UPDATE!! - H & OW are at our summer home on vaca!!!!

I just can't believe he would be so thoughtless to take her and all of the kids (hers and mine) up to OUR cabin for "family bonding" time!!! AND MY KIDS AGREED TO GO!!! ARGHHHHHH. I am having a really hard time understanding this. to top it all off...they are going to The Flume and The Polar Caves (two popular attractions up here). For the past 13 years we have had this place and the ONLY time we ever did anything was about 5 years ago...we drove to the top of Mt. Washington! He was always too busy or too tired. Now all of a sudden, he wants to sightsee!! All I could think about last night was all of them sitting around the campfire laughing and talking. I feel so abandoned by everyone. I am sorry....I know this sounds like such a pity party. I just had to vent.

I am going out to lunch with my mother in a little while. Hopefully, it will help pull me out of this mood. It just seems like the hurt will never end. I know eventually it will, but WHEN!!

I think I will take off w/ the kids for a few days. Maybe go to Vermont. I have never been there. I don't have too much money to work with, but I know planning something will help get me out of this funk.
BH

[ August 24, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: brokenhearted ]

BH-

It looks to me that you have been in plan B for sometime, not plan A if you are separated. I also think that your H has taken every step (besides marriage to OW) in replacing you. Your kids appear to have accepted the fact that your M is over as well.

I hate to say this...but baring a miracle, it looks like your M is basically over. You need to plan for your own future and begin to emotionally separate (easier said than done) from your H.

It's time to take care of you....look at your impending final D date as a new beginning and a new life. Pray for strength and you shall receive it.

I know this is hard, but think of it this way- Thank GOD you are not with a person who can do this kind of thing to another person anymore! the fact that it is your ex best friend involved makes it even more sickening. I think you sound a lot stronger than I would be! I really and truly believe that what goes around will come around. Karma is a powerful, POWERFUL thing. I don't think you need or should do anything nasty to him, or to "get back", etc. He'll get his, in time.........and so will she. In the meantime try and think of all the new and exciting possibilities you have coming to you now! I am still with WS, but the prospect of starting over sometimes looks VERY appealing.........

God bless you, honey! Your signature line is so true! Just always keep it in mind!

Hi Brokenhearted,

Don't know what I can really say to you right now to make you feel a little better, but I wanted to post to you because I have been in your position and other than discovery day(s) it was the most painful thing I ever went through.

Just a little background. I was married 20 years, we have three kids, my ex-husband had an affair that I found out about after it ended, and then he turned to a long-time co-worker to help him through his grief. Well, as I told him would happen, this turned into an all-out affair and he has been living with her now for a year or so.

For all of our marriage we spent a week at the beach with the kids. He wasted no time packing up her daughter and our kids and taking them all to the beach for vacation. I was crushed.

When the kids came home it was obvious to me that the trip had been stressful. OW is very quiet by nature and going from one teen (hers)to four teens around was tough. I heard from a friend that my ex-husband said it was not "the best of times" and he would not be repeating it again in the near future. He also tried to keep everyone very "entertained" during that vacation, and still does when he and OW take the kids. It's funny, when you and your family went to the cabin you didn't seem to need to fill every second did you? My ex-husband still does that when he has the kids. They can never just hang out, it has to be plans, plans, plans up the kazoo. Kinda says somthing doesn't it?

I know you're hurting, but he will find out that you just can't remove one wife, insert another one and have everything happily go on. The kids are missing you and their old times there I'm sure so don't be too rough on them for agreeing to go. I've found mine will do almost anything to keep the peace and really bury their hurt. Please don't show them the hurt they have caused you by going. It's the hardest damn thing, but put on that happy face when they get home.

A little trip with you and the kids is the best idea. I've become very creative with vacations now as I don't have the kind of money I once did, but have managed to do things with the kids that I never would have done when I was married because he would not have wanted to do them...white water rafting, horse-back riding. It's been great and pretty cheap.

Just try to remember that being there is probably really wierd for the kids and even for your ex-husband. It's probably even weird for OW as there must be reminders of you everywhere. (GOOD!)

Glad you're having lunch with your mom. Keep busy as you can.

Thank you all for your responses.

Doogie, I never really went into plan B as I still have a lot of contact with H via phone. Even though we are separated, I am still practicing plan A whenever I talk to him or am around him (birthday parties, etc.) You are right, my marriage is over. He has replaced me and once our divorce is final (and hers) they are going to get married. Moving on with my life is what I have to do and I am trying to accomplish that but every once in a while i get thrown a curve ball....this was one of them. thanks for the response and I will pray for strength!

Hi L6, That is a good word to describe this whole situation...sickening! I truly believe what goes around comes around too! I can't wait to see what fate has in store for them!

Lucious - Thanks! I do try to remember the sun will come up tomorrow...most days it works. Then there are days like yesterday and today!

Once & Again - How true...it is almost as painful as discovery day! My heart goes out to you knowing that you went through this too. It is soooo painful. I can't even imagine who awkward it must be for the kids (all of them were friends..our sons were best friends as were my youngest daughter and her only daughter). I will do my best to put on my happy face when they get home. Thanks for sharing your story with me...it helps to know that my H is not alone with being an insensitive creature. As for reminders of me at our cabin, Julie is so oblivious and in her own little fantasy world, she won't even notice. I had a great time at lunch w/ my mom. We went shopping at the outlet malls after lunch. Great afternoon and great way to keep my mind off of everything.

Thanks again!
BH

bh,

I feel for you, I am sorry that this is happening. They do these things to impress the kids, "see nothings changed, dad's fun" it's sad!!!They have to work so hard to impress their own kids.

I was having a hard time too with my marriage being over, I didn't want to believe it, I had faith that things would be put back together, they're not. I ended up with a counselor and I had to make a list of the thing that I would stop doing concerning my marriage and my husband. It has really helped!!! I am a care taking type person and I was still taking care of STBX. It has helped with detaching, probably helped that I had surgery yesterday and nothin notta from him.

Got to go surgery went great, the 3 hour car ride wasn't too bad, just took my pain pills so will sleep for awhile now!!!

Don't ever worry about having a pity part here, just make sure you don't turn into a week long bash!!! OK!!

Dawn

Hi Dawn,
I am so happy that your surgery went well! I was worried about you! Thanks for the support. It is so hard to move on, but you and the rest of our friends at MB will help us get through this. I hope your recovery goes smoothly! Hugs to you Dawn!
BH

It sounds to me like you are feeling resentful (understandably) that your kids don't seem to get the fact that playing "happy family" is terribly hurtful to you. If you are trying to hide the fact that you are hurt from your children, I think that is a mistake. If you are successful at hiding it, which seems unlikely, it will just get worse. Your children are plenty old enough to understand how wrong their father's relationship with the OW is, and I think it is important to be honest with them about how you feel.

I'll be the dissenting voice here as it relates to the kids.

You are understandably hurt and angry. However, the kids cannot be asked to take sides. They will be harmed much more by that; guilt, confusion.

After all, no matter what happens, their father is still their father, their mother still their mother. Always.

They cannot be put in a position where their father invites them on vacation, and they have to think; how will mom feel about this? and decide based on that. Not fair to THEM.

I believe it would be better for you to try to internalize THEIR needs, fears, confusion, and desire to please. After all, I'm sure that they try to please you as well.

Would you accept that they decide if they do something with you based on what their father might feel?

I am truly sorry for your situation, really I am, but please don't transmit that to your children; they deserve better. Your H perhaps doesn't, but he will get what is coming to him without enlisting the children to help do it.

Thanks Nellie and Spacecase,
I am trying desperately to hide the fact that going w/ them on a "family" trip is devasting to me. My sister agrees w/ you, Nellie, that I should tell them exactly how I am feeling. Spacecase, what you said makes so much sense too. That is exactly the way I feel I have to handle this situation and why. I am so confused! For now, I will keep quiet and see what transpires. Thanks for your advice and comments. I appreciate it. Gives me a lot to think about!
BH

Hi Space,
I just re-read your reply and just wanted to emphasize to you that I vented here and not to my kids. They have no idea how upset I am. Thanks again for your post, I appreciate your advice!
BH

Dear BH,

I certainly understand your pain. Kinda like shoving poop in your face. The WS did that to us when he left me to take our son to the emergency hospital (asthma attack) so he could leave on a trip with the Ow to Yosemite. YUCK!!!

But here's the catcher......while in his favorite place (we used to go there every couple of years), he started crying. Later I read e-mails between them and she tried to cover over the fact that his moodiness basically ruined their vacation. But she did acknowledge it. Yea, they laughed some, did the dirty deed, went shopping, had room service a even a couple glasses of wine but later he said he did not really enjoy it because many of the places where they went, he saw us or remembered us being there with him.

YES! Made an impact and didn't even lift a finger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

May the same happen on his trip. May the kids remind him of the memories. Let Mz. Julie over come that obstacle.

JMHO,
L.

Wow, Orchid, that would be awesome! I surely hope that happens w/ H! They will be home on Saturday. I hope they will talk to me about their vacation. I don't think I will ask them about it...maybe just gently guide the discussion??? Anyway...I am glad your H saw the light! It give me a little bit of hope!
Thank L.
BH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by brokenhearted:
Thanks Nellie and Spacecase,
I am trying desperately to hide the fact that going w/ them on a "family" trip is devasting to me. My sister agrees w/ you, Nellie, that I should tell them exactly how I am feeling. Spacecase, what you said makes so much sense too. That is exactly the way I feel I have to handle this situation and why. I am so confused! For now, I will keep quiet and see what transpires. Thanks for your advice and comments. I appreciate it. Gives me a lot to think about!
BH<hr /></blockquote>brokenhearted,

I have to agree with Spacecase on this one. I think that talking to the kids about it will only make them DEFENSIVE about their dad. They will view it as an attack on their dad and it will only serve to drive a wedge between you and them. I know it's hard to hold back your feelings, but please don't bring them into this, it's not about them.

I feel so bad for you, BH. This is part and parcel of betrayal that just keeps on giving. I hope you can find something in your life that will divert you away from this slow suicide. It will get better, I promise you.

Thanks ML...I hope you are right and it gets better soon. I can't take it any more. I feel like I am going to burst. When they get home Saturday, I will do my very best to put on a happy face. My sister thinks I am wrong. She is trying to convince me to tell them exactly how I feel. I can't seem to make her understand why I can't do that right now. All I can do is what I think is right at the time. I just wish they hadn't gone to our summer home. He brought her there over our anniversary weekend too. Of course, that was before every thing was out in the open so they were alone. As Libbie said....thank God I am no longer with the kind of person who would do these things! He is not the person I married and loved for so many years.

thanks again Melody
BH

If I remember correctly, you said in a post after the home invasion episode that your daughter discussed with you how you felt about her going over to talk to Julie, and you gave her no hint that you were not ok with that. I think it is critically important to be absolutely honest with your children. If they find out later that you really were not ok with them going, they are going to feel betrayed by you - and they will, eventually, figure it out, or they will read these posts, or someone, like your sister, will tell them - I am actually shocked that they haven't already realized it. We are not talking about little kids who don't know what adultery is.

It is not just that he invited them on vacation. They are not being asked not to see their father. The point is that it is hurtful for them to go to a vacation home that has sentimental value for their mother when the OW is there. I think it is VERY important that they learn to consider other people's feelings before acting. Of course they should take into account their mother's feelings before deciding to do something like this - at what point does it become so not okay that the children should realize, or be told, that it is hurtful? Never? What if he took them and the OW to where he and brokenhearted had honeymooned? What if he decided to marry the OW in the same wedding chapel where they had married? Wouldn't you expect the kids to be sensitive enough to tell him no way? The children SHOULD be encouraged to think before they stomp on someone's feelings, to NOT just think about what they feel like doing. Life is NOT all about them and what they want regardless of the impact their actions have on other people.

There is no conflict here, no reason for them to get defensive. It is perfectly possible for children to know that their father is doing something very, very wrong, while still loving him. What if he had beaten his wife - should they still not "take sides" because their father is always their father? It is perfectly reasonable for them to remind their father that when he does something like take the OW to their parent's summer home, he is being insensitive and that they will not participate.

[ August 22, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]

Hi Brokenhearted:

Although I know it's hard to believe that your WH could be so cruel as to take the OW and your children to your summer home on vacation, I believe that this kind of "substitution" of one woman for another is pushing...forcing the situation to be what he wants it to be right now...put the kids and OW together in a familar situation...an easy way to ease the OW into their lives. But the problem is...it is forcing...and I'll bet that none of them will really enjoy it. Even to himself the WH is trying to make a success of the affair...it has to succeed to be worth the damage he has done to his family.

My WH and I ran a business together and when the A came out, I left him to deal with everything on his own...well, he brought in OW to fill in the gap (and to keep an eye on her)...but you know what...she wasn't me...she couldn't fill my shoes...it was the first of many miscomparisons he was to have between us...and eventually the contrast broke up the relationship. But it took time...so that's why I'm urging you not to give up...let time do it's work.

Meanwhile, I don't think you need to place the kids in the middle of all these any more then you can help...they are going through their own nightmares...don't make it harder on them...kids are smart...they sense how you are feeling...they know what is right and wrong...be strong for them.

Hi brokenhearted,
Sorry this is another tough time you are going through, but I'm sure you will get through this one just like you have gotten through all the rest.

I have to agree with buffy and Spacecase to leave your teens out of it. They probably will love their dad regardless--kids love their parents for WHO they are not for what they DO even if they are rotten losers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When they get bold enough to confront their dad, they will, even if it takes years, I too believe it should be their call. If they ask you, then tell them but to just dump your emotional pain on them would probably be too much for them.

Even if your sister did tell them that their father is a cheating scumbag, they probably would resent their aunt?!?!

Adult emotions are just that. Kids should not have to carry the burden of adult emotions, just my thoughts... ((((HUGS))))

There would be no point in the aunt telling the kids that he is cheating - they are well aware of that already. If the aunt tells them that their going with him to the family vacation spot hurt their mother's feelings, the logical question for them to ask would be, "Why did she let us think it was ok when it really wasn't?"

If this were happening to the family of a friend, and your kids were invited to go along with theirs on such a vacation, wouldn't you let them know that that would be hurtful to your friend, the BS?

If your H robbed a bank, and then offered to take the kids on a trip to Disneyworld with the proceeds, would you tell them that was ok? Telling your children that something is wrong or hurtful is NOT "putting them in the middle." It is a parent's responsibility to be honest with their kids, and to attempt to teach them the difference between right and wrong - and the boundaries of right and wrong do not shift just because the wrongdoer happens to be related to them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by brokenhearted:
Hi Space,
I just re-read your reply and just wanted to emphasize to you that I vented here and not to my kids. They have no idea how upset I am. Thanks again for your post, I appreciate your advice!
BH<hr /></blockquote>I know. I understand and feel your pain, and I'm sorry.

I just think we need to be extra-neutral with our kids in these things. I, too have struggled with that in my case, but realize their mother is always going to be their mother, and they will love her, no matter what she does. And I think that's the way it should be.

Nellie , I do understand what you are saying and I will think about sitting down with them and discussing the whole mess. They will be home tomorrow afternoon/evening, so I have some time to weigh out my options. Thanks Nellie.. you make some very valid points!

Buffy - It is hard to believe he can be so cruel. Julie used to be a substitute teacher, now she is a substitute wife and trying to be a substitute mother! It is nice to hear that sometimes the WS realizes that there is nothing like the real thing!

BTDT - Thanks...I hope I can get through this one too. They do resent my sister when she makes comments about their Dad (which she has done a few times). They know what he did was horrible, but they still love him. At some point, I am sure they will confront him too. Maybe there is a way to let them know how I feel in a way that doesn't make them feel guilty or put them in the middle.

It is all so confusing. I have a lot to think about before tomorrow.

As I see it right now, I could
1. put on a happy face and not let them now their "vacation"
hurt me or.
2. sit down with them when they get home and let them know exactly how I am feeling about their going
3. sit tight and wait to see if the opportunity presents itself to express my hurt to them.

Well, I will weigh out the options and try to figure this out. Thanks so much everyone for your support, opinions and advice. I appreciate your help!

BH

I just re-read my first post, and I thought I should clarify something. They left on Wednesday for this "vacation". When I was first told about this trip, my son asked my YD something about going to Maine w/ Dad. I asked him when they were going and he told me Wednesday to Saturday. Later on that night, through a phone conversation between YD and OW, I found out they were all going! This was Tuesday night. They left Wednesday! I had no clue they were all going and had no time to get used to the thought of them going. So, Wednesday I spent the day upset and angry. By Thursday, I needed to vent! Just wanted to let you all know that they are there right now. So, I can't change anything. The damage is done. Now I just have to decide if I should or shouldn't tell them how much it hurt me. Sorry for not making that clear in the initial post. I am not thinking too clearly!! Sometimes I feel like I am losing my mind!!
BH

[ August 23, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: brokenhearted ]

IMO,

No matter how you look at it, to have asked those chidren to NOT go simply because it would have been hurtful to brokenhearted is asking them to choose between parents. They can "choose" not to go and in essence "choose" Mom....or they can "choose" to go and "choose" Dad. To children no matter what age (imo) it is asking them which one they LOVE most. Mom or Dad? This is a position that no child should ever be placed in. Brokenhearted knows what is right and wrong and who is right and who has been wronged. She does not need the children to validate that by taking sides. She is the greater parent, morally. She knows that beyond a shadow of a doubt and she does not have to beat the character of her WS down with the kids in order to place herself higher. She is already higher. The children will accept it in their own time and act accordingly. God forbid that she say or do something that would estrange them from their father resulting in animosities later down the road. They would give her all the blame and Dad would come out God-like in their eyes.

And about the comment from Nellie about why wouldn't broken tell them something that was hurting her , can only be summed up by this .....

"Cause that it is what MOTHERS do". Mothers bear the hurt that would otherwise be given to the kids. We would take a bullet for them....we would bear the pain and hurt also. You put your own hurt and pain aside to do what is best for your children. It is something that mothers do...plain and simple. We bear it and then never ever mention it. (We don't lament about it later in life to them either.) We just accept it as something that we did for them because of the intense love that we have for them. They will figure it all out on their own. And, they will thank brokenhearted later for allowing them to make that discovery on their own.

If they do pop up with the question as to why she did not tell them, she can simply tell them that she was allowing them to make the discovery and decision for themselves. She was not going to influence that by her feelings being voiced. They needed to decide for themselves with no outside forces.

As always, JMHO

[ August 23, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

Thank you committed! Well said! You really hit the nail on the head. I would never do anything intentionally to hurt my children and telling them would most likely cause them to suffer. As a mother, I could never put them in a position to choose between us. It just wouldn't be fair to them. Nellie's response does make sense for certain situations, but I just don't think I could handle giving them more pain and confusion right now. So thank you for response and helping me to make the right decision.
BH

If I were about to do something that would hurt my mother, and she pretended that it didn't, I would be furious with her. I am still upset that she pretended she didn't mind taking me to feed the pigeons when she was terrified of birds. I know she had good intentions, but I felt that she was being deceptive - and that is obviously a much more minor incident. Mothers do NOT present false fronts to their children. I do NOT agree that that is something mothers should do.

This has nothing to do with which parent they love the most. This is about taking other people's feelings into consideration. There are lots of places you shouldn't go with your father, because they are inappropriate, inconsiderate, or for a variety of other reasons. What if, in a family that was raised in a religion that forbid gambling, the kids were invited to Vegas by a father who had left the family. If they chose not to go because they knew it would hurt the mother, would that mean they don't love the father as much as the mother? Of course not. Of course the children will still love their father - but loving someone does not mean you should condone their wrongful actions. As a matter of fact, it means the exact opposite.Sometimes if you love someone, you have to do whatever you can to discourage him from going down the wrong path, and you sure as heck don't have to accompany him on his journey.

I do not believe that spending time with the OW in the family vacation spot can in ANY way be construed as being what is "best for the children." What is best for the children is encouraging them to form a strong moral code.

One of the most important things to teach children is that loving someone does not mean going along with whatever they want, even if it is wrong, nor does it mean staying silent when they are doing something wrong, nor does it mean acting like everything is fine when it is not just to keep the peace.

One does not let children "discover for themselves" that hitting, or not sharing, or stealing, or any of a variety of other actions are wrong. Responsible parents specifically teach their children, by word and by example, that such things are wrong. Perhaps the children will not heed their parents, but at least the parents will have done their best to instill strong values.

Bh,

I just lost what I wrote,

I lost it again, well I will try again in the morning,

sorry you are hurting & good luck when the kids come home

Nellie1;
Well said!

Brokenhearted..

I am so sorry for the continued pain...it is though, my opinion that your husband as yet to sit back and process ANY of his responsibility in his actions of the recent past...that he remains quite fogged in...

And that people who can't sit and just "be"...because it just might be a little to painful...this is the guy who snuck around with the neighbor in the bushes...this is the guy who had some pretty volatile interactions...while you maintained grace and sanity....even while letting in the pain little by little so as it can't overwhelm you...Oh it will hurt...but it can't kill you...

sightseeing is a great way to avoid life...as is constantly wanting others around so it is not just the two and all the issues they have created....

hold tight...I don't think this has come to a head at all....

While your children love him they are also now aware of him being capable of becoming a stranger...and that there is a sense of not abandoning him in case old dad returns...you left because it was wize and had to be done for your sanity...they will hang in for many reasons...and none are meant to hurt you...they know "think" you are the strong and still sane one....dad on the other hand...not so sure...

hold tight friend.

peace to your new home...and may it soon be filling up with warm times and memories...
ARK

Nellie,

We ARE talking about "choosing". That is what it
would be asking the children to do. "Choose" which person to go with. This is not a case of "hitting" either. Anytime physical abuse and sexual abuse come into play things change. Yes, you tell the children in order to spare them from possibly being harmed in the same way. God, you tell the authorities so that NO ONE can ever be harmed by what the WS has done. You cannot report him for infidelities. It is something that he did that is morally wrong but not wrong as far as the law taking action. To compare the two would be comparing apples to oranges...imo.
It is not being deceptive to take your child to feed the birds when you are scared of them. It is putting your own need aside to place your childs above it. I know, I am terrified of birds but how could I have not taken my wonderful son to feed the birds when he LOVED it. We were in Vatican City....BIRDS BIRDS BIRDS. He loved it and I grinned and bore it. He is 17 now and remembers that fondly. "Remember Mom...when you took me to feed the birds?" I have photos that I cherish but also cringe when I look at them.

BTW....we let our children discover for themselves ALL the time. Again, we are not talking about touching a hot stove, running with scissors (gawd, remember that warning?)or what happens when people drink and drive. We are talking about letting them form their own opinion about their father and his moral behavior. You cannot form it for them or force feed it down their throat. It will backfire.

I am a firm believer in taking the High Road...besides the scenery is so much better.

As Always, JMHO.

brokenhearted,

I think it was inappropropriate of your WH to invite the OW to a place you once shared with him. This is a matter that needs to be taken up with him, not the kids.

The kids are simply going to the cabin on an outing as they are so used to doing. They will notice all by themselves that someone (YOU) is missing from the picture. They may not feel so comfortable going there again without you.

The kids can't be made to choose sides or be made to feel guilty for sharing time with their dad and the OW. After all you are separated and they now live together in a home they purchased together. D is pending it seems.

If you were to invite your childrens friends with you on an outing it would be no different. The pain it seems comes from them going to the cabin...a place you and your WH once shared together. Take it up with him, not the kids. It's not their intent to hurt you. Your WH however, is very insensitive to your feelings over this matter. He has apparently not even considered how you would feel about this.

Had they all gone someplace neutral would you feel the same way?

Committed,

Infidelity IS illegal in my state, as well as in many others - not that whether or not is illegal is relevant to whether it is wrong. You did not address the gambling analogy - gambling is obviously not illegal in Las Vegas, but that doesn't mean that it is not immoral.

I think it is very disrespectful to talk about "letting children form their own opinions" - as if we had any choice in the matter. Children will form their own opinions whether you let them or not. Responsible parents do NOT keep quiet is the face of wrong-doing - it is our responsibility to try to point out the difference between wrong and right - and it matters not if the person in question is their father, their sibling, or a stranger.

I guess you should consider yourself lucky that your son remembers feeding the birds fondly - I, on the other hand, feel slightly resentful that my mother was not honest about her feelings. I never wanted to be treated like a mushroom, and I won't treat my kids in a way that I would not have wanted to be treated.

The children are NOT being asked to choose whether to spend time with their father - they could certainly tell their father that they would be happy to go with him somewhere else, or without the OW, or under whatever conditions they chose to specify. Their father would then be the one choosing whether to spend time with his children under the appropriate boundaries.

Nellie - Your opinions have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate your sharing them with me. I believe there is a fine line here. Because of the age of my children, obviously they are well aware of the situation and the immorality of it. They chose to go there anyway. Whether or not they enjoy it is another story. I truly feel that if I burden them with my despair of them going, it will just give them more pain and confusion. They have already suffered enough. However, if they come right out and ask me how I feel, I would be honest with them. In that situation, I would not lie. I don't feel I am lying by not coming out and telling them exactly how I feel. Deep down, they know. My children actually did say to their father in the beginning that they would not see him if she was with him. So for awhile that is how they handled it. When and how that arrangement changed, I don't know. All of a sudden, the kids were going to their house for a visit, then spending the night, now this. How old are you children? Just curious if you have ever been in a situation when you had to make a choice similar and how they handled the radical honesty. Thanks again for sharing your opinions with me. As you can imagine, I have thought about nothing else for the last few days!

sing I look forward to hearing your opinion! Don't you just hate that!

ark Thank you! I love my new home and most of the time I feel like I am healing. You are absolutely right about the children being afraid of losing their father. They love him regardless of what he has done...unconditional love. They probably feel that if they don't go they will be replaced w/ her kids. What a mess.

Committed - Although Nellie makes some valid points, I have to agree that it would be making the choose. Like I said in my reply to nellie, there is a fine line. In this situation, I don't think it would be wise to tell my kids how I feel about their going. I am sure deep down, they know and feel bad enough. I think you are right when you say that we can't form opinions for our children. They know already and nothing I say is going to change how they feel. I would just be making it more difficult on them. Trust me, I have given this so much thought these past few days. Your opinions, Nellies, and everyone else, have helped me realize the right thing to do. so...thank you!

ba I probably would feel the same way even if they all went some place neutral. The reason is this....I know her and I know her children and the thought of my family and her family bonding as one wherever they were would be hard for me to deal with. The fact that they are at our summer place just makes it that much harder. I do intend to take it up with my H when they get back. I will never understand why he didn't let me know his plans, especially since I have custody of my son and would think he should get permission to take him. He has been insensitive to my feelings for quite a long time now. Divorce is pending.

To all - Thanks for sharing your opinions and advice with me. I have given a lot of thought to everyone's comments.

Nellie and Committed your opinions and advice were conflicting, but it helped me to analyze the choices I had and I thank you both.

phew, long post!
BH

But those days will get fewer and fewer and one day they'll cease to exist and every day will be a new beginning! Now if I could get myself to believe that!

brokenhearted,

Our six kids ranged from barely 3 to 18 when my H left us going on 4 years ago. I had no choice about him introducing the younger ones to the OW, since he didn't bother to tell me, or them, that he was going to do so ahead of time. However, I deeply regret allowing the kids to visit their father with her present - I received bad legal advice, and found out later that I could have prevented him from doing so as long as we were married.

Of my two oldest, one has not spoken to him since the night he left - she figured out he was having an affair as soon as he left, before I figured it out. The other barely speaks to him. Neither one has ever met the OW. The younger ones visit him on those rare occasions when he allows it. He does not allow them to visit simultaneously, since, as he admits, they annoy the OW. The kids know that I understand that they love their father, that I love their father and always will. When they are about to do something hurtful, I certainly tell them. Except for the youngest, who is still kind of clueless, they are well aware that their father was unfaithful, and that infidelity is wrong.

Wow, Nellie, six kids! God bless you. You must have had your hands full! I just don't understand how the WS can be so insensitive. I know they are in a fog, but come on!

I had planned on not saying anything about how hurt I was, but that plan went out the window.
They came home about an hour ago. Walked in and informed me they were going to Winthrop for the night and then tomorrow they are going to visit Dad again in Saugus. Well, it was more than I could handle. I started crying and my daughter was asking me why I was getting so upset and was this going to happen every time they went with them. So, with that I told her exactly how I was feeling. I made it clear to her that I wasn't trying to make her feel bad or forcing her to choose between me and her father, but that I needed her to understand my feelings. We had a nice talk. They both seemed to understand what I was saying and tried to reassure me. My son was there too but he didn't really say much. Before the conversation started he did say "Mom, I didn't even talk to Julie the whole time I was there." (go vincent!!) They just left a few minutes ago. I can't stop crying even though I know the talk went well. I just feel so sad. Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out. You know what they say about the best-laid plans!
BH

Hello BH,

I have been following the story of the trip to visit H and OW. What a lousy situation! I am glad that the opportunity arose for you to talk to your daughters. They need to hear how you really feel, how their father's choices have affected you.

I suspect that they WANT to believe that you are OK because that way they can pretend that the situation is not really so bad after all. It would be easier for them that way, a sort of emotional self-defense.

Has either one of your daughters said why they are intent on spending more time with H and OW? I wonder if they are taking the pulse, so to speak, of the relationship. You have said, haven't you, that they have known Julie for years. It is hard for me to believe that they condone what she and their father are doing. Surely they realize that she is responsible for causing terrible grief for your family.

I think that their respect for you will continue to grow as they watch the grace with which you handle an outrageous insult. Now that they realize the hurt you continue to experience, they have to respect your class. As they mature, maybe their understanding will too.

I wish that things were different for you! Take care of yourself.

Estes

Hi Estes,
Thanks for your response. My daughters and my son have all said that they want a relationship with their father and spending an hour or two with him just isn't good enough. He used to take them out to eat or to a game room or drive around. I guess they just felt if they were going to have a better relationship w/ him, they had to give in and visit at his house even if she is there. My son won't talk to her. My oldest daughter is living there but stays in her room (which is a small room in the basement) most of the day and has very little dealings w/ her. (she wasn't here for this conversation tonight) My youngest daughter does talk to her but finds it awkward. the last time she was at their house, she spent a good deal of time in the hot tub w/ her (which was hard to take!) You are probably right about the emotional self-defense. They have known and loved Julie for years. We were all were very close. I think that is why it is so hard for all of us to know how to behave. She has been part of all our lives for so long and now she is just the cause of so much pain and turmoil. At least they know how I feel now. They still went but they are not sleeping at his house tomorrow night as planned (tonight they are sleeping at friends). So some good came out of it! Thanks Estes.

Hi- It sounds like you have 3 GREAT kids! It makes me so sad to hear that some (please read- not ALL- I respect a great many WS on this forum!) inflict on their children when they have an affair. Funny hoe so many think they can compartmentalize everything and it just can't be done in a family. Everyone is affected by everyone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That being said, this situation if you are really open and honest about it and it sounds like you are, could be a great learning experience for your kids- what to AVOID when they get married and have children of their own! Not sure how to do this myself- I don't have kids- but I bet others on this site have some great ideas about that. Prob. most important thing is to provide as much stability for them as possible, so they know even if their dad is off his rocker, YOU will always be there to care for them. I admire your strength!!!

Hi Libbie,
Yup, they are great kids! I wish they didn't have to go through this. You're right, it affects so many people and they seem to be oblivious to it. Julie actually said to me once that their affair had nothing to do with me and they both loved me so much...makes you warm and cuddly all over doesn't it!! Unbelievable! I try to be as stable as I can be. The one time I remember not being stable was the night she kicked my H out of her house and then broke in to my house looking for him. I definately was not stable that night! LOL! But, most of the time I think I succeed. Even tonight, I think I handled the conversation fairly rationally. I didn't get hysterical, but I cried and explained how I felt in a calm tone. Even though it wasn't what I planned on, I am glad it turned out the way it did. Thanks for the support Libbie!
BH

Honestly (and I feel nervous sometimes writing this because I don't want to get flamed! ) I wonder about Plan A. I mean from a practical standpoint it makes sense. But realistically NO one can plan A w/o mistakes and having little blow ups. I just don't believe it is humanly possible in such a stressful situation: esp. if your WS is spewing lies and venom aimed towards you, it'd hard to even calmly tell them to stop disrespecting you! anyway I know you are past the Plan A stage but I think it's not healthy to expect to be a pillar of strength all the time, even for your kids. They may have even appreciated the honesty- kind of validates their feelings about the strange stuff going on!

Bh,

Well, you did what I was going to tell you if the topic came up.

My boys Know I don't like the OW, know I really don't want them to like her but if they do I am fine with it. In fact I keep after them so much that it was all right to like her, that they both got mad about it.

They ignor her for the most part. YS really hates her.

Hope you are all right and that your kids are too. I think it must be worse for you as you know her & your kids did also. WAt, has the same problem.

Hoping that things get better.

Hi Libbie - I know it seems like I am past the Plan A point since we now live in different states, but I still practice Plan A whenever we are together (birthday parties, etc.) or talk on the phone. I don't think our marriage can be saved at this point, but maybe he will see me as someone he likes to be around. Does that make any sense?? You're right it doesn't seem fair to keep being understanding, nice and no LB's and then get slapped in the face w/ one disrespectful act after another. It is weird, but it works for me to keep in Plan A. I feel better about myself and maybe someday, that feeling will show through to my H. I agree w/ you that it is not humanly possible to not LB once in a while. A person can only take so much and then you have to let it out. MOst of the time it works to come here and vent, but then there are those time when the LB just happens and you have no control over it. sorry I am going on and on. They did appreciate the honesty after a while. At first, it seemed like my D was going to have an attitude about the whole thing, but then she calmed down and she was very comforting and understanding. Thanks Libbie! I just read your post and will go back in a little while to respond to your question.

Hi Sing - My son hates OW too. He won't talk to her at all and ignores her as much as possible. He told me that she tried to yell at him yesterday! He just laughed at her and walked away. It does make it more difficult when all the parties involved know each other and have all been friends for years. It hurts so much. Even though it wasn't my original plan, I am so glad things turned out this way. I do feel a little better today. I slept pretty well last night (the first time all week!) Thansk sing!
BH

Nellie,

My goodness!!!!!!! The jails in your state must be near to bursting at the seams ....housing all those people who committed adultery! How does the state support them all??? Our state finds it a chore to support all the thieves, rapists, murderers, molesters, and all the other garden variety criminals. To try and take care of all those adulterers too....WOW....it just would not happen without an enormous increase in taxes. I think that they must place them with the people that are arrested cause they jaywalked.

While I am making light of the "law" issue I am in no way making light of "adultery". It is just not right in my eyes. But society has gotten quite lax in it being acceptable and it is not a punishable act ( at least not by the local sheriff's department).

Since when is it "disrespectful" to talk about letting kids form their own opinions? Of course we have some say in the matter! Otherwise a BS would not be so quick to tell them what a low life ....scum sucking...womanizing ....adulterer...that their dad is. That is what that is....wanting them to conform to that belief. (btw, this is just a generalization and in no way pointing at anyone) This would be forming their opinion for them with minutiae. We let them form their own with what they learn on their own. Her children are of a age where they do know right from wrong. She does not need to "drive it home".

Choosing is about staying home so that Mom does not get upset....or going so that Dad does not get upset. This is not about the children at all. It is about the parents setting and deciding on the boundaries. The WS was insensitive and it was totally warranted for brokenhearted to be upset that he took the kids there. It is because that it is with the person that he had the affair with. What if a divorce had been in the making due to something other than an OW? And a few months down the line he met someone and developed a relationship? Would it still be such an issue? Would it be hurtful for the kids to like that person. Would she be an OW?

Nellie, I think that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. We are both at opposite end of the sprectrum on this. Besides, it is brokenhearted's threat and might not be quite fair to her for us to be so strident in our postings.

As always, JMHO

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by committedandlovingit:


Since when is it "disrespectful" to talk about letting kids form their own opinions? Of course we have some say in the matter! Otherwise a BS would not be so quick to tell them what a low life ....scum sucking...womanizing ....adulterer...that their dad is. That is what that is....wanting them to conform to that belief. (btw, this is just a generalization and in no way pointing at anyone) This would be forming their opinion for them with minutiae. We let them form their own with what they learn on their own. Her children are of a age where they do know right from wrong. She does not need to "drive it home".

MHO<hr /></blockquote>I think there is a very big difference between calling the WS pond scum and pointing out that the actions of the WS are immoral and wrong. And no, kids don't know right from wrong if their parents sit silent in the face of wrongdoing like moral cowards. If the parents accept it, the kids will too. They learn right from wrong from their parents and from their parent's REACTION to wrongdoing. That was the point Nellie was making and she was right on.

[ August 25, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

I think that you had every right to be upset that he took OW and kids to your summer home. It's is thoughtless....but then again, he has been thoughtless through all of this right???

As for your kids....I am in the same boat as you...my kids know that I think the OW ruined our marriage. I have been divorced a month and we have been apart for a little over a year. My two boys have still not met the OW and they have not been to their father's new house that he shares with her and her son. My oldest started to waiver...he knows I got upset. I wasn't upset with him......it was the situation.....and we had a talk about it and I told both kids (14, 18) that I would support any decision regarding visiting their Dad. They both want a relationship with him but they want nothing to do with her. My oldest just left for college yesterday...I can't predict what will happen from here on in.....my youngest, still doesn't want to go there.

And yes.....it was in my temporary orders that they couldn't be with her and my XH untild we were divorced.....that was worth every penny. It took all of the pressure off of the kids.

My XH can't talk to the kids about his life....they don't want to hear it. He talks about sports and the job....that's it. Can't talk about the house...the new kid in his life or her. They don't want to know about it. Sometimes he slips things into the conversation in front of me about his neighbor.....I don't want to hear it either!!

My XH and I took my son to college yesterday along with my youngest. You would have never.....ever known that we were not a happily married couple bringing our son to school. It amazes me that we can do this....and I am so proud of myself that I don't snap at him or b*tch at him......because I know that I could. I can only hope that my over 12 hour day with my XH and my kids......bothered the heck out of her!

Keep yourseslf busy, when the kids go with him....do some things for you. There is life after all of this.....I am trying to look forward to it now. The pain of all of this...it was truly the worst thing that I have ever been through........and finaly facing that he was not coming home was very difficult....but you will get through all of this.....be strong...work on you....and love your kids......they know that your H is a dope...but it's Dad.....they will never look at her the way they look at you. (I have to keep telling myself this...too)

Stay strong....be happy.....look to the future!!!

BH<

I am really glad you had that chat with the kids. At least they can see how horrible this is their mother. But I keep wondering, couldn't your attorney make it where your husband sees the kids at a neutral place instead of exposing them to this moral cesspool? That would send a STRONG message to the happily esconced couple [who cares NOTHING about the wreckage they have left in their path] and to your children. I think it would do your kids good to realize that their dad's shacking arrangement is not morally acceptable by any standards. Any chance of such an arrangement?

And how is it that they can use your cabin? Is it jointly owned?

And BH, in case I have never told you this, I am in AWE of your grace and self restraint. You are a walking superb example of grace. If this had happened to me, I can assure you I would be in prison for murder right now.

committed and nellie - I think committed is right in saying "agree to disagree". There is no "right" answer in this situation. I think anyone has to handle the problem as it comes up and as they see fit for their own families and situations. As in my case, I had all intentions of not talking to them about it, but the circumstances that occurred when they arrived home made it absolutely necessary for me to do so. Everything worked out fine.
BH

(btw, this is just a generalization)

Melody,

committed was simply making a generalization.

I would agree that flaming your WS in front of the kids is done with the full intent of forming their opinion of the WS. They must be allowed to love that parent regardless of any moral misconduct.

I'm not saying it's wrong to inform the kids that the WS has done something immoral, but one's feelings towards the WS should be their own.The children should be allowed to form their own opinion of each parent. They should not be made to choose between parents simply because we feel that the WS has done something immoral.

broken hearted,

I'm glad things worked out for you. I hope it continues to. There are so many different opinions to listen to and derive a decision from for your particular circumstance.

I will quote committed once more and say "let's all agree to disagree".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ba109:
(btw, this is just a generalization)

Melody,

committed was simply making a generalization.

I would agree that flaming your WS in front of the kids is done with the full intent of forming their opinion of the WS. They must be allowed to love that parent regardless of any moral misconduct.

I'm not saying it's wrong to inform the kids that the WS has done something immoral, but one's feelings towards the WS should be their own.The children should be allowed to form their own opinion of each parent. They should not be made to choose between parents simply because we feel that the WS has done something immoral.

".<hr /></blockquote>Ba109,

Noone said they should be made to "choose" between 2 parents, so I'm not sure what your point is. The point is that it is a very different thing to make personal condemnations against the WS [he's a slime or a jerk, etc] and educating them about immoral behavior. It is the responsibility of the parent to educate them in that area, not to leave it up to them to "choose" what is right and wrong. Silence is just as bad as approval.

ba109,

Now I know why your screen name is so familar! Committedandlovingit often comes in with disruptive, sarcastic posts and you quickly come on and support him. Like a tag team act. Neither of you ever share your story, you only post to criticize and then support each others opinions when challenged. Here is another thread that you disrupted in the same manner:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018995;p=2#000023

I really hope you don't try and pull the same stunt here on brokenhearted's thread. It's really shabby. Who are you people?

Here's another:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019633

Mel

Once again...lighten up.

Since the subject matter of this thread is over (for all intent and purposes) I will use it to say this.

You've been so kind as to post links to other threads where we have had differing opinions. Thank you so much. I don't believe I've ever condemned your opinion in any of those threads. If I have, I truly apologize.

I have always stated that each and every one of us has our own opinion and are entitled to it. I would hate to think that members of this site would have to worry about sharing their opinions without being shamed, ridiculed, scolded, name called, etc.

There should be a free exchange of ideas and opinions here. At times we have to simply "agree to disagree".

broken hearted,

I apologize for this ruckus in your thread. I hope it is over.

Mel,

If you really feel the need to hash this out further, I'll be outside. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BA109,

There's nothing here to hash out, I thought it was important to point out your tag team act and the ruckus you have caused in other threads, which I did. Folks can read and decide for themselves.

felling so alone You are so right..he has been extrememly thoughtless during this whole thing. I wish I had put something in my temporary orders about not not allowing him to have the kids near her! My lawyer never even mentioned that option to me and I didn't know it was possible. Maybe because we lived next door and they already knew her??? I don't know.
It must have hard for you bringing your son to college w/ H. I am going to be in that boat next weekend. Actually, I am not even sure H is coming with us. On one hand I hope he doesn't, but on the other hand, it would be nice to think of her at home wondering about us!! thanks FSA, I am trying get on with my life and thinking about my future. As you know, it is so hard, but WE WILL SURVIVE!!

Melody - I will call my lawyer tomorrow to see if there is something I can do about setting some boundaries. The cabin is jointly owned and will be part of the divorce settlement (even though he thinks it won't be) He told me he didn't think the cabin should be part of the settlement because he put so much time and energy into building it...can you believe it???? It is like I wasn't there or went through the building years. Now that it is all finished, push me to the curb and let the new woman in to enjoy the fruits of our labor. I don't think so!! wow, sorry I kind of went off on a tangent there for a minute!!
Thanks for the kind words Melody! My sister tells me that she would be in prison too!! LOL! Like I tell her, if you were in this situation, you would probably act the same way.

ba, committed and melody - I am sorry this thread has caused dissention amongst you. Melody is one of my favorite people on this site! She is a wonderful person who helps so many people. Committed and ba, you both sound very nice too. Why don't you both post your stories so we can get to know you both better and know where you are coming from with your responses. You are right, we all have the right to our opinions! None of us want to be flamed either. You feel flamed by ML, Nellie probably feels flamed by you (I hope I am not speaking out of turn here..just MHO), and only because of the differing opinions! So, let us know about yourselves so we can get to know you better.

Thanks again for all of the great advice and comments. Now, I will start the uphill portion of the rollercoaster...until the next downhill comes about!
BH

BH WOW

I'm new here when I read this I said how thoughtless of your H. there are lesson hear that are being taught to your kids by everyone INVOLVED INCLUDING YOU.

You have to step up and do whats right, you are going to have to talk to them I have something you need to read this is what your kids are being taught.

They will live out this lie in there own lives wait and see.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

They are being taught to deny they feelings, They are being taught how to lie, look the other way, it's ok for your best friend to sleep with your H or boyfriend please read on.

Everyone gave good advice but, I have to go with Nellie on this one. What they are taught they will mirror, this can have an affect on there relationshipS. They may not want to marry after this, so forth and so on. Please click on the site above and read what lesson are being taught to your children.

MY PRAYERS & HEART, goes out to you. I purchased the book Surviving An Affair PLEASE GET IT IF YOU DON'T ALREADY HAVE A COPY.

MOST AFFAIRS DIE A NATURAL DEATH. IT'S IN THE BOOK A MUST READ

[ August 25, 2002, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]

brokenhearted,

I am glad that your talk with the kids worked out fine. Don't worry about my feeling flamed by various posters - I am used to that by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Nellie I agree with you 100% here read this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

BH,

I must apologize to you for causing such angst and disruption on your thread. I felt compelled to contribute (which I thought was what the forum was all about) because I have first hand knowledge of what happens when parents place their children in the middle. I did not realize that having an opinion dfferent from certain individuals would label me as disruptive and sarcastic. I do want to just tell you that I watched as my late husband lost all contact with 2 of his precious children because their Mother (who was the WS) decided that they had to "choose" whether they wanted Mom or Dad in their life. And, when I say "choose" I mean in the way that visits, calls, and any direct contact would cause their Mother to be upset. He was the BS, not the WS and we met years after their divorce. My H contributed his fair share too, so he was not entirely blameless. He knew what was right and wrong and he wanted the children to stand up and acknowledge that. In the scheme of things, it left 2 of his 4 children becoming defensive in regards to their Mother. He did not enlighten those children, he merely estranged them from himself. They did not want to hear anything against their mother, especially her moral fiber. I watched and sat with a man crying his eyes out when he realized that his 2 daughters were lost to him forever. These daughters were teenagers when this happened which is a very volatile stage in their life to begin with. He died just this past November so suddenly that he had no time to repair those relationships. I watched as 2 of his children said their goodbyes to their Dad but the oldest and youngest of the 4 were sadly absent. Someone, be it the Father or the Mother must an advocate for the children. They should never be placed in the middle of the divorce. Many times since then his 2 devoted children have called me because I am their connection to their Dad. I am their connection because their Mother still gets "upset and furious" when his name is mentioned. That was my position. That was why I thought that I had something to contribute. I appreciate that you thanked me and acknowledged that you knew what I was stating and that you stood on that very same principle.

Nellie, I am sorry if I have made you feel as if I was flaming you. I do sincerely apologize. That is why I was saying that we should just agree to disagee and to not fill up a very important thread with tirades.

Melody, I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot with you because I differed from an earlier opinion that you had and it reached some outrageous proportions. As to your curiosity about my situation, I can only imagine it would be to decide if I am "post worthy". In answer to that, I will tell you that I was a BS years ago with my first husband. I allowed myself to become so wrapped up in my marriage and love for my husband that I lost myself in the process. I lowered my moral standards (ignoring his affairs) but I had to remove myself from that marriage when it became evident that my 2 darling children were the ones that would suffer even more than I. I didn't have the luxury of a Plan A. I was too busy trying to find ways to feed and clothe my babies. The verbal abuse, the mental abuse and the physical abuse had to end and it was me that had to end it. Even though, we were separated I was spared the trials and tribulations of dealing with an EXH, parenting schedules, and uncollected child support because he was killed in an accident before all those things had to be addressed. So, you see Melody I am not merely talking the talk....I have walked that walk. I am now watching and listening as my very much loved brother goes through the very same agony. It is something that I would never in a million years wish on anyone.

Again, to BH....I apologize wholeheartedly.

Fondest Regards,
committed

[ August 25, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

Hi BigSis;
I am so sorry to hear that whole story. I only knew a small part of it.
My heart goes out to you. With a hug!

To C

If you read what Dr Harley had to say your first hand knowledge is incorrect please click on the link below and read.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

These are trained therapist that seen what denial
and all the things that go along with Adultry causes by living a lie, they have first hand experience with this as they deal with many many clients.

Not being sarcastic, this thing is serious.
The truth will set you free, not a lie, not denial, not looking the other way and pretending everything is ok.

MALC,

With all due respect, MY first hand knowledge cannot be incorrect because it is something that actually happened here. It is my own situation, not someone else's. My advice to someone else might be incorrect because their situation is different than mine. I am sure that could my H be here to do over, he would have curbed his tongue and had his 2 children with him. I know that I wish that for him. Opinions about a WS are our own. They should never be voiced to alienate children against a parent. We always teach them right from wrong, we should never turn them against their parents. I wonder, do you think that his children would want to hear about what is "right or wrong" now? Or would they just simply wish to have had a relationship with their father?

committed

MALC,
If I may; I would very respectfully suggest that since you have only recently joined us, you take a bit more time to learn and understand before you attempt to impart lessons? Perhaps asking questions might be more useful to your own growth right now?

With my sincere apologies for the usurpation of this thread.

[ August 25, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

MALC - The link you gave me refers to younger children. In my case, my children are older and I have done my very best to bring my children up with a solid moral background. They are well aware that what their father did was morally and ethically wrong. The issue here is not telling them how wrong their father is (because they already know that) but rather telling them how upset I am about them going to visit him and OW and her kids. My children know I am not condoning H actions.. not in the least. They have lived through this with me! Trust me, I am not telling them it is OK for my H to sleep w/ my best friend! Far from it. Like I said in a prior response..there is a fine line that should not be crossed. I truly believe that I had their best interest at heart by initially not sharing my feelings w/ them. I am glad that we talked last night and things turned out OK, but if we hadn't talked I don't believe I would have been teaching them that I condone my H's behavior. They are not stupid and they know what is right and what is wrong.

committed - thank you for sharing your story with us. My heart goes out to you! No need to apologize, but thank you! I appreciate your advice. Things didn't end up the way I intended, but it was a constructive conversation.
I think I handled it in a way that didn't put pressure on them to choose sides. I hope so anyway!

nellie - thanks for sharing your advice with me! Things worked out for the best.

Space - Thanks!

BH~~

Do you and your H talk anymore? Do you communicate by e-mail or by phone, or what?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TO SPACE

No I will not, just BECAUSE you say so. There is a thread that has a website that neither has bothered to read. if you are such in experienced MB than apply the principals correctly and not at your leisure.
If you would take out the time to read it and no where I'm coming from instead of being a sanctioning party. Yes I'm new here but I participate on other sites such as Abandonment recovery Devorce busting, plus I read the materials, here and ask valid question and has purchased the book so please don't tell what to say. Are YOU a moderator or are just like me. If I feel I have something to contribute I'm going to do that without your permission OK

Here please read

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

BH

It refers to all children he was using this one in particular. He said children he diDn't say age group young or old our teenagers are still I'll children.

I pray that everything will be ok

[ August 25, 2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MALC:
TO SPACE

No I will not, just BECAUSE you say so. There is a thread that has a website that neither has bothered to read. if you are such in experienced MB than apply the principals correctly and not at your leisure.
If you would take out the time to read it and no where I'm coming from instead of being a sanctioning party. Yes I'm new here but I participate on other sites such as Abandonment recovery Devorce busting, plus I read the materials, here and ask valid question and has purchased the book so please don't tell what to say. Are YOU a moderator or are just like me. If I feel I have something to contribute I'm going to do that without your permission OK

Here please read

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html<hr /></blockquote>MALC,
I'm sorry you feel you must react in this manner to my respectful suggestion.

I wish you the best of luck in your M and your life.

(Again with my apologies to BH for having converted her thread into a debate)

Malc,

Please continue contributing your opinions and experience. I don't believe space was trying to stifle you. We all learn from our experiences and sharing them thereafter.

We are all aware of the MB philosophies. They are wonderful guidelines for members to use for their own personal experiences. They are not however, gospel. They are simply opinions and guidelines for each of us to lean on when in need. Some of us may even "disagree" with some of them....and that's OK.

Everyone's situation is different and individual.

Hi Pepper,
My husband and I talk ocassionally on the phone. In fact we just talked a little while ago. I am still quite upset over the conversation, but I won't go into it <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I ended up LB'ing, which I don't usually do, so it has me a little on edge. We hardly ever see each other, but when we do, I stick with Plan A. I guess you could say, we are in Plan B with minimal contact.
BH

MALC - Space is a very wise and understanding man. He has helped me a lot and he was only trying to help you. Please take heed to his wisdom. We are all here to try to help each other, so please don't take offense to his suggestion.
I do agree that our teenagers are still children but you have to agree that they also have established a morals by the time they are 16, 19 ad 21! I do the best I can and have read and read and read.

Space - No problem. I know it was not done intentionally! You were just trying to help.

Bh

BH~~

Would your H ever consider meeting you in person (over coffee) to discuss "the kids and other matters of mutual concern" .... alone?

What do you think H would say to you if you asked him straight out to meet with you ... without her? I know you can only guess ... but what do you guess his answer might be?

(I am slowly cooking a scheme in my brain)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper - I think he would agree to meet with me, but of course I am not sure. He hasn't really done much that I would've thought he would do lately!! What do you have in mind??
BH

To Ba

I understand what you are saying, but I felt the manner in what he said like I had nothing to contribute I took offfense to that.

For me I try to apply everything that I read because so far it has made a big diiference in how My H and I communicate.

I can actually see my flaws when I commnucate.
I'm learning how to be My H friend , At first I would never had considered this.

I felt I was his wife, but I realized he needed a friend also.

Being a friend I find that I deposit into his love Bank because we laugh now, something we hadn't done in a long time he's begining to open up more and feel relaxed.

If you look at where My H and I are now, oppose to 2 yrs ago, we had no contact for 2 yrs. Its like we picked up where we left but on a different note.

We both consider each other feelings that's a big plus for us and we are mindful of what we say.

I can't believe that so far, I have excepted the fact that if he thinks the OC is his, even if I feel different in my heart, That's his decision.

Well ..... is there any way you could be with your H at this time and remain completely calm and smooth? Is that possible ...??

I cannot remember the logistics with the milage between where you live now ....

I think it might be interesting to meet with him ... and ask him for a few small favors. He probably has deep feelings of guilt festering inside (unless he's not even human, which I doubt). He is pretending to have a guilt-free life. I was thinking you could ask him to do some things for you.~~"Please could you go here, do this favor for me? I would appreciate it so much. I feel sort of lost sometimes."~~ I would tweak him some. Only if you can pull it off calmly, however. (I thinkyou can ... but you know best)

What is your H's parents stand on this new development?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ August 25, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Hi BH,
I'm glad everything worked out with your grown kids... If the children don't have their moral fiber ingrained by the time they are your kids' ages, then ??? I don't know if you can really expect them to "get it" until they have a little more life experience.

I have to agree with ba109 that every situation is different. & our kids are different and we know what they can and can't handle, what would make them feel manipulated or conflicted and what would not.

In BH's case, it sounds like her kids wanted to go on this "vacation" in spite of everything and evidently they were excited about it. I think they will probably continue with this type of behavior--making these kinds of choices--in spite of everything. BH you are right, your H has A LOT to do with putting these fun vacations out in front of the kids where they can't refuse... Trying to make them like OW through fun activities. I'm GLAD your son chose not to even speak to the OW. So see? He knows what's up...

At some point, we have to trust that we have done our jobs as parents and let the kids go, so to speak, feeling confident that they will make right choices. That's part of growing up!

They love their dad. Plain and simple. We are to teach our kids the way they should go (honor mother and father), but it doesn't mean that the parents will be honorable... What matters is all in the attitude.

I agree that having a heart-to-heart with your stbx--IF that is possible--is a terrific idea...

Good morning Pepper - Yes, I think I can be civil w/ H. Maybe having a heart to heart would be a good idea. Should this talk be about us or just asking him to help me out with some favors?

BTDT - Wow, you were up early this morning (5:14 am!) Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say! Unfortunately, I think you are right that they will continue to make decisions like this because of their father. They know what he has done is totally wrong, but they still love him and want to see him.

Every situation IS different and all children react differently. Thanks for your input BTDT!
BH

"Should this talk be about us or just asking him to help me out with some favors?"

NOT "about us" .... even if he brings it up, change the subject! (for now). Completely neutral.

Long term goal .... establish a pattern of the two of you having reasonably decent conversations alone.

My sister made a terrible mistake during her divorce (15 years ago) .... she never re-established her private communications with her X-H (New wife was always there) .... and when the time came for the kids to get married (several years later) .... my sis was odd-man-out for all the wedding plans ! She was included (sort-of) ... but the new wife had weaseled her way into the kids life via the X-H.

I would not do this as a way to resurect your M .... I don'teven know if that is what's best for YOU at this point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

BUT .... establish yourself as a living, breathing person who matters .... Right now, they are pretending you don't even exist! Don't let them do this ...

This would be a slow process that will drive you crazy .... I wish my sis had done this .... her life would have been much more peaceful if she had.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

What great advice! Thanks Pepper! I will give this some thought and establish a plan to meet w/ him. I think you are right, in their eyes I don't exist or matter. I can see Julie trying to weasle her way into every aspect of my kids lives too. This whole "bonding" weekend was most likely her concoction. At this point, I don't think it would be in my best interest to talk about "us" either. Too soon after so much damage. Thanks again Pepper! I appreciate your advice. I'll let you know what I decide to do.
BH

Make these meetings pleasant and neutral.

Eventually you might want to include your eldest daughter .... just the 3 of you ... then the other kids one-by-one ..... no Julie and no Julie conversations ! Gradually pretend SHE does not exist during these meetings. (VERY IMPORTANT there is no J-woman talk in your presence) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... turn the tables sort-to-speak! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You'll need to be very <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> to pull this off !

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ August 26, 2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Pepper - I think I can be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ! Cool as a cucumber...LOL! I'll try to set something up for next week. I hope he will do this! It sounds like a great plan!! Thanks again Pepper!
BH

BH.

I have to say I sort of do what Pepper is suggesting you to do. Of course, in my case the OW is 12 or 13 yrs younger than STBX & I and I didn't/don't know her butshe is never included in any discussion or decessions about our sons.

OS laughs at her & her familys attempts to make them seem like one big happy family. Her parents. who my sons have met a very few times, gives them gifts for bdays, Christmas, & other gift giving times, OS comes home laughing about how he gets paid to say hi.

YOur children have a history with Julie and unfortunaley no matter what she has done to you, they remember the history also, they love their dad however;you are the mom & they will always know & love you for it. Also the more gariously you can handle the mess, the more your children will love you for it. When we make everything harder for them, well you know who they will end up resenting. They can know how you feel about it, know it hurts you but alsoknow that you understand & support them in keeping their relationship with their dad.

Wishing things would get easier for all of us.

broken hearted,

Here is an interesting thread that might be helpful. The reply from worthatry gives good insight into what can occur when we tell our kids how we feel.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019509;p=2#000023

Just one persons experience with a similar situation.

BH
How are you...I will take your suggestons and everyone one elses. You know your children better than anyone else, do what you must.

To Space... Please accept my apology for coming off so strong I meant no harm OK.

BH... Pepper has some very good suggestions, I would follow her lead, becoming the loving and kind person. It does seems someone wants you out of sight out of mind.

You know our H. or wives can be very gullable at time like this, and can be easily manipulated by the OW or OM.

I would do as pepper suggested, be the nice kind loving person. I wouldn't talk relationship talks with him or discuss the OW.

Have you heard of a book called Divorce Remedy.
It talks about strategy, such as what pepper talks about becoming the person he once fell in love with.

Become a friend with a good ear, just being the complete opposite of what you've become.

My H had file for divorce back in 99, I contested I didn't want a divorce, and I was stalling fot time. I had the feeling he was being pressured of some sort.

My H was in a different relationship at the time,
he recently told me, he was presssured by this OW and he's glad he woke up before it was too late.

Our case was close because of no activity. Prayer changes things, it may be possible that your H is being pressured also.

Prayers Changes Things

Hi BH,
It's probably a good idea to get ahold of him when he's sober, too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks Sing, Ba, BTDT and MALC - Yesterday was a great day. We all went to visit my sister at her camp and had so much fun! I like Peppers idea too. I will call my H sometime this week to see if we can meet. The last time I talked to him I did LB so I am giong to wait a few days so I make sure I won't fall apart. When I do call him, I will call him at work so he definately be sober and will be able to talk without Julie around.

MALC - It sounds like your marriage is on its way to a great recovery! I don't know first hand, but I hear and read that it is a long road, so take it slow and cautiously. Best of luck and God Bless!
BH

Bh,

I ran across this site in my wanderings (do I dare say research)

http://www.successfulstepfamilies.com/home.php

anyway not sure if there is anything in it that might be helpful to you

as hard as it is, do any of us want our children in any more conflict than they have all ready been in. I know a part of me, okay large part realy wants my boys to hate the OW & to make her life a living h@@@ but then there is the mom in me that wants the OW to love my boys because even if they drive me crazy sometimes, I think they are 2 of the most wonderful creatures that God has ever made. And for them to be around someone on fairly regular bases & that person not care for them breaks my heart.

I guess what brought this home to me I watched the movie Stepmom not long ago. I cry through anything anyway & this movie kills me now. However, while I never want to have relationship with the OW, I couldn't help thinking or wishing my kids liked her like those kids did Julia Roberts in the movie & she them. It really hit home to me how sad it was.

So as hard as it is for us, I guess it is hard either way. I don't think I made any sense but it is homework time for YS. fun, fun

When I was at STBX's in Aug and all of her things were there I had a really hard time leaving girls. There was to be no co-hab going on, granted she wasn't there in the apartment but her stuff was there and the girls figured out that she had been living there and was hidden away while they were there.

They love their dad and he will always be their dad, but they don't have much respect for him for what he has done and the stupid mistakes and decisions he has made.

I am learning to keep my mouth shut, and not interfere, he does the damage all by himself.

Just my 2 cents!!
DAwn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sing and Dawn -
sorry it took so long to reply to your posts. I was away w/ the kids and just got back. Had a great time!!

Thanks so much for your responses. I checked out that link, sing, and it looks really interesting. I put in in my favorite list so I can go back and study it better when I have more time.

Dawn, that sounds just like the way my kids feel. They love their dad and want to have a good relationship with him, but they don't respect what he is doing. It is hard to explain and hard to understand, but I guess we just have to deal with it. they need their father, no matter what he does.

BH

BH
How have you been? I've been on the other site P/C
I was directed here to read a post. I was just wondering how are you did you ever meet with H?

Me I'm ok as you mention, this could be long and drawn out. One minute he says one thing, then next he say's something else. it's confusing me I'll keep you posted.

Hi Malc and Thanks for asking! I am doing OK. Had a few more incidents to deal with, but am learning how to put things into perspective. My kids were in a pretty bad car accident (they are OK but the car was totalled) and I had to call my H to come help w/ things. He was great. Since then, we have talked a lot, not about us or the A, just about the kids, the insurance issues, etc. Twice I have called his house hoping to talk to my daughter and "she" answered. It was very hard to talk to her and I had a hard time being civil. She was so pleasant it made me sick!

It is all very confusing isn't it. I hope things work out for you MALC. Please keep us posted. Thanks again for your concern! I appreciate it!
BH

Hi BH

I'm glad to hear that your children are ok.
I'm also glad your H was there being pleasant
towards you.

If you can, be as civil to ow as much as you can.
Kill her with kindness and the same for your H.

You don't want them seeing the other side of you.
I found out,when you vent on them, it brings them closer. So whatever you do, vent here I had to learn that the hard way.

H and I have been into nice conversation. Yesterday, I started a conversation, about me having more feelings, also me thinking H feelings being less for me.

H said you don't know how I really feel for you.
I explain to H, love is a action it's not what you say all the time, it's what you do.

I told H my love for him, I'm ready to pack up and move to his location. H said were would we live? I told him he can save money, we can get our on place. H said yes he can do that.H lives with his brother an family. I want my own if I move there.

I told H well think about it. H said ok he will give it some thought.I read a post here,it was posted by Mortorman I don't know if that's the correct spelling.

His plan B is working, his WS is turning around real quick. I'm thinking about pulling back myself.

In the begining my H initiated contact. Now I'm doing all the contact. I want to change that.
Do you think that's a good suggestion? Me pulling back after all, we do have good conversations.

Your bio says divorce has been filed ... I don't recall if it is final or not.

If it is NOT final ... next time you are forced to speak to her when you call Ralph, try this, "Hello. (Don't say her name) I need to speak to my husband. Would you put him on the phone please. Thank you." ...... Then silence. If she says anything ... and I mean anything else ... repeat, "I need to speak to my husband."

Broken record.

If you are not divorced he is your husband. Once you are divorced you can refer to him as "So-and-so's father."

Do not speak her name. This will be interesting.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 24, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Hi MALC - It sounds like you and your husband are moving in the right direction anyway. I don't know what to say about backing off since it does sound like he doesn't mind the contact. If he was getting irritated or you were fighting alot, then I would back off. But if you are considering it just to see if he will initiate the contact, then I am not too sure if you should. He could take the backing off as a sign that you are not interested in reconciliation???
I'm not too good at giving advice, so don't take my word for it! Just my thoughts on the matter. Maybe you could try backing off a little but just for a few days to see if he tries contacting you. If he doesn't, then initiate it again and see what happens. Sorry I couldn't be more direct with my advice! Like I said, I'm not too good at giving advice (probably because what I have done hasn't helped my marriage!) If Pepper reads this, maybe she will offer you some advice...she is VERY good at it!!

Hi Pepper! Our divorce is not final and I LOVE THAT IDEA!! I will do that! She will freak! I wish I had thought of that! I am going to have to call tonight just to try it out! LOL! If you have a minute, could you read MALC's post to me above, and offer her some of your wisdom? I am soooo bad at giving advice! Thanks Pepper!
BH

Hi BH
You know I was thinking the same thing if I back off he would think I'm not interested in reconciling.

As a matter of fact my sister gave the very exact advice you gave she also implied it could be dangerous.

I really like the advice, pepper gives you very insightful. I hope she reads my reply to you and give me some assistance it would be helpful.

I really like what she said about when you call, may I speak to my husband I like that.

My H and I have no children so it was very easy for H and Xow to pretend I didn't exist. It didn't work most of there fights were behind the fact H still being married to me.

So no matter how hard she tried xow knew I exist.
I will keep you posted ok.

[ September 25, 2002, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]

Hi Malc,
I hope things work out for you! Stay strong and trust your instincts! I have a good feeling about your relationship!
I loved Pepper's idea too. I am going to call there tonight and I am actually hoping she answers just so I can try out that line! It should be a hoot! I was going to try it out last night, but got sidetracked (my son locked my keys in the car at school) and forgot all about it!
Take care MALC!
BH

HI BH

I read your other post, I'm glad you did it.
See OW was surprise you did this, you caught her by surprise. Watch, the next time you call, it will start to irritate her.

In my case, whenever I would get the number and call my H, I would say may I speak to my H please. XOW would get furious. I could hear xow in the background (I hate that). I would say to H she should have thought about that before she became entangled in our lives.

I was hopeing pepper read my repy to your post.
Maybe she could give me some advice. I found myself being short with H today, a conversation we had, he seems to justify and rationalize everything these days.

H seems to be very egotistical thanks to me.
I just keep praying his Heart and mine will change for the better.
Good Luck