MORTARMAN
Thanks for the words.. I have had a few days alone now to do some thinking and look at the ast and towards the future. One of my major downfalls has been that I did not believe in myself; guess what?? I had a revelation!! I am just fine..I was not giving myself enough credit..
I cant change my wife of the stuff she said but now it's okay. I will stop the leaks in the love bank by saying nothing else and that has to be carved in stone, no exceptions. On my WW side, if continues to say hurtful things to me, I'll just smile or turn and walk away.. no LBs!
As for God.. I have been reading the bible every day.. mostly the Psalms.. I am praying again and trying to build my faith and realtionship with him..
I know that this is something that I cannot solve on my own.. so I need bring in the BIG GUNS!!!
So as I let her go and really begin to like myself, I'll leave it to God to make things right!! I beleive that God won't let me down and he will eventually bring our family back together.
My concern is that it may take a little longer since she is a very strong willed woman and has thought this out for maybe a year or more and now that her decision is made she is set and not going to look back!! YOu mentioned in your post that God says the only reason for Divorce is unfaithfullness.. isn't that what my wife has done here?? she abondoned the family unit and has an Affair with another man. Am I not reading this the right way??
I hope all is still going well for you and your wife.. you are a good man and a good friend..thanks for being there!

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]</small>

MarathonMan --

I think the key is that it has taken your W this long (over a year, as you say) and yet here you still are. If she was really sure, this would have been over a long time ago. Trust in what Mortarman tells you as he has been there. Probably the most important point I got there is that right now it's impossible to meet her ENs because she doesn't want to let you do that. She's closed herself off, yet there will come a time when she gives you that chance, and you will be ready when that happens. For now, you just detach and work on yourself and the rest falls into place.

MORTARMAN --

If you have any spare time, I could sure use some of your thoughts/wisdom over in my thread here in GQII. Had a rough turn yesterday and I'm not really sure where to go from here. But I thought you might have an opinion.

ALS

MM,

Your last post was a lot better. Hopefully, you are beginning to get the idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the words.. I have had a few days alone now to do some thinking and look at the past and towards the future. One of my major downfalls has been that I did not believe in myself; guess what?? I had a revelation!! I am just fine..I was not giving myself enough credit..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stay with this. Work on this. This is the area you CAN change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cant change my wife of the stuff she said but now it's okay. I will stop the leaks in the love bank by saying nothing else and that has to be carved in stone, no exceptions. On my WW side, if continues to say hurtful things to me, I'll just smile or turn and walk away.. no LBs!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a start. Once you begin to do this for a little while and get comfortable with it, then we can talk about some "offensive operations." Right now the intent is to reconsolidate, resupply and stop her advance. The best way to do that right now is to go dark. Let her now wonder where you are at, physically, emotionally, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for God.. I have been reading the Bible every day.. mostly the Psalms.. I am praying again and trying to build my faith and realtionship with him..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. As you pray, look for the answers from Him. He did promise you that He would answer your prayers. It may not be the answer you want to hear, but He will answer. That is why your main prayer should be that His will be done in all of this. Then watch it happen!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that this is something that I cannot solve on my own.. so I need bring in the BIG GUNS!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is like in the infantry. I have too many officers that want to take the hill with his grunts, when it hasnt even been prepped by artillery. Why do that? Wouldnt it be better to have the arty and air force blow the crap out of them, and then he can take his grunts and basically mop up. The analogy is that you are fighting this with a spear. Let God fight it with a nuke. Then all you have to do is walk in an "mop up."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So as I let her go and really begin to like myself, I'll leave it to God to make things right!! I beleive that God won't let me down and he will eventually bring our family back together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See my next post here on your wife. This is a good position to be in, but I want to caution you. God wants your marriage to succeed. And He will do everything to try to convince your wife to do what is right. But in the end, there is free will. He will not force her. Trust that God loves her enough to do everything possible to get through to her. And trust that, if she chooses to remain lost, that God will work it all for your good. And your daughter's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My concern is that it may take a little longer since she is a very strong willed woman and has thought this out for maybe a year or more and now that her decision is made she is set and not going to look back!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife and mine must be long lost twins. Mine is as strong willed as they come. And she had months before I left for Bosnia for her to decide that she wanted something different. Then when I was deployed, she used the opportunity of my absence to do just that. Seven months later, I returned. For nine more months, we fought.me to save my marriage, her to escape it. And with all of that, where is she now?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu mentioned in your post that God says the only reason for Divorce is unfaithfullness.. isn't that what my wife has done here?? she abondoned the family unit and has an Affair with another man. Am I not reading this the right way??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you are reading it right. What I am saying is that your wife has no justifiable reason to divorce you. None. You do. if you walk away now and divorce your wife, God will nto hold it against you. He has given you a way out of this pain. But, as my pastor said in November, you must continue to remember that God wants you to remain with your wife. He will ALLOW you to divorce her for adultery, but His will is for your marriage to succeed. Now, which do you think will lead to a more fulfilling life? Doing His will, or doing what He allows? He is not done with you or your wife yet. She is not running away from you, she is running away from Christ. How far is she going to get? Will He let her go? You know the answers to these questions. She is fighting a losing battle, just as my wife did. Yes, eventually, she may harden her heart so much that God cannot get through to her. It will be then that you will know that it is time to go, that God will reward you for your obedience and trust. Remember in Hebrews 10, it says that it is a TERRIBLE thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. It wasnt talking about non-Christians. This passage was talking about Christians in rebellion. Your wife has a lot of pain coming her way until she decides to stop fighting God. Her pain will only increase (although you may not see it for awhile). In the meantime, yours will decrease as He comforts you.

Stay in the Word. Get closer to Him. Tony Evans has a great four tape audio series on marriage and divorce. Go online and order it. Listen to it. Begin to be an expert on marriage and what God wants in a husband. Then start to be that person. Then, either your wife or someone else will inherit a guy they cannot believe. And it will be that woman that will feel lucky to have you in her life. I am still betting that woman is your wife.

In His arms.

MM,
Listen to everything Mortarman is saying and then do it!
I know exactly how you are feeling, the difference is, that you still have a chance to save your marriage and your family, if you listen and do what Mortarman says. I didn't find this site or Dr. Harley's book until 6 months after my WH moved out, left me and moved in with OW. I heard similar to what your WW is saying, but much much worse. I didn't have a chance to Plan A or Plan B or anything. I moved 500 miles away and it has taken me 6 months to get over being depressed and feeling helpless and hopeless, and almost 10 months of only occasional brief phone contact from WH. He still says he loves OW and does not want to be with me.
Take the advice that is given here - you still have a chance to save your marriage and your family and you are finally on the right track. Mortarman is giving you the right advice and it will probably save your family. Do it. May God Bless you and your family.

MORTARMAN
Had the girls last night and all went very well..got them ready and off to school on time and without any problems. It only goes to show that as I build my confidence in myself, life is going to get much better. My wife met with her lawyer yesterday and wants to talk. Most likely she is going to want to fight for the house or demand to take more stuff out..probably thinks its her right..AS I go to a sort of plab B by turning dark, how will that open her eyes.. will she feel that I'm not interested in her crap and have moved on?? I dont think she really cares what I feel..
believe me.. she would not be spending money on a lawyer, the time and effort to move and limiting contact if she did not want this to be permanent.. I need a way to shock and awe her into thinking that this is a big mistake.
Besides having to put this all with God, there is nothing more I can do to reverse the tides!
So it's onward in building a better MM for my girls and me...
CAJEANIE
Thanks for the kind words..I am so sorry to hear about you and your husband..I am a firm believer in marriage.. if you have no children and are no a long ways away from him, try to let go.
It is so hard when someone says that they don't love you..its hard too accept for me that I am playing second fiddle. YOu are so right Moratrman has been giving some very good advise and I'm trying to make this all work. It will take time, but in the end if she does not come back I'll be an amazing catch for a woman who will love me like there is no tomorrow.
Keep your chin up and beleive you are just fine.. his loss!!
Take care
I

Marathonman,

I have been following this thread, but didn't feel I needed to comment, as Mortarman has a firm grasp on the situation, and I am actually taking his advice myself!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marathonman:
<strong>
she would not be spending money on a lawyer, the time and effort to move and limiting contact if she did not want this to be permanent.. I need a way to shock and awe her into thinking that this is a big mistake.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I included your above quote as I want to make a comment about them to you: Of course she has gotten a lawyer and is moving this along!! You have been around MB long enough to know WS's always "know" exactly what they want!!! WHILE THEY ARE IN THE FOG. DUH!!!

You can't change her thinking about this being a mistake. If you could, the way to do it has already been shown to you: Separate yourself from her, have nothing to do with her....make om have to meet ALL of her EN's. She has limited contact to keep from having to think she might be making a mistake. As long as she keeps you OUT of her mind (and life), she can continue on, and keep thinking she's doing the RIGHT THING. This is what my H has done.

I truly believe the day will come when he will "wake up" (or God will speak to him), and he will suddenly realize he's made a big mistake, and the grass isn't any greener where he went!!

Until that happens, there isn't anything you (or I) can do to change them....only ourselves. Don't you want to be strong, confident, capable and SURE of yourself when (or if) she comes around, so you don't stumble around trying to repair all this? Of course your strength will be needed then!! So BULK UP, my friend.

God Bless.

LUPOLADY
I like your style..Thanks for your comments, its greatly appreciated. I should know better than to say things like I did.. it is all fog talk.. sorry to see tha your husband dealt you those cards as well..You are so right as I have been told so many times no.. let her go .. seperate mysewlf from her ect.
No the big thing is .. If I give her the benefit of the doubt and she is not in her affair with RAT MEAT anymore, then still do the same thing.. That is limiting contact and not showing any emotions. She still has contact with him since I still see his van at the hospital nearly everyday..but if he called it off..the only thing left is the feelings that she has for him...
I also believe that my wife will mwake up one day and realize that she made a mistake..who knows at that time it may be too late.. I just hope my love for her is still strong enough to give it a chance... I know I love her and always has.. but you know how much hurt there is when the WS says and does those mean things..
I

Listen, marathonman:

Don't get yourself caught up in the whole "what if" scenario. You don't have any control over what your W will do or think. It really doesn't matter if she continues w/the div crap.....what has to happen is that SHE has to see that no matter what she plans to do, YOU will still be a father to your d's, YOU WILL STILL better yourself, get on with your life, NOT come apart, NOT hang on her every move....etc. Get it? This shows her that if she plans to get on board at some point, she better not let you get too far away!!!

The ONLY thing you can control right now is your own actions AND thoughts. Yes, YOUR OWN THOUGHTS!! It makes a great deal of difference in your attitude what YOU think about!!

If you keep your defeatist attitude, and then she turns around, HOW will you be able to help her?!?!? Get it??

Believe it or not, what helped me hold on in the beginning was to read the "Recovery" board. Really!! It showed me there IS hope!! That's why I am enjoying Mortar's help for YOU. It is also showing me that there is still HOPE!! NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, usually they don't mean it, and when the fog clears they can see what's really going on.

Over on Recovery, there are lots of other stories of folks who were where WE are now!! And their M's are recovered....that helped me see beyond my own pain and "the now" of things. Try it!!

I don't want to insult you here, but I'm going to ask if you have read ALL the concepts pages for this site? If not, I suggest you go do it NOW. You see, when I read this site, READ THE STATS that told how FEW A's can possibly succeed....I realize that my H will come to a point in time when he will realize what he REALLY is trying to run away from is himself. Can't do it. He's just taken himself from HERE to there....and eventaully the same problems WE had will pop up "there."

Why do I say that? HOW can I be so sure? Cause HE's AT LEAST 50% AT FAULT FOR OUR PROBLEMS.... Therefore, his 50% is still with him!!! Same with your W. If you haven't read the page explaining WHY and HOW the Harleys do this, you need to. Dr. Harley spent many, MANY years counseling, talking to, and learning from couples who were having these problems. B/c of that, he came to see that in majority of cases, the M's can be saved.

But there are steps that have to be taken:
If you have taken ownership for YOUR part in the break-down of your M, have vowed (and begun) to change it, then the rest just has to happen in its own time. And you know it will, the stats tell us so, but....nothing you can do to speed up this process. Might as well settle in, settle down, decide to use your "alone" time wisely, and watch (AND ENOY) the show!!

I'll just add another personal note here.....I am becoming SOooooooooo much closer to God, I almost wonder if my H can keep up with ME!!! I've recently changed my prayers to ask GOD not to return my H until he's the strong, Christian H I DESERVE and will be ready for!!!

Get to the point where you can stand strong, pray for your W's well-being everyday.....AND can pray God will use this situation to speak to RatMeat (you've really GOT TO stop looking at him that way - although I LOVE it!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You should be praying God will send His message of salvation to him, too. He OBVIOUSLY needs to be saved from his sins!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Spend your time w/your D's to encourage and strengthen them....showing them a confident, joyful christian man....the type of man you WANT THEM TO WANT AS THEIR H's.....Big differences from W and <him> for them. Let them come to their own conclusions as to what is going on....

AND LET W AND <him> GO THEIR OWN WAY. THEIR FANTASY WILL DISSIPATE EVENTUALLY. Then where will she turn? YOU want to be the one she will seek to turn to.......she'll need your strength then.

God Bless,

LUPOLADY
Thanks so much, your words are very inspirational as well..you must be related to Mortarman..
Now let me see if I can address some of your points..I guess one of the main issues concerns my WW and the OM..sheahs told me since the same thing over the last while that what she has with RAT MEAT is over..last night she called to blast me on a few issues. I should not have brought up RAT MEAT but I did.. she said what she had with him lasted 6 weeks.. then she said 4 weeks.. then .. "I dont know how long, but it's over!".
She still sees him or talks to him everyday since she is one of his customers.
She then went on to say that I treated her very bad.. controlling and very mean the last few days before she moved out.. and yes it is true.. but I was reacting to the fact that she had an A and was breaking up our family..I was very jealous and scared with no way out!!
Does not want me near her new place since she wants a place thats her own away from me.
My WW went on to say that I sound by my words that I am no further ahead then when she told me she wanted out in January..when I told her that I was getting over her.. she got almost defensive like saying that no you are not..you can't be.
Believe me , I am trying to get a grip on everything.. and I really believe me, I am starting to see the light. By showing my girls that I am a very good dad, they will be telling their mom, no doubt! I plan to show her a better person, but again have to shut up now on RAT MEAT!! It is now about me and her no one else!!
So with the A over, the problems we had are still there. She tells me time and time again that the problems with our marriage was all my fault. By me fixing myself, she will have to take a look at herself down the road and face the fact that she caused a great deal to the breakdown.
She has not admitted that and being a very stubburn woman, it will bite her in the behind down the road..you are so right on that point!
I have read the concepts portion but will go back and reread them..
Great advise on the recovery board, I will drop by and check it out!! Just a note to go back..do you think that the reason why she is trying to get me to admit that I am still hanging on is that she still has feelings for me??
I am taking ownership of the breakdown, since I have been going to counceling for anger and self esteem..also trying to get to grips why I tried to "hurt myslf"..and ended up in the hospital!!
I am trying to fix myself and make a better MM.
I have also being doing a fair amount of praying and asking God for guidance..I pray daily for my WW, for God to Guide her and show her his will.
In fact I have prayed for RAT MEAT as well for God to show him his will.. id has after I strted asking for Gods help that my WW came home upset that RAT MEAT called their A off ( she says just kissing).. none the less.. maybe God was answering a prayer..
Now that the A is over, she is says that she is onward.. she has not turned around and right now I don't think she is ready to look back. So as I have the girls tomorrow, I will continue to show them a great dad and treat my WW as best as I can due to the circumstances.
One of her biggest problems is who stays in the house. I am staring to think that if I let her buy me out, she will see a person that is willing to be fair. She needs to see me as a great guy, instead of the villian that she makes me out to be now!!
Not sure if this all makes sense but it's my feelings at this time..
Thanks for looking out for me..
I

It's me reminding you again to read MORTARMAN's post about the house.

Also remember this from the mouth of Steve Harley: Unless you have absolute proof that the A is over, it probably is not. This is particularly true, MM, if she acts if she is in a fog or as if your former wife has been abducted by an alien.

Stay hopeful but careful!!!

MIMI
The fact here is that I have absolutely no proof that the A is over or any info for the matter.
The only words are from my WW's mouth.. the more I talk to her however the more convinced I am that she is in a real deep fog..she wants out and thats it!! point blank.. from her mouth..
So whether she is sleeping with RAT MEAT or anyone else I have no idea..and have just to accept her words.. She is gone and what she does on her time I have no control.
AS far as the house goes, I will go back and read the posts..but the more I look at it.. maybe the best thing to do is to let her buy me out take a settlement and move on.. making a better life for me and my daughters when they are at my new house of apartment.. My wife is such a hard case... she wants everything for herself and her way..
this is major cake earing!!

MM,

I want you to re-read Lupolady's last post. What she is saying about your wife is right on the money.

Look, the house issue comes down to this. If you give it to her, it wont matter. It wont even help. You could win the lottery tomorrow and give her all of your winnings, and it would not change a thing right now. She is running, and taking everything she can with her. So, to give the house back to her in order to be a better guy in her eyes just aint gonna work. She already has little respect for you right now (otherwise she wouldnt be doing what she is doing). Now, after saying "I'm keeping the house," you are gonna back down? How does that go to have her see you as a strong man that she can respect? WHEN she wakes up out of the fog, what will she remember of you over this time? What will she think about you then? Will she have seen a man that grew through adversity, that held onto his principles, that loved even when hurt? Or will she see a fish flopping around on the deck, indecisive and whiney? it will make all the difference.

My wife and I were talking about you last night. And the one thing that we agreed on was when I went to Plan B, and I held my ground, things began to change in her mind. She said that I stood up to her, and this was the first real respect that she began to have during this whole sordid thing. You asked if her talking about you hanging on is an indication of feelings she still has for you? In my opinion, yes it is. You see, she is running away...or so she thinks. what she will find later on is that she has been running on a treadmill, and has gotten nowhere. In the meantime, the harder she runs, the more she notices that she cannot get away from you in her mind and her heart. Sheer exhaustion will probably bring her to her knees. She will continue to test you. Why? In order to justify what she is doing. How can she stay with a man she doesnt respect? How can she stay with a man that cannot be strong in the face of adversity? And so on, and so on.

This is a test, MM. She doesnt even know she is testing you. She fully BELIEVES that she is done and that she wants nothing to do with you. But she believes this even though logic, statistics, God's Word, etc all speak to the fact that she is wrong, wrong, wrong. What Lupolady said was true. Sit back and enjoy the show. You are firmly rooted in reality. Your wife believes she can fly and is running across a field, jumping up and down, flapping her arms. We KNOW she will never get off the ground. But she is so sure she will. She believes she can fly...she just knows it. Well, exhaustion will probably finally slow her down. That is why we have told you...this takes time. Watch the show. Watch your wife act like a fool. Laugh a little. You are not the one that looks like an idiot right now...it is your wife.

Stay strong and stay on course. Your marriage is only over if YOU decide it to be. Your wife is under the influence. do not listen to the psychobabble. She may be very sincere, but she is sincerely wrong. Trust that. Trust yourself. Begin to set up boundaries with your wife. do not roll over...it is not appealing to any woman. You dont have to be a jerk...just stick to your guns and let her flop like a fish.

When you decide to finally stand up to her mess, to stand your ground for your marriage, for your kids...and yes, even for your wife, you will begin to make progress. She has to exhaust herself. Sit down, grab a beer and watch the show. While this will be the saddest time of your life, if you can look at it from this point of view, then your wife is destined to provide you with a few laughs over the next few months

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Good to hear from you today...I was hoping you would drop by!!
The thing about theb house is that I am not giving it to her,just letting her buy me out! but you are right I cannot flip around.. just stick to my guns..Last night she spoke of how terrible I treated her the last few days she was in the house and especially the night before.. I was cvery upset when she gave me a list of what she was taking and saying thatshe was going.. I had my voice raised and she was cowering in the corner...something I am not proud of..I do love her but it was the beginning of a hopeless time.. the next day was when I ended up in the hospital. she is asking me know why I get to decide if I am keeping the house and not her.. I told her it was because she left.. she responded by saying I forced her to leave... with all my bickering about us and her and RAT MEAT.
It seems that if she is in the FOG she is deep in it..since she still says that there is no way that she is coming back.. I just treated her like garbage ( I lived my life for her and the girls).
I can see that she has no repect for me and I have no idea how that would ever come about.
On my wife, I am puttting my trust in your opinion..I hope I can hold on and make it through the end... I reallly hope this is fog and not one very PI**SSED off woman who wants me out of her life..
I will stick to my guns, sit back and watch her actions. The main thing is to continue to try to show her that I am moving on.. I had to bring up RAT MEAT when I spoke to her.. she says I'm living in a fantasy and making things up..as I said above, she had a hrd time figuring how long the A went on... that only gives me reason to belive that there was more that went on then kissing..
I

MM,

Just a quick note...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The thing about theb house is that I am not giving it to her,just letting her buy me out! but you are right I cannot flip around.. just stick to my guns..Last night she spoke of how terrible I treated her the last few days she was in the house and especially the night before.. I was cvery upset when she gave me a list of what she was taking and saying thatshe was going.. I had my voice raised and she was cowering in the corner...something I am not proud of..I do love her but it was the beginning of a hopeless time.. the next day was when I ended up in the hospital. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is why this separation is good. it will allow you to get your head on straight, to get back in balance. Dont worry about what happened before she left. what she is going to remember is what you do now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is asking me know why I get to decide if I am keeping the house and not her.. I told her it was because she left.. she responded by saying I forced her to leave... with all my bickering about us and her and RAT MEAT.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she did. Typical fog talk. Lay blame on someone else for our own actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems that if she is in the FOG she is deep in it..since she still says that there is no way that she is coming back.. I just treated her like garbage ( I lived my life for her and the girls).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More psychobabble/fog talk. Get used to it. This is the matra of the WS. She will use it...for awhile. That is, until you stop giving her the stick to hit you with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see that she has no repect for me and I have no idea how that would ever come about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told you how this will happen in my last post. Your strength, your willingness to endure, your patience, you being a great Dad, you changing the things you need to change in you, your standing your ground for your marriage and your principles. These things will bring out respect in her. Not yelling about ratmeat! Believe me...I KNOW!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On my wife, I am puttting my trust in your opinion..I hope I can hold on and make it through the end... I reallly hope this is fog and not one very PI**SSED off woman who wants me out of her life..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, her words and actions are straight out of the textbook in Fog 101. Look in the MB dictionary under "fog"...your wife's picture will be next to it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will stick to my guns, sit back and watch her actions. The main thing is to continue to try to show her that I am moving on..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing to do is to show her that you are moving up...not moving on. Moving up to a better life, a better MM. And eventually, she will panic because she will see a better MM and know she is close to losing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had to bring up RAT MEAT when I spoke to her.. she says I'm living in a fantasy and making things up..as I said above, she had a hrd time figuring how long the A went on... that only gives me reason to belive that there was more that went on then kissing..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*THWACK*, *THWACK*, THWACK*!!! There, did that feel nice? That was the ebony 2x4 upside your head. STOP THIS! promise me...no, promise yourself that you will not talk about ratmeat again until your wife is HOME. I know you are thinking about him and her. But, dont let HER know you are thinking about them. Go dark! Let HER wonder why you dont even care to bring that up anymore. You may find that she will bring it up on her own eventually.

MM…stop all of this. Go dark. Plan B her until she gets out of her initial stages. Once she settles down, and she knows that you mean business, then we can go into the next phase. What I mean about meaning business is that you are serious about your marriage, serious about the changes you are making…and serious that although you love her, that there are boundaries you will not let her cross.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
So is okay for me to let her buy me out.. please excuse my ignorance..sinceit will not matter in the end. That way I can start feash idf I have to.. buy a new place of my one if things dont work out as planned.. you know what I mean?
The things she is saying really does not sound like fog.. but you have been around long enough to know the difference.. those words are just too cruel.. I promise not to say anything again about RAT MEAT.. I have to my marriage depends on it!!
What idf i meet someone that I like and want to spend time with??? She says that she does not care if I meet someone.. she says that she would prefer that so she can get me out of her hair and away from her..is this FOG TALK again??
It's onward and upward...I have to.. I cant get much lower than I did a few weeks back.. last night my ww said that I was unstable..but yet she has no problems with the girls spending time with me..
I

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So is okay for me to let her buy me out.. please excuse my ignorance..since it will not matter in the end. That way I can start feash idf I have to.. buy a new place of my one if things dont work out as planned.. you know what I mean?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you mean. The issue with the house is this. If you let her buy you out, then financially, no more problem for you That's good. But what does she get out of it? Why is she pursuing this so hard? Because, MM, she is losing her life, and she wants to retain some of it. Now, you give that to her (or in this case, sell it to her), and what do you have? My wife said after she came back that one of the things that used to tug at her was when she came over to see or get the kids, she would "smell" her home. All the smells and sounds of what was her home for over 9 years. She could see "her stuff." The half of the stuff that was left. MM...this was psyops at its best! I even put pictures of her, me and the kids all over the fridge so when she came by, she would see them.

So, getting rid of the house for financial reasons makes sense. Getting rid of the house to help your marriage doesnt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The things she is saying really does not sound like fog.. but you have been around long enough to know the difference.. those words are just too cruel..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too cruel for fog? No such thing. The fog causes the WS to be crueler (is that a word?) than they have ever been in their life. This is DEFINITELY fog. My bet is that my wife sent Mrs. Marathonman the Psycobabble Manual, because she is reading chapter and verse from it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I promise not to say anything again about RAT MEAT.. I have to my marriage depends on it!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your sanity. Once things settle down, I promise..we will have some things for ratmeat (legal things...no one jump me here!)!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if i meet someone that I like and want to spend time with???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if you do and you spend time with her...then you have become JUST like your wife. As Asylyne said to me when it happened to me...YOU ARE A MARRIED MAN SO ACT LIKE IT! You made your vows to your wife and to God. If your marriage ends, there will be plenty of time for that later. if you get caught up in your own affair, if your wife does come out of the fog, then things will become even more difficult. You definitely dont need both of you with their outer brain casing inserted in their waste disposal unit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She says that she does not care if I meet someone.. she says that she would prefer that so she can get me out of her hair and away from her..is this FOG TALK again??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah. Releaves her guilt. But you know what? It wont help. My wife in recovery now is very put out because I had started up something (EA) with someone this past January. Go figure. But, again, nothing makes sense when you try to figure out WSs...especially women WSs (okay...I know that was sexist...but you gals out there have to admit...we dont have a clue what makes you tick!).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's onward and upward...I have to.. I cant get much lower than I did a few weeks back.. last night my ww said that I was unstable..but yet she has no problems with the girls spending time with me..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she's right. You have been unstable. That is the point of doing what I said here. Go dark. Get your act straight. Then in a few weeks, you will get your opportunity to mount an offensive

In His arms.

Oh yeah...and here is a copy of a great post Redon did two years ago. This is the message that you need to adhere to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just did some thinking today. What exactly are the differences between falling in love and the "Fog"....

Well, biologically, probably nothing. Everyone goes through what we call the Fog when we fell in love with our WS. So what's the dynamic that comes into play when an affair takes place? Why do we call it the Fog instead?

Hmmm, my guess, and that's all it is, is that reading from Harley's articles a lot comes into play. Paraphrasing here, romantic love is an extremely powerful emotion, people lose their spouses, their homes, their children, their jobs, their self respect, dignity and the respect of those around them to experience that feeling of romantic love.

In a 'normal' relationship, this 'fog' isn't a problem. And as the relationship progresses, the chemicals that cause this feeling eventually 'dry up', and if the relationship is to continue, then another kind of love takes it's place. A committed, stable affection that can grow deeper (hopefully) throughout the years. This is the real glue that holds a relationship together for the long term. And it's based on trust, truth and respect (among other things).

However, in an affair, biology takes the reins. Both the WS and the OP are riding that chemical wave. Physical attractiveness isn't usually an issue because the affair started through an emotional connection. A connection that's surprisingly easy to make when the WS is in a vulnerable time in the relationship with the BS.

Once the feeling of romantic love is established, everything else goes out the window, and this is what the BS calls the 'Fog'. How could the WS give up everything? It just doesn't make sense, but romantic love is like that. The upside to all of this is that inevitably, those chemicals will 'dry up' too.

This is where Plan A and Plan B come into effect. When the WS starts to lose the feeling of romantic love with the OP (which can be helped along by LBing by the OP), the WS will think back and reflect on what has happened. They start to realize all the pain that they have caused, all the things that they have given up. And as [H] has said, a strong relationship cannot be built on a foundation of lies. The WS and OP had to lie to themselves, each other, and everyone else in order to be together. These lies will be exposed when romantic love starts to fade. If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.

This is why most affairs end within 6 months after being exposed. Why only 3% of people who started their relationship as an affair end up getting married and why 75% of those marriages fail.

If you want your WS back, have hope. Someday, the affair will end. Just be the best that you can be in the meantime. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

MORTARMAN
This issue about the house has me wondering..Financially it would be very good for me unthe long run. If I do keep the house and she does not ever come back, I'll most likel;y endup selling it anyway. There is so many memories here, this is where our children grew up until now..Idf she buys from me are you saying I wil have nothing?she will be moving on?
By me staying in the house, it will be something that she wants to come back to.. she told my mother on the phone that she would like to have the house back but if she couldn't she would just find an other place.. looks like it doesn't matter!!
Isnt this FOG TALK just crazy... when does it stop... when is there going to be an opening?? How will I know when she is coming out??
It's been nearly six months since my ww said she wanted out... does not want me to touch her... ect.
I dont know how long I can go on with the rejection..I know I am still married in my wifes eyes we are not.. hence her thing with RAT MEAT..
I dont really want to get involved with anyone, but it sure would be nioce to have some affection..If my WW wife sees me with someone , could that possibly make her jealous and want to try to get me back?? although she says that she didn't care!
Its as you say upward from here.. putting my trust in God.. I hope I do the right thing with the house and my actions..I just dont want to feel hopeless and set myself up for a very big fall..almost waiting in the widows watch for the spouse to return from sea!!

Marathonman,

Re: the "house issue" - remember this: You are the rock. You are the logical one right now. Make your decisions based on what will be best for YOUR FAMILY in the future.

Yes, it would be better to be a "couple" making these decisions, but with your W off "running the with aliens" right now, you have to think clearly and make those hard decisions that you will ALL have to live with later on. Make those decisions based on that logic (for the future) - NOT what she might or might not decide to do........she's too unstable right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
If I do keep the house and she does not ever come back, I'll most likel;y end up selling it anyway. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a decision you can always make later on, if needed. IF (BIG "IF" here.... you end up div'd, you'd still need a place to live, a stable, safe, comfortable place for your children to call home (on your parenting days). My vote is, if you have already told her you are in the house, YOU ARE STAYING IN THE HOUSE, then stick with that plan. Period. SHE's the one blowing in the wind. SHE's the one tossing and turning, and trying to figure out the rest of her life. As I said above, You have to be the rock here.

They say you should not make a major life-decision like this under duress. This shouldn't be the kind of decision one should make based on what a WS - MIGHT - do. Wouldn't you agree?

No doubt She's watching you now.....(especially if there's any truth to the statement that she and <him> are done (don't believe it, tho). She's watching you....she's weighing her options....she's looking to see if you've changed at all, or if you'll go berzerk again, and freak out all over the place.

Marathon-guy, SHE'S WATCHING EVERYTHING YOU DO. Believe it. If your frenzy was as bad as you say it was.....it's going to take quite awhile before she feels "safe" with you again.

THAT ALONE might be all that is keeping her away. She's WATCHING YOU and waiting for this "fake MM" to go away, and the fragile, hysterical, untrustworthy one to come back.

Get YOUR ACT together, and KEEP IT together, and she will notice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
How will I know when she is coming out??
It's been nearly six months since my ww said she wanted out... does not want me to touch her... ect.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Teehee!! SIX MONTHS?!?!?!? A mere babe. I've been "at this" for over 2 years!!! My H has NO CONTACT with me, and never has. When he left, HE LEFT and NEVER looked back! I have faith in GOD that He has told me we are still M'd in HIS EYES, so I believe THAT (God's Plan being a more powerful force than anything anyone on THIS EARTH does). So, NC from WH does not worry me anymore (well, MOST of the time!). I am trusting GOD that when the time is right (and I am ready!), HE will return my H - just like Prodigal Son.

But, let me add, NOT being an "expert" here on the issue of S coming around, buuuuut, what they tell me is You'll know. You'll know 'cause the FOG WILL BE GONE!! When she speaks, it'll make sense. It'll be a move TOWARD YOU and not fighting against you. Or "blowing in the wind."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I dont really want to get involved with anyone, but it sure would be nioce to have some affection..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear that loud and clear, my friend. BUT REMEMBER THIS: In God's eyes, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. HE CAN SEE YOU THROUGH THIS "WILDERNESS" TIME. Someone told me this is a time of great privilege, b/c it is a time to be ALONE. ALONE with God, to get closer to Him. I don't know how it is with a man, BUT for me, I TOLD God that HE was going to have to be my H now. HE was going to have to provide *everything* I needed. MM, He has never let me down!!

Just the privilege of getting that much closer to Him, learning to trust Him more, has made all this worth it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
If my WW wife sees me with someone , could that possibly make her jealous and want to try to get me back?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DON'T DO IT!! DON'T GO THERE. Mortar covered all the reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I just dont want to feel hopeless and set myself up for a very big fall..almost waiting in the widows watch for the spouse to return from sea!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHY NOT???

Listen, you can't lose!!! If you spend this time drawing closer to God, getting strengthened in Him, it can only improve you!
If she *never* comes home after that, well, you are still the winner cause now you are a better person/father/christian than before! DON'T "set yourself up" - Just keep your eyes on Christ, and let God deal with WW.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, it says "the father saw his Prodigal Son coming from a long way off....." That tells me the father looked for his son all the time!!!

I don't think it's a bad thing to wait and watch for our spouses. I think it shows the WORLD that we KNOW God is going to do it. WE HAVEN'T GIVEN UP.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, (once the A w/OP is over), the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS is why it's important to do a GOOOOOD Plan A!!! MM, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!!!

Personal note to Mortar:
Better QUIT flattering me!! Ya might make me believe I actually know what the H*77 I'm talking about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ May 30, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

MM--
I just had to post finally. I am no expert, but I have been where you are. Do you notice how similar everyone's situations are with regard to this stage of the game?

I felt compelled to IMPLORE you to follow the advice you are getting. Plan B is hard, but at least it gives you relief from constant exposure to the craziness of your ws. Concentrate on yourself and improving yourself. Every time a thought about her or OP comes up, replace it with a thought about what you are going to DO (emphasis on action) to be a better Dad and person. Work on yourself, hang out with your kids, your friends etc. DO NOT think about your WS. Pray, meditate, whatever! I moved away from WH with my D and in with my parents--was nurtured and loved. Read books, prayed, concentrated on making myself a better person and mom. Talked to my priest, got reassurance and counseled with Steve Harley. I really arrived at a place of peace. YOU CAN DO IT TOO!

After three months, my FWH wanted back in our R. Lots of bumps in the road since then, and by no means perfect, but we're working on it.

PLEASE stop all the voices in your head, get "Embracing Uncertainty" work on taking things day by day WITHOUT your WS in the picture as much as possible.
Take care.