JMVHO- I really think a separaton would be the best in your situation ,you don't see that you being around her is just as damaging to you in your attempt to PLAN A as it is for her in her state of FOG .

I could be wrong , very wrong but my H said, the very same thing to me and I said, the same as you .

It was so real , I thouhgt this could not be FOG , HE repeated every day that he HATED ME , was sick just to look at me , the thought of coming home and being around me even in same house made him ILL .'

I heard it all , and with that in your face trying to be the BEST YOU is next to impossiable because of your self esteem being so low .

I HAVE BEEN THERE , and so have alot of others .

When I got him out , it was horrible not picnic , but when I was around him it was easier to PLAN A

AND it made me better for my KIDS cause his attitude was not in my face .

YOU are talking the talk of plan A but not walking it .
NOT beating you up , just trying to give you my experiance , I am the worst at plan A .

I am trying to do it now and still have not gotten there and thats with knowing all I know after 2yrs.

HAVING OP on your mind night and day will ruin PLAN A every time and haveing no SELF ESTEEM .

Those 2 things in my opion are the things that kill PLAN A .

This PLAN A is like sucking up verbal abuse at evry turn and like some one getting hit you want to hit back .

Where you need to not hit back , BUT just put your hands up and block the SHOTS .

BE STRONG and HEALTHY , I really feel for you , my prayers are with you for you to see the wonderful person you are and to feel that power in you .

ONE more thing (I can ramble forever) Wake up early and start helping with those girls , get up before wife and pack there lunch or do it the night before .
TALK to them the night before and see what cloths can be laid out for school the next day .
Start with your KIDS to better yourself the reward is like nothing you will ever get from anything else .

Take a look at there homework no what there learning in school talk to them about it at dinner , show them your interset in them and your love . I don't know your schedule be these are some hints , MAKE sure you read to them , tell them a story , anything . DO it for you , if your wife takes care of them ,and has done all these things most of your M its time you joined in .

I am not saying there are not men out there that don't do it , BUT I know in a M some men become conplacent(can not spell ) that there W takes care of all those things and it is a part of M that WOMEN do want changed but some times won't ask they want there H to take the BULL BY THE HORNS .

This is all PLAN A to you being THE greatest DAD !

I am sure you are and that your girls love you very much , just take a look and see if theres more your W might think you could have done with helping out .

Marathon, our situations continue to go hand in hand. Yesterday my wife told me she is tired of me and just wants out (she has been saying this since the first of Feb). She said that we have too many problems. Me, being the philosophical type, said to her, "if we take all of what we have done to each other and put it away, like we agreed a week ago we would do, what problems do we have, now? What is our "problem"?" She could not answer and that only frustrated her even more. She is moving out next week.
I spoke with the OM and he made me SO angry I cannot even desribe it. He says that she needs him because I have hurt her so badly over a year ago. I am so hurt right now I do not know what to say. I spoke with my attorney and I am making plans on keeping my kids AT HOME with me. I am also making plans to where this fool cannot come near my children, which means if she wants to be with her children he can't be around her at the same time. My situation, as is yours, is depressing. I only pray that we can both get through it. I am optimistic though. I do believe that God will change her mind and she will see that her place is at home with me and the children. I believe she will fall in loev with me all over again. Every relationship has potential for pain and in fact, in every relationship there will come a time where the other person hurts the other. These other men will hurt our wives one day. Our wives WILL long to be back at HOME, home with their children and the man they made them with. We created life with our wives!! They will remember. Just so long as we continue to be kind (I cooked dinner for her again last night) one day they will come back. One day. But it hurts SO much right now. So much.

MM and Solon,

I will try to respond more in depth a little later because I do see some positive things happening here (okay...here's one...she wanted out in Jan...then April...now May...you see a pattern here MM? More later...).

Listen to solon. he is in the exact same spot you are. And where I was just months ago. I am where you are headed, if you do this right. Concentrate on getting where I am. Get off the day to day. I am months ahead of you. It will take months...maybe separation like we did...maybe her back with OM. But the months will take months. It will not be shortened. But both of you can damn well lengthen it.

Make your plan. See where I have been and where I am now. D-Day was one year ago last week. My wife moved back in two weeks ago after the year from hell. And now, today...we are celebrating our ten year anniversary TOGETHER.

It can happen. But understand this will take time. Like I said, I will respond to both of your posts later, when I have time because I see some very positive things there.

In His arms.

Solon, you are making a CLASSIC mistake that I don't see talked about here much - trying to use logic to argue with a WS. Your wife told you something, and you listend to the words and did not hear what she was saying. Then, you argued with her words, and won the argument, which told her that: A) you still don't understand her, and B) you do not value her opinions/feelings/thoughts - and in fact think they are WRONG. Don't think I am above this - I used to do it ALL THE TIME and still do it way too often. But I'm learning to change, so maybe I can help you along the path.

Let me re-phrase what she said in words I hope you will understand: "I feel like we have so many problems they are too many and too big to solve - I am overwhelmed, discouraged, guilt-ridden, and feel hopeless." A good response might be: "It sounds to me like you feel things are hopeless. I know it is really hard to work on things if you feel they are hopeless. It makes me sad to hear that, because though I agree we have problems, I think we can get through them, if we both work on them together. I am sorry for whatever I did to make you feel like this." Now, I know it is true she feels this way partly because she is involved with the OM, and that is not your responsibility, but you ARE responsible for the condition of your marriage pre-A. And one of the things that contributed to that was your inability to listen to the emotional message behind her words, so the response I suggested (which could easily be shortened to just the first sentence) shows you have already begun to change things. I considered adding a sentence in the proposed respnse about your willingness to change, but talk is cheap. You need to show her.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Mortarman: did you see my reply at the end of Mortarman? It slipped to a back page.

Marathonman:

"QFWFQ
Thanks.// like Mortarman , you seem to bring me back to reality..but again she said to me last night she will never come back to me..she said to me that after she told me..those five words "IDLYA"..that if she can make it too the end of the month of jan..she would live with the stress.. now its going onthe end of April and now she means it..I told her that things wont progress as fast as she wants..now she is saying the end of May at the lastest..what's up with that???"

Stop trying to figure it out. For what it's worth, she's consciously or subconsciously trying to turn her words into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let her try! Trying and failing may be her only way to pull her head out of her nether regions!

"I was very proud of myself.. didn't LB very much but . I have to forget about the OM... the F^&ker is always on my mind.."

I still have times like this.

"and it scares me that if my wife eevr comes back she will always have feelings for him and she will always be around him.."

Always have feelings for him? Well, my W still insists that whe will have feelings for RM for the rest of her life, but will she? If others here are any indication, the answer is probably both yes and no. Yes, there will be some potential level of threat of resuming the addiction if they ever get back together again, and no, because if she really learns what she compromised of her OWN integrity - that she betrayed HERSELF - she won't want those feelings back.

"as for the cards.. you would have to see the way my WW is talking and acting.. it is in her face..
she says that the main raeson why she wants to leave so bad.. is that she cant stand to be around me..she means it!! how can this be FOG!!
it all seems so clear.."

"Seems" is the operative word here. It's fog. Bank on that.

"You mentioned that your W Affair started 12 years ago.. are you still with her?.."

Yes.

"did you seperate.?"

No, though I did move into our guest house for a week and tried to do a "Qfwfq plan B" with limited contact via email last July.

"...Is she still seeing the OM?.."

She hasn't seen him since November 2001, 2 months before D-day. She called him on the phone a couple weeks ago, though. He lives in NM, we're in So. Cal. She's a project manager on a research project. She hired him as a consultant, based on his specialty in her field of research. This job is probably going to last until October, possibly with extensions, then she's planning on quitting. I still have a hard time with her "need" to talk to him herself about the work, because she had told me a year ago that she would train a coworker to deal with him, but hasn't. But it's her choice. I would prefer she choose, herself, to end contact, rather than me insisting. If she refuses, over the long term, I will want out. But I don't think she will. Again, it's all about choice. It's her choice. I have mine as well.

"I sure hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.. beacuse I am starting to run out of Gas and I'm scared of the dark... just a joke..seemed like something funny to throw in.."

Keep those coming!!! If you look up my old posts from last year (as "2long") you'll see that humor is what keeps me going, particularly at the beginning of the process. If I didn't have my sometimes-revolting sense of humor, I wouldn't have made it this "far."

"I have to continue to try to make myself a better MM.. if she does not come out of the fog.. I'll be a better person."

And if she does come out of the fog, you'll be a better person.

"I hope your right since things have not beeen good between us for a few years.. thats wht I think the chance of my marriage ever surviving and becoming a wonderful one.. is next to slim..."

I have felt the same way for years, myself. Try not to agonize over "chances." Stop worrying about the past and the future. You have no control over them. You DO have control over the present. Live in the NOW.

"and the chances of an amzing relationshp between two best freiends..WW and OM.. becoming more apparent.."

Ah, yes. THAT fear. Remember, even if you and your W were "wrong" to begin with, her R with OM is based on lies, deceit, and theft (of your right to choose all this time). At least 95% of all M's born of affairs will FAIL within 5 years. Do you think that she and her OM will be among the lucky 5%? I wouldn't bet on that if I were you.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

MM....a quick thread hijack...

John, I did read it and will respond on my new update thread tomorrow. thanks.

MM...listen to Q...he really stated what I wanted to.

I agree..thanks Q..
but her I go!!
best friends,,, they care a lot about each other..he is going noooowhere...she has told ne that he called it off,, but she is too happy... and now says what if we are back together.. it doesn't matter we are through.. only reason to believe that the EA/PA has resumed.. maybe I'm wrong.. but she is pleading for me to believe her..
If all this is fog.. I would sure hate to see her if she was in a bright sunny day.. it would be like armageddon around here..I dont see the hope.. but I trust you guys to tell me she is there for me somewhere..the biggest problem I have ids that theb OM is always around.. and the onlt way to find peace if she every comes back is to move to another province..but the province we would go to .. he was already there and moved back.. he could go there again to be near Mrs.MM..
but that is way in the future if any..thanks for the input.. keep it coming.
3ISACROWD
excuse my ignorance.. JMVHO?? what does that mean??
now...
maybe a seperation is in order and will soon happen.. the only porblem now is who goes...I am beginning to think that the best is for me to go and let her have the house.. if she is destined to coem back to me.. whether I am in the house or she is.. it wont matter.. besides financially..i would be better off to take a settlement from her and leave.. that way.. I am off on a clean slate and she has the burdens of the extar costs to live with.. will make her think nonetheless.. howver if she bring OM into the house.. maybe he will help out...You are absolutley right the fog talk is ruthless.. she has no idea what she is saying..if its real..I have been to stupid for a lo\ng time...lsy nigt she admitted having feeings for him for a few years and had never admitted it to herslf.. now .. thats why I think this is so real and not fog.. since she has had a long time to thingk about her feelkings for me.
I am helping out with the girls more and more.. I actaully do a fair amount that she won't admit to.. like tonight she left to go to a friend babu shower.. I fed the girls, gave them their bath, cleaned the house, did a load of laundry, did the dishes, read them stories and put them to bed..
Yes your are right about blocking the shots,,, like Maryjanes said.. shut up walk away when you feel like your going to lose it..
One of the things that is helping me is that I am back running pretty well full time...ran a lunch time with one of my team mates,,a nd after work with another team mate, both are women and gave me some good advise as well..I guess what I am trying to say is that the running is helping me be both a stonger and better MM.. because I am getting my self esteem back an building my confidence .. that according to the women here... is something they like in man.. So .. I get more confident,, if Mrs.MM does not come out of the fog and back into my arms,,then.. ole MM will be a better catch for some lucky lady..
Continuing to work on making a better MM.. thanks to all.. your input means the world to me..
MORTARMAN
I only hope and wish that some day down the road I will be able to send you a message filling you in with the same wonderful news...Its been a hard battle so far.. If I were to move out to you think that would ruin all chances of MrsMM coming back to me.. or should I let her go... please understand that if I stay.. it could certaiinly ruin me financially..and then I would have nothing..she will have the girls as well with her If I am not succesful in getting the temp custody..

"and the onlt way to find peace if she every comes back is to move to another province..but the province we would go to .. he was already there and moved back.. he could go there again to be near Mrs.MM.."

What if you moved to Tuktoyaktuk? Make yourself a nice ice cave by hollowing out a pingo! Would he follow you there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

JMVHO= JUST MY VERY HUMBLE OPOIN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I really feel for you , I told you I know the He!! your going through and so does most here .

TALK to LAYWER , if you move out ,well look at it in all ways before you decide . I do agree you should stay thats not waht I am saying .

But if you move out talk to lawyer , can she have OM move in? will this be good for your girls emotions .? NO and I think if expressed to a laywer he will agree tell him it is a concern . See what legal action he could take to prevent it .
LISTEN to MORTERMAN evaluation would be in order .

I know this is a weird question , but do you have a basement ? if so convert it to apartment move down there , or a garge ?

Also easier said then done take a break from it .

No talk about anything just remove yourself , tell her I do not want to talk about it right now .

When you go in circles you get dizy , sit down , and stop spinning your are alowed.

Q
that had to be the best direct hiy hit a 2x4 you have ever made...It doesnt matter where I go...its too far down the road anyway...I amliving a dream here..lets work on ole MM first.. then lets see what happens.
Lst night I got a real nivce letter from the power company saying it was my final invoice with a wopping big charge..seems mrs.MM took it upon herself to switch things over to her name..when she saw this invoice she broke down and cried.. she even hugged me and said she was so sorry.. "i didnt paln it that way".. none the less seems what she did was illegal.. and whoever did that for her at the power comm.. will have his N%TS in a ringer... I then told her thatshe is asking me to trust her.. and i say for what... she says .. yu are justified..
now this moring I call her office and discover she is on the phone with the OM.. probably discussing a new plan to get MM out of the house.
but abck to her feelings.. she says that she does not want me to touch her but yet she came over and hugged me to say she was sorry.. maybe an emotional relapse.. where she is full of guilt..

3ISACROWD
I have to talk to me lawyer before and shejsut left for the Cayman Islands for two weeks.. will talk to her when she gets back.. after the stint mrs MM pulled... I am more likely to stick to my guns and stay.. even try to get a temp custody..
as far as living in the basement.. not finished.. and my W says that is not an option..guess she jsut wants to have the OM over anytime and be as loud as she wants..
by the way thanks for the expalnation on JMVHO
appreciate it!!
ON the thing about OM moving in.. she says that tshe will expalin to the girls the moomy loves T very much and is very special to her.. BLA BLA BLA
they are kids they are going to be confused..she has no idea what she is heading our girls for...
that is why I am trying to hold all this together..but hey.. why be with someone who does not love you!!its painful.. maybe let her be happy and learn by her mistakes..idf it actually turns out to be one and not one of the lucky 5%...
just a note my wife checks things out fully... she has SH&T luck.. if she wants to she will make it work!!
this is another weekend...maybe this can turn into a great one...she has some real explaining to do maybe she will spend the weekend sucking up!! Not likely.. but hey I am allowed to dream!!!

marathonman:

Put your foot down! Absolutely NO Rat [censored] OMs in YOUR HOUSE!! If your lawyer isn't back in time to help you with this, particularly keeping the OM away from your kids, SEE ANOTHER LAWYER NOW!

That's B.S.!!! and it will hurt your kids more than you can imagine!

Please take care,
-Qfwfq
P.S. Oh, and the hug was a very good thing! Just don't get your hopes up. It is a good sign for the future, though.

<small>[ April 11, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Q..
I think the hug was a guilt thing.. she really screwed up...but now she is back to her same ole self..I questioned her this morning about having lunch with the Om and she said o she wasnt...then she calls him as soon as she gets to work and makes a joke about it "I didnt know we were suppose to have lunch today.. my husband seems to think we were." If I chose to move out it wont be too soon.. not until my lawyer gets back..but I really hope she is not that stupid to brng him in that soon.. she says that nothing is happening rght now and that what they had is over.. Until the F&*ker is gone and out of the way I will nevetr trust her..I continue to tell her that if she brings the OM in her house.. it will; screw up the girls...she thinks she can expalin tjhat they love each other.. blah blah..
I was suprized that she did hug me.. if only for a minute...does that show feeling or just sorry for doing something that screwed up?? she's not hugging me now.. back to the same ol mrs MM who wants out...trying to be good but her latest stunt has made me wonder what else she is up to..

Marathonman:

She hugged you because she loves you. ...well, maybe just 0.0002% of her love belongs to you right now, but it's there!

Again, don't try to analyze it. It won't make any sense any time soon anyway.

Again, if you possibly can, just stop talking about the OM. Since you now know you can't influence her thinking about him, there's no point in doing this anyway. So, instead, treat him as though he doesn't exist (his integrity doesn't anyway).

My W once complained, like in December, that I kept asking about how RM was "doing", and the only way that she could find out was to contact him. But then, I'd get angry because she talked to him. Well, we both know that was an excuse or justification for her contact continuing, but the upshot of all this is that I realized that the FIRST thing I needed to do if I wanted her to drop the contact was to stop giving him any "power" or "substance" by inadvertently acknowledging that they had any kind of relationship, that he even exists. Initially, I was afraid that if I just dropped the subject, she wouldn't tell me when she DID have contact. That's a risk I had to take. I remembered back to the period of time between July and November, when I stopped talking about him, or about our M COMPLETELY. I would only respond if she asked me a direct question, and she didn't want to. Or so she thought. In the end, it was her asking ME in November how we were doing that brought it all back. And it wouldn't have been a big deal if I hadn't let it become one by being argumentative. After that, she said "happy birthday" to him in December, heard his W was having an A, heard that he got an apartment, and got invited to come live with him. ...this was over a YEAR since they last saw each other! We had a couple more arguments about him after that, into January, but after that I stopped bringing him up. (I just realized that this isn't correct: We argued about him a little on my Birtday last month, but it wasn't nearly as LBing by then and I don't think I brought him up, but I might have).

She's brought him up the few times we've talked about him at all since then. And like I said, last time was a couple of weeks ago. She said she had to call him about some work that he was late sending back (which is his M.O.!!!). I didn't say anything, and didn't feel much either (except perhaps some sense of resolve if it doesn't stop eventually), but she must have interpreted my expression as one of hurt, and gave me one of the tightest hugs I've gotten from her in years. I just said "I'm just a little scared, that's all." I wish I had been more open with my emotions at the moment, because I felt a lot more than that, but I don't know if I could have expressed them adequately. Time goes on, and we continue to grow. I'm getting more self-secure all the time, and that's the only thing I really can do. We're getting along better all the time too, but I don't have any fundamental assurances that RM will be gone for good yet.

It just takes time. And perseverence,
-Qfwfq

<small>[ April 11, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Thanks Q
I sure hope there is a little love there.. because I do love her and dont want to see our family break up. I dont think that she is being completely honest with me..Its so hard not to bring up the OM.. she is now saying that I am just very jealous.. I will try again not to say anything about him or the marriage.. its going to take time for her to iron out the mess with the power company..she knows that I am pissed..Try not to LB today at all...
the funny thing about the emotions is that I am expressing them too much..I have however stopped wimpering to her.. just tell her that I love her more than anything..
Its time to take back the power..Onthe moving out thing .. if I do move out, chances of us reconciling would be less than if she did.. this is way too confusing...
Thanks for the insight not saying anything may give her a chance to sit back and take a look at it all...

Why is it that I just cant shut up...I seem to laways wany the last word..last night she went out with one of her GF.... while she was getting dressed and putting makeup on.. I asked her if there would ever be an us again and she says "not likely"... she then said that I was also making things bad for myself for thinking there was more going on then actually happened. If I am blaming her for thhings she has not done.. what an idiot I have been... but at the same time.. what am I to believe after some of the stunts. What pisses me off is that she wil talk to the OM and say .. Guess what...MM thinks that we have done XYZ... maybe we should to shut him up.. or "I didn't know we were suppose to have lunch today".. I know I am rambling here but I guess whatI am trying to say is that.. I am failing badly at everything. I am LBing all the time..and just have ro shut up more..I want to show her that I am lovable and can make a wonderful H..but I am getting nowhere..How can I tell she really is in the fog...today is a new day...I have to put forth a better effort I know, but I just get so frustrated when I dont see anything in return.
Q
I know I have to stop thinking about the OM.. but where whe works with him or talks to him every day...I feel that if there was any future..he will always be there to complicate things for MM..
yesterday.. I also said something stupid to my WW.. that I regret..I asked her.." have you ever wanted something so bad and could not have it?" .. very stupid.. raeson I asked was that I wanted her back in my life.. her feelings was yeah.. I want OM so bad and I cant have him..
got that 2x4 handy again??
enoug rambling for now.. most likely what I just wrote does not make sense but I am just venting..
I

"the funny thing about the emotions is that I am expressing them too much..I have however stopped wimpering to her.. just tell her that I love her more than anything.."

MM- You know exactly what you need to do in the short term, in addition to taking care of yourself. I'd be willing to bet you'd atleast double your chances of R if you could stop trying so hard to please her and pull back a little. Believe me, I know it's difficult (I had a rough time "pulling back") but you can do it! Be like the other MM and take back your life! Good luck....

Litchfield
Thanks.. I have it in my heart that there is hope.. she on the other hand is trying to push the seperation..although she sais it was over at New Years.. she is still here..maybe part of my problem is that I am trying to much.. you are right in MM just backing off..the main reason for all this will be to make ne a better person though.. I appreciate your words of encouragement on doubling the chance of R.. but I still have the OM to deal with.. although it is supposeably over..they are still work together and I know there must be sexual tension between them..
But gert the 2x4 out and start swinging..eceveryone is saying to forget about him..and worry about fixing me...again thanks..
now today .. my goal.. shut up, no LBm, be nice as possible..
I

Marathonman:

Shut up, already!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, you've answered your own questions. You need to stop sounding like the insecure, snivelling mm that you do right now to your W, and start showing her the self-secure, strong, thoughtful and considerate mm that you really are (you REALLY ARE, too).

"I know I have to stop thinking about the OM.. but where whe works with him or talks to him every day...I feel that if there was any future..he will always be there to complicate things for MM.."

Probably not, mm. If your M starts to recover, she'll become as disenchanted with him as you are. Believe it. That will mean one of them will have to change jobs or locations, or they'll both have to devise a means of not seeing each other if they have to work for the same company. This is down the road a ways, though. Stop worrying about it now.

"yesterday.. I also said
something stupid to my WW.. that I regret..I asked her.." have you ever wanted something so bad and could not have it?" .. very stupid.. raeson I asked was that I wanted her back in my life.. her feelings was yeah.. I want OM so bad and I cant have him..
got that 2x4 handy again??"

Yes, I do. But it's not your run-of-the-mill knotty pine 2x4 from Home Despot. I have an EBONY 2x4! (ebony doesn't float, it's too dense! And so it's more useful in these situations)

Again, don't fret. I don't know what I said, but just a few minutes before I packed my bag and left for a week last July, my W responded with "I wish I could clone myself and be in two places at once". When I asked why, she said "Isn't it obvious?" She wanted to be with both me and Rat Meat. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. But the camel was my construction entirely. I could have just as easily stayed, shut up, or talked about how that hurt to hear (if she was receptive to talking about it. She wasn't at the time). And I should have, because I wasn't ready for anything like "Plan B", though I thought I was.

Had to go to the emergency care a week later for anti-Ds. Why? Because she called me on the phone that day and I broke down a few hours later.

Take it easy, mm. YOu'll make it.
-Qfwfq

Q
Good thing we dont have ebony in my neck of the woods..although I did feel the crack..Just had another conversation with her about the future..
says that she has to get away from me...does not love me..period.. does not want any future what so ever.. aside from raising the girls in seperate houses.. with me in an apartment..
I guess what I'm trying to say is that.. by becoming the "self secure, strong, thoughtful and considerate MM in really am"..it will not change her feelings for me..It wont make her love me..that I know...it is in her eyes...although you have the experience behind youand believe there is a chance. Q she is ready to move on..when do I decide to let it go and start looking for a new life without Mrs.MM.. if we are seperated..chances of R will be slim.. by the way I like the comment on raw meat...it proves the point..tis may sound stupid so get the ebony out..
How do I show her that I am strong, thoughtfulstrong and considerate?? by not LBing? coaching required...
I