Honestly (and I feel nervous sometimes writing this because I don't want to get flamed! ) I wonder about Plan A. I mean from a practical standpoint it makes sense. But realistically NO one can plan A w/o mistakes and having little blow ups. I just don't believe it is humanly possible in such a stressful situation: esp. if your WS is spewing lies and venom aimed towards you, it'd hard to even calmly tell them to stop disrespecting you! anyway I know you are past the Plan A stage but I think it's not healthy to expect to be a pillar of strength all the time, even for your kids. They may have even appreciated the honesty- kind of validates their feelings about the strange stuff going on!

Bh,

Well, you did what I was going to tell you if the topic came up.

My boys Know I don't like the OW, know I really don't want them to like her but if they do I am fine with it. In fact I keep after them so much that it was all right to like her, that they both got mad about it.

They ignor her for the most part. YS really hates her.

Hope you are all right and that your kids are too. I think it must be worse for you as you know her & your kids did also. WAt, has the same problem.

Hoping that things get better.

Hi Libbie - I know it seems like I am past the Plan A point since we now live in different states, but I still practice Plan A whenever we are together (birthday parties, etc.) or talk on the phone. I don't think our marriage can be saved at this point, but maybe he will see me as someone he likes to be around. Does that make any sense?? You're right it doesn't seem fair to keep being understanding, nice and no LB's and then get slapped in the face w/ one disrespectful act after another. It is weird, but it works for me to keep in Plan A. I feel better about myself and maybe someday, that feeling will show through to my H. I agree w/ you that it is not humanly possible to not LB once in a while. A person can only take so much and then you have to let it out. MOst of the time it works to come here and vent, but then there are those time when the LB just happens and you have no control over it. sorry I am going on and on. They did appreciate the honesty after a while. At first, it seemed like my D was going to have an attitude about the whole thing, but then she calmed down and she was very comforting and understanding. Thanks Libbie! I just read your post and will go back in a little while to respond to your question.

Hi Sing - My son hates OW too. He won't talk to her at all and ignores her as much as possible. He told me that she tried to yell at him yesterday! He just laughed at her and walked away. It does make it more difficult when all the parties involved know each other and have all been friends for years. It hurts so much. Even though it wasn't my original plan, I am so glad things turned out this way. I do feel a little better today. I slept pretty well last night (the first time all week!) Thansk sing!
BH

Nellie,

My goodness!!!!!!! The jails in your state must be near to bursting at the seams ....housing all those people who committed adultery! How does the state support them all??? Our state finds it a chore to support all the thieves, rapists, murderers, molesters, and all the other garden variety criminals. To try and take care of all those adulterers too....WOW....it just would not happen without an enormous increase in taxes. I think that they must place them with the people that are arrested cause they jaywalked.

While I am making light of the "law" issue I am in no way making light of "adultery". It is just not right in my eyes. But society has gotten quite lax in it being acceptable and it is not a punishable act ( at least not by the local sheriff's department).

Since when is it "disrespectful" to talk about letting kids form their own opinions? Of course we have some say in the matter! Otherwise a BS would not be so quick to tell them what a low life ....scum sucking...womanizing ....adulterer...that their dad is. That is what that is....wanting them to conform to that belief. (btw, this is just a generalization and in no way pointing at anyone) This would be forming their opinion for them with minutiae. We let them form their own with what they learn on their own. Her children are of a age where they do know right from wrong. She does not need to "drive it home".

Choosing is about staying home so that Mom does not get upset....or going so that Dad does not get upset. This is not about the children at all. It is about the parents setting and deciding on the boundaries. The WS was insensitive and it was totally warranted for brokenhearted to be upset that he took the kids there. It is because that it is with the person that he had the affair with. What if a divorce had been in the making due to something other than an OW? And a few months down the line he met someone and developed a relationship? Would it still be such an issue? Would it be hurtful for the kids to like that person. Would she be an OW?

Nellie, I think that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. We are both at opposite end of the sprectrum on this. Besides, it is brokenhearted's threat and might not be quite fair to her for us to be so strident in our postings.

As always, JMHO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>

Since when is it "disrespectful" to talk about letting kids form their own opinions? Of course we have some say in the matter! Otherwise a BS would not be so quick to tell them what a low life ....scum sucking...womanizing ....adulterer...that their dad is. That is what that is....wanting them to conform to that belief. (btw, this is just a generalization and in no way pointing at anyone) This would be forming their opinion for them with minutiae. We let them form their own with what they learn on their own. Her children are of a age where they do know right from wrong. She does not need to "drive it home".

MHO</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there is a very big difference between calling the WS pond scum and pointing out that the actions of the WS are immoral and wrong. And no, kids don't know right from wrong if their parents sit silent in the face of wrongdoing like moral cowards. If the parents accept it, the kids will too. They learn right from wrong from their parents and from their parent's REACTION to wrongdoing. That was the point Nellie was making and she was right on.

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I think that you had every right to be upset that he took OW and kids to your summer home. It's is thoughtless....but then again, he has been thoughtless through all of this right???

As for your kids....I am in the same boat as you...my kids know that I think the OW ruined our marriage. I have been divorced a month and we have been apart for a little over a year. My two boys have still not met the OW and they have not been to their father's new house that he shares with her and her son. My oldest started to waiver...he knows I got upset. I wasn't upset with him......it was the situation.....and we had a talk about it and I told both kids (14, 18) that I would support any decision regarding visiting their Dad. They both want a relationship with him but they want nothing to do with her. My oldest just left for college yesterday...I can't predict what will happen from here on in.....my youngest, still doesn't want to go there.

And yes.....it was in my temporary orders that they couldn't be with her and my XH untild we were divorced.....that was worth every penny. It took all of the pressure off of the kids.

My XH can't talk to the kids about his life....they don't want to hear it. He talks about sports and the job....that's it. Can't talk about the house...the new kid in his life or her. They don't want to know about it. Sometimes he slips things into the conversation in front of me about his neighbor.....I don't want to hear it either!!

My XH and I took my son to college yesterday along with my youngest. You would have never.....ever known that we were not a happily married couple bringing our son to school. It amazes me that we can do this....and I am so proud of myself that I don't snap at him or b*tch at him......because I know that I could. I can only hope that my over 12 hour day with my XH and my kids......bothered the heck out of her!

Keep yourseslf busy, when the kids go with him....do some things for you. There is life after all of this.....I am trying to look forward to it now. The pain of all of this...it was truly the worst thing that I have ever been through........and finaly facing that he was not coming home was very difficult....but you will get through all of this.....be strong...work on you....and love your kids......they know that your H is a dope...but it's Dad.....they will never look at her the way they look at you. (I have to keep telling myself this...too)

Stay strong....be happy.....look to the future!!!

BH<

I am really glad you had that chat with the kids. At least they can see how horrible this is their mother. But I keep wondering, couldn't your attorney make it where your husband sees the kids at a neutral place instead of exposing them to this moral cesspool? That would send a STRONG message to the happily esconced couple [who cares NOTHING about the wreckage they have left in their path] and to your children. I think it would do your kids good to realize that their dad's shacking arrangement is not morally acceptable by any standards. Any chance of such an arrangement?

And how is it that they can use your cabin? Is it jointly owned?

And BH, in case I have never told you this, I am in AWE of your grace and self restraint. You are a walking superb example of grace. If this had happened to me, I can assure you I would be in prison for murder right now.

committed and nellie - I think committed is right in saying "agree to disagree". There is no "right" answer in this situation. I think anyone has to handle the problem as it comes up and as they see fit for their own families and situations. As in my case, I had all intentions of not talking to them about it, but the circumstances that occurred when they arrived home made it absolutely necessary for me to do so. Everything worked out fine.
BH

(btw, this is just a generalization)

Melody,

committed was simply making a generalization.

I would agree that flaming your WS in front of the kids is done with the full intent of forming their opinion of the WS. They must be allowed to love that parent regardless of any moral misconduct.

I'm not saying it's wrong to inform the kids that the WS has done something immoral, but one's feelings towards the WS should be their own.The children should be allowed to form their own opinion of each parent. They should not be made to choose between parents simply because we feel that the WS has done something immoral.

broken hearted,

I'm glad things worked out for you. I hope it continues to. There are so many different opinions to listen to and derive a decision from for your particular circumstance.

I will quote committed once more and say "let's all agree to disagree".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ba109:
<strong>(btw, this is just a generalization)

Melody,

committed was simply making a generalization.

I would agree that flaming your WS in front of the kids is done with the full intent of forming their opinion of the WS. They must be allowed to love that parent regardless of any moral misconduct.

I'm not saying it's wrong to inform the kids that the WS has done something immoral, but one's feelings towards the WS should be their own.The children should be allowed to form their own opinion of each parent. They should not be made to choose between parents simply because we feel that the WS has done something immoral.

".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ba109,

Noone said they should be made to "choose" between 2 parents, so I'm not sure what your point is. The point is that it is a very different thing to make personal condemnations against the WS [he's a slime or a jerk, etc] and educating them about immoral behavior. It is the responsibility of the parent to educate them in that area, not to leave it up to them to "choose" what is right and wrong. Silence is just as bad as approval.

ba109,

Now I know why your screen name is so familar! Committedandlovingit often comes in with disruptive, sarcastic posts and you quickly come on and support him. Like a tag team act. Neither of you ever share your story, you only post to criticize and then support each others opinions when challenged. Here is another thread that you disrupted in the same manner:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018995;p=2#000023

I really hope you don't try and pull the same stunt here on brokenhearted's thread. It's really shabby. Who are you people?

Here's another:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019633

Mel

Once again...lighten up.

Since the subject matter of this thread is over (for all intent and purposes) I will use it to say this.

You've been so kind as to post links to other threads where we have had differing opinions. Thank you so much. I don't believe I've ever condemned your opinion in any of those threads. If I have, I truly apologize.

I have always stated that each and every one of us has our own opinion and are entitled to it. I would hate to think that members of this site would have to worry about sharing their opinions without being shamed, ridiculed, scolded, name called, etc.

There should be a free exchange of ideas and opinions here. At times we have to simply "agree to disagree".

broken hearted,

I apologize for this ruckus in your thread. I hope it is over.

Mel,

If you really feel the need to hash this out further, I'll be outside. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BA109,

There's nothing here to hash out, I thought it was important to point out your tag team act and the ruckus you have caused in other threads, which I did. Folks can read and decide for themselves.

felling so alone You are so right..he has been extrememly thoughtless during this whole thing. I wish I had put something in my temporary orders about not not allowing him to have the kids near her! My lawyer never even mentioned that option to me and I didn't know it was possible. Maybe because we lived next door and they already knew her??? I don't know.
It must have hard for you bringing your son to college w/ H. I am going to be in that boat next weekend. Actually, I am not even sure H is coming with us. On one hand I hope he doesn't, but on the other hand, it would be nice to think of her at home wondering about us!! thanks FSA, I am trying get on with my life and thinking about my future. As you know, it is so hard, but WE WILL SURVIVE!!

Melody - I will call my lawyer tomorrow to see if there is something I can do about setting some boundaries. The cabin is jointly owned and will be part of the divorce settlement (even though he thinks it won't be) He told me he didn't think the cabin should be part of the settlement because he put so much time and energy into building it...can you believe it???? It is like I wasn't there or went through the building years. Now that it is all finished, push me to the curb and let the new woman in to enjoy the fruits of our labor. I don't think so!! wow, sorry I kind of went off on a tangent there for a minute!!
Thanks for the kind words Melody! My sister tells me that she would be in prison too!! LOL! Like I tell her, if you were in this situation, you would probably act the same way.

ba, committed and melody - I am sorry this thread has caused dissention amongst you. Melody is one of my favorite people on this site! She is a wonderful person who helps so many people. Committed and ba, you both sound very nice too. Why don't you both post your stories so we can get to know you both better and know where you are coming from with your responses. You are right, we all have the right to our opinions! None of us want to be flamed either. You feel flamed by ML, Nellie probably feels flamed by you (I hope I am not speaking out of turn here..just MHO), and only because of the differing opinions! So, let us know about yourselves so we can get to know you better.

Thanks again for all of the great advice and comments. Now, I will start the uphill portion of the rollercoaster...until the next downhill comes about!
BH

BH WOW

I'm new here when I read this I said how thoughtless of your H. there are lesson hear that are being taught to your kids by everyone INVOLVED INCLUDING YOU.

You have to step up and do whats right, you are going to have to talk to them I have something you need to read this is what your kids are being taught.

They will live out this lie in there own lives wait and see.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

They are being taught to deny they feelings, They are being taught how to lie, look the other way, it's ok for your best friend to sleep with your H or boyfriend please read on.

Everyone gave good advice but, I have to go with Nellie on this one. What they are taught they will mirror, this can have an affect on there relationshipS. They may not want to marry after this, so forth and so on. Please click on the site above and read what lesson are being taught to your children.

MY PRAYERS & HEART, goes out to you. I purchased the book Surviving An Affair PLEASE GET IT IF YOU DON'T ALREADY HAVE A COPY.

MOST AFFAIRS DIE A NATURAL DEATH. IT'S IN THE BOOK A MUST READ

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

brokenhearted,

I am glad that your talk with the kids worked out fine. Don't worry about my feeling flamed by various posters - I am used to that by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Nellie I agree with you 100% here read this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

BH,

I must apologize to you for causing such angst and disruption on your thread. I felt compelled to contribute (which I thought was what the forum was all about) because I have first hand knowledge of what happens when parents place their children in the middle. I did not realize that having an opinion dfferent from certain individuals would label me as disruptive and sarcastic. I do want to just tell you that I watched as my late husband lost all contact with 2 of his precious children because their Mother (who was the WS) decided that they had to "choose" whether they wanted Mom or Dad in their life. And, when I say "choose" I mean in the way that visits, calls, and any direct contact would cause their Mother to be upset. He was the BS, not the WS and we met years after their divorce. My H contributed his fair share too, so he was not entirely blameless. He knew what was right and wrong and he wanted the children to stand up and acknowledge that. In the scheme of things, it left 2 of his 4 children becoming defensive in regards to their Mother. He did not enlighten those children, he merely estranged them from himself. They did not want to hear anything against their mother, especially her moral fiber. I watched and sat with a man crying his eyes out when he realized that his 2 daughters were lost to him forever. These daughters were teenagers when this happened which is a very volatile stage in their life to begin with. He died just this past November so suddenly that he had no time to repair those relationships. I watched as 2 of his children said their goodbyes to their Dad but the oldest and youngest of the 4 were sadly absent. Someone, be it the Father or the Mother must an advocate for the children. They should never be placed in the middle of the divorce. Many times since then his 2 devoted children have called me because I am their connection to their Dad. I am their connection because their Mother still gets "upset and furious" when his name is mentioned. That was my position. That was why I thought that I had something to contribute. I appreciate that you thanked me and acknowledged that you knew what I was stating and that you stood on that very same principle.

Nellie, I am sorry if I have made you feel as if I was flaming you. I do sincerely apologize. That is why I was saying that we should just agree to disagee and to not fill up a very important thread with tirades.

Melody, I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot with you because I differed from an earlier opinion that you had and it reached some outrageous proportions. As to your curiosity about my situation, I can only imagine it would be to decide if I am "post worthy". In answer to that, I will tell you that I was a BS years ago with my first husband. I allowed myself to become so wrapped up in my marriage and love for my husband that I lost myself in the process. I lowered my moral standards (ignoring his affairs) but I had to remove myself from that marriage when it became evident that my 2 darling children were the ones that would suffer even more than I. I didn't have the luxury of a Plan A. I was too busy trying to find ways to feed and clothe my babies. The verbal abuse, the mental abuse and the physical abuse had to end and it was me that had to end it. Even though, we were separated I was spared the trials and tribulations of dealing with an EXH, parenting schedules, and uncollected child support because he was killed in an accident before all those things had to be addressed. So, you see Melody I am not merely talking the talk....I have walked that walk. I am now watching and listening as my very much loved brother goes through the very same agony. It is something that I would never in a million years wish on anyone.

Again, to BH....I apologize wholeheartedly.

Fondest Regards,
committed

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Hi BigSis;
I am so sorry to hear that whole story. I only knew a small part of it.
My heart goes out to you. With a hug!