So I removed myself from the bedroom last night. Actually, this was by design since I wanted to watch the USA soccer match at 2:30 am and I knew she would object to the alarm going off in the middle of the night. At least this time they won and it was a great game. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>By pursuit, I mean looking to get her to talk or be affectionate, want SF, etc. I am just trying to be there when she needs or wants me and put all of my needs and wants on hold. I'm not very good at this but it takes some of the pressure off. I guess I a also looking at it from a friend point of view. The bottom line is that by not looking or asking for anything the atmosphere is less stressfull for her.<p>My daughter is 19 months old today. She is not a big talker yet, but she understands everything that is said. I don't think she has been impacted too much by the atmosphere at home since we don't fight and she gets lots of love. WW and her are going to start swim classes tonight and maybe WW can find some normal people (women) to be friendly with.<p>The affection thing is so strange. At one point she seems to warm-up and then it goes away. I think she has built a wall to keep herself away from me when it starts to come down she builds it back up. This morning we were intimate and she cried. I think this is becasue she is slowly realizing that her assumption that I did not want to be with her is wrong.<p>As for Plan A and Plan B, I don't have a time line established. If there were no signs of progress I may be thinking about Plan B, but the overall trend is still in the right direction (but slow if any movement). Her anger is related to me talking to my family, but it is not about the A. She is somewhat justified about this, but it is ironic considering what she is doing. My family has no concern or interest in the other information but it is important to her. <p>I think the way I reacted to her comments and anger were right on target. In some respect you can't get too hung-up on words and only focus on actions (yes she did kick me out of the room but only for a few days). If I beleived all the hurtfull things she has said I would be long gone. In most cases they just seem to be angry outbursts said without much thinking. Only time will tell what is real and what is not.

Good idea about the stop pursuit thing. I think I have been pursuing her too much and trying too hard. I will keep to my routine of calling her twice a day since conversation is so high on her list. If she wants to talk, I will talk. If not, I will go about my own business.<p>My oldest is not affected by all of this. We are very cordual with each other and we really never argue or raise our voices. WW is a great mom. She gives them lots of attention.<p>A wall is a good analogy. My wife builds these too. These walls are too high to scale and two thick to knock down. Only time she is affectionate with me is at night when she is almost asleep she may cuddle with me, but this is rare.<p>I am glad to here that her anger is focused on you talking to your family. Still, it is amazing she could be angry considering her actions. I know if I ever told my family, it would make things very tough for her. She loves my family and she would be very embarrassed. She will run from anyone that sees her vulnerability.<p>I am glad to see that you are not getting hung up on the mean words. <p>I appreciate your posts on my thread to my wife. Unfortunately, I think I got caried away with this and the whole thing blew up in my face. She read my two responses and for the first response she said YUK!! YUK!!! YUK!! (no kidin'). The second response she said I am too much of a preacher. She said that she felt icky by my first response because I sounded like I was trying too hard. Well I will not try again that is for sure. I am tired of being beat down when I try to make our marriage work. She told me she has no desire to meet my EN's and hence could care less. She has no desire to commit to the marriage (said this again on Sunday-great way to top off the weekend). She has no desire to make our marriage work. <p>From now on, I am no longer trying. I am only going to be as real and sincere as I possibly can and not try to win her over. I believe this is not affective and in her words "makes me look like a begging puppy dog." [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I can't post for myself anymore here because it seems to be just a LB. I made the mistake of telling her about this forum because I thought it would help if she sees how I am feeling. It only makes me look week and pathetic. I probably will continue to lurk around and keep up with everyone's story. I will occassionally pop in and post here and there. I do not think I should give advice when it seems like nothing I do at home is right. I will keep in touch with your threads, but do not be offended if I post alot less frequently. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for all your support. I have apprciated your input and your philosophy. It is refreshing to see someone out there not trying to manipulate but just trying to love.

Dreamland - <p>I am not surprised by your WW's reaction. As I have been told my WW is not ready for a relationship with me or to have deep conversations (yes, I thought we were in a relationship). I think your WW is also at this point. When you described a friendship you were right on track. I think you have made progress by being a friend but we can't take a friendship and suddenly make it into more than that. If you think about the A it first developed as a friendship and then progressed into more. Your answers to her post were well thought out but not what she wanted to hear. Take the information and use it...do not smother her, talk to her about how you will use the information, or talk about your needs. In time the oportunity may come to discuss these things but let her get there first.<p>I don't think all of your posting is a LB. If it was she would not be reading or posting. Yes you need to consider what she reads into it, but once again look at her actions. If it was all bad and makes you look weak she would not be reading (this is the action). I think you should continue to try and win her over but do it in actions not words. She is scared by words so just show her that you are there for her, trying to meet her needs, and being a friend.<p>I also don't think your advice is off target. Every situation is diferent and we can all learn from what others have faced. Just following other peoples stories hepls to make sense of everything.<p>As for affection I get the occasional snuggle in the morning or at night. Last night my WW told me to get away from her becasue I was too warm. I LBed this and now I am starting to calm down. I don't know if I was just too warm or if she did not want me to touch her? This is a perfect case where I should not have said anything becasue I did not know what was realy in her head.<p>As for the walls, we can not bring them down. In fact our actions can only serve to reinforce them. Our WWs will have to be the ones to take down the barriers. I think you are doing a good job of providing an atmosphere where this can happen.<p>Oh well, tonight is marriage counseling session number three. Lets hope the counsleor takes the attack to my WW. I think he will so I am planning on just being calm and quiet.

Onwardandup,<p>Thanks. I have quite the mood swings nowadays.<p>Had another epiphany so I posted it. See what you think.

Hey Onwardandup,<p>Thanks for the backup on the other post.<p>How did the marriage counseling go last night? Did he got at your WW?

Marriage counseling was interesting. It started with her expressing her anger am me disclosing things and continued to get ugly. I didn't wait for the counselor to get started and just went off. I expressed my feelings about how I could not trust anything WW says and how she is not being honest with me. She stated that she was only trying to develope independence. I then said having your cell phone bills delivered to work so you could hide you phone activity is not about independence. I also said I am sick of getting bashed and talking about what I have done to the marriage when the subject of what she has and is doing is off-limits.<p>In some respects we had an ugly session but you could say we were in conflict as opposed to withdrawl. She kept saying that she is trying, but I said that without talking to me how can I know this.<p>We didn't talk on the way home or in bed. This morining she wanted to talk and it was more of the same. She stated that I am being hurtfull (hard to understand this one). She again said that the current situation is not important. I told her that it is to me. <p>She stated that upon reflection she sees her biggest need as affection and I am not giving it. I stated that I have been trying but she won't let me near her. As an example I stated that she sits in the living room in a way so that I can not get near her. If I ask her to sit with me she says she is comfortable where she is. I also said I would like her to be the one to snuggle up to me in bed versus it always being me to initiate any contact. <p>The conversation was kind of circular but she again reaffirmed that she does not want a divorce and want to work things out. Unfortunately, she then said she feels like everything has to be on my terms. I said this is not the case but we have to recognize where each of us is coming from and find middle ground.<p>So where are we...IMHO we are still in the same place as before, but now there is some opening of communication. Will this continue and make a difference, I don't know. She called today and asked me to do the ironing (I'm actually better at it than her). I guess now that my daughter is taking her nap that is what I have do (what a fun afternoon).

Hi Onward, <p>If you can communicate and walk away without hate, you are making progress. Bring this to her attention - tell her " Hey, we differ in our opinions, but we didn't kill each other, we were expressing our opinions and we listened to each others point of veiw. That's progress."
You can say it better, this is just to illustrate. <p>It is progress, but it's also frustrating. When you talk, try to find someting at the end to agree on. Even if it is what day to date. End it with something you both can live with. You know enough now that you ought to be able to script the conversations you have and guide them for your own use. Use what you know. <p>Don't worry about the cell bills, and secrets. Someday she will get it. Just build love. Any way you can. When there is finally enough love built up, the rest will solve itself. <p>When she asked about the ironing, did you say " Hon, I really don't enjoy the ironing, but for you, I'll do it gladly." Use the chances you are given. <p>BTW, I feel that you are doing well, no one is perfect, just giving you something to think about. <p>SS

Next time she says you are being hurtful, ask her to provide specifics.<p>I think you are making some good baby steps. She is wanting to talk to you and now she is talking about her feelings and telling you what you need to do to fill her needs. I think this is a real chance to get in her walls and shine. I am sure conversation is high up on her list of EN's so take every chance you can to sit and talk. Talk about anything and everything. Try to get her to stop giving you generalistic comments and judgements. Ask her to be specific about how you can meet her need for affection not just how she is not letting you meet that need. Maybe you are not understanding exactly how she wants you to be affectionate. It is a good chance your ideas of affection are much different then hers. <p>As others say here, concentrate on the baby steps. Do not look for the big step because it may not come. If you look back through your posts here, you will see what large positive changes have occurred through baby steps over the past few months. Stay positive and keep up the good Plan A.

Onwardandup:<p>Unfortunately I have found where my H is posting...to your site. I wanted to find out more about your "story" and bumped into him. Sorry Dreamland! <p>I am so very sorry to hear that you and Mrs. Onwardandup have found yourselves in this very gloomy, foggy world of an A. I can relate to your story from your wife's perspective. I am smack dab in the middle of an affair (EA/PA) with my boss and can relate to ALL that your W is doing.
My comments to you regarding your wife's words and actions are these:

1. Understand that your wife has fallen in love with another man. Given the circumstances and nature of the situation, she is in a lot of pain and is very confused. The only person with whom she can talk about this with is you, and from the read of your threads, you are not creating an environment free from judgement and blame which allows her to do so. When she cries, she wants to open up to you but does not "trust" you with the information. <p>2. Guilt and Anger are inversely related. The greater your W's anger, the less her guilt; the more venom she directs at you,the less she directs at herself. This is why (in her eyes) YOU are to blame for all of this.<p>3. She is justifying her A and poor actions by your faults. The more you blame, judge or make her feel badly, the more justified she is with the A and OM. I tried many times to sabatoge my relationship with my H so that I could justify what I was doing with OM. I wanted him to hate me (which I am convinced is impossible for him to do) so that I could blame him (which I do not do! My stupidity...nothing he did). <p>4. Your W's A is out in the open. When first revealed, it was a shock to all - your W, OM and you. Time has passed and OM and W have had time to figure out how to make A "work" in current environment. Facts: Your W is smart. W does not want to loose her job. She knows, logically, that divorcing you would be bad for her and her daughter. BUT, she is in love with OM. You may want to think about the prospect of her playing both sides of the fence (EA and PA) so that she is able to keep her family AND her job in tact. <p>5. Why the focus on so much SF? Are you meeting her EN or yours? Does she really have a high Sex Drive or are you projecting this / reading between the lines? Was she reallly crying after sex because of the hurt she created, OR did she cry because she was only going the motions of fulfilling you? I have cried on my H's shoulders for the pain that I have caused all of us. I have cried in bed after sex because it was NOT something I really wanted to do....I was sexually committed to OM and not H. (I can't have sex both ways but some women can.)<p>I know too well the emotional roller coaster ride. On an intellectual level, I, as can your W, tell you all the reasons why my Marriage should be saved and why the OM should be kicked to the curb. Unfortuately, strong emotions get in the way and mess your mind all up. Your W probably figures out the logical solutions to this mess when she is with you (this is why she talks of the future) but changes her tune when she sees his greatness at the office or when he calls and romances her (why she comes home cold and distant).<p>Love your wife..dont blame her or judge her or demand of her. She needs your support to get through this. She has done the unthinkable to you and to HERSELF. <p>I hope this is well received. <p>What tangled webs we weave.<p>Mrs. Dreamland

Mrs. Dreamland - <p>Thank you for you comments. Some people on this site may attack you for the positions you state and the things that are happening in your marriage, I will not. I will respond to your insights and you can comment on what I have had to say. I will also pose you some questions and make some comments and you can choose if you want to reply, but consider my comments to both of you.<p>Mr. & Mrs Dreamland - <p>I consider Dreamland to be a someone who I share some of the same philosophies with and appreciate his support. I think it only fair to ask both of if you are comfortable in responding to me. I do not want to get in the way of any conversations you may have and you both should be comfortable in doing this. If you only want to direct your comments to my situation that is also fine.<p>Mrs. Dreamland (about your comments) - <p>1. I don't make a distinction between my WW beign in love with the OM or whatever form the relationship has taken. From my point of view the only salient point is that the relationship has come between us and as long as it exists we will not have the marriage that either of us wants.<p>I realize that my actions have prevented her from feeling safe with me. I have been trying to get better in this regard and will continue to try. We have major trust issues on both sides since the A is not the only thing that she has kept secret between us. In some sense she has to build trust with me because her actions and words do not match. Short of not bringing any subject up in a conversation I do not know how to create a safe environment. When she cries she seems to shut down all conversations and I can't get her to say anything. Any thoughts would be appreciated.<p>2. I agree with your assessment. Her anger seems to be a way to stop herself from introspection.<p>3. Same as #2.<p>4. Her career is one that allows her to get another job easily. As recent as January she was actively looking for another job. While there are many positive aspects of her job the one thing that makes her remain is the OM. She may not consciously realize this but I think she realizes it at some level. <p>She may make the decision to try and prolong both realtionships but that is a scenario I can not accept. I deserve to be in a whole relationship and I will not maintain something less for her comfort or for my daughter. I am not ready for this yet but will be at some point.<p>5. She has stated explicitly that she was unhappy with our sex life. She felt that we did not have SF enough and according to her I was not doing it the way she wanted. My sexual issues were related to how I felt about myself and lack of experience. She cried once when after SF because what we did and how it felt was what she always wanted and she said it made it feel like she was making a bad decision. When she cried this week she said it was because I was more expressive (talking about how I felt during sex) and that I said her name. I told her that I was always thinking these things during sex, but my insecurity had kept me from expressing it.<p>I do have a strong sex drive and this is something I have resolved along with my insecurity in individual counseling. Yes she may not be ready to be intimate with me and I am mostly the one initiating sex now.<p>IMHO affection is her biggest need (she includes admiration and me saying she looks good in this category). I guess it is hard to figure out how I can tell her how I feel about the way she looks without it seeming insincere (her thoughts abotu this are related to lackluster sex life in the past and her feeling I was rejecting her). It is also hard to be affectionate as she tells me I need to when she doesn't initiate anything. The best way I have found to do these things is through recreational companionship and not conversation.<p>I will address my questions to you Mrs. Dreamland in another post.

Mrs Dreamland - <p>I'll start with some simple questions:<p>1. How do you define love? Is love what is realy going on in an A? If it is then it must be fleeting, something that can be built and taken away. I would suggest that there is more to love than the emotional high you can get from being with someone. The love Dreamland has for you and the love I have for my wife is still there despite all of the hurt. We can recieve and deliver the emotional high if given the chance but the strenght of our love goes beyond this.<p>2. What do YOU plan to do? I read what you suggested that my WW might do and I wondered what you plan to do or are doing. If you don't have a plan then the time has come for you to start figuring out what to do with your life.<p>3. What things would make a difference to you? I realize you are different from my WW but it would be helpfull to know what could be done to help her get off the fence. I have phrased this question to you because I think knowing what would make a diference for you could help me figure out what would make a difference for my WW.<p>I guess that is enough for now. I can tell from your post that you feel the same confusion all of us do about the "tangled webs" we get ourselves into. I also beleive you know the different actions you can take, so I will not tell you what to do (you know what I would say anyway).

Onwardandup:<p>Whew! I do not want to talk about my own messy A in this forum but will dig deep (this is painful) to answer your questions. First I want to respond to your first message.<p>1. You made a point of saying that your W’s A is getting in the way of your relationship with your W. This is incorrect. Your W’s A is a symptom of your deteriorating relationship with your W. There are other BIGGER things that got in the way of your M before the A. Additionally, from the way this point read, your wife does not seem to be trustworthy...which is an entirely different problem altogether. But you said that when she cries, she shuts down communication. You asked for suggestions. When she cries, make sure you are giving her all of your attention. If you were reading, stop. If TV (yes, even soccer) is on, turn it off. Turn to her and hold her and instead of saying, "What's wrong?", "How can I help?", "What happened?" etc., try this: "I know this is extremely painful for you. If I were you, I would feel so very sad. I don't know how you manage to be so successful at work and here at home with all that is going on in your life. You have got a huge burden on your shoulders and I want you to know that I will be here for you regardless. I want to help you so that you will feel good again. I want you to shine like you did when we were first married. I dont like seeing you hurt like this. I love you with all of my heart." Try empathizing with her to get her to open up. See if this works in your favor?!?<p>You also mentioned that Affection (this does not mean sex) and Admiration are her top emotional needs. Men always think that Affection is foreplay...it is not. Women want Affection and want sex when they want sex. The two are different. [BTW, for a woman, good relationship = good sex, bad relationship = bad sex]. Some ideas for A&A are:
1. Call her during the day. Tell her you were thinking of her and wanted to say Hi and you love her.
2. Tell her she is pretty, attractive and make romantic remarks.
3. Be sympathetic to her.
4. Accept who she is.
5. Draw a bath for her when she comes home from work, light a candle and play soft music.
6. Write love notes to her and send her a homemade lovecard to the office.
7. Talk to her during lovemaking and afterwards. Express your desires openly, share yourself more fully with her; caress and hold her after lovemaking. Also, make lovemaking a new experience every time.
8. Be interested in her during the morning and at night - Turn off the TV and don't read.
9. Help with dinner dishes and clean the kitchen (assuming she cooked).
10. Be silly with her and say sweet little nothings.
11. Bring her flowers occasionally (I think roses are overrated. Bright Gerber Daisies are the Best!)
12. Hold her hand and kiss her on the cheek especially at unromantic times.
13. Express appreciation for the things she does (say the meal was good, appreciate the tidy home, thank her for what she does do).
14. Say nice things about her in front of others.
15. Spend quiet time with her, just sharing life.
Your W will know you are sincere about showing Affection and Admiration when you do / give these things without expecting anything in return. If you are consistent and free with this, she will "get it".<p>Now on to answering your questions (gag!):
1. I agree that my H loves me unconditionally, as you love your W. I know that my love for OM is insecure and based on how he makes me feel. However, the "fantasy" with the OM includes true and unconditional love in the equation. I hope that the fantasy is real.
2. My Plan?!?!?! OM comes with a very angry and vindictive wife, 4 kids, no proven protection for me, no real kind consideration for me AND YET I MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT ALL. Why? I lost my head, my standards, and my morals when I gave my heart to him. Doesn't make much sense does it? Slowly, I think I am seeing OM for what he truly is. A man married to his job and primarily concerned about his own well-being and happiness. Since I am the ultimate people pleaser, I aid in making sure he is happy at my expense. Finding resolution to all of this and defining a plan would be much easier if my heart was not so tormented.
3. What would make a difference to your W? Great question! I do not know what state your W is in or where their A is at. But I do know that for her to have entered an A, she must have been very taken with OM. He has romanced her. Has been very passionate with her. Made her feel wonderful again. She probably feels the best (prettiest, most spirited, most special, the greatest) when she is with him. This may not all be reality, but for her, it is. She knows what life has been like with you...maybe stale, no fun, stressed, not much attention. Although she knows logically she needs to remain in her marriage, she compares the two of you and sees that if she chooses you, she will be giving up all of these wonderful things that (she thinks) only he can give her. So, IMHO, that is what you can give her....don't make her choose between what you were and what he is. Allow her to choose between what you are and what he is. Maybe too he is starting to sour a bit. He has a lot of strikes against him...several As, D, potential step kids, XW, 15 years older.<p>I wish you success, and I wish your W a quick exit from the fog. I am afraid this will be difficult if she is seeing him everyday. This is so very difficult. <p>Mrs. Dreamland

Onwardandup,<p>Thanks for your concern and your opinions. I do not think my WW said anything that I did not already know.<p>I have quite a bit of work ahead of me. I have been waiting for a good sign and for the strength to kick up this Plan A a notch. I see from my conversations with my wife and these posts a clear cry for help. Through her third person post with you, she has clearly described her feelings and laid out like a map what I should do.<p>I am declaring war on the OM. He had better look out because I am charging through. I have got to get my thoughts together and that may take a few days. This is going to be fun. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

oops. Hit edit instead of post.

Today may have been the best day so far.<p>WW had her individual counseling session today (I did not ask about what went on...I have gotten the message not to ask about it). She was much more affectionate today and asked me if I was mad at her...she was not sure of my affection. I said no, I'm just not used to this from you. <p>We went out together and bought things for new flower beds in the yard. Later she really initiated SF. She just approached me and said she wanted to be with me (I can't remember the last time she did this). <p>We then worked outside in the yard and she wanted us to work on the same thing together. It was nice that she didn't resort to the "I want to do it myself routine".<p>Her whole tone was different today. She seemed to be less uptight and stressed. She talked favorably about my family. She followed me wherever I went. For the first time in a long time I felt like we were working together.<p>Perhaps the biggest thing was her work schedule. She had hidden this from me for months so that I could not tell when she was working with OM. Today she brought home the schedule for next month and put it on the bulletin board where it had been in the past. I didn't say anything because it would be hard to acknowledge without pointing out the secrecy over the last month (perhaps a LB). If nothing else I have told her in the past how I felt about this and I take it as a good sign that she took the initiative.<p>I still refuse to get my hopes up, but the trend continues in the right direction.<p>For everyone that has given me support and advice over the last few months THANK YOU. I don’t think I could have gotten myself over the hurdle let alone implement a decent Plan A without all the wonderful people at marriage builders. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Bravo O&W! This is GREAT to hear. It sounds as if she will be VERY receptive to you fulfilling her EN's (you were concerned that your efforts would go unnoticed). I am so glad that she is concentrating on your EN's as well (i gathered from your post). I hope this is the turning of a new leaf.<p>Great news...and best wishes.<p>Mrs. Dreamland

Mrs. Dreamland - <p>Thank you for your support. I am happy inside that there is some progress, but I will not get myself to excited (I don't want to fall too hard yet).<p>Yes she does recognize my efforts, but the thing that hangs over me is the continued EA contact. For the most part I never mention it (except in counsleing last week). I guess she will decide to end it and talk to me about it in her own time. The other alternative is that the contact (non-work related) will continue for till I or the marriage counselor makes a point about it. As far as I am concerned I am not going to be the one to bring it up in the near future. It feels like I am putting my head in the sand, but I think she is the one who needs to work it our without pressure from me.<p>One last thing, remember there are plenty of people here that are willing to listen to you and offer insight when if you need it (yes some might flame you, but they are just angry). On the other hand feel free to just lurk and add your thoughts when you feel like it.

Hi Onward, <p>When I first started reading your threads, It looked like she wanted some excuse to come back to you. You gave it to her. She is coming back. <p>From what I have seen, A's often have a life of their own. But it is usually a short life. Then it dies. It would be nice if she would quit and get anothe job without contact. Someday she will probably think of this herself. Or someday she may take suggestions. She isn't there yet. Just keep building Love in her LB$. <p>I would probably thank her for posting the work scedule. Thank her whenever she gives you some hope for recovery. Tell her how much it enables you to continue to have a good attitude. She needs to know (IMHO) However, you know her best, we just make suggestions. <p>Remember that you ( sorry to say this again) will still have down days. But you will come back up. YOU WILL COME BACK UP. <p>You are right to keep your expections low, always good to get more than you expect. Always hutrs to get less. <p>I'm kind of proud of you. But then, you are getting high grades in school so I should expect you would do well. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Keep it up. <p>SS<p>[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Onwardandup,<p>This is real good news, but please still guard your feelings. Do not expect this to be the end of it all. Keep your strength. You know how these things go up and down. Proceed with cautious optimism.

Well counseling session #4 and still more little progress. We talked more openly during the session and it wasn't at all like last week. <p>WW related that her needs for affection and admiration were still not being met. I was happy that she relayed this and I talked about how I was trying but that at times she would not let me meet these needs. I talked about how it would be better if she could let me know when I'm not doing enough or what is working.<p>The counselor tried to get us to state if we were feeling better about the relationship and WW said yes and no. She stated that she is still having a problem relating to me and that it is difficult to accept me trying to meet her needs.<p>I brough up the fact that her posting the schedule was important to me and I appreciated it. She kind of blew it off and said it was not a big thing. After a little prodding by the counselor she said that in fact she was hiding it on purpose and that this was to aimed at making me angry. This is the first time she has recognized any of her actions in creating the current situation. I'm happy she is continuing to open up a little at a time.<p>So as everyone has said, it will probably be a lot of little baby steps for a while. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]