To C

If you read what Dr Harley had to say your first hand knowledge is incorrect please click on the link below and read.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

These are trained therapist that seen what denial
and all the things that go along with Adultry causes by living a lie, they have first hand experience with this as they deal with many many clients.

Not being sarcastic, this thing is serious.
The truth will set you free, not a lie, not denial, not looking the other way and pretending everything is ok.

MALC,

With all due respect, MY first hand knowledge cannot be incorrect because it is something that actually happened here. It is my own situation, not someone else's. My advice to someone else might be incorrect because their situation is different than mine. I am sure that could my H be here to do over, he would have curbed his tongue and had his 2 children with him. I know that I wish that for him. Opinions about a WS are our own. They should never be voiced to alienate children against a parent. We always teach them right from wrong, we should never turn them against their parents. I wonder, do you think that his children would want to hear about what is "right or wrong" now? Or would they just simply wish to have had a relationship with their father?

committed

MALC,
If I may; I would very respectfully suggest that since you have only recently joined us, you take a bit more time to learn and understand before you attempt to impart lessons? Perhaps asking questions might be more useful to your own growth right now?

With my sincere apologies for the usurpation of this thread.

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

MALC - The link you gave me refers to younger children. In my case, my children are older and I have done my very best to bring my children up with a solid moral background. They are well aware that what their father did was morally and ethically wrong. The issue here is not telling them how wrong their father is (because they already know that) but rather telling them how upset I am about them going to visit him and OW and her kids. My children know I am not condoning H actions.. not in the least. They have lived through this with me! Trust me, I am not telling them it is OK for my H to sleep w/ my best friend! Far from it. Like I said in a prior response..there is a fine line that should not be crossed. I truly believe that I had their best interest at heart by initially not sharing my feelings w/ them. I am glad that we talked last night and things turned out OK, but if we hadn't talked I don't believe I would have been teaching them that I condone my H's behavior. They are not stupid and they know what is right and what is wrong.

committed - thank you for sharing your story with us. My heart goes out to you! No need to apologize, but thank you! I appreciate your advice. Things didn't end up the way I intended, but it was a constructive conversation.
I think I handled it in a way that didn't put pressure on them to choose sides. I hope so anyway!

nellie - thanks for sharing your advice with me! Things worked out for the best.

Space - Thanks!

BH~~

Do you and your H talk anymore? Do you communicate by e-mail or by phone, or what?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TO SPACE

No I will not, just BECAUSE you say so. There is a thread that has a website that neither has bothered to read. if you are such in experienced MB than apply the principals correctly and not at your leisure.
If you would take out the time to read it and no where I'm coming from instead of being a sanctioning party. Yes I'm new here but I participate on other sites such as Abandonment recovery Devorce busting, plus I read the materials, here and ask valid question and has purchased the book so please don't tell what to say. Are YOU a moderator or are just like me. If I feel I have something to contribute I'm going to do that without your permission OK

Here please read

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

BH

It refers to all children he was using this one in particular. He said children he diDn't say age group young or old our teenagers are still I'll children.

I pray that everything will be ok

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>TO SPACE

No I will not, just BECAUSE you say so. There is a thread that has a website that neither has bothered to read. if you are such in experienced MB than apply the principals correctly and not at your leisure.
If you would take out the time to read it and no where I'm coming from instead of being a sanctioning party. Yes I'm new here but I participate on other sites such as Abandonment recovery Devorce busting, plus I read the materials, here and ask valid question and has purchased the book so please don't tell what to say. Are YOU a moderator or are just like me. If I feel I have something to contribute I'm going to do that without your permission OK

Here please read

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MALC,
I'm sorry you feel you must react in this manner to my respectful suggestion.

I wish you the best of luck in your M and your life.

(Again with my apologies to BH for having converted her thread into a debate)

Malc,

Please continue contributing your opinions and experience. I don't believe space was trying to stifle you. We all learn from our experiences and sharing them thereafter.

We are all aware of the MB philosophies. They are wonderful guidelines for members to use for their own personal experiences. They are not however, gospel. They are simply opinions and guidelines for each of us to lean on when in need. Some of us may even "disagree" with some of them....and that's OK.

Everyone's situation is different and individual.

Hi Pepper,
My husband and I talk ocassionally on the phone. In fact we just talked a little while ago. I am still quite upset over the conversation, but I won't go into it <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I ended up LB'ing, which I don't usually do, so it has me a little on edge. We hardly ever see each other, but when we do, I stick with Plan A. I guess you could say, we are in Plan B with minimal contact.
BH

MALC - Space is a very wise and understanding man. He has helped me a lot and he was only trying to help you. Please take heed to his wisdom. We are all here to try to help each other, so please don't take offense to his suggestion.
I do agree that our teenagers are still children but you have to agree that they also have established a morals by the time they are 16, 19 ad 21! I do the best I can and have read and read and read.

Space - No problem. I know it was not done intentionally! You were just trying to help.

Bh

BH~~

Would your H ever consider meeting you in person (over coffee) to discuss "the kids and other matters of mutual concern" .... alone?

What do you think H would say to you if you asked him straight out to meet with you ... without her? I know you can only guess ... but what do you guess his answer might be?

(I am slowly cooking a scheme in my brain)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper - I think he would agree to meet with me, but of course I am not sure. He hasn't really done much that I would've thought he would do lately!! What do you have in mind??
BH

To Ba

I understand what you are saying, but I felt the manner in what he said like I had nothing to contribute I took offfense to that.

For me I try to apply everything that I read because so far it has made a big diiference in how My H and I communicate.

I can actually see my flaws when I commnucate.
I'm learning how to be My H friend , At first I would never had considered this.

I felt I was his wife, but I realized he needed a friend also.

Being a friend I find that I deposit into his love Bank because we laugh now, something we hadn't done in a long time he's begining to open up more and feel relaxed.

If you look at where My H and I are now, oppose to 2 yrs ago, we had no contact for 2 yrs. Its like we picked up where we left but on a different note.

We both consider each other feelings that's a big plus for us and we are mindful of what we say.

I can't believe that so far, I have excepted the fact that if he thinks the OC is his, even if I feel different in my heart, That's his decision.

Well ..... is there any way you could be with your H at this time and remain completely calm and smooth? Is that possible ...??

I cannot remember the logistics with the milage between where you live now ....

I think it might be interesting to meet with him ... and ask him for a few small favors. He probably has deep feelings of guilt festering inside (unless he's not even human, which I doubt). He is pretending to have a guilt-free life. I was thinking you could ask him to do some things for you.~~"Please could you go here, do this favor for me? I would appreciate it so much. I feel sort of lost sometimes."~~ I would tweak him some. Only if you can pull it off calmly, however. (I thinkyou can ... but you know best)

What is your H's parents stand on this new development?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi BH,
I'm glad everything worked out with your grown kids... If the children don't have their moral fiber ingrained by the time they are your kids' ages, then ??? I don't know if you can really expect them to "get it" until they have a little more life experience.

I have to agree with ba109 that every situation is different. & our kids are different and we know what they can and can't handle, what would make them feel manipulated or conflicted and what would not.

In BH's case, it sounds like her kids wanted to go on this "vacation" in spite of everything and evidently they were excited about it. I think they will probably continue with this type of behavior--making these kinds of choices--in spite of everything. BH you are right, your H has A LOT to do with putting these fun vacations out in front of the kids where they can't refuse... Trying to make them like OW through fun activities. I'm GLAD your son chose not to even speak to the OW. So see? He knows what's up...

At some point, we have to trust that we have done our jobs as parents and let the kids go, so to speak, feeling confident that they will make right choices. That's part of growing up!

They love their dad. Plain and simple. We are to teach our kids the way they should go (honor mother and father), but it doesn't mean that the parents will be honorable... What matters is all in the attitude.

I agree that having a heart-to-heart with your stbx--IF that is possible--is a terrific idea...

Good morning Pepper - Yes, I think I can be civil w/ H. Maybe having a heart to heart would be a good idea. Should this talk be about us or just asking him to help me out with some favors?

BTDT - Wow, you were up early this morning (5:14 am!) Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say! Unfortunately, I think you are right that they will continue to make decisions like this because of their father. They know what he has done is totally wrong, but they still love him and want to see him.

Every situation IS different and all children react differently. Thanks for your input BTDT!
BH

"Should this talk be about us or just asking him to help me out with some favors?"

NOT "about us" .... even if he brings it up, change the subject! (for now). Completely neutral.

Long term goal .... establish a pattern of the two of you having reasonably decent conversations alone.

My sister made a terrible mistake during her divorce (15 years ago) .... she never re-established her private communications with her X-H (New wife was always there) .... and when the time came for the kids to get married (several years later) .... my sis was odd-man-out for all the wedding plans ! She was included (sort-of) ... but the new wife had weaseled her way into the kids life via the X-H.

I would not do this as a way to resurect your M .... I don'teven know if that is what's best for YOU at this point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

BUT .... establish yourself as a living, breathing person who matters .... Right now, they are pretending you don't even exist! Don't let them do this ...

This would be a slow process that will drive you crazy .... I wish my sis had done this .... her life would have been much more peaceful if she had.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

What great advice! Thanks Pepper! I will give this some thought and establish a plan to meet w/ him. I think you are right, in their eyes I don't exist or matter. I can see Julie trying to weasle her way into every aspect of my kids lives too. This whole "bonding" weekend was most likely her concoction. At this point, I don't think it would be in my best interest to talk about "us" either. Too soon after so much damage. Thanks again Pepper! I appreciate your advice. I'll let you know what I decide to do.
BH

Make these meetings pleasant and neutral.

Eventually you might want to include your eldest daughter .... just the 3 of you ... then the other kids one-by-one ..... no Julie and no Julie conversations ! Gradually pretend SHE does not exist during these meetings. (VERY IMPORTANT there is no J-woman talk in your presence) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... turn the tables sort-to-speak! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You'll need to be very <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> to pull this off !

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper - I think I can be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ! Cool as a cucumber...LOL! I'll try to set something up for next week. I hope he will do this! It sounds like a great plan!! Thanks again Pepper!
BH