Seems she reallt is gettting more determined by the day for final seperation...she is very angry..where she let me briefly kiss her and hug her.. noe a passing touch sets her off..she is getting very upset and says that she cant be around me anymore.. fog?? i dont think so.. she says that either I move out of house or she moves out of house and will take the girls... I really cannot stop her since if it goes to court .. she will get them.. no matter .why?? because they are girls,, I have been trying hard not to LB... and be nice,,, but she is soset in her ways that this is over. will continue with Plan A.. and try to meet en whre able. but if she does not want to be near me how can I possibly do that?
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

marathonman,

This is a triage time for you and your kids. Forget about what she does or would do. First ... DON'T LB, but it doesn't mean you have to be doormat. Calm at all time and just state the fact and don't budge on your stand. Second .... don't move out !, she has no right to kick you out. Third ... PUT THIS ON YOUR MIND: She has no right either keeping the girl from you. Whatever you sttle with her now will be use as temporary custody. SO if you let her have 100% and you are only has visiting ... you will be screwed. Fight for your right, remember OM might be around your kids too !.

Now, it is not about M anymore, it is about protecting yourself. Any consession you make with her it has to be with no M mind frame. She will use anything to get you hint of reconsile and so on ... toward her advantage. Remember she is in the fog and full of selfishness ... Don't give any inch to her and hope that would change her mind later ... DON'T. I made mistake ... I should of go for 100% while I could, I have compassion and second guessing and let her have 30% ... now we have 50-50 and create a lot of headache & heartache for my 2 D. The court would not listen for infedelity outcry but Family Service would !. Make sure you are arm with information to show that you are better position to take care of your kids .... unless you don't want them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .
-rh-

Redhat!!
tried hard today to wake up and have a great day.. we ended up with major fight.. with me possibly with a black eye... she punched me in the glasses..On the idea of staying put.. financially it would be better off for me to move out..I'm beginning to think that is the right thing for me to do for the sake of the girls... no real disruption.. aside from me, their dad.. out of home scene. she has no interest to reconsile.. actually quite the opposite..but I see what you mean forget about the M.. and worry about MM..
I would never get full custody.. in canada its NO fault..nso the infedility angle won't work and she know that. This thing aboutv the Fog.. if she seems so serious about leaving and so angry..why would she be in a fog.. she does not want me around...you know.. I am answering my own questin here... I never really tried with all my heart..On the custody..the most I will get is 50/50.. and if she pushes for full she will win in court. simply because they are girls..
thanks for the help.. and please keep checking in on me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marathonman:
<strong>.. with me possibly with a black eye... she punched me in the glasses.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Physically or figuratively ?. If it is physical, I hope Canada has R.O !, put one on her and get her to move out !.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>On the idea of staying put.. financially it would be better off for me to move out..I'm beginning to think that is the right thing for me to do for the sake of the girls... no real disruption.. aside from me, their dad.. out of home scene.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had that thought too .... I was planning to live on my car ... I figured that we can't afford for either of us move out. I figured that it is the best financially and for my 2 D for me to move out. I planned out that I could stay in the office 'till late, I love to work and toying around anyway. Take shower in the gymn, doing laundry in the laundrymat, I don't need to cook since I could get bargain lunch at the downtown and save some for dinner in the office refriged ... on the cold night (rememer I live in nothern califonia city, no snow ... I could drive down far just to leave the get the heater going. I enjoy driving anyway and sleep in the play room during lunch in the office. I AM GLAD THAT I DIDN'T DO THAT AND THANKS TO WAT. I have to take care of me first before I could help my 2D and possibly my WW at that time. CA has also the same law, assume 50-50 for CS then they review it. Don't you know how devistated your 2 D are if they know that their dad is moving out ? ... for what ? ... is he doing something wrong here ? ... is he guilty for my mom's A ? ... does he love us at all ?. The moment you move out, your WW will bad mouth and put lies w/o you be able to defend yourself. Also what do you teach your 2 D ?. Run away ?.

IMVHO, you agree to move out if you are done with your plan A and you fillin most of her ENs such that when you move out she will miss you. Even with that reasoning, you still have to cross your finger that MM will not pick up the slack and fillin ENs that you just have vacated. Or you are able to avoid LB at all.

-rh-

Marathonman reading your thread, I thought that was me talking.
My wife kicked me out, actually didn't have honesty to face me, got served r/o without any basis, just her saying she was in fear of what I might do once served papers, she filed for dv 4 days later,om filed for dv 5 days after my wife did (remember this isn't about infidelity as she says) My wife has been well coached on how to do things, with r/o there is no chance to reconcile, wife is keeping my kids away from me ( stay at home dad here ) we had hearing on r/o a week after being served, I was still in shock, she was very well prepared, she came up with stuff that happened 17 years ago and was misleading with other information. Remember she allowed me to raise our 2 daughters since birth, but now I was a danger to them.
She has kept me from my own neighborhood, were people who lived there had seen how active I was with my kids, most parents didn't know my wife, never saw her.
She has very large support for divorce, her mom is all for it, I'm sure new man is too.
She seeks gets domestic abuse counciling, I have to go to counciling I agreed to do in order to see my kids I raised, my counciler reports to her attorney ( I have nothing to hide ), my wife wanted to talk to my counciler, but counciler thought that was asking way,way too much.
wife is talikng to parents that I know, that don't know her about how abusive I have been.
Wife wants me to go to anger manegement and admit I am abuser, which I would do If I didn't think my wife would use that against me in court, I have trusted her too much.....
I went to mediation a week ago, 1st time to see wife in 2 months, .....she didn't even look at me....... like I wasn't even there........
maybe she just felt too guilty.............
maybe not...........
when I wanted equal parenting time......she said no.......
when I wanted to be able to go to school she said no.........
that's it in a nutshell..........

t REDHAT
Guess I have to go and refreash myself on WAT..how do I link into it? The thing about moving out really kills me....where is dady going ? what did he do? why is he leaving us?? they will be devastated..The tears are rolling down my eyes here.. this is all so wrong..I know that in the past I never attended to her EM at all times.. but I did love her.. It was her that had the EA/PA.. she says no sex at all.. never really had a chance to start..Not sure where I will go..If it does hapen she is going to have to move fast and seperate all assets so I will have the money to have a fresh start..but I just dont want my 2D to thnk that I left.. AND THEY WILL!!!! she says that they wont and she will explain...I will accept nothing less from 50/50.
But If I can get .. a solid PlanA going which I haver not... MortarMan. who tried so Hard to help me would be so pissed off at me. I have not heard from him.. maybe he has given up on me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The moment I start to Plan A.. she says something that amkes we wont tofight back..she wont let me near her at all so I cant fullfil and EN at all..Its all know about how soon we can make this happen.. she says Ive been dragging my feet since new years and have not gotten over the fact she wants a seperation..Plan A still trying with no LBS today..

Rufusfirefly.. I have not been PA to her. said some mean things.. but we all say things to each other.. that is still no excuse.. thats wherthe lack ogf EN comes in and why she started with the OM..I agree that I have had problems dealing with stress..and would agree to AM coucelling..but that fact is she does not love me or want to be with me..she will never have a R/O since she does not want my 2d kept from me.. they love their dad too much..
fact here is that I need to find a way to get her to see through the fog and let us try to at least see through the end of the tunnel..and a better life for Mr&Mrs MM... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

MB'ERS
I need to put all this in perspective:
She says she does not love me...does not want to live in an unhappy house..with 2D and me. does not want to learn to love me. does not want any ENs met from me..says that if I go she will be very supportive of girls to paint me in best light..but in reality that is not whatc they will see.. daddy left us .. why??
she does not want to try coucelling
she does not want to try to get along
she does not want to talk about how we can live together form a hapy house..I dont want to sound defeatist but with a very good Plan A and No LBs.. it would just make things more peaceful.. but her heart is so set on seperating that is seems hopeless.. I just get the feeling that ecevn though OM according to nher is out of piture .. she wants to seperate so she can starts something with him guilt free..
I cant make her love me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> so what do I do to win her back?

I do not know what you can possibly do to win her back, beyond just looking after yourself, and trying to find happiness within yourself (which according to most MBers is supposedly attractive). It didn't work to bring my H back to me, but maybe it can for you.

But, here is the real reason I am posting to this thread: DO NOT move out of your house. If your wife is so dead set on separating, she can move out. She doesn't want to and isn't willing to work on the relationship, and you are. The quitter should leave, not the one who still wants to work to save the relationship. I especially don't think you should leave because of your fear of the kids thinking you left them behind. You can't be sure what light your W will portray you in to them if you leave. STAY STAY STAY and tell her to leave if it's so important to her to separate. For now, are you still sleeping in the same room? If so, separate by living in separate bedrooms, preferably on separate floors. At least where I live, that is also considered legal separation (a necessary step towards divorce).

To this day, I wonder if things would've been different if I had refused to move out and stayed at home.

I say don't go.

Take care,

Jen

There is no specific link, they reply to me and send me 2x4 the same way I did to you now. Unless you are endangering your W & 2 D by staying ... physical abuse or verbal abuse (unable to hold your anger) ... you have to stay, no choice. You have to fight for yourself first before you could fight for your M. Having say this, you should stil concentrate on Plan A (show changes), absolutly NO LB and fillin ENs a s much as she allow you to ... if fillin ENs become annying behavior or she rejects you, you should stop it.

If you can't handle no LB then you have an issue that you have to take care first before you could try to save your M.

-rh-

JEn brown .. thanks for the input.. everyone is telling me to stay and ues if I do go the girls are going to think that I deserted them..She is talking aboyut leaving and will take the girls with her..it is so important that we sepoerate .. she is saying by the end of the month .. one of us wil be gone..she says dont touch me.. so no ENs being met.. she says thatit is over.. " The ship has sailed".. get with it...
we have not been in the same bed for over a month and a half..she is in the livingroom on a hidabed..I dont know how to find true happiness
and fix myself and build confidence which all the women here says that is what they liike in a man..simply because I am focusing on the M... past advise has been to forget the M and fix me..its hard to concentrate.. but i am doing my best..JEN>> the thing is that he A.. was short lived so she says and its over.. although Om is still around..the main point is that she dont love me and wants nothing to do with me...no reconsiliation possible.. at least I want it.. she says no way! I will continue to stand my ground on staying.. however if there is a seperation.. financially it would be better for me in starting a new life away from her..but your right she is the leavor.. let her go and find out how hard it is!!
REDHAT .. no abuse to them.. just alot of stress all around..By staying and her leaving I will also be in a empty house and paying for it..
she palns to never come back..so my main question is why put myself way in debt..when I can be in an aprtment at lewast for now regrouping to start a new life.. if she wants me back she can call..what the use if she does not want me anyway..I guess the only thing is that I have to stay to show the girls that I amm not deserting them and the cause of destoying their lives.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

REDHAT..
if she wont let e fill in ENs. and is getting annoyed.. she says no matter how good I am she is till leaving..what to do.. the only thing I can guess is that her and OM..are still talking and palnning a reunion which ay include living together some day very soon..so just try plan A and dont EN her what so ever.. she hates it if I see her naked in the bathroom coming out of the shower.. just goes nuts...but we only have one .. and everyone has to get ready in the AM.. I know there has to be a way to save the M..and get her back on track.. everyone says start with a good paln A..PLEASE PLEASE keep in mind that she was leaving me anyway the OM is apparently a seperate issue..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marathonman:
<strong>...so my main question is why put myself way in debt..when I can be in an aprtment at lewast for now regrouping to start a new life.. if she wants me back she can call..what the use if she does not want me anyway..I guess the only thing is that I have to stay to show the girls that I amm not deserting them and the cause of destoying their lives.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You already answering your own question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . The second most important is for you down the road could say "I try my best and put my M more important than anything including $". let her do all the work and move out.

About fillin ENs, it is not plan A !, not even NO LB is a plan A. Plan A is for you to show you are a change man. You could show it via your actions to your D and people around you. NO LB is a requirement for any plan and forever. Fillin ENs is an attempt to raise up LB$, if she rejects you then you have to honor her wish otherwise it becomes an LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

2x4 .... IMHO, You should not listen to her fogesse ... she wants you right where she wants you to be. WS uses all words, actions, excuses, lies and decefit even to themself ... to prolong their A !. Here is a link to check.

-rh-

Listen to rh, he knows what he's talkin about!
I have been following your story and it is kinda similar to mine. I found out about H's A 1/03 and it has spiraled down ever since. I had big LB problem, but now it is just a matter of us living in the same house. No talking to each other and staying in seperate rooms (sleeping and just sitting) Now I don't know if H is still having A or is getting back with XW.

The thing is, YOU DON'T LEAVE. I told H same thing, "if you're not happy, you need to leave". Now he just sleeps here, that's all. And I'm starting to be ok with it. I don't follow him and I really don't care where he is at this point. All I know is I wish it were over with already. But these things take time and I know I am not leaving this house.

I know it's hard. I have a wonderful D and I know that I am doing the best I can for her sake (and mine). I have started doing more things with her. She brought home report card with all A's and B's! I know there must be something I'm doing right there! So keep your chin up and try not to react to WW. It can be done. Just try to step back and watch. that's all you can do. Distance yourself from her by not reacting to her.

REDHAT
she is spending the afternoon on the phone looking for aprtments..she will leave and take the girls.. if she says she will.. you can bet on it.. shes going.. no bluffing..I dont really know if the A is still on.. she says no..but still sees him.. I have gotten a few of those lines..but she is standing her ground and no admitting it.. no mater what the girls are going to be upset.. by me saying that i will move out is that if I am by myself in the empty home..I'll be miserable..I cannot stop her from taking the girls..and leaving..this is so trying with her being so secretive..try to plan A.best I can...even though it most likely wont help..no fill ENs.. thanks...again.. try to keep with the staying put...but what is the real purpose for staying put... and not moving...if she is sick of me an dwants nothing to do with me... what amm i doing by staying??... just making matter worse for MM..she isn't coming back..idf she does it would be a miracle..
Thanks
I
HANGING ON

thanks to you as well..I dont even think my wife would go for that.. you see she really dont love me..and can't wait to get apart..so again.. On one hand I want her to get the H$LL but on the other hand I dont want to hurt my chldren from having them move with my WW..yet again if I leave my 2d will be devastated by dad leaving..either way I'm scre^ed..she is already in another room..
but why stay and take the agony of being totally alone,,,,I am an emotional wreck...and she knows that if she pushes hard enough I will cave..again..what is the purpose of me staying, aside from me not being the one wants to end the marriage .. she says that its over and not a snowballs chhance of getting back together???
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

marathonman,

Let her leave ... you reach a few points, first you could tell your D that you don't deserted them. Second, let her realize her fantasy and work on it. Home is a symbolic place for a family, specially for your 2 D. There are some special comfort being there and don't let your W to spoil it with OM. You could decide what to do after she move out.

She could take the kids but you force her to give you custody agreement. The same way you could take the kids and she could not do anything. Just tell her to leave the girls with you while she is setting up her place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . If she refuse and don't want to talk about it ... I would run to the nearest court house and file a temporary custody !. Let her have visitation only.

Listen, this is a triage time. You have to be strong and start counting your support !. How are you going to tend your D when you have them ?. Call your closest family that you could depend on ... you never know, she might just file RO and get you out to the street. Get medication to calm you down and also be ready to take vacation/sick time. We are allow to take our sick time to take care this time of mess, check with your human resource personnel. Document everything !. Get ready to have your own checking account and also get ready to change the house key once she move out.

Meanwhile, NO LB and keep your plan A ... help her out to look for apartment if she allow you to. She wants out ... help her to get out. Be the one that "get it", anything else is LB.

I always say, we try to save M, to save WW form OM if there is one, to save our kids, to save our sanity. Right now you could only do the last two, do it well. Hope WW will come around in time.

-rh-

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

I know that home is a symbolic place..however... If I have to but her out I will end up bankrupt..and she will get the house anyway.I cannot get a temp r/o from court since she is mom and a very good one.. she wil fight it court and I will lose everything due to my major LB with WW..I can try to do a good paln A and try to fix me.. but again she is not coming back..I know it now..I would like to think that is all a dream but it very real..no chance ever of reconsiling..
i just sit back for a few days and see what see is doing.. she is being very secretive.. what I'm scared of is coming home and the palce being empty....this is a very traige time...I'm losing my mind here..the woman is set in her ways and don't care about her family... she says she does,, but the family in her eyes wont include me..I should just say the H$LL with it..symbolic or not she will not be coming home to me....

MM, you have to understand that there is no quick fix or blue pill that you could give it ot her to wake up (the matrix). I gave you my oppinion the same way I would do it if I am in your shoes. It is up to you to walk or try it. Rather than focusing on what has lost you should focusing on what you could do.
1. You could plan A even 1 day good plan A is still plan A that she would remember.
2. Avoid LB since evey LB you do might wipe out your effort of plan A (nullified it).
3. You have to stay, for your kids, even you have to move out the next month ... you have to. (I moved out after 5 months, sold my place and split the proceed for me to buy a house)
4. Just take her decision and help her out to move out.
5. I would go home an spent time as much as you can so that you could show your plan A via your action to your D.
6. Post here to vent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your M might not be salvageable but you have to make sure that it is safe for her to come back if she want to (NO LB) and make sure that it would be different (plan A). If she still dead set of leaving you, it is her choice and her loses ... nothing you could do but you do your part.

-rh-

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

1) Redhat is right; stay, stay, stay. Stay, and if she leaves, and you need to sell the house and move out the month after, that's still better than you leaving. (BTW - is the house in both your names? or just yours? Can you sell it without her approval? Maybe talk to a lawyer about your options.)
2) Have you talked to a lawyer about custody issues? You should know your rights.
3) My heart goes out to you. You total frustration and feelins of powerlessness are coming through loud and clear in your posts. I wish we had some magical advice to help things get better and fast, but we don't. Please just know that I'm thinking of you!

Jen

$h!+, marathonman. WSs ALL say what you're W is saying. Mine did! And she never left. Still says some of those things when we talk R, but I know they don't mean what she thinks they do.

DON"T MOVE OUT. I can't stress that enough. Get with a lawyer if you can, or a family mediator possibly even better. I hear they're better at getting estranged spouses talking together better than lawyers.

Once again, DON"T MOVE OUT.

-Qfwfq
P.S. Don't move out!!!!!

REDHAT/JEN/Q
she is saying that come H%ll or high water we will be seperated by the end of the month.. I understand that I should not leave and most likely will stick to my guns...I will talk to my lawyer concerning custody issues but I know that she wants to be fair with a 50/50..even though I belive my WW is different her in that she does not want to get back together..EVER... by her leaving it may give her a reality check.
JEN...I have been on the ADS for a couple of weeks now and I still feel like a WRECK...sure not doing much for my case of being a good exazmple and a good dad... I am scared that id the girls are with me I wil be either crying all the time or angry at them... for something they did not do!!
REDHAT.. lets start again with one day of Plan A that she will remember with no LBS..
This is all so hard.. I just have it in my heart that we could have such a wonderful life togther if she would give it a chance.. but I am just dreaming.. she just does not have any love for me..
I will stick to my guns and not move out!!
I am trusting you guys on this... I just hope it does not come back and bite me in the A$$..