. She will have withdrawal pains, she has invested some of her heart in the OP. Help her just like if she was getting off alcohol or drugs. She needs the same help and support - and love. You can do this, You can. ( prayer is the best help for me, since I found there was someone on the other end)One good thing about her being gone - she may find she is really glad to see you when she comes back. I agree about giving a good plan A for 2 days. Don't ask her not to call / contact him while she is gone, don't even bring it up. Just love her. I have found that many small things in plan A do more than a few big ones. ( but I do big ones sometimes too.) Good Luck,
SS" <hr></blockquote>

Up...for more thoughts on where she is and and what if anything to do.

Sorry that you had a bad/good day. It is amazing how many ups and downs one day can bring. I am very depressed this morning myself. I am surprised I got to work without crashing my car into a brick wall. My lows just keep getting lower it seems, and I am still unable to put even a halfway productive day in at work.To answer the following big question first:
"My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish."
IMHO and at the risk of being harsh, security (financial support) is typically high up on a womens EN list. Where is this on your wife's EN list? Remeber though that your wife filled this EN list out when she was in a fog. I am not sure how accurate the EN list is. Additionally, she may regret you for not provideing her with the oportunity to be a stay at home mom and to spend time with her daughter. You probably will want to probe this with her. Be understanding though and be prepared for her to say that she regrets you for this, just in case. You will probably need to work this information out of her because she may be scared that she will hurt your feelings. How much school do you have left? How long have you been married? How much of that time have you been in school? What were the circumstances with you going back to school? I could be off base here, but sometimes the most obvious thing is often the real culprit.My wife will not give up the OM either. You need to try to understand and come to grip with the fact that she is going to see him and continue her relationship with him until the A dies a natural death.You may think that you did not LB very much by bringing up the hose issue, but you did. You need to get to the point were you can accept what she is doing to you and forgive her for what she is going to do and has done and truly love her unconditionally. This will help you not to LB. However, this is very difficult to do. I have to address this daily for myself to keep going.It sounds like your Plan A is having an effect. Are you two not in the same bedroom now? Anyway, try not to take her EN questionare too literally. She is in a fog and may not be able to answer this. I filled this thing out several times, and depending how I feel on a given day, I get different answers. Experiment filling different EN's and do those that have the most effect. Do you take care of most everything around the house since you are home more. If you
do then doing extra around the house may not have an impact. I do alot around the house too, vacume, dishes, pick up the house, etc. I have noticed that if I do more of this, it does not make any difference. I have also noticed planning nights out with my WW makes a huge difference. Get a baby sitter and take your WW out to dinner. I am taking my wife to a concert this weekend. Major brownie points!! Experiment to see what you do has the greatest impact and do more of that to fill that EN.Talking intimate with your wife like you have been is extremely important. You need intimate conversation for you to turn things around. Right now the OM is a major part of your WW and she needs someone to talk about all that she is going through. Try to encourage her to talk about the OM and show appreciation when she does and understanding. She will open if you make her feel comfortable when she shares these things with you. I was able to get my wife to tell me who had bigger genitals (found out his was slightly bigger, but he has erectile disfunction. YES!!!! She said even a few times he could not even do it.) She shared these things with me because I encourage her and show interest and put my poker face on if it embarasess me. She is sharing everything with me know and it is drawing her closer to me. However, I think it is doing a number on me.Concentrate on filling the EN's that make the biggest difference and try to get her to talk openly with you. I think that this will make the biggest difference in helping replace the bad memories with good ones. Start planning special events with her. It makes her feel great!!Good luck and keep posting.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> She dropped the subject, but said she felt I was checking up on her and she did not like it. (I know serious fog..when you are hiding something). <hr></blockquote>It is usually this way long past the end of the A. It is a habit, and right now, it is one she doesn't even know she has, let alone want to work on it. Its just what they all do. My wife told me this morning that " you are meeting all of my needs but I can't change my feelings overnight." Last night I expressed my feelings of love for her and she could tell I wanted attention and affection and she said, " Am I safe with you or not." In other words, LEAVE ME ALONE. So we both woke up early and she was in the mood to talk and I got the above as the reason why - I can't change her feelings overnight. YOU can't change HER feelings overnight either. In fact, we are not supposed to try to do that. We are supposed to be in this for the long haul. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I then asked her what she was going to do. Her response was that she was not going to commit to giving him up or continuing to see him. She then stated that she wanted to still be friends with him. I told her that if we ever head down the path of reconciliation, i would expect her to leave her job. <hr></blockquote>1. She can't tell you what she is going to do, in her conscience mind, she doesn't know. Some of us reading your story feel from the signs you are giving that she will come back to you. But you can't ask her that. Repeat after me " I CAN'T ASK HER WHAT SHE IS GOING TO DO." 2. What you want most of all, is for her to give up OM. Almost all your thoughts (some days, most nights ) are about this. It's normal (OK, its abnormal as can be, but its what happens in this situation) , it drives you crazy, it prevents you from thinking straight. It's only right and proper for her to give him up, but SHE IS NOT THINKING RIGHT AND PROPER, SO DON'T GO THERE. 3. When she comes to you and says" OK, I have been messed up, I don't know what I was thinking, how can we put this marriage back together. " Or, if you go to a plan B and give her a plan B letter then you can bring up her having no contact. But, otherwise, you should just plan A and wait. I KNOW IT'S HARD, YOU JUST HAVE TO DO IT. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Needless to say she stated that her biggest problem lies in the bitterness she feels toward me. In essence she states that she was and still is devastated by the lack of attention and support that I gave her in the past. I freely admit I was not the best husband (no abuse), but I was only meeting one or two of her ENs and they were not the most important ones. <hr></blockquote>What a gift she gave you when she told you that ! ! Most BS's would be so glad to have reasons for what was going on. So give her the attention and support, you'll get her back. ( can you stand to wait 6 months or a year , can you take the strain? ) If you take it, I believe you will get her back. <blockquote>quote:<hr> My question is this. Given she doesn't want to end the EA/PA, and expresses such bitterness toward me, is there any way or thing I can do to help her anger diminish. <hr></blockquote>Look, this is basic MB stuff. I, ( we) all have these feelings. I'm going to repeat myself some, but here goes: 1. It takes time for the A to end, and doesn't always go how we want. 2. It takes time for the bitterness to go away. It came slowly, over time, it will leave the same way. 3. Just because the first two are fact, doesn't mean nothing positive is happening. 4. Just because the first two are fact, doesn't mean she doesn't love YOU. All the signs are that she does. 5. She does want to end the A. That crying she did during your talk should mean something to you. BUT, she has an addiction, all the logic in the world ( what you try and use to bring her back) won't work. Logic and discussions don't cure additions, people that have them know they need to quit. They just can't do it sometimes. (read SAA) 6. What will work, is love, patience, forgiveness, lack of anger and more love. 7. Read SAA again, then at least a chapter weekly. 8. Read HNHN and LB's again, then review weekly. 9. It will get to you, you would not be a normal person if it did not. When it does and you have a bad day tell yourself ( like I do) " I can get through today, tomorrow will be better." Say that over and over till tomorrow. Tomorrow has always been better. Always. These negative feelings are going to come to you over and over and over. Come back and we'll tell you the same things again. We all need to hear it. It is sooooo hard. It really is. But you can do it ! You can!
Say, did you ever hear the story of the little engine that could ????

BTW, I second what dreamland said. In fact, I kind of said some of it over.(sorry dreamland) But we all need to hear it over and over.

Thanks for the support. I have to mow the lawn now, it isn't raining and the exercise will do me well. I have a lot of thoughts about what has been said and I'll reply shortly.

Check out the divorce busting website and read up on the walk-away wife syndrome. It sounds to me like your wife is expressing some of those symptoms -- long seeded resentment, and an unwillingness to let down her walls.I felt the same way.

Well here I am again (way too much lawn to mow) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] This morning I was as nice to her as could be. I tried to snuggle in the bed (she wasn't very interested). I made blueberry pancakes for her (she loves these), helped her get stuff together and packed the car. I gave her a hug and told her to have a good time and that I love her (no response).My SIL called in response to the letter I sent her and we talked for two hours. I am not sure how much of the story she knows and told her she could stop me if she wanted. I related everything that is going on and how I feel. I let her know that I still love WW and wanted to work things out. I told her that I have taken responsibility for my actions that led to where we are today. I didn't ask her to talk to WW for me, I just wanted to let her know how I felt. I also let her know that although WW is bitter towards me, the current situation is taking a toll on me. I told her I was prepared to wait things out, but not forever. In all I think it was a good call and was not damaging or a LB.WW has called twice from the road, once to let me know about traffic and a second time to get directions. When she called the second time, I told her that I talked to her sister. She was mad because I relayed a story about thier father and his continuing contact with ex-wife #2 (the one who broke-up him with thier mom) and his giving her money. She stated that she had not told her sister because she knew she would not take it well. I appologized for sharing the story, I thought she had told her sister. She said that she realized I did not do it on purpose. I told her I mainly talked to her sister about my issues and that I am comfortable talking about me.I will reply to the messages in another post.

DreamlandSorry about the ups and downs (amazing that we can all be going through some of the same feelings). As for the financial security, you are right on target. She has stated that she is very angry with me for going to school and was much happier when I made a lot of money. The big problem is that we talked about this decison and I told her I would not go if she did not approve. She approved and here we are, but she now says she never approved and has been angry ever since.We have been married just over seven years and I have just completed (almost - one class incomplete) my first year of Ph.D. In all reality I have at least two more years and probably three to go. I do not pay tuition (full scholarship) and recieve a small paycheck (around 20K/yr)and excellent health insurance for the whole family. I had been working for myslef and that was not rewarding financially or personnally for a few years - so back to school was a change for the better. When we were engaged and just married I was in school getting a MBA. After that I had a very good job (80K+) and we used the money for WW to get an advanced degree also. I have told her I am willing to work some while in school to help out and this is something I am checking into.As for the same bedroom, I have been exiled for a month I quess. Some mornings I come in and we snuggle (yes and we have been intimate a few times). A couple of times we have slept together, but in the morning she seems to regret this (in some ways she wants to keep her walls up).As for ENs it is difficult to know what is most important. I think affection, financial support, converstion are up there but hard to tell. I think I'll just have to try and see what works. I want to have conversations, but most of the time she just clams-up. I guess I just need to wait for her to want to talk.One last thing...I'm having difficulty with the unconditional love concept. I realize LBing is not unconditional love and I do feel I have unconditional love for her otherwise I would not be here. But how does unconditional love relate to the love bank. It seems that even with unconditional love we could all reach a breaking point and go to plan B or get a divorce. If you could help me with this, I would appreciate it.

Lexxxy - I think there is some parrallels with her behavior and the walk-away wife syndrone. I will go back to the DB site and look some more. I got one of the books but haven't have the chance to read it yet. At least she hasn't completely gone yet, and I have the chance to work my plan A.Still Seeking - I realy appreciate the comments you have given me. They always resonate and help me get my focus back. I especialy appreciate the fact that you see encouraging signs in things (I usually don't so this helps).As you can see in my other posts and response to Dreamland, there are many issues and although I haven't discovered all of them I do have some hints where to work. The financial support is a big one and hopefully I can help with that this summer (I just don't want to bite off too much since my I don't have it all togther and I know there will be bad days).I general it is hard not to get down on yourself and loose you focus on the big picture and the fact that you are tying to save your marriage. The suggestions you have make sense, I am keeping a personal journal of what works and what doesn't, and I will go back to re-read the books. Thank you, it is nice to know people care, especially with all the crap each of us is enduring oursleves.

About unconditional love, I posted below a few days ago. Not much of a response. I do not think anyone wants to here this kind of stuff. Let me know what you think:I have been trying to deal with all of this and have found another way to gain strength for Plan A and to feel happier. It all comes down to the question "What does true love have to do with all of this?" Well I have summarized my opinion about LOVE and I would like some comments or criticisms. Please have at it and do not hold anything back. Give me your opinion. Below is mine and I may be way off base here:Everyone seems to be throwing the word "love" around using it generically for all types of love. Unfortunately the English language has only one word, which means four different types of love. We seem to confusing "feelings of love" with real love. The love that is keeping my WW and I together has nothing to do with the feelings that we talk about when we mention Love Bank. The love that is true is unconditional. All too often we all want to "feel good" about our spouse and we feel neglected when the spouse does not make us feel good. Well life is not all a bunch of good smelling flowers (obviously). When we said till death do us part, for richer or poorer, in sickness etc. where we really serious here or just mouthing the words. Of course we were serious, otherwise none of us would be at this website trying to make things work, and if you are here just for the children, then you are here for the wrong reasons. If the Love Bank was all that love is about, there would be no need for this forum. None of us would be with our spouses right now. Does this mean we should put up with all the crap our WS's give us. Of course not. We do what Dr. Harley says, Plan A, Plan B etc., and if none of this will work to fix our marriages we consider cutting our losses. We are not expected to be emotionally abused throughout our entire life’s. Just remember, if none of the Plan A is coming from the heart, it will be very difficult to work. Plan A to be effective and to prevent LB's needs to be an outward expression of the heart. I have learned that if I can't come to a point where I can love my wife unconditionally, then whenever I find out she is seeing OM or calling OM I do some major LB'ing. I have to work to get to this kind of love because this kind of love is a heart felt decision.Here is a distinction between the different types of love and how important true love is in all of this not just romantic love. Romantic types of love (the Love Bank) are fleeting and conditional and must be reinforced by true love for marriage to work. It is not enough to have romantic love in a marriage. Remember that the WS has romantic love for the OP. When the light shines on the romantic love, the romantic love dissolves and since there is no real love, the relationship dies, or so we hope.If anyone researches the bible, you will know that the Greeks had four words to describe our one word love:Eros: Sexual passionate love
Storge: Natural bonding love with children, etc.
Phileo: Love of affection.
Agape: Unconditional Love. Love that God has for us.Agape love is the love that will keep a relationship together forever. I think this is the love we need to revive for our WS in order to get the EROS and PHILEO working properly. The first day after D-day I had to determine if I still had Agape love for my WW. I saw that it was there and I have been working on keeping this alive in me ever since.Well love is so complicated, I am sure there is much more to it then this.Since this post, I have decided that Agape love increases when we decide to work through trials and troubles together in life and decide that the WW is worth trying for. That is why I think that I feel more love for my wife now then before D-day.

Dreamland,Harley, doesn't believe in Unconditional love. That is why it is necessary to met your spouses needs. If you don't the love dies and they move on. It is also why it is possible to rebuild a marriage. Love is conditional. It is conditional on the other person meeting needs and being the sort of person someone wants to be around.Plan A is NOT about unconditional needs because if you do it long enough, you will find your love bank going empty and there will be no love left. That is why there is a plan B. Plan B slows the drainage of love from you. You see if your W's A ends and she wants to try again, it probably won't be out of love, but rather guilt.If you have fallen out of love with her by that time, you won't want to rebuild either. More precisely you won't be able to either. Marriage is for sure over.You will always have feelings for your W no matter what happens, but love. No it will die. What is supposed to be forever, is commitment to the wedding vows. Why do you think people make "vows" before God, family, and friends. It is because marriage is not easy, love does come and go, but the institution encourages you to hang in there because YOU made a vow.So, no I don't agree with you that love is unconditional. It is very conditional and that is why you are in the place you are. That is why there is hope for your marriage and rebuilding it.Hang in there, this will take awhile, but it can work.God Bless,JL

Quick update, WW called agian last evening when I was out. We talked for a while about nothing of any significance. I had called her back several hours after she called and said I was out. Her immediate response was to ask where were you. I told her I was at my nephew's soccer match. It is kind of interesting that she was so interested in where I was and what I was doing, while she is offended when I ask where she is. It was a perfect opportunity to make a comment or pick a fight, but I didn't and just let it go. Sometimes it is so hard to understand what she is thinking. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] As for unconditional love. Like you Dreamland I have found that my love for WW is stronger through all of these troubles. If love was nothing but a love bank and her meeting my needs was necessary to maintain my love then I would be gone. But I am not, so there is something beyond the love bank. But I also think unconditional love is a decision. It is a decision to choose to love someone despite the circumstances and thier withdrawls from our love bank. The key thing is to remember that it is a decision. In my case I will be willing to attempt a reconciliation up untill the day divorce papers are finalized. I don't think the sacrifice of pain and hurt that is endured by a BS can be justified by a reamining ballance in the love bank. If I am trying to meet someones needs who is abusing my needs it is because I have made that decsion. Part of this unconditional love for me is a realiztion that I can love with nothing in return. This love and sacrifice makes me feel good about myself, so that is why I can sustain it.With this having been said, at some point my love bank (the emotional/conditional love) will need some satisfaction. Absent this I do have the choice to no longer offer unconditional love. I also have the ability to state my own feelings and not be a doormat while offering this unconditional love.The Harleys may not believe in unconditional love, but it seems to me that to truely perform a good plan A it has to come from the heart and be your true intention. If it is only a plan to try and get your needs eventually filled, I think there is still some element of the taker (just a sneaky one). Yes, I do want my needs met, but knowing that there is a chance they may never be met in this relationship lets me push the taker aside. I have made my choice to try and work things out, I think this is closer to unconditional love than residual conditional/emotional/love bank love. This is just my opinion and how I feel about what I am doing. We could argue whether unconditional love is commitment, but I don't see the point. I don't need to have a perfect definition for what I am doing and feeling. I just need to know it comes from my heart and I have to feel good about myself and what I am doing.

Just Learning,This very second, I have no feelings of love for my WW. By your definition of love, it is time to move on. That is why our divorce rate is so high. Society has nurtured the believe that we have the right to be happy all the time. If my WW were to get deathly ill, and was unable to fill my emotional needs does this mean I should move. My marriage vows did not say, "only when we are feeling good about each other we will stay together." My marriage vows said "till death do us part." This was a concious heart felt decision to stay with my wife forever regardless. This concious heart felt decision is true love.At the end of your post you said "God bless". Well, God commands H's to (Agape) Love their W's as he (Agape) loves the church. This love is an unconditional love. It does not depend upon whether or not our spouse happens to make us feel good. There will be many many times in a marriage where we will not feel good about our spouses. This will not be the only time.Harley has simplified love and defined it as a "Love Bank" so that we can easily grasp an understanding of such a complicated thing so that we can understand the techniques required on how to love. Plan A is how to love, Plan A is NOT love. Authors have written many books, poems, etc. to describe what love is and still have problems truly describing this. Do you really believe that love is this mechanical and simple? The love bank is a great way to describe why marriages break up and how to make marriages stay together. Do you really believe that this is all there is to the mechanics of marriage and relationships?"That is why it is necessary to met your spouses needs."
If you truly (Agape) love your spouse, will you not want to meet your spouses needs. What Plan A gives us is the map on how to love. Some of this actually needs to be taught. If a child grew up with parents that slapped him around all the time, he would have a jaded view on how to love. If that same child, conversly, grew up in a loving nurturing home, he would show his love similiar to the way his parents showed love to him. Plan A teaches us how to love at a time where we do not want to love. Plan A we are to work on ourselves so that we can love like this without LB'ing. Working on yourself to me means learning how to love, and getting back to loving uncoditionally. My love for my wife now does not come from how she is making me feel right now. My love for my wife comes from inside. I will love my wife regardless of what she does.The "vows" that we speak before man and god is not intended to put preasure on a couple to stay together. The vows are a demonstration of an inner love and comitment for your spouse. It is not the words you utter that keep the marriage together! When I unconditionally love my wife, that will mean that no matter what she does to me, I will love her. So if she has another EA and PA, I will still love her. If she stabs me in the chest, and I slowly bleed to death. On my death bed, I will still love her. That does not mean, like God, that we allow our spouse to walk all over us and do mean terrible things to us. We set our boundaries to protect our feelings. We tell our spouses what hurts our feelings. If they continue to hurt our feelings and we are constantly feeling misrable, we have the option by the law of men to get a divorce. Does this mean I would no longer love my wife? No, I will still love my wife. I am just getting out of a situation that continues to hurt my feelings.Well I appreciate the critism of my understanding of Love. It helps me work out in my head what exactly marriage and love is about. I do know that God's description of how I am required to love my wife is the way I will try to go, and in my opinion, this fits in with the Dr. Harley concept. If I (agape) love my wife, I will want and try to meet her EN's given the road map of Plan A, and if Plan A does not work, I will try Plan B.We all have to ask ourselfs this question: "Am I manipulating or loving." If we are just doing Plan A without this (Agape) Love, then we could using instruments to sway people to do what we want them to do, and that is manipulation.

onwardandup,I just read your post right after I posted. WELL SAID!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I was beginning to think I was the only one out there who thought this way.About your earlier post which answered some of my questions about your post-graduate studies, how important to your career path is your post-graduate study. What is your career path? (Well I am going to catch HE** for this question from some on this forum). Would you be willing to give up your studies to fill your wife's EN's? It may be necessary to save your marriage. I do not think it is necessary for the A to end. That will probably die regardless of the Plan Aing you are doing. Remember that even after the A ends, you have got a long journey for her to start feeling love for you again. It may be that filling all her other needs will not be enough. Her main emotional need may be financial support.About your wife aproving of you going back to school, in a perfect world I agree that if she aproves she should stand by her approval. Unfortunately, women are not that honest with their feelings and fail to look foward in the future to see how this will affect them. I do not think you should blame your wife for aproving and now being mad about it. About the sex, I have learned that if my wife is not emotionally attached to me, she will regret me for the sex. Let her come to you for sex. She will let you know when she is ready, and make sure that she is emotionally attached to you before sex. The sex (even though we need it for our EN's) will be a major LB if she is not attached and she may regret you for it. In my situation, the sex is awfull uncomfortable for us when she is not emotionally involved with me, so I decided not to go there until I know she is being very very responsive. However, some women can have sex for sex, but by the sound of it, your wife is not in that category.

As for my career path, what the plan was is for me to be a college professor. This is something that I want to do and in the long run it will certainly meet many of her emotional needs. I will have a lucrative salary, there will opportunity for travel, and my schedule will be extermely flexible (lots of free time and the ability to work at home during the academic year).I have not considered giving this up since she has not asked for this and honestly speaking she has expressed that the outcome will be very good for her and me. As she has seen me having trouble coping with the state of our marriage, she has continued to be concerned about the progress in my schoolwork. I also do not have any idea what I would do otherwise that would be fulfilling. The big problem seems to be her need for immediate fulfillment so I know if I continue on with my studies there will be a problem for the next few years.I'm not mad at her for how she feels about my studies right now (I understand), I guess the problem lies in the fact that we didn't communicate well in the first place. If we can't communicate and reach a mutual agreement then the same problems will surface again in the future. In some respects I am guilty of the same thing when I withdrew and did not meet her needs.As for the sex, it is just a big question mark for me. When we are close, I am certainly in the mood and on occasion she is in the mood too. I know that SF is one of her big needs also and it was lacking in the past. Certianly if she is emotionally attached it will be good for both of us. The problem is knowing if she is attached and also that even if she feels good about it at the time, her emotional attachment is fleeting. I know my wife has a high sex drive. One of the things she says is that having sex with me makes her feel like she is getting sucked back in (she is letting some of walls down). In essence afterwards she is sometimes mad because she is not ready to recommitt. I will have to say that some of the sex we have had since all hell broke loose has been the best ever for both of us. It is just a big question since she feels that I did not want to have sex with her in the past. I feel like I at least need to express the fact that I enjoy being with her sexually and want to meet her needs (This is how I feel and I am not trying to manipulate her). I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

IMHO: It sounds from the way you described it that the PhD program is the way to go. Some people get sucked into feeling they need to complete higher education without a clear direction. You, on the other hand, sound like you know the direction you want to go and the degree is required for teaching at the level you would like to teach.I wish I had the same luck you do with sex. For my WW, SF is probably number 5 or 6. The way she describes it, although she can not come up with a definite number, she had successful sex around 6 times with the OM. Successful meaning that because of the erectile disfunction, he was only able to perform around 6 times while there PA was going on in a 8 month time frame. Because of the OM's problem, the OM is very very good at touching and cunnilingus. I think the newness of this changed the way she likes sex. Intercourse was the only successful way my WW could climax with me. I never was successful at the other stuff, and was not too good at it, so we never really tried. My WW did not even know enough about her own body to tell me how she like it. We were both very shy about discussing and talking about sex, me more than her because I was a virgin before we married. I even thought for a while that there was something wrong with her for not liking other things, and the entire time she did not like it because I was doing it wrong. I am very edgy about the whole thing now because of all the insensitve treatment my wife gave me when we tried sex a few times since D-day. She told me that it had nothing to do with practice. You are either good at it or not. Needless to say, I do not even care to have sex with her when I think about all this mess. Some crap I have made for myself here.

Dreamland - Sorry about the way sex is going for you. I can truely say it is possible to do things better with trying, observing what is working, and getting your wife to tell you what works. My problem was that I was very inhibited about sex (it was a way of not feeling good about myself). This is something I have discussed with my IC and now that I feel good about myself (not my situation) I have been better sexually for myself and my wife. I would have to say that my wife prefers other stimulation over intercourse but she can climax both ways (just better for her, and that is important, when I do other things). I have no idea what the OM and she do, unless it is realy wierd I am confident that I could do it better. This is just the way I feel about myself and it helps. The key for me is not to focus on performance or what might go wrong and just enjoy it. My problem is not knowing if it is helping or hurting my situation.FYI..at some point I am going to pose a question on the EN forum about good books for sexual techniques or what works to make things better for other people. I don't think I need this right now, but hopefully someday it will be good information to know.

It think that as long as she does not feel bad about having sex the next day, it is a big help for you especially if SF is high on her EN list. IMHO: Since, however, women typically require emotional bond for SF, save the SF for a good day you have with your WW.

I guess the biggest fear I have is that my WW will seek SF elsewhere (which I believe she has) instead of at home. I know this is another case of not being able to impact what she is doing but I think about it none the less. Knowing that for her it increases attachnment, I don't want her relationship with the OM to get stronger. Also since she is not allowing me to provide communication and that is a one of her top needs, and since I have an issue with school and financial support I just feel like there isn't a whole lot left to meet. I can certainly work on the other needs, but I believe you should try hardest on the important ones. I know at the end of the day it is her decision about what she wants to do and who she will allow to meet her needs. I just wonder that if I don't get the chance to meet important ones that my chances are diminished. I have read about others who can do a good plan A even when seperated so I guess there is hope. Just sometimes it is hard to convince yourself of this. I think the unconditional love is the best way to keep going. At least from that perspective you don't get hung up on the impact you are having, instead you are focused on giving your love in any way it will be taken (if at all).

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Also since she is not allowing me to provide communication and that is a one of her top needs, and since I have an issue with school and financial support I just feel like there isn't a whole lot left to meet. I can certainly work on the other needs, but I believe you should try hardest on the important ones. <hr></blockquote>You can still meet needs that they tell you they don't want met. ( Well, SF would be hard, but conversation would still work.) Do you still date? If so what do you talk about ? One of my W's favorite things when we were newly married (read "poor)" was window shopping. We used to hold hands and walk down the mall. Are there any of those things you could still do? Many BS's have reported that they can bring up stories about things when times were good. Go to a spot that has good memories and play the remember game. "Remember when we . . . . .and you did this . . . . . . .and I said that . . . . . ."Instead of thinking " I can't meet this one, and she won't let me meet that one," figure out what you CAN do and spend time thinking about that. Use your energy for positive thought. " I can do this, and I could try that." All of them won't work, and she may say no to some. When that happens, just try something else. Think about it for a while, things will come to you. About school and F support -
at one time you mentioned getting a part time job. Did you discuss it with her? What did she say? Are you still thinking about it? There is good and bad with that. F support is better but time to spend with her is less. And right now, you need as much time with her as she will let you spend. Plan A
Remember, plan A won't stop the A.
What does it do? Well, when she talks to OM, (early in the A ) he is always happy, he is positive, he doesn't LB, he makes her happy, smiles at her makes her feel good about herself. Plan A does this for (if you do it right ) you. It makes you into a happier, more positive, caring, and safe person. Someone that is always happy to see her, one that smiles at her, one she feels good being around. Then when the A gets old, and OM starts to LB she says " I would rather have H, he is a better person than OM, he makes me feel good. What was I thinking? "So your homework for while she is gone is to figure out what will do this for her and then start doing it. Practice before she comes home. Give yourself acting lessons. It will be more natural after a while. You can come here to unload your real feelings when you need to. When she comes home you need to be there to say " I missed you, feels good to have you home." or your version of that. You need to smile, be positive, tell her you hope she had a great time, that she deserved it. No matter what you feel, or think, or suspect, you need to do that. You need to out OM the OM. Start thinking of positive things you can try, and write them down in your journal. Things will come to you from what you hear on the radio, what you see on TV, others on this forum. Make notes.
WORK THAT PLAN A.
GO MAN GO. (you should be smiling by now.) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
You and Dreamland have a good thing going, kind of like Spacecase and 2long. Keep it up. Look at the thousands of people that made it work, remember that you can too. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I like still seeking's ideas. Take her out on a date, that will force her to talk to you. Will she let you do that. You could even try movies at first and then go to the long dinners with apetizers and do not skip dessert.Think of what you guys did when you where dating and do these things. I think most of the marriages suffer because we stop dating. I can remember the best times my WW and I had after D-day is when I took her out at least once a week and got a baby sitter.

Nothing realy new. WW called twice yesterday to talk (although she actually didn't talk much). The one thing she is most interested in is what am I doing, where have I been, and with who. She called again this morning, so I guess these are all positive signs.Thanks again for all the good advice and support. This few days are truely helping to recharge my batteries, along with the things that everyone has suggested. I have a friend coming into town today for the weekend so I should be able to have some fun. Interestingly, he has been separated for 11 mo. and is the WS. I wonder what great insights he has into all this crap we are all going through.

I am glad you are feeling better. I think I am beginning to feel good myself. I went to see Star Wars Episode II last night with family and a couple of kids in the neighborhood. Kids are too young to sit through the whole thing (2 hours and 20 minutes), but it was fun anyway. My WW actually watched the 2 yr old while I watched the movie with the sleeping baby. This was very nice of her.I am beginning to put hours to how long I feel good on a given day. Yesterday about 5 to 8 hours. Today hopefully more. This whole unconditional love thing has helped me tremendously. It takes a load off my mind and heart. It makes me feel better about love and romance.About your wife being inquisitive about your what you are doing. Mine is too. I think because she had an affair she thinks that I will too. She is very jeleous of a girl at work. I really do not like her, but it is fun to watch her squirm a little about it. It makes me feel good to know she really does care. If I am not around the phone to answer her call she wants to know where I was. I like any attention I can get.I am very interested in your friends perspective on all of this. There are not many WS's which respond here. I do not blame then either because when they do, they get hammered by all of the BS's. So please post what you find out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Nothing really new. WW called twice yesterday to talk (although she actually didn't talk much). The one thing she is most interested in is what am I doing, where have I been, and with who. She called again this morning, so I guess these are all positive signs. <hr></blockquote>THIS IS REALLY BIG. She is reaching out to you - to fill her need for conversation. She wants you to talk to her. It looks like she is calling you instead of OM. However, this could be a red flag.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> (although she actually didn't talk much). <hr></blockquote>Many men (read "you and I" ) use conversation differently than women do.
My wife goes walking every morning with a girlfriend. I often ask her what she talks about. They care about things that we don't care about. They talk about things we don't "normally" talk about. So how could this have been a red flag? Well, when she asked what you had done, who you had been with, did you dive in with enthusiasm, or did you say, "not much, nobody really." ?I think you can see where I am going with this. Talk, Talk, Talk. Make her feel your smile, your love over the phone. Partly with what you say, but ..... well..... how to explain this?OK, our company uses the phone a lot. I have been to training seminars about it, they teach that how you look, and act, can be felt on the other end of the conversation. If you feel positive, smile, and ACT like you have enthusiasm while on the phone, it carries through somehow to the person on the other end, even though they cannot see you. Make sense? I think you ought to call her this evening. Ask her the same kinds of things, she has been asking you. Tell her you miss her and are looking foreward to seeing her. But not in a sad way. Not with a frown, like you're falling apart, with a smile like you have a secret plan to meet her wildest dreams and you can't wait to share it with her. That should show in your voice. Again, pull her in with enthusiasm, make her feel it over the phone. Well, I'm not trying to communicate to you that you don't already know some or all of this. Sometimes it seems to help us to hear it over again, especially when we are in the middle of a life altering crisis. One last thing - make notes about what she asks you - "who you were with, what you did." or whatever else she says. Then, listen when ever you go out, to other women that talk about the same things. Listen to how they respond, what makes them laugh, the direction they take the conversation. Use what you learn to meet your W's need for conversation - not only on the phone, but after she returns. Oh, shoot, ONE more last thing.
When you are a pole vaulter running down the lane, a few yards from making your vault. - that is not the time to ask yourself. " will I ever be good at this, am I going to fall." And also,
" I'll probably hit the bar, this will never work." This is the time when you need to tell yourself over and over again that you can do this, that she will come back all the way. There will be time later if it gets bad again to think about separation, and D. I see signs that she wants YOU. Right now, think only about the positive. Use all your energy in positive ways, positive thoughts. You are making the vault right now. Make this the best one you have ever had. When you wake up every day, tell yourself that there are things you can do TODAY that will make a difference. Then do that thing, or things you have planned to do. A few positive things, done every day for many days will make a huge difference. SS

Still Seeking - When my WW asked about what I was doing, I did give her the actual answer (at my nephews soccer match) and was pleasent about it..I actually talked about the game and other things. I did see it as an opportunity to throw it back at her and say why should I tell you what I am doing when you will not do this, but I recognized that if I did that it would be a LB and just picking a fight. My reaction was to "do unto others as you want done to you", I want her to talk so I should show her that I am willing to do this.She did call again this afternoon and we had an OK conversation. Sometimes it is just hard to know what to say when she doesn't say much of anything. But I did try to sound upbeat and interested things at her Mom's house.

Today's updateWW called around noon and left message. When I called her back, I told her we (my friend and I) were at my sister's house eating lunch and socializing because my cousin was in town visiting. I also told where we went last night and the things we did. WW sounded very unhappy and stated that she was not having a good trip. She said that our daughter was up part of the night and she did not get sleep. She also said that she felt like she had spent the trip chasing our daughter and it was not relaxing at all. I hope she realizes if she is on her own with joint custody, there will plenty of times when there is nobody to help her with our daughter. I did tell her that I missed her and I have been thinking about her. She had no response for this. She did say that she hoped we were not destroying the house. She also said she probably would not call again today, and would call from the road tommorrow after she leaves. She will be surprised to see that I have cleaned the house and will be shampooing the carpets today. Oh well, it doesn't appear she is going to come home recharged or closer to a decision. On the other hand I think it may be an opportunity for her to be happy being back home and if I can make it pleasent for her this could be a plus. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I had not been very good at helping in the home. ( I did good with the yard, but not inside.) When I started helping, my wife thought it was just a ploy at first. It took about 3 months before she would accept that I realy did care and wanted to make her life a little easier. After that, she started to respond - sloooowly. You may not see much change from day to day. But month to month you may. She might even be angry at first because when you do nice things, it makes her look even worse for going after OM. When she feels guilty, she may get mad and lash out at YOU. If she does, don't take the bait. Be nice no matter what. You are going to get some tests. Make sure you pass. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Are you doing okay?

No time to post everything I am feeling right now. Lets just say it is all bad. Yesterday was the absolute bottom for me. I'm not sure if there is anything left in the tank. I'll give the full update later.

Onwardandup,I am sorry you had a terrible day. It seems nothing I do is right with my WW, since I do so much around the house anyway, I do not think anything I do will make any impression. I kind of wish I was a real bad husband and father before all of this so that even something small would make an impression. I seem to think you are in the same boat with me.

Well here it goes. I had a decent weekend with WW away and did everything concievable around the house to please her. When my friend and I got back from the soccer match on Sunday WW was already home and was ICE COLD toward me. After we ate dinner, she came to me and said I've got something to do I'll be out for a few hours. I told her that it is her choice what she wants to do. So she left...Needless to say, here I was looking forward to her coming home and she had the nerve to leave as soon as I got home. On top of that we had a mutual friend here and she blew him off too. So I was raging. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I don't think I have ever been so mad in my life. I screamed and yelled and went crazy (my friend was realy impressed [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ). I just could not believe she had the nerve to go see him.When she got back, I was so angry I went in my office and did not want to see her. So she comes in and starts with this "I'm so sorry I have hurt you". She then says "I want to go back to marriage counseling". Unfortunatly, she had pushed me too far this time. I couldn't even listen to her (there was just nothing good left for me to feel towards her). I told her I would have to think about the counseling, I just wasn't there at this moment. I never yelled or said something bad, but I was on empty. She ended up crying again.She asked me to sleep in our bedroom and I did and held her. I felt good holding her, but I slept about 1 hour (still haven't slept now). In the morning the same feelings of hate, hurt, and pain were still there just as strong. I am not one to hold anger for a long period and this just doesn't feel right.Today she called and tried to suggest that she went to break it off with him, but this was only me reading between the lines. She did not come out and say anything. I told her, I don't understand what is going on and she needs to talk to me.This evening she said nothing and I was still to angry to start a conversation without LBing.I do know that he (OM) called her 20+ times while she was away and she did not call him nearly as much. I'm just not sure of anything right now. In some respects I just want to stop the pain, and I do not want to give her the opportunity to hurt me again. I realize I need to chill for a few days, see how I feel, and talk to her and try to understand what is going on. But I am so angry [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

It sounds like your demeanor has made a big impression with your WW. It sounds like she is trying to patch things up. Go with your feelings on this. You have every right to be angry. I would be angry.What is interesting to me about all of this is your WW response to your anger. Since this is out of character for you, it seems that this has made a big impression on her. I think that the problem with Plan Aing all the time is that it makes the WW's feel that we are O.K. with them continuing to see the OM. I think a good outburst here and there once every one to two weeks is healthy, to put things back into perspective, to make the WW's see all of the pain and hurt they are causing us, and to once again feel guilty for the terrible things they are doing to us. I feel that I am very effective at Plan A, and this makes my WW feel exonerated of her actions. As soon as I see this in her, I bring her back down to reality by calmly describing how much pain I am in and how I hurt she is inflicting on me. Occassionally, I will remind her that the road she has chosen will lead to me leaving her, and I will not stomache another man in our marriage for much longer.A few weeks ago, I printed out seperation papers off the internet (free!). I gave these to her at one of those times she was on cloud 9. I went through an explanation that I did not want to seperate, but I did want it crystal clear the choices we have in life right now. I told her that I wanted to make sure to protect mine and her rights so that when and if I decided to leave, it would not be viewed as abandement. I told her to begin thinking of custody etc. I am sure this placed an indelable image on her mind, one that will stay with her while she is thinking about the OM.Maybe you should try something like this. If you do, be careful that it does not push her into wanting to seperate. You have got to make sure that she can handle this. It is a little dangerous and it is a huge LB.

The anger is a little subsided today, I think sleep helped. This morning WW wanted to know if I would hug her before she left. I did but I couldn't bring myself to say I love you.Dreamland - Have you been to marriage counseling? What has been your experience?I remember you saying that if your wife's PA was continuing that you would have had enough. What are your limits?

I have not been to MC. My wife does not want to go and right now, I feel better than ever, so I do not want to go for just me. I would like to eventually go to MC with WW just to get a fresh perspective. My WW and I are communicating very well and as long as this continues and is open I think we may not need MC. I really do not know. I am scared of MC because I do not agree with all the popular theropy, and christian MC's rarely are qualified to give opinions. You can tell I still have not decided what to do about MC. Right now the only MC I would have any confidence is Dr. Harley, and even then, I do not think he understands the importance of unconditional love in all of this.You are right about my limits. If she is having a PA now, it would be devistating to me. I can forgive her for the past PA, but I am not sure about a PA now. I probably would go to Plan B almost immediately. I have no tolerance for PA, but that is just me. However, knowing my forgiveness level, I would probably forgive her because of my deep unconditional love, and return to Plan A. I would then post as D-day #2. It is hard to say in these things with 100% assurity how I would react.If she continued her A for more than six months, I will move to plan B. I think this is enough agony for me.In a much more positive note, I took my wife to the Hootie and Blowfish concert here. We had a great time. The concert was at an ampi-theatre where you can bring in small tables (TV-trays) for a dinner. I had a caterer bring in food (crab cakes, prime rib, and great desserts.) It was delicious. I had a white table cloth, prety floral arrangement, and red wine. I can see this had a very positive influence on her. I am almost convinced that the secret to marriage is to never stop dating (dating = romance?), and the secret to Plan A is to date. I am going to plan some more of these type things (maybe not as expensive).Have you tried to take her out to dinner or a movie or planned a special occasion?

I have not had the opportunity to go out on a date yet. We have talked about it, but never been able to make it happen.I was planning on doing something this weekend, but right now I don't know if I am up to it. I guess I am just so confussed because she doesn't talk to me and I am left having no idea if she is coming or going. I've tried to tell her it is important that we talk, but she always seems to go back to the I don't want to talk now or I'm not ready to talk. I haven't pushed her any, but it just leaves me not knowing anything, confused, and angry.

Main question is "Do you LOVE her". If so, make a date to go see Spiderman or something like that this weekend. If she does not go, go by yourself. I saw Episode II with WW and kids. The kids tag teamed us, but it was fun to go out anyway. At a movie, you do not have to talk and it will be good for you to forget about your troubles for a while.The anger will pass. You must remember that she is in a fog and Plan A will not necessarily get a response. She is not going to drop the OM overnight. Try to think about other things. How about just renting a movie for yourself tonight?

Hi. Good grief. Sounds like the latter part of Sunday was awful. I think taking a couple of days to cool off is a very good idea. Most people in your situation wouldn't be able to do that, and I give you a ton of credit for managing your emotions at such a difficult time. Concerning the "suggestion" that your W was trying to end it with the OM, all I can say is this: "trying" is a cop out, and she is probably trying to throw you enough crumbs to keep you hanging on, without making any sacrifices herself. For you to have even a chance at reconciliation, the A has to be completely over. You know it, I know it, and intellectually, your W knows it, too. And if it isn't, and you go back to marriage counseling while your spouse is still in regular personal contact with the OP, it will be a huge waste of time for both of you. If your W still has the OM and is going to counseling with you, she's not giving your marriage a fair chance. Anyone who says that an infidelity is "irrelevant" to his or her marriage just doesn't get it. So you don't get the wrong idea, I am not at all an advocate for throwing in the towel. I have been separated for a year, and my H says he doesn't want a divorce; he's just kind of immobile right now and doesn't know what he wants. You will find it's very difficult to live in that kind of limbo and not have any closure. I think that's one of the worst parts of this whole process - You hope your marriage isn't over. You suspect it is. You're in pain and want a decision to be made, one way or another. Your spouse can decide to (1) reconcile or (2) end it. You only have the power to end it; you don't have the power to reconcile unilaterally. So you wait, and try to make positive changes to convince your spouse he/she wants to reconcile. And occasionally you backslide, because you can't take the ups and downs and the stress of not knowing how it's going to turn out. Sometimes you backslide because you feel like you are the one who has been hurt the most, and it's so unfair that your spouse is unapologetic, while you take the entire burden of what went wrong in the relationship onto your shoulders. And your relationship becomes the most important thing in your universe and you can't think about anything else but that. And you can stay that way for a while, but eventually, you have a decision before you - something you CAN control:Is life going to make you bitter, or is it going to make you better? Because there are positives to come out of this process too, if you allow them. You will learn more about yourself than you ever did before. You hopefully learn to accept what's happened, and to accept a PROPORTIONATE share of responsibility for the current state of your marriage. You come face to face with your faults and you make a concerted effort to improve yourself, and you become a better person for it. You figure out that, despite your faults, you are overall a decent person, and you acted honorably and did everything you could to save your marriage. That makes you feel pretty good about yourself, despite your pain, which makes you feel much better in general about life. You start doing things for yourself because you deserve it, being the good person that you are, and because you actually start feeling pleasure again that is separate and apart from your relationship with your spouse. You relax your concentration on your relationship, accept that you can't control your spouse and you stop trying, focusing more on yourself and trying to figure out the things that make you happy. You then begin to realize that YOUR LIFE WILL GO ON AND YOU WILL BE JUST FINE, EVEN IF YOU ARE ALONE. And then at some point way down the line, you actually believe it. (and of course that's the precise moment when your spouse comes running back, ruining all of your progress. Just kidding)So far, from what I can see, you're doing great and are well on your way. Good luck.

I do still love her. Its just that right now with everything I feel, I don't want to be hurt again. Unfortunately, I am certain that I will be hurt by her again. Of course, it is not her hurting me, but me in my mind creating the hurt. For me this is the price I pay because if I shut of my feelings toward her to prevent the pain there will be nothing left.I do feel slightly better today. I think I just need to hang low and let the pain subside for a few days. I am not going to start any conversations with her and just try to "hang loose". I have my IC counseling session tommorrow and I'm sure that will help me feel better. I'm still exhausted and since my daughter is taking a nap, I think I will try to catch a little more sleep.

Unfortunately, you are right about the pain part. Whenever you love, their will be pain, and in our circumstances, AGONIZING PAIN <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> . People are not perfect, and we have hurt our spouses as well, just not as deeply as this in my opinion. Good luck in hanging loose. That is a tough thing to do. Post later, I am curious as to how this recent event plays out. I wonder if she is thinking of ways to make you feel better about all of this so she does not loose you.

In a way, I kind of feel I have said too much already on your thread. But I would like to throw one thing out there for you - There is much accumulated wisdom on these boards. Nothing you are going through is new ( I don't mean to diminish your pain, I know it's new for you . ) What I mean is that everything has already been tried. People here can tell you what can actually work. Please wander around some of the old threads for a while. You can get a lot of ideas and strength. Note not every marriage can be saved. HOWEVER, in every case that I have read, no one ever regretted a good plan A. They always felt, succeed, or fail, that they had done everything that could be done. They were at peace, and they were HAPPY. I still think your wife wants to come back. hjl pointed out that "trying is a copout." I guess it kind of is. But many WS's never even try. Remember that people need help giving up addictions. She appears to be asking for help. She has a weakness, and has admitted it ( hey, she wants counseling.) You can get angry she has the addiction, or if you are strong enough, you can help. Only you know which. SS

HJL -If you didn't see it there was another person looking for some information or just to talk to you today (the post is titled "to hjl"). Cheers.

I am so f***ing confused I haven't been able to think for a whole day or even now (this seems like a long time to me). So last night we kind of got into it a little. She saw a letter about my life insurance and came to the conclusion, I had taken her off as the beneficiary. In reality my coverage had lapsed and it was for reinstatement (I spent half of the night searching for the letter to verify this is what realy happened). Then she started in about how she needs her privacy. She kept saying that she believes she should have private things from me. I didn't realy go off, I just stated that from my point of view there should be nothing private in a marriage and that is where we have gone wrong in the past. We realy didn't fight and I said some appologetic things about LBing I had done since this all began two months ago.In the morining I asked her if there was anything she wanted me to address at my IC session (I usually give her this chance...why not, at least it is one way to see what is on her mind). She said no and then called after she left for work and said she wanted me to talk about joint counseling.My father came over and told me that my sister had seen my WW on Sunday before I got home from the soccer match. He stated that according to my sister, WW was angry and making remarks about how she wanted to get the house. I just don't understand how this fits in with her "wanting to go to joint counseling".At my IC session, my counsleor warned me that it is impossible to interpret what my WW is saying. She said that I need to be prepared to be hurt again if I choose to continue to try and work things out. She stated that the signals from my WW were so confused and they could mean anything. She was happy with how I have been coping. I kind of feel the same way about the signals I have been getting, and I was thinking of starting a conversation with WW about what is going on. Thanks Dreamland and others for the advice, after IC session I rented a couple of movies to watch and relax tonight. After WW came home I decided not to hit her with my requirement to end the A and all contact before going to counseling (I had set this boundary after our first session). I just decided to let it slide and see what happens without starting a conversation.WW never asked about joint counseling, so I told her I rented movies and she was free to watch them with me. She sat on the other side of the room and only in the last 1/2 hour of the movie would she sit by me. After the movie I hugged her and she started to cry quite a bit. I asked her if she was OK and she didn't say anything. This went on for for a while and I just held her. Eventually she said she was going to bed. I hugged her and she was still teary eyed. I told her I love her and asked if I could kiss her. She let me and then went to bed.So at the end of the day, nothing is resolved and the confusion has multiplied. I truely do not understand anything that is going on. This is so difficult when she shows emotions or actions and yet tells me nothing. I think the best thing to do is not waste time and energy trying to interpret things, only time will tell (if she ever talks or her actions take a firm direction).

I was wondering about you.. I am sorry things are so hard, But your hanging in there. Just be patient.

Mom of Five - Thanks for the support. It is just so hard when you have no idea what is realy going on. I'm now going by the day by day approach (or hour by hour). This will work for a while since I am finished with school for the summer and will have less stress. I just hope at some point she starts to open up. I know I can't try to bring it out of her, but it is so difficult to know something is in there (when she cries) and yet she keeps it from me.

your wife has a lot of emotions going on, I believe if she truly did not want to be there she would be gone. sometimes we dont know what we want. I will catch up on your post and write more tomorrow. start thinking about your self, take the little one out to play. they do wonders for your spirits. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey - Sorry I have been out of touch for the last day. I meant to get in touch with you earlier this evening but couldn't. I read your last two posts and I really feel for you. It's tough, the situation you're in. But it's not at all unusual. Your W doesn't want to confide in you right now, so I wouldn't expect it. She's bouncing around a lot, kind of on her own rollercoaster. So it might not be a good idea to place too much importance on anything she says or does. She's confused so she's giving you mixed signals. I think you need to stick with what has been working so far - what is it that you have been doing so far that has NOT produced a negative reaction from your W? Hang in there. HOh - and thanks for the heads up about the other post.

HJL-The question is...what is a negative reaction? I don't know if it is good or bad when she cries, it seems like this happens when we are close or communicating at a good level.On the other hand I can say that everytime I try to have a substantive conversation about her A or what she is feeling/thinking she goes into a lockdown and gets cold.I also think that when I do more (or should I say all) things around the house she is happy. Of course I would be happy to get this treatment also, while I was out having fun. At least I consider that I am doing if for my daughter, since she lives here more than either me or my WW.

Ok so I just like coming here to ponder things...This afternoon I talked with my sister. She relayed some of the conversation she had with WW on Sunday. In a nutshell, WW said she is not in love with me, wants to get the house in a divorce, can't stand me, etc. She also was unhappy having spent the last five days with our daughter and didn't like taking care of her. She also admitted the A to her and said she wasn't going to give him up. She also stated that she wanted me to give up my Ph.D. schooling. Needless to say I did not like to hear these things (especially since she doesn't say them to me). [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] So after she came home, she wanted to go for a walk. She couldn't get the garage door to close and asked for my help. I started to go over and she said "No, just tell me what to do...I want to be able to do things myself". I let the anger from what my sister said get to me and said "Isn't that what you have been doing for the last two months". Needless to say things were cold for a little while.We still went for the walk, and I tried to make up for the LB by being calm and offering small talk. When we got back, I made dinner and we talked. She started by telling me that my comment earlier was a big withdrawl from her love bank (I did not know she had one, or expected that she would remember anything from reading SAA). I told her I was sorry. I also told her my love bank had been suferring withdrawls for the last two months. She then wanted to know what my decision was about counseling. I told her that I had needed to time to figure out how I felt after Sunday night. I then stated that I was willing to go, but did not want to get hurt anymore. I told her what has been going on has hurt me and that I was willing to expose myself to more hurt. I told her that without her talking to me, I can not have any reasonable expectations of her actions and would probably get hurt by her continued relationship with the OM. She still did not talk to me about the A or offer anything except that she wanted to go to counseling. I did tell her that I was feeling good about myslelf and knew I would be OK no matter what. At this point she did say she did not like it when I said this. I told her that I was not saying this because I was ready to let go, but that it is important for me to feel good about myself so that I can feel good about our relationship and meet her needs.We then watched another movie I had rented. She would not sit near me let me offer any affection. When the movie was over she hugged me and began to cry again. I asked her if she was OK, and she said that it was all so difficult (nothing more). We hugged and I asked if I could kiss her again, she said yes so we kissed. Progress?...Status Quo?...Who the heck knows?........

Hi.Negative reactions are coldness, withdrawal, anger. Things like that. If she's crying, seems like she's at least expressing some awareness of loving feelings she may still have for you. I would back off on the asking her for kisses, etc. Thaat's pursuit. You might want to let her initiate physical contact, otherwise she might feel like you're pushing her. Be patient. you're doing the best you can.

One other thing - no way do you give up the PhD. No way.

onwardandup,Sorry I have not jumped in with any comments for the past two days. I have been out of town and had no access to internet. I missed this message board.Well, you have had a lot going on it seems. I think you need to spend a little more time trying to pry information out of your WW. If a she is tight lipped, you need to dig it out of her. She really wants you to try harder. Men give up so easily about this. No means yes. Next time she starts crying, turn off the movie, she wants to talk, and that is why she is crying. She is trying to reach out to you. If you leave the TV on, it says you are not interested in her and what she has to say. If it every happens again, turn the TV off, turn toward her and look at her deeply in her eyes, give her your undivided attention, and ask her what is wrong. If she says nothing, it means she wants you to try harder and work at it. Reply saying something like, "I am very interested in how you are feeling. I try to guess all the time how you are feeling. Please share with me why you are crying. Have I hurt you." If she continues by saying nothing is wrong, she is really playing a game with you. She is doing this to see how much you really care for her. If you do not work at it, she gets a signal that you are not really interested in what she has to say. I know that this is very silly, but women love these games. Learn to play the game, it makes them feel wonderful. After the second rejection of her not confiding in you, you try the final tactic which is confinding in her your feelings. Tell her how you are feeling about anything. Give her a little bit of yourself, so that she feels comfortable talking about her feelings. Tell her that it makes you very hurt to see her cry, and you desperately want to know she is feeling. Go into more detail about how she makes you feel when she does not confide in you. I have been very successful in reading women this way. At first I was like you. I thought no means no. Unfortunately, it is not that easy. Most of the time, no means yes. However, to confuse things, sometimes no does mean no, but you will never know until you try. Look at how she is responding to you. Some women will give a tiny bit of a pout face or a fake sad look. Beware, the game has begun. I have started to enjoy this quite a bit. It makes me feel great that I was able to pull her feelings out of her. For example, the other night my WW was talking on the phone to a girlfriend. It started getting late, and I was a bit upset that she was ignoring me all night, so I retired to bed. She came upstairs with a glass of wine and said "ohh, you are sleeping." I said, "yes I decided to go to bed. I am tired." She then said that she was hoping she could watch a little bit of TV to unwind, but she said "I see you are trying to sleep." Well I knew immediately that the games began. I said no thats O.K. come on in and turn the TV on. She said, "no, I will go back downstairs," and she turned out to walk down the stairs. Acting fast, I got up and turned the bedroom light on. Sat up in bed and said come on in lets talk." She turned around and came back in. This is just one of many many times she has played these kind of games.It will be very hard getting her to talk now. You two have a lot between you now. Try to remember back to when you were dating. You have to treat your conversations as though you are just getting to know her, and you are very interested in every word she says. You have to make her feel that she is safe with you, and she probably is not getting this feeling.Sorry for rambling about this one thing. IMHO: I thought it might be helpful for you to know that I do not think she is intending not to tell you how she is feeling. I think she is playing normal women games. Do not get frustrated or upset, work the game, and remember do not give up until she starts to get mad at you. Try this and let me know if it works.About all those nasty things she said about you to your sister, ignore what she said. Women rarely mean what they say, but they mean what they do. Women act this way, and think that men are the same way, so they read our "non verbals" ,as my WW tells me, to see how we really feel. So you have to be very careful about how you act and be mindful that she is not paying attention as much to what you are saying, but what you are doing.[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]

Every WS that has A says these same negitive things. All the ones that reconcile say it too.
She will probably say them all the way back to a loving life with you. Agree with what dreamland said about conversation. SS

Good news. For the semester that just ended I had to take one class as an incomplete to finish a paper this summer. For the other two classes I recieved an A and an A+. I wanted to rub it in my WW's face and say "see I still succeeded, despite what you are doing to me". Of course, I didn't but I am gloating on the inside.BTW, we had sex this morning (sorry HJL I know as my friend you don't want to hear this, but you should read). I was the one who started it, yes this may be pursuit, but it felt good at the time. On the other hand, I think both of us were thinking what are we doing afterwards. I will try to cool this off a little, and work more on non-sexual affection and other needs (hopefully not in a manner that shows pursuit).I also called for the counseling appt. today. It may be a waste, but my insurance covers everything in whole.HJL - Don't worry about the Ph.D. I have no intention of stoping what I am doing. The pursuit line seems very fine to me. If I don't show my emotions, she feels like I am giving up or not interested. When I do show my emotions, she sometimes is repelled. I think I just need to know when is the right time and when it is not the right time.Dreamland - I think you are right, but the difficulty is that in the past No has meant No for her. She is very stubborn so getting to the point where she is mad only makes things worse. I think I just need to start working with small things and get her comfortable talking more with me in general. I think this means talking about good things, or non-threatening things. Once some of this comfort is built up, I think the situation would improve.I have never been good at playing the type of game you describe. Part of that is not understanding, and part of it is misinterpretation of the signals. I will certainly be more aware of what I do in addition to what I say. As for my WW she is so mad and unhappy most of the time it is hard to know when is a good time. I think getting her to have some fun would be extremely important. The weekend is kind of booked, but maybee next week we could go out.

Onward, You've got it. You are past the scared stage, you have setteled down and are doing the work. It must feel better to you. Your actions can affect the outcome for good. The down days will still come. Just try to recgonize them for what they are, and avoid major discussions until the depression / anger is gone. AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK !
SS[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

onward I am so proud of you for getting the A'S That is great success, You should be proud, and dont ever give up your dream. It IS IMPORTANT IF YOU DID , YOU WOULD REGRET IT FOREVER.. I DONT BELIEVE YOUR WIFE WOULD WANT YOU TO EITHER.
Sometimes, It is hard not to be close with the one we love and want to be close to, But you are doing a great job. I havent heard you mention the phone calls to OM have they stopped? She is spending more time with you and even taking a walk is great progress, since you are doing a plan A.
I may have missed something, has she made a no contact letter to the OM or are they talking at all?
Seems you confronting him has not hurt you as much as you thought, and perhaps helped you get some of this out of your system, although not something you should continue to do as this will certainly not help you.
Just wanted to give you HIGH FIVE on the grades and see how you were.
HANG IN THERE

Another update - This weekend was the best I have spent with my WW since everything began. We spent a lot of time together and she showed some signs of affection toward me. One thing I have realized is that although she did not rank recreational companionship very highly, it is something that causes her to have a very positive reaction. As I think back, this was the case in the past and I just didn't realize it. Just doing yard work and projects together seems to change her whole perspective. She was even interested in SF after spending quality time together.We are planning to go out to dinner (just the two of us) this week.For other big changes, she has invited me back into the master bedroom for the last three nights (I was so nervous, I had to take a sleeping pill the first night). She also spent a great part of the weekend talking about future things. She wants us to start building a deck on the house. She wanted to talk about accomodations when we got to two weddings later this summer. She even made a comment about our schedules in the fall when I return to school.I am not getting my hopes up (don't want a big letdown) and will just continue to do what seems to be working with no pressure.Mom of Five - The contact with the OM hasn't ended (even without the phone calls, she works with him everyday). There has been no discussion of a no-contact letter or her changing job even though she knows how I feel...I don't think it is wise to push the issue. She still has not opened up to me with any information about the EA/PA. As for the frequency of calls, it seems diminished. I know she did not talk to him after Saturday AM until going to work today (that is the longest I think they have gone with out talking in months). Over that period he left four messages on her cell phone (yes, I checked...but only to see if there were messages and if they had talked...I have never tried to listen to the messages). I think it is good sign that she was not constantly checking for his messages and responding. I can only hope he LBs her about not calling him (he doesn't seem the type, but I can hope).All in all, it seems like there is some progress.

GREAT NEWS!!I am happy for you. It is smart that you are protecting your feelings. Please try to remember that undoubtably, she will talk to him again, so prepare yourself for this so that it does not get you down. She will not give the OM up that fast, it will just slowly fade.Now that you mention it, recreational companionship makes a big difference with my WW too. I guess it is a time where you can loose yourself in the moment and enjoy each other.It is good that you two are going on a date. Dates make a big difference.Keep up the good work.

Well, things are still going better.I planned a great date at a place where she had been mentioning for years that she wanted to go. She called from work and said she was going to be late, I started to LB about her not caring about our going out but stoped. I knew she was upset and not happy about having to work late.I called and moved our reservation back so we could still go. On the drive I could tell she was still unhappy so I only offered a little small talk to ease the tension. We ended up having a great dinner (a little expensive) but it was a good time together. No relationship talk, but just a relaxed time for us without our daughter.At home last night when we were in bed her co-worker who had a previous relationship with the OM called. She wanted to talk to WW and find out how our dinner went. After WW got off the phone we talked about how her co-worker was still interested in OM and that she was trying to find out how we were doing. I said "She is checking up on you becasue she knows you are in her territory with the OM". I also said "she has probably been watching and knows that the two of you have been together". WW agreed with what I said and we talked a little about her work situation. I stayed away from any direct questions about the OM or her getting a new job. It was very difficult because I wanted to get her talk, but I know if I push it doesn't work. At one point she stated "I don't know why she (co-worker) is concerned about me and OM, I don't want him". While we were out WW also got a beep on her cell phone letting her know there was a message I'm sure from OM), but she didn't check the message. This morning she didn't check the message again. I think this is positive since I gave her the opportunity to check her messages on the cell phone.WW also wanted me to hold her this morning and then initiated SF. At least she is now wanting me to meet these needs for her. Since this was a problem in our marriage, I'm glad we are at least getting past that one barrier. I general, the signs still seem positive, but I know there is a long way to go. I am still trying to set up marriage counseling with a new counselor and she seems very interested in trying counseling again.

You are doing a great job!!!All of the burden on making our marriages work is heavily dependent upon doing Plan A from the heart (with unconditional love) and being the best and most positive we can. I have noticed myself how important it is never to mention the OM unless she brings it up. It makes her feel safe.Good job on the date. Keep it up. I just bought some tickets for the Rolling Stones concert in October for my WW and I. I told her about the date and I am keeping what we are doing a secret. She loves this. It makes her feel safe that I am planning things for the future with her in mind.I wish my wife would give me some SF, but I will wait until it is time. We cuddle alot and it is sure difficult to hold back when we are cuddling in bed at night. It is hard to fall asleep, but I know it is making a difference, and it is important for her to know I can cuddle with her and not need to have sex.Good luck, the closer you two get the more she will start opening up. Be patient, and plan some more dates. They are the life blood of a relationship.

When you first started posting, I was worried about you being able to run your plan A. You were angry much of the time and even though it looked like your wife was showing signs of choosing you over OM, you could have driven her away. At this point you should be happy with your efforts. I believe she will be yours if you continue to live what you have learned. May I make some observations about things that I have learned in the 4 months I have been trying to live MP principals. 1. You will mess up some days. But the more careful you are, and the more you review the material, the less problems you have. 2. You can defuse some of the mistakes by talking about it before hand. " W, I am trying to change my life, it will be slow, if I mess up, please talk to me about it instead of holding it against me and getting angry." That is the short version, When I had this talk with my wife, she could already tell that I was trying so she agreed to work on it with me. It ended up being a long talk and was very good for us. 3. Thank her when she does talk about it, instead of getting defensive. 4. SHE will make mistakes also, don't start feeling like " well, with all I have done, this is the LAST STRAW." Give her some room, ( like you are already doing) and let her come back every time. 5. The big problem is when you both make mistakes at the same time. Be willing to ask for forgiveness even when it is not your fault. It will make things better again if you are willing to be humble even when you should not have to. ( which pretty much describes how you have been acting the last few weeks anyway.) 6. This is long term, you will need to review this stuff every year, even after you think things are back to normal. If not, you may someday find that your marriage is in trouble again. Anyone can fly off the handle, rant and rave, and file for D. It takes a real man to make things work out even after all your W has done. It feels pretty good, doesn't it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I wish you luck but find that much of the time we make our own luck. I think you are doing a good job making yours. SS

WW is planning on going out of town for the weekend to see a friend. I think I realy surprised her by deciding to take our daughter and go out of town myself. I am going to visit some friends in D.C. for the weekend and I even called SIL and offered to meet her so she could see her niece.Things still seem on on a positive trend, no major breakthoughs, but WW's fog is definitely not so think at all. She continues to talk about the future, but also about the future of her job and working with the OM. I am staying away from the subject and just let her talk for now.Even though she is going away for the weekend, she keeps making the following comments. "I am going to miss both of you", "It is strange to think that the two of you are leaving". I stated "Well, you are going out of town, we are just going to take the opportunity to do something fun". She replied "I just expected you to be at home, and "it seems wierd to think that you will not be there". Oh well, I will be at my friend's house (HJL on the MB forum) so I can still check-in (yes, I have to at least once a day).

Onwardandup,Have not heard from you in a while. Are you O.K. Are you out there? I hope things are getting better for you.

Dreamland - I have just been too busy to spend much time doing anything (including posting). Part of the busy relates to the WORLD CUP SOCCER which is my favorite sport.I have read your most recent thread and I think you have the right idea. For me things started getting better once I divorced myself from the A and the OM. I no longer bring it up and if my WW brings it up I don't say too much. I realize this is hard and not talking about it doesn't make it go away. The same thing goes for the EN questionaire, don't try and force a realionship conversation when she isn't ready.At the end of the day it is a lot easier to survive when you just do what you think is right (plan A) and don't expect anyhting in return (remember the unconditional love). I have been busy because I have increased my plan A and when I am not watching my daughter, I have done an incredible number of projects and spent time with my WW...with no strings.As for my situation it is back in a postive trend. We went to a new marriage counselor last week (she didn't like the first one). Saddly for her, this counselor was even more aggressive in suggesting she end the A and must eventually get a new job. I played my new role and stated "I'm OK if we talk about other issues first and leave the A and OM till after we have sorted out some of the other issues". WW agreed to continue seeing this counselor and we are going agian tommorrow night. I even was able to make light of the fact that the counselor got confused and called me by the OM's name [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] .The weekend was OK and my WW initiated (or at least told me to initiate) SF on Sunday after I spent the entire day digging a 50 foot trench to burry a pipe from the downspout of a house gutters (something she really wanted done).This morning I took our daughter to visit WW at work (she asked me to visit and OM is out of town). Later in the afternoon she called from work and actually got emotional and stated that she didn't want a divorce. She stated that she wanted to work things out and was going to try her hardest to make it work. I didn't push the relationship talk and just told her I wanted things to work out also (I think this no-pushing is very important). I know this all sounds good, but I also realize actions are more important than words. I checked her cell phone tonight and saw she called OM (he is out of town for the week) after I visited in the morning but before she called in the afternoon.I know I still have a long way to go, but at least there is hope and some positive signals.To answer your other questions....She kicked me out of the room last week for one night because I talked to my friends about the situation (I guess this information may have helped you)....I think she returns from her trips in a bad mood becasue she sees that I have had a good time without her. In this last case she was unhappy that I could go away with our daughter and still have fun while chasing a 18 mo. old "monkey".

Some good positive signs. I am happy for you. I hope both of our WW continue to loose their feelings for the OM's. I am not sure now how much in the past three months my WW has lost feelings for OM. I am now begining to see that you have got to take every positive sign with two grains of salt. The feelings our WW's have for the OM seem to be up and down like a roller coaster as well.I am glad to see that you sound very good. Part two of the Plan A (yourself) seems to be working great. You are right about the unconditional love. I have got to keep coming back to this.It is good to here you post again. I hope you stay in touch with us here at the forum. It is great to have a support group, and I am thankful you are out there to help me.

Dreamland - Just a quick thought on feeling good. The day I started to feel better was the day when I made the appointment to see someone about antidepressents. This step made all the difference, because in my mind I realized I could take control of my life and how I was feeling. I started taking Effexor but since I immediately started feeling better I never increased the dosage and I only take 1/2 of the normal dose.I realize antidepressents aren't for everyone and in my case I don't think they were the key to the change in my attitude. The key to feeling better was the act of taking control of my life. I also have benefited greatly from my individual counseling. Church is also helpfull.I only make these observations because they may help you figure out what it is that you could do to turn the corner on feeling better. If you can find some way to assert control over your life I think it would make all the difference in the world. At the end of the day it is not our WWs that make us feel bad but our reactions and we can choose what these reactions are.

So here it is...Back in the doghouse again. We went to counseling again on Tuesday and it went well. I could actually think she was starting to engage and was interested in talking about what I could do to improve the marriage. I refuse to be optimistic and had thus prepared myself for something bad.So last night she came home in a bad mood and asked if I had talked about everything with my father and sister (this was a conversation I had over a month ago when all was bleak). I stated yes and she completly blew-up. She screamed and raved and was out of control in front of our daughter. I can understand why she is upset (I divulged personal information about her...not the A), but my intentions were purely good. I talked to my family about the things I had done wrong in the marriage so that they wouldn't look negativley on WW. The other information she was upset about was just part of the story and I now know I should have never said it. Unfortunatly, I did not know the depth of her feelings about this and to me the information was not central to the story I was telling. I know I was trying to do the right thing (and succeeded) becasue my sister came over and appologized to WW after I talked to her.After she had her explosion she asked me to leave and I went to my fathers for the evening. She never called, so I called and went home. I was again exiled from the bedroom. This morning she still will not talk to me. The only thing she has said was in reference to my individual counseling "You better talk about this in counseling becasue I don't know if I can ever forgive you".Right now she has asked me to go in my office at home so she doesn't have to see me. My only plan is to lay low until she decides to bring it up. If all is quiet for a couple of days I may bring it up. I did appologize after her blow-up so I'm not sure what she expects from me. It sucks constantly being accused of being the bad guy. In this case I was trying to make people not be mad at her and expose my flaws. If nothing else I can (cross my fingers) say there is nothing else I can think of that she could blame on me.

I am sorry for the events and for the downward turn. I unfortunately probably can't help too much now. I am feeling miserable right now and I can't post this on the main forum anymore. I feel like giving it all up. I can't get motivated to do anything. I have to get my wife a present for my WW's birthday on Friday and I do not have the energy to get out of my office chair. It is almost too late. I am sorry I do not have much to say. I will try again a little later. Maybe I need to punch myself in the face.

Dream, suck it up and get her something. This is a big chance to make deposits in her bank. Birthdays are special to women. Show her she is special to you you even if you are having a hard time feeling like she is.There are three kinds of gifts, thoughtful gifts ( oh, how nice.) Expensive gifts ( you shouldn't have) and Thoughtful Expensive gifts ( Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.... How did you ever manage it. )
Think on her a little bit, it should come to you. If you have to take a half a day off work tomorrow to get it done, then DO IT. ( my eyebrows are raised and I am looking at you like "are you getting this." ) And, BTW Dream, I think you have a good chance of making it work too, but we need a little more time to see. 
Onward, this kind of stuff will go on all your married life. ( 25 years for me) You can get through this like you have the other ones. (edit, Ok, they are not near as bad as they used to be, nor as often now that I have found MB.) The big thing is not to get tired of her ranting and give it back to her. Just be meek and mild and should she ever call you on your meekness, just say "Hon, I know it's my fault, I'm trying to repent." or whatever your words for that would be. I would think in between the blowups, you will see steady progress. Thanks for the update, I wondered how you are getting along. Dream, really, try the B-day present. Don't quit yet. SS[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

I am feeling a little better now. Maybe I just need to quit skipping meals. I have also noticed that if I drink a couple (or four) beers at night, I am depressed during the day. I should quit that too. Sorry for the vent post and sorry for stealing some of your air time here.
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Still Seeking,
I am planning to take half of the day off to get her a gift. I have a picked out a great gift, I just have to go get it. It is going to be tough to find. This will be a wow, I can't believe you remembered gift.
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Onwardandup,
Stick with it. The A will die. Odds are in our favor substantially. Try not to expect anything at all out of her until the A is completely dead. Remember the infatuation hormones take about a full two years from the start of the A to end provided the other guy does not LB himself to death. This is my hope. However, right now my wife is meeting with her boss and she will be going back to work and she will be working quite a bit under the OM (she briefly told me this in a break in her meeting so I am not sure for now). That really sucks, but I still have got the odds in my favor. WW wants me to leave and wants a D and has told me this a few times this week in a few more words than this. I am going to leave in my own time. When I ask her though if she really wants me to leave and D her she says no. Do not understand that.Try to concentrate on the good things again and why you married her. This helps me sometimes.

Hey Dream, ( sorry On, for using your space)
When she gets it, be prepared for a "on the surface" bad reaction. If she is deep in the fog, she won't want to acknoledge that you can do something right so sometims they appear to be angry ( they make up a reason.) If she goes this way, remember that you still get the points ( they keep score in their head of everything, you should know by now.) You will still get the points, even if she doesn't act like it. The rest sounds like standard fog (yes/no on D) Keep it up Dream, keep it up. See if you can hold out a little longer. SS[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Well after my last post I went outside and did some more projects the WW had wanted me to do. After a couple of hours she came out and watched me. Eventually I went over and asked if she wanted to talk. I sucked it up and told her how sorry, inconsiderate, stupid, etc. I am and have been. I don't know if any of it sank in, but she seemed better after that. She actually made dinner and started to talk to me. One thing I did tell her in the coversation related to our joint counseling. We were asked to each do something to improve the marriage before coming back. I told her that I was going to quit smoking since this was something that she realy does not like. Her reaction was "I can't think about doing anything for the marriage right now". I know this is not going to be easy, but it will have a big impact and it goes well with Plan A since it is also for me. Wish me luck over the next few weeks. After dinner she asked if it would be OK to invite our new neighbors over for drinks tomorrow night. This seems bizzare to me. If things are so bad at home why would you want to invite total strangers over???? Of course, I told her this would be fine with me.One thing that is strange that I have noticed is that she now calls me by first name instead of honey or something like that (this has been the case for a while). I guess that is part of her keeping the attachment limited. I don't know but it would seem strange to me if I tried to call my WW by her name.Still Seeking - You are right about not letting it get to you. When she gets angry, I either answer and talk calmly or find a way to end the conversation before it gets out of hand. In some ways being associated with MB has helped me to not let what she says get to me.I will have to say that I have never seen her angry or in a state of rage like last night ever before. I did call her sister just to know if she had any insight into how I should act. She stated that she had not heard her sister so upset ever before. I guess what I did was a big granddaddy of of a mistake. The only positive of it may be that she eventually starts to get over "the information" which she has been holding inside for many years. Before anyone asks...I will not mention the nature of the "information" here, but it is one of those things that different people react to in thier own manner. I talked about it because I did not consider the gravity with which she viewed the information.Dreamland - Yes, get the gift but be prepared for a less than enthusiastic thank you. Like Still Seeking said the outward reaction is not the same as what is happening inside.I would also caution you about skipping meals and a few beers. I get into this pattern (especially skipping meals) and it has caused me to loose 20+ pounds (which I did not need to loose). I now make sure I get all my meals and snacks and my weight is slowly coming back. I really haven't had the urge for any alcohol lately, but when I do decide to drink I usually regret it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think drinking is bad but you need to watch it when you are feeling down or not eating all you should be. I don't want to sound like I'm preaching, you know what your limits are and what is right for you. I only offer my comments, since I've felt some of the same effects.I'm still as confused as ever about what you WW is saying. It seems to me that she wants you to make the decision for her. My WW also expected me to leave or file for a D. When she finally realized that I wasn't it started to sink in that the decision was going to fall to her. With that realization she has started to make her slow progress. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@One last thought. For anyone reading this please watch the USA soccer match tomorrow morning(6/14). I have a passion for soccer ever since I spent time in Brazil and you will not be disapointed. (yes this is one small way I keep my sanity...I refuse to let the avalanch of events in my life keep me from enjoying a few things). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello, O. Sorry I have been out of touch for a while. How are you?

Onward, It has been 4 1/2 months for me since I found MB. Things are going pretty good for us. ( OK, really good.) We do not have an A to magnify our problems, but I was really good at Love Busting and had driven my wife away. When I first started plan A I just quit love busting because that was the worst problem for us. I asked my wife to talk to me about how I could improve and she just said "It's too painful for me to talk about, so no, I can't help you." That was it. I asked her if I could explain what I was attempting to do and she said I could. So I took a short time and explained my plan. I told her the end result was for me to correct my faults. She was meeting many of my needs even then, but SF, admiration, conversation and affection had fallen off because it's hard for a women to keep those up when she dislikes the person she has to do them with. I told her there would be times when I would slip up, and that I would try to just walk away for a while and come back when I could talk without getting angry. Sometimes she will tell me to walk - and I do. When I come back, I realize every time that if things were handled better, and if we communicated better, many of the problems would cease to exist, and many have gone away. Now, 4 months later, we talk about most things when they happen, and we are able to reach POJA on almost everything right then. Very few do we have to hold and do later. We are falling back in love. I asked for a status report last week, and she said she looks forward to me coming home, that her heart leaps when I walk into the room, that she is in love again. All DR Harley has done is what many others do (Steven Covey comes to mind with 7 Habits) He has discovered universal principals that always work, and written them down in a way we can understand and work with them. Of course, it takes talent to recognize them and present them in a useful way. I couldn't have done what he has done, but I can see it for what it is. What's the point?
(long )
She will talk to me now, we have had some very good talks. We have done the needs questionnaire , and the LB one. My plan is much better than in the beginning, and she is helping me all she can, and she has her own plan for meeting my needs. One of the key things was the first real talk we had where she would discuss her feelings too. After about 1 1/2 months, I asked her if she was ready to talk - really I wanted to have some idea if she would help me ( something you and Dream are waiting to hear from your wives.) I told her my plan and what I needed from her. Now remember, my major needs were not being met either, I didn't know how long this would take, but I estimated 1 to 2 years. What I needed from her was to give feedback, and not walk when I slipped up, but talk to me about her feelings. She agreed with reservations. She said she felt she was going out on a limb to open up to me, but she would try it and wanted the right to back out if it got to bad emotionally. ( She has since told me, she didn't think I could do it, and that it would be a waste of time. )
So we had the talk and she agreed to listen to me, and trouble shoot my progress. Once or twice a week, we would talk about our interaction. I began to understand the things about her that I used to get angry about and tell her why, in non judgmental, non threatening way. She found I could discuss things without getting angry and she began to open up more and more. The short version is this.1. I told her I was going to change, and what exactly would change.
2. I told her I needed her feedback in the form of conversation to make it work.
3. I gave her permission to walk away from it if it was too hard, or if she felt it wasn't working.
4. the response in just 4 1/2 months has been amazing. So if you two have not had the conversation with your wives yet, you should. It doesn't have to be a marriage building talk. You just need to let them know that you are attempting some life changing improvements in your life and need her feedback to make it work. You don't need to tell them you are trying to meet their needs (yet.) You can say you are learning how to interact with people in a more friendly, caring way ( after all, what we learn applies to everyone we meet in some ways) You can explain that you are learning how to communicate without anger and disrespect - and that they can be a big help judging your progress. Part of the talk with my W was telling her that I knew I was human, and would not be able to be perfect at it. I asked her to be willing to talk about my mistakes instead of withdrawing and giving up on me. At first, this was very hard for her. But she has explained that after she realized it was the real thing, that I was serious, she wanted very badly to help me, and was willing, even though she was still afraid of it not working. Onward, you could put it all in a letter if she won't talk. You don't have to say you are trying to save your marriage, you can just say you have realized many of your faults, and are working to eliminate them. If there are things you know she has big problems with (smoking, not spending time with loved ones, making school too important etc. ) you can list them and talk a little about each of them. You could appoligize again - and take the time to make it really good. You both have already have this talk in one form or another. What I am suggesting that is different is that you explain it so it seems she is helping you to overcome your faults ( hint, the ones she hates the most) and that it doesn't affect the marriage or her. It seems to be less threatening to them, and they don't have a reason to say no. It gets the same results as if they agreed to save marriage - they invest themselves in saving you, and it saves M too.
All the conversations you have builds LB$ deposits for both of you, it becomes enjoyable for both of you, it works into lots more. I always seem to go really long, but I hope I have given you a different angle that may help. SS

Still Seeking - Thank you for the perspective. I think you are right on target about the communication needs. As you noted several posts/weeks/days ago...the timing is all a blur, once I have gotten away from angry outbusts/feelings things have improved considerably. I do have conversations with my WW (still mostly me talking) but I have noticed that she is listening now. I think the conversation you describe is right on target, I just need to wait till the current crisis fades.**********************************As for a new update...WW has continued to lighten-up and it seems like I have again avoided burning the bridges. Other than my second/third appology yesterday I have not brought up the topic again and neither has she.We had the new neighbors over tonight... what was supposed to be a 1 hour visit turned into almost 4 hours. In general we had a good time so I think it was OK. After they left, WW asked me if I was going to bed. I asked "where should I go to bed?", she stated "I'm not done punishing you yet". I told her "it was OK and I would sleep on the couch or in the spare bedroom". We flirted some and were affectionate and I could tell she enjoyed this.In general it is all very confusing. At least as far as I am concerned things are better. I have let go of any expectations so the daily up and downs I take in stride. I have also stopped what was a pursuit of a wife that was no longer in a "relationship" with me. This was hard but the change was based on acknowledging what she perceieved wrong with our relationship versus my issues. Lastly, my Plan A has a strong component that is about me. I am doing things for my own good and they will make me a better person even if my WW fails to see this.

Well not the best Fathers day I have ever had.In reality it was proably the worst. We spent Saturday together and had a reasonable time but things are still on edge. I have heard a few times that I am on her s*** list. At least I was invited back into the bedroom on Saturday night. She did ask me if I had talked to anyone else other than the people I have told her about. Luckily I have not talked to anyone else and I can't think of any other reason for her to get mad at me (on the other hand, I'm sure she could find one!). As for Fathers day, I got a card from her and a card from my daughter that WW also bought. She got me a present (but she slipped away at the mall while we were out on Saturday to get it). So not much thought there, but she could have blown it off completely.She didn't show any real affection today and she went out shopping??. I checked her cell phone and she called OM and he called her while she was out. The time period she was out was rather long so I have my suspicions. You would have thought that she could not call him on fathers day at the very least. I'm not really mad, but just frustrated that I have to keep putting up with this. I will continue on with my Plan A, what else is there to do...My Father came over for dinner and that went well. At least it should show her that he has no bad feelings and is not uncomfortable being around.So ends another week of the roller-coaster (some up, some down, and at the end no idea if the ride will ever end and if it does what where it will stop).Dreamland - How did WW's birthday and Father's Day go?????

Hey Onwardandup. I am sorry that you did not have a good father's day.I had quite a long post typed up late saturday night on your thread, but before I could post it my whole computer locked up. I lost everything. Frustrated, I went to sleep.I CAN NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOUR WW SAID TO YOU!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] What does she think she is punishing you for. For cheating on her, for lying, for having PA/EA with someone else, for treating her like crap, for kicking her out of your room, for being extremely cruel and emotionally abusive, OH WAIT, that was her that did that!!! Everything you did was honest, loving, caring, and trying to keep the marriage together. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] When will these WW's learn. I am sorry I am angry about how she treated you, but that really would make me mad. You are strong for not showing or getting angry here.When you say you have stopped pursuing your wife, what do you mean? The mind set I am trying to maintain is that I no longer have a wife. I used to have just a roomate, then I had a good friend, now I think this weekend might have knocked me into the best friend status (I hope). I am slowly learning how to meet her emotional needs. I can see how she does not allow me to meet some of these needs. I think her greatest need is attention in the form of conversation and second is conversation. I am going to start a thread on emotional needs.How is your daughter doing by the way? She will be two in a few months? She talk alot? About father's day. Long before father's day, I prepared myself for the fact that my WW would not spend too much effort trying to make this real special. I also determined that Father's day to me was almost nothing about my wife, but all about my children. So, I spent most of the day just having fun with my kids. It was a very special day for me, best father's day of my life. My wife even bought me a very thoughtfull gift (alarm clock that also was a weather forcaster with barometric preasure, indoor and outdoor humidity and temp-real cool [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] ). Then I went to my dads and we had some hamburgers.You said your wife is not being affection with you. My wife is not either. She is guarding her self from me. I wish she would open up, it has been a long time since she was affectionate.Keep up your good work. Have you solidified a time frame for Plan A yet. I think she is not ready for a Plan B, but I believe you are stong enough and in a right frame of mind for a Plan B. She probably needs to see a little more good in you in Plan A. I especially am concerned about her punishing comment. Is this all about you telling family?

So I removed myself from the bedroom last night. Actually, this was by design since I wanted to watch the USA soccer match at 2:30 am and I knew she would object to the alarm going off in the middle of the night. At least this time they won and it was a great game. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] By pursuit, I mean looking to get her to talk or be affectionate, want SF, etc. I am just trying to be there when she needs or wants me and put all of my needs and wants on hold. I'm not very good at this but it takes some of the pressure off. I guess I a also looking at it from a friend point of view. The bottom line is that by not looking or asking for anything the atmosphere is less stressfull for her.My daughter is 19 months old today. She is not a big talker yet, but she understands everything that is said. I don't think she has been impacted too much by the atmosphere at home since we don't fight and she gets lots of love. WW and her are going to start swim classes tonight and maybe WW can find some normal people (women) to be friendly with.The affection thing is so strange. At one point she seems to warm-up and then it goes away. I think she has built a wall to keep herself away from me when it starts to come down she builds it back up. This morning we were intimate and she cried. I think this is becasue she is slowly realizing that her assumption that I did not want to be with her is wrong.As for Plan A and Plan B, I don't have a time line established. If there were no signs of progress I may be thinking about Plan B, but the overall trend is still in the right direction (but slow if any movement). Her anger is related to me talking to my family, but it is not about the A. She is somewhat justified about this, but it is ironic considering what she is doing. My family has no concern or interest in the other information but it is important to her. I think the way I reacted to her comments and anger were right on target. In some respect you can't get too hung-up on words and only focus on actions (yes she did kick me out of the room but only for a few days). If I beleived all the hurtfull things she has said I would be long gone. In most cases they just seem to be angry outbursts said without much thinking. Only time will tell what is real and what is not.

Good idea about the stop pursuit thing. I think I have been pursuing her too much and trying too hard. I will keep to my routine of calling her twice a day since conversation is so high on her list. If she wants to talk, I will talk. If not, I will go about my own business.My oldest is not affected by all of this. We are very cordual with each other and we really never argue or raise our voices. WW is a great mom. She gives them lots of attention.A wall is a good analogy. My wife builds these too. These walls are too high to scale and two thick to knock down. Only time she is affectionate with me is at night when she is almost asleep she may cuddle with me, but this is rare.I am glad to here that her anger is focused on you talking to your family. Still, it is amazing she could be angry considering her actions. I know if I ever told my family, it would make things very tough for her. She loves my family and she would be very embarrassed. She will run from anyone that sees her vulnerability.I am glad to see that you are not getting hung up on the mean words. I appreciate your posts on my thread to my wife. Unfortunately, I think I got caried away with this and the whole thing blew up in my face. She read my two responses and for the first response she said YUK!! YUK!!! YUK!! (no kidin'). The second response she said I am too much of a preacher. She said that she felt icky by my first response because I sounded like I was trying too hard. Well I will not try again that is for sure. I am tired of being beat down when I try to make our marriage work. She told me she has no desire to meet my EN's and hence could care less. She has no desire to commit to the marriage (said this again on Sunday-great way to top off the weekend). She has no desire to make our marriage work. From now on, I am no longer trying. I am only going to be as real and sincere as I possibly can and not try to win her over. I believe this is not affective and in her words "makes me look like a begging puppy dog." [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I can't post for myself anymore here because it seems to be just a LB. I made the mistake of telling her about this forum because I thought it would help if she sees how I am feeling. It only makes me look week and pathetic. I probably will continue to lurk around and keep up with everyone's story. I will occassionally pop in and post here and there. I do not think I should give advice when it seems like nothing I do at home is right. I will keep in touch with your threads, but do not be offended if I post alot less frequently. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for all your support. I have apprciated your input and your philosophy. It is refreshing to see someone out there not trying to manipulate but just trying to love.

Dreamland - I am not surprised by your WW's reaction. As I have been told my WW is not ready for a relationship with me or to have deep conversations (yes, I thought we were in a relationship). I think your WW is also at this point. When you described a friendship you were right on track. I think you have made progress by being a friend but we can't take a friendship and suddenly make it into more than that. If you think about the A it first developed as a friendship and then progressed into more. Your answers to her post were well thought out but not what she wanted to hear. Take the information and use it...do not smother her, talk to her about how you will use the information, or talk about your needs. In time the oportunity may come to discuss these things but let her get there first.I don't think all of your posting is a LB. If it was she would not be reading or posting. Yes you need to consider what she reads into it, but once again look at her actions. If it was all bad and makes you look weak she would not be reading (this is the action). I think you should continue to try and win her over but do it in actions not words. She is scared by words so just show her that you are there for her, trying to meet her needs, and being a friend.I also don't think your advice is off target. Every situation is diferent and we can all learn from what others have faced. Just following other peoples stories hepls to make sense of everything.As for affection I get the occasional snuggle in the morning or at night. Last night my WW told me to get away from her becasue I was too warm. I LBed this and now I am starting to calm down. I don't know if I was just too warm or if she did not want me to touch her? This is a perfect case where I should not have said anything becasue I did not know what was realy in her head.As for the walls, we can not bring them down. In fact our actions can only serve to reinforce them. Our WWs will have to be the ones to take down the barriers. I think you are doing a good job of providing an atmosphere where this can happen.Oh well, tonight is marriage counseling session number three. Lets hope the counsleor takes the attack to my WW. I think he will so I am planning on just being calm and quiet.

Onwardandup,Thanks. I have quite the mood swings nowadays.Had another epiphany so I posted it. See what you think.

Hey Onwardandup,Thanks for the backup on the other post.How did the marriage counseling go last night? Did he got at your WW?

Marriage counseling was interesting. It started with her expressing her anger am me disclosing things and continued to get ugly. I didn't wait for the counselor to get started and just went off. I expressed my feelings about how I could not trust anything WW says and how she is not being honest with me. She stated that she was only trying to develope independence. I then said having your cell phone bills delivered to work so you could hide you phone activity is not about independence. I also said I am sick of getting bashed and talking about what I have done to the marriage when the subject of what she has and is doing is off-limits.In some respects we had an ugly session but you could say we were in conflict as opposed to withdrawl. She kept saying that she is trying, but I said that without talking to me how can I know this.We didn't talk on the way home or in bed. This morining she wanted to talk and it was more of the same. She stated that I am being hurtfull (hard to understand this one). She again said that the current situation is not important. I told her that it is to me. She stated that upon reflection she sees her biggest need as affection and I am not giving it. I stated that I have been trying but she won't let me near her. As an example I stated that she sits in the living room in a way so that I can not get near her. If I ask her to sit with me she says she is comfortable where she is. I also said I would like her to be the one to snuggle up to me in bed versus it always being me to initiate any contact. The conversation was kind of circular but she again reaffirmed that she does not want a divorce and want to work things out. Unfortunately, she then said she feels like everything has to be on my terms. I said this is not the case but we have to recognize where each of us is coming from and find middle ground.So where are we...IMHO we are still in the same place as before, but now there is some opening of communication. Will this continue and make a difference, I don't know. She called today and asked me to do the ironing (I'm actually better at it than her). I guess now that my daughter is taking her nap that is what I have do (what a fun afternoon).

Hi Onward, If you can communicate and walk away without hate, you are making progress. Bring this to her attention - tell her " Hey, we differ in our opinions, but we didn't kill each other, we were expressing our opinions and we listened to each others point of veiw. That's progress."
You can say it better, this is just to illustrate. It is progress, but it's also frustrating. When you talk, try to find someting at the end to agree on. Even if it is what day to date. End it with something you both can live with. You know enough now that you ought to be able to script the conversations you have and guide them for your own use. Use what you know. Don't worry about the cell bills, and secrets. Someday she will get it. Just build love. Any way you can. When there is finally enough love built up, the rest will solve itself. When she asked about the ironing, did you say " Hon, I really don't enjoy the ironing, but for you, I'll do it gladly." Use the chances you are given. BTW, I feel that you are doing well, no one is perfect, just giving you something to think about. SS

Next time she says you are being hurtful, ask her to provide specifics.I think you are making some good baby steps. She is wanting to talk to you and now she is talking about her feelings and telling you what you need to do to fill her needs. I think this is a real chance to get in her walls and shine. I am sure conversation is high up on her list of EN's so take every chance you can to sit and talk. Talk about anything and everything. Try to get her to stop giving you generalistic comments and judgements. Ask her to be specific about how you can meet her need for affection not just how she is not letting you meet that need. Maybe you are not understanding exactly how she wants you to be affectionate. It is a good chance your ideas of affection are much different then hers. As others say here, concentrate on the baby steps. Do not look for the big step because it may not come. If you look back through your posts here, you will see what large positive changes have occurred through baby steps over the past few months. Stay positive and keep up the good Plan A.

Onwardandup:Unfortunately I have found where my H is posting...to your site. I wanted to find out more about your "story" and bumped into him. Sorry Dreamland! I am so very sorry to hear that you and Mrs. Onwardandup have found yourselves in this very gloomy, foggy world of an A. I can relate to your story from your wife's perspective. I am smack dab in the middle of an affair (EA/PA) with my boss and can relate to ALL that your W is doing.
My comments to you regarding your wife's words and actions are these:

1. Understand that your wife has fallen in love with another man. Given the circumstances and nature of the situation, she is in a lot of pain and is very confused. The only person with whom she can talk about this with is you, and from the read of your threads, you are not creating an environment free from judgement and blame which allows her to do so. When she cries, she wants to open up to you but does not "trust" you with the information. 2. Guilt and Anger are inversely related. The greater your W's anger, the less her guilt; the more venom she directs at you,the less she directs at herself. This is why (in her eyes) YOU are to blame for all of this.3. She is justifying her A and poor actions by your faults. The more you blame, judge or make her feel badly, the more justified she is with the A and OM. I tried many times to sabatoge my relationship with my H so that I could justify what I was doing with OM. I wanted him to hate me (which I am convinced is impossible for him to do) so that I could blame him (which I do not do! My stupidity...nothing he did). 4. Your W's A is out in the open. When first revealed, it was a shock to all - your W, OM and you. Time has passed and OM and W have had time to figure out how to make A "work" in current environment. Facts: Your W is smart. W does not want to loose her job. She knows, logically, that divorcing you would be bad for her and her daughter. BUT, she is in love with OM. You may want to think about the prospect of her playing both sides of the fence (EA and PA) so that she is able to keep her family AND her job in tact. 5. Why the focus on so much SF? Are you meeting her EN or yours? Does she really have a high Sex Drive or are you projecting this / reading between the lines? Was she reallly crying after sex because of the hurt she created, OR did she cry because she was only going the motions of fulfilling you? I have cried on my H's shoulders for the pain that I have caused all of us. I have cried in bed after sex because it was NOT something I really wanted to do....I was sexually committed to OM and not H. (I can't have sex both ways but some women can.)I know too well the emotional roller coaster ride. On an intellectual level, I, as can your W, tell you all the reasons why my Marriage should be saved and why the OM should be kicked to the curb. Unfortuately, strong emotions get in the way and mess your mind all up. Your W probably figures out the logical solutions to this mess when she is with you (this is why she talks of the future) but changes her tune when she sees his greatness at the office or when he calls and romances her (why she comes home cold and distant).Love your wife..dont blame her or judge her or demand of her. She needs your support to get through this. She has done the unthinkable to you and to HERSELF. I hope this is well received. What tangled webs we weave.Mrs. Dreamland

Mrs. Dreamland - Thank you for you comments. Some people on this site may attack you for the positions you state and the things that are happening in your marriage, I will not. I will respond to your insights and you can comment on what I have had to say. I will also pose you some questions and make some comments and you can choose if you want to reply, but consider my comments to both of you.Mr. & Mrs Dreamland - I consider Dreamland to be a someone who I share some of the same philosophies with and appreciate his support. I think it only fair to ask both of if you are comfortable in responding to me. I do not want to get in the way of any conversations you may have and you both should be comfortable in doing this. If you only want to direct your comments to my situation that is also fine.Mrs. Dreamland (about your comments) - 1. I don't make a distinction between my WW beign in love with the OM or whatever form the relationship has taken. From my point of view the only salient point is that the relationship has come between us and as long as it exists we will not have the marriage that either of us wants.I realize that my actions have prevented her from feeling safe with me. I have been trying to get better in this regard and will continue to try. We have major trust issues on both sides since the A is not the only thing that she has kept secret between us. In some sense she has to build trust with me because her actions and words do not match. Short of not bringing any subject up in a conversation I do not know how to create a safe environment. When she cries she seems to shut down all conversations and I can't get her to say anything. Any thoughts would be appreciated.2. I agree with your assessment. Her anger seems to be a way to stop herself from introspection.3. Same as #2.4. Her career is one that allows her to get another job easily. As recent as January she was actively looking for another job. While there are many positive aspects of her job the one thing that makes her remain is the OM. She may not consciously realize this but I think she realizes it at some level. She may make the decision to try and prolong both realtionships but that is a scenario I can not accept. I deserve to be in a whole relationship and I will not maintain something less for her comfort or for my daughter. I am not ready for this yet but will be at some point.5. She has stated explicitly that she was unhappy with our sex life. She felt that we did not have SF enough and according to her I was not doing it the way she wanted. My sexual issues were related to how I felt about myself and lack of experience. She cried once when after SF because what we did and how it felt was what she always wanted and she said it made it feel like she was making a bad decision. When she cried this week she said it was because I was more expressive (talking about how I felt during sex) and that I said her name. I told her that I was always thinking these things during sex, but my insecurity had kept me from expressing it.I do have a strong sex drive and this is something I have resolved along with my insecurity in individual counseling. Yes she may not be ready to be intimate with me and I am mostly the one initiating sex now.IMHO affection is her biggest need (she includes admiration and me saying she looks good in this category). I guess it is hard to figure out how I can tell her how I feel about the way she looks without it seeming insincere (her thoughts abotu this are related to lackluster sex life in the past and her feeling I was rejecting her). It is also hard to be affectionate as she tells me I need to when she doesn't initiate anything. The best way I have found to do these things is through recreational companionship and not conversation.I will address my questions to you Mrs. Dreamland in another post.

Mrs Dreamland - I'll start with some simple questions:1. How do you define love? Is love what is realy going on in an A? If it is then it must be fleeting, something that can be built and taken away. I would suggest that there is more to love than the emotional high you can get from being with someone. The love Dreamland has for you and the love I have for my wife is still there despite all of the hurt. We can recieve and deliver the emotional high if given the chance but the strenght of our love goes beyond this.2. What do YOU plan to do? I read what you suggested that my WW might do and I wondered what you plan to do or are doing. If you don't have a plan then the time has come for you to start figuring out what to do with your life.3. What things would make a difference to you? I realize you are different from my WW but it would be helpfull to know what could be done to help her get off the fence. I have phrased this question to you because I think knowing what would make a diference for you could help me figure out what would make a difference for my WW.I guess that is enough for now. I can tell from your post that you feel the same confusion all of us do about the "tangled webs" we get ourselves into. I also beleive you know the different actions you can take, so I will not tell you what to do (you know what I would say anyway).

Onwardandup:Whew! I do not want to talk about my own messy A in this forum but will dig deep (this is painful) to answer your questions. First I want to respond to your first message.1. You made a point of saying that your W’s A is getting in the way of your relationship with your W. This is incorrect. Your W’s A is a symptom of your deteriorating relationship with your W. There are other BIGGER things that got in the way of your M before the A. Additionally, from the way this point read, your wife does not seem to be trustworthy...which is an entirely different problem altogether. But you said that when she cries, she shuts down communication. You asked for suggestions. When she cries, make sure you are giving her all of your attention. If you were reading, stop. If TV (yes, even soccer) is on, turn it off. Turn to her and hold her and instead of saying, "What's wrong?", "How can I help?", "What happened?" etc., try this: "I know this is extremely painful for you. If I were you, I would feel so very sad. I don't know how you manage to be so successful at work and here at home with all that is going on in your life. You have got a huge burden on your shoulders and I want you to know that I will be here for you regardless. I want to help you so that you will feel good again. I want you to shine like you did when we were first married. I dont like seeing you hurt like this. I love you with all of my heart." Try empathizing with her to get her to open up. See if this works in your favor?!?You also mentioned that Affection (this does not mean sex) and Admiration are her top emotional needs. Men always think that Affection is foreplay...it is not. Women want Affection and want sex when they want sex. The two are different. [BTW, for a woman, good relationship = good sex, bad relationship = bad sex]. Some ideas for A&A are:
1. Call her during the day. Tell her you were thinking of her and wanted to say Hi and you love her.
2. Tell her she is pretty, attractive and make romantic remarks.
3. Be sympathetic to her.
4. Accept who she is.
5. Draw a bath for her when she comes home from work, light a candle and play soft music.
6. Write love notes to her and send her a homemade lovecard to the office.
7. Talk to her during lovemaking and afterwards. Express your desires openly, share yourself more fully with her; caress and hold her after lovemaking. Also, make lovemaking a new experience every time.
8. Be interested in her during the morning and at night - Turn off the TV and don't read.
9. Help with dinner dishes and clean the kitchen (assuming she cooked).
10. Be silly with her and say sweet little nothings.
11. Bring her flowers occasionally (I think roses are overrated. Bright Gerber Daisies are the Best!)
12. Hold her hand and kiss her on the cheek especially at unromantic times.
13. Express appreciation for the things she does (say the meal was good, appreciate the tidy home, thank her for what she does do).
14. Say nice things about her in front of others.
15. Spend quiet time with her, just sharing life.
Your W will know you are sincere about showing Affection and Admiration when you do / give these things without expecting anything in return. If you are consistent and free with this, she will "get it".Now on to answering your questions (gag!):
1. I agree that my H loves me unconditionally, as you love your W. I know that my love for OM is insecure and based on how he makes me feel. However, the "fantasy" with the OM includes true and unconditional love in the equation. I hope that the fantasy is real.
2. My Plan?!?!?! OM comes with a very angry and vindictive wife, 4 kids, no proven protection for me, no real kind consideration for me AND YET I MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT ALL. Why? I lost my head, my standards, and my morals when I gave my heart to him. Doesn't make much sense does it? Slowly, I think I am seeing OM for what he truly is. A man married to his job and primarily concerned about his own well-being and happiness. Since I am the ultimate people pleaser, I aid in making sure he is happy at my expense. Finding resolution to all of this and defining a plan would be much easier if my heart was not so tormented.
3. What would make a difference to your W? Great question! I do not know what state your W is in or where their A is at. But I do know that for her to have entered an A, she must have been very taken with OM. He has romanced her. Has been very passionate with her. Made her feel wonderful again. She probably feels the best (prettiest, most spirited, most special, the greatest) when she is with him. This may not all be reality, but for her, it is. She knows what life has been like with you...maybe stale, no fun, stressed, not much attention. Although she knows logically she needs to remain in her marriage, she compares the two of you and sees that if she chooses you, she will be giving up all of these wonderful things that (she thinks) only he can give her. So, IMHO, that is what you can give her....don't make her choose between what you were and what he is. Allow her to choose between what you are and what he is. Maybe too he is starting to sour a bit. He has a lot of strikes against him...several As, D, potential step kids, XW, 15 years older.I wish you success, and I wish your W a quick exit from the fog. I am afraid this will be difficult if she is seeing him everyday. This is so very difficult. Mrs. Dreamland

Onwardandup,Thanks for your concern and your opinions. I do not think my WW said anything that I did not already know.I have quite a bit of work ahead of me. I have been waiting for a good sign and for the strength to kick up this Plan A a notch. I see from my conversations with my wife and these posts a clear cry for help. Through her third person post with you, she has clearly described her feelings and laid out like a map what I should do.I am declaring war on the OM. He had better look out because I am charging through. I have got to get my thoughts together and that may take a few days. This is going to be fun. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img][ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]

oops. Hit edit instead of post.

Today may have been the best day so far.WW had her individual counseling session today (I did not ask about what went on...I have gotten the message not to ask about it). She was much more affectionate today and asked me if I was mad at her...she was not sure of my affection. I said no, I'm just not used to this from you. We went out together and bought things for new flower beds in the yard. Later she really initiated SF. She just approached me and said she wanted to be with me (I can't remember the last time she did this). We then worked outside in the yard and she wanted us to work on the same thing together. It was nice that she didn't resort to the "I want to do it myself routine".Her whole tone was different today. She seemed to be less uptight and stressed. She talked favorably about my family. She followed me wherever I went. For the first time in a long time I felt like we were working together.Perhaps the biggest thing was her work schedule. She had hidden this from me for months so that I could not tell when she was working with OM. Today she brought home the schedule for next month and put it on the bulletin board where it had been in the past. I didn't say anything because it would be hard to acknowledge without pointing out the secrecy over the last month (perhaps a LB). If nothing else I have told her in the past how I felt about this and I take it as a good sign that she took the initiative.I still refuse to get my hopes up, but the trend continues in the right direction.For everyone that has given me support and advice over the last few months THANK YOU. I don’t think I could have gotten myself over the hurdle let alone implement a decent Plan A without all the wonderful people at marriage builders. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Bravo O&W! This is GREAT to hear. It sounds as if she will be VERY receptive to you fulfilling her EN's (you were concerned that your efforts would go unnoticed). I am so glad that she is concentrating on your EN's as well (i gathered from your post). I hope this is the turning of a new leaf.Great news...and best wishes.Mrs. Dreamland

Mrs. Dreamland - Thank you for your support. I am happy inside that there is some progress, but I will not get myself to excited (I don't want to fall too hard yet).Yes she does recognize my efforts, but the thing that hangs over me is the continued EA contact. For the most part I never mention it (except in counsleing last week). I guess she will decide to end it and talk to me about it in her own time. The other alternative is that the contact (non-work related) will continue for till I or the marriage counselor makes a point about it. As far as I am concerned I am not going to be the one to bring it up in the near future. It feels like I am putting my head in the sand, but I think she is the one who needs to work it our without pressure from me.One last thing, remember there are plenty of people here that are willing to listen to you and offer insight when if you need it (yes some might flame you, but they are just angry). On the other hand feel free to just lurk and add your thoughts when you feel like it.

Hi Onward, When I first started reading your threads, It looked like she wanted some excuse to come back to you. You gave it to her. She is coming back. From what I have seen, A's often have a life of their own. But it is usually a short life. Then it dies. It would be nice if she would quit and get anothe job without contact. Someday she will probably think of this herself. Or someday she may take suggestions. She isn't there yet. Just keep building Love in her LB$. I would probably thank her for posting the work scedule. Thank her whenever she gives you some hope for recovery. Tell her how much it enables you to continue to have a good attitude. She needs to know (IMHO) However, you know her best, we just make suggestions. Remember that you ( sorry to say this again) will still have down days. But you will come back up. YOU WILL COME BACK UP. You are right to keep your expections low, always good to get more than you expect. Always hutrs to get less. I'm kind of proud of you. But then, you are getting high grades in school so I should expect you would do well. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Keep it up. SS[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Onwardandup,This is real good news, but please still guard your feelings. Do not expect this to be the end of it all. Keep your strength. You know how these things go up and down. Proceed with cautious optimism.

Well counseling session #4 and still more little progress. We talked more openly during the session and it wasn't at all like last week. WW related that her needs for affection and admiration were still not being met. I was happy that she relayed this and I talked about how I was trying but that at times she would not let me meet these needs. I talked about how it would be better if she could let me know when I'm not doing enough or what is working.The counselor tried to get us to state if we were feeling better about the relationship and WW said yes and no. She stated that she is still having a problem relating to me and that it is difficult to accept me trying to meet her needs.I brough up the fact that her posting the schedule was important to me and I appreciated it. She kind of blew it off and said it was not a big thing. After a little prodding by the counselor she said that in fact she was hiding it on purpose and that this was to aimed at making me angry. This is the first time she has recognized any of her actions in creating the current situation. I'm happy she is continuing to open up a little at a time.So as everyone has said, it will probably be a lot of little baby steps for a while. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

When the time came that my W and I could open up and talk - and not hold feelings back, and not worry if the other would blow up - This is when I knew we would be OK. We just both learned not to LB when we talked, it made so much difference. Even if we don't agree, we can work on it without the other getting hurt. It looks like your improvement continues. My wife has said many times that I don't need to show her affection so often, and in the ways I do.( I use a lot of MRs Dreamlands stuff) But I know she likes it, I keep doing it, and she keeps responding anyway. All the while saying " you don't need to do that." It would be nice if she would say," thank you, you are so sweet to do that." But she really doesn't. However, since I can step back now, and see that it is working, I will keep doing it. Do whatever you can get away with on the sly. It will work anyway. When I know she is hurting or upset about something, I offer her a hug, with no strings attatached. I tell her she is smart, and hardworking ( insert nice things about your wife here) and she will be OK. I say, " just hold on to me and I will take care of you." She likes that, even though we are a team, and are pretty equal, she likes to hear it. She and I like different styles of music. I put hers on whenever she is around, she knows I do it on purpose. She knows it is because I care for her, love her. She is responding to all these things. Examine the time you spend together - you can find ways to get to her and meet her needs. Turn off your favorite TV show and pay attention to her, or turn the channle to her show. She may be hopeing you will do stuff, even though she fights it. Be careful but do it anyway. You are really looking good, and you give good advice too. Keep it up. SS[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Onwardandup,I am glad to here you are making progress with her sharing her feelings with you. My WW shares everything with me, and it really hurts. I know she does not mean to hurt me, but her words are piercing.Is the A still going on? Is she willing to discuss this with you? I hope what you said in my post is correct. I hope she is in a fog and what she says has to be taken with a grain of salt.Keep up the good work. I am happy to see that you are doing well now. I have not been feeling good for the last two or three weeks. Felt much better in the past. I was only able to eat a couple of pieces of pizza all day yesterday. I have no desire to eat and the funny thing is, I am not even hungry. Fortunately for me, I am starving today (even after lunch). Time to get a coke.I will talk to you later. I am dying to tell someone about the recent events, but it is just to soon to say.

Dreamland - Yes, you have to take things with a grain of salt. A few weeks ago my WW told my sister that if I didn't leave school our marriage is over. Now she is saying that the financial support is lower on the EN list than affection and admiration. I still don't know if this is the correct order but I hope it is. It also shows that maybe she is becoming more willing to let me try to meet the more important needs. She also has given me the "I'll never be close to you again" line but hey what can I do but keep with the plan. Even last night she said she not interested in what I am doing in my life, but at the same time she now is encouraging me to complete the class that is left over from the last semester.As for her A, we still have not talked about it. She did make it a point to suggest it was not going on when he came to our daughters birthday party last Nov. (of course she may not recognize an EA as an A, but I believe it realy didn't cross the line untill early this year). I know that since I am around all the time this summer that is little or no opportunity for much PA (unless they do it at work when everyone else is around). She still talks to him at work most days (that is when they are both there). She calls him occasionally but not anywhere near what it was before. He seems to call her more than she calls him and he leaves frequent voice mail messages. It is interesting that she doesn't check her phone for messages too often, so they may sit for a couple of days.In all I would say that EA is still going on but it is not that strong and may be dying. I also realize that one big or small LB by me could put the A back on the front burner. So on with my Plan A and the good advice of STILL SEEKING.
BTW...Everyone wants to know what is going on with you and Mrs. Dreamland, but we can wait. Let the situation play out and you can choose to share later if it makes sense. You are both in my thoughts...I'm hoping for the best.

Onwardandup,The biggest problem about the A is not the PA, but the EA. More than likely, if she ever had a PA with the OM, she is committed mind, body, and soul until it is all over and there is no contact. My WW can not have PA with two people. She cries afterward and will not even really kiss me. So, SF is on hold for a long long time, I think.Do not underestimated the power of the feelings. I guess that is all I have learned through all of this. I need to shake my current funk, but I think this all has to do with what is currently going on. I am only hoping that what I am seeing and what is happening is real, and is going to stick. I am a nervous wreck, that is why I think I was not eating. I am on the edge of my chair hoping and waiting patiently like a spectator at a football game in a close 4th quarter. Only time will tell.

Dreamland - You are right about the EA being the bigger problem than any PA. At least in my case I have not figured out my WW's stance on having PA in more than one place at a time. I can cretainly relate to the kissing thing. I think for my WW a kiss is a bigger part of attachment. She does kiss me from time to time, but there is no spark and it is certainly not a passionate kiss...kind of like friends or family (BTW - this realy sucks because there is nothting better than a passionate kiss).It is all very confusing to me, so in some respects I have stopped trying to analyZe everything too much. One thing I did not mention is that the marriage counselor suggested that next week he wanted to get into some of the bigger issues we have left alone. I'm not sure I am ready for him to fail at this like I have.

Hello, O.

Who's it going to be - Brazil or Germany?

I know how you feel about not being prepared to address the A issue in your next counseling session. I wasn't prepared to deal with it when my H and I started counselling, and my H wasn't telling the truth about it anyway. Not surprisingly, counseling didn't work for us. The A needs to be addressed and it needs to end, otherwise, counseling isn't going to help.

I agree that affection and admiration are important, but they're best when given genuinely, and when they're deserved. Take care - H.

HJL -

I thought you left my ramblings (too boring to read, or just too much as you prepare to move on).

Anyways, I was glad to see Germany get rid of S. Korea in the World Cup. As for the finals I have to root for Brazil all the way.

Its not that I don't want to address the A, I just don't want it to be brought up and have WW try to sweep it under the rug. So while I know it has to be addressed, I'm not sure if the time is right yet. I think the counseling may provide an avenue where things can be worked out but if the A is swept under the rug it certainly is a waste of time. So I do think the counseling is valuable right now becasue it has kept a dialog open and we'll have to see what happens.

AS for affection and admiration you are right about when they are good. On the other hand it serves me no purpose to withdraw from giving these things to my WW. It is how I feel towards her, so it is OK with me.

BTW - she got a dress for the wedding at the end of July. At least she is planning on going.

Hey there O',

I hope you are O.K. I am not so good. So much so fast. Crying on myself.

You are right about the affection and needs part. I would say the division factor right now for you is way up there. It is good to do the things you would like to do from the heart, but it hurts sooo much. It is much more painful and much more difficult then simply divorcing your feelings and yourself from the situation. It seems like you are a much stronger person than I. I have a real hard time with all of this.

My WW's A is now professed to be over. It suddenly imploded/exploded and I am left with the remains, a sour putrid mess ignited by their own selfishness. (Details in other post) That is the root of all the evil that lurks in these A's. A complete self-absorbed mess with our spouses concerned only about themselves. I have such a bad taste in my mouth right now, mainly rotten eggs and old fish.

I still deeply love her, but it is so painful to see her hurting. She tried to leave last night, but I told her to wait till morning and think about it, (after we purchased a $1,200 Kirby vacuum cleaner this morning :eek) she left. She said she will be gone for the night. I asked her if she was going to see OM. She responded with an emphatic "NO"! "The OM and I are over," she said. She just left a few minutes ago and will be gone till tomorrow. I hope not much longer than that. I asked her but could not get a definite answer. She said she only brought clothes for one day. I am woried about her. I told her it was not good to be alone now. She promised to call me to tell me where she is staying and tell me how she is doing.

This is real tough now. She has no desire to try and fix us. I hope this all turns around.

Sorry for crying on your thread.

Dream, I wish I had great words of advice for you but nothing comes right now. Just this,

Don't give up, and don't do anything.

Before you do or say anything other than the standard plan A, come and check it with Onward.

OK? Please?

Granted we don't know what will happen really, but you will feel much better in a few weeks. She's still on the roller coaster and that won't change for a while. Do whatever it is you do to keep going, and keep going.
OK?
SS

OK, so I changed the title of the thread (it now reflects where I am at).

The weekend was pretty good. Some mutal meeting of EN's (you know what that means <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

I still can't read what is in WW's mind. Every week our marriage counsleor gives us "homework" and for the most part WW blows it off. Tommorow is the next session and she has not made any attempt yet, I don't expect it either. I guess I get a little frustrated with this and I will see what the counselor does with this. I think he will address it, if not I guess I will.

WW came home from work today in a less than nice mood. I try not to get hung-up on this but she was working with OM today. I left and went to swim at my fathers house to get some space insure there were no LBs. Later we watched her favorite show together but nothing more. I did make it a point to let her know I counsciously had made an effort to change one of my behaviors over the weekend that bothered her. She said she had noticed, but no other acknowledgement.

I guess tonight I am just frustrated that what she calls "working on the marriage" is not meeting my expectations. In reality I don't think she has really made the decision to work on things. If she had what I saw on the first post in this thread "she plans to keep OM as a friend" would still not be a major issue for me.

I almost forgot to add this. WW started reading "The Divorce Remedy" last night. I saw that she was just getting to the 'walkaway wife syndrone' tonight (I hope she enjoys the reading). She said she did enjoy SAA, but the concepts about ending the A and 'no-contact' obviously did not sink in too deep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ July 01, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: onwardandup ]

Onwardandup,

One thing I needed to hold on through all of this is truths. Lets see if these truths are correct:

1)Your wife is still engaged in an least an EA.
2)Marital recovery is impossible if the EA is continuing.
3)If the EA is continuing, she is stringing you along until the EA turns into M regardless of what she may tell you.
4)Do not look for signs of recovery in her or the way she treats you. These will not occur until she is done with OM.
5)It may be a good sign that she is reading these books. However, my WW read these books only to feel less guilty about her A. She wanted vindication. As soon as she discovered that she could not get it from the books, she stopped reading them. Understand that she may only be reading these books for that reason.

How is your conversation going with WW? Are you able to get more information from her without LB'ing? Have you asked her recently about the A? I would try to do this once every two weeks or so just to keep tabs on everything and to let her know you are concerned about this.

Do not let MC become a free venting source for you. Even in MC this will be LB'ing.

I am glad to see that she is making progress. I hope that she can decide on what she wants to do before you lose all of your love bank for her. Monitor this closely. Even if you still unconditionally love her, you may all of sudden one day look at your WW and think to yourself, "this is not worth it. Why am I trying."

Dreamland -

I'll try to answer your questions....

"1)Your wife is still engaged in an least an EA."

I believe this to be the case, but I have no way of knowing. She does not see him outside of work but contact continues at work and via cell phone. She has still resisted talking about it and at this point I don't even know how to bring it up.

"2)Marital recovery is impossible if the EA is continuing."

It certainly is for me, and from everything I have seen and read it takes two for recovery.

"3)If the EA is continuing, she is stringing you along until the EA turns into M regardless of what she may tell you."

I guess I don't know about this one. Only she knows what she has in mind. She may foolishly think she can keep him as a friend (unacceptable to me).

"4)Do not look for signs of recovery in her or the way she treats you. These will not occur until she is done with OM."

This makes sense to me. Before I can worry about or even consider recovery the A needs to be addressed. I don't think we are in any form of recovery right now. I think she is still just playing the situation out in her own way (whatever that may be). As a matter of fact I don't know how you can be in recovery untill two people are working on the marriage.

"5)It may be a good sign that she is reading these books. However, my WW read these books only to feel less guilty about her A. She wanted vindication. As soon as she discovered that she could not get it from the books, she stopped reading them. Understand that she may only be reading these books for that reason."

I don't think she is looking for vindication. I'm not really sure what she is looking for. I guess the positive thing I take from it is that at least we can talk some of the same language.

"How is your conversation going with WW? Are you able to get more information from her without LB'ing? Have you asked her recently about the A? I would try to do this once every two weeks or so just to keep tabs on everything and to let her know you are concerned about this."

Conversation is difficult. We don't ever talk about our R and I have not broached the subject of the A for two weeks. Our last conversation, after the bad counseling seesion, I tried to explain that the A was still bothering me and "inappropriate" (yes this was a LB). She cut the converrsation off and stated that she felt she was working on the marriage.

"Do not let MC become a free venting source for you. Even in MC this will be LB'ing."

I don't necessarily look at it a free venting opportunity. It is just the only time when I can initiate any kind of talk about our R (good or bad). I think tonight I should approach it as "what is your plan to getting us to recovery?". In reality since she says she is working on us, but there is limited action I just don't see it. I want to know why this gap exisits. I'm just at a real loss in how to get her either try for real, or tell me what is going on. In some respects I don't want to rock the boat just yet since there have been minor signs of inprovement.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. But it is frustrating that counseling is not having any effect (at least in my oppinion). I realize this takes time, but I hate wasting the money if nothing is going to come of it. Maybe tonight will be different, I do think the counselor is going to be more agressive towards her.

I am sorry if I sounded harsh. I read back through me post and I think I came across a little harsh. I am a little jaded right now. I feel hopeless even though the A is over, I do not think my WW wants to work on us. She has never tried and always said she was not going to. Her ring still sits in the jewelry case.

I think it is important for you to bring up the conversation about the OM and WW. For her to open up with you about anything she is feeling, you need to show her you can talk with her about this without showing any signs of distress, anger, judgement, etc.

You may want to try something like this: Start off telling her you love her regardless of what she has done or what she is doing now. Explain to her why you love her going into specific detail. Tell her that you think you have a good idea that the A is still going on and that you love her anyway. Tell her that everyone makes mistakes and that God and you look at her in the same way. Sin is Sin and no one is better or worse for what they have done. Tell her that God views that if a man has lusted after a woman in his heart he is no better than someone who has had an affair and you feel the same way (Do you?). Do not say anything negative or demanding or say anything that would suggest that you are judgeing her. Then pop the big question. Do you still have feelings for the OM? When she tells you yes, do not get sad or mad just keep your poker face. Tell her that it makes you feel good that she shares these things with you. Then start talking about other things. A few days later do the same thing and inquire about additional information. Baby steps are required here. Rehearse all of this first before you do anything and believe what you say in your heart before you say it.

About your responses to my very blunt and insensitive questions (sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )
1) Try not to guess here. Deal with absolutes. Own your situation so that you can deal with in in the heart. If she has not gone through withdrawal (believe me you would know) she is still having an EA. Do not kid yourself. Follow your mind not your heart. Use reason because one of you two need to.
2) I still think that recovery is impossible until the OM is gone. You will not be able to win her over. I thought that I could compete with the OM. This is impossible. She is comitted to him if she had SF with him (period). My wife wrote to you telling you to try to fill certain needs. While she was writing this she was telling me that if the WW is committed, he has no hope of winning her over. The A needs to die for any hope of filling her needs. She was very gentle with you in her posts and harsh with me. She was actually telling me (through you) that I had no hope regardless of what I did because she was comitted to the OM.
3)This is an absoulte truth if the A is going on and if she had a PA she is committed. She is biding her time in the most comfortable state until the OM commits to marriage to her (ring and a date as Dr. Laura would say). A woman cannot be commited to two people at once. So where does that leave you?
5)Yes the lingo is good and she can relate to how you are feeling more importantly. Try asking her why she is reading the books.

What is it the most you want out of the MC when you go there? What I read from some of your posts is that you do quite a bit of LB'ing there. I think that you feel safe talking openely about your feelings with the MC. It is still LB's. You even said you hoped that the MC would be tough on her. I could be reading too much into your posts. It just seems like it is a nice place to vent for you by the way you described it.

I think tonight I should approach it as "what is your plan to getting us to recovery?". In reality since she says she is working on us, but there is limited action I just don't see it. I want to know why this gap exisits. I'm just at a real loss in how to get her either try for real, or tell me what is going on. In some respects I don't want to rock the boat just yet since there have been minor signs of inprovement.

IMHO: There is no action because there is no motivation or desire to work on the marriage. The OM exists in her mind and heart and she probably is commited to him. Give up on the recovery and work on Plan A. Recovery is what comes after the A is over and Plan A was successful.

Do not give up on the marriage. I am not suggesting that you "throw in the towel." I know that the A will end eventually. Almost all A's end because they were created in a vacume. Wait for the A to implode. Concentrate on Plan A. You are getting hung up on looking and working toward her giving you your desired response. This will not come until the A is completely over. The catch 22 of this, is that you need to become friends with her before she will tell you about the A. (Yes, I said friends.) As long as she is hiding things from you and being the way she is, you are just aquaintences not friends. The whole relationship process needs to start all the way at square one all over again. You have to nurture a friendship before it will become anything else. Just be there as a friend, and own your situation and deal with the fact that your WW may not be yours anymore, but someone elses.

Tonight at your MC, try just being yourself and a good friend to your WW. This will speak volumes to her.

Dreamland -

As for your situation, try not to be too jaded. All things take time and how your situation will turn out is far from certain. At this poit just try to continue your plan A, but in a more subtle way. Only she has the power to decide what she will work on, but at least without the OM that option is fading.

BTW I did not find your post harsh, don't be too hard on yourself. As for me, I guess I'm just having a few down days. I'm still not sure my WW was or is commited to to OM. OK, so she probably is/was but it is too hard to think about it that way. I do keep thoughts that this is the case in my head, but they make me want to LB so I put them aside to work my plan A (yes, they do seem to come out at counseling). Maybe part of my problem is that I am not dealing with reality. She is saying she is working on us, but I don't see it.

I guess I need to think more about how this will play out and what I am going to do or say. I still don't want my marriage to end, but I am not going to live a lie or have an incomplete marriage. I think I need to reasses my plan A and what I want out of life in general.

Please try to face reality here. It is the only way you will be able to deal with what is going on. You will actually lesson the LB'ing because you will not expect things from her. It is very tough to face that your WW is having a physical and emotional affair with the OM (my WW is almost 100% sure your WW is having a PA or had a very passionate PA). This is very hard to face, but you can do it. Do not depend upon her for anything including your hapiness. Move on with your life, because she has. Focus more on yourself and your degree. Forget about working hard to meet her EN's. This is nearly impossible now.

If you live in a dream, you will be unable to deal with reality when it comes striking in on you when you talk about the A or OM or even meeting your EN's. When faced with a big stroke of reality, you will lash out to protect your dream. This is why people LB. They have not accepted the reality and live in the dream. That is why I have been able to talk with my WW and not LB. Like my signature line says dreamland (was mine now hers). I took hold of reality with both fists and let it beat me to a pulp and got depressed for a while, but I dealt with it and was able to move on. The only time I felt real bad is when I faded into the dreamland again and was shocked back into reality. Stay in reality. Do not be in a fog like your WW. Come out and look at the sunshine again. Rationalize everything, it helps to eliminate your emotions from the situation. Remember that your WW's A will end. They are incompatible so it is an imposible venture that she is beginning just now to see and is trying to rationalize. Do not fuel the fire between you two. The more understanding you are the more terrible she sees the OM. The most important part of Plan A is not to fill EN's but to avoid LB's and to do this you need to come out of your dreamland.

Well I had faced reality for a long time, I guess I just have let myself slip into your "dreamland".

I don't know...she has told me for several weeks (maybee a month) that she wants to work on our marriage and has stated that "she doesn't want a divorce" These words have gotten into my head, while her actions have lagged behind. I guess I am coming back out of my fog (or denial) and starting to see what the facts are (but I only have the usual BS suspicions...which are generally correct).

I think I just need to sit back and think. I know I can accept the A and all of its baggage, I was and still am prepared to do this. I don't know what else to say right now...too much running through my head.

Well counseling was interesting. Like always we started with how we would assess the week. WW gave it an 8, while i gave it a 6. She stated that we got along well and things were smooth. I stated that I agreed that things were smooth, but only from an efficiency point of view and that our R was still lacking.

I talked about how I felt WW was still not really involved in making things work. She stated again that she is trying.

I brought up OM and I think I did it in non-LB manner. WW stated that she still had feelings for him but that she was not seeing him outside of work. She admitted to still talking to him outside of work and trading messages. I stated that this made me sad but that I was glad she was being honest. I told her it was more important to me that she told me things versus keeping them from me. We talked about the fact that she still had very little feelings for me. I told her that I didn't know how we could begin to work on us if she maintained the relationship with OM.

Our counsleor told her that at some point she would have to make a decision. He stated that short of ending it he did not see how our M could work. She stated that she had told OM that she was working on her M. Counselor pointed out that this was not enough. OM might hear her words but the contact continues. He then asked me if I was comfortable with her still working there. I said no since OM had been attracted to WW from the start. WW denied this at first but then agreed when I pointed out things she had said. WW siad she didn't feel she could leave her job becasue of the financial security. I stated that this was hard to believe since she almost accepted another job in January. Counselor told her she was still confused and her circumstances were making it impossible to figure things out.

After counseling WW cried on the way home. I told her again that I was happy she was being honest and talking about things. I told her they did not make me mad just sad. I told her I wanted her to feel OK talking to me and assured her I would listen and be honest with her about how I feel. I told her I loved her and lots of things about her (you don't need the list). I also told her that where we are today is no better than the past (the roles and feelings have changed...I didn't have an A, but was withdrawn). I let her know I wanted so much more out of our marriage and that is what I am trying to accomplish.

I don't know how to feel about all of this. I think I did a good job of bringing up the A and didn't LB (I hope). I guess we will just have to see where this goes from here.

Hi Onward,

It still looks positive to me. True, she is still in the throes of an addiction. But she is going to C and getting help.

Lets look at some things.

1. She talks to you about it now. She used to hide it and lie about it, deny everthing.

2. She spends time with you. She used to stay away, brush you off.

3. She used to say she wanted D, then she said she didn't know. Now she claims she wants to work on it, that looks like improvement.

4. You were able to explain your point of view in counceling. I believe she used to blow up and refuse to discuss things, even in counseling.

I see progress here. You can see more than we see, and we don't get the whole story from reading here, what do you see?

She is slow. She has problems but I still see progress. On good days, how do you feel? We always feel rotten on bad says, that's a given.
Are the good days now better than they were - say even a month ago?

Sorry to make you work some more, you could use a rest, but that's the way it goes sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You' just have to put up with it.

Smile some, get some sleep, let us know what you think. We do care.

SS

[ July 03, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I am clapping. We all need to stand and give you cheer for being strong. You have made a GIANT step in your relationship with your wife. You inquired and she revealed and you inquired and she revealed and you held on strong and gave positive feedback. GREAT JOB. I am so happy for you. I know you do not feel happy now because as she begins to open up more and more, you will find out more about her true feelings, and they will be hurtful. Be prepared guard your feelings. Grasp reality.

You are starting to become friends again. This is step one in a relationship starting from scratch. Keep in mind that your relationship needs to start out as friends all over again. Then from friends to best friends, then from best friends to lovers. You see know what it takes to be intimate with someone (not just your wife). It is not just what you say but how you truly feel when someone is sharing intimate things with you. You are rebuilding intimacy by her sharing her feelings with you and you showing her (not just telling) how important her feelings are to you.

As we suspected, she has very very strong feelings for the OM still. She is holding on to her job because she is holding on to hope with the OM. Do not make any demands on her to quit her job or put pressure on her to do so. She will do this when she is ready. Use this as a sign that she really wants to work on the marriage (my sign is my WW's ring). This sign will help you from slipping into dreamland again. Unfortunately, unlike my WW, she can not go without contact with the OM and still be at work. My WW can make arrangements while working at home, not to have to support the OM anymore. The only sign that you need that she is comitted to you again is that she finds another job. This will be your sign that she wants to save your marriage and you need for her to make this decision on her own without pressure from you to do this.

I know how you feel now. I have been there. The truth is painful, but it WILL set you free.

[ July 03, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]

OK, if anyone remembers that I got sprayed by a skunk a couple of months ago, I have an update. It seems the skunk that got me had a good reason. Last night I saw the skunk again, but this time she had four baby skunks with her. I guess I can't blame her anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Now on to more important things. WW today started a conversation about our marriage. She said that she is concerned about the school work I have to get done this summer. She stated that she feels like I need to make progress on it for her to feel comfortable with me. At first I was rather taken aback by this. I felt like she was putting conditions on me without giving anything herself. As I thought about it without LBing or saying anything I considered that at least this was her "taker" talking so she was at least engaging me. I told her that I would put more effort into getting things done and give her a timeline so she could assess my progress.

She then stated that she had talked about this in her individual counsleing (she has never talked about her counseling before). I asked her if she talked about the A also and she said yes. She then proceded to say that she felt the A and her feelings for OM had developed over a long time as she felt I had withdrawn. She also stated that she did not like the way I had talked to her in the past and that a major attraction of the OM was that he is so laid back and never says anything negative. She acknowledged that I have made great progress and cited examples as to how I am doing better.

I told her I was happy we were talking about this and let her know that the fact the A continues hurts me. I told her I was not angry but that it was difficult to make progress on my work with this on my mind. I also let her know that I did not view OM as a bad person, but that I could never accept him in our lives again. She stated that the A was totally initiated by her and OM wasn't the issue. I told her again that I did not view OM as a bad person, but that in retrospect I could see that he had always been attracted to her. She acknowledged this, but said she hadn't thought about it or asked him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . She did end the conversation by saying that she knew how to deal with the OM and the A, but was not ready yet. I didn't pursue this since I didn't want to make a demand.

In general I see more progress here (I guess). If nothing else I now have more information to refine my plan A.

Dreamland -

I did notice you posted on my thread when all h*** was breaking loose for you. I appreciate you thinking about me and adding your thoughs. Yes it is a long path, but you are helping me make some postive steps. Without your support and advice I may not have seen how to get her to start opening up. I hope you and Mrs. Dreamland are hanging in there (I left a comment on your poll thread).

Still Seeking -

Thank you for continuing to check in on me. I may know what I need to do, but I don't always do it. Your advice and comments are very important to me. I see you as one of the people who really understands the MB concepts and how to put them into action, with success.

The four points you make in your post are correct. As for progress you can see from my other post tonight that there are more good things going on. In some respects I think she is still testing me to see if I can make the changes she wants to see. Is this fair (with no committment to end the A), no not necessarily. But the things that she is asking will benefit me as much as her so there is no skin off my back for doing them. I guess my one concern is that she will come up with a new list once these are under control (she does have a habit of creating new things to worry about once a milestone is passed).

As for the good days...I would say they are better than a few months ago (a good day then was just to survive). On the other hand, the good days now remind me of the bad things in our R prior to D-day (just in reverse). So your could say we are better than the last few months, but as far as a marriage is concerned there is a lot of work to do.

OK...So we were having a deep conversation today. WW wanted to know what it would take to for me to trust her again. I replied that I think you already know this. She said "No". So I told her I have issues with her relationship with OM and I feel like you want to keep your realtionhsip with him. I told her I was uncomfortable with the work relationship and her need to keep things secret from me.

She then had the nerve to say "I guess this means you won't be coming to the work Christmas party". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I realy wanted to say "if you are still working there at Christmas I don't think I'll be with you so it doesn't matter". I didn't say anything but it is so hard to understand where her head is (I think it is up her A**).

We talked some more and she told me additional needs that she has (back to the admiration and telling her she looks good). In general the conversation was not all that bad, but I get so frustrated by her lack of caring for how I feel and understanding about what it will take to get to recovery. I am starting to feel like I may need to go to plan B at some point down the line because she is sucking the life out of me. I realize there is still lots more that I can improve (this is what I am going to do for now). I just don't think she realizes that her actions are making me doubt if I realy want to be with her.

Onwardandup,

I have been out on vacation, so have not checked in till this morning. We had a great holiday vacation with family at a nearby lake resort. My WW is going through withdrawal. Not as heavy and hard as the first go round. She is nearly convinced herself that the A is over, but still not quite there emotionally. I can here what is going on in her mind if I sit still enough and push out my hurt long enough to listen to her. She is making progress in her thinking. She is slowly becoming much more rational.

I almost did not want to come back here to the MB site. I really received quite a bit of negativity from my last couple posts. I can understand. Many people here are driven by the emotional aspect on things. Emotionally speaking, I am crazy. I can feel that people really do care about me here and my situation. They care enough to see that I am being taken advantage of. I know this and I am O.K. with it for a short duration.

Sorry about talking so much about myself here.

I think you are doing an excelent job. She is finally starting to open up a little. Be careful with your feelings here. You are not going to like what she is going to tell you. Once she begins to tell you all of her feelings, it will be tremendously painful. The pain will be much more difficult then if she kept her feelings to herself, but it is critical for you to move on to being friends. Her talking to you about her feelings will help you stay out of the dreamland and in reality.

I would like to address specifically some things I noticed in your posts:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She said that she is concerned about the school work I have to get done this summer......She also stated that she did not like the way I had talked to her in the past and that a major attraction of the OM was that he is so laid back and never says anything negative. <hr /></blockquote>Listen very carefully to what she is telling you about you. They are trees that seeds have sown long ago. Try to look beyond the leaves and branches and trunk that time has grown, but pay attention to the seed that was planted. God has given us women as a "help meet". In other words, God has put in women an ability to polish the diamond in the rough into what God intended for us to be. Women constantly remind (nag as some men may say) us of our faults. We get so angry mainly because of our hardened hearts and pride. Shutting out what our wifes (yes even WW's) is shutting out what the Holy Spirit is saying to us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />WW wanted to know what it would take to for me to trust her again. I replied that I think you already know this. She said "No". So I told her I have issues with her relationship with OM and I feel like you want to keep your realtionhsip with him. I told her I was uncomfortable with the work relationship and her need to keep things secret from me. <hr /></blockquote>I do not think your WW was talking present tense, even though you might have seen it this way. She obviously is still having an affair, you know she is still in this affair, and she has told you she is still having an affair. So what "trust" do you think she was talking about. She is talking about your future with her after OM is out of the picture. Try not to get so wrapped up in the present circumstances, it will make it difficult for you to see clearly to what the future holds. (Sounds easy, but I had a tough time with this myself).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In general the conversation was not all that bad, but I get so frustrated by her lack of caring for how I feel and understanding about what it will take to get to recovery. <hr /></blockquote>IMHO: I think she does care about how you feel, and I think she feels real guilty. That is why she is so torn up right now. She knows the OM has to leave in order for recovery to occurr. She does not want recovery now. She wants to make the M work (in her mind), but she is holding out for the OM (in her heart). She is committed to the OM heart and body, but in her mind she is committed to you. Do not forget this. She is not yours anymore, she belongs (and has given herself) to someone else. This is the current state. She will eventually give up the OM (the A is on its last leg). You are showing her what she fell in love with and it is helping her chose the right path (dump the OM). The winner in all of this is the one that is left standing, unfalted, innocent, steadfast, true love, and stronger and better than ever(YOU).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am starting to feel like I may need to go to plan B at some point down the line because she is sucking the life out of me. <hr /></blockquote>Plan B is not a good idea now. The A is dying a natural death. Let it die. Do not get sucked into dying with it. If I did not see signs that the A is dying and if I saw signs that you could not handle this, I would recommend Plan B, but you are very strong and you understand what true love is. True love you can see when all the other love is stripped from you. I see you have this love for WW. Hold on to this love.

She is not sucking the live out of you, she is sucking Love Units from your love bank. You are feeling withdrawal. Monitor this closely because you will get to a point where you will not feel any love for her anymore. When this happens, you will need to get your affairs in order. Remember you will sink into this pit several times as she deposits love units you will pull out of it. Then she will talk about OM and you will sink back into it. When you are in the pit for a week or so, it will be time to consider (Plan B) unless you can live with her without LB'ing.

I think you are closer to the seeing the end of the A then you actually know. I would give it at least a couple of months.

Work on being her friend and establish a good line of communication. Just keep in mind that you are not going to like to here her feelings and prepare for it!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just don't think she realizes that her actions are making me doubt if I realy want to be with her.<hr /></blockquote>Her actions have improved significantly. The "fog" is lifting. What is so hurtful to you is her opening up to you and you finding out what is truly inside. This is a very very very positive action. What you are seeing is reality and it hurts. The past actions are painful, but her present actions are very hopeful. Focus on the present, not the past.

Well I have got to go, spent too much time online already. I hope this helps you and what I said has not hurt.

Hi Onward,

I think Dreamland is right on the money here. I won't comment on each item, I don't disagree with him at all on any point.

And I think you are correct also.

You speak of continuing to improve because that's all you can do now. I agree you should continue to improve. You should talk to her about that. Ask for feedback. I wouldn't worry much about her finding lots of new things once you get the first batch done. If you get into recovery, you will be able to work that out.

Watch out for what dream says about her hurting you when she talks. She won't see that she is doing it, and it will really hurt. DON'T LB when she starts coming out with radical honesty. That's another thing you can be up front about. "W I love you and want to know what's going on, but sometimes it hurts me more than I can stand, if I walk away, please let me go until I can process the pain and come back to the conversation."

You are at the point where you can talk. Some would disagree but I always think that is the prelude to recovery. It seems to me, that when they are willing to talk, they want to recover and are looking for a way to make it happen. Like an alcoholic that finally says " I have a problem." It's the first REALLY BIG step. She doesn't know all that you know. You have put a great deal of effort into recovery, she is just starting to realize that she wants it. She doesn't' t know how to get over an A. She doesn't know how to give you back trust ( sorry, I disagree with you on that one.) She won't know half of what you have told her the last few months, she really wasn't listening.

Lets discuss her for a little bit.
A. She wasn't able to see what was happening and find this site or something like it before she went for the A. You did, that should tell you something about her state of development compared to yours. She sought for short term release of pressure, you sought for increased pressure with a long term solution.
B. You have done most of the work in saving your marriage. You could have just walked away when you found out but you didn't. She also could have walked away, but she didn't. Think about that one.
C. She doesn't spend much time learning about the dynamics of marriage and how to work on it. You spend lots of time at it.
D. She really doesn't understand herself very well, or know why she did what she did. ( she could probably give you a reason, but she really doesn't understand it.)
E. She doesn't understand you and your changes, and she doesn't know yet that it is for real.
F. She hopes it is for real, she hopes marriage is going to be saved but she doesn't know how it will work. Her ideas about it working are not very realistic, she believes that somehow everything will be fine in a short time, but she has no idea how that will come about.

My point is that you think she should be coming along but it is so slow, you are wondering if you can take it any longer. Look at Orchid, Cali, Hope4you, Lor, and many, many others. Over a year after D day for many of them and they are just now getting some results. Some are BS, some are WS. Usually, only one of them gets it. One does most of the work. There is no way in the world that she can understand it as well as you do, or come along as fast as you have come. You either have to wait for her, or leave her.

I don't think any of us would blame you if you said." I can't take it any longer, I'm done." That is reality much of the time. If you get there, don't prolong your agony. But, as long as you want to continue, we will help you work on it.

Go over it all again with her. Do it NICELY. When she asks, that's when you can teach. Ask her again if she wants to talk about trust. If yes, teach her. Tell her only as much as she can take. Preface it with your feelings so she knows where you are too. APOLOGIZE TO HER for not telling her what she asked before. Lay it all out for her.

1. W, I am love you and want our marriage to recover.
2. I realize that I was part of the problem and I am working on changing. ( how am I doing?)
3. I can only go on so long without help from you.
4. Here is what I need from you right now. ( and then tell her.) When you get to no contact, not working with OM she will resist it, you already know that. You need to find a way to make it about your feelings, not about her actions. You don't believe your feelings of trust can return, or your damaged emotions can heal if she has continued contact. Perhaps some men could do it, but you cannot. So, even if she could remain in contact and stop A, you would not be able to cope with it emotionally.
5. It is emotionally draining for me to have seen you go for someone else. It continues to drain me to wonder what is still happening.
6. I will soon get to the point where I can't take it any longer.
7. When I get to that point I will have to leave or go insane, so I will leave.
8. My state of mind has nothing to do with your good intentions, you have to show me with your actions that you want to make it work.
9. Explain how it has affected you emotionally. Had a hard time doing school work, depressed, moody ( or whatever, but let her see your hurt.) Apologize for it, but get it out.
10. Recap.
" W, I am going to demonstrate my changes to you. Prove I care, Prove I want you, Prove you and this marriage are important. Then, after you have had time to know I am for real, it will be your turn. You will need to demonstrate that you want me the same way. Show no contact, etc. If you can't do it for me, I will leave. " She needs to understand that it is not an ultimatum. It's just that there will be no reason to stay with someone that has chosen to leave you and be with someone else.

Add whatever else you want to add. Do it on a good day for both of you.

Onwardandup, these are just ideas, hope you can find something you can use in all this. Continue to improve, give her reason to believe you can become what she wants, needs. Care for her and protect her at all costs. Be the person she always dreamed you would be, could be. I still see good, but I see lots of work too. Lots of work.
All of us have pride, do things wrong. If you can cut her some slack for her weaknesses, she will respond in the right way. We hope your love can outlast her pride.

When you start to get burnt out, take a week off and just coast. Back off, don't watch her so close, or talk to her so much. If she asks, tell her why in a nice way. " The effort of trying to rebuild our marriage when I know you chose to have an A is very draining for me. Long term I think it will work, short term, I am exhausted, please give me some space." These kinds of things are not LB. But keep it nice, or it will be. Be careful of the words you use, and your tone of voice.
See you later,
SS

[ July 08, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Hi O.

Looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. We haven't spoken for a while, so I'll indulge myself and give you an update on what is going on with me (I know you're hanging on the edge of your seat). You and I may need to lean on each other for a change because my deadline of the end of Aug. is approaching. After over a year of separation, and not much movement one way or another in the last six months, WH and I agreed (at my suggestion) that we would give it a few more months and then I would need some closure. He would be apparently content to let the present situation continue indefinitely, probably until I was permanently replaced.

It has been really rough, and although I had been getting on with my life, seeing other people, building a life where I was just HJL and not part of a couple, the realization that the end is probably near is very scary. It's very difficult to actually and finally give up hope, when you've been carrying it around with you for a long time. I have been talking to my C about the fact that the inertia has taken a toll, and that toll is mounting. Limbo is only bearable if you have some hope that it will change, and when it doesn't change for a long while, you realize that it would be better to snuff that candle out and start over, rather than to continue to put your life on hold. This could go on forever, if I let it. I have given him fourteen months of my life to make a decision. I worked on myself and attempted to make positive changes, not just for him, but for myself, and I have benefitted from it. It's sad, but one of the things that happened along the way was I realized that he wasn't growing up; he just got smaller.

I know it is not the hope of many people posting here, God bless them, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. For those who don't know anything about me (and I don't wish to start a dialogue about myself on O's thread - he needs your support) I am in a situation where my WH does not want a divorce, talks about how great it would be if we could reconcile and have a better R, but works all the time and takes no real action to achieve these goals. When asked, he maintains, after over a year, that he still doesn't know what he wants. O, I see some similar things developing in your situation, so if you are in it for the long haul, as I was, be prepared for the possibility that your limbo could last for a long time, without you feeling as if you have any real value to your WW. It's very tough on the self-esteem, so it's good that you have IC to rely upon. Keep up with it, it was a lifesaver for me.

I have felt used because he sees me as a safety net - I'm there for him, and he can come and go as he pleases without giving me anything to sustain my faith in him, and he thinks I'll still be there for him to fall back on. I have been told by my C that once I initiate the divorce process, I will feel better because I will be doing something for myself to end the confusion and limbo and pain that I have been suffering from for over a year. I fought that for over a year and Plan A'd as much as I could. But my experience has been that you can't make any real change when only one person is committed to working it out. Causing someone to fall back in love with you is a very, very difficult process, and it works for some people here, but sadly not for me. I am at least grateful that I have made the most out of my time alone, I have done some work on myself and although I am scared about giving up, I think I will be ok.

The next six weeks for me will be about trying to have the patience to wait it out without snapping and saying "I know where we're headed, let's just cut to the chase." They will also be about gathering the strength to do what I know I have to do at the end of that time. I don't want to file; I still love him, even though he has deeply disappointed me. It's heartbreaking, but WH is not the man I married (or thought I married), and even if we were to reconcile, I have to admit I don't see myself being very happy with him, always being afraid that he would leave again. Somewhere I need to find the strentgh, when I end it, to REALLY end it, and not contact him, not respond when he contacts me, and just put him in my past. O, you've seen this unfold over the last year, and I know, even though you are committed to the principles laid out here, you would probably agree that it is over. I gave it my best shot and I wish him well. I'm sure at some point he will find someone new, but he will never find another woman like me. Cerebrally, I know I will be fine, but my innards are still afraid of closing the door and locking it behind me. Might need your help. You know the situation, so you know this is not going to come easy for me.

Sorry to go on and on and usurp your thread to talk about myself. Despite my own experience, I still hope the best for you and your W. I'm an optimist at heart, even now. Let me know if there's anything I can do. H.

HI, just wanted to touch base, mainly because we seem to have alot in common as far as A's go!!! I went on retreat to the beach (cool retreat!) without H and had a great time, lots of meditation and sun. Things are the same for me, might as well post the same thread as last month. H and I are just beginning counseling, our pastor did not think I was far enough along to start the heavy stuff last time we talked. Now, I still feel the shock and all but I can get through the day well enough.

OW remains in the picture, although she is behaving herself a bit now. She seems to find a way to work a shift with my husband whenever he is there. He doesn't see it as unusual, but a flag goes up for me every time he mentions her (he continues to tell me every time they speak or see each other).

I was looking over your thread, I had no idea what you are going through. I'm sorry that you aren't able to open her up more about everything. My husband used to play those games with me, like it was all in my mind. Thank God for whomever it was that called me four weeks ago today (can't believe that!). The part the still gets me: He would still be seeing her like always if I hadn't gotten that call.

This may take me a while (till tomorrow) to finish all of the posting I need to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry I have been absent for a few days (just needed a mental health vacation from all the good news on this forum)

First to HJL -

I'm sorry that reality is hurting so bad. Yes, it has been a long road you have been down. I want you to know that I am always there to talk and provide a shoulder of you need one.

As for the situation and upcoming deadline, I know it is tough. No matter how much we try, when the reality of an end comes into sight it is difficult. Only you know what you must do when September comes and I know you will make the right decision (for you...and that is who the decision needs to be for).

Try to remember this is not about you. You have looked at yourself and made changes. If things go the way they are looking, it is not because you did not give it the effort. You are a good person and life will treat you right in the long run.

Lastly, I would say try not to focus on the deadline, it will make you crazy. Just try to be the good person that you are and enjoy the rest of the summer. Yes this is hard, but there is no reason to drive yourself crazy for six weeks (heck, its been 14 months <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

You know how to reach me if you want to talk.

Tere38 -

I'm glad you are starting to feel a litle more under control. There will be good days and bad days so take it easy and take care of yourself. I know this may not be what you want to hear, but it is better to be prepared for the ups and downs versus having them sneak up and hit you over the head.

The OW will be a trigger for a whole range of emotions for you and these will not just fade away. I assume your H is telling you that she is working when he is and letting you know about any interaction they have. This is a very positive sign and I think it speaks volumes about his desire to work on your marriage.

As for the counseling be prepared to take it slow. These things need to take time, even if you and your H want to make more progress. Instead of rushing things, your time will be well spent in building a solid foundation for you re-build your marriage. (I'm not implying that you intend or want to rush things, just giving my opinion about how to procede).

Good luck and keep me updated on how things are going.

Cheers.

Wow, this is a huge thread!! I have tried multiple times to start a new thread for myself, but can't seem to compose it well enough to keep it from rambling. I hope that you are doing well, that your 'vacation' was just what you needed. I know mine was, it was hell leaving him behind, but he's been sleeping with her under my nose for two years so if he's going to do it he's going to do it. By the way, he says he didn't and we talked for hours every night while I was gone, so I worried for naught.

We are currently going through the 'How much do you actually want to know about the A?' phase, and I am struggling with this. I don't want him to have anything to think about later on that I don't know myself, but then I am left with these mental images that are sickening. He is willing to put it all out there, but is it healthy for me to want to know all the details?

On an up note, I am in better physical condition now than I have been in years. Someone on this site called it the 'infidelity diet'. I actually can see my abs and have dropped three sizes in one month. I jog five days a week, the endorphins are amazing. Also, I figure if I am in some competition with this other person, I intend to win. It's the first time in my life that I have had to fight for the guy, I usually won without trying very hard. Getting slapped in the face occasionally can do wonders for the psyche, I suppose.

Hope you have a great Sunday. We are going to H's family reunion this afternoon, what fun.

Tere38 -

Sorry for the length of my thread. I guess most of it is a lot of rambling, but I feel better just continuing on versus starting a new thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for how much to know, it is a personal decision. There are many here who would advocate knowing everything, but that doesn't have to be the case. My individual counselor has suggested that what is more important is solving the issues going forward versus looking at the past. In some ways there is a certain amount of detail that probably doesn't help the BS. It is also possible that no matter how much the WS tells a BS, there will remain some doubt. So IMHO it is most important to talk about no-contact, the WS being honest if there is contact, how to deal with triggers, and how to A-proof your marriage in the future.

The "diet" worked for me too. At my low point I was down 24 pounds and I was skinny to start. At least I've gotten some of those pounds back so I look healthy.

OK, now that I've taken care of everything else, I can get on with what has been going on on my end.

I took the week off (as suggested by Still Seeking) to recharge the batteries and think. One of the things that had been bothering me was that I was posting a lot of things here but not communicating with my WW. In some respects this was to give her the space she requested, but I was also afraid of her reactions to my feelings (I was not sure she would care or consider them important).

I still have been having a hard time getting things done and my sleep has been very erratic. I made the decision to increase my anti-D dosage to the standard dose (I had been on a low dose). I thought this was wise because I need to get my focus back and there are still a lot of potential pitfalls ahead. My individual counsleor agreed that this was the right thing to do. She also told me that I needed to address my concerns with WW and suggested I do it in our next joint counsleing session.

WW has still been showing some improvement. She worked late one night this week and called several times to tell me what the reason was. When she got home she even told me she was afraid I would think she was with OM. I told her I appreciate this and I believe her. I told her I have my fears about her and OM and that she was helping to keep them under control.

I decided yesterday to have a conversation with WW about the OM and contact. I started by telling her that I had increased my anti-d dosage becasue I was still having concerns about us. I told her that I am having difficulty with her working with OM and that it is a big issue for me. I told her this wasn't about her as much as my ability to feel secure in a future relationship with WW. I focused on my feelings and was very calm (Yes I used your plan, STILL SEEKING - THANK YOU). At one point my WW was still hearing what she wanted to hear and said "I'm glad we talked, I though you were going to say I needed to leave my job or you would leave me". I calmly replied "You may have misinterpreted me, I am telling you that I need to feel secure in my relationship with you and I can't live in constant fear. I want OM out of our life totally and as far as I can see there is no way you can work there and we can achieve this." I also let her know that since she has admitted that she still has feelings for OM, I was not sure how she would resolve this while she was still working with him.

At first she walked away after the conversation, so I kept working outside (she wants a screen porch and deck built off the back of our house and I was working on the holes for the support posts). As an aside, on last Tuesday I went outside and found a baby skunk in one of the holes I had dug. I didn't want it to die, but I certainly didn't want to get sprayed again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I decided to get it out of the hole and take my chances. After I lifted it up, it was very happy and proceeded to follow me around the yard for a while. It never sprayed me and eventually went into the woods in search of its family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So back to my WW...after a while she came out and we talked some more. I told her I wasn't trying to make a demand of her nor did I want her to take a job she didn't like. I restated how her contact with OM made me feel and how I couldn't get past this. I told her I was willing ot work with her to find a solution that we could both be happy with. We never argued and left it as a topic we would take up in joint counseling on Tuesday (I know the counselor will not dispute my point of view on this one). We both agreed that in that in the counseling session we may be better able to find a mutually agreeable solution.

Last night and this morning she has been more affectionate than lately, even coming to hug and hold me. I can't tell what she is thinking but I consider it an important step that we were able to have this conversation outside of counseling. I know I could have waited for the counseling session, but I thought it was worth the risk to try it on our own. I guess only time will tell.

Hi Onward,

I hope that with all you have been through, you are still OK in side your heart. I can tell you have your head on straight but I worry about your feelings. Still, you sound OK, pretty good actually.

I have read hundreds of stories on this site and can't remember any where good communication returned without recovery being far behind. I hope it is true for you.

Remember that both of you ( all of us, you are not alone) have a long way to go. You will have to be careful of what you say and how you say it for quite some time. It will eventually become habit, and you can quit worrying about it. You will be working on your marriage forever, as near as I can tell, it never ends, but you get happier and happier as you go. ( 25 years for me.)

Watch yourself, but keep up the good work.

SS

So Onward,

Is the up part of your name still valid?

Tell us how things are going -

I hate to admit I worry about you, but I find I still do.

Ss

I think this baby skunk was an *~~omen~~* !

You will be handling some stinky subjects in the future ... and you will come out *smelling like a rose* .........

Yes, that's it. I'm sure.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

ONWARDANDUP!!!!

WHERE ARE YOU???!!!!!

I am yelling here in hope you will hear.

Onward? Onward? You still there?
Anyone seen Onwardandup lately?

Maybe I should look over by the copy machine?
Onward?

[ August 05, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

OK, Hi everyone. Yes I'm still here (not usually logged-in, but doing some lurking).

Why am I not posting like I used to? What has been happening? Are things better? What is the meaning of life?...All good questions, and I'm not sure I know the answer to any of them but I'll give it a shot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lets start with why I haven't been posting all of the time. (1) When I last posted my anti-d's had been increased. This turned into a disaster. I couln't sleep but was not energized and instead lethargic all of the time. In some respects I felt like I was in a fog all of the time. My dosage has now been dropped back and I am feeling better. (2) I have an incredible ammount of work to do. I am completing one paper, starting a new one (very important), preparing to teach a new class this fall, working on hugh deck off the back of the house, and been out of town a few times. I will shortly be away again for a week long conference. (3) Sometimes the forum can take a lot of time and leave you depressed when you see all of the pain out there.

What has been happening...(1) WW and I are still going to joint counseling and it has still been positive. Our counselor has asked her to consider leaving her job, but has made no progress. He also has made the comment that she needs to work harder and I am doing most of the talking and work. (2) She has ended all phone calls with OM and is now getting her cell phone bill at home. (3) She states that she is over OM but this is hard to verify since I didn't see much withdrawal. She has made some comments that indicate her displeasure with how OM runs the business (she hadn't done this in a long while). (4) WW is becoming much more loving to our daughter and her level of stress/anger/ect. about life in general seems to be improved.

Are things better?...Maybee? I am in a position now where I will not let my hopes get too high. In some respects I am guarding my feelings while I continue with Plan A. If I step back, I would have to say that things continue to improve, but they are still not where they need to be by a long shot. As has been noted by SS, my WW seems to be very slow in making progress. She is at least exhibiting her taker which means she is engaged in some form of R with me. I am trying to find the ballance between letting her taker get fullfilled while stressing that what I want is give and take.

What is the meaning of life?...This one I do not have an answer for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Right now I am trying to focus on defining what I want out of life versus what others expect of me.

Dreamland -

I have read you recent posts (you aren't posting as much lately also). Is your WW's A over? This is the same question I ask myself. Just ending contact or saying it is over doesn't seem to give us the confidence that this is the case. IMHO, the A is over when the WS decides to move down a new life path (like when the M stoped and the A began). To me this happens after withdrawal and the choice could be to start working on a relationship with the BS again or choose to create a whole new life.

At this point I think the best thing for either of us is to continue with Plan A. I see you have been trying to find things that make you happy and I think that is the right thing to do. I am rediscovering what gets me excited about my career choice. Designing and building the screen porch/deck also gives me a lot of pleasure and this is something I can do with WW.

Thats all for now. Cheers.

[ August 06, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: onwardandup ]

Hi Onward,

The time you spend on this forum is supposed to be for your benefit. If you don't have the time, always put first things first and take care of your family and school.

We just wanted you to know that we care about you and that in this world where so much bad happens, people are wishing good for you.

I hope you keep reading HNHN over and over. I don't believe we can ever retain something 100%. I think that information renewal helps us maintain relationship renewal.

Everything you have said leads me to believe that in time, things will be right at your house.

SS

PS, Just for your information, Dreamland seems to be doing much better. He is more positive, seems to have gotten himself together and is not suffering so much. I am pretty sure he will be OK the rest of his life.

Thanks SS...

I know peolpe here realy care and the forum has provided me with a great amount of support. The hard part of the forum is realizing not to let it take over too much precious time.

I have always appreciated your comments and have found you insights to be right on track. I hope your predcitions continue to come true.

I hope all is going well for you.

Cheers

HEY ONWARDANDUP!!!!

I missed you buddy. I went to Georgia Institute of Technology for undergraduate and graduate work and know what it is like to have the screws turned to you. I did not have a life outside of school then.

I wish I had the same drive you do. I am envious of your ability to put attention toward anything other than your situation. GOOD JOB.

I am feeling much better, but unable to get motivated to work. I need to put it into high gear before my projects start to turn sour. I have good people working for me, and for that I am thankfull. I am stuck at the MB site most of the time at work. I need to set boundaries for myself, but I am not motivated enough to do so.

I bought a new car. Finally tossed out the 92 civic without AC and barely working radio (engine blew). I purchased a 2003 VW Passat. Sweet car!!!

I have been posting quite a bit,.... some insite later.

You are correct about defining the end of the A. You put that in good words. I never thought about it that way before. It is hard to see the steps that my WW is taking to improve us. She is still in withdrawal. She has had minimal contact with OM, mostly business (two to three telephone calls according to her). Only one of the calls was personal because she received an apology letter from OMW. She says she still has strong feelings for OM still.

I am not sure what else I can do. She says I am a terrific husband and she says she watched Oprah the other day and could define me as an excellent husband (or something like that).

I have not tried MC yet. With our schedules being as tight as they are, this would be very difficult. I am not sure if I will try MC. I will give the withdrawal part some time and see if the A is actually over. It has been a solid month.

It sounds like things are improving for you too.

I am begining to believe that all marriages go through bumps in the road that brings the love banks to near empty. Infideltiy I think just hastens the whole process. I believe I heard almost 80% of marriages are touched by infidelity. Even then, it did not take infidelity to put us in the state we are in, our marriages were almost already there. The hard part about A's is that us truly good BS's need to put up with all of this crap until the A is over. Then we have to rebuild all that was lost.

In a way, I am looking foward to dating again. We are going out tomorrow on a date, I hope. We have anchored a good babysitter, the same babysitter that watches the kids till noon during the day so that WW can work. I am looking foward to re-awakening the passion we once had. I believe it could be as good,if not better, then when we first met. Maybe that is just the optimist speaking.

[ August 06, 2002, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]