It think that as long as she does not feel bad about having sex the next day, it is a big help for you especially if SF is high on her EN list. IMHO: Since, however, women typically require emotional bond for SF, save the SF for a good day you have with your WW.

I guess the biggest fear I have is that my WW will seek SF elsewhere (which I believe she has) instead of at home. I know this is another case of not being able to impact what she is doing but I think about it none the less. Knowing that for her it increases attachnment, I don't want her relationship with the OM to get stronger. Also since she is not allowing me to provide communication and that is a one of her top needs, and since I have an issue with school and financial support I just feel like there isn't a whole lot left to meet. I can certainly work on the other needs, but I believe you should try hardest on the important ones. <p>I know at the end of the day it is her decision about what she wants to do and who she will allow to meet her needs. I just wonder that if I don't get the chance to meet important ones that my chances are diminished. I have read about others who can do a good plan A even when seperated so I guess there is hope. Just sometimes it is hard to convince yourself of this. I think the unconditional love is the best way to keep going. At least from that perspective you don't get hung up on the impact you are having, instead you are focused on giving your love in any way it will be taken (if at all).

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also since she is not allowing me to provide communication and that is a one of her top needs, and since I have an issue with school and financial support I just feel like there isn't a whole lot left to meet. I can certainly work on the other needs, but I believe you should try hardest on the important ones. <hr></blockquote><p>You can still meet needs that they tell you they don't want met. ( Well, SF would be hard, but conversation would still work.) <p>Do you still date? If so what do you talk about ? One of my W's favorite things when we were newly married (read "poor)" was window shopping. We used to hold hands and walk down the mall. Are there any of those things you could still do? <p>Many BS's have reported that they can bring up stories about things when times were good. Go to a spot that has good memories and play the remember game. "Remember when we . . . . .and you did this . . . . . . .and I said that . . . . . ."<p>Instead of thinking " I can't meet this one, and she won't let me meet that one," figure out what you CAN do and spend time thinking about that. Use your energy for positive thought. " I can do this, and I could try that." <p>All of them won't work, and she may say no to some. When that happens, just try something else. <p>Think about it for a while, things will come to you. <p>About school and F support -
at one time you mentioned getting a part time job. Did you discuss it with her? What did she say? Are you still thinking about it? <p>There is good and bad with that. F support is better but time to spend with her is less. And right now, you need as much time with her as she will let you spend. <p> Plan A
Remember, plan A won't stop the A.
What does it do? Well, when she talks to OM, (early in the A ) he is always happy, he is positive, he doesn't LB, he makes her happy, smiles at her makes her feel good about herself. <p>Plan A does this for (if you do it right ) you. It makes you into a happier, more positive, caring, and safe person. Someone that is always happy to see her, one that smiles at her, one she feels good being around. Then when the A gets old, and OM starts to LB she says " I would rather have H, he is a better person than OM, he makes me feel good. What was I thinking? "<p>So your homework for while she is gone is to figure out what will do this for her and then start doing it. Practice before she comes home. Give yourself acting lessons. It will be more natural after a while. You can come here to unload your real feelings when you need to. <p>When she comes home you need to be there to say " I missed you, feels good to have you home." or your version of that. You need to smile, be positive, tell her you hope she had a great time, that she deserved it. No matter what you feel, or think, or suspect, you need to do that. You need to out OM the OM. <p>Start thinking of positive things you can try, and write them down in your journal. Things will come to you from what you hear on the radio, what you see on TV, others on this forum. Make notes.
WORK THAT PLAN A.
GO MAN GO. (you should be smiling by now.) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
<p>You and Dreamland have a good thing going, kind of like Spacecase and 2long. Keep it up. <p>Look at the thousands of people that made it work, remember that you can too. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I like still seeking's ideas. Take her out on a date, that will force her to talk to you. Will she let you do that. You could even try movies at first and then go to the long dinners with apetizers and do not skip dessert.<p>Think of what you guys did when you where dating and do these things. I think most of the marriages suffer because we stop dating. I can remember the best times my WW and I had after D-day is when I took her out at least once a week and got a baby sitter.

Nothing realy new. WW called twice yesterday to talk (although she actually didn't talk much). The one thing she is most interested in is what am I doing, where have I been, and with who. She called again this morning, so I guess these are all positive signs.<p>Thanks again for all the good advice and support. This few days are truely helping to recharge my batteries, along with the things that everyone has suggested. <p>I have a friend coming into town today for the weekend so I should be able to have some fun. Interestingly, he has been separated for 11 mo. and is the WS. I wonder what great insights he has into all this crap we are all going through.

I am glad you are feeling better. I think I am beginning to feel good myself. I went to see Star Wars Episode II last night with family and a couple of kids in the neighborhood. Kids are too young to sit through the whole thing (2 hours and 20 minutes), but it was fun anyway. My WW actually watched the 2 yr old while I watched the movie with the sleeping baby. This was very nice of her.<p>I am beginning to put hours to how long I feel good on a given day. Yesterday about 5 to 8 hours. Today hopefully more. <p>This whole unconditional love thing has helped me tremendously. It takes a load off my mind and heart. It makes me feel better about love and romance.<p>About your wife being inquisitive about your what you are doing. Mine is too. I think because she had an affair she thinks that I will too. She is very jeleous of a girl at work. I really do not like her, but it is fun to watch her squirm a little about it. It makes me feel good to know she really does care. If I am not around the phone to answer her call she wants to know where I was. I like any attention I can get.<p>I am very interested in your friends perspective on all of this. There are not many WS's which respond here. I do not blame then either because when they do, they get hammered by all of the BS's. So please post what you find out.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Nothing really new. WW called twice yesterday to talk (although she actually didn't talk much). The one thing she is most interested in is what am I doing, where have I been, and with who. She called again this morning, so I guess these are all positive signs. <hr></blockquote><p>THIS IS REALLY BIG. <p>She is reaching out to you - to fill her need for conversation. She wants you to talk to her. It looks like she is calling you instead of OM. <p>However, this could be a red flag.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> (although she actually didn't talk much). <hr></blockquote><p>Many men (read "you and I" ) use conversation differently than women do.
My wife goes walking every morning with a girlfriend. I often ask her what she talks about. They care about things that we don't care about. They talk about things we don't "normally" talk about. <p>So how could this have been a red flag? <p>Well, when she asked what you had done, who you had been with, did you dive in with enthusiasm, or did you say, "not much, nobody really." ?<p>I think you can see where I am going with this. <p>Talk, Talk, Talk. Make her feel your smile, your love over the phone. Partly with what you say, but ..... well..... how to explain this?<p>OK, our company uses the phone a lot. I have been to training seminars about it, they teach that how you look, and act, can be felt on the other end of the conversation. If you feel positive, smile, and ACT like you have enthusiasm while on the phone, it carries through somehow to the person on the other end, even though they cannot see you. Make sense? <p>I think you ought to call her this evening. Ask her the same kinds of things, she has been asking you. Tell her you miss her and are looking foreward to seeing her. But not in a sad way. Not with a frown, like you're falling apart, with a smile like you have a secret plan to meet her wildest dreams and you can't wait to share it with her. That should show in your voice. Again, pull her in with enthusiasm, make her feel it over the phone. <p>Well, I'm not trying to communicate to you that you don't already know some or all of this. Sometimes it seems to help us to hear it over again, especially when we are in the middle of a life altering crisis. <p>One last thing - make notes about what she asks you - "who you were with, what you did." or whatever else she says. Then, listen when ever you go out, to other women that talk about the same things. Listen to how they respond, what makes them laugh, the direction they take the conversation. Use what you learn to meet your W's need for conversation - not only on the phone, but after she returns. <p>Oh, shoot, ONE more last thing.
When you are a pole vaulter running down the lane, a few yards from making your vault. - that is not the time to ask yourself. " will I ever be good at this, am I going to fall." And also,
" I'll probably hit the bar, this will never work." <p>This is the time when you need to tell yourself over and over again that you can do this, that she will come back all the way. There will be time later if it gets bad again to think about separation, and D. I see signs that she wants YOU. Right now, think only about the positive. Use all your energy in positive ways, positive thoughts. You are making the vault right now. Make this the best one you have ever had. When you wake up every day, tell yourself that there are things you can do TODAY that will make a difference. Then do that thing, or things you have planned to do. A few positive things, done every day for many days will make a huge difference. <p>SS

Still Seeking - <p>When my WW asked about what I was doing, I did give her the actual answer (at my nephews soccer match) and was pleasent about it..I actually talked about the game and other things. I did see it as an opportunity to throw it back at her and say why should I tell you what I am doing when you will not do this, but I recognized that if I did that it would be a LB and just picking a fight. My reaction was to "do unto others as you want done to you", I want her to talk so I should show her that I am willing to do this.<p>She did call again this afternoon and we had an OK conversation. Sometimes it is just hard to know what to say when she doesn't say much of anything. But I did try to sound upbeat and interested things at her Mom's house.

Today's update<p>WW called around noon and left message. When I called her back, I told her we (my friend and I) were at my sister's house eating lunch and socializing because my cousin was in town visiting. I also told where we went last night and the things we did. WW sounded very unhappy and stated that she was not having a good trip. She said that our daughter was up part of the night and she did not get sleep. She also said that she felt like she had spent the trip chasing our daughter and it was not relaxing at all. I hope she realizes if she is on her own with joint custody, there will plenty of times when there is nobody to help her with our daughter. I did tell her that I missed her and I have been thinking about her. She had no response for this. She did say that she hoped we were not destroying the house. She also said she probably would not call again today, and would call from the road tommorrow after she leaves. She will be surprised to see that I have cleaned the house and will be shampooing the carpets today. <p>Oh well, it doesn't appear she is going to come home recharged or closer to a decision. On the other hand I think it may be an opportunity for her to be happy being back home and if I can make it pleasent for her this could be a plus. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I had not been very good at helping in the home. ( I did good with the yard, but not inside.) When I started helping, my wife thought it was just a ploy at first. It took about 3 months before she would accept that I realy did care and wanted to make her life a little easier. <p>After that, she started to respond - sloooowly. <p>You may not see much change from day to day. But month to month you may. <p>She might even be angry at first because when you do nice things, it makes her look even worse for going after OM. When she feels guilty, she may get mad and lash out at YOU. <p>If she does, don't take the bait. Be nice no matter what. You are going to get some tests. Make sure you pass. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Are you doing okay?

No time to post everything I am feeling right now. Lets just say it is all bad. Yesterday was the absolute bottom for me. I'm not sure if there is anything left in the tank. I'll give the full update later.

Onwardandup,<p>I am sorry you had a terrible day. It seems nothing I do is right with my WW, since I do so much around the house anyway, I do not think anything I do will make any impression. I kind of wish I was a real bad husband and father before all of this so that even something small would make an impression. I seem to think you are in the same boat with me.

Well here it goes. I had a decent weekend with WW away and did everything concievable around the house to please her. When my friend and I got back from the soccer match on Sunday WW was already home and was ICE COLD toward me. After we ate dinner, she came to me and said I've got something to do I'll be out for a few hours. I told her that it is her choice what she wants to do. So she left...<p>Needless to say, here I was looking forward to her coming home and she had the nerve to leave as soon as I got home. On top of that we had a mutual friend here and she blew him off too. So I was raging. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't think I have ever been so mad in my life. I screamed and yelled and went crazy (my friend was realy impressed [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ). I just could not believe she had the nerve to go see him.<p>When she got back, I was so angry I went in my office and did not want to see her. So she comes in and starts with this "I'm so sorry I have hurt you". She then says "I want to go back to marriage counseling". <p>Unfortunatly, she had pushed me too far this time. I couldn't even listen to her (there was just nothing good left for me to feel towards her). I told her I would have to think about the counseling, I just wasn't there at this moment. I never yelled or said something bad, but I was on empty. She ended up crying again.<p>She asked me to sleep in our bedroom and I did and held her. I felt good holding her, but I slept about 1 hour (still haven't slept now). In the morning the same feelings of hate, hurt, and pain were still there just as strong. I am not one to hold anger for a long period and this just doesn't feel right.<p>Today she called and tried to suggest that she went to break it off with him, but this was only me reading between the lines. She did not come out and say anything. I told her, I don't understand what is going on and she needs to talk to me.<p>This evening she said nothing and I was still to angry to start a conversation without LBing.<p>I do know that he (OM) called her 20+ times while she was away and she did not call him nearly as much. <p>I'm just not sure of anything right now. In some respects I just want to stop the pain, and I do not want to give her the opportunity to hurt me again. I realize I need to chill for a few days, see how I feel, and talk to her and try to understand what is going on. But I am so angry [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

It sounds like your demeanor has made a big impression with your WW. It sounds like she is trying to patch things up. Go with your feelings on this. You have every right to be angry. I would be angry.<p>What is interesting to me about all of this is your WW response to your anger. Since this is out of character for you, it seems that this has made a big impression on her. I think that the problem with Plan Aing all the time is that it makes the WW's feel that we are O.K. with them continuing to see the OM. I think a good outburst here and there once every one to two weeks is healthy, to put things back into perspective, to make the WW's see all of the pain and hurt they are causing us, and to once again feel guilty for the terrible things they are doing to us. <p>I feel that I am very effective at Plan A, and this makes my WW feel exonerated of her actions. As soon as I see this in her, I bring her back down to reality by calmly describing how much pain I am in and how I hurt she is inflicting on me. Occassionally, I will remind her that the road she has chosen will lead to me leaving her, and I will not stomache another man in our marriage for much longer.<p>A few weeks ago, I printed out seperation papers off the internet (free!). I gave these to her at one of those times she was on cloud 9. I went through an explanation that I did not want to seperate, but I did want it crystal clear the choices we have in life right now. I told her that I wanted to make sure to protect mine and her rights so that when and if I decided to leave, it would not be viewed as abandement. I told her to begin thinking of custody etc. I am sure this placed an indelable image on her mind, one that will stay with her while she is thinking about the OM.<p>Maybe you should try something like this. If you do, be careful that it does not push her into wanting to seperate. You have got to make sure that she can handle this. It is a little dangerous and it is a huge LB.

The anger is a little subsided today, I think sleep helped. This morning WW wanted to know if I would hug her before she left. I did but I couldn't bring myself to say I love you.<p>Dreamland - <p>Have you been to marriage counseling? What has been your experience?<p>I remember you saying that if your wife's PA was continuing that you would have had enough. What are your limits?

I have not been to MC. My wife does not want to go and right now, I feel better than ever, so I do not want to go for just me. I would like to eventually go to MC with WW just to get a fresh perspective. My WW and I are communicating very well and as long as this continues and is open I think we may not need MC. I really do not know. I am scared of MC because I do not agree with all the popular theropy, and christian MC's rarely are qualified to give opinions. You can tell I still have not decided what to do about MC. Right now the only MC I would have any confidence is Dr. Harley, and even then, I do not think he understands the importance of unconditional love in all of this.<p>You are right about my limits. If she is having a PA now, it would be devistating to me. I can forgive her for the past PA, but I am not sure about a PA now. I probably would go to Plan B almost immediately. I have no tolerance for PA, but that is just me. However, knowing my forgiveness level, I would probably forgive her because of my deep unconditional love, and return to Plan A. I would then post as D-day #2. It is hard to say in these things with 100% assurity how I would react.<p>If she continued her A for more than six months, I will move to plan B. I think this is enough agony for me.<p>In a much more positive note, I took my wife to the Hootie and Blowfish concert here. We had a great time. The concert was at an ampi-theatre where you can bring in small tables (TV-trays) for a dinner. I had a caterer bring in food (crab cakes, prime rib, and great desserts.) It was delicious. I had a white table cloth, prety floral arrangement, and red wine. I can see this had a very positive influence on her. I am almost convinced that the secret to marriage is to never stop dating (dating = romance?), and the secret to Plan A is to date. I am going to plan some more of these type things (maybe not as expensive).<p>Have you tried to take her out to dinner or a movie or planned a special occasion?

I have not had the opportunity to go out on a date yet. We have talked about it, but never been able to make it happen.<p>I was planning on doing something this weekend, but right now I don't know if I am up to it. I guess I am just so confussed because she doesn't talk to me and I am left having no idea if she is coming or going. I've tried to tell her it is important that we talk, but she always seems to go back to the I don't want to talk now or I'm not ready to talk. I haven't pushed her any, but it just leaves me not knowing anything, confused, and angry.

Main question is "Do you LOVE her". If so, make a date to go see Spiderman or something like that this weekend. If she does not go, go by yourself. I saw Episode II with WW and kids. The kids tag teamed us, but it was fun to go out anyway. At a movie, you do not have to talk and it will be good for you to forget about your troubles for a while.<p>The anger will pass. You must remember that she is in a fog and Plan A will not necessarily get a response. She is not going to drop the OM overnight. Try to think about other things. How about just renting a movie for yourself tonight?

Hi. <p>Good grief. Sounds like the latter part of Sunday was awful. I think taking a couple of days to cool off is a very good idea. Most people in your situation wouldn't be able to do that, and I give you a ton of credit for managing your emotions at such a difficult time. <p>Concerning the "suggestion" that your W was trying to end it with the OM, all I can say is this: "trying" is a cop out, and she is probably trying to throw you enough crumbs to keep you hanging on, without making any sacrifices herself. For you to have even a chance at reconciliation, the A has to be completely over. You know it, I know it, and intellectually, your W knows it, too. And if it isn't, and you go back to marriage counseling while your spouse is still in regular personal contact with the OP, it will be a huge waste of time for both of you. If your W still has the OM and is going to counseling with you, she's not giving your marriage a fair chance. Anyone who says that an infidelity is "irrelevant" to his or her marriage just doesn't get it. <p>So you don't get the wrong idea, I am not at all an advocate for throwing in the towel. I have been separated for a year, and my H says he doesn't want a divorce; he's just kind of immobile right now and doesn't know what he wants. You will find it's very difficult to live in that kind of limbo and not have any closure. I think that's one of the worst parts of this whole process - <p>You hope your marriage isn't over. You suspect it is. You're in pain and want a decision to be made, one way or another. Your spouse can decide to (1) reconcile or (2) end it. You only have the power to end it; you don't have the power to reconcile unilaterally. So you wait, and try to make positive changes to convince your spouse he/she wants to reconcile. And occasionally you backslide, because you can't take the ups and downs and the stress of not knowing how it's going to turn out. Sometimes you backslide because you feel like you are the one who has been hurt the most, and it's so unfair that your spouse is unapologetic, while you take the entire burden of what went wrong in the relationship onto your shoulders. And your relationship becomes the most important thing in your universe and you can't think about anything else but that. And you can stay that way for a while, but eventually, you have a decision before you - something you CAN control:<p>Is life going to make you bitter, or is it going to make you better? <p>Because there are positives to come out of this process too, if you allow them. You will learn more about yourself than you ever did before. You hopefully learn to accept what's happened, and to accept a PROPORTIONATE share of responsibility for the current state of your marriage. You come face to face with your faults and you make a concerted effort to improve yourself, and you become a better person for it. You figure out that, despite your faults, you are overall a decent person, and you acted honorably and did everything you could to save your marriage. That makes you feel pretty good about yourself, despite your pain, which makes you feel much better in general about life. You start doing things for yourself because you deserve it, being the good person that you are, and because you actually start feeling pleasure again that is separate and apart from your relationship with your spouse. You relax your concentration on your relationship, accept that you can't control your spouse and you stop trying, focusing more on yourself and trying to figure out the things that make you happy. You then begin to realize that YOUR LIFE WILL GO ON AND YOU WILL BE JUST FINE, EVEN IF YOU ARE ALONE. And then at some point way down the line, you actually believe it. <p>(and of course that's the precise moment when your spouse comes running back, ruining all of your progress. Just kidding)<p>So far, from what I can see, you're doing great and are well on your way. Good luck.