GREAT NEWS!!<p>I am happy for you. It is smart that you are protecting your feelings. Please try to remember that undoubtably, she will talk to him again, so prepare yourself for this so that it does not get you down. She will not give the OM up that fast, it will just slowly fade.<p>Now that you mention it, recreational companionship makes a big difference with my WW too. I guess it is a time where you can loose yourself in the moment and enjoy each other.<p>It is good that you two are going on a date. Dates make a big difference.<p>Keep up the good work.

Well, things are still going better.<p>I planned a great date at a place where she had been mentioning for years that she wanted to go. She called from work and said she was going to be late, I started to LB about her not caring about our going out but stoped. I knew she was upset and not happy about having to work late.<p>I called and moved our reservation back so we could still go. On the drive I could tell she was still unhappy so I only offered a little small talk to ease the tension. We ended up having a great dinner (a little expensive) but it was a good time together. No relationship talk, but just a relaxed time for us without our daughter.<p>At home last night when we were in bed her co-worker who had a previous relationship with the OM called. She wanted to talk to WW and find out how our dinner went. After WW got off the phone we talked about how her co-worker was still interested in OM and that she was trying to find out how we were doing. I said "She is checking up on you becasue she knows you are in her territory with the OM". I also said "she has probably been watching and knows that the two of you have been together". WW agreed with what I said and we talked a little about her work situation. I stayed away from any direct questions about the OM or her getting a new job. It was very difficult because I wanted to get her talk, but I know if I push it doesn't work. At one point she stated "I don't know why she (co-worker) is concerned about me and OM, I don't want him". <p>While we were out WW also got a beep on her cell phone letting her know there was a message I'm sure from OM), but she didn't check the message. This morning she didn't check the message again. I think this is positive since I gave her the opportunity to check her messages on the cell phone.<p>WW also wanted me to hold her this morning and then initiated SF. At least she is now wanting me to meet these needs for her. Since this was a problem in our marriage, I'm glad we are at least getting past that one barrier. I general, the signs still seem positive, but I know there is a long way to go. I am still trying to set up marriage counseling with a new counselor and she seems very interested in trying counseling again.

You are doing a great job!!!<p>All of the burden on making our marriages work is heavily dependent upon doing Plan A from the heart (with unconditional love) and being the best and most positive we can. I have noticed myself how important it is never to mention the OM unless she brings it up. It makes her feel safe.<p>Good job on the date. Keep it up. I just bought some tickets for the Rolling Stones concert in October for my WW and I. I told her about the date and I am keeping what we are doing a secret. She loves this. It makes her feel safe that I am planning things for the future with her in mind.<p>I wish my wife would give me some SF, but I will wait until it is time. We cuddle alot and it is sure difficult to hold back when we are cuddling in bed at night. It is hard to fall asleep, but I know it is making a difference, and it is important for her to know I can cuddle with her and not need to have sex.<p>Good luck, the closer you two get the more she will start opening up. Be patient, and plan some more dates. They are the life blood of a relationship.

When you first started posting, I was worried about you being able to run your plan A. You were angry much of the time and even though it looked like your wife was showing signs of choosing you over OM, you could have driven her away. <p>At this point you should be happy with your efforts. I believe she will be yours if you continue to live what you have learned. <p>May I make some observations about things that I have learned in the 4 months I have been trying to live MP principals. <p>1. You will mess up some days. But the more careful you are, and the more you review the material, the less problems you have. <p>2. You can defuse some of the mistakes by talking about it before hand. " W, I am trying to change my life, it will be slow, if I mess up, please talk to me about it instead of holding it against me and getting angry." That is the short version, When I had this talk with my wife, she could already tell that I was trying so she agreed to work on it with me. It ended up being a long talk and was very good for us. <p>3. Thank her when she does talk about it, instead of getting defensive. <p>4. SHE will make mistakes also, don't start feeling like " well, with all I have done, this is the LAST STRAW." Give her some room, ( like you are already doing) and let her come back every time. <p>5. The big problem is when you both make mistakes at the same time. Be willing to ask for forgiveness even when it is not your fault. It will make things better again if you are willing to be humble even when you should not have to. ( which pretty much describes how you have been acting the last few weeks anyway.) <p>6. This is long term, you will need to review this stuff every year, even after you think things are back to normal. If not, you may someday find that your marriage is in trouble again. <p>Anyone can fly off the handle, rant and rave, and file for D. It takes a real man to make things work out even after all your W has done. It feels pretty good, doesn't it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I wish you luck but find that much of the time we make our own luck. I think you are doing a good job making yours. <p>SS

WW is planning on going out of town for the weekend to see a friend. I think I realy surprised her by deciding to take our daughter and go out of town myself. I am going to visit some friends in D.C. for the weekend and I even called SIL and offered to meet her so she could see her niece.<p>Things still seem on on a positive trend, no major breakthoughs, but WW's fog is definitely not so think at all. She continues to talk about the future, but also about the future of her job and working with the OM. I am staying away from the subject and just let her talk for now.<p>Even though she is going away for the weekend, she keeps making the following comments. "I am going to miss both of you", "It is strange to think that the two of you are leaving". I stated "Well, you are going out of town, we are just going to take the opportunity to do something fun". She replied "I just expected you to be at home, and "it seems wierd to think that you will not be there". Oh well, I will be at my friend's house (HJL on the MB forum) so I can still check-in (yes, I have to at least once a day).

Onwardandup,<p>Have not heard from you in a while. Are you O.K. Are you out there? I hope things are getting better for you.

Dreamland - <p>I have just been too busy to spend much time doing anything (including posting). Part of the busy relates to the WORLD CUP SOCCER which is my favorite sport.<p>I have read your most recent thread and I think you have the right idea. For me things started getting better once I divorced myself from the A and the OM. I no longer bring it up and if my WW brings it up I don't say too much. I realize this is hard and not talking about it doesn't make it go away. The same thing goes for the EN questionaire, don't try and force a realionship conversation when she isn't ready.<p>At the end of the day it is a lot easier to survive when you just do what you think is right (plan A) and don't expect anyhting in return (remember the unconditional love). I have been busy because I have increased my plan A and when I am not watching my daughter, I have done an incredible number of projects and spent time with my WW...with no strings.<p>As for my situation it is back in a postive trend. We went to a new marriage counselor last week (she didn't like the first one). Saddly for her, this counselor was even more aggressive in suggesting she end the A and must eventually get a new job. I played my new role and stated "I'm OK if we talk about other issues first and leave the A and OM till after we have sorted out some of the other issues". WW agreed to continue seeing this counselor and we are going agian tommorrow night. I even was able to make light of the fact that the counselor got confused and called me by the OM's name [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>The weekend was OK and my WW initiated (or at least told me to initiate) SF on Sunday after I spent the entire day digging a 50 foot trench to burry a pipe from the downspout of a house gutters (something she really wanted done).<p>This morning I took our daughter to visit WW at work (she asked me to visit and OM is out of town). Later in the afternoon she called from work and actually got emotional and stated that she didn't want a divorce. She stated that she wanted to work things out and was going to try her hardest to make it work. I didn't push the relationship talk and just told her I wanted things to work out also (I think this no-pushing is very important). <p>I know this all sounds good, but I also realize actions are more important than words. I checked her cell phone tonight and saw she called OM (he is out of town for the week) after I visited in the morning but before she called in the afternoon.<p>I know I still have a long way to go, but at least there is hope and some positive signals.<p>To answer your other questions....She kicked me out of the room last week for one night because I talked to my friends about the situation (I guess this information may have helped you)....I think she returns from her trips in a bad mood becasue she sees that I have had a good time without her. In this last case she was unhappy that I could go away with our daughter and still have fun while chasing a 18 mo. old "monkey".

Some good positive signs. I am happy for you. I hope both of our WW continue to loose their feelings for the OM's. I am not sure now how much in the past three months my WW has lost feelings for OM. I am now begining to see that you have got to take every positive sign with two grains of salt. The feelings our WW's have for the OM seem to be up and down like a roller coaster as well.<p>I am glad to see that you sound very good. Part two of the Plan A (yourself) seems to be working great. You are right about the unconditional love. I have got to keep coming back to this.<p>It is good to here you post again. I hope you stay in touch with us here at the forum. It is great to have a support group, and I am thankful you are out there to help me.

Dreamland - <p>Just a quick thought on feeling good. The day I started to feel better was the day when I made the appointment to see someone about antidepressents. This step made all the difference, because in my mind I realized I could take control of my life and how I was feeling. I started taking Effexor but since I immediately started feeling better I never increased the dosage and I only take 1/2 of the normal dose.<p>I realize antidepressents aren't for everyone and in my case I don't think they were the key to the change in my attitude. The key to feeling better was the act of taking control of my life. I also have benefited greatly from my individual counseling. Church is also helpfull.<p>I only make these observations because they may help you figure out what it is that you could do to turn the corner on feeling better. If you can find some way to assert control over your life I think it would make all the difference in the world. At the end of the day it is not our WWs that make us feel bad but our reactions and we can choose what these reactions are.

So here it is...Back in the doghouse again. We went to counseling again on Tuesday and it went well. I could actually think she was starting to engage and was interested in talking about what I could do to improve the marriage. I refuse to be optimistic and had thus prepared myself for something bad.<p>So last night she came home in a bad mood and asked if I had talked about everything with my father and sister (this was a conversation I had over a month ago when all was bleak). I stated yes and she completly blew-up. She screamed and raved and was out of control in front of our daughter. I can understand why she is upset (I divulged personal information about her...not the A), but my intentions were purely good. I talked to my family about the things I had done wrong in the marriage so that they wouldn't look negativley on WW. The other information she was upset about was just part of the story and I now know I should have never said it. Unfortunatly, I did not know the depth of her feelings about this and to me the information was not central to the story I was telling. I know I was trying to do the right thing (and succeeded) becasue my sister came over and appologized to WW after I talked to her.<p>After she had her explosion she asked me to leave and I went to my fathers for the evening. She never called, so I called and went home. I was again exiled from the bedroom. This morning she still will not talk to me. The only thing she has said was in reference to my individual counseling "You better talk about this in counseling becasue I don't know if I can ever forgive you".<p>Right now she has asked me to go in my office at home so she doesn't have to see me. My only plan is to lay low until she decides to bring it up. If all is quiet for a couple of days I may bring it up. I did appologize after her blow-up so I'm not sure what she expects from me. It sucks constantly being accused of being the bad guy. In this case I was trying to make people not be mad at her and expose my flaws. If nothing else I can (cross my fingers) say there is nothing else I can think of that she could blame on me.

I am sorry for the events and for the downward turn. I unfortunately probably can't help too much now. I am feeling miserable right now and I can't post this on the main forum anymore. I feel like giving it all up. I can't get motivated to do anything. I have to get my wife a present for my WW's birthday on Friday and I do not have the energy to get out of my office chair. It is almost too late. I am sorry I do not have much to say. I will try again a little later. Maybe I need to punch myself in the face.

Dream, suck it up and get her something. This is a big chance to make deposits in her bank. Birthdays are special to women. Show her she is special to you you even if you are having a hard time feeling like she is.<p>There are three kinds of gifts, thoughtful gifts ( oh, how nice.) Expensive gifts ( you shouldn't have) and Thoughtful Expensive gifts ( Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.... How did you ever manage it. )
Think on her a little bit, it should come to you. <p>If you have to take a half a day off work tomorrow to get it done, then DO IT. ( my eyebrows are raised and I am looking at you like "are you getting this." ) And, BTW Dream, I think you have a good chance of making it work too, but we need a little more time to see. <p>
Onward, this kind of stuff will go on all your married life. ( 25 years for me) You can get through this like you have the other ones. (edit, Ok, they are not near as bad as they used to be, nor as often now that I have found MB.) <p>The big thing is not to get tired of her ranting and give it back to her. Just be meek and mild and should she ever call you on your meekness, just say "Hon, I know it's my fault, I'm trying to repent." or whatever your words for that would be. <p>I would think in between the blowups, you will see steady progress. Thanks for the update, I wondered how you are getting along. <p>Dream, really, try the B-day present. Don't quit yet. <p>SS<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

I am feeling a little better now. Maybe I just need to quit skipping meals. I have also noticed that if I drink a couple (or four) beers at night, I am depressed during the day. I should quit that too. Sorry for the vent post and sorry for stealing some of your air time here.
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Still Seeking,
I am planning to take half of the day off to get her a gift. I have a picked out a great gift, I just have to go get it. It is going to be tough to find. This will be a wow, I can't believe you remembered gift.
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Onwardandup,
Stick with it. The A will die. Odds are in our favor substantially. Try not to expect anything at all out of her until the A is completely dead. Remember the infatuation hormones take about a full two years from the start of the A to end provided the other guy does not LB himself to death. This is my hope. <p>However, right now my wife is meeting with her boss and she will be going back to work and she will be working quite a bit under the OM (she briefly told me this in a break in her meeting so I am not sure for now). That really sucks, but I still have got the odds in my favor. WW wants me to leave and wants a D and has told me this a few times this week in a few more words than this. I am going to leave in my own time. When I ask her though if she really wants me to leave and D her she says no. Do not understand that.<p>Try to concentrate on the good things again and why you married her. This helps me sometimes.

Hey Dream, ( sorry On, for using your space)
When she gets it, be prepared for a "on the surface" bad reaction. If she is deep in the fog, she won't want to acknoledge that you can do something right so sometims they appear to be angry ( they make up a reason.) <p>If she goes this way, remember that you still get the points ( they keep score in their head of everything, you should know by now.) You will still get the points, even if she doesn't act like it. <p>The rest sounds like standard fog (yes/no on D) <p>Keep it up Dream, keep it up. See if you can hold out a little longer. <p>SS<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Well after my last post I went outside and did some more projects the WW had wanted me to do. After a couple of hours she came out and watched me. Eventually I went over and asked if she wanted to talk. I sucked it up and told her how sorry, inconsiderate, stupid, etc. I am and have been. I don't know if any of it sank in, but she seemed better after that. She actually made dinner and started to talk to me. <p>One thing I did tell her in the coversation related to our joint counseling. We were asked to each do something to improve the marriage before coming back. I told her that I was going to quit smoking since this was something that she realy does not like. Her reaction was "I can't think about doing anything for the marriage right now". I know this is not going to be easy, but it will have a big impact and it goes well with Plan A since it is also for me. Wish me luck over the next few weeks. <p>After dinner she asked if it would be OK to invite our new neighbors over for drinks tomorrow night. This seems bizzare to me. If things are so bad at home why would you want to invite total strangers over???? Of course, I told her this would be fine with me.<p>One thing that is strange that I have noticed is that she now calls me by first name instead of honey or something like that (this has been the case for a while). I guess that is part of her keeping the attachment limited. I don't know but it would seem strange to me if I tried to call my WW by her name.<p>Still Seeking - <p>You are right about not letting it get to you. When she gets angry, I either answer and talk calmly or find a way to end the conversation before it gets out of hand. In some ways being associated with MB has helped me to not let what she says get to me.<p>I will have to say that I have never seen her angry or in a state of rage like last night ever before. I did call her sister just to know if she had any insight into how I should act. She stated that she had not heard her sister so upset ever before. I guess what I did was a big granddaddy of of a mistake. The only positive of it may be that she eventually starts to get over "the information" which she has been holding inside for many years. Before anyone asks...I will not mention the nature of the "information" here, but it is one of those things that different people react to in thier own manner. I talked about it because I did not consider the gravity with which she viewed the information.<p>Dreamland - <p>Yes, get the gift but be prepared for a less than enthusiastic thank you. Like Still Seeking said the outward reaction is not the same as what is happening inside.<p>I would also caution you about skipping meals and a few beers. I get into this pattern (especially skipping meals) and it has caused me to loose 20+ pounds (which I did not need to loose). I now make sure I get all my meals and snacks and my weight is slowly coming back. I really haven't had the urge for any alcohol lately, but when I do decide to drink I usually regret it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think drinking is bad but you need to watch it when you are feeling down or not eating all you should be. I don't want to sound like I'm preaching, you know what your limits are and what is right for you. I only offer my comments, since I've felt some of the same effects.<p>I'm still as confused as ever about what you WW is saying. It seems to me that she wants you to make the decision for her. My WW also expected me to leave or file for a D. When she finally realized that I wasn't it started to sink in that the decision was going to fall to her. With that realization she has started to make her slow progress. <p>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@<p>One last thought. For anyone reading this please watch the USA soccer match tomorrow morning(6/14). I have a passion for soccer ever since I spent time in Brazil and you will not be disapointed. (yes this is one small way I keep my sanity...I refuse to let the avalanch of events in my life keep me from enjoying a few things). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello, O. Sorry I have been out of touch for a while. How are you?

Onward, <p>It has been 4 1/2 months for me since I found MB. Things are going pretty good for us. ( OK, really good.) We do not have an A to magnify our problems, but I was really good at Love Busting and had driven my wife away. When I first started plan A I just quit love busting because that was the worst problem for us. I asked my wife to talk to me about how I could improve and she just said "It's too painful for me to talk about, so no, I can't help you." That was it. <p>I asked her if I could explain what I was attempting to do and she said I could. So I took a short time and explained my plan. I told her the end result was for me to correct my faults. She was meeting many of my needs even then, but SF, admiration, conversation and affection had fallen off because it's hard for a women to keep those up when she dislikes the person she has to do them with. <p>I told her there would be times when I would slip up, and that I would try to just walk away for a while and come back when I could talk without getting angry. Sometimes she will tell me to walk - and I do. When I come back, I realize every time that if things were handled better, and if we communicated better, many of the problems would cease to exist, and many have gone away. Now, 4 months later, we talk about most things when they happen, and we are able to reach POJA on almost everything right then. Very few do we have to hold and do later. We are falling back in love. I asked for a status report last week, and she said she looks forward to me coming home, that her heart leaps when I walk into the room, that she is in love again. <p>All DR Harley has done is what many others do (Steven Covey comes to mind with 7 Habits) He has discovered universal principals that always work, and written them down in a way we can understand and work with them. Of course, it takes talent to recognize them and present them in a useful way. I couldn't have done what he has done, but I can see it for what it is. <p>What's the point?
(long )
She will talk to me now, we have had some very good talks. We have done the needs questionnaire , and the LB one. My plan is much better than in the beginning, and she is helping me all she can, and she has her own plan for meeting my needs. <p>One of the key things was the first real talk we had where she would discuss her feelings too. After about 1 1/2 months, I asked her if she was ready to talk - really I wanted to have some idea if she would help me ( something you and Dream are waiting to hear from your wives.) I told her my plan and what I needed from her. Now remember, my major needs were not being met either, I didn't know how long this would take, but I estimated 1 to 2 years. What I needed from her was to give feedback, and not walk when I slipped up, but talk to me about her feelings. She agreed with reservations. She said she felt she was going out on a limb to open up to me, but she would try it and wanted the right to back out if it got to bad emotionally. <p>( She has since told me, she didn't think I could do it, and that it would be a waste of time. )
So we had the talk and she agreed to listen to me, and trouble shoot my progress. Once or twice a week, we would talk about our interaction. I began to understand the things about her that I used to get angry about and tell her why, in non judgmental, non threatening way. She found I could discuss things without getting angry and she began to open up more and more. <p>The short version is this.<p>1. I told her I was going to change, and what exactly would change.
2. I told her I needed her feedback in the form of conversation to make it work.
3. I gave her permission to walk away from it if it was too hard, or if she felt it wasn't working.
4. the response in just 4 1/2 months has been amazing. <p>So if you two have not had the conversation with your wives yet, you should. It doesn't have to be a marriage building talk. You just need to let them know that you are attempting some life changing improvements in your life and need her feedback to make it work. You don't need to tell them you are trying to meet their needs (yet.) You can say you are learning how to interact with people in a more friendly, caring way ( after all, what we learn applies to everyone we meet in some ways) You can explain that you are learning how to communicate without anger and disrespect - and that they can be a big help judging your progress. <p>Part of the talk with my W was telling her that I knew I was human, and would not be able to be perfect at it. I asked her to be willing to talk about my mistakes instead of withdrawing and giving up on me. At first, this was very hard for her. But she has explained that after she realized it was the real thing, that I was serious, she wanted very badly to help me, and was willing, even though she was still afraid of it not working. <p>Onward, you could put it all in a letter if she won't talk. You don't have to say you are trying to save your marriage, you can just say you have realized many of your faults, and are working to eliminate them. If there are things you know she has big problems with (smoking, not spending time with loved ones, making school too important etc. ) you can list them and talk a little about each of them. You could appoligize again - and take the time to make it really good. <p>You both have already have this talk in one form or another. What I am suggesting that is different is that you explain it so it seems she is helping you to overcome your faults ( hint, the ones she hates the most) and that it doesn't affect the marriage or her. <p>It seems to be less threatening to them, and they don't have a reason to say no. It gets the same results as if they agreed to save marriage - they invest themselves in saving you, and it saves M too.
All the conversations you have builds LB$ deposits for both of you, it becomes enjoyable for both of you, it works into lots more. <p>I always seem to go really long, but I hope I have given you a different angle that may help. <p>SS

Still Seeking - <p>Thank you for the perspective. I think you are right on target about the communication needs. As you noted several posts/weeks/days ago...the timing is all a blur, once I have gotten away from angry outbusts/feelings things have improved considerably. I do have conversations with my WW (still mostly me talking) but I have noticed that she is listening now. <p>I think the conversation you describe is right on target, I just need to wait till the current crisis fades.<p>**********************************<p>As for a new update...<p>WW has continued to lighten-up and it seems like I have again avoided burning the bridges. Other than my second/third appology yesterday I have not brought up the topic again and neither has she.<p>We had the new neighbors over tonight... what was supposed to be a 1 hour visit turned into almost 4 hours. In general we had a good time so I think it was OK. After they left, WW asked me if I was going to bed. I asked "where should I go to bed?", she stated "I'm not done punishing you yet". I told her "it was OK and I would sleep on the couch or in the spare bedroom". We flirted some and were affectionate and I could tell she enjoyed this.<p>In general it is all very confusing. At least as far as I am concerned things are better. I have let go of any expectations so the daily up and downs I take in stride. I have also stopped what was a pursuit of a wife that was no longer in a "relationship" with me. This was hard but the change was based on acknowledging what she perceieved wrong with our relationship versus my issues. Lastly, my Plan A has a strong component that is about me. I am doing things for my own good and they will make me a better person even if my WW fails to see this.

Well not the best Fathers day I have ever had.<p>In reality it was proably the worst. We spent Saturday together and had a reasonable time but things are still on edge. I have heard a few times that I am on her s*** list. At least I was invited back into the bedroom on Saturday night. She did ask me if I had talked to anyone else other than the people I have told her about. Luckily I have not talked to anyone else and I can't think of any other reason for her to get mad at me (on the other hand, I'm sure she could find one!). <p>As for Fathers day, I got a card from her and a card from my daughter that WW also bought. She got me a present (but she slipped away at the mall while we were out on Saturday to get it). So not much thought there, but she could have blown it off completely.<p>She didn't show any real affection today and she went out shopping??. I checked her cell phone and she called OM and he called her while she was out. The time period she was out was rather long so I have my suspicions. You would have thought that she could not call him on fathers day at the very least. I'm not really mad, but just frustrated that I have to keep putting up with this. I will continue on with my Plan A, what else is there to do...<p>My Father came over for dinner and that went well. At least it should show her that he has no bad feelings and is not uncomfortable being around.<p>So ends another week of the roller-coaster (some up, some down, and at the end no idea if the ride will ever end and if it does what where it will stop).<p>Dreamland - <p>How did WW's birthday and Father's Day go?????

Hey Onwardandup. I am sorry that you did not have a good father's day.<p>I had quite a long post typed up late saturday night on your thread, but before I could post it my whole computer locked up. I lost everything. Frustrated, I went to sleep.<p>I CAN NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOUR WW SAID TO YOU!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] What does she think she is punishing you for. For cheating on her, for lying, for having PA/EA with someone else, for treating her like crap, for kicking her out of your room, for being extremely cruel and emotionally abusive, OH WAIT, that was her that did that!!! Everything you did was honest, loving, caring, and trying to keep the marriage together. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] When will these WW's learn. I am sorry I am angry about how she treated you, but that really would make me mad. You are strong for not showing or getting angry here.<p>When you say you have stopped pursuing your wife, what do you mean? The mind set I am trying to maintain is that I no longer have a wife. I used to have just a roomate, then I had a good friend, now I think this weekend might have knocked me into the best friend status (I hope). I am slowly learning how to meet her emotional needs. I can see how she does not allow me to meet some of these needs. I think her greatest need is attention in the form of conversation and second is conversation. I am going to start a thread on emotional needs.<p>How is your daughter doing by the way? She will be two in a few months? She talk alot? <p>About father's day. Long before father's day, I prepared myself for the fact that my WW would not spend too much effort trying to make this real special. I also determined that Father's day to me was almost nothing about my wife, but all about my children. So, I spent most of the day just having fun with my kids. It was a very special day for me, best father's day of my life. My wife even bought me a very thoughtfull gift (alarm clock that also was a weather forcaster with barometric preasure, indoor and outdoor humidity and temp-real cool [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] ). Then I went to my dads and we had some hamburgers.<p>You said your wife is not being affection with you. My wife is not either. She is guarding her self from me. I wish she would open up, it has been a long time since she was affectionate.<p>Keep up your good work. Have you solidified a time frame for Plan A yet. I think she is not ready for a Plan B, but I believe you are stong enough and in a right frame of mind for a Plan B. She probably needs to see a little more good in you in Plan A. I especially am concerned about her punishing comment. Is this all about you telling family?