MIMI
Guess what.. got a few t-shirts for that statement as well.. any books or articles which I gave to my WW was met with the response of .. "that does not apply to Me"... go figure.. there really is a script that is followed.
She has said for the past two months that the A (which was only kissing- so she says)..is over..RAT MEAT called it off and decided to stay with his wife and kids..I have spoken to a friend who heard about the OM and was told he had been Scr**ing around with another woman besides my wife.. thus the name RAT MEAT is very fitting.
With regards to my wife and her statements that she is not involved with him.. I dont want to believe ut but will have to. A or no A she is still gone and has no intention to reconcile.
Like you said I can only control myself and not her... let God have her and hope that she seesout of the fog..
I will try to save this marriage now but from a distance.
Thanks

Now that I am trying to let go.. words from My WW are getting more hasrh. She wants things settled asap so she can get on with her lifwe..
After a conversation with her and a few LBs about OM..she tols me that if I dont let her buy the house from me she will just buy another house somehwhere else..I dont want to sound defeatest but if I dont forget about her and just accept that the marriage is over.. I am going to end up in the hospital again.. this I do not want.. When do I decide that its time to stop trying?? I feel so sad that the marriage is over and sorry for my 2 daughters. They are with me for the night and things went just fine. My oldest was sitting at the kitchen table yesterday and was listing things that her mother and I each liked.. trying to show that we should be together. There is nothing more I would like to have the family back home.. but its time to realize that she does not ever want anything to do with me accept raise the girls in two seperate homes. She still gets very upset if I try to show any affection as she did yesterday..I know that this should be expected..
She is hanging around with friends who are divorced and loving it.. they are all health care workers and some are social workers. She sees how well they are doing and seeing the good life of being single again. I just hope I can weather the storm and come out in one piece..
I have not cried in a while over her but the pain of rejection is so strong...
I

Are you on antidepressants? If so, your med. is not working. I would suggest you talk to your doctor about increasing the dosage or changing to a different medication.

The medication has really helped me through this. I have felt less weepy and desperate and can think more clearly when I take it.

This is not the time for you to go into the hospital.

Like MB Veterans told me when I was at your stage, this will take TIME. TIME is on your side.

Your MARRIAGE IS NOT OVER.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN'T BELIEVE ALIENS!!!!!! SHE IS IN A FOG. BELIEVE US ON THIS.

Let her go ahead and buy a house if she can. First things first. She will first have to get a legal separation agreement.

I think your WW wants you to be stronger, tougher. That would likely increase your attractiveness to her. Try to go to the Dobson website and read up on his info. regarding TOUGH LOVE. I know it's easier said than done. I'm failing miserably at it right now. However, I was able to do it during your stage and it worked for me.

MIMI
I think that the ADs are actually working..there is no crying or feling weepy.. just sad at times.
I met with her yesterday to discuss splitting the assets and she really did not want to be there.
S we wre speaking, she said to me that she does not want me touching her in any way.. no hugs or rubbing her arm.. says it made her feel creepy...
another major kick in the face from her.. says she does not want to be my friend. just friendly for the girls..
she went on to say how controlling I was and various other neagative things.. she is just being very mean and hateful. This cannot be fog talk and I'm very sure she means business. She still says that the thing with RAT MEAT is over and just does not want me. AS far as the Stronger and tougher thing.. I dont think that is what she wants from me..she is not at all attracted to me, if anything she is repulsed. If you could only see her face and hear the stuff she says to friends..you would be telling me to forget t and move on.. If this is fog talk she is going on with.. she is spending a lot of money needleessly.
My wife watches her pennies, so if she had any palns on trying to make things work she would be back by now. My main question is when do I give up and start my new life??
I have an appointment Thusday with the shrink that saw me when I was in the hospital, just have to show a strong MM..and not break down..
I had the girls on Saturday night and while we were eating, my oldest D was listing things that Me and my ww liked the same.. she is trying to show that the family should be together.. My heart just breaks to see their world change like that..
anyhow thats enough venting for now.. you can see where what I'm trying to say..

I

MM:

Please listen to us! It is FOG TALK. Do not believe that her A is over. Do not listen to her! She is under the influence of an addiction. Try to focus on YOURSELF ONLY and what is good for you. That's what's best for your marriage right now. IT IS NOT OVER unless you give up.

ARE YOU LISTENING????????

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

MIMI
My pschologist says that if I have no concrete info.. than let it go!!
I am listening.. but I am also listening to the words that my wife is saying...there are some real cruel words coming out of her mouth. If this marriage is not over, she is not giving me any indication..I can only show her a better person, tha's all.
MIMI.. there is nothing I can do if she is seeing RAT MEAT..just let het go on and makes her own choices.
Lets say that she is not doing anything right now..and that she just wants to move on..
Yesterday she said to me that I was controlling, spiteful, mean and many other nice words...
I dont want to sound defeatest.. but if I am going to survive and no end up locked up in the loonie bin..I have to be realistic.
If she is coming to the house to take small things needed for a new house..it looks like reconciliation is out of the question.. Unless she has a complete change of heart..which I can't see happening.
That is why I'm trying to focus on me so I can make a better person for my two girls..and maybe down the road for someone else.. who will love me like thereis no tomorrow.

Your love for her is in danger every time you hear her words, so why not go to plan B?

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Marathon:

Now that you are calmer, spend some time reviewing the MB principles. Do you have an understanding of the Emotional Needs that you need to fill for your wife?

Remember what Mortar says. We have to calm down, become rational and develop a strategy.

I continue to have concerns about your psychologist. Doesn't sound like the therapist has experience helping folks with As. Your wife's actions seem to indicate continued contact with Rat Meat. She is not acting her normal self, right? Then, its probably the FOG.

The main thing now is to develop your strategy, YOUR PLAN A. Don't listen to her.

Steve H. himself told me that the feeling of love is highly variable and changeable. Even though she may feel like she does not love you now, she can fall in love with you again if you learn how to meet her primary emotional needs.

Believe me, I believe my PLAN A worked. Unfortunately, my WS remains highly addicted. He used to tell me that stuff like "Face it, it's over." Just last week he was saying, "I can't stay away from you... I have feelings for you". I worked and worked on MY PLAN and did not listen to his tirades and hate talk aimed at throwing me off course.

Read the MB principles, calm down. Continue to evaluate your therapist.

Take Care. I'm going to keep check on you. I know exactly how you are feeling. I was where you are about 5 months ago.

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

MIMI
Are you with your husbad now?? I hope things are getting better..Like I hope things work out with my wife.
My wife actually agreed to do the en questionnaire. however, much of it she said she was not interested inme filling those needs.. i.e.
affection..no affection required.. no sexual contact required.. the oinly one she was okay with was admiration,.. but only from a distance.
You are probably right that she is still involved in some way with RAT MEAT...she is not her normal self.. just a real mean person...
Although Steve H.. says that the feelings of love can be rekindled if I were to meet her basic emotional needs..the problem is that she is no where near to let me meet them and if she was near she will not let me do anything anyway..
What MB priciples do you think I should work on??
since she is not here..I am at a loss for a chance..any time I have brought up RAT MEAT,she goes nuts..and says thats it.. i'm out of here..
or I have nothing left to say to you...
While she was in the house she cried and cried saying that it was over with him and she was being as honest as she could.
TOO MUCH COFFEE why do you say go to plan B.. and if so what route do you suggest??
I

Rely on the MB Veterans but I'll give my two cents because I want to help as much as I can. I know how you feel.

I think one of the most important things for you to do now is to AVOID LOVEBUSTERS when you are in contact with her. It seems like you become DEMANDING .

I think that before they allow us to begin meeting their ENs again you have to break through that wall. That's where building up the LOVE BANK comes in. These are the MB principles I am talking about. They are reviewed in the book HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS by Harley.

I am not with my WS. I am doing PLAN B. You can read my story if you search under my name. I got alot of excellent support and help here in January when I was in your position. I listened very carefully and followed the veterans' advice and recommendations.

My WS was initially very mean and hostile. He was trying to provoke me into Lovebusting so that he could feel justified in continuing his A and leaving. Up to this date, he has not been able to provoke me into anger and it blows his mind. He has to take a look at himself rather than blaming everything on me.

I broke through his hostility with PLAN A- I almost perfected not lovebusting. After leaving, he now wants a relationship with the OW and me. He's a bigtime cake-eater. The OW and I meet different needs for him. I'm giving her the chance to try and do it all.

Hope this helps. I'll keep checking on you.

Mimi1254

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi1254:

"I believe my PLAN A worked. Unfortunately, my WS remains highly addicted."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, I respectfully disagree. Because while it's true that you avoided love busting your WH, by your own admission, he still did not end his A. And it's not my layman opinion but that of Dr Willard Harley in What Are Plan A and Plan B?:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MarathonMan

My reason for suggesting that you consider going to Plan B is because Plan A was NEVER designed to be a lifestyle. Despite what other folks might tell you, it is NOT about being your best but exactly what Dr Harley said in the above paragraph. If you don't beleive me go ask Cerri, our resident MB coach.

Here's another quote from the good doctor:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has your WW ended her A with the OM? Despite her assurances to you to the contrary, I highly doubt it.

And has your WW agreed to Dr Harley's plan for recovery? Well you know the answer to that one, don't you?

Keep in mind that your WW has already pre-empted you with the implementation of an important component of Plan B, which is separation. In other words, part of Plan B is already in force. The only remaining component still yet to be implemented is no contact with the WS (except thru a third party or limited contact relating ONLY to child care issues).

The problem is that many a BS stay too long in Plan A, that the love bank for the WS eventually closes and reconciliation is no longer the desired goal.

Without Plan B, Plan A is worthless.

Please consider what I said.

I told you I wasn't a veteran. I was just trying to help.

Too Much:

You are right on about my situation to a large degree.

However, I do feel that my PLAN A was effective in making some important changes in my WS' view of me and our relationship. He repeatedly speaks in amazement of changes.

However, as you say, he can't break free without PLAN B.

Isn't it important to have an effective PLAN A before proceeding to PLAN B? (I don't know if effective is the RIGHT WORD.) In my counseling with Steve H., he wanted tme to continue with PLAN A as long as possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marathonman:
<strong>
While she was in the house she cried and cried saying that it was over with him and she was being as honest as she could.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This phrase really caught my eye. I too got this one many times. I know it is fog talk for "I'm being as honest as I choose to be, so I can cake-eat"

Why do you think she cried and cried? If you didn't LB and upset her? It is, IMHO, because somewhere in there she loves you and is upset at what she is doing. She doesn't want to admit it and the conflict is tearing her up. My 2c worth

I agree with you Mimi that it would be great if MM was able to do a good Plan A before going to Plan B, BUT that is very, very hard to do when the WS has decided to leave the BS AND is very adamant about not wanting the BS to satisfy ANY EN's. In such situation (like MM's), the love bank for the WS starts to drain like crazy and without any love left for the WS, recovery is extremely unlikely to occur. By going to Plan B, the BS not only removes him/herself from the hurt the WS's A is causing him/her, but is also protecting the remaining love for the WS. Without Plan B, the M is most likely going to end in divorce.

MIMI
Since I have limited contact with my WW how can I possibly start making deposits in the love bank?
I dont think thatv I have been demanding but just want a fair shake from my WW..After I got out of the hospital she commented about me being calm and was shocked.. time to just mellow out and let things go..
I am sorry that you are not with your WH.. do you want him back?? It seems that RAT MEAT had been doing the same thing for her..filling those needs.
We were discussing last night about when the girls were coming over this weekend and was getting very defensive and demanding herself about times.. looks like she has plans to spend the night with RAT MEAT..
here I go venting again..
anyway thanks
I

SALERIO
It seems to me that somewhere in her heart there is still love.. as the good doctor has stated that love in highly variable..if it was there it can be rekindled. I agree that when she cried after she said RAT MEAT called it off ( All she admitted to was kissing)that she was sorry and was in conflict with herself..
TOO MUCH
Is it possible to be doing both Plan A and B at the same time.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that.. I will ciontinue to be the best MM possible but limit my contact with her... It seems that is what she is doing anyway..limiting contact..
I can only it back and let god take care of this beacuse i'm am just at my wits end..I cant ciontrol or convince her.. she has to do it all on her own..
Thanks for the input
I

I'd tend to agree with TMCM here, that you probably are at a stage where you need to protect yourself with a plan B.

MM,

Sorry to be gone for the last few days. As usual, my hectic life has not slowed down.

Anyway, let me get to the point. Mimi & Coffeeeman are exactly right. You are spinning out of control, just as I did. If it wasnt for the separation, I would have probably blown my marriage completely out of the water.

I have to agree with Coffeeman right now though on Plan B. Your wife right now is running with the aliens. She has not settled in yet. She is talking psycho-babble still, and will not let you meet any of her needs. As steve Harley told me once, the first thing you have to do is stop the leak in the love bank, before you can start filling it. That goes for both of your love banks.

You are LBing her like crazy. She is doing the same to you. This has to stop if there is going to be any chance of reconciliation.

I went to a modified Plan B several times. Actually, not really a Plan B...mostly a tactical withdrawal. I believe that without a good Plan A, Plan B really wont work. But your wife is not ready for you to Plan A her. Shoot...you arent ready to Plan A her. Everytime you meet, you have to talk about ratmeat. So, I suggest right now a cooling off period.

Use the principles of Plan B right now, while not going to a full Plan B. Go back to what I did last fall. Pull back, dont call, dont write, etc. Just pull back. Except for issues dealing with the kids, just dont start anything up with her. Let her call, let her come by. For awhile, she will seem to be happy. That's because she can now get comfortable in her fog-based reality. But remember, truth WILL come into play eventually. She will see that what she has created is not the nirvana she thought. You are half of her, bonded by God. After awhile, she will feel that emptiness...and that hole cannot be filled by any Ratmeat she meets.

During this time, use it to get comfortable yourself, to work on you. In order to do Plan A, you have to have something to offer…something for her to want. Right now, she doesn't want you near her for many reasons. So work on you. Go to the gym, get tanned. I don't know what you do for a living, but use this time to get more schooling or certifications...to improve your financial situation. All of this will be good for you. All of it will be good for your kids. And whether you hear it or not, your wife will notice, even in the separation.

You are still focused on doing things to get her back. "If I do x, y & z, she will come back. I have done all of that and she still isnt here." Stop this! While it is true that there are principles to this, that if followed, most often lead to reconciliation…I have found also that our spouses are not stupid. They KNOW us. They know when we are doing things to get something from them. MM, you have to make these changes for yourself. For your wife to believe them, they have to be TRUE changes, true improvements. And then they have to be demonstrated over time.

I believe that what you do is Plan B her, of sorts. Let her do all of the contact. Later, you can go to a true Plan B, after doing a Plan A. Right now, it is damage control time. Time to stop the bleed. So, stopp all contact with your wife that is initiated by you. When she is in contact with you, stick to legal issues, financial issues, and the kids. Nothing more! If she wants to go into something else, steer clear of it, or end the conversation and leave. As someone else said on her, "go dark." You may even have to do this for several months.

MM, go back and really read my posts. Read TM94's also. His wife just this past weekend reached the point of wanting to stop the mess and work on the marriage. His has been an up and down battle also, with him as recently as last week thinking he might just want to give up. Then just a matter of hours later, his wife out of the blue, says she loves him and wants to work on things.

You wont know she is coming out of the fog until she comes out. But trust that if you do the right things, she will be very uncomfortable in the fog. Like Mimi said, she is addicted, under the influence. She may sound rational and KNOWs what she wants. But, as with so many on here, she doesn't know what she is talking about. Deep down in side her, there is a battle raging. It has to be fought within her. Get out of the way for awhile and let her realize that her problems are HER problems.

Then she will stop blaming you. Then…you go to Plan A!

In His arms.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MORTARMAN
there is a small problem with going to a sort of Plan B..If I dont call to talk to the girls everyday.. she will not call..you can bet your bottom dollar on it..
She will not drop by the house, the only time she would is to pick up the girls..no more..
The only time we talk is to discuss legal issues..and the girls..why steeraway from anything else..wouldn't that mean she is coming out of the fog, that isbyb truying ton talk about other things.. believe me she is not one for small talk.
Motarman..I met with her on Sunday morninga nd she told me thatshe has not been happier or more at peace since being away from me... is this fog talk as well or just a hiint that she is over me and onwards? If she is bonded to me by God, and after hearing her words; how can I expect her to feel an emptiness? You feel that she will find that the nirvana she hoped for did not show up and any Rat meat will not fill it either. Her OM seems to have done a great job at that with all the crying she has done for him and all the atention.. she seems to be handling things very well.
Now I will try to limit contact as I have been doing... I dont call her for any reason.. she gave me her phobene number for that reason only to call and talk to the girls...that is the only contact I have.. again she does not call me.. and if she does it is short and sweet..so Guess she is taking care of the Plan B herself..

Good to hear from you MM. Here we go...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">here is a small problem with going to a sort of Plan B..If I dont call to talk to the girls everyday..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why would you not call the girls everyday? Re-read my post. I said you dont talk to HER. You call, ask to speak to the girls, talk to them...then hang up. Dont discuss anything with your wife, unless it has to do with direct issues concerning the kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she will not call..you can bet your bottom dollar on it..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your point is? I told you for awhile, this will be true. Mine didnt either, and I had the kids! She had a reason to call with them, and she still didnt. For awhile. The most uncomfortable time in the fog is when everything goes silent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will not drop by the house, the only time she would is to pick up the girls..no more..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said before...so what? This is normal. Get used to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only time we talk is to discuss legal issues..and the girls..why steeraway from anything else..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what you SHOULD be doing. Let her go. Do this, protect yourself, work on yourself, be a great Dad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">wouldn't that mean she is coming out of the fog, that isbyb truying ton talk about other things..believe me she is not one for small talk.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be. But whatever "twinges" she has right now will be short lived. But it is your reaction to those twinges that will make all the difference. Right now, go dark. Pull back. You cannot meet her ENs right now. But you can certainly keep from LBing. stop the leak...fix you...then in a couple weeks/months, the opportunity will present itself to Plan A her. Remember what I and others here have said...this is a long process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Motarman..I met with her on Sunday morning and she told me that she has not been happier or more at peace since being away from me... is this fog talk as well or just a hiint that she is over me and onwards?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog...oh yeah...did I say FOG?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she is bonded to me by God, and after hearing her words; how can I expect her to feel an emptiness?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because God says so! MM...you think you are the exception to the rule. You are not. My wife did and said the same things. You trust God or not? He said whatever He puts together, no man puts asunder. He said that the only reason for divorce is for unfaithfulness. He said that the husband and wife are one flesh. He said He would never leave you or forsake you. He said that he "hates" divorce (the only time God refers to hating anything...hmmmm?!?!) He said what He said in Hebrews 10, that He will not let your wife continue to disobey and rebel without SERIOUS consequences. Look at David in 2nd Samuel. Here is the man after God's own heart. Raised on Word. And then he commits adultery/murder. And God punishes him and Bathseba. How? They lose their son. when the son was sick and dying, David prayed for forgiveness and to spare his son but it was not to be. There are consequences to our actions. Sure there is forgiveness. But that will not save us from our actions. Especially in rebellion. Hebrews 10 talks about God not letting chritians sit in rebellion. That the blood of christ will not cover their rebellion. Your wife will pay for her sins right now. My wife is already paying for her rebellion, and there is nothing I can do to save her from it. Trust God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You feel that she will find that the nirvana she hoped for did not show up and any Rat meat will not fill it either. Her OM seems to have done a great job at that with all the crying she has done for him and all the atention.. she seems to be handling things very well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems, seems, seems. the third day in the war, all the talking heads on TV were saying "It seems we are getting bogged down, Shock & Awe isnt working, blah, blah, blah." The reality on the ground was the Iraqis were getting crushed! MM...your wife is just in the beginning. it took awhile for my wife to start turning the tide. Yours will also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I will try to limit contact as I have been doing... I dont call her for any reason.. she gave me her phone number for that reason only to call and talk to the girls...that is the only contact I have.. again she does not call me.. and if she does it is short and sweet..so Guess she is taking care of the Plan B herself.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great. Makes it easier on you.

MM...I may sound sarcastic here, but I want you to know that you are not unique. My wife did these exact things. For months! Where is she now? do you trust God? Do you trust your plan? Or do you believe that you are unique, and that God's promises are only for everyone else?

Until you believe, it will be a harder road for you than it should be.

In His arms.