She's never coming back.. I really want to save M.. MB vets please..please help me!!

To all those who have followed me through the past month on shes leaving me.. and OM gone/back..thanks but I can't go on anymore. Why live with someone who does not love you.. why play second fiddle to the om.. Mrs MM does not want anything to do with me and is getting ready to start her new life..seperate bank account.. seperate visa..getting info together on how to change things over dealing with house..still contact with OM.. telling me he says its over... BLA BLA..After another major fight last night...I have come to the conclustion that although Plan A did not go as planned and I most likely did not give it a chance to work..she is done with the marriage. done with me..could not care less about trying for MC to save our family..says that girls are going to be okay.. they will be so sad without their dad close by.. I was a good father... but I guess a wrotten husband..she says that I treated her like garbage.. so I got what I deserve...but you know I have seen the errs of my ways..and have tried to show so many times how sorry I am.. and try to make amends.. but now she loves someone else..maybe she will still have him .although he says its over..my guess first chance he gets to spread her legs he will..sorry for sounding crude but I really am sick of it all. She is getting more and more angry as she talk to me...and keeps saying you dont know how to love me..with all the crap thats going on how can I have a chnace to love her..end thing is that Marathonman cant take this anymore and has to accept that I havd treated my wife bad.. she feel in love with someone else to get the comfort...I am trying to make amends reading. 1)SAA, 2) relationship rescure.. 3)save your marriage..ect.. trying to get her to councelling but to no avail..time to take some time if I can stay alive and build a better MM and try to find a woman who will and love me unconditionally and let me love her.. I am just so sorry that my beautful daughters will not have a family to grow up with..evryone says now.. hey.. its the norm .most their friend will come from same families.. H&LL I come from a Island where people see things though no matter how bad..but my wife sees the future thrrough rose color glasses.. Thats all for now. if anyone wants to talk me out of this please try but I see no use in trying anymore.

[ April 02, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

I am NOT going to try to persuade you to do anything that you don't want.

You say that your WW's heart is no longer into saving the M and that's understandable considering she is deep in her A with OM. But your heart isn't into it either because every post of yours, you almost seem to be pleading with us to tell you to 'move on'. Why do I get the feeling that you are involved with someone else?

The reality is that the vast majority of A's end anywhere from 6 months to 2 years from the time they start. Why? because reality destroys the myth of being 'soul mates' and since they don't have the relationship tools and knowledge on how to use them, they resort to their normal response which is to flee the relationship.

You have been given excellent advise by folks like MortarMan, Just Learning, etc. but it's up to you to decide if you are going to take their advise or continue to do what has not worked in the past.

For a marathoner you certainly want to end the race immediately.

There is no one else in my life but I am interested in a woman I just met.. she is a runner as well ..thats all!!
I'm just so scared and tired of trying..no matter what I say, she keeps adding new things like starting her own bank account.. own visa.. wanting to talk to her lawyer about seperate living arrangements..she is now willing to move out and wil most likely want to take the kids... we have had some major fights the last few days..she says that the A with the OM is over.. and it was just kissing.. no SC.. although I feel it can start again at any timer... now it just comes back to how I treated her like garbage for the past few years.. she wont go yo MC.. to try to work things out.. no matter how good I am niw.. she is still finished..I really dont think there is fog.. I love her.. butwith all the crap she is throwing .. how do I keep going.. my daughters deserve a family with a mom and dad...My WW says we will always be fighting.. I think with MC we can start seeing each other differrently and begin to see a light..I will keep trying on Plan Af I have to but the towel is ready to do its deed..

[ March 29, 2003, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

MM-

I've followed your sitch for awhile and here's my take on things: You need to figure out a way to "get over" the anger and frustration of the physical part of your W's A, as it's obviously a major stumbling block. As just so you know, the idea of accepting that your WS slept with someone else seems to be much more difficult for men to get past than women(I know it was for me).

With these major fights you've had, do they revolve around you pressing your W for details about sex with the OM? If you insist on pressing for those sorts of details at this time it's going to make reconciliation impossible as there's no way she can feel safe around you. I wish you luck and hope you know that things can turn around if you make some changes.

In a lot of cases yes these figts have been about her and the OM..and what she plans to do once she gets me out of her life.. with The OM..
Now what do I do.. understand I dont have a printer so I have to keep going back looking through the threads:
Now!
the changes I have to make...
except that the marraige is over and that she does not want to be with me
2) stop touching her
3)stop asking her to go to MC
4)make things pleasant around house..be happy.. doesn't seem the ads kicked in yet..
5)spend time with kids..
6)dont talk to her..
7) is there something in plan A im missing??
8) do chores around house
9) respect her.. ie wishes to end marriage
she says thst she will bemiserable if she stays with me.. I dont want to be.. that is why I want to try MC. maybe call the harleys if I can scrape up enough to pay.. I am flat broke..

[ March 29, 2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There is no one else in my life but I am interested in a woman I just met.. she is a runner as well ..thats all!!<hr /></blockquote>You see how you are contradicting yourself? Even though you and this OW have not started an A, you are 'interested' in this woman to fulfill your unmet EN's which is the first step in getting into an A. This 'interest' robs you of your will and energies to fight for your M. No wonder you want to throw in the towel.

[ March 29, 2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

got a 2x4 handy I need a crack!! she is not even a friend yet..jsut met her.. fact is My wife wants out and yells at me to accept that we have no future..nada! I want to give it my all and get my fgamily back on track..Hoping Plan A will drag my wife back from the depths.. but again .. I now have to start taking care of marathonman..making him a better person.... my ww..would care if I turned into God himself,,, she still would want the marraige to end.

MM- Have you read Cali's post titled "How sweet it is..."? Specifically:

"My goal went from saving my marriage... to saving me... and I think that made the difference. I WOULD BE WHOLE AND HEALED... and so too will YOU... just make THAT your goal."

Do you get that idea? Make positive changes for yourself and stop worrying so much about how she perceives them or worse yet, how you think she perceives them. This is the direction you need to go, but it takes alot of soul searching and effort. Good luck....

[ March 29, 2003, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]

2x4 coming up and ready to be swung.

MarathonMan, there is no guarantee that even with the best implementation of plan A and plan B, your M will survive. But they have proven to be the best chance that a spouse has to save his/her M.

The last thing you need right now (if you are truly serious about trying to save your M) is to cross the boundary of establishing a secret frienship with a member of the opposite sex, because that is the first of the boundaries that once crossed inevitable lead to an A (your W is living proof of this).

Ironically the best time to save your M will probably come when you learn to emotionally detach from your W. How you do this? by making peace with the possibility that your M may indeed end in divorce. I know it's strange but once you achieve this inner peace, your W MAY notice it and wonder if she is making the right choice in leaving you. Don't beleive me? just read Bramblerose's post on starman's thread titled Questions about false recoveries to see what I'm telling you is true.

Good gawd TMCM ..... how utterly astute of you!!!!

Pepper is impressed with the intuitiveness of TMCM!!!!

Litchfield.." MY GOAL WENT FROM SAVING MY MARRIAGE TO SAVING ME.. AND i THINK THAT MADE THE DIFFERENCE.. i WIULD BE WHOLE AND HOPEFUL..AND SO TOO WILL YOU.. JUST MAKE THAT YOUR GOAL..//
Excellent point.. almost felt like TMCM.. lent you his 2X4..this is where Mortarman told me to srtart.and seem to be the main point of Plan A..I have to come to terms with the seperation and divorce...she just has absolutely no feelings for me... and cant see a future..when she says that she does not love me.. she means it..no fog.. no pb..so now to just except that it will happen and now concentrate on a better MM..
TMCM.. thanks for the crack..I understand bramblerose..and will just forget about the M...I will take matters in my own hand and get the divorce papers..jsut to get on with my life and let her do what she has to.. but I assure you she wont be thinking about how she can get MM back..that is a guarantee.. she wants to live a new life.. the sooner the better.. again..I understand that it is now about me .. taking care and making a better MM..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />but I assure you she wont be thinking about how she can get MM back..that is a guarantee.. she wants to live a new life.. the sooner the better.. again..I understand that it is now about me .. taking care and making a better MM..<hr /></blockquote>You are probably right because her fantasy right now is OM. But since nobody is perfect, the time WIll come when she will start to see that OM isn't whom she thought he was. When that day finally comes, she may finally realize that you were not the problem after all, but the person looking back at her in the mirror.

Hey MarathonMan,

When your W babbles all that stuff, babble back. She tells you she doesn't want to be married to you. Well tell her right now you don't want to be married to someone in her state of mind either. (you have to mean this).

If she further states that she sees your changes, knows they are good but is afraid you will go back to your 'bad' ways. Tell her, well that is possible, I am afraid you will do the same.

See these are classic WS lines. They are meant to push our buttons and produce emense pain. It does right?

Know this, then learn how to minimize it, avoid it and give it back. That will help you. NOw you may lead to separation even D but it was going to go there anyway as long as things stayed the way they are now.

Some of us think we have to go kicking and screaming...... all the way to the D. That is needed for most of us, esp at the beginning, eventually that need gives way to the BS' personal needs.

So right now, if you know you did the best you could or the most you could due circumstances, stop beating yourself up. She is going to go anyways, even if you did a perfect plan A. You are not a failure. She is.

You need to protect you and the children. Right now her decision making capability is not healthy nor safe for the family. If given a choice to please her family or the OM, what do you think she will choose? Now do you want your children to be in that environment? Then check out your options to ensure their safety. I don't just mean from the 'serious' stuff, everyday things. Keep the lines of communication open with your children. Let them know you love them and want to be with them. Show care and love for them.

This is a turning point for you and them. Make that turn together. Your W will be on her own in this matter whether the children are with her or not. Why? Because your children did not pick the OM, she did.

take care,
L.

Thanks Orchid..TMCM
Whether she does leave in the end..she has not mentioned a D.. just seperation.. maybe in her niave mind its all the same.. howver she is starting to get very emotional..and crying.when I tell her I loved her last night.. she said that she felt so guilty..about what I dont know.. In the afternoon she said that she wanted me out for the evening or for her to go out..because she was so stressed and wanted to be alone. we ended up watching the tube and having a snack together..I spent the evening mopping the floor and cleaning the house.. I am sure she noticed..none the less I am going to continue with no more lbs .. just keeping my mouth shut..I am meeting with the mediator tomorrow and she knows that I am totally against this break up.. make put a damper on the process. My WW also mentioned that she may agree to MC or C of sorts.. if I can get her there who knows..I am sure she still has storng feelings forn the OM but lets see ehat happens..like I say I dont want to play second fiddle..This D$%Mrolllercoaster is a surely a wicked ride.. thanks and keep the advise coming.. I will continue to pray..thanks again!!

I

update..WW spent the afternoon yesterday looking at apartments in the paper.. looks like she may be ready to move out.maybe thinking that this is the only way to get OM in bed..altough she says OM called it off.. she has been spending a lot of time on the phone with him at work,, says that they are talking business... I know 2x4 up the side of the head ,, forget about the om and start thinking about making a better MM..My only concern is that she may try to take the girls..spoke with my lawyer this afternoon..told me to stay out and not move..also met with mediator who suggested councelling for both of us to come closer to an agreement of whats going on.. maybe if I can get her there..she may start to see the light..continuing on with plan A until something happens...

I just dont know how all this PB from my wife can be labled as fog talk she says that this is reality.. and I better get with it..if you could only see her eyes.. she has no interest inme touching her... talking about us.. and definitely sex has beeen a noninssue for three monyths plus.. I cant see her coming back out of that at all..shes gone and she aoint coming back the next one if he hasn't slept with her will be the OM.. not MM..only a miracle would chnageit.. she too far gone stubburn.. but I stil want to fight for her... I am begfinning to feel like a loser.. for trying to have something that will never happen..

[ March 31, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

update..WW spent the afternoon yesterday looking at apartments in the paper.. looks like she may be ready to move out.maybe thinking that this is the only way to get OM in bed..altough she says OM called it off.. she has been spending a lot of time on the phone with him at work,, says that they are talking business... I know 2x4 up the side of the head ,, forget about the om and start thinking about making a better MM..My only concern is that she may try to take the girls..spoke with my lawyer this afternoon..told me to stay out and not move..also met with mediator who suggested councelling for both of us to come closer to an agreement of whats going on.. maybe if I can get her there..she may start to see the light..continuing on with plan A until something happens...

[ March 31, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

update..WW spent the afternoon yesterday looking at apartments in the paper.. looks like she may be ready to move out.maybe thinking that this is the only way to get OM in bed..altough she says OM called it off.. she has been spending a lot of time on the phone with him at work,, says that they are talking business... I know 2x4 up the side of the head ,, forget about the om and start thinking about making a better MM..My only concern is that she may try to take the girls..spoke with my lawyer this afternoon..told me to stay out and not move..also met with mediator who suggested councelling for both of us to come closer to an agreement of whats going on.. maybe if I can get her there..she may start to see the light..continuing on with plan A until something happens...

I dont seem to be getting much feedbck but here goes with a futher update...
Just got back from a session with a Psychologist.. with my WW..to get me to understand that she does not love me... the Psych said that my ww container oif love is empt and that she is done with marriage..no coming back and that I have to accept it..guess that she is right..she also said we have to decide on a date for physical seperation..there is no hope in this case.. no matter what I try to do.. she has been gone in her mind since last summer so..I have to let go and say what odds..do I [censored] to try and push her further apart or resolve to the fact that I will never have herin my life again.. sure looks grim... please help me!!!!

I thought you said you're a runner? Did you ever win a race? Because with the way you always sound concerning repairing your marriage, you've already lost before you even started. And you're focusing on the wrong things still!! I'd love to still try and help you Marathonman, but I just do not know anymore? I'm up and running myself right now if you want to get in and run a few miles!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ April 01, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: SearchingHeart ]

sure missed hearing from you...I dont want to give up.. but when she keeps on telling me and the Psychologist says forget it.. my ww wants someone else..she has no love..no interest with me in her future.. The psych told me that i have to accept oit.. or else I am going to force myself into depression.. I want to fight and run the marathon.. all 26 miles.. but I cant fix my marraige if she is not anywhere near.. Plan A will only take me so far..I may have some time but she says that if she comes back she will be miserable and will be always thinking aboutv the OM... sorry to ramble.. but I have no one close by to talk to .. you guys are my only hope.. I am listeneing to you vets.. but each time I look at my wife.. I get discouraged.. Thanks for checking in on me.. please dont leave me I need you guys more than ever..

Searching Heart,,
sure missed hearing from you...I dont want to give up.. but when she keeps on telling me and the Psychologist says forget it.. my ww wants someone else..she has no love..no interest with me in her future.. The psych told me that i have to accept oit.. or else I am going to force myself into depression.. I want to fight and run the marathon.. all 26 miles.. but I cant fix my marraige if she is not anywhere near..You said that I am focusing on the wrong thing.. would that be herand the OM and not on fixing myself.. Once I came homer from Psych..had a major LB asking about thje OM again...I have to let it go..she'll never tell me the whole story..or how she felt in his arms.. Plan A will only take me so far but I'll do my best...I may have some time but she says that if she comes back she will be miserable and will be always thinking about the OM... sorry to ramble.. but I have no one close by to talk to .. you guys are my only hope.. I am listeneing to you vets.. but each time I look at my wife.. I get discouraged.. Thanks for checking in on me.. please dont leave me I need you guys more than ever..

Marathonman, Sorry I don't have a pc at the home right now, but you can count on me to be checking in on you now and again! Look you must be prepared for the long, long haul with your wife if you realy want her back. Be Patient with her, don't close her, in give her space! I don't know how close you were with her in your years with her, so you have to do the work! I'm talking about knowing your wife personally. Her Likes and dislikes, her needs, the things about her that you can only know! Keep showing her in as many ways as you can, how much you realy love her, and that no matter what she did in the pasted or what she does in the future you'll always love her! It's gong to take a long time to get her back were you would like her to be! SO BE PATIENT WITH HER! She'll never last with this OM, he's a fake!! You need to take your time with your wife, just be thankful for the little things, set goals and work on them one by one! PROVE to her without demanding anything from her, THAT YOU REALY LOVE HER!! At the same time GUARD yourself! Keep positive in everything Marathonman, everyting! Just keep helping her as mush as you can, and please stay off the SEX THING, do not focus on that and most of all do not rub it in her FACE! She knows shes doing wrong, just help her find her way back, and take your time and do anything you can to proved to her that your for real, DON'T give up! I'll be back in a day or two, so just hang in there and BE PATIENT Marathonman. Don't worry yourself so much, be your man and be the father you should be, stick to your beliefs! Keep kinda in the background, and listen more to your wife and see if you can find out her needs, look close now, sometimes they're very hard to find. KEEP YOUR CHIN UP Marathonman! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Searching Heart.. I really want to show her that I love her..but I cant get the chance..she does not want me near her at all.. I know that I have to get past the OM.. she says that it is over with him. But she just left after sitting at the table trying to find a way to get either one of us out of the house by the end of April.. she left in her car to go look at apartments supposeably close by.. she also wants to consider buying a second house down the street, so the girls can be closer to each one of us.. the sad thing is that on both our salaries,we hardly get by..she does not want me to be anywhere near her. .shestalking about staying with a friend on the weekends, ,just to get away from the stress.. of being around me..point is I'm having a hard time with this breakup/.. I have no idea how I am ever going to get her back... i dont want to give up.. I want to do my best to deposit into the love bank but it seems senseless..she is seeing her lawyer tomorrow for suggestions on how to get seperate living arrangements.. but says that she does not want a court order..I am not abusive.. just trying to accept inmy best way on whats happening..she feels that she shouldnt leave.. I know Im rambling but I am falling into the trap as Mortarman said I would... I have to shut up and be the best I can..I dont know her needs cause she said I ahave screwed up everything in our marriage,,,she admits no fault .. so I dont know where to start..she will not give me chance.. all she wants is out and the quicker the better..I will not have a chance to work bit by bit.. but I have to .. for the sake of the girls..
not sure if I'm making sense.. but thanks for checking in.. I know everyone feels I need the 2x4 to the head.. I'll jsut try my best and accept what god lets happen,,Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

mm...

psychologists and therapists drive me CRAZY... we did MC and 'our' therapist eventually backed him into a corner so that he quit MC and left the house... she also tried to make me see that our marriage was OVER and I just had to accept that he didn't love me anymore...

Now that being said, I know NOW that I was TOO focused on my H and what he was or wasn't doing. As my post "How sweet it is..." said... I had to learn to focus on ME... by changing ME... real changes... INTERNAL... FOREVER changes... it made our relationship change... because how I reacted and acted around him changed...

My desperation for our marriage diminished... I got to a point of not caring... if giving up MYSELF meant keeping my marriage... I didn't want it... I wasn't going to live together as co-parents... just to keep our marriage intact.... I GOT STRONGER!

God and Jesus in my life... gave up control... worked on ME...

That is the common thread that I see in RECOVERY... when people focus on being WHOLE and HEALED... the marriage and relationship can also be WHOLE and HEALED...

Cali

she says that it is over with him


well, if true, that would explain a few things. your wife might be in a particularly bad place the moment, as she lost him and thinks she lost you too. think of it as withdrawl symptoms.

also, the fact that your discussions end up in rows points to the fact that YOU are not in control of what and HOW YOU are saying things. (similar applies to your wife of course, but remember: you have to take responsibility for YOUR actions, she for hers. You wont change her, and she wont change you). Work on that.

If she really dumped/was dumped by OM, then your plan should be clear: make it safe for her to return. dont be obsessed. be calm. be strong. easier said than done of course, but these actions will bring her back, whilst pleading/crying/shouting/arguing will simply not. let her talk to the lawyer - and you should do the same, so you get the facts.

regards
N

Cali...you seems to hit the nail on the head..
Both the psch and MC.. seemed to be trying to help us end the marriage instead of helping us save it! also try to get me to accept that she does not love me anymore..MC appraoch really confused me and thus I did not have my heart into it at the time...
your story is quite amazing..like i said before.. I am really impressed with you!! Now... what the H$LL do I have to do to fix myself...I have to get internally and change forever..what changes did you make// how did you get away from caring aboout saving your marriage..My wife eyes are so shut she'll never see a change and if she did It wouldn't matter since she has no interest in me what so ever..how did you make yourself stronger?? time for me is running out...and not sure she will either notice or accept changes. I want to stop worrying about the marriage and focus on me..but I keep thinking about her and the OM. although she says its over with him I am weary that it is true..

NICK... she lost the OM .. so she says that he called it off .. but he is always aroung the hospital with her.. so they still have contact. she did not lose me.. she dumped me and wants nothing to do with me.. aside from sharing raising the gils in seperate homes..On rebuiling and trying to get her back, first I have to learn to just shut up and be as nice as possible...I am trying to back off on the cyring and neeedy and have done an okay job since starting on the ad's...I will try to be calm and strong.. for myself..she is getting angrier by the day.. no physical contact .. no kissing no hugs..just wants space and be as far away from me as possible..not sure how being calm and strong and sticking to Plan A will help.....to all the MB gang.. I am trying and I dont want to give up.. but I am dealing with a uniqe woman here... she is set in her ways.

marathonman:

"the Psychologist says forget it"

Fire the g*d*****d "psychologist!"

People like that really piss me off.

That being said, everyone is right in that you are too focused on what your W may or may not be thinking or planning right now to save your M. Letting her move out may be just the "break" you both need from the mutual LBs right now. Unless you can really STOP them dead cold right now. That is possible, but it ain't easy by any means. To do it successfully, you not only need to not bring up the OM or what she may have "done" with him and all the other "obvious" things that are LBs, you also need to ignore her if she "baits" you with something that would cause you to LB, even if it's only her perception. Right now, you need to just DROP any talk of your R with your W. Only speak if you can say something nice. Ignore any effort on her part to draw you into an argument.

And, if she does move out, DO NOT LET HER TAKE THE KIDS.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

marathonman,

Not all A will end following the text book case of SAA, with WS out from the fog. I know it is very hard on ego and also very hard on LB$. To give you a glimpse of reason to keep going ... you have to understand the premesis of in-love according to MB. If you let someone to fillin ENs, no LB, spend time together and honest with you ... you will fall in-love with her (given enough amount of time). So the key in here is willing. Right now your W is not in the same place as you are in which you are willing to do it for her and of course you are longing for her to do it for you. What to do ?. Keep your guard up, absolutly NO LB !, including begging/crying/asking her about R, plan A to show her that you could changed or has been changed. Right now she is not letting you fill any of her ENs ... let it, the premesis of plan A is for you, no LB and fillin ENs as much as WS allows you too.

Dig your trenches, hunker down so if she wants to move out let her but keep plan A, no LB and fillin ENs as much as she allows you. There will be a time that she will need your help and hope you will be there to help her and there will be a time that she will be de-foged and hope you are still be there & ready to catch her.

Meanwhile you are still in 'coaster and she has the control over it. Buckle up.

-rh-

I really felt the need to jump in and give MVHO and some advice . Both from past and present experiance . Hope you don't mind .

PLan A is well in JMO the hardest thing in the world , it takes everything out of someone to look at themselves . NOT at what you think you want your WW to see or evern like . But who you like , who you want to be , and what you want to achieve for you . I DON'T mean your M I mean for you .

LB well you can read my thread I want a crown I LB at everything and focuse more on OW and WH then I think they do .

BACK to that in a min.

IN reality I think a separation for you a WW is needed , you don't see it now or maybe you do but don't want to admit it but YOU need to get away from HER .

Having her there IMVHO is not allowing you to focuse on you and also is not allowing you to get your pain out without her seeing it .

CRYING and CRAZY and LB is part of process that you can't go through in front of her .

With her gone you can PLAN A , talk to her on phone say hi and if convo gets nuts you can remove yourself easier . LIKE someone is couching me through now learning on how to not RE-ACT to my emotions . LET me tell you I have done this both ways . I ask H to leace 2 yrs ago , he said , he wanted OW I gave them our money for the APT .

With him out I was able to break down be myself flip out and he did not see a thing , when he came to pick up kids I was dressed , and nice offerd drink and what ever . YOU get it .

NOW H is home and it started all over again .

I can't PLAN A for the past 5 mon . I do it for a day even 3 or 4 then I LB .

MY H told me when he left the first time he hated my guts , thought I was $HIT , didn't love me ,
Was a fat slob and I'll tell ya I belived every word at that moment . BUT he was ahving an A .

He left and I relized I was more .

That is where you need to be right now .

YOU YOU YOU .,.................. In one respect GET SELFISH ME ME ME .

Is this healthy for me ? Am I happy ? Do I like me ? If not then find YOUR problems about you and fix them , the more focused you are on you the less you can be on them .

THIS is all so much easier said , then done I know people here want to 2x4 me all the time .

Please see really see that you must let her go in one respect , you don't have to stop loving her or give up fighting for your M , you just have to fight for YOU first .

I hope some of this was helpfull I hesitate to post some times cause I don't always practice what I preach , but when I say it it helps me to .
BE WELL and healthy and STRONG .

Q... thanks so much for that shot in the arm.. I thouught I was crazy.. these da$M psch.. have no reasoning in matters of the heart.. I am going to give it my sincere all not to LB in any way about the OM or anything she has done..Its just killing me not to say anything about a secret party shes going to saturday night.. she says that the OM is not going to be there..by the way if you look back the OM apparently called it off..but is still around her at the hospital and always will..but If she goes that will be a good break .. but now is my time to get real with myself and fix me...not worry about the M anymore and certainly not argue in any way... I really mean it thanks.. from my heart.. I am going to start praying again..you have lifted my spirits...
and If she does go I will do my best to keep the girls with me in the house..but that may turn into a real battle..
REDHAT.... thanks for the tips ..I know that the Om had served her needs well although ww say no sex ever happened.. I guess I have to believe her.. none the less I see what you are saying. It begins with absolutely no LBS.. as it stands now she will not allow me to satisfy any ENs,, any tips on some that I can slide in..she does not want hugs, kisses or any other contact.. maybe to just talk soft and listen..again my problem for the past three months has been to major LBS and yak about her andthe OM... I know she still loves him or has feelings for him.. but I have to forget about it..and let the god take over.. those are good pieces of advise ..please keep it coming..
3ISACROD. dont mind at all.. really mean it!!!
both you and you WH are the same age as me and my ww..I cant thank you .. all of you about your advise... I have to get busy fixing me and making a better MM... Mortarman should have a few 2x4s for me.. since he had been telling me this all along and I was not listening..ow i see it..If she does move out maybe a rest is what we need.. but in her eyes its alredy ended and ewnded a long time ago.. But like I said I willl get busy and focus in what my problems and solve them... it will make me better all over and if she never comes back ,,waht a catch for the next woman. As long as she is here no more LBS...only the best Da^M MM possible and try to plan A without losing it... once again to the three of you.. thanks... I needed the vote of encouragement it may have saved me.

.

It sounds like those little miracle pills (anti-d's) have finally kicked in.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
 any tips on some that I can slide in..she does not want hugs, kisses or any other contact.. maybe to just talk soft and listen..<hr /></blockquote>You know ... just be patience. No one could live by oneself. She will come to you for help or asking small favors. That is the time to sneak in small deposit of LB$, oh LB¢ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Don't push it but be ready to "help" her when she asks you or let you. By reducing LB you make it safe for her to try.

-rh-

she sat down to talk about her meeting with her lawyer..looks likes I'm Scre%^d.. says thar we have to be seperated right now..sooner the better. That we have to make it as disruptive as posssible.. who would it be less disduptive for girls in the house.. me or her.. For F^*KS sake we know it would be easier for them.. she went on to say how she is the primary caregiver and how much she does around the house and how much I dont do...says I dont have a leg to stand on... looks like I am going to be forced out of my ouw home.. otherwise she takes the girls and leaves....again nothing I can do to stop her..needless to say.. we had another drwan out fight.. I'm sure it woke up the girls but neiher called for us.. after I sent my last post.. I was so pumped with your kind words REDHAT/Q/3ISAcrowd,,I Blew it .. she is in the process of destroying me..she knows she has got the ace... and is laughing all the eay to the bank!!!
looks like I am back to square one with no where to go!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

first things first - you cant change her, she cant change you. but you can change yourself and be responsible for yourself. what does that mean?
I could think of a number of things:
- talk to a laywer to get the basic facts covered
- insist on shared custody, at least visitation rights for several days a week
- insist on staying at home; if she wants to leave: fine.
- watch the way you communicate with her: no crying, shouting, LBing. try to ooze zen-like calm. :-)
- when you cant take it, or are on the verge of shouting/LBing/hitting - sound retreat, withdraw and go for a run instead

Take care,
N

I'll make this plain and simple:

UNLESS SHE PROVES HER WORDS WITH DEEDS, DON'T BELEIVE ANYTHING SHE TELLS YOU.

Get a grip on yourself man. She is pressing your buttons so you will leave voluntarily. If you leave, then you are screwed.

Enough said!

nick bang on.. I have spoken to my lawyer.. no matter how good of a parent she thinks she is ..if she wants to leave and take the girls..I will live with that..but I am not leaving the house..shared custody is a given no matter what.. Its hard not to LB.. but I have to stick with it no matter what she tries to throw at me..
TOO much Coffee..what do you mean by deeds .. serves me divorce PAPER..iF SO I will make her do the work...AND LET her see how hard it is.. but right now I think that she would jump over hopps to get me out of her life... only makes me wonder if the OM is still around...and waiting

For get OM or find out follow her ? If you need to know if it drives you crazy not to know then find out .

Listen everyone is different , some of need to put it in our faces but are to scared . And belive me waiting for her to be HONEST about it and come clean on her own , well is not happening and it is causeing you to LB more .

You sound so much like me . In some respects .

I waited for it to be honest , NOT I had to catch then , I had to stop being scared of the unknown and face it .

With some people the reality of thinking that there lieing and knowing they are are 2 very different thing .

I wanted to know asked all the time went crazy knew it in my gut but got no confesion . GO snooping .

Follow find simeone to follow , the thong that your doughting is weather to belive her that it has nothing to do with OM .

She wants you to think , it don't matter about him that she don't want you no matter what and there is no one . So you letting her feed you and your eating it and getting angry and douhgting your self thinking its not FOG talk .

Well maybe its not , but more then likely it is .

Prove it to YOURSELF that they are sneaking around together .Once the facts are in your hands you can stop LB over guessing .

Tackal one hurdal at a time , sit down and write a list of things you need to know for shore in your head , next to each one write down what it accomplishs , what you will do with it how you can use it to your recovery FOR yourself .

MAKE A PLAN and stop talking to her stop RE-ACTING to her . she communicates only to piss you off . SHE only talks to you about things she knows gets under your skin .

JOKE at her instead , make her think it isn't going to work .

Next time she starts a fight , say something so stupid , like ..... you know what when you yell like this it really turns me on want to fool around ............ Then laugh and walk away .

Let her know in so many ways that , she may think what you said , is stupid the same as what she is saying is to.

Well I was giving an example and wanted to make you laugh . LOL

Yes this is serious but some times humor is nessecery .

<blockquote>quote:<hr />TOO much Coffee..what do you mean by deeds .. serves me divorce PAPER..iF SO I will make her do the work...AND LET her see how hard it is..<hr /></blockquote>Yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />but right now I think that she would jump over hopps to get me out of her life...<hr /></blockquote>Oh really? Has she served you with papers yet?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />only makes me wonder if the OM is still around...and waiting<hr /></blockquote>If he is, you can't do anything to stop her from seeing him.

Here's an idea, is your state one of the few remaining fault divorce states where adultery is grounds for divorce?

3is crowd.. thanks..whether she has, hasn't splept with him should not matter she says she has not and if she did she would not admit it. so I will have to let it be...and start on making me better... she says is she laeves she is taking the girls.. Iam not moving out of this house,, family here or not.. no matter how disruptive to the girls lives she says it will be.. time to focus on me and get better...I like your style on the joke about hey your telling turns me on..wanna fool around.. that would really piss her off and go off the deep end..your anot a canadian eh!!.. she is just to secretive to catch her.. do I believe her when she swears she has not..I won't be able to and it will just drive me crazy so maybe best to forget it..and try to be as noce as possible..but she is set that either way we will be seperated by the end of the month...thanks I really appreacite the insight!!

Too much coffee man...
I live in canada.. no fault came in in the 70's I think its been here for a while,,, she can screww whoever she wants and there is not a da#m thinkg I can do about it .. so if she wants the D.. she does the work... i am staying out of it..by me saying that she would do anyting,, I am saying for me to allow her to have the house.. ad me move out..she has not served me papers.. I dont think she is swift enough to do such a thing,, she would not know where to start.. and the thing about the OM.. if he is waiting for her... not a da*m thing I can do about it..s he know that and she is playing it for all its worth,,,, she is telling me to go find someone to have fun with since you wont get it from me... almost time for another call to the OM wife....but she thinks he is gold..and would never do anything wrong.. Man I am dealing with a whole spaceship load of aliens...
anyway thanks TMCM.. I really apreciate your input.. keep it coming.

I

Seems she reallt is gettting more determined by the day for final seperation...she is very angry..where she let me briefly kiss her and hug her.. noe a passing touch sets her off..she is getting very upset and says that she cant be around me anymore.. fog?? i dont think so.. she says that either I move out of house or she moves out of house and will take the girls... I really cannot stop her since if it goes to court .. she will get them.. no matter .why?? because they are girls,, I have been trying hard not to LB... and be nice,,, but she is soset in her ways that this is over. will continue with Plan A.. and try to meet en whre able. but if she does not want to be near me how can I possibly do that?
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

marathonman,

This is a triage time for you and your kids. Forget about what she does or would do. First ... DON'T LB, but it doesn't mean you have to be doormat. Calm at all time and just state the fact and don't budge on your stand. Second .... don't move out !, she has no right to kick you out. Third ... PUT THIS ON YOUR MIND: She has no right either keeping the girl from you. Whatever you sttle with her now will be use as temporary custody. SO if you let her have 100% and you are only has visiting ... you will be screwed. Fight for your right, remember OM might be around your kids too !.

Now, it is not about M anymore, it is about protecting yourself. Any consession you make with her it has to be with no M mind frame. She will use anything to get you hint of reconsile and so on ... toward her advantage. Remember she is in the fog and full of selfishness ... Don't give any inch to her and hope that would change her mind later ... DON'T. I made mistake ... I should of go for 100% while I could, I have compassion and second guessing and let her have 30% ... now we have 50-50 and create a lot of headache & heartache for my 2 D. The court would not listen for infedelity outcry but Family Service would !. Make sure you are arm with information to show that you are better position to take care of your kids .... unless you don't want them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .
-rh-

Redhat!!
tried hard today to wake up and have a great day.. we ended up with major fight.. with me possibly with a black eye... she punched me in the glasses..On the idea of staying put.. financially it would be better off for me to move out..I'm beginning to think that is the right thing for me to do for the sake of the girls... no real disruption.. aside from me, their dad.. out of home scene. she has no interest to reconsile.. actually quite the opposite..but I see what you mean forget about the M.. and worry about MM..
I would never get full custody.. in canada its NO fault..nso the infedility angle won't work and she know that. This thing aboutv the Fog.. if she seems so serious about leaving and so angry..why would she be in a fog.. she does not want me around...you know.. I am answering my own questin here... I never really tried with all my heart..On the custody..the most I will get is 50/50.. and if she pushes for full she will win in court. simply because they are girls..
thanks for the help.. and please keep checking in on me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
.. with me possibly with a black eye... she punched me in the glasses.. <hr /></blockquote>Physically or figuratively ?. If it is physical, I hope Canada has R.O !, put one on her and get her to move out !.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On the idea of staying put.. financially it would be better off for me to move out..I'm beginning to think that is the right thing for me to do for the sake of the girls... no real disruption.. aside from me, their dad.. out of home scene.<hr /></blockquote>I had that thought too .... I was planning to live on my car ... I figured that we can't afford for either of us move out. I figured that it is the best financially and for my 2 D for me to move out. I planned out that I could stay in the office 'till late, I love to work and toying around anyway. Take shower in the gymn, doing laundry in the laundrymat, I don't need to cook since I could get bargain lunch at the downtown and save some for dinner in the office refriged ... on the cold night (rememer I live in nothern califonia city, no snow ... I could drive down far just to leave the get the heater going. I enjoy driving anyway and sleep in the play room during lunch in the office. I AM GLAD THAT I DIDN'T DO THAT AND THANKS TO WAT. I have to take care of me first before I could help my 2D and possibly my WW at that time. CA has also the same law, assume 50-50 for CS then they review it. Don't you know how devistated your 2 D are if they know that their dad is moving out ? ... for what ? ... is he doing something wrong here ? ... is he guilty for my mom's A ? ... does he love us at all ?. The moment you move out, your WW will bad mouth and put lies w/o you be able to defend yourself. Also what do you teach your 2 D ?. Run away ?.

IMVHO, you agree to move out if you are done with your plan A and you fillin most of her ENs such that when you move out she will miss you. Even with that reasoning, you still have to cross your finger that MM will not pick up the slack and fillin ENs that you just have vacated. Or you are able to avoid LB at all.

-rh-

Marathonman reading your thread, I thought that was me talking.
My wife kicked me out, actually didn't have honesty to face me, got served r/o without any basis, just her saying she was in fear of what I might do once served papers, she filed for dv 4 days later,om filed for dv 5 days after my wife did (remember this isn't about infidelity as she says) My wife has been well coached on how to do things, with r/o there is no chance to reconcile, wife is keeping my kids away from me ( stay at home dad here ) we had hearing on r/o a week after being served, I was still in shock, she was very well prepared, she came up with stuff that happened 17 years ago and was misleading with other information. Remember she allowed me to raise our 2 daughters since birth, but now I was a danger to them.
She has kept me from my own neighborhood, were people who lived there had seen how active I was with my kids, most parents didn't know my wife, never saw her.
She has very large support for divorce, her mom is all for it, I'm sure new man is too.
She seeks gets domestic abuse counciling, I have to go to counciling I agreed to do in order to see my kids I raised, my counciler reports to her attorney ( I have nothing to hide ), my wife wanted to talk to my counciler, but counciler thought that was asking way,way too much.
wife is talikng to parents that I know, that don't know her about how abusive I have been.
Wife wants me to go to anger manegement and admit I am abuser, which I would do If I didn't think my wife would use that against me in court, I have trusted her too much.....
I went to mediation a week ago, 1st time to see wife in 2 months, .....she didn't even look at me....... like I wasn't even there........
maybe she just felt too guilty.............
maybe not...........
when I wanted equal parenting time......she said no.......
when I wanted to be able to go to school she said no.........
that's it in a nutshell..........

t REDHAT
Guess I have to go and refreash myself on WAT..how do I link into it? The thing about moving out really kills me....where is dady going ? what did he do? why is he leaving us?? they will be devastated..The tears are rolling down my eyes here.. this is all so wrong..I know that in the past I never attended to her EM at all times.. but I did love her.. It was her that had the EA/PA.. she says no sex at all.. never really had a chance to start..Not sure where I will go..If it does hapen she is going to have to move fast and seperate all assets so I will have the money to have a fresh start..but I just dont want my 2D to thnk that I left.. AND THEY WILL!!!! she says that they wont and she will explain...I will accept nothing less from 50/50.
But If I can get .. a solid PlanA going which I haver not... MortarMan. who tried so Hard to help me would be so pissed off at me. I have not heard from him.. maybe he has given up on me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The moment I start to Plan A.. she says something that amkes we wont tofight back..she wont let me near her at all so I cant fullfil and EN at all..Its all know about how soon we can make this happen.. she says Ive been dragging my feet since new years and have not gotten over the fact she wants a seperation..Plan A still trying with no LBS today..

Rufusfirefly.. I have not been PA to her. said some mean things.. but we all say things to each other.. that is still no excuse.. thats wherthe lack ogf EN comes in and why she started with the OM..I agree that I have had problems dealing with stress..and would agree to AM coucelling..but that fact is she does not love me or want to be with me..she will never have a R/O since she does not want my 2d kept from me.. they love their dad too much..
fact here is that I need to find a way to get her to see through the fog and let us try to at least see through the end of the tunnel..and a better life for Mr&Mrs MM... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

MB'ERS
I need to put all this in perspective:
She says she does not love me...does not want to live in an unhappy house..with 2D and me. does not want to learn to love me. does not want any ENs met from me..says that if I go she will be very supportive of girls to paint me in best light..but in reality that is not whatc they will see.. daddy left us .. why??
she does not want to try coucelling
she does not want to try to get along
she does not want to talk about how we can live together form a hapy house..I dont want to sound defeatist but with a very good Plan A and No LBs.. it would just make things more peaceful.. but her heart is so set on seperating that is seems hopeless.. I just get the feeling that ecevn though OM according to nher is out of piture .. she wants to seperate so she can starts something with him guilt free..
I cant make her love me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> so what do I do to win her back?

I do not know what you can possibly do to win her back, beyond just looking after yourself, and trying to find happiness within yourself (which according to most MBers is supposedly attractive). It didn't work to bring my H back to me, but maybe it can for you.

But, here is the real reason I am posting to this thread: DO NOT move out of your house. If your wife is so dead set on separating, she can move out. She doesn't want to and isn't willing to work on the relationship, and you are. The quitter should leave, not the one who still wants to work to save the relationship. I especially don't think you should leave because of your fear of the kids thinking you left them behind. You can't be sure what light your W will portray you in to them if you leave. STAY STAY STAY and tell her to leave if it's so important to her to separate. For now, are you still sleeping in the same room? If so, separate by living in separate bedrooms, preferably on separate floors. At least where I live, that is also considered legal separation (a necessary step towards divorce).

To this day, I wonder if things would've been different if I had refused to move out and stayed at home.

I say don't go.

Take care,

Jen

There is no specific link, they reply to me and send me 2x4 the same way I did to you now. Unless you are endangering your W & 2 D by staying ... physical abuse or verbal abuse (unable to hold your anger) ... you have to stay, no choice. You have to fight for yourself first before you could fight for your M. Having say this, you should stil concentrate on Plan A (show changes), absolutly NO LB and fillin ENs a s much as she allow you to ... if fillin ENs become annying behavior or she rejects you, you should stop it.

If you can't handle no LB then you have an issue that you have to take care first before you could try to save your M.

-rh-

JEn brown .. thanks for the input.. everyone is telling me to stay and ues if I do go the girls are going to think that I deserted them..She is talking aboyut leaving and will take the girls with her..it is so important that we sepoerate .. she is saying by the end of the month .. one of us wil be gone..she says dont touch me.. so no ENs being met.. she says thatit is over.. " The ship has sailed".. get with it...
we have not been in the same bed for over a month and a half..she is in the livingroom on a hidabed..I dont know how to find true happiness
and fix myself and build confidence which all the women here says that is what they liike in a man..simply because I am focusing on the M... past advise has been to forget the M and fix me..its hard to concentrate.. but i am doing my best..JEN>> the thing is that he A.. was short lived so she says and its over.. although Om is still around..the main point is that she dont love me and wants nothing to do with me...no reconsiliation possible.. at least I want it.. she says no way! I will continue to stand my ground on staying.. however if there is a seperation.. financially it would be better for me in starting a new life away from her..but your right she is the leavor.. let her go and find out how hard it is!!
REDHAT .. no abuse to them.. just alot of stress all around..By staying and her leaving I will also be in a empty house and paying for it..
she palns to never come back..so my main question is why put myself way in debt..when I can be in an aprtment at lewast for now regrouping to start a new life.. if she wants me back she can call..what the use if she does not want me anyway..I guess the only thing is that I have to stay to show the girls that I amm not deserting them and the cause of destoying their lives.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

REDHAT..
if she wont let e fill in ENs. and is getting annoyed.. she says no matter how good I am she is till leaving..what to do.. the only thing I can guess is that her and OM..are still talking and palnning a reunion which ay include living together some day very soon..so just try plan A and dont EN her what so ever.. she hates it if I see her naked in the bathroom coming out of the shower.. just goes nuts...but we only have one .. and everyone has to get ready in the AM.. I know there has to be a way to save the M..and get her back on track.. everyone says start with a good paln A..PLEASE PLEASE keep in mind that she was leaving me anyway the OM is apparently a seperate issue..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
...so my main question is why put myself way in debt..when I can be in an aprtment at lewast for now regrouping to start a new life.. if she wants me back she can call..what the use if she does not want me anyway..I guess the only thing is that I have to stay to show the girls that I amm not deserting them and the cause of destoying their lives.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>You already answering your own question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . The second most important is for you down the road could say "I try my best and put my M more important than anything including $". let her do all the work and move out.

About fillin ENs, it is not plan A !, not even NO LB is a plan A. Plan A is for you to show you are a change man. You could show it via your actions to your D and people around you. NO LB is a requirement for any plan and forever. Fillin ENs is an attempt to raise up LB$, if she rejects you then you have to honor her wish otherwise it becomes an LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

2x4 .... IMHO, You should not listen to her fogesse ... she wants you right where she wants you to be. WS uses all words, actions, excuses, lies and decefit even to themself ... to prolong their A !. Here is a link to check.

-rh-

Listen to rh, he knows what he's talkin about!
I have been following your story and it is kinda similar to mine. I found out about H's A 1/03 and it has spiraled down ever since. I had big LB problem, but now it is just a matter of us living in the same house. No talking to each other and staying in seperate rooms (sleeping and just sitting) Now I don't know if H is still having A or is getting back with XW.

The thing is, YOU DON'T LEAVE. I told H same thing, "if you're not happy, you need to leave". Now he just sleeps here, that's all. And I'm starting to be ok with it. I don't follow him and I really don't care where he is at this point. All I know is I wish it were over with already. But these things take time and I know I am not leaving this house.

I know it's hard. I have a wonderful D and I know that I am doing the best I can for her sake (and mine). I have started doing more things with her. She brought home report card with all A's and B's! I know there must be something I'm doing right there! So keep your chin up and try not to react to WW. It can be done. Just try to step back and watch. that's all you can do. Distance yourself from her by not reacting to her.

REDHAT
she is spending the afternoon on the phone looking for aprtments..she will leave and take the girls.. if she says she will.. you can bet on it.. shes going.. no bluffing..I dont really know if the A is still on.. she says no..but still sees him.. I have gotten a few of those lines..but she is standing her ground and no admitting it.. no mater what the girls are going to be upset.. by me saying that i will move out is that if I am by myself in the empty home..I'll be miserable..I cannot stop her from taking the girls..and leaving..this is so trying with her being so secretive..try to plan A.best I can...even though it most likely wont help..no fill ENs.. thanks...again.. try to keep with the staying put...but what is the real purpose for staying put... and not moving...if she is sick of me an dwants nothing to do with me... what amm i doing by staying??... just making matter worse for MM..she isn't coming back..idf she does it would be a miracle..
Thanks
I
HANGING ON

thanks to you as well..I dont even think my wife would go for that.. you see she really dont love me..and can't wait to get apart..so again.. On one hand I want her to get the H$LL but on the other hand I dont want to hurt my chldren from having them move with my WW..yet again if I leave my 2d will be devastated by dad leaving..either way I'm scre^ed..she is already in another room..
but why stay and take the agony of being totally alone,,,,I am an emotional wreck...and she knows that if she pushes hard enough I will cave..again..what is the purpose of me staying, aside from me not being the one wants to end the marriage .. she says that its over and not a snowballs chhance of getting back together???
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

marathonman,

Let her leave ... you reach a few points, first you could tell your D that you don't deserted them. Second, let her realize her fantasy and work on it. Home is a symbolic place for a family, specially for your 2 D. There are some special comfort being there and don't let your W to spoil it with OM. You could decide what to do after she move out.

She could take the kids but you force her to give you custody agreement. The same way you could take the kids and she could not do anything. Just tell her to leave the girls with you while she is setting up her place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . If she refuse and don't want to talk about it ... I would run to the nearest court house and file a temporary custody !. Let her have visitation only.

Listen, this is a triage time. You have to be strong and start counting your support !. How are you going to tend your D when you have them ?. Call your closest family that you could depend on ... you never know, she might just file RO and get you out to the street. Get medication to calm you down and also be ready to take vacation/sick time. We are allow to take our sick time to take care this time of mess, check with your human resource personnel. Document everything !. Get ready to have your own checking account and also get ready to change the house key once she move out.

Meanwhile, NO LB and keep your plan A ... help her out to look for apartment if she allow you to. She wants out ... help her to get out. Be the one that "get it", anything else is LB.

I always say, we try to save M, to save WW form OM if there is one, to save our kids, to save our sanity. Right now you could only do the last two, do it well. Hope WW will come around in time.

-rh-

[ April 06, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

I know that home is a symbolic place..however... If I have to but her out I will end up bankrupt..and she will get the house anyway.I cannot get a temp r/o from court since she is mom and a very good one.. she wil fight it court and I will lose everything due to my major LB with WW..I can try to do a good paln A and try to fix me.. but again she is not coming back..I know it now..I would like to think that is all a dream but it very real..no chance ever of reconsiling..
i just sit back for a few days and see what see is doing.. she is being very secretive.. what I'm scared of is coming home and the palce being empty....this is a very traige time...I'm losing my mind here..the woman is set in her ways and don't care about her family... she says she does,, but the family in her eyes wont include me..I should just say the H$LL with it..symbolic or not she will not be coming home to me....

MM, you have to understand that there is no quick fix or blue pill that you could give it ot her to wake up (the matrix). I gave you my oppinion the same way I would do it if I am in your shoes. It is up to you to walk or try it. Rather than focusing on what has lost you should focusing on what you could do.
1. You could plan A even 1 day good plan A is still plan A that she would remember.
2. Avoid LB since evey LB you do might wipe out your effort of plan A (nullified it).
3. You have to stay, for your kids, even you have to move out the next month ... you have to. (I moved out after 5 months, sold my place and split the proceed for me to buy a house)
4. Just take her decision and help her out to move out.
5. I would go home an spent time as much as you can so that you could show your plan A via your action to your D.
6. Post here to vent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your M might not be salvageable but you have to make sure that it is safe for her to come back if she want to (NO LB) and make sure that it would be different (plan A). If she still dead set of leaving you, it is her choice and her loses ... nothing you could do but you do your part.

-rh-

[ April 06, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

1) Redhat is right; stay, stay, stay. Stay, and if she leaves, and you need to sell the house and move out the month after, that's still better than you leaving. (BTW - is the house in both your names? or just yours? Can you sell it without her approval? Maybe talk to a lawyer about your options.)
2) Have you talked to a lawyer about custody issues? You should know your rights.
3) My heart goes out to you. You total frustration and feelins of powerlessness are coming through loud and clear in your posts. I wish we had some magical advice to help things get better and fast, but we don't. Please just know that I'm thinking of you!

Jen

$h!+, marathonman. WSs ALL say what you're W is saying. Mine did! And she never left. Still says some of those things when we talk R, but I know they don't mean what she thinks they do.

DON"T MOVE OUT. I can't stress that enough. Get with a lawyer if you can, or a family mediator possibly even better. I hear they're better at getting estranged spouses talking together better than lawyers.

Once again, DON"T MOVE OUT.

-Qfwfq
P.S. Don't move out!!!!!

REDHAT/JEN/Q
she is saying that come H%ll or high water we will be seperated by the end of the month.. I understand that I should not leave and most likely will stick to my guns...I will talk to my lawyer concerning custody issues but I know that she wants to be fair with a 50/50..even though I belive my WW is different her in that she does not want to get back together..EVER... by her leaving it may give her a reality check.
JEN...I have been on the ADS for a couple of weeks now and I still feel like a WRECK...sure not doing much for my case of being a good exazmple and a good dad... I am scared that id the girls are with me I wil be either crying all the time or angry at them... for something they did not do!!
REDHAT.. lets start again with one day of Plan A that she will remember with no LBS..
This is all so hard.. I just have it in my heart that we could have such a wonderful life togther if she would give it a chance.. but I am just dreaming.. she just does not have any love for me..
I will stick to my guns and not move out!!
I am trusting you guys on this... I just hope it does not come back and bite me in the A$$..

Your still doing it , hoping and waiting for a sign from her that she will show you some hope . She is not going to do that YET , you have to PLAN A and not watch if she is noticing , she will notice it in the long run when you don't expect it .

Also if she does get the guts to move out and take girls you must talk to LAWYER to prevent alot of things , first to insure 50/50 and to make sure she can't move to far , you need to express this to a lawyer the she can't move more then x amount of miles away , look into the HOLE custdy thing in FULL .

DO NOT MOVE OUT , never give her the upper hand to later on say you moved by choice , no one can force you to leave if you are not abusive and your not so stay .

Stop fighting it is a fustrating circle that goes no where , belive me I know , it is a waste of precious time and your go energy .

Don't give her the power anymore to make you miserable , take the power back .

Say things like I love you enough to let you go , even though I know with work we could have a wonderful life . If she laughs , just say I wish I to could find the humor in loosing a family but I can't it is a very sad thing to be apart from some one you built a life with .

Anything but not LB 'ing , You can express your feelings but in away they are from the heart .

I know all to well about being in a relationship with someone who knows how to PUSH YOUR BUTTONS .

Just rember if you want her to see change then you need to show her she no longer can push those buttons cause you changed the things that will make you re-act to her nasty behavior .

3ISACROWD
I am really blowing the PlanA thing here.. I am so desperate at saving my M.. that I am LBing all over the place... It scares me that she is actually going to move out..either her or me by months end.. she says that I have been emotional abusive to her..and I am just trying to get things right..no harm intended..sh&t is going to hit the fan and I am going to end up with nothing.If she does move she wont go from fromthe girls school.. I know that... how do I take back the power,,.. she has already said that no matter how much I change .. the M is still over .. the ship has sailed!! <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>you can express your feelings in a way they are from the heart
.. how do I do that...I am so lost and trying to win her love!!
I stop the fighting. she may stay for a while..but I know we are through.. It really is so sad to lose someone you have built a life with...it is so devastating..as for her pushingmy buttons... I'll just have to turn the other cheek...this morning she emailed me and said that she cancelled our joint visa.... she could not tell me to my face..she has already chaged bank accounts... whats next??? there really is trouble a brewing and I am going ton get it up the A$$..
I am just trying to get by.. she thinks that Iam being a baby and should accept things and act like an adult... she has no idea what pain I am going through.. will try to stay away from fights and plan A the best I can with iut her pushing my buttons...

MM,

Sorry I have been gone for so long...a little busy (if you have been watching TV, you can see all of us in the military are a little busy lately!).

3isacrowd is exactly right! Heed those words.

I want to give you an analogy here to help you. You are marathonman, so let's using running. I am your running coach, and I tell you before you start several things.

this race is very long (let's say 30 miles).</li>
You are the number 2 ranked runner in the race.</li>
The number 1 ranked runner is great, but has his flaws. His name is "YourMarriage."</li>
You can win this race, but you have to listen to your coach, and run YOUR race.</li>

That being said, "YourMarriage (YM)" is noted for taking off VERy quickly. The first half of the marathon, count on YM taking a very large and commanding lead. but YM's achilles heel is that it has no endurance. Once it reaches the half way point, it will begin to "peter out" and start slowing down.
Now, you are the number one endurance runner. If you will follow the plan and run your race, you will eventually catch YM. For awhile, YM will probably move far ahead...even to the point that you cant see YM anymore. Do not try to sprint after YM...you will not catch YM that way. YM runs its race (an affair) in its own way. You run your race. keep plugging away, even when you dont see YM ahead. even when you are only at mile 8 of 30. even once YM starts slowing down around mile 15, you may not even see YM and start catching up visually until around mile 20-25. Keep running YOUR race!

Once you see YM off in the distance, and you realize that you are catching up…don't panic…don't sprint after YM. Keep running YOUR race!

Eventually, around mile 27-28, you will begin to close on YM. YM will begin to notice that you are catching up. That what YM was doing is no longer working (the affair). That you are starting to get back in the picture. At times, YM will try to turn on the speed to pull away from you again. Don't panic. It wont last. Keep running YOUR race.

In the end, if you run YOUR race, I don't see you winning. I see you catching Your marriage as you cross the finish line. And when you do, your wife will be waiting there for both of you. If you don't run your race, you may get too tired and just quit. And your wife will be alone at that finish line, and someone else will take her eventually. Or you will make your race so very painful, more than it should. So, in the end, when you need that extra wind…that extra "kick", it wont be there to catch YM.

MM, this truly is a marathon…the hardest one you have ever run. STOP trying to run the forty! You are just now getting out of the blocks. Mile one is just passing and you are worried about mile 29. Don't worry about YM. Don't worry about the other runners (OM). Run YOUR race. Really, that's all you can do anyway. If you do, the odds are in your favor that you will end up on top in the end.

We will ride the bikes or cars next to you, trying to encourage you along. But we cannot run this race for you. Run YOUR race. Let God handle the rest.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for dropping by.. I really needed to hear from you...I am crying my eyes out as I read your pep talk and respond..I Know that this is a long race.. but if you read my last few posts..you cann see how discouraged I am getting..I am so very scared.
here I go point by point !
first of all as faras the OM... according to my W.. it is over..even before him .. the main issue was she does not love me...and does not want to be with me...the A.. according to her happened afterwards..now onwards!!
1. she changed bank accounts, cancelled our joint credit card
2. she is looking for an aprtment for both her and the girls.. says it is just too stressful
3. reading a book entitled the emotionally abused woman.. given to her by a sicial worker friend
4. says ship has sailed and she is not coming back
5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it
6.says no matter how great I get she is not coming back
7. nO interest in saving M
everyone one is telling me to stay.. If she moves out, she will limit custody.. and will end up paying child support..I will lose house and be bankrupt.
8. If I leave girls will think that dad deserted them and will be devastated.

MOrtarman...I know you are trying to help me...but I am out of time..I am such a wreck.. even with the ads.. maybe i am not taking enough...I love her so much but she is being so close minded.. getting more angry with me and physical contact.. not even a touch ..I am trying to be the best MM possible but then I LB badly..I only wish I could speak to you mono a mono.. so you can crack me one..she wants out so bad I know she will never come back to me... it would be such a miracle..but I know it is now impossible..The race is started three months ago and I am still in the blocks.. she is at mile 15 or further.. she does not want me to catch her.. she does not love me...she wants a new life without me..how can you think that I can change her mind? she is just so angry and tired of me..I have just been wimpering and lbing all over the place...she says that one way or another we will be in seperate places by the end of april...and her taking the girls with her...you are soooo right this is the longest marathon ever but she wont be there at the end to cross the finish libne with me... I know it.. I am just prolonging the agony... what she wants is to maybe get the OM back in her intimate life and start bew with him..although he says that it is over..who knows,,,I have stopped praying because I am ready to throw in the towel and cash in the chips...I want to believe that God wont let me down but I have not seen many signs that he is near...the only positive note I have is that my W says that the OM really called off what they had.. I am rambling now but you know what Im trying to say..
Thanks so much for being there!!!

[ April 07, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

Okay, MM. Let's continue. You are doing well, by the way. You may not think so. But you are. Baby steps so far…but steps nonetheless.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MORTARMAN Thanks for dropping by.. I really needed to hear from you...I am crying my eyes out as I read your pep talk and respond..I Know that this is a long race.. but if you read my last few posts..you cann see how discouraged I am getting..I am so very scared. <hr /></blockquote>Okay. No problem being scared. Courage is not the absence of fear. Hang in there…you are doing well under the circumstances.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> here I go point by point ! first of all as faras the OM... according to my W.. it is over..even before him .. the main issue was she does not love me...and does not want to be with me...the A.. according to her happened afterwards..now onwards!! <hr /></blockquote>My wife said these EXACT things. It may look and sound real…and to her, they are. But I assure you, it is fog talk. I thought it wasn't either. She was so serious…so determined. But she is only fooling herself. Do not let her fool you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. she changed bank accounts, cancelled our joint credit card<hr /></blockquote>My wife did the same thing right before she moved out. Typical stuff. Of course, 8 months later, we are re-joining our accounts together. Remember, you are talking about one battle in a large war.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2. she is looking for an apartment for both her and the girls.. says it is just too stressful<hr /></blockquote>Mine did the same. Said the same. But you know what? I have refused to give up my three kids. I took care of them by myself (with help from family and friends) for the 8 months she was gone. Didn't think I had it in me. But I did. My wife garnered a lot of respect for me because of what I did with the kids, for the most part. You do not have to let those kids go without a fight She wants to move? She wants to destroy the family? Let her do so on her own. Don't let her take the girls. Fight it Sure you are a male and the courts lean toward mothers. But if you get a good attorney and judge, they will make sure that in the best interest of the kids, they should stay in THEIR home…not move to a new one. But you will have to act first on this one. Sure it is a huge LB at first. But in the end, your wife will respect you for fighting for and caring for your girls. Remember, that is one thing you both share…the love for those two girls No OM can take away that fact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 3. reading a book entitled the emotionally abused woman.. given to her by a sicial worker <hr /></blockquote>My wife read that too. While you may have been involved in some emotional abuse (and if you were, you need to seek help and better yourself…this is what you do in Plan A!), that book will only help solidify her determination to leave. Nothing you can do about this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 4. says ship has sailed and she is not coming back<hr /></blockquote>They all do MM! They ALL do!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it<hr /></blockquote>Sounds like you need to be talking to a new therapist. Find someone that believes in saving marriages…not taking you money and advising you to take the easy way out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 6.says no matter how great I get she is not coming back<hr /></blockquote>Fog talk..psycho babble. She is no different than my wife. Mine said the same exact things over and over. And look who was in my bed last night…and happy to be with me! Stop getting caught in the disinformation and fog of each battle Stay focused on the end result of the war.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 7. nO interest in saving M one is telling me to stay.. If she moves out, she will limit custody.. and will end up paying child support..I will lose house and be bankrupt. <hr /></blockquote>How she gonna do all this? You abuse her or the kids? You have a record? Short of that…she is going to have a battle on her hands. While trying to save your marriage, you need to get your ducks in a row also. Start documenting EVERYTHING she says and does. See an attorney…have temporary custody paperwork made up and standing by. As soon as it looks like she is moving, have him serve her. Now, you'll say to me at this point "But isnt that going to piss her off? Isnt that an LB?" Yes, and yes. But, if she is leaving…it is more important to protect your kids. And besides, it isnt entirely an LB. While your wife will be upset and mad, deep down, she will have respect for you for standing up and protecting your family and loving her children (your children). At worse, I see joint custody. Plan A is NOT about being a doormat. Don't pursue divorce. But protect yourself. And protect your, and your children's rights.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 8. If I leave girls will think that dad deserted them and will be devastated. <hr /></blockquote>So DON'T leave! Fight for them. Don't scream, yell or threaten. Just have your attorney draw up custody paperwork and stand by to have him serve them to your wife. Don't let wife take children around the OM. Etc. Fight for your family, for your wife's family…for your kids' family.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> MOrtarman...I know you are trying to help me...but I am out of time.. <hr /></blockquote>Out of time? You trying to catch a train? Out of time? Because you might not be able to force her to stop from moving out, or being with OM? Yeah, you're out of time…especially with that attitude. She senses this, and it is making her want to run faster away from you. I thought I was out of time so many times…especially after my screwups. Go back and look at my posts again. And look where we are now. Your situation is really not unique.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am such a wreck.. even with the ads.. maybe i am not taking enough... <hr /></blockquote>Maybe not. See the doc and have him check your levels…you might need a stronger dose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I love her so much but she is being so close minded.. <hr /></blockquote>She is not unique. It will get worse before it gets better. Sorry to tell you that…but the short term does not look good. Focus on the long term. That is where you have your best shot. The odds are in your favor long term.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> getting more angry with me and physical contact.. not even a touch .. <hr /></blockquote>Not surprising. Happens with all WSs. Get used to it. I know it is hard.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am trying to be the best MM possible but then I LB badly.. <hr /></blockquote>So did I. Keep moving forward. You fall down? Pick yourself up and keep moving. Learn each day. It will get better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I only wish I could speak to you mono a mono.. so you can crack me one.. <hr /></blockquote>Naaahhh. I wont crack you one. I understand what you are going through. But you will remain in this pain as long as you allow yourself to stay there. Once you trust the plan, and start working on YOU, then you will see progress.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> she wants out so bad I know she will never come back to me... it would be such a miracle..but I know it is now impossible.. <hr /></blockquote>I said the EXACT SAME THING! Look where my wife is now. Don't be drawn into the fog too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The race is started three months ago and I am still in the blocks.. she is at mile 15 or further.. she does not want me to catch her.. <hr /></blockquote>Of course she doesn't. otherwise, she would be happily sitting at home with you. But hat doesn't mean you wont catch her, and you wont pull her out of the fog. As a matter of fact, it isnt even about catching her. Just run your race…she will be there. And it isnt about pulling her out of the fog. She WILL walk out on her own. You may be there when she does…you may not. But you now have the power.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> she does not love me...she wants a new life without me.. <hr /></blockquote>You do not know if she loves you or not. Why? Because she doesn't know. Did she tell you this? And you BELIEVE her? Come on. I believed my wife also. She said she didn't love me anymore, that she felt she married the wrong person, blah, blah, blah. Fog talk. Psychobabble! Did she mean it? She THOUGHT she did. But wait until she is out of the fog. Then hear what she says. When she is out of the fog and then says she doesn't love you…then believe it. Until then, she is just "under the influence" and doesn't know what the hell she is doing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> how can you think that I can change her mind? <hr /></blockquote>You cant. She is in the fog, and cannot hear you. Work on yourself. Once the fog runs its course, only THEN will you get the chance to change her mind. Until then, work on you and let her see the changes. So when she does come out of the fog, she will see a new MM.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> she is just so angry and tired of me..I have just been wimpering and lbing all over the place... <hr /></blockquote>Who wants to hear wimpering and crying? Not very appealing. I know you have to do this…so find a male friend to do so with…or a counselor…or pastor…or even here. NOT IN FRONT OF HER! Don't cry, beg, plead, etc. Be strong. Be resolute and confident. Women love confident men. The OM is confident. Mine was too. It wasn't until I showed my confidence again that my wife again began to respect me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> she says that one way or another we will be in seperate places by the end of april... <hr /></blockquote>And maybe you will be. This is not the end though, as you can see from my position. It may just be the dose of reality she may need…a slap in the face from the REAL world!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> and her taking the girls with her... <hr /></blockquote>Don't LET her take them She wants to leave the family, then let her leave alone. You be the best Dad you can. While she will be angry at you for fighting for custody, deep down, it will begin to build respect for you within her. She will see that you are trying to be the family man she wanted. It will be an LB at first, but will sow the seeds of respect for you that will bear fruit later. No threats on taking the kids. Just speak plainly that you want your family to remain. And that you believe in the marriage and what can be. If she wants to leave, then do so. But the girls are going to stay in their home. We can work out visitation. But I want my family to stay together…all of us. And that is why I am seeking custody. Then leave it alone. She will be angry, and try to bully you into this. Stick to your ground. Steve Harley told me last year that my biggest asset was those kids in saving my marriage. And by me having custody, it was even better. By me being a great dad in front of my wife, she started to realize that she was missing out on something that the OM could not give her And my wife even admitted two weeks ago that the first reason she decided to come back was because she wanted her family back. Stick to your guns.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> you are soooo right this is the longest marathon ever but she wont be there at the end to cross the finish libne with me... I know it.. <hr /></blockquote>Like I knew it last June, September, October, December? Read my posts. MM, YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS! You are not unique, nor is your wife. Sure, she MIGHT not be there in the end. But if you follow the plan, the odds are in YOUR favor. Definitely not in the OM's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am just prolonging the agony... what she wants is to maybe get the OM back in her intimate life and start bew with him..although he says that it is over..who knows,,, <hr /></blockquote>Maybe she wants to do this. Maybe she will. Who knows? She doesn't. neither do you. But it is out of your control. Take care of what YOU can. Let God handle the rest. Read Galatians 6…it is a promise from God to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have stopped praying because I am ready to throw in the towel and cash in the chips...I want to believe that God wont let me down but I have not seen many signs that he is near... <hr /></blockquote>Read my last post above. You know He is near. It is just hard to see Him or hear Him. Get a book from the bookstore that has God's promises in them. Read them. He promised these things. You think He lied to you? Believe Him and believe in Him. Keep talking to Him (pray) it is through prayer that we find out His will, and helps see what He is doing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> the only positive note I have is that my W says that the OM really called off what they had.. I am rambling now but you know what Im trying to say.. <hr /></blockquote>Well, good The OM is playing around here with her. LBing her. That's good! But not enough. My wife's OM did the same things. She still pursued him. This must run its course MM. You cannot shortcut a 30 mile marathon. It has to go 30 miles! Get that in your mind, and start running your race. Get out of the blocks NOW. It is not too late. But it might be if you don't get moving

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Great metaphor! Thanks for coming back to marathonman's aid. He needs it. He will MAKE it, too!

"5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it"

Yep. Fire this idiot!

-Qfwfq

Wow! Today is my first time on this board. With all the pain I have been going through for the last two months I felt I needed some sort of help, support, comfort, whatever you want to call it. Did I ever find it. Marathonman is going through almost the identical thing I am. My wife is saying she is fed up and is leaving. She has someone else but is saying that it is over (but I know it is not because of the way she treats me). She is not thinking clearly and is ready to break up our family (I have two children 8 and 3).
Wow! We are in the same boat my friend. It may sound sick, but I actually feel better...a little.
My wife has treated me worse than any other human being has ever treated me. And why? For some 34 year old bum who lives at home with his mother and 10 year old son (we are 29).
I don't know how much longer I can take this either. I pray for God to only be merciful and not allow me to wake up the next morning. The pain is unbearable.

So, Marathonman, just know, someone is going through the exact same thing. I am convinced that there is nothing more we can do. There are no words we can say to make things better. There are no acts of kindness that can change our wive's minds. It is out of our control. The Bible says that the king's heart is in the Lord's hand and He changes it whatever way He pleases. All we can do is pray that the Lord change our wive's hearts. In the beginning, my wife was on a roller coaster. One day she would be really nice, one day she would be the devil. Now, she's just the devil. I have thoughts of moving out CONSTANTLY. But like you said, my children may think I deserted them so I will NEVER do that. NEVER!

Hang in there, my man.

Dear MarathanMan,

I am semi-retired from MBers, but I do read occasionally, especially the really long posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am sorry for your pain, sorry that your wife plans on moving out. In some ways I am blessed that, although my H's affair involved him having a child by the other woman, he never wanted to leave. I have told him "thank you" for not leaving me, for chosing the hard thing--to stay and rebuild what was so badly damaged. So, I haven't been quite where you have been, but I think I have felt what your wife seems to be feeling now. Early in our marriage (before his A) our arguments were loud and scary. His anger was big and although he was never physically abusive I was afraid of him. His words cut like knives.

Before I start, at one time (pre-A) we were in marriage counseling. There was much wrong with the counselor (like proposing that since H wanted to be out of the house a lot--softball, pool, Officer's Club--you name it, if it invovled sports followed by beer and guy talk, he wanted to do it). She did however, say one thing to me privately that made a huge amount of sense to me. I was clinging and begging H to spend more time with me, threating what might happen if he didn't spend more time, etc.

Her: "Is what you are doing working?"

Me: No. It seems to be making the problem worse.

Her: So what do you do when he doesn't listen to what you are saying?

Me: I say it again and louder.

Her: Does that work?

Me: No

Her: Then why don't you try something different. Most people get stuck in certain behavioral patterns that don't work and they do exactly what you are doing--they try the same thing louder and more often.

Me: It's hard to change.

Her: So try it for awhile. If it doesn't work, you can go back to being loud, clinging and begging.

(Laughter on both sides.)

Her: You are not your behaviors. Don't be so invested in them. You can change how you react to any situation or provocation. You alone are in control of what you say and do.

MarathonMan, what you are doing is not working. What are you going to do differently? Today? Pick one thing and change it. "No LBers" from a guy who is throwing LBers around at your rate, is too big a change in one day.

How about? "The next time she provokes an argument I will say X and leave the house for X minutes." You fill in what you will say. It can be as simple as "I don't want to argue. I am going to talk a walk for 30 minutes." or it could be "I understand, I get it that our arguments, my anger, my words, have hurt you. I am sorry and I don't want to hurt you, so I am going to take a walk for 30 minutes." Don't even go to the place where you tell her how she has hurt you. Right now, you can't get through to her. So, pick out what you are going to say, practice it 20 times a day and then do it--get out of each other's faces before someone gets seriously hurt. Walk away. (My pastor asked me the day after D-day if I was going to do anything that would wind me up in jail. If so, he told me, I needed to get out of the house. As you'll see later, I didn't do anything but I wish I had gone to see my family for a week or two until the worst of my anger was over.

You have asked for some advice, I would like to concentrate on some very specific things you might do:

1. Lower your voice. Women do not want to be married to a man who screams at them--even if they are busy screaming back at him. I would bet a major problem it is your verbal LBers. Many men come across in arguments with their wives as much louder and more threatening than they think. Just simply your size, physical strength and lower speaking (yelling?) voice give you an intimidating appearance. Lower your voice. Do not yell. Break off, walk away from any and all arguments. Put a plug in the love bank. Plug the hole at the bottom that drains out any LB$ that you can put in the top. Been in the military? Remember that old phrase? "One awshyt cancels out 20 attaboys." In marriage the ratio is even less forgiving.

2. Do not initiate or ask for any physical contact. She has made a request and you seem to be ignoring it. Show her that you understand that she doesn't want you touching her. (That has got to be very, very painful, but all of us have a right not to be touched when we don't want to be. Of course it isn't abuse to hug your wife, but show her that you understand what she needs right now and give it to her. Think of it as a gift.)

You concentrate on physical affection, not meaning sexual fulfillment, as if it were her only need. She doesn't seem to feel safe right now, for whatever reason, right or wrong. Maybe that book she is reading is twisting her mind or maybe she, as a woman, perceives the world differently than you do. She has other needs, maybe these are more open to you right now.

If she won't fill out the emotional needs questionnaire, then you fill it out as if you were her. Then try to meet any of those other needs that are open to you.

3. Concentrate on your daughters. Do not snap at them, do not let your marriage problems distract you from them. They need you right now. My guess is if they are over the age of 4 they know a lot more about what is going on than you would suspect and they are really hurting. If you can't be around your wife, take them out by yourself in the early evening (with her agreement).

The quickest way to a woman's heart is to be kind to her children.

4. Find a therapist for yourself. Just getting a scrip from the doc for an anti-d is only half the battle. I suggest someone who is a strong advocate of cognitive therapy. You need to talk this out with someone. A pastor who does counseling might even be best. At the very least go to one of the online book stores and find a good book on cognitive therapy. Work the program--two or three hours a day. Get a notebook and work the program. Put youself back in control of your thoughts and your words.

5. Join a club, get a hobby, get out of the house. It is a great distraction and very appealing to our spouses to see us pursuing an interest. It is a good way to appear confident to her even if you aren't. All stay-at-home parents have to find a way to establish their own value in their own eyes. Nothing takes away your self-esteem and sense of being an interesting person as wiping up baby spit and babbling all day to little ones. Not to mention that most of our vocabulary has become very "cute" and revolves around the toilet.

You are responsible for every single word that comes out of your mouth--no matter how angry you are at the time. The trick is not talking while you are furious. Even if she is verbally abusive, even if she LBs like a maniac, refuse to engage in that behavior. Make yourself the better person.

I hope things get better for you. Many couples reconcile after a separation. Listen to MortarMan; he has good advice. What you are doing isn't working. Are you strong enough/flexible enough to stop and try something different? Even if she leaves (which you can't prevent) what do you want her last impression of living with you to be? Crying? Yelling? or some quiet self-confident reassurance that coming home would be a safe thing to do because you have yourself under control?

Oh, yes, I did have to follow my own advice. I was ape [censored] furious about his affair and a child born in the face of my infertility. We were in the middle of adopting our two boys on D-day. They had spent the summer with us on a foster/pre-adopt program and were then back in Russia waiting for us to come get them. If I left the marriage, I lost my children forever (no one allows you to adopt for 2 or 3 years following a divorce--for good reason). I had held those children, bathed them, fed them, they were mine already and their loss would have been like a death. I wanted to die, I felt trapped.

I spent the first two weeks after D-day screaming obscenities and threatening (once) to kill him in his sleep, and kill her and once (to my great shame) threatening to kill that innocent child. I am normally a good, loving and easy-going person. Kindness and forgiveness have been the cornerstones of my life. I was so out of control I threw that all away. I couldn't stand who I was becoming. I felt such great shame at my rage and the filth pouring out of my mouth. I clamped my mouth shut and never once screamed at him again even though we had a hideously long and difficult recovery with relapses of the affair (emotional, not physical). It took a very long time for them to break the habit of daily (hour long) phone calls and him providing her emotional support. Not once did I ever scream again. It would have only pushed him away instead of draw him to me which is what I wanted to do. I was where you are. Honestly, it doesn't feel like it, but it is a matter of self-control.

Peace,
MJ

[ April 08, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]

WOW!!!! WHERE DO I START HERE!!!
MORTARMAN!!
It is amazing how everything seemed to be the same for you.. I'll just go into a few of the major points you listed...The psychologist is suppose to be one of the best in helping get couples back together.. but she says that it takes two to want to work at it.. I have a session alone with her next week and will tell her what I want to do.. if she cant see it..I will go see someone else..
2. With her looking at apartments..if I get a tempoarary custody order she would hit the rof and challenge it.. in fact I would bet she has already got one in the works for me...My Lawyer is gone to the carribean for two weeks so I won't see her to get one..she will ytake the girls and move out. therefore she will have no reason to come back.. in canada it is going to be hard for me to get custody.. she has alearedy done up a letter to give to a judge showing the every day stuff she does to get the girls ready for school and the litle that I do.. It really makes me look bad and her look like the best thing since sliced bread..
Again back to the starting gates.. No LBS stick to my guns and try to not let her take the girls..
I am sitting down with her tonight and h=was going to tell het that I may be willing to move out... I am sure that would be a grave mistake...but it still gives the girls here home with maybe a chance down the road for Mrs. MM to se that chages in me..but you guys have gone through this,, and the advise is to stay put..
again.. I wont forget to prsy .. thaks for the words.. I'll copy of the posts and review again.

Q.. one chance at the psych.... if she does not want to help.. she gets the boot!!!!

Solon... I am not the perfect poster child for listening.. but Mortarman has been a saviour to me..DONT GIVE UP!!! TRY TO MAKE the best Solon...you can.. No LB's..Pray Pray ..
I wish the bad dream will be over as well.. but we cannot give up.. Our children need us...

NARY JANES
If there is a chance she will stay for a while,,, have to stop LBIng..your right...lower my voice,, your dont know me do you??.. I am not loud but at times can sound like a bear..I will try to be calm at all times.. evennthough the thoughts of the OM plague my mind..
I am actually doing okay on the touching thing..doing my best but it hurts not to be held.. I do have some real good team mates .. women that have been very supportive and undertanding.. a hug from one of them today got me by..and gave me back some self worth..
I have snapped at the girls but am doing my best to give them the nicest quiet dad possible...your right there.. maybe Mrs. MM will notice ..
On the hobby thing.. once my training gets into full swing.. the marathon tarining will take up a great deal of time and occupy me.. I do have goods friends there...
I know that I am responsible for ever word that comes out of my mouth.. and you are right.. learn to shut up.. when I amm angry it just wont do any good!!!
I have to show her that I am a confident person.. not only for myself but for her opinion of me being able to care for the girls while we are apart...
great advise in just shutting up!!

MORTARMAN
once again thanks for keeping your eyes on me...
my only fear is that I wont be able to stop her from taking the girls..and thatshe is really out iof the fog.. and is on her way down the road..
By moving out she will get her dose of reality ..
thanks to all of you!!

MaryJanes:

You are an inspiration!!!

Marathonman: I like the tone of your last post! You've come so far in such a short time!

All my best,
-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
Thanks I really needed that..I guess mary jane telling me to shut up is a point that drives evreything home..this is really going to be a hrd road and you know.. judging by the way Mrs. MM is talking and acting.. I dont expect her out of the FOG for some time..I will just try to make me a better MM and maybe she will notice.. The race with my marriage is on...hopefully my wife will be at the finish line..In my heart I dont expect her back but I am going to do m y best for my 2d.. because they deserve a family..
Thanks to you for checking in on me..Tonight Mrs.MM wants to discus how we are going to seperate... as above she wants one of us out by the end of the month.. I am not going to yell.. or LB.. i hope I wont... if it does happen... she may force or guilt me out of the house...I am going to stand my ground at least for now.. I also hopr this exercise is not a waste of time since if she is alraedy out of the fog and is cionvinced that she does not love me.. I have to acceept it and let her go!!.. time to get back to working on fixing MM... cheers and thanks!

MARYJANES
where do I find the emotional needs questionaire.
I hope that is not a stupid question!!
Thanks

MM,

Your thread is long but filled with 'good reading stuff'. You have good support here. That Mortarman and Mj's post are GREAT!

Now just a 'touch' of the Orchid... I want to add that you need to let her go. Holding onto her is like squeezing a spring in your hand and you are getting tired from the resistance. Know when to hold 'em, know when to throw 'em, know when to walk away. know when to run... you know the song! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then count your blessing.

You have your daughters. They will need you in their lives right now more than ever.

Check out Redhat. He is one dad who has custody of his daughters. In CA no less. That is quite an accomplishment.

Look at your W this way. Right now she is NOT the woman you married. Not this character. Look for the one you married and if you don't see her, then don't spend time trying to turn the one in front of you back into her. She can't handle that. Her viewpoint and priorities is not the same as yours so every energy you expend will feel wasted.

Now conserve your energy (pulling back). Resolve that she is going to be with OM (cause she will anyway) and then use that time for you and children and figure out whether you really want that changed character as your W and mother of your children. You will find out your tolerance level and boundaries will help you through this crisis time.

Then let your support group (including your MC or Steve/Jennifer) help you cope.

I am not asking you to save your M. That goal is too far off. Right now you secure the safety of you and your children. Concentrate on the right stuff or you might lose your opportunity.

Focus, stay focus.... pray for a calm heart and a clear mind.

take care,
L.

ORCHID
thanks for the good point. last night major fight again.. she really wants out and I tell you there will be no way I will get custody my 2d.. I have not been abusive but she is a good talker...she know what she has to say..I have to let her go.. I am holding on to a crazy woman.. she surely is not he woman I married.. but the more I see her the more I am seeing that reconsiliation.. if that is even remotely possible, is a long way down the road..but the woman in front of me scares me... she is real evil..doing things behind my back concering our finances.ect..Like I said before I dont have much money so i cant afford any coucelling from Steve..and Mrs.MM would never go for it..I know that once we are seperated she and the other man will be going at it full blown with their affair.. its just a matter of time. while she went nuts on me last night i tried to stay as clam as I could . I think it actaully made her more angry.. but I had control.. she started to make threat like "your outof here buddy"... maybe today she will make up a story to get a court order...
none the less... you are right.. why waste my energy holding a spring...I have to look out for my 2D and be the best dad if I'm with them or not..
The sad thing about her mind sewt is that her friends and lawyer are saying she is being too kind to me and should have kicked me out long ago..Why.. because my wife said she did not love me and has had feeelings for OM for a long time and then stated an affair...and I am suppose to just deal with it! who does she think I am a machine..this is a real mess.. and it does not look good.. thanks for the tips.. I appreciate the help...
I

[ April 09, 2003, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

marathonman

Just a note about custody. Don't take anything for granted. My W and I have three boys ages 6, 10 and 13. My W has been the primary caretaker for all of these years while working parttime. My W admitted to three affairs over the last 2+ years in which two of them were full blown SF and the third was likely only kissing. My lawyer asked the courts for a psychological custody evaluation that involved the entire family. The court ordered this testing. I figured my W would come out of this like a shining star. She is well known in the area by community and church leaders, she can talk a good talk, and she is generally out going and well liked by all that know her.

The psychologist's report did not go well for her. In fact, he recommended to the court that I get primary custody and my W get visitation rights, if, among other things, she agrees to undergo additional psychotherapy to deal with some problems she has. I was floored by the evaluation. I was viewed as the more stable and best suited parent to raise our kids.

How does this apply to your case? Well, you never know. You might talk with your lawyer about getting a psychological evaluation done to determine you and your wife's fitness to get custody of the children. If nothing else, this report gave me confidence in my parenting abilities and helped me understand a little more about why my wife did what she did.

Good luck and take care of your kids. Try to be calm around them.

HoFS

HOFENCESITTER
Good advise.. my lawyer is going on vacation inthe next few days.. I will try to contact her and either ger a temp custodu or a family evauation.. the thing that scares me about tings like that,, is I might bew taken as unfit and get nothing.. I guess it goes with the low self esteem..

marathonman:

So, work on that self-esteem!!! You can do this! (you have to anyway, so you might as well do a good job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Take care,
-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
The atmosphere around MM house is going to get real dense tonight.. we have to discuss our seperation..she may guilt and shame me into leaving..but I wont be going..I have to continue on biting my tongue and try not to raise my voice or do any LBing.. although I do beleive in my heart she wont be coming back..It's in the cards..as long as I can I wil try to be the best MM possible.. but there is so much hate there she will be a long time coming out of the fog.. again if she is already out.. the air is clear and she is ready to start her life with the OM..the sad thing for her is that as Mortarman stated.. the stats of anything suceeding are not in her favour,,,but again.. she loves the guy and she has been his best friend for a few years.. thats why I believe my c hances of her coming back and falling back in love with me is remote...its hard to be with someone who does not genuinely love you..it hurts right to the bone.. My only chance is to follow my most rfecent advise from mary janes and Mortarman,,, and get with it.. fix myself and shutup.. not a mean word,, try to be the best dad...she may eventually come around.. I am not banking on it.. but its worth a shot.. for the sake of the girls...
thanks for letting me vent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

marathonman:

"The atmosphere around MM house is going to get real dense tonight.. we have to discuss our seperation..she may guilt and shame me into leaving..but I wont be going..I have to continue on biting my tongue and try not to raise my voice or do any LBing.. "

Just remember what MaryJanes said, and if you feel like you're about to LB, get up and go for a walk or something. Sure, doing that when she wants to be in control of the "proceedings" might be a LB to her point of view, but it's better than getting angry or getting drawn into an argument.

"although I do beleive in my heart she wont be coming back..It's in the cards.."

screw the cards! (I hate cards... ...RM said that a lot in emails to my W "I wanted to see you, but it wasn't in the cards"... sorry, minor trigger for ol' Qfwfq)

"but there is so much hate there she will be a long time coming out of the fog.. again if she is already out.. the air is clear and she is ready to start her life with the OM.."

Bank on THIS: she's IN THE FOG. or whatever metaphor you might want to use to describe a messed-up WS. She's there, alright. There's no possible way, no how, that she's firing on all 16 cylinders (harking back to Marmons and Cadillacs of the early 30s).

"but again.. she loves the guy and she has been his best friend for a few years.. thats why I believe my c hances of her coming back and falling back in love with me is remote..."

Hold onto your seat: My W's A started about 12 years ago, with a friend and coworker that she's known probably for about 15 years. He was pretty newly M'd when the A started. I never would have thought we'd have a chance, and I still struggle with my fears, but we're also still together, and incrementally coming to agreements about our R that we can both live with. People here will tell you I have a good chance. I hope they're right and I'm just too close to the problem to see it. I think you're too close to your problem to see the light at the end of the tunnel, too, and for exactly the same reasons I am. So, take heart in the "fact" that your chances are probably a LOT better than you think they are... ...just so long as you don't rest on your laurels (what are laurels, anyway?) and keep up the hard work!

"iMy only chance is to follow my most rfecent advise from mary janes and Mortarman,,, and get with it.. fix myself and shutup.. not a mean word,, try to be the best dad...she may eventually come around.. I am not banking on it.. but its worth a shot.. for the sake of the girls..."

And for the sake of you, and for the sake of your W. Really. Trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
Thanks.// like Mortarman , you seem to bring me back to reality..but again she said to me last night she will never come back to me..she said to me that after she told me..those five words "IDLYA"..that if she can make it too the end of the month of jan..she would live with the stress.. now its going onthe end of April and now she means it..I told her that things wont progress as fast as she wants..now she is saying the end of May at the lastest..what's up with that??? I was very proud of myself.. didn't LB very much but . I have to forget about the OM... the F^&ker is always on my mind..and it scares me that if my wife eevr comes back she will always have feelings for him and she will always be around him..
as for the cards.. you would have to see the way my WW is talking and acting.. it is in her face..
she says that the main raeson why she wants to leave so bad.. is that she cant stand to be around me..she means it!! how can this be FOG!!
it all seems so clear..
You mentioned that your W Affair started 12 years ago.. are you still with her?.. did you seperate.?...Is she still seeing the OM?..
I sure hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.. beacuse I am starting to run out of Gas and I'm scared of the dark... just a joke..seemed like something funny to throw in..
I have to continue to try to make myself a better MM.. if she does not come out of the fog.. I'll be a better person. what a hard battle this is turning into,,very painful..
not sure what laurels are myself... thanks for dropping in to check on me..maybe Mrs.MM wil open herf eyes soon and see a brand new MM..and wonder what she ever did..
I hope your right since things have not beeen good between us for a few years.. thats wht I think the chance of my marriage ever surviving and becoming a wonderful one.. is next to slim...
and the chances of an amzing relationshp between two best freiends..WW and OM.. becoming more apparent.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

JMVHO- I really think a separaton would be the best in your situation ,you don't see that you being around her is just as damaging to you in your attempt to PLAN A as it is for her in her state of FOG .

I could be wrong , very wrong but my H said, the very same thing to me and I said, the same as you .

It was so real , I thouhgt this could not be FOG , HE repeated every day that he HATED ME , was sick just to look at me , the thought of coming home and being around me even in same house made him ILL .'

I heard it all , and with that in your face trying to be the BEST YOU is next to impossiable because of your self esteem being so low .

I HAVE BEEN THERE , and so have alot of others .

When I got him out , it was horrible not picnic , but when I was around him it was easier to PLAN A

AND it made me better for my KIDS cause his attitude was not in my face .

YOU are talking the talk of plan A but not walking it .
NOT beating you up , just trying to give you my experiance , I am the worst at plan A .

I am trying to do it now and still have not gotten there and thats with knowing all I know after 2yrs.

HAVING OP on your mind night and day will ruin PLAN A every time and haveing no SELF ESTEEM .

Those 2 things in my opion are the things that kill PLAN A .

This PLAN A is like sucking up verbal abuse at evry turn and like some one getting hit you want to hit back .

Where you need to not hit back , BUT just put your hands up and block the SHOTS .

BE STRONG and HEALTHY , I really feel for you , my prayers are with you for you to see the wonderful person you are and to feel that power in you .

ONE more thing (I can ramble forever) Wake up early and start helping with those girls , get up before wife and pack there lunch or do it the night before .
TALK to them the night before and see what cloths can be laid out for school the next day .
Start with your KIDS to better yourself the reward is like nothing you will ever get from anything else .

Take a look at there homework no what there learning in school talk to them about it at dinner , show them your interset in them and your love . I don't know your schedule be these are some hints , MAKE sure you read to them , tell them a story , anything . DO it for you , if your wife takes care of them ,and has done all these things most of your M its time you joined in .

I am not saying there are not men out there that don't do it , BUT I know in a M some men become conplacent(can not spell ) that there W takes care of all those things and it is a part of M that WOMEN do want changed but some times won't ask they want there H to take the BULL BY THE HORNS .

This is all PLAN A to you being THE greatest DAD !

I am sure you are and that your girls love you very much , just take a look and see if theres more your W might think you could have done with helping out .

Marathon, our situations continue to go hand in hand. Yesterday my wife told me she is tired of me and just wants out (she has been saying this since the first of Feb). She said that we have too many problems. Me, being the philosophical type, said to her, "if we take all of what we have done to each other and put it away, like we agreed a week ago we would do, what problems do we have, now? What is our "problem"?" She could not answer and that only frustrated her even more. She is moving out next week.
I spoke with the OM and he made me SO angry I cannot even desribe it. He says that she needs him because I have hurt her so badly over a year ago. I am so hurt right now I do not know what to say. I spoke with my attorney and I am making plans on keeping my kids AT HOME with me. I am also making plans to where this fool cannot come near my children, which means if she wants to be with her children he can't be around her at the same time. My situation, as is yours, is depressing. I only pray that we can both get through it. I am optimistic though. I do believe that God will change her mind and she will see that her place is at home with me and the children. I believe she will fall in loev with me all over again. Every relationship has potential for pain and in fact, in every relationship there will come a time where the other person hurts the other. These other men will hurt our wives one day. Our wives WILL long to be back at HOME, home with their children and the man they made them with. We created life with our wives!! They will remember. Just so long as we continue to be kind (I cooked dinner for her again last night) one day they will come back. One day. But it hurts SO much right now. So much.

MM and Solon,

I will try to respond more in depth a little later because I do see some positive things happening here (okay...here's one...she wanted out in Jan...then April...now May...you see a pattern here MM? More later...).

Listen to solon. he is in the exact same spot you are. And where I was just months ago. I am where you are headed, if you do this right. Concentrate on getting where I am. Get off the day to day. I am months ahead of you. It will take months...maybe separation like we did...maybe her back with OM. But the months will take months. It will not be shortened. But both of you can damn well lengthen it.

Make your plan. See where I have been and where I am now. D-Day was one year ago last week. My wife moved back in two weeks ago after the year from hell. And now, today...we are celebrating our ten year anniversary TOGETHER.

It can happen. But understand this will take time. Like I said, I will respond to both of your posts later, when I have time because I see some very positive things there.

In His arms.

Solon, you are making a CLASSIC mistake that I don't see talked about here much - trying to use logic to argue with a WS. Your wife told you something, and you listend to the words and did not hear what she was saying. Then, you argued with her words, and won the argument, which told her that: A) you still don't understand her, and B) you do not value her opinions/feelings/thoughts - and in fact think they are WRONG. Don't think I am above this - I used to do it ALL THE TIME and still do it way too often. But I'm learning to change, so maybe I can help you along the path.

Let me re-phrase what she said in words I hope you will understand: "I feel like we have so many problems they are too many and too big to solve - I am overwhelmed, discouraged, guilt-ridden, and feel hopeless." A good response might be: "It sounds to me like you feel things are hopeless. I know it is really hard to work on things if you feel they are hopeless. It makes me sad to hear that, because though I agree we have problems, I think we can get through them, if we both work on them together. I am sorry for whatever I did to make you feel like this." Now, I know it is true she feels this way partly because she is involved with the OM, and that is not your responsibility, but you ARE responsible for the condition of your marriage pre-A. And one of the things that contributed to that was your inability to listen to the emotional message behind her words, so the response I suggested (which could easily be shortened to just the first sentence) shows you have already begun to change things. I considered adding a sentence in the proposed respnse about your willingness to change, but talk is cheap. You need to show her.

[ April 10, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]

Mortarman: did you see my reply at the end of Mortarman? It slipped to a back page.

Marathonman:

"QFWFQ
Thanks.// like Mortarman , you seem to bring me back to reality..but again she said to me last night she will never come back to me..she said to me that after she told me..those five words "IDLYA"..that if she can make it too the end of the month of jan..she would live with the stress.. now its going onthe end of April and now she means it..I told her that things wont progress as fast as she wants..now she is saying the end of May at the lastest..what's up with that???"

Stop trying to figure it out. For what it's worth, she's consciously or subconsciously trying to turn her words into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let her try! Trying and failing may be her only way to pull her head out of her nether regions!

"I was very proud of myself.. didn't LB very much but . I have to forget about the OM... the F^&ker is always on my mind.."

I still have times like this.

"and it scares me that if my wife eevr comes back she will always have feelings for him and she will always be around him.."

Always have feelings for him? Well, my W still insists that whe will have feelings for RM for the rest of her life, but will she? If others here are any indication, the answer is probably both yes and no. Yes, there will be some potential level of threat of resuming the addiction if they ever get back together again, and no, because if she really learns what she compromised of her OWN integrity - that she betrayed HERSELF - she won't want those feelings back.

"as for the cards.. you would have to see the way my WW is talking and acting.. it is in her face..
she says that the main raeson why she wants to leave so bad.. is that she cant stand to be around me..she means it!! how can this be FOG!!
it all seems so clear.."

"Seems" is the operative word here. It's fog. Bank on that.

"You mentioned that your W Affair started 12 years ago.. are you still with her?.."

Yes.

"did you seperate.?"

No, though I did move into our guest house for a week and tried to do a "Qfwfq plan B" with limited contact via email last July.

"...Is she still seeing the OM?.."

She hasn't seen him since November 2001, 2 months before D-day. She called him on the phone a couple weeks ago, though. He lives in NM, we're in So. Cal. She's a project manager on a research project. She hired him as a consultant, based on his specialty in her field of research. This job is probably going to last until October, possibly with extensions, then she's planning on quitting. I still have a hard time with her "need" to talk to him herself about the work, because she had told me a year ago that she would train a coworker to deal with him, but hasn't. But it's her choice. I would prefer she choose, herself, to end contact, rather than me insisting. If she refuses, over the long term, I will want out. But I don't think she will. Again, it's all about choice. It's her choice. I have mine as well.

"I sure hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.. beacuse I am starting to run out of Gas and I'm scared of the dark... just a joke..seemed like something funny to throw in.."

Keep those coming!!! If you look up my old posts from last year (as "2long") you'll see that humor is what keeps me going, particularly at the beginning of the process. If I didn't have my sometimes-revolting sense of humor, I wouldn't have made it this "far."

"I have to continue to try to make myself a better MM.. if she does not come out of the fog.. I'll be a better person."

And if she does come out of the fog, you'll be a better person.

"I hope your right since things have not beeen good between us for a few years.. thats wht I think the chance of my marriage ever surviving and becoming a wonderful one.. is next to slim..."

I have felt the same way for years, myself. Try not to agonize over "chances." Stop worrying about the past and the future. You have no control over them. You DO have control over the present. Live in the NOW.

"and the chances of an amzing relationshp between two best freiends..WW and OM.. becoming more apparent.."

Ah, yes. THAT fear. Remember, even if you and your W were "wrong" to begin with, her R with OM is based on lies, deceit, and theft (of your right to choose all this time). At least 95% of all M's born of affairs will FAIL within 5 years. Do you think that she and her OM will be among the lucky 5%? I wouldn't bet on that if I were you.

-Qfwfq

[ April 10, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]

MM....a quick thread hijack...

John, I did read it and will respond on my new update thread tomorrow. thanks.

MM...listen to Q...he really stated what I wanted to.

I agree..thanks Q..
but her I go!!
best friends,,, they care a lot about each other..he is going noooowhere...she has told ne that he called it off,, but she is too happy... and now says what if we are back together.. it doesn't matter we are through.. only reason to believe that the EA/PA has resumed.. maybe I'm wrong.. but she is pleading for me to believe her..
If all this is fog.. I would sure hate to see her if she was in a bright sunny day.. it would be like armageddon around here..I dont see the hope.. but I trust you guys to tell me she is there for me somewhere..the biggest problem I have ids that theb OM is always around.. and the onlt way to find peace if she every comes back is to move to another province..but the province we would go to .. he was already there and moved back.. he could go there again to be near Mrs.MM..
but that is way in the future if any..thanks for the input.. keep it coming.
3ISACROWD
excuse my ignorance.. JMVHO?? what does that mean??
now...
maybe a seperation is in order and will soon happen.. the only porblem now is who goes...I am beginning to think that the best is for me to go and let her have the house.. if she is destined to coem back to me.. whether I am in the house or she is.. it wont matter.. besides financially..i would be better off to take a settlement from her and leave.. that way.. I am off on a clean slate and she has the burdens of the extar costs to live with.. will make her think nonetheless.. howver if she bring OM into the house.. maybe he will help out...You are absolutley right the fog talk is ruthless.. she has no idea what she is saying..if its real..I have been to stupid for a lo\ng time...lsy nigt she admitted having feeings for him for a few years and had never admitted it to herslf.. now .. thats why I think this is so real and not fog.. since she has had a long time to thingk about her feelkings for me.
I am helping out with the girls more and more.. I actaully do a fair amount that she won't admit to.. like tonight she left to go to a friend babu shower.. I fed the girls, gave them their bath, cleaned the house, did a load of laundry, did the dishes, read them stories and put them to bed..
Yes your are right about blocking the shots,,, like Maryjanes said.. shut up walk away when you feel like your going to lose it..
One of the things that is helping me is that I am back running pretty well full time...ran a lunch time with one of my team mates,,a nd after work with another team mate, both are women and gave me some good advise as well..I guess what I am trying to say is that the running is helping me be both a stonger and better MM.. because I am getting my self esteem back an building my confidence .. that according to the women here... is something they like in man.. So .. I get more confident,, if Mrs.MM does not come out of the fog and back into my arms,,then.. ole MM will be a better catch for some lucky lady..
Continuing to work on making a better MM.. thanks to all.. your input means the world to me..
MORTARMAN
I only hope and wish that some day down the road I will be able to send you a message filling you in with the same wonderful news...Its been a hard battle so far.. If I were to move out to you think that would ruin all chances of MrsMM coming back to me.. or should I let her go... please understand that if I stay.. it could certaiinly ruin me financially..and then I would have nothing..she will have the girls as well with her If I am not succesful in getting the temp custody..

"and the onlt way to find peace if she every comes back is to move to another province..but the province we would go to .. he was already there and moved back.. he could go there again to be near Mrs.MM.."

What if you moved to Tuktoyaktuk? Make yourself a nice ice cave by hollowing out a pingo! Would he follow you there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

JMVHO= JUST MY VERY HUMBLE OPOIN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I really feel for you , I told you I know the He!! your going through and so does most here .

TALK to LAYWER , if you move out ,well look at it in all ways before you decide . I do agree you should stay thats not waht I am saying .

But if you move out talk to lawyer , can she have OM move in? will this be good for your girls emotions .? NO and I think if expressed to a laywer he will agree tell him it is a concern . See what legal action he could take to prevent it .
LISTEN to MORTERMAN evaluation would be in order .

I know this is a weird question , but do you have a basement ? if so convert it to apartment move down there , or a garge ?

Also easier said then done take a break from it .

No talk about anything just remove yourself , tell her I do not want to talk about it right now .

When you go in circles you get dizy , sit down , and stop spinning your are alowed.

Q
that had to be the best direct hiy hit a 2x4 you have ever made...It doesnt matter where I go...its too far down the road anyway...I amliving a dream here..lets work on ole MM first.. then lets see what happens.
Lst night I got a real nivce letter from the power company saying it was my final invoice with a wopping big charge..seems mrs.MM took it upon herself to switch things over to her name..when she saw this invoice she broke down and cried.. she even hugged me and said she was so sorry.. "i didnt paln it that way".. none the less seems what she did was illegal.. and whoever did that for her at the power comm.. will have his N%TS in a ringer... I then told her thatshe is asking me to trust her.. and i say for what... she says .. yu are justified..
now this moring I call her office and discover she is on the phone with the OM.. probably discussing a new plan to get MM out of the house.
but abck to her feelings.. she says that she does not want me to touch her but yet she came over and hugged me to say she was sorry.. maybe an emotional relapse.. where she is full of guilt..

3ISACROWD
I have to talk to me lawyer before and shejsut left for the Cayman Islands for two weeks.. will talk to her when she gets back.. after the stint mrs MM pulled... I am more likely to stick to my guns and stay.. even try to get a temp custody..
as far as living in the basement.. not finished.. and my W says that is not an option..guess she jsut wants to have the OM over anytime and be as loud as she wants..
by the way thanks for the expalnation on JMVHO
appreciate it!!
ON the thing about OM moving in.. she says that tshe will expalin to the girls the moomy loves T very much and is very special to her.. BLA BLA BLA
they are kids they are going to be confused..she has no idea what she is heading our girls for...
that is why I am trying to hold all this together..but hey.. why be with someone who does not love you!!its painful.. maybe let her be happy and learn by her mistakes..idf it actually turns out to be one and not one of the lucky 5%...
just a note my wife checks things out fully... she has SH&T luck.. if she wants to she will make it work!!
this is another weekend...maybe this can turn into a great one...she has some real explaining to do maybe she will spend the weekend sucking up!! Not likely.. but hey I am allowed to dream!!!

marathonman:

Put your foot down! Absolutely NO Rat [censored] OMs in YOUR HOUSE!! If your lawyer isn't back in time to help you with this, particularly keeping the OM away from your kids, SEE ANOTHER LAWYER NOW!

That's B.S.!!! and it will hurt your kids more than you can imagine!

Please take care,
-Qfwfq
P.S. Oh, and the hug was a very good thing! Just don't get your hopes up. It is a good sign for the future, though.

[ April 11, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]

Q..
I think the hug was a guilt thing.. she really screwed up...but now she is back to her same ole self..I questioned her this morning about having lunch with the Om and she said o she wasnt...then she calls him as soon as she gets to work and makes a joke about it "I didnt know we were suppose to have lunch today.. my husband seems to think we were." If I chose to move out it wont be too soon.. not until my lawyer gets back..but I really hope she is not that stupid to brng him in that soon.. she says that nothing is happening rght now and that what they had is over.. Until the F&*ker is gone and out of the way I will nevetr trust her..I continue to tell her that if she brings the OM in her house.. it will; screw up the girls...she thinks she can expalin tjhat they love each other.. blah blah..
I was suprized that she did hug me.. if only for a minute...does that show feeling or just sorry for doing something that screwed up?? she's not hugging me now.. back to the same ol mrs MM who wants out...trying to be good but her latest stunt has made me wonder what else she is up to..

Marathonman:

She hugged you because she loves you. ...well, maybe just 0.0002% of her love belongs to you right now, but it's there!

Again, don't try to analyze it. It won't make any sense any time soon anyway.

Again, if you possibly can, just stop talking about the OM. Since you now know you can't influence her thinking about him, there's no point in doing this anyway. So, instead, treat him as though he doesn't exist (his integrity doesn't anyway).

My W once complained, like in December, that I kept asking about how RM was "doing", and the only way that she could find out was to contact him. But then, I'd get angry because she talked to him. Well, we both know that was an excuse or justification for her contact continuing, but the upshot of all this is that I realized that the FIRST thing I needed to do if I wanted her to drop the contact was to stop giving him any "power" or "substance" by inadvertently acknowledging that they had any kind of relationship, that he even exists. Initially, I was afraid that if I just dropped the subject, she wouldn't tell me when she DID have contact. That's a risk I had to take. I remembered back to the period of time between July and November, when I stopped talking about him, or about our M COMPLETELY. I would only respond if she asked me a direct question, and she didn't want to. Or so she thought. In the end, it was her asking ME in November how we were doing that brought it all back. And it wouldn't have been a big deal if I hadn't let it become one by being argumentative. After that, she said "happy birthday" to him in December, heard his W was having an A, heard that he got an apartment, and got invited to come live with him. ...this was over a YEAR since they last saw each other! We had a couple more arguments about him after that, into January, but after that I stopped bringing him up. (I just realized that this isn't correct: We argued about him a little on my Birtday last month, but it wasn't nearly as LBing by then and I don't think I brought him up, but I might have).

She's brought him up the few times we've talked about him at all since then. And like I said, last time was a couple of weeks ago. She said she had to call him about some work that he was late sending back (which is his M.O.!!!). I didn't say anything, and didn't feel much either (except perhaps some sense of resolve if it doesn't stop eventually), but she must have interpreted my expression as one of hurt, and gave me one of the tightest hugs I've gotten from her in years. I just said "I'm just a little scared, that's all." I wish I had been more open with my emotions at the moment, because I felt a lot more than that, but I don't know if I could have expressed them adequately. Time goes on, and we continue to grow. I'm getting more self-secure all the time, and that's the only thing I really can do. We're getting along better all the time too, but I don't have any fundamental assurances that RM will be gone for good yet.

It just takes time. And perseverence,
-Qfwfq

[ April 11, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]

Thanks Q
I sure hope there is a little love there.. because I do love her and dont want to see our family break up. I dont think that she is being completely honest with me..Its so hard not to bring up the OM.. she is now saying that I am just very jealous.. I will try again not to say anything about him or the marriage.. its going to take time for her to iron out the mess with the power company..she knows that I am pissed..Try not to LB today at all...
the funny thing about the emotions is that I am expressing them too much..I have however stopped wimpering to her.. just tell her that I love her more than anything..
Its time to take back the power..Onthe moving out thing .. if I do move out, chances of us reconciling would be less than if she did.. this is way too confusing...
Thanks for the insight not saying anything may give her a chance to sit back and take a look at it all...

Why is it that I just cant shut up...I seem to laways wany the last word..last night she went out with one of her GF.... while she was getting dressed and putting makeup on.. I asked her if there would ever be an us again and she says "not likely"... she then said that I was also making things bad for myself for thinking there was more going on then actually happened. If I am blaming her for thhings she has not done.. what an idiot I have been... but at the same time.. what am I to believe after some of the stunts. What pisses me off is that she wil talk to the OM and say .. Guess what...MM thinks that we have done XYZ... maybe we should to shut him up.. or "I didn't know we were suppose to have lunch today".. I know I am rambling here but I guess whatI am trying to say is that.. I am failing badly at everything. I am LBing all the time..and just have ro shut up more..I want to show her that I am lovable and can make a wonderful H..but I am getting nowhere..How can I tell she really is in the fog...today is a new day...I have to put forth a better effort I know, but I just get so frustrated when I dont see anything in return.
Q
I know I have to stop thinking about the OM.. but where whe works with him or talks to him every day...I feel that if there was any future..he will always be there to complicate things for MM..
yesterday.. I also said something stupid to my WW.. that I regret..I asked her.." have you ever wanted something so bad and could not have it?" .. very stupid.. raeson I asked was that I wanted her back in my life.. her feelings was yeah.. I want OM so bad and I cant have him..
got that 2x4 handy again??
enoug rambling for now.. most likely what I just wrote does not make sense but I am just venting..
I

"the funny thing about the emotions is that I am expressing them too much..I have however stopped wimpering to her.. just tell her that I love her more than anything.."

MM- You know exactly what you need to do in the short term, in addition to taking care of yourself. I'd be willing to bet you'd atleast double your chances of R if you could stop trying so hard to please her and pull back a little. Believe me, I know it's difficult (I had a rough time "pulling back") but you can do it! Be like the other MM and take back your life! Good luck....

Litchfield
Thanks.. I have it in my heart that there is hope.. she on the other hand is trying to push the seperation..although she sais it was over at New Years.. she is still here..maybe part of my problem is that I am trying to much.. you are right in MM just backing off..the main reason for all this will be to make ne a better person though.. I appreciate your words of encouragement on doubling the chance of R.. but I still have the OM to deal with.. although it is supposeably over..they are still work together and I know there must be sexual tension between them..
But gert the 2x4 out and start swinging..eceveryone is saying to forget about him..and worry about fixing me...again thanks..
now today .. my goal.. shut up, no LBm, be nice as possible..
I

Marathonman:

Shut up, already!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, you've answered your own questions. You need to stop sounding like the insecure, snivelling mm that you do right now to your W, and start showing her the self-secure, strong, thoughtful and considerate mm that you really are (you REALLY ARE, too).

"I know I have to stop thinking about the OM.. but where whe works with him or talks to him every day...I feel that if there was any future..he will always be there to complicate things for MM.."

Probably not, mm. If your M starts to recover, she'll become as disenchanted with him as you are. Believe it. That will mean one of them will have to change jobs or locations, or they'll both have to devise a means of not seeing each other if they have to work for the same company. This is down the road a ways, though. Stop worrying about it now.

"yesterday.. I also said
something stupid to my WW.. that I regret..I asked her.." have you ever wanted something so bad and could not have it?" .. very stupid.. raeson I asked was that I wanted her back in my life.. her feelings was yeah.. I want OM so bad and I cant have him..
got that 2x4 handy again??"

Yes, I do. But it's not your run-of-the-mill knotty pine 2x4 from Home Despot. I have an EBONY 2x4! (ebony doesn't float, it's too dense! And so it's more useful in these situations)

Again, don't fret. I don't know what I said, but just a few minutes before I packed my bag and left for a week last July, my W responded with "I wish I could clone myself and be in two places at once". When I asked why, she said "Isn't it obvious?" She wanted to be with both me and Rat Meat. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. But the camel was my construction entirely. I could have just as easily stayed, shut up, or talked about how that hurt to hear (if she was receptive to talking about it. She wasn't at the time). And I should have, because I wasn't ready for anything like "Plan B", though I thought I was.

Had to go to the emergency care a week later for anti-Ds. Why? Because she called me on the phone that day and I broke down a few hours later.

Take it easy, mm. YOu'll make it.
-Qfwfq

Q
Good thing we dont have ebony in my neck of the woods..although I did feel the crack..Just had another conversation with her about the future..
says that she has to get away from me...does not love me..period.. does not want any future what so ever.. aside from raising the girls in seperate houses.. with me in an apartment..
I guess what I'm trying to say is that.. by becoming the "self secure, strong, thoughtful and considerate MM in really am"..it will not change her feelings for me..It wont make her love me..that I know...it is in her eyes...although you have the experience behind youand believe there is a chance. Q she is ready to move on..when do I decide to let it go and start looking for a new life without Mrs.MM.. if we are seperated..chances of R will be slim.. by the way I like the comment on raw meat...it proves the point..tis may sound stupid so get the ebony out..
How do I show her that I am strong, thoughtfulstrong and considerate?? by not LBing? coaching required...
I

mm:

Got your helmet on?

"Just had another conversation with her about the future.."

Screw the future, mm. You can't control it any more than you can control the past. You can only control YOU. NOW.

"says that she has to get away from me..."

She probably does. RIGHT NOW. Let her. It'll do both of you good.

"does not love me..period.. does not want any future what so ever.. aside from raising the girls in seperate houses.. with me in an apartment.."

yada yada yada. Don't fret over this stuff. Let her move out. When she does, you won't have these convos and you will be able to focus on what you need to do.

"I guess what I'm trying to say is that.. by becoming the "self secure, strong, thoughtful and considerate MM in really am"..it will not change her feelings for me.."

Yes it will.

"It wont make her love me..that I know...it is in her eyes..."

It won't MAKE her do anything. It will give her something to think about. And her thinking will make her do things.

"although you have the experience behind youand believe there is a chance."

But even my sitch isn't completely resolved yet. Might not be for a long time, either.

"Q she is ready to move on..when do I decide to let it go and start looking for a new life without Mrs.MM.."

Right now! Because your life together was based on assumptions about your R that were flawed. Mine was too. I'm still learning how to be in a committed relationship and still be an individual. My W has a very hard time even now with that. Yours may too. Too many people equate being M'd with being "owned" or subjugating their own goals and desires for their spouse's. That's not what it's about.

"if we are seperated..chances of R will be slim.."

Your R will be different, which is a GOOD thing. You want to take the pressure off your W. Let her find out "who she is" or whatever it is she's doing this for. Find out who you are, while she's gone. You will have the opportunity to talk about things that relate to the kids without having to remind each other of how you pi$$ each other off. Do a "remote plan A" during this time. Don't go to plan B yet. You're not ready, like I wasn't.

"by the way I like the comment on raw meat..."

Actually, it's "Rat Meat", my nickname for my W's OM.

"it proves the point..tis may sound stupid so get the ebony out..
How do I show her that I am strong, thoughtfulstrong and considerate?? by not LBing? coaching required..."

That's how you START. But there's a whole lot more to it. It involves building your self-confidence, so that you will be happy, not just "survive" no matter what she ultimately decides to do. By being self-secure, you will be more attractive as a man, to her or to someone else if your M doesn't work out.

-Qfwfq

Q
If a seperation is in order .. which will happen I am sure eventually.. problem is . neither of us have enough cash to break out on our own.. financailly though. it would be better for me to take a settlement from my portion of the equity and move into an apartment. would it make any difference who leaves.. she will still see me as a better person if she stays or goes..Have to focus on the now.. Ive told her that I cant change the past.. I'm sorry for hurting you..but I can only change the now..so in the same light.. dont worry about the future... let God take care of that ..RIGHT!!
really got to work on building my self confidence, becoming a stronger, more secure MM..
again focus on the now.. if we seperate..either I go or she goes..show her what a better person I have become...
I can only hope while we are seperated.. she doesnt bring OM into her life.. shes gaga over him... Hope that wont prevent her from forgetting about me quickly..
thanks
I

met with psychologist this morning to talk about me..I have to deal with anger issues.. probaably routed from chilhood..and building self confidence as well as seld esteem.. I had the problem resolved with the power company.. she says she tried this morning but would not help her... I wonder how hard she really tried.. non the less I have taken control again..This whole mess is really starting to get on my nerves...I am totally to blame for not trying to stop LBing all the time and showing her a better MM.. while she has no regrets about her affair my OM..still wants to end marriage and strt new life..I am getting ready to say F^&K it and pack my bags, take a settlement and start a new life..Although I love her more than anything.. I cant wait around and let her ruin me totally.. If I am going to be a better MM and the best D^&M MM possible..it will have to be out of her sight..because ne being around her is doing me no good... I dont want to give up.. but whats the use!!!!the fat lady is getting ready to sing and the towel is in the drier waiting for the ring to be empty..
MORTARMAN/Q... This is the time if you are near to haul me out of the ditch.. because I dont know what I'm going to do next!!

marathonman:

I want Mortarman to chime in here now, too, because he's a lot further along than I am, and his sitch is more like yours than mine was.

What to do now, though? Well, try to step back and look at this whole thing, what's going on now, from as objective a viewpoint as you possibly can. If you do, I think you'll realize that you "know" what you have to do - and that is all that you can do. Meaning, keep cutting back on the lovebusting. The other things, like what she does, how she feels, how she hurts you, you can't control right now. I still think that YOU should stay put, almost at all costs, but even if you do end up deciding that you moving out is the best thing to do, just make sure that the last conversation you have with your W as you or she heads out the door is POSITIVE, UPBEAT, and LOVING. Don't let her argue with you at all. You want to leave her with a positive memory of your last convo. Eventually, when the OM starts LBing because he's pi$$ed that HE has to take care of all her ENs, she'll start remembering your good qualities.

Okay?
-Qfwfq

Q
I just made a personal commitment.. that I have to stop talking about OM .. or should I say RM..
no wore words what so ever.. its doing me no good..I am out of time so absolutely no lBing... this has to happen.. I am going to stay put as long as I can.. and show her the best MM possible.. Its going to be hard... and that is why I jsut want to give up and not prolong the agony of her and I finally splitting.. I am just hanging on hoping for the Fog to lift.. but my grasp is lossening..I know you guys must be really pissed at me for not showing any progress.. but this is one hard road and one big pill to swallow..the psch says forget it and just try to fix my problems.. says Mrs.mm is not coming back except it!!..

Mary Janes... I forgot to ask her on her stance of cognitive therapy..will do next time..
Q
On OM not being able to meet her EN... I dont think that would be a problem since they are both GAGA for each other.. once they are together.. If it actually does happebn.. my WW will be in bliss and happy as a clam..no worries abour him getting pi**ed at her!!

[ April 14, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

mm:

"once they are together.. If it actually does happebn.. my WW will be in bliss and happy as a clam..no worries abour him getting pi**ed at her!!"

I hereby invoke the right to call bull$hit! OM is NOT the father of HER children, who won't be living with HER, or even if they are, won't be with her ALL THE TIME. And so, everytime you have to exchange kids or visit with them, she'll be reminded of YOU. It's during those times that you will have the opportunity to be the best you can be. But do this for YOU and your kids. Don't put her at the top of your priority list. If you take care of the other things first, the "W thang" will fall into place.

-Qfwfq

Felt the ebony 2x4.. again.. forget about the OM and just work on MM...starting to look like a very stupid MM here..cant seem to get with it all..again I have committed to not mentioning him at all..and stop LBing more and more..I have to also relax and build on that confidence..its time MM show his true self..a very confident and self assure guy.. show Mrs. MM that I can live without her just fine.. maybe ignore her a little.. dont say I love you..let her come around..in other words...give her what she wants..

Marathonman!
Man, you have GOT to get it together. Your wife fell for you once before and she will fall again. I don't know, women are something else. My situation is changing already. My wife, just like yours, was on her way out! She was supposed to be out of the house this week! I just could not take it anymore. I took a deep breath, realized that I have SO much going for me, I got a haircut, some new clothes (but I was still hurting inside to tell you the truth, but I played the role and told MYSELF that she was gone), then I told her, "I love you more than you will ever know, but what you are doing is literally killing me. I wish that you would realize that the best thing is for us to be together and that the OM is using you for a thrill, but you do not. That being the case, if you cannot stop talking to him and being so mean and nasty to me I ask that you leave and leave quickly. I need to move on." I left it at that. A woman from our church I think talked some sense in her and said that leaving your husband and children is a bold move and that she really needs to think and pray about it. On my end, I didn't talk about it anymore. I laughed with the kids, tried to be happy as I could be. Started working out again. She saw a change in me and then I started seeing a change in her. She is hugging me now before she leaves for work and a friend of hers told me that she told her she thinks we are going to work out. She is still at home and this morning she made ME breakfast. What?!?! Yesterday and today she walked around me naked. :-o Before she would go out of her WAY to make sure I didn't see some skin. Not the last two days.
Man, just be you when you were you before you met her. You are a man that she fell in love with...and decided to have three of your children!! She needs to see you how you were back then. The stud. The cool calm fine man she fell in love with. To be honest I do not even know if she is still talking to the OM. Well,I KNOW she is, but what has changed is, I don't care. I have the upper hand. She sees me everyday and she sees how our children LOVE me. The OM is nothing. Make her see that. Hang in there, Brother.

MM-

I have read through your entire thread and I'm going to tell you as a former WS that you need to stop being so insecure! Your attitude has been self defeatest and if you want this to work...YOU have to change your perspective about YOURSELF. You are probably the first person that I have given the 2x4 to on the first post. For that I am sorry. I just want for you to succeed and to do that you need a "new" way of seeing things.

Repeatedly you give up before you have even started to fight. What kind of attitude is that? Why do YOU feel so undeserving? She is the one that betrayed you...Everyone here gives you advice from their own situations....I was a WS-I'm telling you that her A WILL end. Once you believe that with all of your heart, then you can let go of your fear...This is the step that needs to happen in order for you to move forward...

I'm sorry that I was harsh, but I really want to help you get through this...

Your W's A will end!

mm:

You've said a couple of times now that your counselor has advised you to give up on your M, that "she's gone, accept it."

Let me quote from David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" (though any publication or therapist worth their weight in beans will say essentially the same thing:

"No therapist can tell you when it's time to leave your marriage. Therapy is not a safe route to paradise. Understanding this provides a way to select a therapist: ask what the therapist does when he or she knows a couple should divorce. If the therapist offers ANY plan of action - implicitly presupposing to know when a couple SHOULD divorce - quickly find another terapist. Therapists do not know when someone should leave a marriage."

End of discussion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

MM,

Listen to Kily!! She knows. She has been on the otherside. All of the statistics, all of the WSs here will tell you...the OM does not have a chance. You have a better chance at her coming home tonight and making love to you then he does with getting your wife permanently. it just is not going to happen.

Now, will the affair continue for awhile? Probably. Will they both stupidly pursue it and try to make it work? Probably.

Remember the first Gulf War? it was the Iraqis that attacked first. They drove into a small town in Saudi Arabia. It was a clear victory for them i nthose first few days.

What was the end result MM? Did our generals start panicking, just because they had taken a small town just over the border? Did they say "Oh no, it's all over. They are serious. We lost the first battle. We might as well go home." Did they? Of course not. Everyone, including the Iraqis, knew that this war could not be won by them. The odds were incredibly against them. But you know what? The Iraqis had better odds at stopping us than the OM has with getting your wife.

This is a "war," MM. Stop getting caught up in the battles. You will lose some. The "fog" of war will at times make things appear differently than they really are. Stay with your plan. Have confidence with knowing that the odds are in YOUR favor, not the OMs...no matter what your WW is saying right now. Dont listen to the naysayers. If your therapist says give up...fire him! Get another "general" to work for you. One that believes in the plan.

I cannot say it enough. And everyone here is right on with their advice. Your situation is very similar to mine. Or what used to be mine. Listen to Kily. She is your wife...after th fog lifts. She KNOWS what your wife is doing, what she is feeling. She knows what will work and what wont work.

MM, stop worrying about the day-to-day. Stop letting the fog influence you. Internally, laugh at your WW when she tells you these crazy things. It is as if she is walking in and saying "I am very serious...I am going outside and jumping as hard as I can so I can land on the moon." Would you take that seriously? Of course not. Would she go out and try? Probably...remember, she was serious. But serious does not make it so. She may be sincere, but she is sincerely wrong. The odds are not in her favor to land on Tranquility Base...and they are not in her favor to end up with the OM...or even be divorced from you.

Trust the plan. Trust yourself.

In His arms.

SOLON
I am glad that things seem to be turning for you and your wife.. but I think it will be a while before my wife does the same..the difference is that if she moves out she will take the girls..I will try to stop her but there will be a battle.
My committment then is to stop talking about the OM completely..forget him.. she says that it is obver.. he called it off... as you I have to realize that I have a lot going for me and will be fine either way.. I tell her constantly that I love her.. but it seems to be getting on her nerves... so on that I will back off... as for hugs.. or her letting me see her naked.. well that will also be a while..just back off and be calm..

KILY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
thats the first happy face I have given here...so you are special..
I felt the 2x4 .. maybe one of Q's ebony ones..
I am seeing a Psych as you know and hope to work on the self esteem/confidence bit..not sure why I feel so undeserving..maybe comes from a lot of s&^t from my past vand her saying I dont love you anymore... really pains..maybe you even said it to your H...My freinds and family tell me to give upand that she is'nt coming back gosh even Mrs.MM says.. let it go.. it will evenbe harder when we finally seperate.. But I truly beleive that there is hope..I feel it in my heart..again the A is over as far as Mrs. MM says.. I asked her how she feels that he called it off.. and she says a lttle angry...she still wil be working closely with him.. its hard to let go of everything ,, but for my sanity I have to.. m,aybe letting go will ease everything a great deal and let me start building a new R with her..No probs about the words.. they were totally justifiable and well deserved.. any tips to build self esteem and confidence..I know I can do this .. if Mrs.MM doesnt come back.. I'l still love her but I will be better for someone else.. I AM NOT GIVING UP!!! on this woman...she is a good person at heart.. just a sH^t load of hurt...
KILY... thanks again for your honesty sure appreciate you checking in on me..

Q
And now my friend with the ebony 2x4..
This has been my problem all along.. who in the H#ll do they think they are..some of them that is...the last one when we were first going to MC.. was a dead loss and that is why I was not sold..
The angle I have with the Psych is not to get back with mrs MM but to make me a better person..
In my eyes there is no fat lady in sight.. and if she is anywhere near, I dont hear her singing..and if she does show up I'm sure she wont be able to sing for beans...
I will say when to throw in the towel.. I am not giving up.. time to stop all this S=%T I am throwing around and get with it... my next post will be so upbeat.. I promise you..
Thanks to you all Q.. thanks for the shot and KILY..thanks for taking your time to drop by it really means alot to me...
Cheers
I

MM - just wanted to drop in I have posted a couple of times to you and want to let you know , I am in a $HIT situation , BUT I am very determined to see it through .

I have told you that I had a hard time sticking to PLAN A and I mean hard . MY H can push my buttons even in nice was to get me to LB .

Self-estem NONE I was sot down in every direction .

What I am saying is look yourself in the mirror and pick your self up .
YOU can be strong , you can dodge bullits, and you can find the you ,YOU want to be , THE YOU that she will see .

DO NOT TALK THE TALK - WALK THE WALK !!!!!!!

I mean it , be determined and strong for you and your girls know what you want andf GO FOR IT , let nothing she says NOTHING affect you .

SHE says I don't love you , say I love you .
She says give it up its over , say give up on the love of my life no not today I love you babe .

I may get hit here but one day at a time , PLAY A game in your head if you have to .PRETEND she is a roommate with bad attitude and your trying to get to know her for the first time . Avoid when you don't want to be bothered and try little things that won't hurt so bad if she says no .

If you 2 are home and doing nothing get out the cards , want to play rummy ? she says no say ok just was board I 'll play solitare its ok .

GET what I am saying go for a run and think of some things that can be done together small things weird and fun things that would catch her off gaurd . Also think of things to do for you .

Things that when she is around that she sees you interested in that you are not consumed with HER .

I am rambling having a bit of energy , to much coffee today. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Check ya later !

MORTARMAN
Sorry I missed your post...Mrs. MM said today again today that the OM called it off...I asked her how she felt about that and said not good...left a little in her ear about what happens if he says he wants to try something in a few months.. said she will deal with it then.. what a niave woman.. he does it once he'll do it again... who was it here that said she will find that "her handsome prince is just a pathetic frog"?
anyhow..with Kilys advise and I really hope the advise from kily as a former WW.. keeps coming!!!!! her advise of letting go of the fear of the OM.. Mary janes advise of shutting up .. all the amazing advise from both you and Q continually telling me to relax and focus on being a better MM...it finally is setting in.. tonight No LBs as of yet .. we are actually talking and laughing with each other..I know at this time she stillwants out .. but I am going to show her a better MM..
I will be working on that confidence thing.. firstly for me...she has not left so there is still time..maybe until the end of may now to show her what she could be missing.. Little by little I will have her falling back in love with me..and to show her that I am the best man for her to be with and spend the restof her life with.
letting go is like having a huge weight taken off my shoulders.. I just hope for now things dont start up again with her and OM..
you are always there at the right time.. thanks for being a friend...
I will trust in myself to do a good plan A and build a better MM and trust that God will bring us back together.. he wont let me down..
Once again Thanks..
I

3isacrowd
I have to go to put the girls to bed so I am going to be quick..
Both you and I have to work on our self esteem..
looking in that mirror and finding that amzing person in us will get us on our way.. the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.. almost like running that marathon...
I really like the tips on responding to her..with the I love you... finding things to do together.. looks like a lot of solitaire for me.. I asked her on the weekend tosit and watch a movie.. wasnt even interested in that..
will try those little things and see where it gets me.. its worth a shot.. and at the same time treat her like a roomamte..
Thanks for checking in on me.. please keep the advise coming..I sincerely appreeciate it!!
cheers!!
I

MM-

I'm honored that you WANT my input. I'm always willing to throw my $1 in....

Just to give you some perspective...

If the shoe was on the oppostie foot and you were the ine that left...would you be interested in someone that was clinging to you like a child? (no)

Would you be attracted to someone that seemed in control, happy, non-demanding, and mysterious?

That is WHERE plan-a, faith, and trust will get you to...

Just believe in your goal, set your mind to it, make a plan, set up some sort of measure, and we will help you get there.

How are things today?

KILY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Thanks for dropping by.. last nigt I lived up to my committment of forgetinga bout and dropping the OM altogether..its seems as if a huge burden is lifted.. I can no start fixing me.. I was so preoccupied and wasted a S%%T load of time when I could have been focusing on making a better MM..
Had a very good run today at lunch time and actually had one of my customers ( a woman) who knows my story ,; tell me that I was looking good and the smile was back on my face..
I am also committed to stop wimpering around her and making me better..showing her a happy man that is in control and Mysterious??? please tips on that..
On a down note she did say this morning again it is over and she wants the marriage to end..she does not want to go on..In your eyes.. how do I proceed??? I am not giving up.. I do love her...
I will work hard on the faith and trust that things will work out... I sincerly want to thank you for your perspectie.. having you here is giving me a side and the ray of hope I need..
keep the suggestions coming..
once again thanks..and to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On a down note she did say this morning again it is over and she wants the marriage to end..she does not want to go on..In your eyes.. how do I proceed??? <hr /></blockquote>You think to yourself, "Ah ha! It's the alien again! Weird how that keeps happening." Do you say that? Well, no. You say something like, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm committed to our relationship."

And then you go for your run, you get a cup of coffee, you plant flowers, or you do some work that you need to do, and you go on with your day.

J of HJK , hit on the thing BS need a ONE LINER manual .

Good morning , I want out of marriage
Good morning , I want to be commited to our M

I don't want to be with you
I love you

This M is over get over it
Yes , the old M is over and lets leave it in the past and start a new

Get it negitive = positive
You need to not understand her cause , we have not yet advanced to understand aliens science is still studing them LOL

You will be fine continue to here BLA BLA BLA from her if you here anything else go for a RUN there trying to Abduct you onto there ship .

CHEER UP everyday gets better , you will get stronger and keep in mind she STILL has not left .

SHE talks and talks but what she is cripple can't walk .

I am not saying she won't but my odds are on the fact she wants to make you miserable to be the one to leave . Don't engage in the game .
GET any other hobbies yet (besides running)
Something to do when your stuck at home with her besides solitar LOL
MODELS , I don't know paper air planes LOL

BE STRONG .LAUGH alittle at least once a day ok

J &3ISACROWD

The one liners are great and I have actually been using them..She has left with the girls to spend the weekend with her parents..so I cant practise..She must be from some very distant planet .. since when I tell het that I cant change the past.. I can only give you a better future.. all she says is that she has no love for me.. empty .. ziltch.. da nada..how do I come back to that.. come h*ll or high water she says we will be seperated by the end of May now..buts this has been going on for a few months.. big money probs are keeping us together..She has though long and hard and is set thatv there is no futuer.. I am trying to be the best MM .. what is there left to say.. that she has not already heard?
she most definitely is trying to make things miserable and I am actually considering leaving.. it would be better off and with the settlement from the house equity I'll be able to afford child supprt if it comes to that.. otherwise I stay in the house and I will be bankrupt abnd lose the house.. either way she has got me by the B*LLS. This is just to frustarting/.. maybe the weekend will give her a chance to think.. but I am afriad it will come to pass that .. when she comes home on monday that..she'll be more set in her ways..

[ April 17, 2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On a down note she did say this morning again it is over and she wants the marriage to end..she does not want to go on..In your eyes.. how do I proceed??? <hr /></blockquote>Just think to yourself:
W- That marriage is already over...when will the new one start?

Then smile and say:
Godd morning, would you like eggs with that?

KILY
What are you trying to tell me here.. she does not want a new one to start.. she does not want to give me the chance ton show her.. that I can treat her like gold..Am I suppose to be ignoring her and just being the best MM I possibly can??
I am preety numb when it comes to understanding women..what do I do with Mrs. MM who says there is no love left .. no chances.. no hope.???

MM-

I was simply thinking that the marriage that made her unhappy is no longer there. You are now aware and willing to do things to change your part in what contributed to the problems.

Once someone has seen their issues, they will no longer approach the problem with the same attitudes. Basically it wasn't working with that method, what can I do differently to make it work.

I was just alluding to that fact and trying to present to you that in your mind the "new" marriage will be the one that you both openly committ to building together.

Hope this clarified things a little.

mm:

Do what 3 and kily are suggesting, but don't feel like you have to say ANYTHING to do it.

It's time for actions. When she says hurtful things to you, say nothing back. She's trying to bait you into a "revisionist historian" argument. Don't let her.

Make that breakfast, plant those flowers, raise the ceiling 3 inches (I ripped that off Tim Allen). Whatever it takes to keep your mind on positive things, and show her what a positive, loving guy you can be.

-Qfwfq

KILY/Q
basically what is being said here is actions speak louder than words.. show her a better MM.. when she comes home next week..althogh it looks like an official seperation will happen by the end of May..I will try my best.
Kily.. try as I might.. she is still headed and on her way down the one way street and is not looking back..whenb she does see me .. she will see a diffrent MM and hopefully open her eyes.. ut as a WW.. when do I do I give up the ghost.. when do I say okay there is no way this is going to work? I dont want to chase something that is impossible..

MM-

Let me give you the WP perspective on things....

She is running away from her problems. She is running to excitement and glamor like a kid runs to the presents on Christmas morning. The OM doesn't have to work at an R because she is accepting EVERYTHING without question. This is for a variety of reasons, but mainly she is hooked on the "high" feelings that the A produce. This is from the chemical infatuation.

At SOME point, the high goes away! Usually between 6 and 8 months after the start of the R. Once this happens, the WS starts to see things differently. The OM can't fil her EN's because HE doesn't know what they are. Unless he is ONE heck of a guy, and were talking about a sleazeball that messes around with married women here, she will start to MISS the life she had with you.

Now, you asked me about being mysterious...well, imagine that your wife is starting to have doubts and she looks your way...what will she be seeing?

She will expect to see the person that she left exactly as she left him....needing her, willing to accept anything. What she will find instead is someone she doesn't know. YOU will be completely confident, self-reliant, non-demanding, and maybe even a little COLD towards her.....she will start to wonder why, and where the changes came from, and if there might be someone else that caught YOUR eye.....thus the mystery.

Get the idea?

KILY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Thanks to You/ Q/ Mortarman/3isacrowd
and especially you as a WS.. here is a cyber hug..
This "Rat meat".. if I can so humbly use the word.. is just using her. she is all gaga over this guy.. they sauy they are each others best friend andhas been for a few years.. she may open her eyes done down the road.. and when she does it will be a better MM that has moved on... I have to work on the self esteem and confidence though..thanks fpr the advise... keep it coming.. I will have the weekend to do some soul searching.. I do believe I will end up moving out into my own place.. and start a new life.. whey disrupt the girls..they would be happier with their mother... why deny them that.. Its time for me to get on with life and become stronger.. and if the OM decides that he wants to start something with Mrs.MM again .. maybe she will open her eyes and think twice.. again he called it off... so she says and wants to stay with his kids..Mrs. MM got dumped.. unless this is one big lie that have made up .. she would be very foolish to get suckered in again..but as you say the emotions are there for her..

MM-

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I do believe I will end up moving out into my own place.. and start a new life.. whey disrupt the girls..they would be happier with their mother... why deny them that <hr /></blockquote>Let me get out that 2x4!!! Get ready because here it comes!!!

Your children have already been hurt by their mom's betrayal.....Do NOT leave them!!! It will DESTROY them. Trust me, I grew up longing for my dad, my self esteem and self image were blown to he!! because there wasn't a positive male role model in my life......now at least I have JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Stop giving up! The first thing you need to do is FIGURE out what YOU want! You are on a fence too. Get off of it and let's get a plan together here.

DO NOT MOVE, and DO NOT leave those innocent kids.

KILY
okay I'm off the fence... I have told her that I am not leaving the house,,I am not giving up on my family annd my girls...therefore the past three weeks she has been looking for an apartment.. and her lawyer says not to worry the girls will be going with her..even my lawyer has told me that no matter how great a father I am the courts will usually give custody to the mother..I keep on telling her that what she is doing will destroy the girls.. but she says they wil be just fine.. out of a house with no stress,,,a mother that is happy.. with or without.. rat meat.. sorry Q.. had to use it..Kily ist just makes me so sad to see what she is doing and will not open her eyes to listen.. major fog eh!.. the EH! is a Canadian thing!!
so what next?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

mm:

Work on the visitation if there truly is no way to prevent your W from taking the kids with her. Work with your lawyer. See if you can insure that OM can't visit while the kids are with her.

My bet is that life with her will not be all peaches and cream, but a lot of bitter pits. On the plus side, such as it is, you will have the opportunity to be upbeat whenever you're around the kids, and especially around your W.

Hang in there,
-Qfwfq

Q
she is not gone yet.. and she will most likely be here until the end of may and that may even push ahead.. .if the OM decides that he wants to come back to her after calling it quits, then either she is very gulible or very stupid..this RAT MEAT as you say is pathetic. and using my wife.., if his wife knew what he did. she woulfd have his B#lls cut off...even though they have been best friends for some time.. she now says that things are a little awkward..I will deal with her leaving when it happens.. but before I will talk to my lawyer to see if it would matter if I leave and let the girls stay in the house with their mother.. I am sure that before anything happens .. visitation will be ironed out!! mean while..its still plan A.. no talk of OM and being the best MM possible to the girls and their mother...her eyes will eventually open.

[ April 17, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

MM,
What state are you in? Redhat has 2 daughters of which is the one with custody. He has shared custody but he is the primary custodian parent.

Check out if your getting your children into counseling and see if that can be used in your favor to help you keep custody of the children.

Indy is another father that has his 2 children and they are 4 & 8.

You have options. Identify them and use them wisely.

L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
.... even my lawyer has told me that no matter how great a father I am the courts will usually give custody to the mother ... <hr /></blockquote>Which state are you in ?. Even in CA I got them 50-50 and actually I could push for more in the begining but I made mistake to let it. How to do it ? ... This is redhat's way ... before D-day I work my butt off and I attend my kids practice but Sat+Sun+Holiday I worked fixing the apartment that we own, I work like a dog and active father too !. Right away I know what I have to do ... I drop fixing apartment, involve in every practice, join them to get groceries w/ 2 D, join every field trip and rearrange my schedule to fit my 2 D practice so that I could be at home before they are leaving home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . It has 2 edges, I maximized contact in my plan A, I make sure there is no such thing as "her schedule w/ 2 D". I focus on 2 D. By the time she filed ... 6 months later ... 1. Her A is full blown and she wants to be with OM at all time ... Do I hear abondenment ?. 2. I am the primary care giver by then since she didn't want to be around me. 3. When she filed the judge always give temporary order not to change anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

I am a bit lucky since I live in San Mateo County, the judge never want to rule on his/her own about the children. FCS (family court service) is always called for to determine the custody and act as mediator. The judge will take their recomendation very highly. All I have to say is "to have it the way it is" for the stabilities of my 2 D. I got 70-30, I could push for more actually and put more provision but I was in between plan A/B ... the bigest mistake, I should go for the full custody and give her visitation right only, I have my chance - she disappear for 13 days, 1 day short for me legally filing for abandonment. The FCS actually has mercy on her. Also second mistake I agree to 50-50 for the summer since I know I would have a bit problem, this become permanent custody.

You see MM, everyone tell me about the same thing ... even my WW told me that "In the animal kingdom, the offsprings stay with their mother". Now, I am gladly replied "In the animal kingdom, the mother never abandon their youngs". You know what you want and go for it and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you loose at least you could say I did everything humanly possible and have no regret. MM, I don't know what runners say to each others on the starting line but I know it won't be pumping your confident <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . You WW are as arrogant as my ExW about CC, you lawyers & hers say the same thing as mine ... don't say a word, focus on D and find excuses to become primary care giver. She won't know what hit her later.

It was very hard but I bit my tounge and just imagine my girls around OM as dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ... I would let him compete with me. You can't control your WW but you can control yourself to save your D. What type of example she would give her in the current mind ?. You are more fit than her in the la la land !. You could let her get more custody when she is out of fog !.

-rh-

Orchid/redhat
I am in Canada.. but I would imagine that the laws are going to be much the same..I think what I'll do is sit down with my lawyer and discuss a CC plan..Having me as primary caregiver will upset the girls..since they will be away from their mom.My problem is with the OM ever moving in..as she says he called it off so he would not lolse contact with his kids...what an [censored].. and Mrs. MM cannot see it! tjhat may not be an issue..
I guess for know.. I am going to continue on with trying to win her back..I know Its a long process but I have nothing to lose..
KILY
Give me some more input.. advise..tips that may help me in my quest!!
Thanks guys!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
 ... Having me as primary caregiver will upset the girls..since they will be away from their mom.<hr /></blockquote>You don't say "primary giver", I would start join them to school, picking them up, and so on ... with your WW. It is up to her to let it go. If she does loose in the court down the road, she still could visit them or even get partial custody. You would be surprise what your D will say and react when you are around her and take care of them. They will enjoy it. I am not sexist but this is a reality, Keep in mind women don't need to do anything to get coustody but we need to work our butt off to just get 50% ... it is the sad. Q: does your D know about the A ?. How is your WW treat your D ?. I don't think she is WW #1 priority. If she ask just let her know you want to be with your D as much as you can. She will eventually drop out of sight, specially if A is still there. If she is not It is more time for you to show your plan A. Either way, you make sure that your D get taken care of.

If you are determmine to do it, I would also make sure that you get family therapist to mediate your CC and wrote recomendation to the court. Your D might even get evaluated for custody. CC mediation by FCS is an automatic court order in the county where I live.

-rh-

daughers dont know about the A or OM...you know he may be temporarily or out of picture...but I am not sure.. wife says he is...but I am not sure..
This RAT MEAT..is a pathetic [censored] who was using my wife.. none the less.. Daugters love their mom and I dont want to hurt her..all I want is equal access and not be denied..If a seperation does happen.. I wil push for best deal for all..
But that really is not what I am trying to do right now.. what I want is to save and start a new marriage..with Mrs.MM.. I hope Kily is around to lend a hand and help me bring my wife back... I have not heard much from Mortarman...hope all is well.. he has also been a great help..
Mrs.MM will be back on monday.. she will be seeing a very happy MM..trying to build the confidence thing..
Thansk for the insight.. I will be talking to my laywer next week..concerning the CC..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
... Daugters love their mom and I dont want to hurt her..all I want is equal access and not be denied..If a seperation does happen.. I wil push for best deal for all..<hr /></blockquote>Their mom unable to love them at this point, they will get hurt regardless. By you putting more emphasis on their life, they will enjoy it, gurantee. This is the kicker, you have to do what I describe to you just to get equal access !, I mean 50-50 custody ! not visitation right only. There is more pluses actually doing it since mrs. MM will see you as a new man comitted to the family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Let us know on Monday. -rh-

I dont think that is going to be a problem..50/50..I will let you know once I have a chance to talk to my lawyer..
Was out last night with a friend and met someone who grew up with OM.. My gut feeling is right.. OM is a major scumbag..cant get into details.. but my wife was succered in big time..if she only knew..what he is really like hed be a goner..but what she is in..is most definitely FOG... when it clears.. what an opener she is in for..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
I dont think that is going to be a problem..50/50..<hr /></blockquote>File for full custody, dig the OM's past, throw any dirt you can. Negotiate it from there.

-rh-

REDHAT
My wife says that he called it off.. if it is true, then it is a non issue.. but on the other hand I do not trust that it is completely over..
I really dont want to get into custody with my wife..until it is absolutely necessary...What I need to do is focus as hard as I can on saving and rebuilding a new marriage with my wife.. maybe it is hopeless to think that I can help her fall back in love with me.. but first I have to continue to show her a strong MM.. I do appreciate the insigt on custody and will ask for input from my lawyer on which way she feels I should proceed.. I will start with full..when the time comes... But now.. Making the best MM..
Mortarman... I really hope your not displeased with me...you have given me some ggod advise and I am trying my best to follow..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

marathonman,

Nope, I understood you well. However when it is the time, don't based your CC on rebuilding M or any hope of M. I just want to make sure that you separate the two issues ...

In MB, if you willing to do 4 gifts of love and she lets you do it for her, she would fall in-love again.

Hope next week will be a better week for you.

-rh-

Redhat
What do you mean by 4 gifts of love?
because if I'm missing something I could be doing.. I sure would like to know.. I do love Mrs MM very much and would do anything to help her fall in love with me again..I know I cannt make her but showing her a confident MM.. who is happy may swing her back...just a hope I have...she has to realize that this OM is rat meat that is taking advantage of her.. using her..and maybe her eyes will open some day to see what she lost in MM..
KILY MORTARMAN if you are around sure could use some input.. I am all alone and need some uplifting advise..

marathonman

Sorry for being busy plastering walls and planting bunny eggs thsi weekend. You're in good hands with redhat, though! One of the MB greats!

I think it's going to be your salvation that you are here and you care about your W the way you do. I just heard from a friend of mine at work yesterday afternoon, that he and his W of THIRTY YEARS have decided to DV! No A. She just got angrier and angrier over the past 10 years. They've been sleeping in separate rooms for 10 years, too. It's hard to imagine a M of 30 years just ending like that. Very sad.

Then the Laci Peterson story. Man, what's with that guy??? My W watched the news conferences last night together. It was an odd feeling.

Please have a good bunny day, okay???

-Qfwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
Redhat
What do you mean by 4 gifts of love?
because if I'm missing something I could be doing.. <hr /></blockquote>You are doing fine MM but a bit patience and breath slowly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . 4 gifts of love are the essence of MB. It is care (filling ENs), protect (avoid LB at all cost), time (undivided attention), and radical honesty. What you are doing right now is plan A where you negotiate through your actions. Review your plan A by trying to remember what WW said/complaint about you in M before D-day and through our the ordeal 'till now. Some of them are justifications; you could ignore them and some are real plan A material; you have to draw a plan of actions to show your WW that you are a change man or are capable of change. For example, by going to join child rearing should show something specially if she feel that you weren't carry part of your burden. Also you already know that you should avoid LB and R talk and let her bring it up. You don't need to roll out red carpet yet you shouldn't give any impression of "punishing" her either. Just think what MM needs to recover this M (ammends). Be honest to yourself and don't think about she would only if she could (humanly possible). This is crucial for the recovery of your M. Yes, you need to let her know what you beleive in and your M could be recover but the path to recovery is very hard and need work. If she is still in deep fog, don't argue or LB !. We made the condition/ situation for A to occur, we are ready to fix it ... but does she willing to work on M ?. Be honest and admit/appologize for the parts that you have done and tell her how you are going to fixing it or had fix it. However don't take the excuse, just say to her that you understand her but you don't agree with it and move to next conversation.

What do you have for your girls ?, I made basket bunny filled with candy & chocolate eggs. I gave them this morning before I left them at the rink since my exW will be there soon afterward.

Qfwfq Watching Scott Peterson gave me a creep since the beginning. He will be tried for death penalty here, more than 1 victim and the court count the fetus as a human being. I hope the police found the weight on the bottom on marina, it would be slam dunk case and save tax payer money on this b@st@rd.

-rh-

REDHAT
I have been alone in house since thursday.WW took 2D to visit her parents..so I missed spending easter with my girls..I am so sad!!
With any gifts of love I feel she will have her eyes closed to. I know that the road to recovedry is very very long, but this is very quickly becoming a pipe dream..Everyone is telling me not to give up.. but there is no sign of coming out of the fOG,, even though she says RATMEAT called it off.. I have a gut feeling she is LYING!!!
Just by her actions..very strange!! she is coming home tommorrow..driving approx 7 hours....will be home just intime for supper and then going to a belly dancing class...hardly.. guess Im just venting here..
I will try to continue on with plan A.. but my heart is so broken.. I really do not know what to do!!

mm:

CALL YOUR DAUGHTERS!!!

Call them and talk to them about what they're doing for Easter. THEN, talk to your MIL and even your W if she will let you. Be upbeat. Happy Easter stuff. No LBs. No R talk.

Okay? But it's important to EVERYONE that you call and talk to your kids.

For our 27th anniversary, just after Xmas, I took my W to a nice historic hotel. We had just had a couple of our worst arguments (yep, ol' Qfwfq was still LBing after 11 months since D-day!!) and I wasn't sure I even wanted to do anything. My W hadn't planned anything, and she didn't say much in response when I told her about the reservation, which had me down a little. But we ended up having a good time. I guess the point of all this is that whatever you do today will be remembered. If you do nothing, it will be held against you. If you call and make the effort, you might not see any results from doing it, but in months or years to come, it will matter... ...possibly even a LOT.

Please take care,
-Qfwfq

Q
I did call and speak to the girls..they were pretty upbeat about easter..pretty excited..I will be great to see them tommorrow afternoon. I do miss them so much..On the LB side with their Mother..had a LB session..not sure what she has told her parents, but they seem very cold to me at this time.. they use to be so lovable..almost like they have started to hate me...I told my W about the info that I learned about the OM..she seemed upset that I was speaking to people about her..none the less.. I wil not be speaking to her when she gets home.. minimal talk.. just yse and No answers...although very good and upbeat to the girls...

MM-

I'll comment tomorrow.

Hang in there...

I think after this weekend alone..I am strting to accept the M may be over..it will be interesting to see what she has to say after talking with her parents. Most likely they are very supportive of her decisions.. not trying to find a way to save a family..Her eyes are so shut and full of FOG that she does not realize what kind of [censored] OM really is and it is a shame. I feel bad for her..the man she should be with is by her side and when things fall apart with OM..she'll wake up to see that I was not a bad H afetr all.. guess what I'm trying to say is that.. this is about making a better MM for my 2d and me..become stronger and more confident..KILY any tips!!

mm:

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??" -John Belushi, "Animal House"

It's not over, MM. Keep doing what you're doing. Her family probably doesn't have the true story. And she is their D. It's not surprising they're on her side, or seem to be.

Keep hanging in there. You are doing pretty well!

-Qfwfq

Q
There are two sides tp every story .. your right!
thats why I feel she had the weekend to tell her parents everything except the info on the affair with Ratmeat.. if I can so humbly use the term..
Only gave her more time to stew and think that she is doing the right thing.. She will be back this evening..and I will do my best not to LB ..but the info I got on the weekend is sure to come up and out..should I try to get her to give me all details of this A or should I let it go and try to forget about it?

I AM CONCERNED!!!
There is a new memeber checking out my board.. JENNY8675309!!
I think it may be the OM...Jenny why have you not posted anything???? Jenny are you raelly "T.P" or should I say RATMEAT!!

mm:

Do you have any particular reason for thinking this jenny8675309 might be someone you know? (Cute login name, by the way - Steeley Dan song).

Before you answer that, just know that I had a concern like this too last summer. Seems a new user that hadn't posted was interested in posts of mine that were a few months old. I got concerned because her name was the same as a gal that could have been the OM's W's sister. It took me a couple of months to find out that she probably wasn't. Then, just a month ago, she finally posted her story, and it was obvious she didn't have anything to do with the players in my sitch.

So, think about this, and be careful. If you have reasons you want to talk about, but not on this forum, email me at the address below.

-ol' Qfwfq

MM, please don't be concerned about me. I'm a MB lurker, also a BS, who has been keeping track of posters who have similar stories to my own. Many of the people who have responded to you have indirectly provided me w/ invaluable advice. Your threads (w/ Mortarman's replies) were linked into a response to another BH's thread. I'm a friend--not Rat Meat, okay!?!

What make you she is connected to you ? phone# ?. Either way, if it is your W it is for the better since she might learn something here. If it is RATMEAT you have nothing to hide, let him compete with your love for W.

Anyway, when W is back ... don't talk about R unless she brings it up, let her starts and you have to listen.. Don't pressure her to do anything ... take one step at a time. However you have to be ready with ammends for MM, it is not to punish her but what would MM needs to recover this M and to trust W again.

-rh-

Q
Thanks bud!! really appreciate it..my WW wil be back tonite and i will be confronting her about this.. after a long day of travelling.. she has intentions of gooing to her belly dancing class.. I am sure she is set to meet up with RATMEAT..the last thing I want to do after be couped up in a car all day is to go dancing.. she is so pathetic.

mm:

Just don't JUDGE HER. Let her go if she wants to go. Think about other things. Particularly don't worry about who she may be going to meet. Contemplate your navel if you have to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Welcome Jenny! See, mm? It's easy to let our imaginations get out of control! (I know mine can!).

-Qfwfq

JENNY!!
please accept my apologies.. just getting really spooked there.. I hope all the info here iis helping you.. All these guys and gals are amazing...good thing they all have a piexce of 2x4 handy since they have to pound things into my head..If you are in the same boat , I wish ypu well because no one should have to go through all this S^^T. Take care..and again my apologies..

REDHAT
after learning so much about RATMEAT this weekend..its going to be so hard no to say a word..to my WW..I think the main thing she wil bring up is how soon can we get apart..and let her start a new life.. I have to build a better MM..biting my tongue will be a start...RIGHT MARY JANES!!!! I would be very suprized if she comes back and wants to try to make things work..
anyhow.. thanks for the advise.. sure appreciate your input!!

Q
thanks for the smack in the head...if she is going to see RATMEAT..I cannot change it..but she does enjoy her belly dancing... if that is actually what she does when she goes out.. Its her exercise night and she pays enough for it.. so your rigt let her go!!

[ April 21, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

Hey MarM (as opposed to MorM for MortarMan),

I saw my name used in vain <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> so I thought I would jump in.

How have you been working on yourself? How is the counseling going? I saw that you were going to ask about cognitive therapy but haven't seen an update.

Did I give you the Emotional Needs URL? If not here it is:

EN Questionnaire

Now, instead of a 2x4, here is a swift kick in the rump. Go get the questionnaire. Fill it out as yourself. Ask wife to take it; if she won't, you do it for her answering for her as best you can. Find an EN of hers (one of her top 5) and start to meet it. Then come back. Tell us your top 5 and then tell us her top 5. Please consider this an assignment. How about that anger management that either your counselor or someone on this site mentioned. Done any reading/work on that? "The plan works if you work it and you are worth it."

Look, I know how much the physical betrayal can tear your mind apart, but you have got to pull yourself together. I am not trying to be the gal with an amputation who goes to the hangnail support group to tell them how lucky they are. In other words, I am not trying to invalidate nor take away your pain. Please realise that most of us here have lived through it already. I understand that that aspect is harder for men than for women, but MorM, Q, RedHat, many men on this site have survivded it. It feels awful, but it will not kill you (unless you let it). If she sleeps with him, if she already has, marriage is still recoverable. Let that part of it go; most affairs aren't really about the sex, anyway. The sex is the result of the emotional connection our spouses make with another. Hell, my H did "it" for 7 years and only stopped when they got the shock of a pregnancy. Now I have a step-daughter and I have always been infertile--born without a womb. It took awile, a long time to be honest, but I am so over it, that it is old news. (Mr. J's stuck on his guilt and still in turmoil about his A, but I ain't.)

So I did all the "wasn't I good enough?" stuff until I realised his A had much more to say about him than it would ever have anything to say about me. See? This is about her--her awful coping skills, her fog, her insecurity, her screwed-up childhood, whatever. It is HER fog, HER FOG HER FOG. You don't own her fog, you can't (directly) make it go away, especially not by LBing.

Biggest word here at MBers is "plan." So what's your plan? It sounds as if you haven't read all the material on this site. The Harleys practically give it all away for free on this web site. Have you ordered a cognitive therapy book? Have you done the homework your counselor should have assigned you for this week? If not, why not? Go read---TODAY. Instead of having another argument with her, go do something TODAY that may change your life.

In peace (honestly),
MJ

Hi MM,

No need to apologize…but thanks for it anyway. I understand where it comes from. My own not knowing what the OW looks like has me peering into every car that drives by my house (a habit she’s taken up since NC). Also into the face of every woman of a certain age that fits my WH’s description of her. Can be crazy making.

Your friends here at MB are helping me a lot. Thanks for sharing them!

Qfwfq

Thanks for the welcome! I’ve been lurking a while and your advice to MM and others hasn’t stopped with them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> (Cute login name, by the way - Steeley Dan song). <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the cute---small correction: it was that one hit wonder Tommy 2 Tone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jenny:

h'DOING! You're right! I keep getting that mixed up with "Ricky don't lose that number"!

;o)
Qfwfq

MM,

Sorry for being gone so long. Things are hectic at work the last two weeks...plus my wife's car threw a timing belt...to the tune of $1500! Welcome back, honey! Just kidding...I dont mind taking care of her...actually, that's what I live to do.

Anyway, I will post more in the next couple of days. I wanted to second the motion I think Redhat said about separating your trying to Plan A, with any legal issues. Plan A like it all depends on you. Realize what Plan A is though. It is taking what Kily said, and doing things differently...FOR YOURSELF! So, when Mrs. MM turns around in the middle of Fogland, she WILL be intrigued by the different guy she sees. Believe me...this is exactly what happened between my wife and I. I will expand on this when I post later.

But, your legal issues are different. And actually...if you will stand up for your family, your kids, and yourself, she actually will find a lot of respect for you (dont expect her to admit that though). As you know, when my wife moved out, I had custody of the kids. And if we had gone to court, I damn well would have kept custody. You MUST do as was stated before and work your butt off. Put every ounce of your strength in being there for your daughters. First off...they deserve it! Second, it will give you something to do. And third...no mother can help but have feelings for someone that is treating her children so good. As Steve Harley told me...the best thing I had going for me in the middle of all of this was my three kids!

Protect our rights. Stand up for your kids. You say your daughters are better off with their Mom. Why? Are you a bad parent? Remember, my wife was the greatest mother I had ever seen BEFORE all of this happened. But my argument through the whole thing was that she had given up that "crown" when she got so selfish in order to destroy everyone's life...most importantly those three kids. She never believed any of this. But that wasnt the point. The point was that she knew that I BELIEVED THIS! So, in my eyes, she no longer was a good mother. And that didnt go over well inside her. She needed to do some introspection after that.

Like I said, I'll get into this more later. But for now...Plan A (she aint gone yet!)...give her something to miss IF she leaves! And protect your interests. Document EVERYTHING! Every call, every conversation. Right it down. I will give you more tips later.

You dont know it (and I didnt at the time either) but you are actually in the drivers seat here. She is actually the one with the problem. She is addicted, she is destroying everyone's lives (and those kids will KNOW who did what!). She is probably doing a whole host of things out of character for her. She cannot be happy! Ask kily what it was like in the middle of the fog. They may act like and sound like they are happy...but deep down, there is a battle for their souls going on.

On our side, it is very simple. We have no battle going on insdie. We want our marriages and our spouses. If that doesnt happen, then we want to at least be prepared to move on and do better the next time. Meanwhile, the WS will just keep making the same mistakes over and over until they finally wake up.

Kily woke up MAYBE a little too late to save things with her and her guy. My wife was days away from being too late for me to take her back. But she woke up. MM...THEY ALL WAKE UP EVENTUALLY! But, the question is...will you be there when she does?

More later...hang in there. Listen to these folks. Some of them are the same ones that 2x4ed me over and over (that small crack in the ebony 2x4 is from a very hard thwack I got last fall!). Keep working things out here. Then go back into "battle" with your game face on.

I'll post more soon!

In His arms.

Mary Janes
I am so glad that you dropped by..the comment was with the most respect I could muster.. Now here goes to answer your questions.. you all migt want to get the ole ebony 2x4 out for this..because I feel so ashamed and useless..
<blockquote>quote:<hr />" How have you been working on yourself" <hr /></blockquote>Quite lousy actually... have been doing some majot LBing about her and OM..she says that it has been over for a while and he has not been around the hospital very much.. but still I'm thinking that there is either something still going on or they have cooled it until MM is gone..
she sys I'm making things up and believing it!!
To the point.. I have not shut up...and I am so sorry .. because that is not the way I am going to show her that I love her.. that is why she says that she will be mving out with the girls very soon.. I know it is not right for her to make the girls move.. if anything I should leave and let the girls have a stable environment.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> " how is counseling going" <hr /></blockquote>Just had the one session..she gave me a relaxation tape to listen to..which I haven't had the time or place to play it.. maybe I should go out and but a walkman.. I wil be seeing her again next week...I amn also on her cancellation list.

Cognitive therapy.. forgot to ask her..but just called one of our best friends.. both me and Mrs. MM stod up with them when they got married..she is a psych. and filled me in..she says that CT is prety standard these days and can be very effective if you work at it.. I will bring it up next visit..

Questionnnaire.. just copied it off and will do it this evening.. I will give a copy to Mrs.MM.. she may do it.. but if not.. I'll do it for her...Although she is so angry at me.. I really do not know how much more time I may have... she really wants out and is getting frustrated that we are still together..freinds are telling me to give up.. "she is not interested in saving marriage and she does not want to be with you.."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Biggest word here at MBers is "plan", so whats your plan?" <hr /></blockquote>My plan was to save my marriage and make me a better MM.. but as usual .. I screwed up.. with all my LBing , I have driven her further away.. she says that I don't believe what she has been telling me.. ie.. she has not had sex with him.. no touching.. just kissing and most of all that it is over between them..I have been told that time and time again with all you amazing people.. but my emotions and jealousy are getting the better of me..I REALLY NEED SOME serious direction..AND ONE HARD KICK IN THE BEHIND!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "It sounds as if you haven't read all the material on this site!" <hr /></blockquote>you are right.. i have not read all that stuf and that is why it is taking me so long to respond today..I have actually started reading and will keep going.. its hard to go through it when I dont have a printer.. but I am doing my best.. I dont know why it took so long for me to read. since I could be further ahead.. but again.. this is one stupid and stubburn guy we are tallking about with MM..
<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Have you ordered a C.T. Book?" <hr /></blockquote>No I have not but I will be first buying His needs her needs.. then I will be looking for a book on CT..

Have you done the exercises... again she gave me a relaxation tape..which is in my car.. I will go home tonight and play it somewhere...

The thing about the A. is that it in her eyes it came after she said that we were through.. she does not see it as an A.. since she stopped one relationship and started another it was perfectly okay..no shame or guilt what so ever.. she had ended the marriage and started her new life.. that is why I dont know how I can win her back.. after all the LBing and me accusing her of things she says she didnt do.. how can I expect her to want to be with me? I have dug the hole and I may as well jump in...
I hope that answers your questions Mary Janes.. I am so thankful to have you as a friend here.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it..I am just so sorry that I have let my emotions get the better of me which has prevented me from using your advise to be a better MM... time to go back and read.. read.. read..

MORTARMAN
please give me some time.. I'll be responding later as well..
Thanks
I

MM-

Are you on Anti D's yet?
We need to change the focus of your posts here.

What is it that you FEAR the most? I would like a list from 1 - 10. 10 being the least.

You are totally lost and we need to get you to a place where you are focused on the stuff that you have power over. I see that you are giving her WAY TOO much control over who YOU are. WE are going to help you change that if you are willing to explore this...

It needs to happen whether your marriage succeeds or not. Trust me, I've been in your shoes to the point of nearly committing suicide.

KILY
Okay here goes...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />"are you on anti D's yet?" <hr /></blockquote>yse but I have forgotten to take them the past few days.. made a big mistake and told Mrs.MM last night that I had been taking them.. I spoke with one of her best friends husbands and he said that she is most likely recording everything to be used later in court.. I have not recoreded anything.. big mistake on my part.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "What is it that you fear?" <hr /></blockquote>Here you are!! myv biggest fears
1) Being alone and having to take care of the girls..assuming that I can have them half the time... I fear that I wil get angry with them.. due to all the stresses of the breakup and being alone that they will end up hating me and wantinmg to be with their mother.. hense no more time with dad.. full custody for Mrs. MM
2) By having to pay CS...I'll be flat broke and not be able to survive.
3)Scared of not finding love again.. If I drove my wife away.. ill probably repeat myself and drive anothert woman that I love away..I tend to come across and too needy and push myself on women,, thus driving them away.. its almost a wonder why Mrs.MM stayed with me this long!
4)Not having Mrs.MM as my wife and not having her love or even AS A FRIEND
5)Feeling so low that I want to commit suicide
6)losing my job and not being able to support my girls.
7)losing my family as a unit.. this actually should have been listed higher
8)Having to move out of my house would mean that it really is over between mr and mrs. MM..
9) not having the support of Mrs. MM when asking for advice on raising girls... this toon could have been ranked higher.. due to the fact she has tolds me in the past nbot to bother her with petty things.. what I consider very important, she would consider petty..
10)losing friends...friends we had together..
Not sure if this is what you were hoping me to say.
Maybe she has too much power.. she is quite upset this evening since she now feels that we are going to be in the same house until June or July..
until everything is straightened out..I only feel she is going to get more angry by the day andlife is going to get real uncomfortable in the MM household!
MARY JANES
gave her the EN questionnaire.. she took it and went into our former bedroom to do it.. I dont know idf she finished it.. but the first couple of questions dont make things look too promising..
Like I dont want to be touched at all!!! ZERO ZILTCH times.. never by MM.. I will eloborate more when she gives it back to me...I will fill it out tonight and give it to her... is that what we are suppose to do??? Or are we suppose to discuss and talk about those needs.. looks like she is not interested in any sort of talk about our relationship!!
comments please
KILY Thanks for being there..I hope there is something I can do.. but it does seem hopeless.

MORTARMAN Thanks for the insight..Need some good tips on a real good plan A.. tips on doing things differently for myself.. I cannot imagine herc turning around and seeingan amazing guy..If she leaves she wont leave without the girls.. and If I put up a fight I be in court or have a court order to keep me away from the girls..I am good father but she'll find a way..I really screwed up this morning after a little disagrreement with Mrs.MM.. and yelled at My oldest girl for not going to her breakfast seat...she was devastated...Mom came to the rescue and made things right.. I had to eat crow..and go to my D and say I was so sorry. she gacve me a hug and said thats okay dad.. i forgive you.. MY heart was torn to shreds...That is one of the reasons why Iat times I dont want to go on.. because I dont want to be there to hurt them by yelling constantly..
If you could see my wife you would understand that there is no love..and that she is very awake.
Even our friend who is a psych.. tells me it is unlikely that she will be back.. my therapist is a pcych .. she says give up..but I am so stupid that I want to keep going and keep taking the pain. My ww says that I just am not accepting what is going on..anyway..lets just say she is asleep.. and will eventually wake up.. I am beginning to wonder if I will be there for her.. I want to love her but she is not opening up one crack..She says that the A.or whateever it was with the OM.. is over..and she has not seen him much.
anyhow I am rambling.. sorry.. but thanks for the help.. keep it coming

marathonman,

Been there and let me pitch in for killy,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1) Being alone and having to take care of the girls..assuming that I can have them half the time... I fear that I wil get angry with them.. due to all the stresses of the breakup and being alone that they will end up hating me and wantinmg to be with their mother.. hense no more time with dad.. full custody for Mrs. MM<hr /></blockquote>Actually it is the highlight of my week when I have my 2 D. D needs to bond wiith their father they will seek you. Fear is good to keep you in check. When the time come you have to open up on why M is broken ... be honest to explain the fact and not to bad mouth their mom. My 2 D wants more time with me !. When WS is in the fog their are unable to love anybody else but themselves !. You are the better parent at this moment.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />[2) By having to pay CS...I'll be flat broke and not be able to survive.<hr /></blockquote>Have you check with your lawyer ?. I had to pay $3200+/month for 60-40 and $4900/month for 0-100%, either way I am broke but I could have my 2 D and be there for them and make sure their well being are taken care for. You will be surprise how resourcefull you are. exW now is pushing OM to my 2 D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> and punish them when they are not going her way !!!!. Now the young one is asking the co-parenting conselor to look into more time with me. She had it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3)Scared of not finding love again.. If I drove my wife away.. ill probably repeat myself and drive anothert woman that I love away..I tend to come across and too needy and push myself on women,, thus driving them away.. its almost a wonder why Mrs.MM stayed with me this long!<hr /></blockquote>There is a match for everyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , there are women that like men like you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . This MB and experience will help you to care & protect your next R. This is one of LiveANew issue but he found out that he is very highly in demand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .
<blockquote>quote:<hr />4)Not having Mrs.MM as my wife and not having her love or even AS A FRIEND<hr /></blockquote>I rather live alone happy than live together miserable or in R miserably.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />5)Feeling so low that I want to commit suicide<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm, I had those moments too but ... what would your D think of you ?.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />6)losing my job and not being able to support my girls.<hr /></blockquote>I lost my job and I am being creative to support myself & my 2 D. If you think this is the end of it you are wrong. You will have to deal with W for the rest of your D's life.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />7)losing my family as a unit.. this actually should have been listed higher<hr /></blockquote>Do you have any choice ?, you might just delaying it. But by plan A'ng as humanly possible you know you have done everything.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />8)Having to move out of my house would mean that it really is over between mr and mrs. MM..<hr /></blockquote>Nope. Actually if you move out, you reduce the chances of plan A working thus reduce the chances to save your M. Many remmarried after Dv.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />9) not having the support of Mrs. MM when asking for advice on raising girls... this toon could have been ranked higher.. due to the fact she has tolds me in the past nbot to bother her with petty things.. what I consider very important, she would consider petty..<hr /></blockquote>There are books, there are parenting conseling, there are parentwithoutpartner.org to help you as a support raising your D.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />10)losing friends...friends we had together..<hr /></blockquote>It is your friends choice. They might take side but you could get a new friends.

Not to disrespect mrs.MM. She come across to me very controlling and manipulative type of W. What is your Plan A actions ?

-rh-

MM- I've followed your posts and haven't added much because you've been receiving great advice from some of the heavy hitters in the MB lineup. One thing I'd add though is this: You have to recognize and spend time considering that there are lots of good things about you before your plan A can be effective.

You've spelled out, in great detail, all the good things about your W and how she has reasons to want to leave, but what about you? One thing about you is that you care deeply about your family, you'd walk the plank right? What are some other things?

RH-

A TAG team event!!! Very Cool...

MM-
I'm working on this.

Kily_MB@hotmail.com if you need to vent...

I'll be back with my thoughts in a while.

MM-

MM-

First of all “TAKE YOUR MEDICINE!!!”.

YOU are on the verge of a mental breakdown. Unless you want to be hospitalized and have your girls removed, get yourself stable. You need to take care of you before you can fix this. Please trust what I say. I have been there…

You are clinically depressed and this is influencing ALL of your thoughts. It’s magnifying ALL of your fears. These meds. Will get you to a place where you don’t feel so overwhelmed and hopeless. When you feel suicidal, start writing in a journal, post here, or send email to us. DO NOT shut off. Keep talking about your feelings.

Now:

Here you are!! my biggest fears

Okay number one is actually 2 itemsThe first is the MOST significant and is KEY to your recovery.

You are afraid of BEING alone!!! Why?

Let me tell you something. I couldn’t be alone either. During my entire “R”, I would go CRAZY if I had time on my hands. I didn’t know HOW to deal with it. I would overbook my day to the point where I collapsed from exhaustion at night. Eventually, I crashed as you are now doing.

Want to know what I figured out?
I didn’t like myself. I didn’t know WHO I was. I didn’t think that anyone would love me if they knew who I really WAS inside….does this sound familiar? Sit and think about this for a while. Does it apply? What’s going on inside of you?

I’ll take on the next one in a while. Step by step we’ll get you to start thinking about YOU….

Dear Marathon Man,

{{{{{MM}}}}} consider yourself hugged, in a generic MBer kind of way.

I have been where you are. I spent time in the psych unit after discovering my H's affair and child. I have suffered severe depressions before in my life, so depression wasn't new to me, but this depth, and the rage I felt, were new to me. My H was very angry at me for checking myself in. He felt I was over reacting to what he had done. It is a sort of defense mechanism many WSs have around D-day. They don't want to face how truly crippling the pain of their affair can be for the BS. As for me, it was the best thing I ever did for myself. I then spent the next 6 weeks in a day hospital--at an outpatient psych group every day for 10 hours and sleeping at home. By that point, we had both gotten the LBers under control and it was safe for us to be together--i.e., I no longer felt like killing him. No kidding, my rage was so strong I felt like killing.

Mainly what I have seen in your posts is someone spinning out of control, unable to set goals for even the next couple of hours and meet them. It's OK, it happens in these horrible situations. But the sooner that you can get some control back over your emotions and you actions, the sooner you are going to start feeling better. Don't miss those anti-ds. If your watch has a beeper function, use it. You don't have to tell anyone what the beeping is for.

As for taking anti-ds used against you in a custody hearing. I'll bet that any judge would understand, "You honor, whether or not my wife will admit it in this court, she has been having an affair with another man. The grief and shock I suffered were truly horrible. I love my wife and it is devestating to see my family being torn apart. I think I took good care of myself by seeing my doctor and taking medication to treat the depression caused by this personal crisis. I take good care of myself so that I can be the best father possible to my children. When they are grown up and married, if the same thing happened to them as has happened to me, I would hope that they would not have too much pride to go and seek help. I think my taking care of myself is a very good model for them to learn. My depression is improving, I am in counseling and I am improving steadily."

Yes, lots of therapists are aware of cognitive therapy and employ some of the techniques, but very few people do the whole shabang. I hope you would get a book and begin to work the program on your own. It is so simple, you don't need a counselor and there is nothing so gratifying as seeing yourself as capable of healing yourself.

Don't use the mediation tape in the car!!!! Danger, danger Will Robinson!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You don't want to fall asleep and that's what happens to a lot of people when they are first using relaxation/meditation tapes. You need to get your stress hormone levels down and working with the tapes daily is a good way to do that. It also teaches you to be able to summon up calming responses in the middle of explosive situations. You might know the techiniques after going through the tapes a couple of times, but w/out daily practive you won't be able to call them up in a crisis. We have two young puppies (and I am a strict mother and dog trainer). We expect and we get good behavior. They have learned how to "heel" very well in the yard, but on Easter Sunday we took them into the woods on a hike. They were a nightmare. They are big 50+ puppies and can pull me off my feet and did. The input of all the new smells and sights was too much stimulus for them to be able to focus on the "heel" command.

Same thing for personal/emotional crisis. Even if we have built some small level of coping skills they will abandon us in a high-stress moment unless they are so ingrained they have become part of us.

Cog. Therapy also helps with anger management as you learn to understand what is at the root of anger. Anger is usually a secondary emotion in response to a first emotion that we don't want to feel. Her's your brain w/out cognitive therapy: "She is saying she is leaving. I feel terrified and all alone. EWWWWW....I hate feeling terrified and powerless so instead....hmmmmm, thinking I'll get really pissed off."

OK, after months of diligent practice at cognitive therapy, when some new thought patterns have become ingrained:

"She says she is leaving. I feel terrified and all alone. I can hear myself telling myself that I will always be alone. That may or may not be true. I may be alone. I may learn to be happy alone or a wonderful woman may come along with whom I can build a much happier life, but either way, I am OK. Hmmmm.....She's leaving me. I feel unlovable. Well, wait a minute. My marriage may be broken and she may no longer love me, but there are lots of people in the world who think I am a nice guy, who love me for who I am. My kids love me, my parents do, my friends love me. I give and receive love daily with lots of different people. Besides, this marriage might be broken, but I have learned a lot, I will be a better partner in a future relationship."

It is about managing your thoughts and emotions instead of them driving you and dictating your behavior.

Really, the books are dirt cheap at a book store. Here are links to the two I would recommend at Amazon.com:
Dr. Burn's workbook--$12.57
Dr. Burn's book-- $7.99

Also, most men don't have a very good support system for emotional trauma. The only person that they talk to about emotional issues (if they do at all) is their wife, whom they consider their best friend. (Most women, if asked, will name another woman as her best friend.) Reach out, get some real, human support face to face. We're good here at MBers but we can't substitute for a real live person. Avoid the people who say useful things like "Dump the b**ch" or "more fish in the sea." You want someone who can listen and emphathise with what you are going through.

Do you have a church? If not, and if you have no strong objections to church (such as being an atheist), maybe you should look around for one. All churches are not equal and all are not equally supportive. But many, many churches are very warm and caring places filled with people happy to share the love of God with you. Maybe "Parents without Partners" might be helpful for you. Almost everyone there has been through a divorce. I am not saying your marriage is over, but saying to your wife "I am going to a PWP meeting so I can make sure to be the best dad possible. I just want to be prepared."

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am all babble and just like to hear myself talk or the sound of my keyboard clicking away. It is easy to give advice and hard to live it.

I hope you feel better soon, with or without her. It is miserable to be where you are--depressed and possibly suicidal. OH, try seeing if there is a Samaritans hot line in your area. They do suicide prevention. Even if you aren't actively making a plan, they are happy to help as much as they can by just lending a kind ear. It helped me to vent when I didn't have a counseling appt. for a few days and I felt I was going to burst.

I am not 2x4-ing you. Not in the least. I am trying for some loving guidance and just being a little less subtle about it than I normally would be as you seem so very lost right now.

Peace,
MJ

Oh, a couple more things:

Getting free Harely books: Dr. Harley is on Christian radio 2x weekly as a guest on his wife's radio show. If you call and talk to them, you get one of their books--for free. You need to call right when the show starts or you won't get on:

radio show info

You don't have to buy books. Check out your public library. They usually have His Needs Her Needs in stock or can quickly borrow it from a different library in the system. You might really want to check out LBers, since it is where you feel you have your most problems right now.

You are not useless and you are not a disappointment to us here. You are a guy going through one of the worst things that can happen to a human being. You are very emotional and sound very depressed.

Go to K-Mart and get a Walkman knockoff. I think that they are as cheap as $20 now. Your counselor will be very happy to see that you have done your homework. Counselors are people to. It is easier for us to work with highly motivated people. (I am/was a volunteer counselor for a genetic network of parents dealing with children born with birth defects. My job was to listen, to be supportive, to put them in contact with other parents, to find literature appropriate for their situation, to enable them to take good care of themselves and their sick child.)

If you get 50/50 custody of girls in some states neither of you will pay child support.

MJ

WOW!! where do I start with you guys!!

Okay REDHAT
Lets just see how this all works out.. Mrs.MM does not want to keep the girls away from me.. when ever they are with me.. I just hope that I can be the best dad and not yell at them.. Its all about self control.. Right Mary janes... walk away for a little and then come back. My biggest fear is that she will have OM (if thgey start something again) move in and he wil try to be the father figure.. hopefullly my 2ds will be smarter.
than that and not go for it.. althiough Mrs.MM says that I dont believe her that the A is over.. I just have to believe her!!
You are right, there is a match for everyone.. I just have to remember when the time comes not come on strong.. I guess women like their independence. I have a history of scaring them away by always wanting to be with them.. That has got to change..
as for friends with Mrs.MM.. whatever happens happens..if she wants to be my friend..so be it.. but she is so angry right now.. it will be a wash.. once we are seperated.. maybe it won't matter at all.
I have to be smart about suicide.. my daughters need me and heck if I were to do anything.. and Mrs.MM has changed her mind that day..chhsnces would be quite slim that we could get back together.. *ha!
Cant change whats happening.. but the longer Im there.. the more time I have to show her... just got to get my act together..and maybe save the family... although it does not look good after the EN questionnaire...Ill get into that later!!
REDhat I was a little confused on your response to point 8... by me saying that if I were t move out that the chances of getting back together would be slim.. you said NOPE!!
please explain what you meant by that... thanks
On the friends side.. if they take sides.. they were not really friends..if they wre real.. they will still be there..
She is very manipulative..although he says that I have always been very controlling..
not sure what my paln A is now since it really looks that one way or another the end is very near.. MARY JANES I am proud to tell you that last night no LBS...even after her giving me her copy of the questionnaire..I'll get into it when I respond to your post. I have to justv shut up.. and try to be the best MM possible...but right now she just does not care.. wants nothing to do with me..
REDHHAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> thanks for the help.. I am trying to process everything and let all this set in..

LITCHFIELD
you are right I have spent time saying how good my wife WAS... you know by having low confidence and self esteem.. I have forgotten what the good points are about me.. Yes, I woould walk the plank.. Us Newfoundflanders also ahve a reputation when it come to marriages.. that we will fly the plane into the boat..as a last ditch effort..right to the last drop.
I am very kind hearted...as an example my wife knows that.. but my mouth is what hurt my marriage. Time to sit back and look at my good points...Thanks it gives me something to think about.
KILY tahnks for the email address.. maybe I may drop you a line on a more personal level..
no here goes!!
Back taking the meds.. probably the raeson why I have been feeling down so much is that I have not be taking them.. If I feel real bad I will post..or send you a note if you dont mind.. it will get me turned around.. and for that I am thankful to you all.
On the being alone point.. you too are right.. I dont like myself.. I have to get with it and find out what are my god points.. that points that make me shine..when I let them out..
I am back running full time and will run a half marathon in a few weeks.. it has been helping relieve some stress and I am looking better..also a good thing for the nest R if and when my M with Mrs.MM is over. Kily keep it coming.. I am counting on you for your insight..
And Now MARY JANES
Thanks for the Hug...it really means alot coming from a friend..when My wife has a hard time saying hello.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Mrs. MM ahs no idea what pain this is causing.. she thought that she would tell me and that everything would work out and I would accept it and move out.. just like a puppy dog.. or one stupid man.. she is the one who is a few brick short a load...and a lot of hot rocks in her head causing FOG!!
Sorry if I'm spinning out of control.. but the way she is acting is causing me to feel that all chances are hopeless..Again the runnng is giving me a chance to clear my mind and start focusing.. 2 minths ago I would not run 1/2 mile.. monday Ib ran 13..
I am sure that the judge will be very sympathetic with that story if we end up in court..but at the same time I cant give up on taking them.. I have to be balanced.
I will start using the relaxation tape asap.. just need a place to do it in private.
On the CT.. I am sure that she uses that approach.. will ask for the help especially on the angry outbursts..
Will be looking for books to help out at the same time... have started going to church .. will seek out any support there is..
I will post later to you on the questionnaire we both did.. It was not too much in MM favour I guarantee you that...
You are a god sent to me.. a real treasure...I only hope I can get my act together and get some real progress to show for all your hard work!

MARY JANES
Okay..Mrs. MM is currently in "that time of the month" so I dont know how her responses were influenced.
she statred off the first question with N/A... does not want any affection.. ever..
extremely dissatisfied with affection.. she added point E...too much affectionand I dont like it..
same for sex... great need for sexual fullfillment..N/A... does not want anything ever...same for conversation...too much...does not like conversatins we have..same for recreational comp.
points she did eloborate on was Honesty/openness..
wanting more hoesty... i will go into that later..
on attractiveness.. she added to the first point...
Was attractive me....saying she is no longer attracted.. did not eloborate
she disd say on the financial.. that I do earn enough to support them.. she changed me to us..
Domestic support she did elaborate..., saying that I did not do very much.. and go to bed when there is still more to do.. Maybe a wake up call!!
Family committment.. as well saying that I dont do very much to do with the girls IE... checking to see who has homework.. and what has to be preapred for school... again a wake up call..
on admiration...she was neither satisfied or unsat.
her note.." I dont care if he admires me, as long as he does not show the girls a negative impression of me.."not sure what that means.. I will have to get back..

I am not going to get into mine right now since it was based on us being in a marriage and what I could do better.. you can see that this woman is not interested in me... maybe by starting with the points she had a concern with.. I can start a process.

Ranking of emotional needs..

Mrs MM MM
Affection Affection
Honesty Honesty
An attractive spouse sexual Fullfillment
admiration conversation
sexual Fullfillment.. Admiration
looks like two lost souls here that have a hard time finding each other again...
Mrs.MM said to me that I was going to be angry when I read her response... I actually was not.. just very upset.. take for example.. On the sexual needs..as long as it was not with MM.. she has a great need for that need.. BOOM!
not sure if you can make anything of this. . but if so sure could use some direction... she does not want anythin form of affection of admiration...the sex thing is a given.... appreciate anything you can provide to start.
Mary janes again.,. thanks for the help..
at leat she sat down with it.. not sure if that is a sign...she was however confused with the questionnaire.. saying that the questions all did not makew sense... maybe she is not paying attention..or just really confused..
Keep the advice coming I appreciate it with all my heart..you are an angel in disguise.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

mm:

At least your W filled out the questionaire! Mine has never been interested.

About you beliving or not believing your W when she tells you she's not involved with OM now:

Stop worrying about it! Then, as you get more focused on the ENs, or whatever following "assignments" you get, you can stop thinking about this. Just know that you worrying about him (and occasionally bringing that up to your W) is a BIG FACTOR in your ability to get along at all. You need to get along.

You also alluded that you sometimes yell at your kids? Are you in any kind of anger management program? You need to cut this out completely, and as soon as possible the better.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

On #8 ... Many MBer that saved their M has to separate b/c of plan B or because of their SO moved out or because BS/WS can't stop LB'ng. Some MBer - remarried after Dv. The bottom lines is you have to control and focus on plan A the best you can and avoid LB. If seperation comes you already plan the seed of doubt on her if she does the right thing. It is not the end of it, it is just part of the laps that you might have to do it.

When is she there ?

-rh-

What is it about yourself that you don't like? Start there. Be as honest as you can. Write it down. You need to figure out this because it is something that you have control over. This is the reason for your low self-esteem.

Were you this down on yourself prior to the A? Did you look to your wife to make you complete? These are the HARD questions that will help you change EVERYTHING. Stop worrying about her leaving. There is NOTHING that you can do to change her mind if she is going to go. You have NO control over her.

Just get yourself together now, because your falling apart is a BIG turn off to her...it will only make her want to go FASTER!

No problem with emails. I only wish that at MY time of Darkness that I had support like you have found. I'm confident that things would have been completely different for me if this was the case. You have a chance, that is WHY I am reaching out to YOU...

Morning MaM,

Glad to hear that you are running again. I have a huge weight problem to conquer. Lost 40 lbs. last year, maintained it for one year (right to the pound) and then started to regain when we had an awful fall and tough winter. I was feeling trapped inside, away from outdoor activities I enjoy and our recently adopted children were beginning to tell me the history of abuse they suffered at the hands of their first parents. It all became too much and despite my best efforts to maintain my balance, I became depressed again. I went back on meds and went back into counseling. Mostly it was the kids' stories of abuse and my anger at their birth parents that triggered the depression. Anger is a tough emotion for me.I don't like it and as a consequence I try and shed it as quickly as possible. That doesn't always work, especially when there is great cause for anger. You have to find a way to sit with it, be angry, experience the anger and manage it in constructive ways. Hah! if I knew how to do that I might not have gotten depressed.

Anyway, I found some online resources for learning the basics of cognitive therapy:

cognitive distortions--the way we think influences how we feel

another site with some history of cog. therapy

By reading these site (until you get a book) you will at least be familiar with some of the terminology. None of the sites tell you how to use the therapy. For that you will need a book or a counselor. Homework is an essential part of cog. therapy. You must be willing to do the work between sessions.

Blessings,
MJ

KILY
<blockquote>quote:<hr />" what is it about yourseldf that you dont like" <hr /></blockquote>Low self esteem .. lack confidence
never think I am good enough
people dont respect me
I am short and small (in more ways then one).. although Mrs. MM has never complained .. says I have always satisfied her.. must be a guy thing then.
I dont like the fact that I cant give my family the nice things like a trip down south every year.. but if she is gone what does it matter..
I have a skin disorder Neurofribromotosis... causes cysts on the skin... pretty unsightly.. Mrs.MM says that it does not bother her.. but I am ashamed..I have also passed it on to our yougest D..mrs.. MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. It tears my heart to see the start on this little girl.. because as a young woman it will hurt her self esteem .especially when she wants to go to the beach.
Always needed her to make me feel complete...
I know there is nothing I can do to change her mind.. just take a look at the info I gave from the questionnaire..By getting myself togteher and leaving her alone.. do you think that would be a start in order to put the ship into reverse?
please stay close and walk me through. time is running out..but she is still there and most likely will be until the end of may...just have to give her a peaceful weekend with no LBs..I can do it.. but I also want to show her the love she deserves without her knowing it is happening...understand what I am trying to say???
Thanks
I

MARY JANES
Thanks for the info n CG sites.. I'll check them out this weekend.... Need your input on Mrs.MM and her responses to the questionnaire..
Is she trying to tell me something about domestic support/family commitment..
By the way my en wre in order
1)affection... which she wants absolutely nothing 2)Honesty... seems both of us need some help .. here..
3)Sexual fulfillment... wants nothing from me..ever
4)Conversation...hates it when we talk.. at least lately..have to get back together in order to have nice things to talk about..
5) admiration..she does not care if I admire her..
as long as I dont give the girls a neg impression of her..
My head is exploding!! I don't know how to get into her head or heart...where do I start with this woman..
need your insight!
tHanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay-

There is a story someone shared with me about something similar -

A king had a simialr skin problem. He was so ashamed of it that he ordered EVERYONE in his kingdom to look away when he walked by him. People stared anyway. The king became SO ashamed that he started to wear a bag on his face. Well time went on and the king looked at the world through this bag. He was very lonely because he thought that no one liked him. He decided to run away and found himself on a mountain peak where a wise man lived.
At first he wouldn't speak to this wise man, because he was afraid that the wise man would reject him. Then one day, the wise man spoke to him and asked him why he was so sad. He explained to the wise man what his problem was, and the wise man laughed. He told the man to take the bag off his face. The king was afraid. Finally the king took the mask off his face and as he looked in the water, he realized that the wise man had a similar skin condition.

The king was amazed that the wise man wasn't ashamed of his face. The wise man explained that it was what is in his heart that mattered. He encouraged the king to go back to his village. The king happily returned.

When the king walked down the main street, he held his head high as people stared at him. When they did, he smiled at them.

They smiled back....

He never wore that bag again.

My point - it's what's in your heart that makes you beautiful. Not how you look.

When you see your daughter, do you think she is ugly? How do you perceive her? What makes you love her?

Now, if you don't like yourself, how can you expect someone else to?

Your marriage is DEFINATELY salvageable. YOU need to do some work though to get yourself STRONG enough to get there. I know form what you've written that your wife LOVES you. She simply can't meet the needs that you have and is exhausted from trying....You need to start digging sir....and maybe start reading some books too.

If I can suggest something, I would start with Melody Beattie's CO-Dependant no more.

Truthfully, I've felt the same insecurities too. You know what I discovered? It was ALL in my head.
I saw a picture of myself when I was a teenager. I was a beautiful girl. I thought I was ugly and that no one really loved me. I used to slouch to hide the fact that my breasts were too small...

And about that package of yours....that was WAYYY to much information!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding.

Truthfully, Size REALLY doesn't matter. It's more about intimacy, and how you use your tool to enhance the intimacy.

KILY
Thanks so much for the words of wisdom.. I knoww that I am a truly amazing person..my running team wasfloored by the easiness inmeeting and talking to people in a foreign country. I havve to start loving me and knowing whats in my heart..Why are there tears in my eyes.. thanks so much.
I have to start loving myself.. you are right... any tips on finding myself and the true me?.. On my Daughter.. I do love her.. it doesnt matter.. an when she grows up .. I'll teach her this story as well.. when she says dada what wrong with me...
there is so much I want to show my wife...and help her love me again.. KILY... what makes you think that my marriage is salvageable??? she cant stand to be around me... HOw can you tell that she still loves me..what she says is that she does not hate me... just that she does not want to be around me..
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You need to do some work though to get yourseld strong enough to get there.... you need to start digging...she simply cant meet thosew needs.<hr /></blockquote>please elaborate.. esopecially on the point about her being exhautsed.. she is not trying to meet any needs... am I coming on to strong to her???
You know .. alot of what I think has been going on with the OM.. mrs.MM says that it is all in my head.. Im making up stories and beleiveing them..
she says that is has been over for a while... is it time that I at least beleive her and give her the benefit of the doubt??
I'll look for the book... thanks for the crack.. but be careful what you ask for..Gotta stop being so insecure... It has been said time and time again.. here that you women like men who are confident... I have to get mu act together and build that confidence and bring MM to an amazing new level... can you help me there as well..
again.. How can you tell that she still loves me..
I am convinced she is on the border of hating me..
Kily... you have been truly wonderful to me...and from my heart thanks... keep the advise coming.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MM-

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> any tips on finding myself and the true me?.. <hr /></blockquote>Start looking...

The answers are inside, underneath all of those fears that you listed. The meds. and the IC will help you get there. It takes time, patience, a commitment to get there, and faith.

This is BIG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />On my Daughter.. I do love her.. it doesnt matter.. an when she grows up .. I'll teach her this story as well.. when she says dada what wrong with me...
<hr /></blockquote>and
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mrs.MM says that it does not bother her.. but I am ashamed..I have also passed it on to our yougest D..mrs.. MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. It tears my heart to see the start on this little girl.. because as a young woman it will hurt her self esteem .especially when she wants to go to the beach.
Always needed her to make me feel complete...
<hr /></blockquote>Okay - this is a leap here, but just go with me...

Your daughters condition doesn't matter, why? Because you LOVE her. Why should it matter for you? You are ashamed of the way YOU look. You passed that on to your daughter and you know what, right now you are teaching HER to be ashamed of this too.

Look at yourself with different eyes here. Look at yourself with the eyes of a parent. Look at your daughter, then look again at you...there's no ugliness there...just someone that was really HURT by other people's ignorance. Don't let your daughter be the victim that you became. Teach her what beauty really is. Learn that for you first...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why are there tears in my eyes? <hr /></blockquote>Because YOU are now at the top of the mountain peak and you have met the wise (wo)man. For the first time ever in your life, you see that things can be different. You realize that maybe, just maybe, there's NOTHING wrong with you...It's time to think about taking that bag off your face.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> please elaborate.. esopecially on the point about her being exhautsed.. she is not trying to meet any needs... am I coming on to strong to her??? <hr /></blockquote>How can I explain this? It's really hard to put into words...

Let's start here:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. <hr /></blockquote>No, she doesn't, but She knows what it's like to watch you rip yourself apart over it. She knows what it feels like to watch you look at yourself with self-loathing and not be able to reach you to let you know that there's beauty there that SHE sees. She knows what it's like to watch you BLAME yourself for your daughter's condition...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Always needed her to make me feel complete <hr /></blockquote>BINGO!
This is where the exhaustion comes in. What are YOUR expectations of your wife. You do not feel complete unless she is there. How has this attitude affected your M? What types of burdens have been put on her to make you feel complete? What happens when she can't meet those expectations?

Do you see where I'm leading with this. YOU can change yourself. It doesn't MATTER if her A is beginning, ending, or never happened. THese things need to be fixed in YOU in order for you to be WHOLE! Once THAT happens, it will ALL fall into place for you.

She ran because she wasn't reaching you. Your pain was too deep and you either shut her off, blocked her out, or needed her so much that you were suffocating her. When you lose your identity, she lost hers too.

The A was her way of trying to "fix" everything. She wants her family, she just doesn't know HOW anymore...

KILY
Thanks wise woman...I have to beleive in myself..know that I am an amazing person,,and worthy of a look..that will help build my seld esteem confidence.. and on and on...thansk for the kindness.. I will teach my daughter that it does not matter what on the outside its whats inside..heard that before but didn't pay attention.. this goes back to childhood...
now on the topic of mrs MM and her affair... she was fed up with me after her saying that I treated her like garbage for the past few years...although the affair with OM was shortlived.. with kissing only.. so she says..
it was a result of her saying that her marriage with me was through.. so no guilt // perfectly okay to proceed.
I have to back off on her and start treating her like this never happened(assuming that it is really over).
Change myself...make me whole..and it will all fall into place...this really is not so much about me needing her so much as was the way i treated her...that has to change.. fast!!
If the A was her way of trying to fix things..
what do I do next.. you have been very inspiring...do go away..just keep coming with the advise,,
But please answer this .... how do you think that she still loves me .. when all I get is get away from me .. and I cant wait to be in a peaceful house without you.. and I want to make love but not with you..ect.. am I missing something here..
Thanks so much for your help.. time for me to go inside MMand dig out the best guy in the world..
I know mrs MM and Mr.MM are meant to be together.. I just have to get her to slow downand look back at who wshe is missing..

I was a WS remember....I still LOVE x.

The problem is that now she is in a FOG...you've heard about that, right. She's ANGRY because of issues that SHE has....now you see that you have issues too. When a WS is in the FOG she is completely self centered and will do ANYTHING she Damn well pleases because it's all about her. She's punishing you, blaming you, and basically forcing the issues because she didn't know any other way.

If she didn't love you, she would have already divorced you...She wouldn't have gone through the trouble of sneaking around, lying, etc...In her mind she was protecting you from pain...that's the twisted mind of a WS....

Her feelings are buried WAY beneath the ANGER. Do not ignore the A...just change your focis on to something you have control over...YOU.

KILY
She is still here because we have little money..for her to just take off.. she has been secretly looking around for apartments and houses..once we split to assets she will be on her way..With your points on her being in the FOG and having issues..do I just let this run its course..and let het sort things out. Its seems that a seperation is what she wants.. no questions asked.. The A happened after she said she did not love me ( so she says)...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Her feelings are buried way beneath her anger, do not ignore the A (Affair? Anger?) just change your foucus.. <hr /></blockquote>If her feelings are buried deep .. what is it going to take to get her love out... she hangs around with divorced women at work.. all I'm sure are planting stuff in her head..what next??
thanks

fog or no fog.. I am so torn by all the crap thar has happened with her.. she is so cold toward me.. after all the LBs...which were a result of my being frustrated about all the crap about Ratmeat and her wanting to break up.. she still has feelings for him even though she says he called it off. I cant go on trying to think that there is a chance.. I am just setting myself up for BIGGGGGGG letdown.. today she says I am not interested in you... I dont love you.. get on with it!! face it we are not going to be togther.. as soon as I find somewhere.. me and the girls are gone!!! I just want some peace and quiet away from you!! I know that she is waiting for RATMEAT to leave his girlfriend and family.. so she can start soemthing with her knight is shining armour...This really has to be a fog..since she says that this guy has been her best friend for a few years.. she know says that he is the only one who understnds me... she has no idea what kind of scumbag he is.. not the first time for him to screw around..after all my LBs if she were ever to come out of her fog..and see the light.. she still won't be looking at me as the man she should be with.. so I guess what I am trying to say is. I have accepted that it is over..and time to move on...Kily if you are there or Q or Mortarman or Mary Janes...I feel that the dream is no over!

MM-

If you don't calm down, You ARE going to lose your Marriage. A is always an abreiviation for Affair.

Those words are TYPICAL WS words. I USED them myself! I told X 11 times to move on and find someone else. I told him that I was NEVER coming back!!!

GO BACK AND READ WAT's guide to WS's. I will look for it and bump it for you if I can find it.

I'll adress more later

MM,

Come on man! Why is it you continue to think your wife is different from any of the other WSs? Kily is telling you that she did the exact same things, said the exact same things. So did Mrs. Mortarman. So did ssooooo many that we have read about on here. If it werent so tragic, it would be hilarious how WSs really are just clones...there is really nothing new in their behavior.

Your marriage is over if you want it to be. No one will blame you for wanting it to be over. but dont listen to that "alien" masquerading as your wife. She may look serious, sound serious, and even act serious. She may mean everything she says. But she is not in her right mind. Listen to Kily. She knows. My wife said ALL the things yours is...and she meant it! Where is she now? Home rebuilding her life with me.

MM...when you decide to have some faith in the plan (and more importantly...in God), then you will have peace. And then, the odds are, your wife will be home. Until then, you only make matters worse for you, your wife and your daughter. If I could tell you that I have seen a crystal ball and KNOW for sure that your wife will be back in your arms in the next six months, would you change the way you are acting toward her? If God Himself told you that He will bring her home soon, wouldnt you just look at your wife and hear her statements as just ramblings of someone that doesnt know what they are talking about? Of course you would.

Ratmeat has less than a 5% chance of ending up with your wife. If anyone should be worried, it should be him. With you sticking to the plan, odds are, she WILL come home. So, tell yourself that your odds are better, that she will be home (you just dont know when). And then act like it. Ignore the rantings of the alien. Stay focused on the endgame. When you do that, it will be the beginning of the end of this nightmare. For both of you.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN/KILY

She is saying that either she or I have to leave very soon.. I did some major Lbing yesterday about her and RATMEAT...she says that its over and nothing going on.. says that I have to believe her.. If I move out take a settlement from her.. are there still chances of us getting back together? or should I try to convince her to at least stay for a while before she moves out.. if she does she takes the girls which will throw them way out of sorts..I have seemed to have lost the faith in God and have not prayed very much.. I sure hope its not too late! I really screwed up this weekend when I had a chjance to show her some love.. Please take a look at my comments on her conmpleting the EN Questionmnaire and give me your comments...I dont know why I keep on talking about this guy,.. when I am the real problem that our marriage failed so often in the past by not treating her like a queen.. I was the one that drove her into the arms of another man...How can I convince her that moving right now is not the best thing for either of us to do..
How do I get her to step back and open her eyes??
I want to beleive that she willl be back inmy arms.. its been almost 5 months and she has not left.. but now she is serious...I just don't want to get my hopes up and then have big letdown when she does not ask me to come home or her not come home if she moves out...I will try so hard to keep the faith...and start to pray so hard again..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
MORTARMAN/KILY

How do I get her to step back and open her eyes??
<hr /></blockquote>To be brutally honest: your one and only chance is by changing your behavior. It is the only thing that you have control over.

Every day you come here and tell us about loud arguments and LBing (on both your parts). Well, she is not on Plan A, she doesn't know much about MBers, but you do. If you can't calm down then a separation might be better in the short term. All you are doing right now (by fighting with her) is convincing her that she is right in her decision to leave the marriage. She has predicted your behavior (angry and loud) and you are proving her right every single day.

Have you asked your doc to add in a mild tranquilizer as well as the anti-depressant? There are some newer ones out there that are not as addicting as the old benzodiapems (Valium, Xanax, Klonopin). It really sounds as if you need some relief from your anxiety. I used three meds in the wake of D-day, an anti-depressant and two anti-anxiety meds. I successfully got off all three of them and the anti-d was the most difficult to wean myself off of. If you don't have addiction problems, your doc might agree to give them a trial.

I am sorry things are still so hard. Get your mind off RM. In fact, believe it or not, stopping calling him names (even in your mind) is one good way to stop feeding the anger--again that cognitive therapy stuff.

You are feeding your own anger and anxiety. Yup, they are natural reactions to a loss or impeding loss (your marriage, your intact family, her leaving). There is nothing wrong with experiencing these emotions, but you are now weeks and weeks into this and they don't seem to be diminshing any. It is what you (or any of us do) with our emotions that becomes cause for concern. You feed yours by allowing you mind to stay trapped in a vicious circle that then allows the strong uncomfortable emotions to grow, the more they grow, the more of a life of their own they take on.

Work on your prayer life, get some extra counseling. Working on spiritual submission to God helped me to trust that I was going to be OK in or out of our marriage. Praying for OW (not for her to "win," but for her spiritual, emotional and physical health) was a really hard thing to for me to do, but it was a good spiritual exercise. We are commanded to pray for our enemies. Christ prayed on the cross "Father, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That one is simple, easy to remember and might work for you. Please remember that although anger is not a familiar emotion for me, I had as much rage in the beginning as you seem to have. Anger control/management is possible for most of us, although I think men might have a harder time because of all the testosterone running through them. Hey you aren't on any anabolic steroids are you? I doesn't seem like something runners would take but just thought I would ask. We all know about 'roid rage, right?

Peace, turn it over to God. When you get impatient and try to grab it back from him, turn it over again. Sometimes I had to do it 30 or 40 times a day. It looked like a celestial ping-pong match. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MJ

Mey MarathonMan,

I assume that you are already in touch with a medical center that handles NF. Do you belong to one of the patient support groups? I know that belonging to a support group can be one of the most "normalizing" experiences one can find. I know, it worked for me. In fact, I was one of the first two founders of a national support group for Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS web site ), an intersex disorder. Yes, I have it and I felt alone and ashamed until I met others with the same condition. It is, in the old ugly terminology a hermaphrodite condition. Given that re-building a strong female indentity had been a challenge for me once I found out the truth of my condition at age 35 (my parents kept it secret), my husband's infidelity really struck at a very primal place in me and his having a child with another woman is what pushed me over the edge (temporarily). I wondered if he strayed for the purpose of having a child of his own. I wondered if I wasn't good enough for him, all the usual stuff.

Let me know if you follow the link to the support group, as I will remove it immediately afterward. The site contains much personal information about me and I don't want my MBer anonomity taken away.

Do you get the NF newsletter from the NNFF? There is a great article in the most recent newsletter about a marathoner who lost his hearing due to his NF. ( NF newsletter)

I would urge you to take advantage of the support groups for your medical condition. It is part of healing yourself and getting emotionally strong enough to be a full partner in a marriage. Early in our marriage I was way too needy and dependent. I worked hard in therapy, for a number of years, to overcome old issues. Now that my H is depressed for two years, I understand that being the support person for someone who is not standing on their own two feet is an exhausting thing to live with.

I know that parents who pass on a genetic disorder live with a lot of guilt. It has happened time and time again in my family with my medical condition and with, now, a new always fatal genetic condition having come to light in my sister's child. All of this is another reason to go to the support group. You will meet other parents in your situation. Knowing that most people with a serious genetic condition would not choose to never have been born, helps some people alleviate some of their guilt.

Put your trust in God that He has a plan for your daughter's life. Sometimes a birth defect can give us great gifts that we might not have otherwise come by--like compassion and mercy.

MJ

MARYJANES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Thanks for all the kind words of wisdom..all the arguing is doing me no good..and is just pushing her further away. have not met with doc..the ads seem to be working well and I am not as bad on the rolllercoaster as have been in the past.. Have to stop talking about OM... although she met with him this afternoon..who knows... what she is up to..( she told me this morning she was seeing him to discuss a few things)..If I just stop talking about her abd "T", maybe she may think what going on he isn't saying anything..and get to thinking! I received an email from a friend today and she told me " it's easier to catch flies with honey that with vinegar".. makes real sense.. almost what you are saying to me...
once again a few weeks ago you told me to shut up..and I let my emotions get the better of me...
Time also to start praying more than ever... stop telling her that I love her... she knows I do!! lets see what this evening brings..
Thanks again MJ... I really appreciate the help!

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
MORTARMAN/Q/KILY/MARYJANES and everyone else
Found out today.. while looking through her jacket that she has rented an apartment and will be pushing to take the gorls with her.. this is the Third bombshell.. first.. the "I dont love you".. second was RATMEAT... third...the apartment..she is doing all this stuff behind my back.. she is really going to screw up the girls by moving them out.. last night before I went to bed.. I told her that she could stay here... but she went out anyway.. borrowed I dont know how much fro her parents ( whom she says have no money)...great people hey!!! anything to help their Daughter break up a family.. no wonder her sister is also divorced...anyway.. looks like the beginning of the end for ole MM here... NO signs ogf reconciliation what so ever.. this is the end...thanks to everyone..who tried to help me..I am grateful for all your assistamce.. My friend mortarman.. good luck with your new life with your wife...all the best!!

marathonman:

Sorry, I've been distracted by my own silly behavior for the past few days. But:

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

Forget about whether you can see reconciliation on the horizon for now. You are judging everything you THINK your W is doing or saying right and left. Sure, what you've "discovered" and what she's doing may be "facts." But you're letting your perception of them dominate everything you say and do. She has to see that. Would you be attracted to her if the shoes were on the other feet? (assuming they even remotely fit, that is?). Of course not.

Having said all that, I will now come right out and say that even lofty ol' Qfwfq keeps screwing up at home. Read Mortarman's latest update. We all still do this. But KNOW THIS: You will lengthen her A (assuming she's in one right now) or even drive her to resume it or have another one (assuming she's telling the truth and she's not having an A right now), by continuing with this behavior of yours.

It's far from easy to stop the LBing. That's why this whole rebuilding thing is so darned difficult. But you have to do it, marathonman. You HAVE TO!

FOCUS,
-Qfwfq

Q
She took the day off from work since I tried to call her na dfound her at home.. I told her that it would be best if she stayed in the housena dthat I left...she says either way one of us is going to leave.. looks like i'm out of time?? if I did not LB anymore.. it s not going to make a difference..The A was a seperae issue..she is leaving me anyway.. how can I pput a stop to it and get time back on my side??

MM-

You CAN NOT go backwards...you can only start here and move forward. What's in motion will happen. In a way I think YOU need some time on your own to calm down and get yourself in a place where you are emotionally healthy...once that happens, you can focus more clearly on your plan-a.

Are you taking your meds?

KILY
Is it okay if I move out and let her have the house instead..I have a gut feeling that she is still involved with OM..she says she isn't but she still sees him every day and works with him.. how can it not be ovber??
If I move out.. the girls do not have to be moved around like sheep!
How can plan A work if we are not talking to each other?? I have not been taking the ads.. I have started training for a marathon and the running seems to be keeping me level.. no crying, no hard time sleeping.. just want to have this nightmare ovber with..
Kily If you can only see her eyes and the words.. how can I expect to see hope when the A was a seperate issue.. she said she was leaving me because of the way I treated her..was it a coincidence that the A started just after..was it a coincidence that OM was having trouble with his marriage at the same time??
This woman means business... If we are going to be literally seperated how can I ever hope for things to work themselves out??
sorry to ramble... but time is running out.. need input from the pros!!

MB VETS AND PROS!!!
My ww has rented an apartment.. she is saying that she is going to take the girls and move out next weekend...If I try to be the noble one and move out girls are going to think that I left them..should I go???or should I let her move out??
If I leave..what are the chances that reconciliation can occur.. she says that there is no future.. says that everything is over with RATMEAT..when is it time to call it quits and give up hoping that she will come back to me...
She is so set it her ways that she does not want me touching her in any way..
KILY!!
Is it wrong for me to disbelieve her when she says there is nothing going on with OM..is it classical behavior for her to tell me not totouch her since she is getting affection somewhere else..or is she telling the truth??
I dont want to leave and I dont want her to leave since that would mean that it is finally over and she will nmever be back in my arms..this woman has so much distain for me..
I am trying not to say much about RATMEAT..but just looking at her and knowing that she talks to him every day makes me want to beleive that she is still up to something or keeping the EA alive.
I just think that the reason she got the aprtment was so she could have a place to bring RATMEAT..
I know I am rambling...
I know that you said maybe time aprt is what is required... but that time apart will spell the end officially for Mr.and Mrs.MM... see I am the one that will be leaving... the chances of her calling me and asking me to come home and get back together will be slim.. AM i right in saying that???
Please please give me something to go on...

LET HER GO! Reality will show her soon enough that the world is NOT as she sees it. The OM, like most of his ilk, will not be too thrilled to carry on the burden of his lover's children. Even if he takes her in, the resentment he will feel will grow until one day he will have enough and kick her and your kids out. Your WW doesn't appreciate what she has with you because she beleives in the OM promises. Don't be surprised if she finds that what she wants is truly not what she expected.

TOO MUCH COFFEE
what if I leave her in the house and get my own apartment...will it be any different???
she says that it is over between her and OM...I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!
How can I hope that she will open her eyes..once I am gone and want me back.. I cant see it happening!!
This is all wishful thinking on my part!She has been best friends with OM for a few years...
he is shacked up with a girl...(common law)...
for a few years and has a kid with her.. she has
a few kids from another relationship..and he loves those kids like his own... should be no problem with him loving my kids when and if he moves in...it just P&**esme off...she has no interest in saving marriage..I have to find the best way to get through all this..
again idfd I move out... what are the chances she will come back???

It might be the same to you and me, but in the eyes of the law, it probably is not and she may be in for a rude awakening (contact a lawyer to verify). Just imagine if she loses custody of the girls and she gets slapped with child support (don't laugh, it happened in my case with my ex-WW).

As I said before, most OM's are opportunist that once the time comes to put their money where their mouths are, they usually tend to high tail it out of Dodge before their MW(married women) know what happened.

TOO MUCH COFFEE
Thanks//'ll post after I speak to my lawyer...
I have done some major LBing over the last few weeks..I cant seem to let this stuff go.. even if she says that it is over with RATMEAT..Howe can it work out that she has to pay me CS.. she wil have a hayday in court on saying how much I don't do and can't do for the girls on a day to day basis..I will se what the lawyer has to say.. seems to me that she cant just up and move them out!!. but there has been a lot of arguing going on.. maybe thats her grounds.. maybe I'm upo S&*T creek!

MM-

Just windering how you are today...I read your thread and everyone gave the same advice that I would have...the only thing I suggest in addition is that you sit down and tell your little girl IN a POSITIVE non damaging way...that you don't want this, it is her MOM's decision, and that her home will always be with you...

I'm no MB pro, but here are my thoughts. It's very unfortunate that your W refuses to work on the M and wants to move out. But I say let her move out. Like TMCM says, hopefully the harshness of reality will wake her up. Stop speculating if it would be better if you moved out. She wants to, so let her, you keep the family home. There is no reason why you should be the one to move out if she wants to leave.

Jen

Yes, mm, keep the house! And maybe go to the local Home Despot, buy some good exterior paint, and spruce it up real nice so when your W sees it she wonders what's going on! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Think of it as a positive distraction that's also constructive for you future!

-2long (fka Qfwfq)

To all.!
My wife moved out last Monday with the two girls.
moved into an apartment.. the night before she left we had a bmajor fight about what she could take if she moved out...I came home the next day to find a moving van in the house and did not say anything to her. OI ended up hurting myself big time and I am lucky to be alive.. no going to go in to anything here..
I have only seen the girls twice since then.. Friday evening for supper andf a few hours..and again on Mothers day afternoon.
Lat night she called and was amazed how clam I was talking to her..she has said that I got it good by not having to do anything.. but she is the one who decided to move out..I would prefer to have the family together.. but afer hearing some mean stuff from her.. I have toi tell her that it's time to move on... She still is set on seperating and does not love me... what next do I do???? Just try be as nice to her as I can when she sees or talks to me??
It has been a very hard week.. one I never want to have again.. ever!!!!

MM-

Just remember we're here for you brother! You know, one way or the other, everythings going to be alright. You're going to find happiness again soon, just wait and see. In the meantime, keep working on yourself. By that, I mean concentrate on getting comfortable being independent. You're a runner right? How you ever done a sub 6 mile? A sub 5? Go for it! Don't be afraid to ask for help to control your anxiety/depression but keep working on that independence. Good luck and god bless you and your family!

MM-

I am so worried for you. I hope that you are okay. Yousaid that you hurt yourself. I've been there buddy, I know how much pain you feel. Remeber, you survived because God has a plan for you.

Please keep posting here and use this site as your support. You need an outlet and this is the best one that I've happened upon.

We definately are here for you.

Hugs.

MM you may be interested in applying Divorce Busting's 180 degrees list.

[ May 14, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Marathonman,

I am sorry to hear this, but in the end, it may be for the best. Look at me and Mrs. Mortarman. She moved out last August. She has now been home for over 6 weeks and things seem to be going great. Go back to my posts and read again. See where things went with us, the LBs, the false reconciliations, the lies, the mean things she said and did, etc. But in the end, where is she?

I told you all along, and this was the hardest thing to learn...that this is a war. You just lost one battle. The war aint over. I thought it was last August. I REALLY thought it was over this past December. But after talking with my wife the last few weeks, I found out a few things.

First, what she was saying to me, and what was reality in her life was two different things. I asked her when she had decided to come home. She said she had begun to think about it within a couple of weeks after leaving. Huh? I didnt understand. Why did it take 6 more months? Why did she continue the relationship with the OM, when she felt like she wanted to come home?

You see...reality was not what she thought. The fog had blinded her, as it has your wife. But guess what? Now, she has to face it alone. Now reality will smack her in the face...the reality of what she thinks will happen versus what will really happen. Have you read Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley? the first couple in the book is pretty much like your situation and mine. The wife (Sue) also moved out to be with the OM. At first she moved out without the kids into an apartment. Then she was miserable, and thought it was because the kids werent with her, so demanded to come home and Jon move out. So he did that And she was still miserable. But it wasnt until the OM (Greg) realized that Sue just wasnt going to fully leave her family, that he decided to get out. Sue was devastated. But, she decided to see if she could repair things with Jon...and then they did.

My wife said pretty much the same things. For months, her OM was hounding her to get the divorce, to stop accepting flowers from me, to stop talking to me so much. He asked her at one point right at the end why she hadnt pursued the divorce (even though he offered to pay for it). She said she didnt know. But he said (and she knew) that she didnt WANT to divorce.

Did she say all along she wanted a divorce to me and OM? Sure. Did she move out? Sure. Did she say mean things to me, and make plans with him? Sure. Did she continue an adulterous relationship with him? Sure. But guess what? Inside her, there was constant turmoil. She didnt really WANT to do this...the fog had just blinded her to the possibilities of getting things back. She was stuck, with no way out. So, she put on the face for me, and for OM, and continued.

That face was easy to continue when I LBed. But when I finally stopped for good in December, a strange thing began to happen. My wife began to see reality, and could not ignore it anymore. She loved me. She wanted her life back. She still couldnt trust me to give that to her, but I had shown her enough good things in Plan A that she was able to at least think she had a shot at happiness.

The second thing that happened was that by me backing off, it made the OM support her fully. And he failed miserably. She began to see the truth about him too. She began to see what her life almost turned into. MM...this is why 95% of those relationships fail. THEY ARE A LIE, based on lies and propped up by lies. My wife admitted that she never showed her entire self to the OM over the 18 months of the affair. That is unti lI backed off. Once I pulled myself out of the picture, she relaxed and tried to make things work with him. But now, both are not on their best behavior. They dont have to defend themselves against Mortarman. All they had was each other. And both of them began to see that they really didnt know each other, and what they were beginning to see was not very appealing.

My point here MM is that this is not the beginning of the end...just the end of the beginning. In the recent Gulf War, the troops all new that all roads home led through Baghdad. They knew until they got there, they couldnt go home.

This war you are in leads through "Baghdad." You cannot shortcut it. But you sure as heck can get bogged down in small firefights, or get lost in the desert, and make this incredibly longer and more painful. I did…read my posts again. Go straight to Baghdad. The road is laid out for you. Do not be diverted, nor discouraged. Ignore the mess around you and concentrate on the objective.

Kily will be able to tell you that what I said about my wife is pretty much standard for WSs. YOUR WIFE IS NO DIFFERENT! Get that through your head now. Get your battle plan together. Do your "shock & Awe" campaign by being a GREAT Dad to your girls (she will not miss out on that), and conduct psychological operations on her (and I can help you put that plan together, in order to maximize your effectiveness in Plan A). NO MORE LBs. No more arguments. Concentrate on Baghdad. It may take six months to get there…through some awful tough times. But if you stay on plan, and keep focused on the end, you will get there. I think my military training, more than anything else, helped me get through this and stay focused.

Everyone here will help you keep straight and vent. But, in front of your wife and kids, you must be on your best behavior. No crying, no pleading, no arguments, no LBs. Finish out Plan A over the next few weeks to months, and then when she is full set up, you can blast her out of the water with Plan B.

Marathonman, I know the desperation you feel. I lost 35lbs in one month. I thought about "hurting myself" also. That is not the answer. The answer lies in the goal. I am living proof of what happens in this. You and your wife are no different. Mine moved out. Now yours has. You going to make the same mistakes I did and drag this out? And stay in pain? Or, you going to get on mission, and focus, and trust the plan…trust yourself…trust God?

What is it going to be MM? Make a decision right now! Then we can all help you get your plan together. I can help you in the Plan A, psychological operations part. It is what I do in the Army. And I have some stories for you in upcoming posts on how my psyops were received by my wife and the OM. They worked GREAT, although I didn't know how well until after she came home and told me. But at the time, I just trusted that they would work.

So, make your decision. With her gone now, it will be easier now to get a handle on yourself, so you can be on the top of your game when you see her. Your girls need you to pull it together. Your wife, even though she doesn't know it yet, needs for you to pull it together.

Get with it! This is only the end if YOU want it to be.

In His arms.

Mortarman
Okay... lets get to work.... pronto!!
My wife has said some mean things in the last week. the night before she left we had a real big fight..because of what i did I ended up in the hospital for two days.. I'm lucky it could have been two-three weeks...and yes I'm lucky to be alive!
Lets get to work on the plan..and really concentrate.. but let me ask you.. when she moved out and was with the OM.. why did you stay and not move on?? My friends are now telling me that I look better and should leave her behind and look toward a new life.. but in my heart I know that I love her... how do i know that she won't screw around again... I can assure you that she will never end all contact with OM..she needs him to work on the wheelchairs.. he's the only one around.. unless I can tell her to switch jobs..
but hey! that's down the road...tell me what i have to do now .. to starton the road to Baghdad..tell me your tricks taht you used.. help me do this right!!
My WW will not let me talk to the girls very much..she says that I am irrational..
But when I spoke to her I was very calm and did not LB at all... My mother is visiting for a few weeks and my WW called to ask if she would babysit..all the while yelling at her about how bad I was... but also asked why i was so calm...
she noticed already!! this is a start..No LBS, no yelling, ect..
So lets get with it and save this marriage!
Thanks
Its good to be back amongst friends
Marathonman

KILY/TMCM
Thanks to you both for your concern..Kily please how can I again get to you off the site.. I will explain more.. since you are the closest thing to my wife.. I will like to discuss this and get some honest input..
TMCM..I will try to stay in the house as long as I can..I have spoken to my wife a few times since last week..and have done a great job at not Bing... I did however tell her that she can bring the girls back and I will move out..I can change my mind though. Why not move out .. she pretty well took everything..
I have no concrete evidence that she is still seeing RAT MEAT..so the psychologist I am seeing is telling me to drop it!!'
The only thing I can do is to show my WW that I am moving on..
On the Divorce busters 180..too bad I did not see that a few months ago..maybe things would be diferent..but now I Plan A from a distance..
It's going to be hard road.. but I don't know what the outcome will be!! lets hope that things do work out for the best..
after I was in hospital.. My wife who actually saved me.. said "This does not change anyting, I am still leaving you!!"
this is one reason why I am lettingv things no go emotionally..and accept that the marriage may be over.. but in my heart..I want to beleive that there is hope!!
TMCM..
My brother and fellow knight
THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I
Take care and thanks

MM-

Send me an email at kily_MB@hotmail.com.

I will answer any questions that I can...

MORTARMAN/KILY/VETS
Got a call from our mediator last nigt...My wife wants to meet to discuss splitting of assets..
I would assume that this is not a real good thing for my hopes of reconciliation!
Don't want to do anything until I can talk to my lawyer..My stint in the hospital may dampen my chances of getting 50/50 custody of the girls...
How can I hopr to mhave my marriage back with a final and definite split of everything..
MORTARMAN.....Unlike your wife my wife does not call me..the last time I bought her flowers.. she did not takeb care of them and ended up throwing them out the next day...
If there is a chance.. I need you to get me on track with this plan... and save this marriage and family.
what next?

I just was reading thought your postings and the replies. All i can say to Mortarman is ....WOW. Awesome analogies.
By the way, my wife had an affair with a guy at her work 2 and half years ago. I have "fought" this war. I felt it might help if I contributed my experience. About a couple weeks after "D" day, I followed advice I read on the focus on the family website. I delivered the line to my wife as follows: "I realize that you chose to marry me by your own free will, and I would never desire for you stay married to me against your will.
I love you still and want the best for you. If you do not want to be married anymore, you are of course free to go". Now, it killed me inside to say that, I actually almost couldn't say it. Still can't believe I said it. Still get choked up remembering I said it. IT WAS'T HOW I FELT.
This tactic is to set them free. It worked for me, months later my wife mentioned that it removed a great burden and helped her to decide for the second time in her life that she wanted to be with me.

It is not that you detach yourself from your emotions, you just detach your emotions from your interactions with you wife.

You may lose a few battles, but win the "war". The real war as I see it is you wife connecting again emotionally with you.

Remember when you first got married, could you imagine not loving you wife or her not loving you? ? Can she now imagine loving you again? Feelings many times follow behavior. There is a quip which is "Behave you way to success".

Hope this helps.

[ May 16, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: looking both ways ]

LOOKING BOTH WAYS
Are you back with your wife?? what caused her to come back???
my wife does not really want to speak with me..
although she was suprised when I spoke to her earlier this week and was very calm!! she actually noticed!!
still she wants to split all assets and debts.. buy the house from me.. get me to move out and her to move back in!!
I guess what I'm looking for is direction in this war... looks like the lines are drawn in the sand, and she is onward!!
Is there a chance that shwe will still want to get back together... we have had some major fights over the last few months... I have no idea if she is spending tome with RAT MEAT...but the gut feeling is there. There has been no SF with us since Xmas... that is why I think OM is taking care of those needs.. therefore no need for MM..
direction please!!

marathonman:

"my wife does not really want to speak with me..
although she was suprised when I spoke to her earlier this week and was very calm!! she actually noticed!!"

This is something very good that you did for YOU. It's a small step, and you and she will backslide many more times in the fu2re, but rememeber what you did 2 evoke her reaction, and focus on those things. Postive stuff. Not negative stuff.

"still she wants to split all assets and debts.. buy the house from me.. get me to move out and her to move back in!!"

Great! Let her! You'll have 50% of the assets, plus 50% of the equity that's in the house from which 2 build your foundation of recovery!

"I guess what I'm looking for is direction in this war... looks like the lines are drawn in the sand, and she is onward!!"

Big deal! Direct your attention entirely inward, and 2 your kids. Forget about trying 2 understand your W's behavior, because that will make you crazy... I mean "crazier." I know how hard this is 2 do, because I haven't done a great job of it and I've had 16 months 2 work at it. But it IS possible.

"Is there a chance that shwe will still want to get back together..."

Sure, there's a chance. But forget about it for now. She's not your problem. YOU and your imagination are!

"we have had some major fights over the last few months..."

The only solution 2 these is 2 simply stop having them. Again, easier said than done, but very necessary.

"I have no idea if she is spending tome with RAT MEAT...but the gut feeling is there."

Get rid of that gut feeling, or you'll never get anywhere. Even if she's flaunting a R with RM or anybody else, this gut feeling is a PROBLEM that's hindering your ability 2 think clearly.

"There has been no SF with us since Xmas... that is why I think OM is taking care of those needs.. therefore no need for MM.."

I had thoughts like this 2, but in my case it wasn't possible that it was going on. That made it easier for me than it will be for you 2 realize that it was my imagination running away with my ability 2 think clearly. In truth, our sex life was suffering because of our problems, not because she was "getting it" elsewhere. It's not that important 2 her. And when I realized this, and where our real problems lie, it isn't that important 2 me, either. Also, it STILL doesn't matter a hill of beans whether she's having SF with someone else or not.

"direction please!!"

Okay: INWARD!

-ol' 2long (aka Qfwfq)

She never moved out. But, like your wife, in her mind it was over. No way did she want to continue the terrible way it was. She says she stayed because I started meeting the needs the other guy did. Basically, it seems I had win her back. I guess it isn't much different than me wanting to go back to a restaurant where I got bad food and sevice. Especially, when there is a great new restaurant in town! (moving to food analogies) What would the old restaurant need to do to get you to come back?

I am reminded of a old confusius joke regarding the war analogy. "War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left".
What did you think of the let them go thought? Actually, it makes you attractive to them if you show that you can move on. They can see you are not clinging to the terrible way it was.
I really can not give any help in the crystal ball department as to what she will decide going forward. Just remember the ticket may very well be behaving your way to creating emotions in her for you again. My first book I read was "The Five Love Lauguages" by Gary Chapman. I was awed after reading it.
What helped me, was determining how she experienced me, and thus how I could change her experience of me.

[ May 16, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: looking both ways ]

2LONG
Thanks..,
Question Why do you say that splitting the assets is good? Is the building a new foundation for me or for both me and my wife... if the later, how would that happen?
I have stopped lbing and don't plan on it at all when I see her..
have to get in touch this weekend to discuss splitting of assets and custody..hopefully I can stay level headed..

LOOKING BOTH WAYS
Thanks for the food analogy. Looks like it comes down to showing her the best MM possible. thanks for the insight

mm:

"Question Why do you say that splitting the assets is good? Is the building a new foundation for me or for both me and my wife... if the later, how would that happen?"

Good because she's adamant about doing it anyway, so you might as well let her figure out through experience whether it's what she wants or not, and good because you'll have "half, plus half the equity" in the house 2 "start over" from. I know it doesn't sound good from your position, but you probably would admit that just not being around her all the time has probably helped you level off, hasn't it?

"I have to get in touch this weekend to discuss splitting of assets and custody..hopefully I can stay level headed.."

You can, because you know that you need 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long.

Hello Marathonman and mortarman

I also need the Psyco stuff and work on it...

Care to post here so we can all benefit?

Good luck Marathonman U have substained a lot and I hope all you do from now on is for your own good no matter the outcome.

MM,

Sorry I havent gotten back before now. I have had duty since Wednesday night thru this Sunday, so I actually dont have a lot of time right now. But I dont want to keep you hanging.

You are getting some great advice, but let me get specific with what is going on now.

First off, you said my wife talked to me, but yours doesnt. Well, not really. First off, I had the kids and for the first good portion of our separation, most of it was spent with her calling because of the kids or to talk to the kids. Remember what Steve Harley told me? Those kids were my biggest asset (and are yours too!). Most of the time, we wouldnt hear from her for days. Since I had the kids, many times, I made pretexts of calling her while I was in Plan A, in order to relay some kid related stuff. But look. She didnt want to deal with me. She had chosen her screwed up life and was TRYING to make it work. My influence and presence did nothing but cause her problems. The OM was constantly pissed when she had to talk to me or when I came over or she came to see the kids. He KNEW that as long as there was contact, there was a chance she could be pulled back into reality.

Having the kids is your best asset. Sure she has them in your case. But guess what? That means you get to call to say goodnight to the girls, to come over and see them, etc. During this time, I have really gotten a lot closer to my kids. That should ne your first motivation. But remember I talked about earlier about psyops? No woman cannot help but notice and feel SOMETHING for someone that is treating their kids well. You want to get behind her walls? It will be through how you do with the kids.

Your trip to the hospital did not help. It shows her that she really needs to get away from you. MM...it is time to get control of this situation. Now that she has moved out, YOU control times of engagement with the "enemy" (war analogy), and where the engagements will happen. If she "attacks," you have the ability now to pull back to a safe position and regroup. Without the constant mess around you, you will now be able to THINK!

So, what to do now? First, she wants to split assets. Okay, do it. Like was said from others above, it cant hurt. My wife and I split everything as we moved her into her apartment. And now? Everything is back together...so the 50% I "lost" is now back under my roof. Use this opportunity in order to start setting your boundaries. You talked about how calm you were and she noticed. THIS IS PLAN A! It is the first engagement by you that you have won since I have been reading your posts. It was a small battle, but you won it nonetheless. The Leviathan has been slowed now. Sure it hasnt stopped, and it will take awhile to turn it around. But it has been slowed.

Live in your successes. When yo udo something right, enjoy it. Many times, when you do something right, you will know it by her angry reactions and/or disbelief. She expects you to fall apart. She expects you to go psycho. She expects you to be a major pain in her butt. When you dont do these things, she has NO ONE to fire at. And then she has to live with herself.

She will no longer be able to blame you for her daily or hourly feelings. She will begin to see that her problems are exactly that...HER PROBLEMS. It will take time. But she cannot look at herself until she gets her eyes and focus off of you.

One thing my wife has said several times in the last week is that she sat in her apartment so many times, especially near the end of the affair, and asked herself what she was doing. Where was her life? She had sought out an affair because I had left her lonely and afraid. And now that she got what she THOUGHT she wanted, she was now even MORE lonely and afraid. Reality began to seep back into her life.

We will get a more in depth plan together over the next week. But right now, concentrate on setting up your headquarters, setting up what will be your life for awhile. Get comfortable in it. Splurge a little on yourself. You will be here for awhile. It took my wife over 7 months of separation to fully come out of it and come home. Yours could take more, or it could take less.

Give everything you have to this now. As 2long said, turn inward. Your first mission is get yourself together, get your life together. Okay, you don’t have any long term goals yet because of this. You don’t know how this will turn out. So, leave the long term goals out of it for now. Don’t make any life altering changes yet. Concentrate on you.

It was like in basic training. We knew we had 13 weeks of hell to go through. But you couldn’t concentrate on that. It was too long and too hard. So you lived from one meal to the next at first. “Okay, I am going to make it to lunch.” Then after lunch, I would tell myself “Now I just have to make it to dinner.” It’s called survival. Did I do the things I needed to do in those days? Sure. But I was only able to do so by concentrating on what I could control and not worry about the rest.

In war, you cannot control what the enemy does. You can influence them, but ultimately, they do what they want to do. Your job is to take care of what you can. God will take care of your wife. He has promised this to you.

So, first mission is to stay calm like you did before. It will go a long way towards her beginning to drop her barriers. Second, if she wants to split things, then do so. Don’t be a push over and give up what you own or are entitled to. DO NOT BE DEFEATIST!

Remember, the odds of your wife “winning” this war are not good. The odds are in your favor. Trust them.

We will get into specific things you can do the first of this week and get your overall plan together. Get your head on straight now. Stay calm. Trust God. Trust the plan. And you will find things happen pretty much the way all of us have gone through this.

Maratonman…it is okay to vent here…to let out your frustrations, doubts, fears. But go away from here ready to do battle. Fake it until you make it. Fool yourself if you have to. But keep moving.

More later.

In His arms.

[ May 17, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Marathon Man:

I just want to say that I really empathize with your despair and sense of desperation. Although we can understand the wonderful recommendations and strategies we get on this site, it does not relieve the pain we feel. I like what Mortarman said about how he made it through Basic Training. That was very helpful. Also the analogy of trying to survive. It is very awful to be abandoned and rejected by the person you thought would be with you until "death do you part". I'm with you Marathon Man. Let's hang in there and not give up hope.

I'm trying to put this in God's hands and LET GO but it's hard.

2LONG
Thanks for the tip on the assets.. She is really set on getting on with her life..lets see what comes out my meeing with her on Monday. I have told her that in the past that I would let her have the house.. but the more I look at it..the more I think it would be best if I stayed where I am for now.. If I can get the girls 50% of the time.. they will have a place to call home.

MATHILDE
Sorry to see that the same thing happened to you.. when we get married, we never think about things like this happening..I should have seen this coming a few years ago when my wife starting talkin about OM as her best friend... while she was with me...the OM supposably called it off.. at that time it was accodring to my wife an EA.. only kissing... she has never admitted to an PA.. says it never happened..she cried her eyes out..guess that is a sign of a broken heart and that she loved him... this RAT MEAT is also married.. common law with a little girl.
I am just so glad that you do not have any children to worry about...
I hope things work out.. but look in your heart to see what is it you really want...There are a lot of good men who will treat you like gold..If you still love your husband, stick to the plan and fight for waht you belive is best.

MORTARMAN
I know that you are very busy... so thanks for taking the time to check in..
I will continue the best I can on remaining calm whenever I am around her and the girls.. showing the best dad imaginable..
The only problem is that my wife is limiting contact with the girls...says that she does not want me talking to them every day.. too much contact.. she does not want me calling before bed..since that would make them upset...she says that she will call every second day for me to talk to the girls...it has only been almost two weeks, but she seems to forget to call. This really hurts since up until she left, I was able to read stories to put the girls to sleep.
You mentioned that the odd of my wife winning the War is not good...how do I know that I am getting into her heart and how do I know when to give up the ghost?? I want to get this plan in gear and win the war... You do suggest that I dont move out! If I tell that to my wiife she will freak out..she is set on me moving out and her moving back in!!
I have no idea if she is back on with Om.. if she is it most likely has turned to a PA..but after talking to the psych.. she says if I have no facts .. drop it! That is why I can't control her.. she is going to do what she wants anyway!
if she is with RAT MEAT . she is gettting what she wants..all the phyical attention..doesn't that allow her to put me out of her mind?
The best to do is as TOO LONG stated...look inward and be the best I can be...build a better MM..and stay calm..
Please keep the advise coming.. I need it more than ever.
I am having a hard time in trusting God..that he will bring her back.. I am trying to pray.. but I'm looking for the signs from God that he is with me and that he is not going to let me down..
Thanks
I

MIMI1254
It is always so difficult to be dealt the cards our spouses have laid on the table..
Thanks for the words of understanding. The only thing to do is to stay focused and look at being a better person.. This has been a very emotionally trying period. especially in the last two weeks.. May 5 2003 will go down in my history as a epriod of new beginning..My wife still turned her back on me and continued on... It was the lowest point in my life and she was not by my side.. she was more interested in moving out..
I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether we like it or not.. our spousews have made decision and we have to leave it up to them to find their way home if it what is meant to be..Like Mortarman said.. the only one wqe can control is ourselves..so lets make the best of it.. I wasted 5 months...and spent that time bickering about something my wife said did not exist(EA with RAT MEAT).
The thing about putting in Gods hands..
I am having a hard time trusting in him.. but look at it this way..he is the only one who can make this happen the way it is suppse to.. He is my last resort.. so I do try to pray and am trying so hard to get that faith to leave it in his hands..
So Pray as hard as you can and be the best you can be..
Sorry to ramble.. just trying to say I understand where you are ..
Take care!
I

I was surfing the MB board and came acroos this link someone referenced. I thought of you and thought you might want to read the "developing a stategy" article.
It says the same things you probally already heard, but repetition works. Reading it 100 times wont' hurt. Well, it took a lot for it to sink in for me.
Take care.
http://rr.kimcm.dk/start.html

LOOKING BOTH WAYS
thanks so much for the link.. I read the first part and will sign on later and read the rest..
The girls spent yesterday afternoon with me as well as last nite.. all went well..on another note I am meeting my ww for breakfast. We have to sit down and discuss splitting the assets and custody of girls. It's a big thing for her to want to have a meal with me, since over the last few months it would have been impossible.
I have not raised my voice to her and have not mentioned RAT MEAT!
I has considered getting up early and drive over to her apt to se if the SH**HEAD was there but that would only make me feel worse.
Thanks again...every little bit of info helps...even though it has to be read a few timers to sink in..
Take care
I

MM,

Hope things went well this morning with your wife. Let me start now by getting to your post to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know that you are very busy... so thanks for taking the time to check in.. <hr /></blockquote>No problem.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will continue the best I can on remaining calm whenever I am around her and the girls.. showing the best dad imaginable.. <hr /></blockquote>Good, but I am reading some things into your posts that cause me concern. When you say "making the best MM you can," what do you mean? What is your motivation? Is it to get her back? I get the impression it is. In the beginning, it was for me also. And when I didn't get the desired results, I became depressed and wanting to quit. Making a better MM is not about your wife, or getting her back. It is about getting you straight, and then you will be ready for her, or someone else if it doesn't work out. You need to change your focus from your wife to yourself right now. It is okay to be "selfish" right now. Work on you FOR YOU. Be there for your kids FOR YOU AND THE KIDS. The SECONDARY results from this will be what they do to your wife.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The only problem is that my wife is limiting contact with the girls...says that she does not want me talking to them every day.. too much contact.. she does not want me calling before bed...since that would make them upset...she says that she will call every second day for me to talk to the girls...it has only been almost two weeks, but she seems to forget to call. This really hurts since up until she left, I was able to read stories to put the girls to sleep. <hr /></blockquote>Why are you allowing this? To placate her? If she is limiting your involvement and interaction with your children, document it and give it to your lawyer. It does not help you, your children, your divorce if it comes to that, or even your marriage, to let her run over you. Those are YOUR children also and you have every right to see them, talk to them and be with them. It is not up to her to judge whether your contact is making the kids upset. DO NOT LET THIS CONTINUE. Put your foot down now on this and do not give in. If it comes to divorce, the judge will look at how you allowed her to take the kids, and limit your time and he will perceive that you do not have a problem with this. YOU MUST FIGHT FOR YOUR CHILDREN. When it comes to them right now, your wife is not on your side. She is not supporting you as their father. When you do this, you don't have to get angry or argue. Don't play that game either. Just have her sit down and discuss and equitable custody deal, where both will have full access to the children. If she balks at this, let her know that you would like to settle this amicably, but if she is going to continue this way, you will have to seek legal means. Then give her the chance to re-consider. If she doesn't, FILE FOR CUSTODY IMMEDIATELY. It ALWAYS helps to be the first to file. I filed…and my marriage is back together. While you want your wife back, she may not come back, even with the odds against her. But the things you do now will decide if your life, and your children's lives, will be what they should be no matter what the outcome. She is going to try to bully you into submission, so she can get everything she THINKS she deserves. It is not an LB to stand up for what is right, as long as you do it in a cool, respectful, and firm manner. DO NOT WAIT ON THIS. She is moving fast right now. Get custody filed ASAP, either by a joint agreement between the two of you that is written out and notarized, or by having your lawyer file with the court. Once you approach this subject with your wife, if she balks, DO NOT WAIT. That conversation, if she doesn't agree to your terms, will most likely push her to immediately filing for custody herself. You MUST beat her to the punch on that. I filed first, even while working on the marriage. She was very upset for awhile, but she soon realized that I was serious, and that my relationship with my children was non-negotiable. That I was willing to split assets, and to be a "doormat" as I tried to save the marriage, but my relationship with my children was not on the negotiating table. More on this soon!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You mentioned that the odds of my wife winning the War is not good...how do I know that I am getting into her heart and how do I know when to give up the ghost?? <hr /></blockquote>You will know. But stop looking. The best way to do this? Write a daily journal. Tell what happened in it, what you did and said to her and just for yourself. Write down YOUR perceptions of her reactions and conversations. Then periodically, go back and read them. See how she changes, how she flops like a fish out of water. Watch her inconsistency. Watch yourself get stronger. As you are able to look back, you will see the changes it is kind of like the stock market. Daily, that graph goes up and down. But over the long haul, the trend is upward. That is how you will see it. But if you are caught in the daily ups and downs, you will not see the improvement. And you will miss out on your opportunities to move it forward.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I want to get this plan in gear and win the war... <hr /></blockquote>Good! Your first mission is get control of the kid situation. Also, get yourself set legally. See a lawyer and draw up the paperwork for divorce. Have it ready and documented. That way, if it comes to the point, you will be able to fire quickly, if need be. I was the first to file for custody, and for divorce. I didn't move it forward, although I was close a few times. But the paperwork was filed. That way, she would be on the defensive throughout the process…she would have to respond to my charges. I know you want to save your marriage. By being strong, it will help in the end. Trust me on this one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You do suggest that I dont move out! If I tell that to my wife she will freak out...she is set on me moving out and her moving back in!! <hr /></blockquote>She will freak out? So what? She is ALREADY freaking out. Look, standing up for yourself and your rights is not an LB. Sure she will have a negative reaction to it, especially if you do it in an angry, mean or vindictful way. But I would guess at this point (as my wife did early on) that she has lost a lot of respect for you. How you handle this, and handle your kids will go a long way toward regaining some of that respect. She cannot fall in love with someone she does not respect.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have no idea if she is back on with Om.. if she is it most likely has turned to a PA...but after talking to the psych…she says if I have no facts .. drop it! <hr /></blockquote>Okay, here I might get flamed by your psych, or from others here. Look at WATS rules One of them is that all affair research is good…that includes snooping. At this point, she has moved out it is time to document her affair. If you cant afford a PI, buy some beer for some friends and have them stake her out. Get pictures of them together. Get a log of their interactions, times, places, etc. Even though she has moved out, most states still recognize her as still being married. Unless you have a separation agreement, your wife is still bound by her marital contract. Where do you live? We are a fault state in Virginia, which makes filing for divorce so much easier because adultery is against the law. No matter whether you are separated or not (no legal separations here). It is time to get you act straight. I have an e-book I can send you that will outline what you need to do. Of course, all of these actions must be done without her knowing, if you want to save the marriage. This is insurance for you should things continue to go badly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />That is why I can't control her.. she is going to do what she wants anyway! if she is with RAT MEAT . she is gettting what she wants..all the phyical attention..doesn't that allow her to put me out of her mind? <hr /></blockquote>YOU WILL NOT BE OUT OF HER MIND! That is exactly what she is TRYING to do. That is why she is limiting contact for you with the kids…so she doesn't have to see you or hear your voice. She needs that to make her fantasy world work. You cannot control her. But in a relationship, if one changes, all others have to change also. Concentrate on controlling YOU!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The best to do is as TOO LONG stated...look inward and be the best I can be...build a better MM...and stay calm.. <hr /></blockquote>Like I said in the beginning, make sure you are doing this for yourself, not for her. When you do this, you will then calm down. And she will notice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please keep the advise coming.. I need it more than ever. I am having a hard time in trusting God...that he will bring her back.. I am trying to pray.. but I'm looking for the signs from God that he is with me and that he is not going to let me down. <hr /></blockquote>My man, it is time to get into Bible study, to get back into the Word. I had left church right after I found out about this in April 2002. I stopped reading my Bible. I stopped praying. In November, I went back to church. I attended a divorce Care group. I read and studied on relationships, marriages, etc. I got back into studying the Bible (a great thing you can do right now is something my friend showed me…Go to Psalms and study every passage that is numbered with the same last digit of today's date…like today is the 19th, so study Psalm 9, 19, 29, etc.). Get books on God's promises study them everyday. Commit them to memory, so when you are tempted with despair, you can have the tools to fight that. Study Hebrews 10 also. This is what is going to happen to your wife, unfortunately. If your wife is saved, God is not going to let her continue in her rebellious ways. Hebrews 10 outlines this. He promises that He will repay, and justice is His. Look back on your life and see where He has been there for you. That is where your trust must spring from. So that, even though you might see or feel Him today, you can know that He is still in control. MM, this is the biggest area you CAN work on for you right now. If you read my early posts here, you will see that in my prayer life, I got an answer from God concerning my wife. And as soon as I adhered to it, the walls began falling down and my wife and I headed for reconciliation. The three things were 1. Don't worry about or try to control Mrs. Mortarman…God has her; 2. Get back to my First Love (Jesus); and 3. Die for your wife. Dying doesn't mean killing yourself. It means being her husband. It means doing the right thing always, no matter what she does. It means understanding that YOU must lead HER out of this, not with words…but with actions. Many times on a battlefield, when a unit is being crushed, it is the leader who charges forward that helps rally the men. Did he yell at them and tell them to get with it? No. He led by example. You must treat your wife and love your wife as Christ loves and treats all of us (read Ephesians). Look at what our roles are to be as spelled out by the Bible. The Bible talks about women submitting (I WILL get flamed from some of you women out there!). Submission is not slavery. It is a woman understanding that her husband is held accountable and responsible for the family and the wife by God. The wife is not held to this accountability. We are responsible in God's eyes for the upbringing of our children.

It is funny. The Bible NEVER calls for a wife to love her husband. She is to submit, to respect him, etc. but it never commands her to love us. The Bible commands you to love your wife, as Christ loves us. What kind of love is that? God's love. Can you love your wife like Christ loves us? Not on your own. Let Christ love her through you. Let Him take over. Then watch what happens. Remember, when you married, there were three people joined there…you, your wife, and Christ. Your wife is not, in the end, rejecting you…she is rejecting Christ. But He still loves her, and so do you. He still wants to redeem her, and so do you. But guess what? You don't have the power to do it. So let Him.

I hope some of this has helped. As the week goes on, we will get more indepth on your strategy on moving forward. Take care of the kids situation, get you spiritual plan together (see your pastor…he can help a lot). Once you do this, we can then begin.

In His arms

MORTARMAN
A funny thing happened yesterday.. We both met for breakfast...We talked about our finances and the girls. Last week she was trying to limit contact now she is willing for me to have them 50% of the time. I still have to decide if I am going to keep the house or let her have it.. the more I think about it, the more I want to stay.
She ended up staying with the girls for lunch and spent some time working in the garden.
Last night he called again to discuss which night the girls will be with me (again maybe so she can paln a night with RAT MEAT)...but thats okay.. she is still talking to me.. she has no problem with me calling the girls to say hi!. Seems like she is starting to drop the walls a little...
You are so right about me working on myself.. Now is the time for me to get with it and get ready to move on... I have to be the best person I can be for me.. I guess being selfish is not that bad after all..
I still have to talk to my lawyer to plan what to do... I'm not so sure that filing for divorce is the right thing to do... why do you say it is???
is it to help her wake up to what she may be losing???
On the Praying note...I have to let God take care of her...I know he will.. by praying for guidance and support.. that will bring me closer to him and allow all the healing to start..I have to love her as Jesus loves us..to forgive and know healing can occur..
Thanks for being there...you have been a good friend.. AS it stands. she is still gone and no signs of ever wanting to reconcile.. but as you said.. forget about that right now and work on me!!
I

MM-

I just got a bit worried about what you might 'give' to her in your plan a behavior, with some boundaries.

In my plan A, I let my ws take a few things from the home, and on loan even, and he will not give them back right now.

I am so sick of his evil - holding things over my head behavior. I am so mad at him for acting the way he does. Espceially the photo albums... I have heard lots of people do nasty things like this... like forgetting that these things were loaned, etc.

I would advise you not to give ws anything of yours- except that which you are ok with losing, if it comes to photos, make copies first!

Sorry to sound down or negative, just a warning about ws behavior.

Hope to you,

Honey

HONEY
All the stuff she took was taken while I was in
hospital and totally defenseless..she had a crowd of people at the house taking and moving..
I can only hope that when we go to mediation this week that she gives some of the stuff back..
Most of the stuff can eventually be replaced and if she wants to be petty..let her. BUt it will be a big suprise when I tell her I am keeping the house.. something she wanted all along..too bad
RAT MEAT wont be able to move in with her as she hoped..
I guess I'm getting off key here and have been told to drop talk about her OM..
Thanks for the tip!
I

mm:

"All the stuff she took was taken while I was in
hospital and totally defenseless..she had a crowd of people at the house taking and moving.."

What a bunch of buzzards!!!

Sorry. I just got a bit carried away there for a minute... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If it's possible, you "sound" like you're better off not being around her daily. How do you feel?

Take care,
-2long

2LONG
I actually have been feeling a little better..
I do miss her and I do love her (I THINK)..
But this is going to be a very long process if there is going to be any hope of reconciliation..
Just got back from the Psych...she tells me that ther is absolutely no hope.. and to get on with my life...she says that myWW has Emotional feelings for someone else..and she is not coming back..live with it and acept it..
I dont feel angry toward her.. just feelings of rejection. I see where I went wrong with her..and am sorry.. never meant to hurt her..but I cannot change the past..
The thing as Mortarman has told me is get a better person for me andthe girls..and most of all pray..all will eventually fall into place..
Thanks 2Long you have been a good friend as well..
good to have you around...
and yes you are right.. what a bunch of buzzards..
she was so concerned that I was going to leave the hospital the night I went in.. not for me.. but for me getting in the way of her moving...
AGGGGHHH!!
I

Marathonman:

Please, please do not buy what your counselor is saying. Your WS is in the throes of an addiction. So many nonMB therapists do not understand this process. I saw a therapist that said the same thing. Then, after working with Steve Harley, I got a totally different perspective. That therapist will steer you in the wrong direction. Either help the therapist understand MB principles, which I eventually did with my therapist and he now agrees with me regarding the addictive process of affairs or either get a new therapist. Your WS in a FOG, abducted by an alien as WAT says. Steve H. said that the feeling of love is highly variable and changeable and once the love was there in the past it can be rekindled. She feels "in love" with the OM because he is meeting most of her EN right now but once he begins to LB and you have opportunity to meet those needs again,she can be in love with you again. It is too early in this process for you to begin giving up.

mm:

I agree with mimi. Your psych is worse than useless! Don't listen 2 that crap!

-2long

MIMI/2LONG
Thanks guys..What I'm trying to do with thepsych is fix me and get rid of the anger I have built up in me.. she says it comes from my childhood!!
Although she has told me that the marriage is over (based on what my wife has said in session), I still beive that there is hope..
Why do I choose to go to thearpist that sare divored.. she does no seem to be a man hater. but she is not wearing a ring( has a son).
Tomorrow we go to mediation and I will tell my wife that I'm not leaving the house. It's so strange that a week ago she was so mean to me and now she is starting to be more nice.
Is she setting me up?? trying to put some sugar on it to make me drop my guard.
looking back over the last 7-8 month...it looked like she knew what she was doing and trying to get her ducks in a row before she dropped the bomb on me..
whats up with her??
anyway, just venting here.. comments and direction please!!
I

MM:

I continue to have concerns about your therapist. When you are paying a therapist, he/she should be supportive of your needs and your position. The point of therapy is to relieve/cure your stress, anxiety and depression. It does not seem to be enough to know that the therapist is not a man-hater.

MM, it's your choice. I just know how much my therapist is helping me. He is trying to fully understand MY NEEDS and MY POSITION, being supportive of me. That's been so helpful to me right now. I'm wishing that kind of therapeutic relationship for you. We cannot face all of this pain ALONE. It's tremendous and devastating.

MM,

First off, I hope things go well today. An answer to a question you asked about is your wife being nice right now to set you up. Well, all I have to say is YES! Be careful. If she is nice, accept it...but do not read into it. Right now she is still running the other way. She has slowed now because she has moved out (and found a safe place to hide) and you are no longer pursuing her. Now she will try to consolidate her fantasy world and try to put it into order. If she has to be nice to you, she will now. She will try to be "adult" about all of this. She will try to get along for the "sake of the kids." But inside, that is not her intent.

First off, if she was being "adult" about this and not acting like a kid, she would be home working on her marriage. Instead, she is acting like an 18 year old selfish kid. So, dont buy into the being adults argument. Stay in your lane. You know what is right

Now, with that said, do not be harsh, or give disrespectful judgments. She is wrong...everyone but her knows that. But telling her that is not going to help you right now. As Steve Harley told me..."Do you want ot be right, or do you want to be married?" The turth has a nasty habit of coming out in the end. It doesnt need your help. But, anything from you right now will not be accepted. So no matter how true your words are, she will reject them. Get used to this because this phase will last a little while.

You are in for the ride of your life. As others said, being alone now is going to help you. The "war" is now on. Which means, now that it has all started, then the end gets nearer every day. You asked if I was condoning filing for divorce right now. No. You are fighting for your marriage right now. What I was talking about was getting everything drawn up and ready, should things get worse and it look like she is going to file. You dont want to be playing catch up. It will actually help you emotionally to know your rights and strategy that your lawyer will take if it comes to that It will be one less worry on your mind. dont make my mistake by letting your wife know about this. Just see your lawyer, have him/her draw up custody paperwork, and draw up divorce paperwork, and then hold onto them. When the time comes, then you can just make a phonecall, and he can file them that day. It is called being prepared. Once you have that prepared, then you can concentrate on everything in confidence, knowing that even if it goes bad, you know how it will all turn out.

It is good you are staying in the house. Try to keep it the same as possible, for your kids...and for your wife when she comes over. Remember what I said about psyops? Pictures of good times, HER house looking like she had it, etc will bring out feelings in her for the "better" days. she wont let you know she has those. sShe will even try to deny them to herself for awhile. But each interaction with her is like slowly turning the heat up on the frog in the pan. Eventually, the "awakening" will happen.

Yo usee, once I started getting with the program, had my legal ducks in a row, started improving myself...strange things started to happen. At first, she was relieved not to hear from my whiney butt anymore But a few weeks later, the silence was deafening to her. So, she began to call more, wanting to talk to the kids...but inevitably trying to get me into a casual conversation. Since I was in Plan B at the time, I would not allow it. This just made her more uncomfortable. all of the changes I made to myself in Plan A...all of the things I did, all of the psyops I had done had built up in her subconscious. So, when I finally went to Plan B for good, the silence from me was filled with memories, lost hopes, and the OM trying to meet needs that he couldnt possibly meet. And so a woman who had left and started an affair because she was lonely and afraid, was now more lonely and afraid than she was before. And she had gotten everything she had thought she wanted (me gone, alone with OM, her own place, no more interaction with me, half the stuff split with her, etc). It was at the point of everything being built up, and then her left alone with OM and all of our memories and my Plan A work, that she woke up and realized (in my wife's words)..."what am I doing?" She was sitting alone in her apartment one night. I had just brought her dinner the day before, because I had gone back to Plan A when she started interacting with me and showing me she might want to reconcile. The OM was out of town. My wife had previously been sick for a week, and I stayed home from work and nursed her everyday. I brought her dinner. When I went back to Plan A, I put flowers in her apartment constantly (this pissed off the OM...kind of worked twofold <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I was on a full court press.

The result? Okay, we had gone from D-Day with me being whiney, angry, and pursuing. To Plan A, where she had moved out, but I continued to try to work on me and she began to notice. I kept engaging her, especially in family stuff. I did little things, like bringing Thanksgiving dinner to her with the kids at her work. All little things that began to build. Then, when I was sure I had built up enough "chits" and it was evident that she was firmly implanted on the fence (cake eating), I went to Plan B in December. This pushed her off at first...and right into the arms of the OM. She was angry and tore off to be with him...she even began to counter file for divorce and went off to Florida to be with him and his family right before Christmas. Things seemed to be worse than ever…and inside, I had all but given up.

But little did I know that the plan worked! All I had done before to improve me, the psyops, the showing that I was fully capable of being Dad with or without her, all of it…all of it had built up in her. When I pulled it all out from under her, all she had left was memories…and the OM. At this point, the OM was no longer fantasy man. He began to have warts. And the life she had before, with me and her family, began to look like it was slipping away.

So, when the full court press went back on with Plan A in January, the OM was all but done for. It still took three more months to get her home. But, everyone involved could see the writing on the wall. She was going to come home. He was never going to be able to be what she needed. All my actions with the flowers, dinners, taking care of her when she was sick, just solidified what she was feeling in her heart again. "What am I doing?" "I have everything I thought I wanted…and I still feel lonely." She began to understand again why she missed me…why she HAD to talk to me, to be with me. It angered the OM that she talked to me so much there at the end. But even he could see that it was me she wanted to talk to, to be with.

What I am saying MM is this is a process. You must go to Baghdad to get home. You have finally taken off on that journey this week. It will be rough, and some times you will get discouraged. That is why I say to get your plan together now. Do not let others talk you out of this. Stay on plan, and come here to vent, for support, or help. When it is time, then you will go to Plan B…or later Plan D if things don't work out. In many ways, things are going to be a lot more painful for your wife than they are for you over this. She is fighting the odds…she is fighting God…she is fighting even human nature in these things. In order for her to make it away from you, it will cause her a lot of pain. Let her do it.

In the end, she may be surprised to be back home with her family and you…and wonder what happened.

In His arms.

[ May 21, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

MORTARMAN
Thanks again for the inspiration.. I have no intent of totally giving up on my wife and family.
AS Kily has said in the past.. my WW is saying the things that she said..but one thing concerns me.. While I was in theb hospital,my ww came in and basically said that "I have no guilt for what you did..and this does not change anything, I am still leaving you!!"
This is fog talk right??
I am putting my wife in Gods hands and leaving it to him to bring her home..I will continue to Plan A the best I can.. no LBS no talk of RAT MEAT...just be civil...She can try to be nice in the hopes of buttering me up .. but it wont work.. evrything 50/50..as for the house she already broke up the family and destoyed my heart.. she is not getting the house...if I can make things work I'll keep it!!
Not sure what I can do to bring her flowers or a meal.. that would seem too much like me pleading.. and we don't want that right...
so please tell me .. what can I do to make those deposits in the ole love bank without her realizing what i'm doing???
Thanks
I

Marathon Man:

Read MortarMan's last post to you again very carefully. He has given you some wonderful advice.

MortarM:

I don't want to butt into MM's topic but I just want to tell you how helpful you are being with me. I hope you will listen MARATHON because MORTAR's experience with his WS is happening with me. I have been using MORTAR's approach and thought process and it has been helpful.

I'm doing well modified PLAN B after doing a wonderful PLAN A. WS is struggling to fix up his fantasy world in his condo, the life he thought that he wanted. I've made all these PLAN A changes, have refused to fall into his traps to get me to LB and WOW is he frustrated. I think fantasyland is not looking so wonderful.

I say out loud to him that I'm working on being the most beautiful person that I can be, especially SPIRITUALLY. It's true though. I'm trusting in the LORD and staying away from the evil spirits that have caught my WS. He is becoming confused by his new attraction to me which had been gone for the last few years.

When I strictly followed the advice of the MB veterans during my PLAN A, I did a lot better. Read my old posts in January indicating how I was struggling. I goofed when I left the board and became controlled by my WS. Now I'm getting back in control.

MortarMan:
If you have time, please read about my experience in URGENT HELP NEEDED. I would love to obtain your feedback and assistance. You have excellent insight.

MORTARMAN
Going to Mediation this morning..dropped off my oldest D after shoopping for a Bday present for one of her friends..I think I may have done a double wammy LB .. first I rubbed my ww wife arm.. just showing affection ... her respose... " a snide " DON'T TOUCH ME".. I responded with "I'm sorry I'll leave that for you know who..." she did not say anything to that.
I am trying to continue with plan A for now..and trying to be the best MM for MMand the girls. Once I bring the info to my lawyer from the meeting today ,I will ask to proceed with paperwork for a D..
I know that it has only been a few weeks since she left.. but it has been a seperation since New years.. she has no feelings and is showing no sign of being sorry for what she has done...
How Long do I let this drag on and how long do I hop... I look in her eyes and see that it's over..
when do I throw in the towel? the pain is just too much.. I know that the odds for her and RAT MEAT are slim.. but it kills me inside to think that she may be into a PA with him, although I have no evidence.. Mortarman, I am in Canada and in my province there is no fault divorce.. she can be Scr**ing ten guys a day and there is nothing I can do about it! I have read Hebrews 10 a few times .. what is it trying to say.. How can I believe that God is going to lead her back?

MM I have been following your posts for quite some time now and In my opinion you have done everything you could to save your marriage unfortunately your WW has not responded to it. My X and I seperated for 8 months and at times I thought it was going to work but in the end I just couldn't take the uncertainty in my life anymore it was effecting me and my children so I ended up filing for the D and as painfull as it was at first when I look back at it now it was the best thing not only for me but for my children because we could start making a new life for ourselves again.
God Be with you

Carl

MM,

I've been reading your story for awhile.

Not to throw a wrench into this because Mortarman has been given you some good advice but . . . <blockquote>quote:<hr />It is good you are staying in the house. Try to keep it the same as possible, for your kids...and for your wife when she comes over. Remember what I said about psyops? Pictures of good times, HER house looking like she had it, etc will bring out feelings in her for the "better" days. she wont let you know she has those. <hr /></blockquote>She may beleive that everything will stay the same -- that she's so much a part of your life NOTHING that she contributed you will ever change ... in her mind she is that valuable to you and will always be.

sort of like "You never change anything because your pining for her and she was so good for you that even if she moves on you'll always be there, she'll always have a place."

Changing a few things may set up her ire and sense of territory. This is afterall "HER HOUSE" too....

I'm not saying change what Mortarman is telling you -- because what I said to do could also go the other way in getting her to want to take the house from you ... but realize that a sense of territory is also important to women and that usually applies to the house

(It may not have happened in your home but many women just come all undone when MIL comes over and starts rearranging the house -- territory)

just something to keep in mind

way2

Well here I go.. just got back from Mediation..
Once I told her that I want to keep the house.. she lost it!! and got very upset.. I know how much the home means to her and how much she wants to be back..but I want a house as well..During this session she also said that there was no way she was coming back and that it is definitely over. so here I am..at a very serious crossroads..
this is the end.. no use trying to save and get her back..I mentioned to her about RAT MEAT andshe said that she was not seeing him... still a BIG LIE.. since needs someone to fill those needs and she is neglecting me fully..maybe if I had told her this morning that she could have the house, she would have begun to be a little more inviting.. looks klike I just hammered the last nail in the hopes of getting my marriage back in gear..I don't want to sound hopeless.. but the writing is now clearly on the wall..
I will contactc my lawyer to see what is the best way to proceed.
Comments!!

mm:

Please reread Mortarman's post 2 you at least a hundred eleventy seven more times. Okay?

Good. Now, you have NOT nailed the last nail in your hopes. By insisting on keeping the house, you have done a LOT 2 lay the foundation work 2 save your M and family. Stop thinking otherwise. Your W is tweaked because her "plan" isn't going 2 work. Her plan has 2 be 2 get any reminders of her life with you out of her head, so she won't feel guilt for what she's done (she'll be ignoring her responsibilities). By keeping the house, you've blown her plan 2 smithereens.

Good for you, mm. Now all we have 2 do is get you 2 shut up already about the OM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

MM,

Sorry you have to go through this...but her reaction is to be as expected. What else did you think she would do? Remember what I said...it will be awhile until you notice any appreciable change in her. Stick to your guns. She does not want you right now. We all know that. The fog will continue to make her believe this. Let this go for now. Concentrate on getting your life together and making changes you know you need to do for yourself. Then, when she is ready, you will be ready also.

On the divorce issue, have your attorney get things ready. Get everything lined up. But do not file yet. It is not time yet. If she goes to file, then you file immediately. until then, hold this back.

The house issue is a good boundary. Do not give in. As Way2 stated, it is her territory and she wants it back. The problem is she forfeited her right to be there when she walked out. She knows the way to get it back. Later, she will realize this. Except in mediation, try not to get into arguments about this. Treat this as a matter of fact.

What Way2 talked about is very true, not only with the house, but with all other psyops as well. There is a fine line you must balance. Part must be enticement, part must be "pain." What I mean by this is that you must balance (using the house as an example) enticing her, which would be her seeing the house and her things that might still be there. It will create a sense of wanting. At the same time, making some noticable changes to the house will create "pain," as she sees "her" house moving on without her. And this goes for everything else.

While in Plan A, especially in this early stage, your are about creating boundaries. She knows you are weak right now, and she is pressing to get everythign she can while you are defenseless. Establish lines that you will not allow her to cross. You have a good start with the house. When you touched her arm, she recoiled. This is not the time for physical or emotional connections. Touching, hugging, flowers, etc will not work right now. She is in take mode, and until her advance is checked, all the flowers in the world will not help.

Right now, the best thing in Plan A for you (and her) is for you to establish boundaries, and to start working on you. Leave her alone. She is a long way from "pulling her head out." The opportunity will come later for you to do active things to promote love. Right now, if I had to put it in one sentecnce, you have to prove her wrong. Prove her wrong about the person she has created in her mind, whether it has been true or not. Prove her wrong about how you will react to all of this. She will be creating you as the villain...and when you turn out not to be as she expected, she will become very angry and frustrated (as Mimi talked about). As she gets frustrated, you will gain strength from this. And that will frustrate her all the more. She will see the changes in you, and wonder what is going on (a new girlfriend?). She will see that you arent performing for her...that you really have changed in many ways. And those changes appear to be permanent. And she will get more angry and frustrated. And when you dont respond to that anger and frustration, she will feel hopelessly lost in the world she has created.

Once she reaches that point, it is THEN that you will have your opportunity to influence make the efforts to get her home. But MM...that is a long way off. You have a lot of work to do. Once she reaches the point of hopelessness, she will then try to seek out answers. Only then will she even attempt to come out of the fog.

On the issue of God's promises, remember what I said? Get one of those books that list all of God's promises. Read it daily. They are promises from God Himself! Do you think He didnt mean them? That you and your wife are the exception? If your wife is saved, then He has promised to never leave her or forsake her In Hebrews 10, it talks about rebellion. Only a saved person can rebel. God is very clear in this passage that He will not let His children stay in rebellion. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." MM...that is your wife. She is a child, rebelling against her father. He will not let that go on long, without bringing out the belt for a spanking. Why does He do that? Because He loves your wife too much to let her continue. She may think she is fighting to get away from you, but she is actually fighting Christ. You think she will "win" that battle? Eventually, if she stays in rebellion, you may have to take her to the church and she may have to be declared spiritually dead so that you can move on (1 Corinthians 7, I believe). But for now, let God have her. He promised to take care of her. He promised to discipline those that rebel against Him. The question is...do you believe His promises?

I think I will post later this week on this subject (give it it's own thread). Once I got back into the Word in November and really delved into this, it made all the difference in the world. I was able then to see god working on my wife. I could see her discomfort. I could then sit back, and almost in some "sick" way, watch with some enjoyment as my wife was put through the uncomfortable and painful process of discipline from God. Justice was prevaling.

MM...you sound stronger today. But do not be defeatist. The war has just started. You havent even improved one thing for you yet. There are many more battles to fight. Let God fight them with your wife. You get your act straight. Fix and change the things that you know you need to in order to be a better husband to your wife, or some future wife. Do that now, so you will be ready.

The first thing is get your legal things set. while doing that, I want you to make a list of the things that you KNOW you need to change about yourself. Then come back here, and let's see if we can get a plan on how to change them.

Everything is going as expected so far.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for the advise..but the more I think about it.. the more I believe that she shouldbe in the house.. why.. because I when I look at it..I don't think I can afford it!! and neither will she when it comes out in the wash...
By moving out, it would give me a freash start with little debt..she will buy me out.. This morning she was so upset when I told her that I'm keeping the house. It surely came accross as a major LB and the last thing I need is for her to come back and not let me contact the girls.
If I was to give her the house and we are meant to be together wouldn't she come back reardlaess of where I am??

Marathon Man:

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Read Mortarman's posts again and again. Do exactly as he says. Do not allow yourself to be controlled and manipulated by your WS. She is in a FOG and just looking out for her own best interests. I have been where you are Marathon and did not listen to the warnings of veterans here.

Do exactly what Mortarman says. Keep the house! It's really important to gain her respect. That will make you more loveable.

Listen to this world. Don't get caught up in hers. Its an alien existence.

Mimi,

Ditto here!

MM,

If it is a financial strain, think about what options you have to keep it. At least for the next year. You want to make no big moves or changes right now. Anything other than financial strain, I would not even entertain getting rid of the house. And certainly, do not let your wife have it and you move out. If you have to, sell it.

This is a battle that is going to take awhile. And it is going to hurt, even financially. If you need a second job to help out, get one. you have more time on your hands now anyway.

If she is in mediation with you, one of you will have to be out of there, with the other buying the one out who stays. Make her buy you out. This will addthe needed pressure to her. Added to that, as she writes that check to you, she will know that it goes to a house she no longer owns or lives in.

This is not an LB! Draw your boundaries right now. That is all you can do in regards to her. Get your list together of things you need to work on. And we will start with that.

You are beginning to set boundaries. Do not let her cross them. You dont need to be mean or vindictful. Just state your case, and move off of it. After the dust settles in a couple of weeks, we can begin some small psyops to begin helping her see the light. But again, you cannot change her. You are changing yourself. We just need to make that when it comes to your wife, you present the best possible MM to her everytime she sees you. But for now, you have to earn her respect. Rolling over and giving in just aint going to do it.

In His Arms.

MORTARMAN
I am really thinking about letting her buy me out.. the financial strain is going to be very hard for her...she does not know how hard!!
By me moving into an apartment it will distance us and at the same time she agrees for at least six months we will alternate weeks with the girls.
I know that I cannot afford the house alone and it will be a burden.. being alone will also be difficult when the girls are not around.
The only left for me to do is to continue to work on myself for me and the girls..leave my wife in Gods hands and see what happens..
Now what do I need to change about me:
1) angry outbursts/arguing
2) Low self esteem/confidence
3) Needy/ clingy
that is a start.. me in a nutshell
the angry thing is what got me in trouble with my wife..wht she left..I was not filling those ENs..
commnets and direction please!

Please read MORTARMAN's last post to you again about THE HOUSE. Please listen.

I'm confused... If she buys me out then the house would be hers and she will have the added financial strain..If I stay she will just buy another house somewhere else..she has already said that.
If she gets back in the house and after paying me a settlement and realizes that it is hard wouldn't she not come looking for help??

THe main thing right now is to do what is BEST FOR YOU . Don't make your decision based on what might happen in the future. Don't worry about what she says that she is going to do-like buying a house somewhere else. Let her go ahead and do that but there's no guarantee that she will. Also, I've learned that there are no guarantees about the future. Unfortunately, she may have figured out a way not to be in a financial strain. Who knows what those aliens have cooked up? I know all what your WS is doing and saying is unbelievable to you. WSes have been abducted by aliens. They talk in babble. They are not reasonable. We have to be the level-headed, sane ones as hard as it is.

Work on YOUR PLAN. I promise you she will notice and it will BLOW HER MIND.

[ May 23, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

mm:

Even if you weren't dealing with your M problems, there's simple math at play here.

*Currently, you're paying for 2 places, the house and the apartment (since you are still M'd, this is a strain on BOTH your financial sitches).

*If she buys you out and you get an apartment, you'll have THREE places 2 pay for for a while. Think about it. Security deposits, first and last month's rent, phone, cable TV for the tykes. Things like that can put you in2 a debt sitch so fast it'll make your head spin. I know firsthand. Since the fire at our house a year and a half ago, we've moved 6 times. each place we rented needed deposits and cleaning after we left. The insurance paid for most everything, but only after the fact (we're still waiting 2 be reimbursed for a 6K deposit we put on a house we moved out of over a year ago!. It doesn't matter that, on PAPER, you're not spending any more than you otherwise would. Cash flow.

*If you stay in the house and she buys another one, will she be able 2 qualify for the loan? I doubt it, unless she has a really good job. You're still M'd, so unless you've NEVER been on the title of your present house or paid any of the down or payments, she won't likely be able 2 qualify for a second home.

Keeping the house is not being mean. It's not LBing. It's the most stability you can offer your family in this trying time. You all need all the stability you can get right now, though she doesn't think so (because she doesn't WANT 2 think like you're a family).

Stay put. Stay strong. Work overtime if you have 2. But even if you can't make the payments, it takes a while for the bank 2 foreclose on you. I'm not suggesting you default, but you do have more time than you think.

Please stay home. Take care,
-2long

MIMI/2LONG
Thanks to you both for posting...Mimi.. where do these aliens come from and why dont they just leave us alone..I will do what I feel is best once I talk to my lawyer and banker.
I cannot control what she is doing you are so right on that..so concentrate on me..
2LONG.. this is so scary since I'm playingwith my future here.. The main reason why I want to kewep the house is to entice her back into the marriage..but as I write this..whty am I trying yto bribe her into doing that.. she has to want me and not the house. In the end it really does not matter who is where, only that she sees a different MM and would like a new life with me..
Please tell me I'm making sense!!

YEA! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!

If you let her have the house, there is no guarantee that she will come back. I've learned the hard way about that type of bargaining in my mind.

Ultimately, we can only control ourselves.

Try reading CODEPENDENT NO MORE. It teaches how to respond to a partner who is in an addiction. That's what is going on with our WSes. Until they decide not to take the drug offered by the A, we are POWERLESS in our effect over them.

I gave my WS the book SURVIVING AN AFFAIR which he still has by the way. He said "None of this applies to me." What does that tell you about their thinking?

MIMI
Guess what.. got a few t-shirts for that statement as well.. any books or articles which I gave to my WW was met with the response of .. "that does not apply to Me"... go figure.. there really is a script that is followed.
She has said for the past two months that the A (which was only kissing- so she says)..is over..RAT MEAT called it off and decided to stay with his wife and kids..I have spoken to a friend who heard about the OM and was told he had been Scr**ing around with another woman besides my wife.. thus the name RAT MEAT is very fitting.
With regards to my wife and her statements that she is not involved with him.. I dont want to believe ut but will have to. A or no A she is still gone and has no intention to reconcile.
Like you said I can only control myself and not her... let God have her and hope that she seesout of the fog..
I will try to save this marriage now but from a distance.
Thanks

Now that I am trying to let go.. words from My WW are getting more hasrh. She wants things settled asap so she can get on with her lifwe..
After a conversation with her and a few LBs about OM..she tols me that if I dont let her buy the house from me she will just buy another house somehwhere else..I dont want to sound defeatest but if I dont forget about her and just accept that the marriage is over.. I am going to end up in the hospital again.. this I do not want.. When do I decide that its time to stop trying?? I feel so sad that the marriage is over and sorry for my 2 daughters. They are with me for the night and things went just fine. My oldest was sitting at the kitchen table yesterday and was listing things that her mother and I each liked.. trying to show that we should be together. There is nothing more I would like to have the family back home.. but its time to realize that she does not ever want anything to do with me accept raise the girls in two seperate homes. She still gets very upset if I try to show any affection as she did yesterday..I know that this should be expected..
She is hanging around with friends who are divorced and loving it.. they are all health care workers and some are social workers. She sees how well they are doing and seeing the good life of being single again. I just hope I can weather the storm and come out in one piece..
I have not cried in a while over her but the pain of rejection is so strong...
I

Are you on antidepressants? If so, your med. is not working. I would suggest you talk to your doctor about increasing the dosage or changing to a different medication.

The medication has really helped me through this. I have felt less weepy and desperate and can think more clearly when I take it.

This is not the time for you to go into the hospital.

Like MB Veterans told me when I was at your stage, this will take TIME. TIME is on your side.

Your MARRIAGE IS NOT OVER.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN'T BELIEVE ALIENS!!!!!! SHE IS IN A FOG. BELIEVE US ON THIS.

Let her go ahead and buy a house if she can. First things first. She will first have to get a legal separation agreement.

I think your WW wants you to be stronger, tougher. That would likely increase your attractiveness to her. Try to go to the Dobson website and read up on his info. regarding TOUGH LOVE. I know it's easier said than done. I'm failing miserably at it right now. However, I was able to do it during your stage and it worked for me.

MIMI
I think that the ADs are actually working..there is no crying or feling weepy.. just sad at times.
I met with her yesterday to discuss splitting the assets and she really did not want to be there.
S we wre speaking, she said to me that she does not want me touching her in any way.. no hugs or rubbing her arm.. says it made her feel creepy...
another major kick in the face from her.. says she does not want to be my friend. just friendly for the girls..
she went on to say how controlling I was and various other neagative things.. she is just being very mean and hateful. This cannot be fog talk and I'm very sure she means business. She still says that the thing with RAT MEAT is over and just does not want me. AS far as the Stronger and tougher thing.. I dont think that is what she wants from me..she is not at all attracted to me, if anything she is repulsed. If you could only see her face and hear the stuff she says to friends..you would be telling me to forget t and move on.. If this is fog talk she is going on with.. she is spending a lot of money needleessly.
My wife watches her pennies, so if she had any palns on trying to make things work she would be back by now. My main question is when do I give up and start my new life??
I have an appointment Thusday with the shrink that saw me when I was in the hospital, just have to show a strong MM..and not break down..
I had the girls on Saturday night and while we were eating, my oldest D was listing things that Me and my ww liked the same.. she is trying to show that the family should be together.. My heart just breaks to see their world change like that..
anyhow thats enough venting for now.. you can see where what I'm trying to say..

I

MM:

Please listen to us! It is FOG TALK. Do not believe that her A is over. Do not listen to her! She is under the influence of an addiction. Try to focus on YOURSELF ONLY and what is good for you. That's what's best for your marriage right now. IT IS NOT OVER unless you give up.

ARE YOU LISTENING????????

[ May 26, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

MIMI
My pschologist says that if I have no concrete info.. than let it go!!
I am listening.. but I am also listening to the words that my wife is saying...there are some real cruel words coming out of her mouth. If this marriage is not over, she is not giving me any indication..I can only show her a better person, tha's all.
MIMI.. there is nothing I can do if she is seeing RAT MEAT..just let het go on and makes her own choices.
Lets say that she is not doing anything right now..and that she just wants to move on..
Yesterday she said to me that I was controlling, spiteful, mean and many other nice words...
I dont want to sound defeatest.. but if I am going to survive and no end up locked up in the loonie bin..I have to be realistic.
If she is coming to the house to take small things needed for a new house..it looks like reconciliation is out of the question.. Unless she has a complete change of heart..which I can't see happening.
That is why I'm trying to focus on me so I can make a better person for my two girls..and maybe down the road for someone else.. who will love me like thereis no tomorrow.

Your love for her is in danger every time you hear her words, so why not go to plan B?

[ May 26, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Marathon:

Now that you are calmer, spend some time reviewing the MB principles. Do you have an understanding of the Emotional Needs that you need to fill for your wife?

Remember what Mortar says. We have to calm down, become rational and develop a strategy.

I continue to have concerns about your psychologist. Doesn't sound like the therapist has experience helping folks with As. Your wife's actions seem to indicate continued contact with Rat Meat. She is not acting her normal self, right? Then, its probably the FOG.

The main thing now is to develop your strategy, YOUR PLAN A. Don't listen to her.

Steve H. himself told me that the feeling of love is highly variable and changeable. Even though she may feel like she does not love you now, she can fall in love with you again if you learn how to meet her primary emotional needs.

Believe me, I believe my PLAN A worked. Unfortunately, my WS remains highly addicted. He used to tell me that stuff like "Face it, it's over." Just last week he was saying, "I can't stay away from you... I have feelings for you". I worked and worked on MY PLAN and did not listen to his tirades and hate talk aimed at throwing me off course.

Read the MB principles, calm down. Continue to evaluate your therapist.

Take Care. I'm going to keep check on you. I know exactly how you are feeling. I was where you are about 5 months ago.

[ May 26, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

MIMI
Are you with your husbad now?? I hope things are getting better..Like I hope things work out with my wife.
My wife actually agreed to do the en questionnaire. however, much of it she said she was not interested inme filling those needs.. i.e.
affection..no affection required.. no sexual contact required.. the oinly one she was okay with was admiration,.. but only from a distance.
You are probably right that she is still involved in some way with RAT MEAT...she is not her normal self.. just a real mean person...
Although Steve H.. says that the feelings of love can be rekindled if I were to meet her basic emotional needs..the problem is that she is no where near to let me meet them and if she was near she will not let me do anything anyway..
What MB priciples do you think I should work on??
since she is not here..I am at a loss for a chance..any time I have brought up RAT MEAT,she goes nuts..and says thats it.. i'm out of here..
or I have nothing left to say to you...
While she was in the house she cried and cried saying that it was over with him and she was being as honest as she could.
TOO MUCH COFFEE why do you say go to plan B.. and if so what route do you suggest??
I

Rely on the MB Veterans but I'll give my two cents because I want to help as much as I can. I know how you feel.

I think one of the most important things for you to do now is to AVOID LOVEBUSTERS when you are in contact with her. It seems like you become DEMANDING .

I think that before they allow us to begin meeting their ENs again you have to break through that wall. That's where building up the LOVE BANK comes in. These are the MB principles I am talking about. They are reviewed in the book HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS by Harley.

I am not with my WS. I am doing PLAN B. You can read my story if you search under my name. I got alot of excellent support and help here in January when I was in your position. I listened very carefully and followed the veterans' advice and recommendations.

My WS was initially very mean and hostile. He was trying to provoke me into Lovebusting so that he could feel justified in continuing his A and leaving. Up to this date, he has not been able to provoke me into anger and it blows his mind. He has to take a look at himself rather than blaming everything on me.

I broke through his hostility with PLAN A- I almost perfected not lovebusting. After leaving, he now wants a relationship with the OW and me. He's a bigtime cake-eater. The OW and I meet different needs for him. I'm giving her the chance to try and do it all.

Hope this helps. I'll keep checking on you.

Mimi1254

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mimi1254:

"I believe my PLAN A worked. Unfortunately, my WS remains highly addicted."<hr /></blockquote>Mimi, I respectfully disagree. Because while it's true that you avoided love busting your WH, by your own admission, he still did not end his A. And it's not my layman opinion but that of Dr Willard Harley in What Are Plan A and Plan B?:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing."<hr /></blockquote>MarathonMan

My reason for suggesting that you consider going to Plan B is because Plan A was NEVER designed to be a lifestyle. Despite what other folks might tell you, it is NOT about being your best but exactly what Dr Harley said in the above paragraph. If you don't beleive me go ask Cerri, our resident MB coach.

Here's another quote from the good doctor:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery."<hr /></blockquote>Has your WW ended her A with the OM? Despite her assurances to you to the contrary, I highly doubt it.

And has your WW agreed to Dr Harley's plan for recovery? Well you know the answer to that one, don't you?

Keep in mind that your WW has already pre-empted you with the implementation of an important component of Plan B, which is separation. In other words, part of Plan B is already in force. The only remaining component still yet to be implemented is no contact with the WS (except thru a third party or limited contact relating ONLY to child care issues).

The problem is that many a BS stay too long in Plan A, that the love bank for the WS eventually closes and reconciliation is no longer the desired goal.

Without Plan B, Plan A is worthless.

Please consider what I said.

I told you I wasn't a veteran. I was just trying to help.

Too Much:

You are right on about my situation to a large degree.

However, I do feel that my PLAN A was effective in making some important changes in my WS' view of me and our relationship. He repeatedly speaks in amazement of changes.

However, as you say, he can't break free without PLAN B.

Isn't it important to have an effective PLAN A before proceeding to PLAN B? (I don't know if effective is the RIGHT WORD.) In my counseling with Steve H., he wanted tme to continue with PLAN A as long as possible.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:

While she was in the house she cried and cried saying that it was over with him and she was being as honest as she could.
<hr /></blockquote>This phrase really caught my eye. I too got this one many times. I know it is fog talk for "I'm being as honest as I choose to be, so I can cake-eat"

Why do you think she cried and cried? If you didn't LB and upset her? It is, IMHO, because somewhere in there she loves you and is upset at what she is doing. She doesn't want to admit it and the conflict is tearing her up. My 2c worth

I agree with you Mimi that it would be great if MM was able to do a good Plan A before going to Plan B, BUT that is very, very hard to do when the WS has decided to leave the BS AND is very adamant about not wanting the BS to satisfy ANY EN's. In such situation (like MM's), the love bank for the WS starts to drain like crazy and without any love left for the WS, recovery is extremely unlikely to occur. By going to Plan B, the BS not only removes him/herself from the hurt the WS's A is causing him/her, but is also protecting the remaining love for the WS. Without Plan B, the M is most likely going to end in divorce.

MIMI
Since I have limited contact with my WW how can I possibly start making deposits in the love bank?
I dont think thatv I have been demanding but just want a fair shake from my WW..After I got out of the hospital she commented about me being calm and was shocked.. time to just mellow out and let things go..
I am sorry that you are not with your WH.. do you want him back?? It seems that RAT MEAT had been doing the same thing for her..filling those needs.
We were discussing last night about when the girls were coming over this weekend and was getting very defensive and demanding herself about times.. looks like she has plans to spend the night with RAT MEAT..
here I go venting again..
anyway thanks
I

SALERIO
It seems to me that somewhere in her heart there is still love.. as the good doctor has stated that love in highly variable..if it was there it can be rekindled. I agree that when she cried after she said RAT MEAT called it off ( All she admitted to was kissing)that she was sorry and was in conflict with herself..
TOO MUCH
Is it possible to be doing both Plan A and B at the same time.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that.. I will ciontinue to be the best MM possible but limit my contact with her... It seems that is what she is doing anyway..limiting contact..
I can only it back and let god take care of this beacuse i'm am just at my wits end..I cant ciontrol or convince her.. she has to do it all on her own..
Thanks for the input
I

I'd tend to agree with TMCM here, that you probably are at a stage where you need to protect yourself with a plan B.

MM,

Sorry to be gone for the last few days. As usual, my hectic life has not slowed down.

Anyway, let me get to the point. Mimi & Coffeeeman are exactly right. You are spinning out of control, just as I did. If it wasnt for the separation, I would have probably blown my marriage completely out of the water.

I have to agree with Coffeeman right now though on Plan B. Your wife right now is running with the aliens. She has not settled in yet. She is talking psycho-babble still, and will not let you meet any of her needs. As steve Harley told me once, the first thing you have to do is stop the leak in the love bank, before you can start filling it. That goes for both of your love banks.

You are LBing her like crazy. She is doing the same to you. This has to stop if there is going to be any chance of reconciliation.

I went to a modified Plan B several times. Actually, not really a Plan B...mostly a tactical withdrawal. I believe that without a good Plan A, Plan B really wont work. But your wife is not ready for you to Plan A her. Shoot...you arent ready to Plan A her. Everytime you meet, you have to talk about ratmeat. So, I suggest right now a cooling off period.

Use the principles of Plan B right now, while not going to a full Plan B. Go back to what I did last fall. Pull back, dont call, dont write, etc. Just pull back. Except for issues dealing with the kids, just dont start anything up with her. Let her call, let her come by. For awhile, she will seem to be happy. That's because she can now get comfortable in her fog-based reality. But remember, truth WILL come into play eventually. She will see that what she has created is not the nirvana she thought. You are half of her, bonded by God. After awhile, she will feel that emptiness...and that hole cannot be filled by any Ratmeat she meets.

During this time, use it to get comfortable yourself, to work on you. In order to do Plan A, you have to have something to offer…something for her to want. Right now, she doesn't want you near her for many reasons. So work on you. Go to the gym, get tanned. I don't know what you do for a living, but use this time to get more schooling or certifications...to improve your financial situation. All of this will be good for you. All of it will be good for your kids. And whether you hear it or not, your wife will notice, even in the separation.

You are still focused on doing things to get her back. "If I do x, y & z, she will come back. I have done all of that and she still isnt here." Stop this! While it is true that there are principles to this, that if followed, most often lead to reconciliation…I have found also that our spouses are not stupid. They KNOW us. They know when we are doing things to get something from them. MM, you have to make these changes for yourself. For your wife to believe them, they have to be TRUE changes, true improvements. And then they have to be demonstrated over time.

I believe that what you do is Plan B her, of sorts. Let her do all of the contact. Later, you can go to a true Plan B, after doing a Plan A. Right now, it is damage control time. Time to stop the bleed. So, stopp all contact with your wife that is initiated by you. When she is in contact with you, stick to legal issues, financial issues, and the kids. Nothing more! If she wants to go into something else, steer clear of it, or end the conversation and leave. As someone else said on her, "go dark." You may even have to do this for several months.

MM, go back and really read my posts. Read TM94's also. His wife just this past weekend reached the point of wanting to stop the mess and work on the marriage. His has been an up and down battle also, with him as recently as last week thinking he might just want to give up. Then just a matter of hours later, his wife out of the blue, says she loves him and wants to work on things.

You wont know she is coming out of the fog until she comes out. But trust that if you do the right things, she will be very uncomfortable in the fog. Like Mimi said, she is addicted, under the influence. She may sound rational and KNOWs what she wants. But, as with so many on here, she doesn't know what she is talking about. Deep down in side her, there is a battle raging. It has to be fought within her. Get out of the way for awhile and let her realize that her problems are HER problems.

Then she will stop blaming you. Then…you go to Plan A!

In His arms.

[ May 27, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

MORTARMAN
there is a small problem with going to a sort of Plan B..If I dont call to talk to the girls everyday.. she will not call..you can bet your bottom dollar on it..
She will not drop by the house, the only time she would is to pick up the girls..no more..
The only time we talk is to discuss legal issues..and the girls..why steeraway from anything else..wouldn't that mean she is coming out of the fog, that isbyb truying ton talk about other things.. believe me she is not one for small talk.
Motarman..I met with her on Sunday morninga nd she told me thatshe has not been happier or more at peace since being away from me... is this fog talk as well or just a hiint that she is over me and onwards? If she is bonded to me by God, and after hearing her words; how can I expect her to feel an emptiness? You feel that she will find that the nirvana she hoped for did not show up and any Rat meat will not fill it either. Her OM seems to have done a great job at that with all the crying she has done for him and all the atention.. she seems to be handling things very well.
Now I will try to limit contact as I have been doing... I dont call her for any reason.. she gave me her phobene number for that reason only to call and talk to the girls...that is the only contact I have.. again she does not call me.. and if she does it is short and sweet..so Guess she is taking care of the Plan B herself..

Good to hear from you MM. Here we go...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />here is a small problem with going to a sort of Plan B..If I dont call to talk to the girls everyday..<hr /></blockquote>why would you not call the girls everyday? Re-read my post. I said you dont talk to HER. You call, ask to speak to the girls, talk to them...then hang up. Dont discuss anything with your wife, unless it has to do with direct issues concerning the kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />she will not call..you can bet your bottom dollar on it..<hr /></blockquote>And your point is? I told you for awhile, this will be true. Mine didnt either, and I had the kids! She had a reason to call with them, and she still didnt. For awhile. The most uncomfortable time in the fog is when everything goes silent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She will not drop by the house, the only time she would is to pick up the girls..no more..<hr /></blockquote>As I said before...so what? This is normal. Get used to it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The only time we talk is to discuss legal issues..and the girls..why steeraway from anything else..<hr /></blockquote>This is what you SHOULD be doing. Let her go. Do this, protect yourself, work on yourself, be a great Dad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />wouldn't that mean she is coming out of the fog, that isbyb truying ton talk about other things..believe me she is not one for small talk.<hr /></blockquote>Could be. But whatever "twinges" she has right now will be short lived. But it is your reaction to those twinges that will make all the difference. Right now, go dark. Pull back. You cannot meet her ENs right now. But you can certainly keep from LBing. stop the leak...fix you...then in a couple weeks/months, the opportunity will present itself to Plan A her. Remember what I and others here have said...this is a long process.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Motarman..I met with her on Sunday morning and she told me that she has not been happier or more at peace since being away from me... is this fog talk as well or just a hiint that she is over me and onwards?<hr /></blockquote>Fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog...oh yeah...did I say FOG?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If she is bonded to me by God, and after hearing her words; how can I expect her to feel an emptiness?<hr /></blockquote>Because God says so! MM...you think you are the exception to the rule. You are not. My wife did and said the same things. You trust God or not? He said whatever He puts together, no man puts asunder. He said that the only reason for divorce is for unfaithfulness. He said that the husband and wife are one flesh. He said He would never leave you or forsake you. He said that he "hates" divorce (the only time God refers to hating anything...hmmmm?!?!) He said what He said in Hebrews 10, that He will not let your wife continue to disobey and rebel without SERIOUS consequences. Look at David in 2nd Samuel. Here is the man after God's own heart. Raised on Word. And then he commits adultery/murder. And God punishes him and Bathseba. How? They lose their son. when the son was sick and dying, David prayed for forgiveness and to spare his son but it was not to be. There are consequences to our actions. Sure there is forgiveness. But that will not save us from our actions. Especially in rebellion. Hebrews 10 talks about God not letting chritians sit in rebellion. That the blood of christ will not cover their rebellion. Your wife will pay for her sins right now. My wife is already paying for her rebellion, and there is nothing I can do to save her from it. Trust God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You feel that she will find that the nirvana she hoped for did not show up and any Rat meat will not fill it either. Her OM seems to have done a great job at that with all the crying she has done for him and all the atention.. she seems to be handling things very well. <hr /></blockquote>Seems, seems, seems. the third day in the war, all the talking heads on TV were saying "It seems we are getting bogged down, Shock & Awe isnt working, blah, blah, blah." The reality on the ground was the Iraqis were getting crushed! MM...your wife is just in the beginning. it took awhile for my wife to start turning the tide. Yours will also.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now I will try to limit contact as I have been doing... I dont call her for any reason.. she gave me her phone number for that reason only to call and talk to the girls...that is the only contact I have.. again she does not call me.. and if she does it is short and sweet..so Guess she is taking care of the Plan B herself.. <hr /></blockquote>This is great. Makes it easier on you.

MM...I may sound sarcastic here, but I want you to know that you are not unique. My wife did these exact things. For months! Where is she now? do you trust God? Do you trust your plan? Or do you believe that you are unique, and that God's promises are only for everyone else?

Until you believe, it will be a harder road for you than it should be.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for the words.. I have had a few days alone now to do some thinking and look at the ast and towards the future. One of my major downfalls has been that I did not believe in myself; guess what?? I had a revelation!! I am just fine..I was not giving myself enough credit..
I cant change my wife of the stuff she said but now it's okay. I will stop the leaks in the love bank by saying nothing else and that has to be carved in stone, no exceptions. On my WW side, if continues to say hurtful things to me, I'll just smile or turn and walk away.. no LBs!
As for God.. I have been reading the bible every day.. mostly the Psalms.. I am praying again and trying to build my faith and realtionship with him..
I know that this is something that I cannot solve on my own.. so I need bring in the BIG GUNS!!!
So as I let her go and really begin to like myself, I'll leave it to God to make things right!! I beleive that God won't let me down and he will eventually bring our family back together.
My concern is that it may take a little longer since she is a very strong willed woman and has thought this out for maybe a year or more and now that her decision is made she is set and not going to look back!! YOu mentioned in your post that God says the only reason for Divorce is unfaithfullness.. isn't that what my wife has done here?? she abondoned the family unit and has an Affair with another man. Am I not reading this the right way??
I hope all is still going well for you and your wife.. you are a good man and a good friend..thanks for being there!

[ May 28, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

MarathonMan --

I think the key is that it has taken your W this long (over a year, as you say) and yet here you still are. If she was really sure, this would have been over a long time ago. Trust in what Mortarman tells you as he has been there. Probably the most important point I got there is that right now it's impossible to meet her ENs because she doesn't want to let you do that. She's closed herself off, yet there will come a time when she gives you that chance, and you will be ready when that happens. For now, you just detach and work on yourself and the rest falls into place.

MORTARMAN --

If you have any spare time, I could sure use some of your thoughts/wisdom over in my thread here in GQII. Had a rough turn yesterday and I'm not really sure where to go from here. But I thought you might have an opinion.

ALS

MM,

Your last post was a lot better. Hopefully, you are beginning to get the idea.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Thanks for the words.. I have had a few days alone now to do some thinking and look at the past and towards the future. One of my major downfalls has been that I did not believe in myself; guess what?? I had a revelation!! I am just fine..I was not giving myself enough credit..<hr /></blockquote>Stay with this. Work on this. This is the area you CAN change.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I cant change my wife of the stuff she said but now it's okay. I will stop the leaks in the love bank by saying nothing else and that has to be carved in stone, no exceptions. On my WW side, if continues to say hurtful things to me, I'll just smile or turn and walk away.. no LBs!<hr /></blockquote>This is a start. Once you begin to do this for a little while and get comfortable with it, then we can talk about some "offensive operations." Right now the intent is to reconsolidate, resupply and stop her advance. The best way to do that right now is to go dark. Let her now wonder where you are at, physically, emotionally, etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As for God.. I have been reading the Bible every day.. mostly the Psalms.. I am praying again and trying to build my faith and realtionship with him..<hr /></blockquote>Good. As you pray, look for the answers from Him. He did promise you that He would answer your prayers. It may not be the answer you want to hear, but He will answer. That is why your main prayer should be that His will be done in all of this. Then watch it happen!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know that this is something that I cannot solve on my own.. so I need bring in the BIG GUNS!!!<hr /></blockquote>It is like in the infantry. I have too many officers that want to take the hill with his grunts, when it hasnt even been prepped by artillery. Why do that? Wouldnt it be better to have the arty and air force blow the crap out of them, and then he can take his grunts and basically mop up. The analogy is that you are fighting this with a spear. Let God fight it with a nuke. Then all you have to do is walk in an "mop up."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So as I let her go and really begin to like myself, I'll leave it to God to make things right!! I beleive that God won't let me down and he will eventually bring our family back together.<hr /></blockquote>See my next post here on your wife. This is a good position to be in, but I want to caution you. God wants your marriage to succeed. And He will do everything to try to convince your wife to do what is right. But in the end, there is free will. He will not force her. Trust that God loves her enough to do everything possible to get through to her. And trust that, if she chooses to remain lost, that God will work it all for your good. And your daughter's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My concern is that it may take a little longer since she is a very strong willed woman and has thought this out for maybe a year or more and now that her decision is made she is set and not going to look back!!<hr /></blockquote>Your wife and mine must be long lost twins. Mine is as strong willed as they come. And she had months before I left for Bosnia for her to decide that she wanted something different. Then when I was deployed, she used the opportunity of my absence to do just that. Seven months later, I returned. For nine more months, we fought.me to save my marriage, her to escape it. And with all of that, where is she now?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />YOu mentioned in your post that God says the only reason for Divorce is unfaithfullness.. isn't that what my wife has done here?? she abondoned the family unit and has an Affair with another man. Am I not reading this the right way??<hr /></blockquote>Oh, you are reading it right. What I am saying is that your wife has no justifiable reason to divorce you. None. You do. if you walk away now and divorce your wife, God will nto hold it against you. He has given you a way out of this pain. But, as my pastor said in November, you must continue to remember that God wants you to remain with your wife. He will ALLOW you to divorce her for adultery, but His will is for your marriage to succeed. Now, which do you think will lead to a more fulfilling life? Doing His will, or doing what He allows? He is not done with you or your wife yet. She is not running away from you, she is running away from Christ. How far is she going to get? Will He let her go? You know the answers to these questions. She is fighting a losing battle, just as my wife did. Yes, eventually, she may harden her heart so much that God cannot get through to her. It will be then that you will know that it is time to go, that God will reward you for your obedience and trust. Remember in Hebrews 10, it says that it is a TERRIBLE thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. It wasnt talking about non-Christians. This passage was talking about Christians in rebellion. Your wife has a lot of pain coming her way until she decides to stop fighting God. Her pain will only increase (although you may not see it for awhile). In the meantime, yours will decrease as He comforts you.

Stay in the Word. Get closer to Him. Tony Evans has a great four tape audio series on marriage and divorce. Go online and order it. Listen to it. Begin to be an expert on marriage and what God wants in a husband. Then start to be that person. Then, either your wife or someone else will inherit a guy they cannot believe. And it will be that woman that will feel lucky to have you in her life. I am still betting that woman is your wife.

In His arms.

MM,
Listen to everything Mortarman is saying and then do it!
I know exactly how you are feeling, the difference is, that you still have a chance to save your marriage and your family, if you listen and do what Mortarman says. I didn't find this site or Dr. Harley's book until 6 months after my WH moved out, left me and moved in with OW. I heard similar to what your WW is saying, but much much worse. I didn't have a chance to Plan A or Plan B or anything. I moved 500 miles away and it has taken me 6 months to get over being depressed and feeling helpless and hopeless, and almost 10 months of only occasional brief phone contact from WH. He still says he loves OW and does not want to be with me.
Take the advice that is given here - you still have a chance to save your marriage and your family and you are finally on the right track. Mortarman is giving you the right advice and it will probably save your family. Do it. May God Bless you and your family.

MORTARMAN
Had the girls last night and all went very well..got them ready and off to school on time and without any problems. It only goes to show that as I build my confidence in myself, life is going to get much better. My wife met with her lawyer yesterday and wants to talk. Most likely she is going to want to fight for the house or demand to take more stuff out..probably thinks its her right..AS I go to a sort of plab B by turning dark, how will that open her eyes.. will she feel that I'm not interested in her crap and have moved on?? I dont think she really cares what I feel..
believe me.. she would not be spending money on a lawyer, the time and effort to move and limiting contact if she did not want this to be permanent.. I need a way to shock and awe her into thinking that this is a big mistake.
Besides having to put this all with God, there is nothing more I can do to reverse the tides!
So it's onward in building a better MM for my girls and me...
CAJEANIE
Thanks for the kind words..I am so sorry to hear about you and your husband..I am a firm believer in marriage.. if you have no children and are no a long ways away from him, try to let go.
It is so hard when someone says that they don't love you..its hard too accept for me that I am playing second fiddle. YOu are so right Moratrman has been giving some very good advise and I'm trying to make this all work. It will take time, but in the end if she does not come back I'll be an amazing catch for a woman who will love me like there is no tomorrow.
Keep your chin up and beleive you are just fine.. his loss!!
Take care
I

Marathonman,

I have been following this thread, but didn't feel I needed to comment, as Mortarman has a firm grasp on the situation, and I am actually taking his advice myself!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:

she would not be spending money on a lawyer, the time and effort to move and limiting contact if she did not want this to be permanent.. I need a way to shock and awe her into thinking that this is a big mistake.
<hr /></blockquote>I included your above quote as I want to make a comment about them to you: Of course she has gotten a lawyer and is moving this along!! You have been around MB long enough to know WS's always "know" exactly what they want!!! WHILE THEY ARE IN THE FOG. DUH!!!

You can't change her thinking about this being a mistake. If you could, the way to do it has already been shown to you: Separate yourself from her, have nothing to do with her....make om have to meet ALL of her EN's. She has limited contact to keep from having to think she might be making a mistake. As long as she keeps you OUT of her mind (and life), she can continue on, and keep thinking she's doing the RIGHT THING. This is what my H has done.

I truly believe the day will come when he will "wake up" (or God will speak to him), and he will suddenly realize he's made a big mistake, and the grass isn't any greener where he went!!

Until that happens, there isn't anything you (or I) can do to change them....only ourselves. Don't you want to be strong, confident, capable and SURE of yourself when (or if) she comes around, so you don't stumble around trying to repair all this? Of course your strength will be needed then!! So BULK UP, my friend.

God Bless.

LUPOLADY
I like your style..Thanks for your comments, its greatly appreciated. I should know better than to say things like I did.. it is all fog talk.. sorry to see tha your husband dealt you those cards as well..You are so right as I have been told so many times no.. let her go .. seperate mysewlf from her ect.
No the big thing is .. If I give her the benefit of the doubt and she is not in her affair with RAT MEAT anymore, then still do the same thing.. That is limiting contact and not showing any emotions. She still has contact with him since I still see his van at the hospital nearly everyday..but if he called it off..the only thing left is the feelings that she has for him...
I also believe that my wife will mwake up one day and realize that she made a mistake..who knows at that time it may be too late.. I just hope my love for her is still strong enough to give it a chance... I know I love her and always has.. but you know how much hurt there is when the WS says and does those mean things..
I

Listen, marathonman:

Don't get yourself caught up in the whole "what if" scenario. You don't have any control over what your W will do or think. It really doesn't matter if she continues w/the div crap.....what has to happen is that SHE has to see that no matter what she plans to do, YOU will still be a father to your d's, YOU WILL STILL better yourself, get on with your life, NOT come apart, NOT hang on her every move....etc. Get it? This shows her that if she plans to get on board at some point, she better not let you get too far away!!!

The ONLY thing you can control right now is your own actions AND thoughts. Yes, YOUR OWN THOUGHTS!! It makes a great deal of difference in your attitude what YOU think about!!

If you keep your defeatist attitude, and then she turns around, HOW will you be able to help her?!?!? Get it??

Believe it or not, what helped me hold on in the beginning was to read the "Recovery" board. Really!! It showed me there IS hope!! That's why I am enjoying Mortar's help for YOU. It is also showing me that there is still HOPE!! NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, usually they don't mean it, and when the fog clears they can see what's really going on.

Over on Recovery, there are lots of other stories of folks who were where WE are now!! And their M's are recovered....that helped me see beyond my own pain and "the now" of things. Try it!!

I don't want to insult you here, but I'm going to ask if you have read ALL the concepts pages for this site? If not, I suggest you go do it NOW. You see, when I read this site, READ THE STATS that told how FEW A's can possibly succeed....I realize that my H will come to a point in time when he will realize what he REALLY is trying to run away from is himself. Can't do it. He's just taken himself from HERE to there....and eventaully the same problems WE had will pop up "there."

Why do I say that? HOW can I be so sure? Cause HE's AT LEAST 50% AT FAULT FOR OUR PROBLEMS.... Therefore, his 50% is still with him!!! Same with your W. If you haven't read the page explaining WHY and HOW the Harleys do this, you need to. Dr. Harley spent many, MANY years counseling, talking to, and learning from couples who were having these problems. B/c of that, he came to see that in majority of cases, the M's can be saved.

But there are steps that have to be taken:
If you have taken ownership for YOUR part in the break-down of your M, have vowed (and begun) to change it, then the rest just has to happen in its own time. And you know it will, the stats tell us so, but....nothing you can do to speed up this process. Might as well settle in, settle down, decide to use your "alone" time wisely, and watch (AND ENOY) the show!!

I'll just add another personal note here.....I am becoming SOooooooooo much closer to God, I almost wonder if my H can keep up with ME!!! I've recently changed my prayers to ask GOD not to return my H until he's the strong, Christian H I DESERVE and will be ready for!!!

Get to the point where you can stand strong, pray for your W's well-being everyday.....AND can pray God will use this situation to speak to RatMeat (you've really GOT TO stop looking at him that way - although I LOVE it!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You should be praying God will send His message of salvation to him, too. He OBVIOUSLY needs to be saved from his sins!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Spend your time w/your D's to encourage and strengthen them....showing them a confident, joyful christian man....the type of man you WANT THEM TO WANT AS THEIR H's.....Big differences from W and <him> for them. Let them come to their own conclusions as to what is going on....

AND LET W AND <him> GO THEIR OWN WAY. THEIR FANTASY WILL DISSIPATE EVENTUALLY. Then where will she turn? YOU want to be the one she will seek to turn to.......she'll need your strength then.

God Bless,

LUPOLADY
Thanks so much, your words are very inspirational as well..you must be related to Mortarman..
Now let me see if I can address some of your points..I guess one of the main issues concerns my WW and the OM..sheahs told me since the same thing over the last while that what she has with RAT MEAT is over..last night she called to blast me on a few issues. I should not have brought up RAT MEAT but I did.. she said what she had with him lasted 6 weeks.. then she said 4 weeks.. then .. "I dont know how long, but it's over!".
She still sees him or talks to him everyday since she is one of his customers.
She then went on to say that I treated her very bad.. controlling and very mean the last few days before she moved out.. and yes it is true.. but I was reacting to the fact that she had an A and was breaking up our family..I was very jealous and scared with no way out!!
Does not want me near her new place since she wants a place thats her own away from me.
My WW went on to say that I sound by my words that I am no further ahead then when she told me she wanted out in January..when I told her that I was getting over her.. she got almost defensive like saying that no you are not..you can't be.
Believe me , I am trying to get a grip on everything.. and I really believe me, I am starting to see the light. By showing my girls that I am a very good dad, they will be telling their mom, no doubt! I plan to show her a better person, but again have to shut up now on RAT MEAT!! It is now about me and her no one else!!
So with the A over, the problems we had are still there. She tells me time and time again that the problems with our marriage was all my fault. By me fixing myself, she will have to take a look at herself down the road and face the fact that she caused a great deal to the breakdown.
She has not admitted that and being a very stubburn woman, it will bite her in the behind down the road..you are so right on that point!
I have read the concepts portion but will go back and reread them..
Great advise on the recovery board, I will drop by and check it out!! Just a note to go back..do you think that the reason why she is trying to get me to admit that I am still hanging on is that she still has feelings for me??
I am taking ownership of the breakdown, since I have been going to counceling for anger and self esteem..also trying to get to grips why I tried to "hurt myslf"..and ended up in the hospital!!
I am trying to fix myself and make a better MM.
I have also being doing a fair amount of praying and asking God for guidance..I pray daily for my WW, for God to Guide her and show her his will.
In fact I have prayed for RAT MEAT as well for God to show him his will.. id has after I strted asking for Gods help that my WW came home upset that RAT MEAT called their A off ( she says just kissing).. none the less.. maybe God was answering a prayer..
Now that the A is over, she is says that she is onward.. she has not turned around and right now I don't think she is ready to look back. So as I have the girls tomorrow, I will continue to show them a great dad and treat my WW as best as I can due to the circumstances.
One of her biggest problems is who stays in the house. I am staring to think that if I let her buy me out, she will see a person that is willing to be fair. She needs to see me as a great guy, instead of the villian that she makes me out to be now!!
Not sure if this all makes sense but it's my feelings at this time..
Thanks for looking out for me..
I

It's me reminding you again to read MORTARMAN's post about the house.

Also remember this from the mouth of Steve Harley: Unless you have absolute proof that the A is over, it probably is not. This is particularly true, MM, if she acts if she is in a fog or as if your former wife has been abducted by an alien.

Stay hopeful but careful!!!

MIMI
The fact here is that I have absolutely no proof that the A is over or any info for the matter.
The only words are from my WW's mouth.. the more I talk to her however the more convinced I am that she is in a real deep fog..she wants out and thats it!! point blank.. from her mouth..
So whether she is sleeping with RAT MEAT or anyone else I have no idea..and have just to accept her words.. She is gone and what she does on her time I have no control.
AS far as the house goes, I will go back and read the posts..but the more I look at it.. maybe the best thing to do is to let her buy me out take a settlement and move on.. making a better life for me and my daughters when they are at my new house of apartment.. My wife is such a hard case... she wants everything for herself and her way..
this is major cake earing!!

MM,

I want you to re-read Lupolady's last post. What she is saying about your wife is right on the money.

Look, the house issue comes down to this. If you give it to her, it wont matter. It wont even help. You could win the lottery tomorrow and give her all of your winnings, and it would not change a thing right now. She is running, and taking everything she can with her. So, to give the house back to her in order to be a better guy in her eyes just aint gonna work. She already has little respect for you right now (otherwise she wouldnt be doing what she is doing). Now, after saying "I'm keeping the house," you are gonna back down? How does that go to have her see you as a strong man that she can respect? WHEN she wakes up out of the fog, what will she remember of you over this time? What will she think about you then? Will she have seen a man that grew through adversity, that held onto his principles, that loved even when hurt? Or will she see a fish flopping around on the deck, indecisive and whiney? it will make all the difference.

My wife and I were talking about you last night. And the one thing that we agreed on was when I went to Plan B, and I held my ground, things began to change in her mind. She said that I stood up to her, and this was the first real respect that she began to have during this whole sordid thing. You asked if her talking about you hanging on is an indication of feelings she still has for you? In my opinion, yes it is. You see, she is running away...or so she thinks. what she will find later on is that she has been running on a treadmill, and has gotten nowhere. In the meantime, the harder she runs, the more she notices that she cannot get away from you in her mind and her heart. Sheer exhaustion will probably bring her to her knees. She will continue to test you. Why? In order to justify what she is doing. How can she stay with a man she doesnt respect? How can she stay with a man that cannot be strong in the face of adversity? And so on, and so on.

This is a test, MM. She doesnt even know she is testing you. She fully BELIEVES that she is done and that she wants nothing to do with you. But she believes this even though logic, statistics, God's Word, etc all speak to the fact that she is wrong, wrong, wrong. What Lupolady said was true. Sit back and enjoy the show. You are firmly rooted in reality. Your wife believes she can fly and is running across a field, jumping up and down, flapping her arms. We KNOW she will never get off the ground. But she is so sure she will. She believes she can fly...she just knows it. Well, exhaustion will probably finally slow her down. That is why we have told you...this takes time. Watch the show. Watch your wife act like a fool. Laugh a little. You are not the one that looks like an idiot right now...it is your wife.

Stay strong and stay on course. Your marriage is only over if YOU decide it to be. Your wife is under the influence. do not listen to the psychobabble. She may be very sincere, but she is sincerely wrong. Trust that. Trust yourself. Begin to set up boundaries with your wife. do not roll over...it is not appealing to any woman. You dont have to be a jerk...just stick to your guns and let her flop like a fish.

When you decide to finally stand up to her mess, to stand your ground for your marriage, for your kids...and yes, even for your wife, you will begin to make progress. She has to exhaust herself. Sit down, grab a beer and watch the show. While this will be the saddest time of your life, if you can look at it from this point of view, then your wife is destined to provide you with a few laughs over the next few months

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Good to hear from you today...I was hoping you would drop by!!
The thing about theb house is that I am not giving it to her,just letting her buy me out! but you are right I cannot flip around.. just stick to my guns..Last night she spoke of how terrible I treated her the last few days she was in the house and especially the night before.. I was cvery upset when she gave me a list of what she was taking and saying thatshe was going.. I had my voice raised and she was cowering in the corner...something I am not proud of..I do love her but it was the beginning of a hopeless time.. the next day was when I ended up in the hospital. she is asking me know why I get to decide if I am keeping the house and not her.. I told her it was because she left.. she responded by saying I forced her to leave... with all my bickering about us and her and RAT MEAT.
It seems that if she is in the FOG she is deep in it..since she still says that there is no way that she is coming back.. I just treated her like garbage ( I lived my life for her and the girls).
I can see that she has no repect for me and I have no idea how that would ever come about.
On my wife, I am puttting my trust in your opinion..I hope I can hold on and make it through the end... I reallly hope this is fog and not one very PI**SSED off woman who wants me out of her life..
I will stick to my guns, sit back and watch her actions. The main thing is to continue to try to show her that I am moving on.. I had to bring up RAT MEAT when I spoke to her.. she says I'm living in a fantasy and making things up..as I said above, she had a hrd time figuring how long the A went on... that only gives me reason to belive that there was more that went on then kissing..
I

MM,

Just a quick note...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The thing about theb house is that I am not giving it to her,just letting her buy me out! but you are right I cannot flip around.. just stick to my guns..Last night she spoke of how terrible I treated her the last few days she was in the house and especially the night before.. I was cvery upset when she gave me a list of what she was taking and saying thatshe was going.. I had my voice raised and she was cowering in the corner...something I am not proud of..I do love her but it was the beginning of a hopeless time.. the next day was when I ended up in the hospital. <hr /></blockquote>This is why this separation is good. it will allow you to get your head on straight, to get back in balance. Dont worry about what happened before she left. what she is going to remember is what you do now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />she is asking me know why I get to decide if I am keeping the house and not her.. I told her it was because she left.. she responded by saying I forced her to leave... with all my bickering about us and her and RAT MEAT.<hr /></blockquote>Of course she did. Typical fog talk. Lay blame on someone else for our own actions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It seems that if she is in the FOG she is deep in it..since she still says that there is no way that she is coming back.. I just treated her like garbage ( I lived my life for her and the girls).<hr /></blockquote>More psychobabble/fog talk. Get used to it. This is the matra of the WS. She will use it...for awhile. That is, until you stop giving her the stick to hit you with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I can see that she has no repect for me and I have no idea how that would ever come about.<hr /></blockquote>I told you how this will happen in my last post. Your strength, your willingness to endure, your patience, you being a great Dad, you changing the things you need to change in you, your standing your ground for your marriage and your principles. These things will bring out respect in her. Not yelling about ratmeat! Believe me...I KNOW!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> On my wife, I am puttting my trust in your opinion..I hope I can hold on and make it through the end... I reallly hope this is fog and not one very PI**SSED off woman who wants me out of her life..<hr /></blockquote>Oh, her words and actions are straight out of the textbook in Fog 101. Look in the MB dictionary under "fog"...your wife's picture will be next to it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will stick to my guns, sit back and watch her actions. The main thing is to continue to try to show her that I am moving on..<hr /></blockquote>The thing to do is to show her that you are moving up...not moving on. Moving up to a better life, a better MM. And eventually, she will panic because she will see a better MM and know she is close to losing it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I had to bring up RAT MEAT when I spoke to her.. she says I'm living in a fantasy and making things up..as I said above, she had a hrd time figuring how long the A went on... that only gives me reason to belive that there was more that went on then kissing..<hr /></blockquote>*THWACK*, *THWACK*, THWACK*!!! There, did that feel nice? That was the ebony 2x4 upside your head. STOP THIS! promise me...no, promise yourself that you will not talk about ratmeat again until your wife is HOME. I know you are thinking about him and her. But, dont let HER know you are thinking about them. Go dark! Let HER wonder why you dont even care to bring that up anymore. You may find that she will bring it up on her own eventually.

MM…stop all of this. Go dark. Plan B her until she gets out of her initial stages. Once she settles down, and she knows that you mean business, then we can go into the next phase. What I mean about meaning business is that you are serious about your marriage, serious about the changes you are making…and serious that although you love her, that there are boundaries you will not let her cross.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
So is okay for me to let her buy me out.. please excuse my ignorance..sinceit will not matter in the end. That way I can start feash idf I have to.. buy a new place of my one if things dont work out as planned.. you know what I mean?
The things she is saying really does not sound like fog.. but you have been around long enough to know the difference.. those words are just too cruel.. I promise not to say anything again about RAT MEAT.. I have to my marriage depends on it!!
What idf i meet someone that I like and want to spend time with??? She says that she does not care if I meet someone.. she says that she would prefer that so she can get me out of her hair and away from her..is this FOG TALK again??
It's onward and upward...I have to.. I cant get much lower than I did a few weeks back.. last night my ww said that I was unstable..but yet she has no problems with the girls spending time with me..
I

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So is okay for me to let her buy me out.. please excuse my ignorance..since it will not matter in the end. That way I can start feash idf I have to.. buy a new place of my one if things dont work out as planned.. you know what I mean?<hr /></blockquote>I know what you mean. The issue with the house is this. If you let her buy you out, then financially, no more problem for you That's good. But what does she get out of it? Why is she pursuing this so hard? Because, MM, she is losing her life, and she wants to retain some of it. Now, you give that to her (or in this case, sell it to her), and what do you have? My wife said after she came back that one of the things that used to tug at her was when she came over to see or get the kids, she would "smell" her home. All the smells and sounds of what was her home for over 9 years. She could see "her stuff." The half of the stuff that was left. MM...this was psyops at its best! I even put pictures of her, me and the kids all over the fridge so when she came by, she would see them.

So, getting rid of the house for financial reasons makes sense. Getting rid of the house to help your marriage doesnt.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The things she is saying really does not sound like fog.. but you have been around long enough to know the difference.. those words are just too cruel..<hr /></blockquote>Too cruel for fog? No such thing. The fog causes the WS to be crueler (is that a word?) than they have ever been in their life. This is DEFINITELY fog. My bet is that my wife sent Mrs. Marathonman the Psycobabble Manual, because she is reading chapter and verse from it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I promise not to say anything again about RAT MEAT.. I have to my marriage depends on it!!<hr /></blockquote>And your sanity. Once things settle down, I promise..we will have some things for ratmeat (legal things...no one jump me here!)!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What if i meet someone that I like and want to spend time with???<hr /></blockquote>Well, if you do and you spend time with her...then you have become JUST like your wife. As Asylyne said to me when it happened to me...YOU ARE A MARRIED MAN SO ACT LIKE IT! You made your vows to your wife and to God. If your marriage ends, there will be plenty of time for that later. if you get caught up in your own affair, if your wife does come out of the fog, then things will become even more difficult. You definitely dont need both of you with their outer brain casing inserted in their waste disposal unit.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She says that she does not care if I meet someone.. she says that she would prefer that so she can get me out of her hair and away from her..is this FOG TALK again??<hr /></blockquote>Oh yeah. Releaves her guilt. But you know what? It wont help. My wife in recovery now is very put out because I had started up something (EA) with someone this past January. Go figure. But, again, nothing makes sense when you try to figure out WSs...especially women WSs (okay...I know that was sexist...but you gals out there have to admit...we dont have a clue what makes you tick!).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's onward and upward...I have to.. I cant get much lower than I did a few weeks back.. last night my ww said that I was unstable..but yet she has no problems with the girls spending time with me..<hr /></blockquote>Well, she's right. You have been unstable. That is the point of doing what I said here. Go dark. Get your act straight. Then in a few weeks, you will get your opportunity to mount an offensive

In His arms.

Oh yeah...and here is a copy of a great post Redon did two years ago. This is the message that you need to adhere to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just did some thinking today. What exactly are the differences between falling in love and the "Fog"....

Well, biologically, probably nothing. Everyone goes through what we call the Fog when we fell in love with our WS. So what's the dynamic that comes into play when an affair takes place? Why do we call it the Fog instead?

Hmmm, my guess, and that's all it is, is that reading from Harley's articles a lot comes into play. Paraphrasing here, romantic love is an extremely powerful emotion, people lose their spouses, their homes, their children, their jobs, their self respect, dignity and the respect of those around them to experience that feeling of romantic love.

In a 'normal' relationship, this 'fog' isn't a problem. And as the relationship progresses, the chemicals that cause this feeling eventually 'dry up', and if the relationship is to continue, then another kind of love takes it's place. A committed, stable affection that can grow deeper (hopefully) throughout the years. This is the real glue that holds a relationship together for the long term. And it's based on trust, truth and respect (among other things).

However, in an affair, biology takes the reins. Both the WS and the OP are riding that chemical wave. Physical attractiveness isn't usually an issue because the affair started through an emotional connection. A connection that's surprisingly easy to make when the WS is in a vulnerable time in the relationship with the BS.

Once the feeling of romantic love is established, everything else goes out the window, and this is what the BS calls the 'Fog'. How could the WS give up everything? It just doesn't make sense, but romantic love is like that. The upside to all of this is that inevitably, those chemicals will 'dry up' too.

This is where Plan A and Plan B come into effect. When the WS starts to lose the feeling of romantic love with the OP (which can be helped along by LBing by the OP), the WS will think back and reflect on what has happened. They start to realize all the pain that they have caused, all the things that they have given up. And as [H] has said, a strong relationship cannot be built on a foundation of lies. The WS and OP had to lie to themselves, each other, and everyone else in order to be together. These lies will be exposed when romantic love starts to fade. If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.

This is why most affairs end within 6 months after being exposed. Why only 3% of people who started their relationship as an affair end up getting married and why 75% of those marriages fail.

If you want your WS back, have hope. Someday, the affair will end. Just be the best that you can be in the meantime. <hr /></blockquote>

MORTARMAN
This issue about the house has me wondering..Financially it would be very good for me unthe long run. If I do keep the house and she does not ever come back, I'll most likel;y endup selling it anyway. There is so many memories here, this is where our children grew up until now..Idf she buys from me are you saying I wil have nothing?she will be moving on?
By me staying in the house, it will be something that she wants to come back to.. she told my mother on the phone that she would like to have the house back but if she couldn't she would just find an other place.. looks like it doesn't matter!!
Isnt this FOG TALK just crazy... when does it stop... when is there going to be an opening?? How will I know when she is coming out??
It's been nearly six months since my ww said she wanted out... does not want me to touch her... ect.
I dont know how long I can go on with the rejection..I know I am still married in my wifes eyes we are not.. hence her thing with RAT MEAT..
I dont really want to get involved with anyone, but it sure would be nioce to have some affection..If my WW wife sees me with someone , could that possibly make her jealous and want to try to get me back?? although she says that she didn't care!
Its as you say upward from here.. putting my trust in God.. I hope I do the right thing with the house and my actions..I just dont want to feel hopeless and set myself up for a very big fall..almost waiting in the widows watch for the spouse to return from sea!!

Marathonman,

Re: the "house issue" - remember this: You are the rock. You are the logical one right now. Make your decisions based on what will be best for YOUR FAMILY in the future.

Yes, it would be better to be a "couple" making these decisions, but with your W off "running the with aliens" right now, you have to think clearly and make those hard decisions that you will ALL have to live with later on. Make those decisions based on that logic (for the future) - NOT what she might or might not decide to do........she's too unstable right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If I do keep the house and she does not ever come back, I'll most likel;y end up selling it anyway. <hr /></blockquote>That's a decision you can always make later on, if needed. IF (BIG "IF" here.... you end up div'd, you'd still need a place to live, a stable, safe, comfortable place for your children to call home (on your parenting days). My vote is, if you have already told her you are in the house, YOU ARE STAYING IN THE HOUSE, then stick with that plan. Period. SHE's the one blowing in the wind. SHE's the one tossing and turning, and trying to figure out the rest of her life. As I said above, You have to be the rock here.

They say you should not make a major life-decision like this under duress. This shouldn't be the kind of decision one should make based on what a WS - MIGHT - do. Wouldn't you agree?

No doubt She's watching you now.....(especially if there's any truth to the statement that she and <him> are done (don't believe it, tho). She's watching you....she's weighing her options....she's looking to see if you've changed at all, or if you'll go berzerk again, and freak out all over the place.

Marathon-guy, SHE'S WATCHING EVERYTHING YOU DO. Believe it. If your frenzy was as bad as you say it was.....it's going to take quite awhile before she feels "safe" with you again.

THAT ALONE might be all that is keeping her away. She's WATCHING YOU and waiting for this "fake MM" to go away, and the fragile, hysterical, untrustworthy one to come back.

Get YOUR ACT together, and KEEP IT together, and she will notice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
How will I know when she is coming out??
It's been nearly six months since my ww said she wanted out... does not want me to touch her... ect.<hr /></blockquote>Teehee!! SIX MONTHS?!?!?!? A mere babe. I've been "at this" for over 2 years!!! My H has NO CONTACT with me, and never has. When he left, HE LEFT and NEVER looked back! I have faith in GOD that He has told me we are still M'd in HIS EYES, so I believe THAT (God's Plan being a more powerful force than anything anyone on THIS EARTH does). So, NC from WH does not worry me anymore (well, MOST of the time!). I am trusting GOD that when the time is right (and I am ready!), HE will return my H - just like Prodigal Son.

But, let me add, NOT being an "expert" here on the issue of S coming around, buuuuut, what they tell me is You'll know. You'll know 'cause the FOG WILL BE GONE!! When she speaks, it'll make sense. It'll be a move TOWARD YOU and not fighting against you. Or "blowing in the wind."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I dont really want to get involved with anyone, but it sure would be nioce to have some affection..<hr /></blockquote>I hear that loud and clear, my friend. BUT REMEMBER THIS: In God's eyes, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. HE CAN SEE YOU THROUGH THIS "WILDERNESS" TIME. Someone told me this is a time of great privilege, b/c it is a time to be ALONE. ALONE with God, to get closer to Him. I don't know how it is with a man, BUT for me, I TOLD God that HE was going to have to be my H now. HE was going to have to provide *everything* I needed. MM, He has never let me down!!

Just the privilege of getting that much closer to Him, learning to trust Him more, has made all this worth it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If my WW wife sees me with someone , could that possibly make her jealous and want to try to get me back?? <hr /></blockquote>DON'T DO IT!! DON'T GO THERE. Mortar covered all the reasons.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I just dont want to feel hopeless and set myself up for a very big fall..almost waiting in the widows watch for the spouse to return from sea!!<hr /></blockquote>WHY NOT???

Listen, you can't lose!!! If you spend this time drawing closer to God, getting strengthened in Him, it can only improve you!
If she *never* comes home after that, well, you are still the winner cause now you are a better person/father/christian than before! DON'T "set yourself up" - Just keep your eyes on Christ, and let God deal with WW.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, it says "the father saw his Prodigal Son coming from a long way off....." That tells me the father looked for his son all the time!!!

I don't think it's a bad thing to wait and watch for our spouses. I think it shows the WORLD that we KNOW God is going to do it. WE HAVEN'T GIVEN UP.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, (once the A w/OP is over), the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.<hr /></blockquote>THIS is why it's important to do a GOOOOOD Plan A!!! MM, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!!!

Personal note to Mortar:
Better QUIT flattering me!! Ya might make me believe I actually know what the H*77 I'm talking about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ May 30, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]

MM--
I just had to post finally. I am no expert, but I have been where you are. Do you notice how similar everyone's situations are with regard to this stage of the game?

I felt compelled to IMPLORE you to follow the advice you are getting. Plan B is hard, but at least it gives you relief from constant exposure to the craziness of your ws. Concentrate on yourself and improving yourself. Every time a thought about her or OP comes up, replace it with a thought about what you are going to DO (emphasis on action) to be a better Dad and person. Work on yourself, hang out with your kids, your friends etc. DO NOT think about your WS. Pray, meditate, whatever! I moved away from WH with my D and in with my parents--was nurtured and loved. Read books, prayed, concentrated on making myself a better person and mom. Talked to my priest, got reassurance and counseled with Steve Harley. I really arrived at a place of peace. YOU CAN DO IT TOO!

After three months, my FWH wanted back in our R. Lots of bumps in the road since then, and by no means perfect, but we're working on it.

PLEASE stop all the voices in your head, get "Embracing Uncertainty" work on taking things day by day WITHOUT your WS in the picture as much as possible.
Take care.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for the post from REDON..but I do have a question..assuming that the A is over with her and the OM, can she still be in the FOG?? I hope that is not a stupid question.. I would rthink it is since she still doesnot makes sense.
Yesterday when she dropped off the girls, she was upset at me. My mother had been visting with me for a while but went to a different province (I'm in Canada)to visit her sister. so the girls were with me alone! She started at me saying she did not know what I was telling the girls about
her..thinking I was bashing and saying mean things about her. When I assured her I was praising her at any opportunity I was smiling.. she went nuts!!! I went on to tell her that if she wanted an example, I would explain.. told her one the girls said I could cook better meals than her mom. I explained to my D that mom does make real good meals and does her best!! well. she stormed out of the house and into the car and sped away..I think she was hoping for me to argue back but I did not...
Not sure why she is so concerned that I am speaking good of her!! can she be bashing me?? is she feeling sorry or guilty of something? It seems she is trying to cover up or justify something.
I will continue going dark until she seems like she is showing some signs of being normal. Have to stop those leaks in the the love bank and watch the show...

LUPOLADY
I hope I am making the right decision on the house. The girls do need a stable place.. that is why my wife also wants the house!! I have to stick to my guns and show her that I am strong (although she thinks that I keeping it for spite!)
I know that she is watching me, the other night when i brought up her thing with the OM, she said there you go again with your fantasy," It's over with him"... she went on to say that I was no further ahead then when she told me I.D.L.Y.A!!
She would not accept that I am indeed further ahead!! almost that she wants me to beg! Nottttt a chance. AGGGH!!! with all this , what us she trying to tell me??? does she want to see me being miserable..pining for her.. Is she seeing me getting further ahead then her and scared??
I know that she is watching me..that is why I am trying to be the best I can be.. especially for the girls!! Since the smack in the side of the head with the ebony 2X4, from good ole Mortarman, there can be no talk of RAT MEAT!!! so by not talking about him may also show I'm moving on..
I know that she needs a safe, happy place is she was to come home. I can give her safe and happy, but their will have to be an awful lt of expalining and building of trust on her side...
I'll continue to show her the best H and dad for the girls.
Thanks for the six months thing..she has only been physically gone for a month but she as your H will look back eventually and realize what they had and what they gave up to have to jump the fence.
On the thing about finding someone else..I did meet a real nice woman on Friday night..danced and talked for a while..thats all.. but you are right .. it is wrong, I am still married!! Just have her as a friend!! wait for my WW to come out of the FOG!! But it was nice to laugh and see a warm smile as I held her waltzing! Lets see waht this week brings with my WW...again the goal is to be the best MM, sit back and watch the show!!
ANNIE
Thanks for posting, its always no nice to see someone who cares and wants to see a good outcome..I am glad to see that your WH came back.. I hope everthing works out as I sure they will. I have to stop talking about her and RAT MEAT!!! change thr thoughts.. it is just a major LB..lether feel the guilt( altough she has told me she feels no shame for what happened between them). It's upward and building a relationship with God...Iknow he will not let me down.. I pray that his will be done!!
Thanks to you all... hope my post made sense!
I

MORTARMAN
Got a call from my WW this morning...she says that she has found a house that she wants to buy!! so we are meeting for lunch to discuss the final splitting of the assets..She is bing very calm and says that she just wants everything over with so she can get on with her life...
Looks like this is going to be the strat of the end.. Should I take this as her coming out of the FOG and for me to accept that it is over..the other day she said that I dont look any different then I did to her in January!!
I will now have to start a new life away from her.. make the house a place for me and the girls.
accept that my marriage is over and move upward.
I know that I continue to sound defetest.. but she would not be sopending all this money if she did not mean business..
This is a time when I really need sound advise...do I accept that it is over or keep working on myself with the hopes that she may come back some day???

MM it's one thing to divide assets and another to end the M for good. If you can ACT business like and not talk about the M, she won't feel like you are trying to control her (which you are not anyway). I suggest that you use Orchid's reverse babble on her, in which if she tells you that she want things to be done quickly to move on with her life, you tell her exactly the same. She, like most WS, always have the firm beleif that they can come back to the BS anytime she wants, BUT if you do the reverse babble, this beleif will be severely shaken to the core. So consider using it on her.

I don't know about the fog, but she is still in withdrawal. I really think her getting upset when you are treating her well is a good sign. She is noticing, and it bugs the heck out of her that you are not acting in a way that would justify her behavior.

[ June 02, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]

MM,

Things have been and will continue for awhile, to move in this direction.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Got a call from my WW this morning...she says that she has found a house that she wants to buy!! so we are meeting for lunch to discuss the final splitting of the assets..She is being very calm and says that she just wants everything over with so she can get on with her life... <hr /></blockquote>Okay. This is as predicted. She isnt done running away yet. There will be more of this before this is over.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Looks like this is going to be the start of the end.. Should I take this as her coming out of the FOG and for me to accept that it is over..the other day she said that I dont look any different then I did to her in January!! <hr /></blockquote>Let me see...since none of us have a crystal ball, I am not sure anyone knows the definitive answer on what your wife is going to do. But there is a pattern here and she seems to be following it. And most of the time, this pattern does not lead to divorce. But that will all be up to you. My wife was doing all sorts of things financially, etc. to distance herself from me after she moved out. Where is she now?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will now have to start a new life away from her..<hr /></blockquote>True. And it will be this way for awhile. But remember, my wife started the affair in September 2001, I came home from Bosnia in April 2002, she moved out August 2002, and she moved back home April 2003. Roughly 18 months start to finish.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> make the house a place for me and the girls.<hr /></blockquote>The girls are a good place to start. You are the only sane one here...they need you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> accept that my marriage is over and move upward.<hr /></blockquote>Well, your old marriage is definitely over. I am just not convinced yet that you and your wife are through yet. I still believe the last chapter has yet to be written.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I know that I continue to sound defetest.. but she would not be spending all this money if she did not mean business..<hr /></blockquote>She wouldnt have had an affair if she didnt mean business. She wouldnt have moved out if she didnt mean business. she means business...no one is denying that. But her judgement and decisions are all based on a fantasy world. Reality will come back to haunt her. Until then, count on her "knowing" what she wants to do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This is a time when I really need sound advise...do I accept that it is over or keep working on myself with the hopes that she may come back some day??? <hr /></blockquote>Work on yourself, whether she comes back or not. If she doesnt, at least you will be ready for whomever God brings to you. You want to give up? Then give up. You have every right to. But, if you still want your marriage..then I doubt it is time to put up the white flag.

In His arms.

TOO MUCH COFFEE
Had lunch to discuss the dividing of the assets.. went okay with a few hickups..she wants a bunch more stuff fro the house..dining room table/tv/vcr/deep freeze ect.. all thi sstuff can be repalaced!! but still pi**ed me off a little..
She still thinks I am unstable and that have not gotten over her..I actually have not been better since she called the marriage off.. NowI have to start the reverse bable on her.. tried that afetr I got out of the hospital and it worked .. since then I have on a few occassions spoke of reconciliation.. I even mentioned oit at dinner... ( dont hit me MORTAR with the 2x4)..
She is buying a small house for her and the girls.. a 2 bedroom..and step down a few notches from our house..
I will keep trying the reverse bable whenever I can..
JOHN39
Will continue to try to be nice to her.. eventhough she is looking for more stuff and seems to really want out!! she will notice I'm sure!!
MORTARMAN
I know that this may turn out to be a very long process and will try to hang on as long as I can!!
This patten of WS is trying on the ole nerves..Not sure how this is going to come back to haunt her.. since she feels she is doing the right thing.. however I am confused that she is buying as small house as she is and in a depressed area!!
what do you mean by " counting on her knowing what she wants to do???"
Thanks my friend..the war is escalating..but I will try my hardest to focus on Baghdad..
You got that right about her distancing herself in every way possible... it's just that this is so D**m frustarting!!
She has assured me that the A is over and that she is not seeing anyone now.. The A as she says has bveen over for a few months.. that is not the issue.. the main thing here is that she wants to move on and nothing esle.. she says stick with that issue...forget about the rest and stop living in a fantasy!!!
I

[ June 02, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

Marthonman,

You and I are in a similar spot except my W is actually talking divorce over separation, and continues to see her OM, so take it from me, it could be MUCH worse for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That being said, I still say she is in the fog. The one statement that rang really true that I recently heard as well is "I just want to get on with my life." When you think about that statement, it's doesn't make much sense, really. Right now, a separation of things isn't going to really CHANGE her life. Just like a divorce won't change that for my W. I think it's something in the fog that a WS says to use as an excuse for their actions. "Why I am doing this? Well, this is what I need to get on with my life! I am doing something with my life now!"

The shock will be when they get all they ask for and see that nothing really has changed at all.

The concept brought up above is an interesting one as well. I'd actually be interested to hear from Mortarman on this one. The idea that TMCM expressed on just telling her what she wants to hear. Mirror her back. I considered this approach for a while as well and even used it, but I didn't see any results (at least, not yet). My counselor says that this is playing games, and if you act like you are happy to go along with her it's not your true self, that you need to be honest about your emotions and what you want, not act like you are happy with what she is asking.

Then again though, I could also see how some WS's may be shaken out of the fog when the resistance stops. Either that, or you just end up a with, quiet divorce (which is what I was afraid might happen to me using this technique). Now, I am considering taking a more firm approach.

But I would see what some of your good advisors have to tell you on that approach though. They are 2 very different concepts, really, strong ideas, so it's a tough call.

ALS

MM,

My wife said all the same things. Even was not seeing the Om for a little while as she got her life together, as she put it. Got her own apartment, set up new financial accounts, etc. kept telling me OM wasnt the issue. She told me all the time that she knew that OM probably wasnt the one (and then would turn around and go see his family, etc in an attempt to build the relationship). She told me all the time that the OM wasnt the issue, that she just couldnt be with me anymore. Even at its worse (go back to my posts last October/November/December, she was telling and showing me it was over. But, in my talks since she has come home, it was exactly these times that she began to take a good hard look at me. As was posted above, she was watching me. Sure she was again spending a lot of time with the OM and "acting" married with him. Sure she went to Florida to meet his family over Christmas. But she said all this time, she had this feeling inside that was building that she really wanted to come home. No one knew about it. Not until months later. She fought it all the time.

The point continues to be is that she is running from herself...and God. eventaully, she will tire from that. If during that, as she watches you, she begins to see a different perception of you and a life with you, then she will feel that maybe she doesnt have to run anymore.

You did good in your talk with her. Stand up for yourself (do not be a doormat!). Dont let her take everything. In dividing the assets, divide as if this is forever. When she comes back, if she comes back, she'll bring it all back anyway. But if she doesnt, what is yours is gone forever.

Stay in a modified Plan B for now. Go dark. When discussing legal/kid issues, make it short and sweet. I wouldnt even do it over a meal. Make it very business like for now. Like you have somewhere better to be. She has talked about how she thinks you havent changed since January. Oh, my wife said that too...right up until she said she wanted to come home, that she had seen my changes In the world of the Fog, actions only matter...words mean nothing. So, keep doing what you have to do and she will notice. For awhile, your changes and darkness will make her angry. When it does, just know it is working. People do not get angry or fight over that which they dont care about! The time to call it quits is when she just disappears, and says nothing to you again. Until then, take her anger and her fights as she still is not out of the ballgame yet

Time for you to take control of this situation. You do so by going dark, fix your world. Ignore her Fog. keep moving forward. It is that strength and determination that will begin to build respect in her. And once she starts respecting you again, love cannot be far behind.

In His arms.

ALOSTSOUL
Sorry to here about her talking the big D..but yu are right.. must be all Fog talk.. nothing will change for them.. i will try TMCM approach..I will have no peroblemgetting under her skin with something like that.. it will make her think!
Good luck with you wife.. Mine has not talked about divorce but it may not be far once she is in her own place and things settled.
MORTARMAN
Both your wife and my wife are showing sooooo much of the same characteristics...
Is the fact that she wants to buy this house not a sign that it is over.. it is a big commitment for her to take this on instead of being in an apartment?
She is watching me..the last few days she has kept saying that I have not chaged and that I am still pining for her!!ahs not seen any difference in me..she is also holding my stint in thehospital against me.. IT WAS TWO DAYS!! she thought I should have been kept there for a few weeks at least.. the doc said I was fine.. even after a meeting last week.. but she still feels she is the expert!!Maybe she was no expecting me to be over her and is trying to justify some how that I am not!!
I will continue to go dark..stand up for myself..
Being in the house by myself will be a drain.. but as long as I can I will try to manage.. worse case I will sell the house and move into an apartment myself..How did you hold on so long without going nuts?? My wife is a penny pincher.. watches everything, so that is why I got a feeling that this is permanenet.. I will take your advise and keep my faith in God and pray for a brighter future..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marathonman:
[QB My wife is a penny pincher.. watches everything, so that is why I got a feeling that this is permanenet.. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Dude,

Of COURSE she thinks this is permanent!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

SHE'S LIVING IN A FOG!!!

Settle down, will ya? MAKE A PLAN and work it. Stick to your guns. Get your focus where it needs to be. STOP TRYING TO OVERANALYZE EVERY LITTLE NUANCE OF EVERYTHING SHE DOES OR SAYS.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Luv ya, but Jeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz.........

LUPOLADY
I see you have an ebony 2x4 as well.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
thanks for the crack..now that there will be a
seperation for a while..I can except that things will b different.. Have to limit words and go dark..I sure hope I can afford the house by myself.. worse case I'll just sell it!
Shame on me for trying to make mountains out of mole hills, it's just going to drive me nuts.
Will be going back this week for a final visit to mediation to clear up all financial aspects..then it's onward and upward...It will then be up to her to come out of the FOG.

MORTARMAN
Is it a good idea for me to ask her if she wants a divorce?? would that be a bad call on my part??
Just thinking it may shake her around a little?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ June 03, 2003, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]

MM,

I actually am starting to hear some consistency in your posts. This is a good first step. Keep it up, and we will be going on the offensive shortly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Both your wife and my wife are showing sooooo much of the same characteristics...<hr /></blockquote>I keep telling you that there is nothing new under the sun. Keep reading other threads on this site, especially those that have reached reconciliation and recovery. Watch how their WSs did the EXACT same things as your wife.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is the fact that she wants to buy this house not a sign that it is over.. it is a big commitment for her to take this on instead of being in an apartment?<hr /></blockquote>Lupolday said it well...stop worrying about this! she is in the fog. She is sincere...sincerely wrong. She honestly believes she knows what she is doing. But she doesnt. She is running, as I stated in a previous post. She wont stop running until you stop chasing her, and then she gets tired of running alone. Then she will have time to sit down and look at reality. Until then...count on her doing "permanent" things. she wants the house because she doesnt want to lose ALL of her life. Then you say "no," so she is going to buy her own house. She'll show you! One thing I have noticed is that WSs in the fog act just like 16 year olds in heat. Ever see a 16 year old be serious? Notice how stupid you think they are? But everything they say and do is totally serious...they mean it. Then they grow up. Your wife has regressed. She will have to grow up. This will take a little time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She is watching me..the last few days she has kept saying that I have not changed and that I am still pining for her!! Has not seen any difference in me..<hr /></blockquote>I told you...SHE IS WATCHING YOU! My wife continued to say she didnt see any changes. All justification for her continuing her running away. But ask her later one, and she told me that she was seeing the changes. But she couldnt admit that to me at the time. What would that make her, if I had changed and she is still running around? It is hard to be wrong, especially as monumentally wrong that WSs are. Get used to this for awhile. Even when we first started reconciling, she would vascilate between saying I havent changed, to saying that she wants to come home because she has seen the changes. In the world of the fog, NOTHING makes sense.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />she is also holding my stint in thehospital against me.. IT WAS TWO DAYS!! she thought I should have been kept there for a few weeks at least.. the doc said I was fine.. even after a meeting last week.. but she still feels she is the expert!!Maybe she was no expecting me to be over her and is trying to justify some how that I am not!!<hr /></blockquote>I told you when it happened that your trip to the hospital did not help. But that is behind you. Sure, she will bring it up...ESPECIALLY if she is getting no more ammo from you to justify her actions. So, let her dwell in the past. Just give her the present and the future. Let your actions speak for themselves. Eventually, the only people she will be fighting are herself and God. And when you fight yourself and God, you ALWAYS lose!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will continue to go dark..stand up for myself..<hr /></blockquote>Keep it up. In a couple of weeks, if you can keep this up, then we can start some small offensive operations.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Being in the house by myself will be a drain.. but as long as I can I will try to manage.. worse case I will sell the house and move into an apartment myself..How did you hold on so long without going nuts?? <hr /></blockquote>Jesus Christ...plain and simple. There is no strength in Mortarman capable of handling what I just went through. My way would have to been to throw her out on her derriere and move on immediately. I am here today with my wife because of the care, comfort and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is in Him that you need to trust now. When you feel yourself going nuts. understand that that is a satanic attack. You KNOW the truth. Read your Bible everyday. Pray unceasingly. That will take care of the attacks. Write a daily journal. That way, you can go back and look at God working in your life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My wife is a penny pincher.. watches everything, so that is why I got a feeling that this is permanenet.. <hr /></blockquote>Lupolady, help me here. We can both *THWACK* him at the same time!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will take your advise and keep my faith in God and pray for a brighter future.. <hr /></blockquote>You have to begin to trust this...even when things arent looking good. God made promises to you. Until you trust them, trust your plan, you will continue to have problems. Be patient. God is already at work.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is it a good idea for me to ask her if she wants a divorce?? would that be a bad call on my part?? Just thinking it may shake her around a little?<hr /></blockquote>Stop thinking. This could be dangerous in your current state <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . You are trying to control her...trying to push her. Only her and God can work this out right now. WORK ON YOU! When it is time for divorce, only then do you use divorce. It is a nuclear weapon. Once you decide to use it, and she doesnt back down...you have to use it. and then everyone loses. You are not there yet. Be honest with her. You dont tell her everything (dark!)...but do not say things you do not mean...do not threaten to do things you are not prepared to do. Part of that respect thing is that you do what you say. Believe me...this is an area that I struggled with until last December.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for the insight.. I thought the idea of talking about D was wrong.. I should no better and will not say a thing.... just go dark! The thing about the hospital was probbaly the miost stupid thing I have ever done..she will hang that over my head like a dagger for the rest of my life..I also think she will use that against me when it comes to joint custody...set me up in the house and then blow me away with child support that will bankrupt me..she is so amazing..you are sooo right, she is running at full speed in the oposite direction. Let her buy her house, she says that she likes it.. but it is not home!! let her go and do what she has to do. With this WW, no matter how good I get and improve, should I expect for her to continue saying I'm irrational and nuts??? Let her see a better person in me and she will eventualy have to accept it!!
I have been praying and reading the bible every night before bed and it seems to help me sleep better... I just have to find a way to feel His presence and know that he is by my side.. I know the praying will help.

Have you consulted with an attorney regarding what are the most likely outcomes of a divorce? I ask because it amazes me how many people just assume that they'll get screwed while other's beleive they'll screw the other party if a divorce occurs, and yet the reality may be somewhere inbetween. One point in particular to touch with an attorney is the who is responsible for paying the debts incurred during the marriage. In many States, BOTH spouses have an EQUAL responsibility to pay off their debts 50/50. IF this is the case in your situation, your W needs to know it.

TOOMUCHCOFFEE
Thats a a good point.. she is offering to pay off half my car loan.. in return for one of the cars..
I will also make sure that she is going to pay half of my visa as well as all other debts..
This is a marriage and its 50/50 same law applies in Canada..the only big difference in my province..adultry is a wash..no fault
I'll discuss with my lawyer when I talk to her tomorrow afternoon..The more I think about the stuff that she wants to take the less concerned I am.. granted it's going to cost mebut all can be replaced...Why would I want our marriage bed, if this may be the end... let her hold on to the memories... I already have them..
Thanks for posting

<blockquote>quote:<hr />the only big difference in my province..adultry is a wash..no fault
<hr /></blockquote>The same applies here in the U.S., where only a handful of States have fault divorce and adultery is duly considered.

Your W MAY be under the delusion that her life will be better after she divorces you. She does not take into consideration that even with child support, it's going to be a tough road for her. Studies have shown that the vast majority of women that divorce, end up worse economically than their ex-husbands. She MAY even have to resort to a second job just to make ends meet. But if she is hellbent on divorce, she'll get to experience this first hand, in spades.

TOOMUCHCOFFEE
Good morning!
In my WW field she makes some good coin...The house she is moving into will not be a problem since she will have the equity in our house to buy the other one..she is also taking any furniture that can compliment her new home that she does not already have..so she will not have to buy very much.. I onthe other jhand will be heading to Sears to buy a new TV, bedroom set, deep freeze, and dining room set..She may even have some money left over to start a nest egg...
I will hold onto the house for a while fix it up a little and if need be sell it!!
I know that the word is that life is not much better in cases where women divorce.. but this is a smart woman were talking about.. she covers her bases well..Lets just see how this plays out!!
At the present time like Mortarman said, she is still running..let her go and start looking at myself.. pray for guidance and direction...
Thanks for posting..

Had final mediation this morning.. main thing I was concerned about is custody of the girls. Looks like I will have them 50% of the time. They have been with me the last few days and all went okay. Now it's time to just fix all the financial stuff up and get on with life. My WW still knows how I feel about her, but to be quite honest.. I have lost almost all respect for her. Just looking at how cold she treated me when I was in the hospital and as she broke up our family, how she called me a creep.. said she wanted nothing to do with me ect, I have to admit the love bank for her is draining. I will continue with Plan B as plan A did not seem to gain mouch ground.
I continue to beleive that she is in a fog and involved with OM maybe #1 or someone new although she says no.. she will one day wake up and open her eyes tofind that life is not all that better and that she had a real good life with a loving husband .. no matter how bad she thought she had it!!

BUMP!! sorry I'm looking for a response from yesterdays post

mm:

Now's the time 2 really focus on your self-improvement. Someday, your W is going 2 be surprised at your self-confidence and all around cheerfulness.

I think it's great that you got joint custody. That's a good start.

Take care,
-2long.

2LONG
Thanks. All has been going very well with the girls at the house.. They will be with me Tues night to Friday morning.. should be a great week.. It's fun having them around. However a routine has to be settled on where the girls know exactly where they will be...
I like the analogy on the fire...It brightened my day!!
I

It's been several days now that MORTARMAN did not post on this thread. MarathonMan is not the only one following it you know?

I think I will express the opinion of many by asking MORTARMAN for the promised guidance not only for MM but for all of us monitoring this thread. I am talking about the "syops" and the thoughts about God working on WS.

Thanks in advance MORTAR!

Bigstar:

Mortarman has been posting on my thread and also to LEARNIN. He's given us some wonderful advice. You might find it to be helpful.

I'm on page 2. PLAN B: WHAT NOW?

[ June 12, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]