I do still love her. Its just that right now with everything I feel, I don't want to be hurt again. Unfortunately, I am certain that I will be hurt by her again. Of course, it is not her hurting me, but me in my mind creating the hurt. For me this is the price I pay because if I shut of my feelings toward her to prevent the pain there will be nothing left.<p>I do feel slightly better today. I think I just need to hang low and let the pain subside for a few days. I am not going to start any conversations with her and just try to "hang loose". <p>I have my IC counseling session tommorrow and I'm sure that will help me feel better. I'm still exhausted and since my daughter is taking a nap, I think I will try to catch a little more sleep.

Unfortunately, you are right about the pain part. Whenever you love, their will be pain, and in our circumstances, AGONIZING PAIN <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> . People are not perfect, and we have hurt our spouses as well, just not as deeply as this in my opinion. <p>Good luck in hanging loose. That is a tough thing to do. Post later, I am curious as to how this recent event plays out. I wonder if she is thinking of ways to make you feel better about all of this so she does not loose you.

In a way, I kind of feel I have said too much already on your thread. But I would like to throw one thing out there for you - <p>There is much accumulated wisdom on these boards. Nothing you are going through is new ( I don't mean to diminish your pain, I know it's new for you . ) What I mean is that everything has already been tried. People here can tell you what can actually work. Please wander around some of the old threads for a while. You can get a lot of ideas and strength. <p>Note not every marriage can be saved. HOWEVER, in every case that I have read, no one ever regretted a good plan A. They always felt, succeed, or fail, that they had done everything that could be done. They were at peace, and they were HAPPY. <p>I still think your wife wants to come back. hjl pointed out that "trying is a copout." I guess it kind of is. But many WS's never even try. Remember that people need help giving up addictions. She appears to be asking for help. She has a weakness, and has admitted it ( hey, she wants counseling.) You can get angry she has the addiction, or if you are strong enough, you can help. Only you know which. <p>SS

^

HJL -<p>If you didn't see it there was another person looking for some information or just to talk to you today (the post is titled "to hjl"). Cheers.

I am so f***ing confused I haven't been able to think for a whole day or even now (this seems like a long time to me). <p>So last night we kind of got into it a little. She saw a letter about my life insurance and came to the conclusion, I had taken her off as the beneficiary. In reality my coverage had lapsed and it was for reinstatement (I spent half of the night searching for the letter to verify this is what realy happened). Then she started in about how she needs her privacy. She kept saying that she believes she should have private things from me. I didn't realy go off, I just stated that from my point of view there should be nothing private in a marriage and that is where we have gone wrong in the past. We realy didn't fight and I said some appologetic things about LBing I had done since this all began two months ago.<p>In the morining I asked her if there was anything she wanted me to address at my IC session (I usually give her this chance...why not, at least it is one way to see what is on her mind). She said no and then called after she left for work and said she wanted me to talk about joint counseling.<p>My father came over and told me that my sister had seen my WW on Sunday before I got home from the soccer match. He stated that according to my sister, WW was angry and making remarks about how she wanted to get the house. I just don't understand how this fits in with her "wanting to go to joint counseling".<p>At my IC session, my counsleor warned me that it is impossible to interpret what my WW is saying. She said that I need to be prepared to be hurt again if I choose to continue to try and work things out. She stated that the signals from my WW were so confused and they could mean anything. She was happy with how I have been coping. I kind of feel the same way about the signals I have been getting, and I was thinking of starting a conversation with WW about what is going on. <p>Thanks Dreamland and others for the advice, after IC session I rented a couple of movies to watch and relax tonight. <p>After WW came home I decided not to hit her with my requirement to end the A and all contact before going to counseling (I had set this boundary after our first session). I just decided to let it slide and see what happens without starting a conversation.<p>WW never asked about joint counseling, so I told her I rented movies and she was free to watch them with me. She sat on the other side of the room and only in the last 1/2 hour of the movie would she sit by me. After the movie I hugged her and she started to cry quite a bit. I asked her if she was OK and she didn't say anything. This went on for for a while and I just held her. Eventually she said she was going to bed. I hugged her and she was still teary eyed. I told her I love her and asked if I could kiss her. She let me and then went to bed.<p>So at the end of the day, nothing is resolved and the confusion has multiplied. I truely do not understand anything that is going on. This is so difficult when she shows emotions or actions and yet tells me nothing. I think the best thing to do is not waste time and energy trying to interpret things, only time will tell (if she ever talks or her actions take a firm direction).

I was wondering about you.. I am sorry things are so hard, But your hanging in there. <p> Just be patient.

Mom of Five - <p>Thanks for the support. It is just so hard when you have no idea what is realy going on. I'm now going by the day by day approach (or hour by hour). This will work for a while since I am finished with school for the summer and will have less stress. I just hope at some point she starts to open up. I know I can't try to bring it out of her, but it is so difficult to know something is in there (when she cries) and yet she keeps it from me.

your wife has a lot of emotions going on, I believe if she truly did not want to be there she would be gone. <p> sometimes we dont know what we want. I will catch up on your post and write more tomorrow. start thinking about your self, take the little one out to play. they do wonders for your spirits. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey - Sorry I have been out of touch for the last day. I meant to get in touch with you earlier this evening but couldn't. I read your last two posts and I really feel for you. <p>It's tough, the situation you're in. But it's not at all unusual. Your W doesn't want to confide in you right now, so I wouldn't expect it. She's bouncing around a lot, kind of on her own rollercoaster. So it might not be a good idea to place too much importance on anything she says or does. She's confused so she's giving you mixed signals. I think you need to stick with what has been working so far - what is it that you have been doing so far that has NOT produced a negative reaction from your W? Hang in there. H<p>Oh - and thanks for the heads up about the other post.

HJL-<p>The question is...what is a negative reaction? I don't know if it is good or bad when she cries, it seems like this happens when we are close or communicating at a good level.<p>On the other hand I can say that everytime I try to have a substantive conversation about her A or what she is feeling/thinking she goes into a lockdown and gets cold.<p>I also think that when I do more (or should I say all) things around the house she is happy. Of course I would be happy to get this treatment also, while I was out having fun. At least I consider that I am doing if for my daughter, since she lives here more than either me or my WW.

Ok so I just like coming here to ponder things...<p>This afternoon I talked with my sister. She relayed some of the conversation she had with WW on Sunday. In a nutshell, WW said she is not in love with me, wants to get the house in a divorce, can't stand me, etc. She also was unhappy having spent the last five days with our daughter and didn't like taking care of her. She also admitted the A to her and said she wasn't going to give him up. She also stated that she wanted me to give up my Ph.D. schooling. Needless to say I did not like to hear these things (especially since she doesn't say them to me). [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So after she came home, she wanted to go for a walk. She couldn't get the garage door to close and asked for my help. I started to go over and she said "No, just tell me what to do...I want to be able to do things myself". I let the anger from what my sister said get to me and said "Isn't that what you have been doing for the last two months". Needless to say things were cold for a little while.<p>We still went for the walk, and I tried to make up for the LB by being calm and offering small talk. When we got back, I made dinner and we talked. She started by telling me that my comment earlier was a big withdrawl from her love bank (I did not know she had one, or expected that she would remember anything from reading SAA). I told her I was sorry. I also told her my love bank had been suferring withdrawls for the last two months. She then wanted to know what my decision was about counseling. I told her that I had needed to time to figure out how I felt after Sunday night. I then stated that I was willing to go, but did not want to get hurt anymore. I told her what has been going on has hurt me and that I was willing to expose myself to more hurt. I told her that without her talking to me, I can not have any reasonable expectations of her actions and would probably get hurt by her continued relationship with the OM. She still did not talk to me about the A or offer anything except that she wanted to go to counseling. I did tell her that I was feeling good about myslelf and knew I would be OK no matter what. At this point she did say she did not like it when I said this. I told her that I was not saying this because I was ready to let go, but that it is important for me to feel good about myself so that I can feel good about our relationship and meet her needs.<p>We then watched another movie I had rented. She would not sit near me let me offer any affection. When the movie was over she hugged me and began to cry again. I asked her if she was OK, and she said that it was all so difficult (nothing more). We hugged and I asked if I could kiss her again, she said yes so we kissed. Progress?...Status Quo?...Who the heck knows?........

Hi.<p>Negative reactions are coldness, withdrawal, anger. Things like that. If she's crying, seems like she's at least expressing some awareness of loving feelings she may still have for you. I would back off on the asking her for kisses, etc. Thaat's pursuit. You might want to let her initiate physical contact, otherwise she might feel like you're pushing her. <p>Be patient. you're doing the best you can.

One other thing - no way do you give up the PhD. No way.

onwardandup,<p>Sorry I have not jumped in with any comments for the past two days. I have been out of town and had no access to internet. I missed this message board.<p>Well, you have had a lot going on it seems. I think you need to spend a little more time trying to pry information out of your WW. If a she is tight lipped, you need to dig it out of her. She really wants you to try harder. Men give up so easily about this. <p>No means yes. Next time she starts crying, turn off the movie, she wants to talk, and that is why she is crying. She is trying to reach out to you. If you leave the TV on, it says you are not interested in her and what she has to say. If it every happens again, turn the TV off, turn toward her and look at her deeply in her eyes, give her your undivided attention, and ask her what is wrong. If she says nothing, it means she wants you to try harder and work at it. Reply saying something like, "I am very interested in how you are feeling. I try to guess all the time how you are feeling. Please share with me why you are crying. Have I hurt you." If she continues by saying nothing is wrong, she is really playing a game with you. She is doing this to see how much you really care for her. If you do not work at it, she gets a signal that you are not really interested in what she has to say. I know that this is very silly, but women love these games. Learn to play the game, it makes them feel wonderful. After the second rejection of her not confiding in you, you try the final tactic which is confinding in her your feelings. Tell her how you are feeling about anything. Give her a little bit of yourself, so that she feels comfortable talking about her feelings. Tell her that it makes you very hurt to see her cry, and you desperately want to know she is feeling. Go into more detail about how she makes you feel when she does not confide in you. <p>I have been very successful in reading women this way. At first I was like you. I thought no means no. Unfortunately, it is not that easy. Most of the time, no means yes. However, to confuse things, sometimes no does mean no, but you will never know until you try. Look at how she is responding to you. Some women will give a tiny bit of a pout face or a fake sad look. Beware, the game has begun. I have started to enjoy this quite a bit. It makes me feel great that I was able to pull her feelings out of her. <p>For example, the other night my WW was talking on the phone to a girlfriend. It started getting late, and I was a bit upset that she was ignoring me all night, so I retired to bed. She came upstairs with a glass of wine and said "ohh, you are sleeping." I said, "yes I decided to go to bed. I am tired." She then said that she was hoping she could watch a little bit of TV to unwind, but she said "I see you are trying to sleep." Well I knew immediately that the games began. I said no thats O.K. come on in and turn the TV on. She said, "no, I will go back downstairs," and she turned out to walk down the stairs. Acting fast, I got up and turned the bedroom light on. Sat up in bed and said come on in lets talk." She turned around and came back in. This is just one of many many times she has played these kind of games.<p>It will be very hard getting her to talk now. You two have a lot between you now. Try to remember back to when you were dating. You have to treat your conversations as though you are just getting to know her, and you are very interested in every word she says. You have to make her feel that she is safe with you, and she probably is not getting this feeling.<p>Sorry for rambling about this one thing. IMHO: I thought it might be helpful for you to know that I do not think she is intending not to tell you how she is feeling. I think she is playing normal women games. Do not get frustrated or upset, work the game, and remember do not give up until she starts to get mad at you. <p>Try this and let me know if it works.<p>About all those nasty things she said about you to your sister, ignore what she said. Women rarely mean what they say, but they mean what they do. Women act this way, and think that men are the same way, so they read our "non verbals" ,as my WW tells me, to see how we really feel. So you have to be very careful about how you act and be mindful that she is not paying attention as much to what you are saying, but what you are doing.<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

Every WS that has A says these same negitive things. All the ones that reconcile say it too.
She will probably say them all the way back to a loving life with you. <p>Agree with what dreamland said about conversation. <p>SS

Good news. <p>For the semester that just ended I had to take one class as an incomplete to finish a paper this summer. For the other two classes I recieved an A and an A+. I wanted to rub it in my WW's face and say "see I still succeeded, despite what you are doing to me". Of course, I didn't but I am gloating on the inside.<p>BTW, we had sex this morning (sorry HJL I know as my friend you don't want to hear this, but you should read). I was the one who started it, yes this may be pursuit, but it felt good at the time. On the other hand, I think both of us were thinking what are we doing afterwards. I will try to cool this off a little, and work more on non-sexual affection and other needs (hopefully not in a manner that shows pursuit).<p>I also called for the counseling appt. today. It may be a waste, but my insurance covers everything in whole.<p>HJL - <p>Don't worry about the Ph.D. I have no intention of stoping what I am doing. The pursuit line seems very fine to me. If I don't show my emotions, she feels like I am giving up or not interested. When I do show my emotions, she sometimes is repelled. I think I just need to know when is the right time and when it is not the right time.<p>Dreamland - <p>I think you are right, but the difficulty is that in the past No has meant No for her. She is very stubborn so getting to the point where she is mad only makes things worse. I think I just need to start working with small things and get her comfortable talking more with me in general. I think this means talking about good things, or non-threatening things. Once some of this comfort is built up, I think the situation would improve.<p>I have never been good at playing the type of game you describe. Part of that is not understanding, and part of it is misinterpretation of the signals. I will certainly be more aware of what I do in addition to what I say. As for my WW she is so mad and unhappy most of the time it is hard to know when is a good time. I think getting her to have some fun would be extremely important. The weekend is kind of booked, but maybee next week we could go out.

Onward, <p>You've got it. <p>You are past the scared stage, you have setteled down and are doing the work. It must feel better to you. Your actions can affect the outcome for good. <p>The down days will still come. Just try to recgonize them for what they are, and avoid major discussions until the depression / anger is gone. <p>AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK !
SS<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

onward<p> I am so proud of you for getting the A'S That is great success, You should be proud, and dont ever give up your dream. It IS IMPORTANT IF YOU DID , YOU WOULD REGRET IT FOREVER.. I DONT BELIEVE YOUR WIFE WOULD WANT YOU TO EITHER.
Sometimes, It is hard not to be close with the one we love and want to be close to, But you are doing a great job.<p> I havent heard you mention the phone calls to OM have they stopped? She is spending more time with you and even taking a walk is great progress, since you are doing a plan A.
I may have missed something, has she made a no contact letter to the OM or are they talking at all?
Seems you confronting him has not hurt you as much as you thought, and perhaps helped you get some of this out of your system, although not something you should continue to do as this will certainly not help you.
Just wanted to give you HIGH FIVE on the grades and see how you were.
HANG IN THERE

Another update - <p>This weekend was the best I have spent with my WW since everything began. We spent a lot of time together and she showed some signs of affection toward me. One thing I have realized is that although she did not rank recreational companionship very highly, it is something that causes her to have a very positive reaction. As I think back, this was the case in the past and I just didn't realize it. Just doing yard work and projects together seems to change her whole perspective. She was even interested in SF after spending quality time together.<p>We are planning to go out to dinner (just the two of us) this week.<p>For other big changes, she has invited me back into the master bedroom for the last three nights (I was so nervous, I had to take a sleeping pill the first night). <p>She also spent a great part of the weekend talking about future things. She wants us to start building a deck on the house. She wanted to talk about accomodations when we got to two weddings later this summer. She even made a comment about our schedules in the fall when I return to school.<p>I am not getting my hopes up (don't want a big letdown) and will just continue to do what seems to be working with no pressure.<p>Mom of Five - <p>The contact with the OM hasn't ended (even without the phone calls, she works with him everyday). There has been no discussion of a no-contact letter or her changing job even though she knows how I feel...I don't think it is wise to push the issue. She still has not opened up to me with any information about the EA/PA. <p>As for the frequency of calls, it seems diminished. I know she did not talk to him after Saturday AM until going to work today (that is the longest I think they have gone with out talking in months). Over that period he left four messages on her cell phone (yes, I checked...but only to see if there were messages and if they had talked...I have never tried to listen to the messages). I think it is good sign that she was not constantly checking for his messages and responding. I can only hope he LBs her about not calling him (he doesn't seem the type, but I can hope).<p>All in all, it seems like there is some progress.