Jenny:

h'DOING! You're right! I keep getting that mixed up with "Ricky don't lose that number"!

;o)
Qfwfq

MM,

Sorry for being gone so long. Things are hectic at work the last two weeks...plus my wife's car threw a timing belt...to the tune of $1500! Welcome back, honey! Just kidding...I dont mind taking care of her...actually, that's what I live to do.

Anyway, I will post more in the next couple of days. I wanted to second the motion I think Redhat said about separating your trying to Plan A, with any legal issues. Plan A like it all depends on you. Realize what Plan A is though. It is taking what Kily said, and doing things differently...FOR YOURSELF! So, when Mrs. MM turns around in the middle of Fogland, she WILL be intrigued by the different guy she sees. Believe me...this is exactly what happened between my wife and I. I will expand on this when I post later.

But, your legal issues are different. And actually...if you will stand up for your family, your kids, and yourself, she actually will find a lot of respect for you (dont expect her to admit that though). As you know, when my wife moved out, I had custody of the kids. And if we had gone to court, I damn well would have kept custody. You MUST do as was stated before and work your butt off. Put every ounce of your strength in being there for your daughters. First off...they deserve it! Second, it will give you something to do. And third...no mother can help but have feelings for someone that is treating her children so good. As Steve Harley told me...the best thing I had going for me in the middle of all of this was my three kids!

Protect our rights. Stand up for your kids. You say your daughters are better off with their Mom. Why? Are you a bad parent? Remember, my wife was the greatest mother I had ever seen BEFORE all of this happened. But my argument through the whole thing was that she had given up that "crown" when she got so selfish in order to destroy everyone's life...most importantly those three kids. She never believed any of this. But that wasnt the point. The point was that she knew that I BELIEVED THIS! So, in my eyes, she no longer was a good mother. And that didnt go over well inside her. She needed to do some introspection after that.

Like I said, I'll get into this more later. But for now...Plan A (she aint gone yet!)...give her something to miss IF she leaves! And protect your interests. Document EVERYTHING! Every call, every conversation. Right it down. I will give you more tips later.

You dont know it (and I didnt at the time either) but you are actually in the drivers seat here. She is actually the one with the problem. She is addicted, she is destroying everyone's lives (and those kids will KNOW who did what!). She is probably doing a whole host of things out of character for her. She cannot be happy! Ask kily what it was like in the middle of the fog. They may act like and sound like they are happy...but deep down, there is a battle for their souls going on.

On our side, it is very simple. We have no battle going on insdie. We want our marriages and our spouses. If that doesnt happen, then we want to at least be prepared to move on and do better the next time. Meanwhile, the WS will just keep making the same mistakes over and over until they finally wake up.

Kily woke up MAYBE a little too late to save things with her and her guy. My wife was days away from being too late for me to take her back. But she woke up. MM...THEY ALL WAKE UP EVENTUALLY! But, the question is...will you be there when she does?

More later...hang in there. Listen to these folks. Some of them are the same ones that 2x4ed me over and over (that small crack in the ebony 2x4 is from a very hard thwack I got last fall!). Keep working things out here. Then go back into "battle" with your game face on.

I'll post more soon!

In His arms.

Mary Janes
I am so glad that you dropped by..the comment was with the most respect I could muster.. Now here goes to answer your questions.. you all migt want to get the ole ebony 2x4 out for this..because I feel so ashamed and useless..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">" How have you been working on yourself" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite lousy actually... have been doing some majot LBing about her and OM..she says that it has been over for a while and he has not been around the hospital very much.. but still I'm thinking that there is either something still going on or they have cooled it until MM is gone..
she sys I'm making things up and believing it!!
To the point.. I have not shut up...and I am so sorry .. because that is not the way I am going to show her that I love her.. that is why she says that she will be mving out with the girls very soon.. I know it is not right for her to make the girls move.. if anything I should leave and let the girls have a stable environment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> " how is counseling going" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just had the one session..she gave me a relaxation tape to listen to..which I haven't had the time or place to play it.. maybe I should go out and but a walkman.. I wil be seeing her again next week...I amn also on her cancellation list.

Cognitive therapy.. forgot to ask her..but just called one of our best friends.. both me and Mrs. MM stod up with them when they got married..she is a psych. and filled me in..she says that CT is prety standard these days and can be very effective if you work at it.. I will bring it up next visit..

Questionnnaire.. just copied it off and will do it this evening.. I will give a copy to Mrs.MM.. she may do it.. but if not.. I'll do it for her...Although she is so angry at me.. I really do not know how much more time I may have... she really wants out and is getting frustrated that we are still together..freinds are telling me to give up.. "she is not interested in saving marriage and she does not want to be with you.."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Biggest word here at MBers is "plan", so whats your plan?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My plan was to save my marriage and make me a better MM.. but as usual .. I screwed up.. with all my LBing , I have driven her further away.. she says that I don't believe what she has been telling me.. ie.. she has not had sex with him.. no touching.. just kissing and most of all that it is over between them..I have been told that time and time again with all you amazing people.. but my emotions and jealousy are getting the better of me..I REALLY NEED SOME serious direction..AND ONE HARD KICK IN THE BEHIND!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "It sounds as if you haven't read all the material on this site!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are right.. i have not read all that stuf and that is why it is taking me so long to respond today..I have actually started reading and will keep going.. its hard to go through it when I dont have a printer.. but I am doing my best.. I dont know why it took so long for me to read. since I could be further ahead.. but again.. this is one stupid and stubburn guy we are tallking about with MM..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Have you ordered a C.T. Book?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I have not but I will be first buying His needs her needs.. then I will be looking for a book on CT..

Have you done the exercises... again she gave me a relaxation tape..which is in my car.. I will go home tonight and play it somewhere...

The thing about the A. is that it in her eyes it came after she said that we were through.. she does not see it as an A.. since she stopped one relationship and started another it was perfectly okay..no shame or guilt what so ever.. she had ended the marriage and started her new life.. that is why I dont know how I can win her back.. after all the LBing and me accusing her of things she says she didnt do.. how can I expect her to want to be with me? I have dug the hole and I may as well jump in...
I hope that answers your questions Mary Janes.. I am so thankful to have you as a friend here.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it..I am just so sorry that I have let my emotions get the better of me which has prevented me from using your advise to be a better MM... time to go back and read.. read.. read..

MORTARMAN
please give me some time.. I'll be responding later as well..
Thanks
I

MM-

Are you on Anti D's yet?
We need to change the focus of your posts here.

What is it that you FEAR the most? I would like a list from 1 - 10. 10 being the least.

You are totally lost and we need to get you to a place where you are focused on the stuff that you have power over. I see that you are giving her WAY TOO much control over who YOU are. WE are going to help you change that if you are willing to explore this...

It needs to happen whether your marriage succeeds or not. Trust me, I've been in your shoes to the point of nearly committing suicide.

KILY
Okay here goes...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"are you on anti D's yet?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yse but I have forgotten to take them the past few days.. made a big mistake and told Mrs.MM last night that I had been taking them.. I spoke with one of her best friends husbands and he said that she is most likely recording everything to be used later in court.. I have not recoreded anything.. big mistake on my part.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "What is it that you fear?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here you are!! myv biggest fears
1) Being alone and having to take care of the girls..assuming that I can have them half the time... I fear that I wil get angry with them.. due to all the stresses of the breakup and being alone that they will end up hating me and wantinmg to be with their mother.. hense no more time with dad.. full custody for Mrs. MM
2) By having to pay CS...I'll be flat broke and not be able to survive.
3)Scared of not finding love again.. If I drove my wife away.. ill probably repeat myself and drive anothert woman that I love away..I tend to come across and too needy and push myself on women,, thus driving them away.. its almost a wonder why Mrs.MM stayed with me this long!
4)Not having Mrs.MM as my wife and not having her love or even AS A FRIEND
5)Feeling so low that I want to commit suicide
6)losing my job and not being able to support my girls.
7)losing my family as a unit.. this actually should have been listed higher
8)Having to move out of my house would mean that it really is over between mr and mrs. MM..
9) not having the support of Mrs. MM when asking for advice on raising girls... this toon could have been ranked higher.. due to the fact she has tolds me in the past nbot to bother her with petty things.. what I consider very important, she would consider petty..
10)losing friends...friends we had together..
Not sure if this is what you were hoping me to say.
Maybe she has too much power.. she is quite upset this evening since she now feels that we are going to be in the same house until June or July..
until everything is straightened out..I only feel she is going to get more angry by the day andlife is going to get real uncomfortable in the MM household!
MARY JANES
gave her the EN questionnaire.. she took it and went into our former bedroom to do it.. I dont know idf she finished it.. but the first couple of questions dont make things look too promising..
Like I dont want to be touched at all!!! ZERO ZILTCH times.. never by MM.. I will eloborate more when she gives it back to me...I will fill it out tonight and give it to her... is that what we are suppose to do??? Or are we suppose to discuss and talk about those needs.. looks like she is not interested in any sort of talk about our relationship!!
comments please
KILY Thanks for being there..I hope there is something I can do.. but it does seem hopeless.

MORTARMAN Thanks for the insight..Need some good tips on a real good plan A.. tips on doing things differently for myself.. I cannot imagine herc turning around and seeingan amazing guy..If she leaves she wont leave without the girls.. and If I put up a fight I be in court or have a court order to keep me away from the girls..I am good father but she'll find a way..I really screwed up this morning after a little disagrreement with Mrs.MM.. and yelled at My oldest girl for not going to her breakfast seat...she was devastated...Mom came to the rescue and made things right.. I had to eat crow..and go to my D and say I was so sorry. she gacve me a hug and said thats okay dad.. i forgive you.. MY heart was torn to shreds...That is one of the reasons why Iat times I dont want to go on.. because I dont want to be there to hurt them by yelling constantly..
If you could see my wife you would understand that there is no love..and that she is very awake.
Even our friend who is a psych.. tells me it is unlikely that she will be back.. my therapist is a pcych .. she says give up..but I am so stupid that I want to keep going and keep taking the pain. My ww says that I just am not accepting what is going on..anyway..lets just say she is asleep.. and will eventually wake up.. I am beginning to wonder if I will be there for her.. I want to love her but she is not opening up one crack..She says that the A.or whateever it was with the OM.. is over..and she has not seen him much.
anyhow I am rambling.. sorry.. but thanks for the help.. keep it coming

marathonman,

Been there and let me pitch in for killy,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) Being alone and having to take care of the girls..assuming that I can have them half the time... I fear that I wil get angry with them.. due to all the stresses of the breakup and being alone that they will end up hating me and wantinmg to be with their mother.. hense no more time with dad.. full custody for Mrs. MM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it is the highlight of my week when I have my 2 D. D needs to bond wiith their father they will seek you. Fear is good to keep you in check. When the time come you have to open up on why M is broken ... be honest to explain the fact and not to bad mouth their mom. My 2 D wants more time with me !. When WS is in the fog their are unable to love anybody else but themselves !. You are the better parent at this moment.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[2) By having to pay CS...I'll be flat broke and not be able to survive.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you check with your lawyer ?. I had to pay $3200+/month for 60-40 and $4900/month for 0-100%, either way I am broke but I could have my 2 D and be there for them and make sure their well being are taken care for. You will be surprise how resourcefull you are. exW now is pushing OM to my 2 D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> and punish them when they are not going her way !!!!. Now the young one is asking the co-parenting conselor to look into more time with me. She had it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3)Scared of not finding love again.. If I drove my wife away.. ill probably repeat myself and drive anothert woman that I love away..I tend to come across and too needy and push myself on women,, thus driving them away.. its almost a wonder why Mrs.MM stayed with me this long!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a match for everyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , there are women that like men like you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . This MB and experience will help you to care & protect your next R. This is one of LiveANew issue but he found out that he is very highly in demand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4)Not having Mrs.MM as my wife and not having her love or even AS A FRIEND</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I rather live alone happy than live together miserable or in R miserably.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">5)Feeling so low that I want to commit suicide</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, I had those moments too but ... what would your D think of you ?.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">6)losing my job and not being able to support my girls.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I lost my job and I am being creative to support myself & my 2 D. If you think this is the end of it you are wrong. You will have to deal with W for the rest of your D's life.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">7)losing my family as a unit.. this actually should have been listed higher</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have any choice ?, you might just delaying it. But by plan A'ng as humanly possible you know you have done everything.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8)Having to move out of my house would mean that it really is over between mr and mrs. MM..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Actually if you move out, you reduce the chances of plan A working thus reduce the chances to save your M. Many remmarried after Dv.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">9) not having the support of Mrs. MM when asking for advice on raising girls... this toon could have been ranked higher.. due to the fact she has tolds me in the past nbot to bother her with petty things.. what I consider very important, she would consider petty..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are books, there are parenting conseling, there are parentwithoutpartner.org to help you as a support raising your D.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">10)losing friends...friends we had together..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is your friends choice. They might take side but you could get a new friends.

Not to disrespect mrs.MM. She come across to me very controlling and manipulative type of W. What is your Plan A actions ?

-rh-

MM- I've followed your posts and haven't added much because you've been receiving great advice from some of the heavy hitters in the MB lineup. One thing I'd add though is this: You have to recognize and spend time considering that there are lots of good things about you before your plan A can be effective.

You've spelled out, in great detail, all the good things about your W and how she has reasons to want to leave, but what about you? One thing about you is that you care deeply about your family, you'd walk the plank right? What are some other things?

RH-

A TAG team event!!! Very Cool...

MM-
I'm working on this.

Kily_MB@hotmail.com if you need to vent...

I'll be back with my thoughts in a while.

MM-

MM-

First of all “TAKE YOUR MEDICINE!!!”.

YOU are on the verge of a mental breakdown. Unless you want to be hospitalized and have your girls removed, get yourself stable. You need to take care of you before you can fix this. Please trust what I say. I have been there…

You are clinically depressed and this is influencing ALL of your thoughts. It’s magnifying ALL of your fears. These meds. Will get you to a place where you don’t feel so overwhelmed and hopeless. When you feel suicidal, start writing in a journal, post here, or send email to us. DO NOT shut off. Keep talking about your feelings.

Now:

Here you are!! my biggest fears

Okay number one is actually 2 itemsThe first is the MOST significant and is KEY to your recovery.

You are afraid of BEING alone!!! Why?

Let me tell you something. I couldn’t be alone either. During my entire “R”, I would go CRAZY if I had time on my hands. I didn’t know HOW to deal with it. I would overbook my day to the point where I collapsed from exhaustion at night. Eventually, I crashed as you are now doing.

Want to know what I figured out?
I didn’t like myself. I didn’t know WHO I was. I didn’t think that anyone would love me if they knew who I really WAS inside….does this sound familiar? Sit and think about this for a while. Does it apply? What’s going on inside of you?

I’ll take on the next one in a while. Step by step we’ll get you to start thinking about YOU….

Dear Marathon Man,

{{{{{MM}}}}} consider yourself hugged, in a generic MBer kind of way.

I have been where you are. I spent time in the psych unit after discovering my H's affair and child. I have suffered severe depressions before in my life, so depression wasn't new to me, but this depth, and the rage I felt, were new to me. My H was very angry at me for checking myself in. He felt I was over reacting to what he had done. It is a sort of defense mechanism many WSs have around D-day. They don't want to face how truly crippling the pain of their affair can be for the BS. As for me, it was the best thing I ever did for myself. I then spent the next 6 weeks in a day hospital--at an outpatient psych group every day for 10 hours and sleeping at home. By that point, we had both gotten the LBers under control and it was safe for us to be together--i.e., I no longer felt like killing him. No kidding, my rage was so strong I felt like killing.

Mainly what I have seen in your posts is someone spinning out of control, unable to set goals for even the next couple of hours and meet them. It's OK, it happens in these horrible situations. But the sooner that you can get some control back over your emotions and you actions, the sooner you are going to start feeling better. Don't miss those anti-ds. If your watch has a beeper function, use it. You don't have to tell anyone what the beeping is for.

As for taking anti-ds used against you in a custody hearing. I'll bet that any judge would understand, "You honor, whether or not my wife will admit it in this court, she has been having an affair with another man. The grief and shock I suffered were truly horrible. I love my wife and it is devestating to see my family being torn apart. I think I took good care of myself by seeing my doctor and taking medication to treat the depression caused by this personal crisis. I take good care of myself so that I can be the best father possible to my children. When they are grown up and married, if the same thing happened to them as has happened to me, I would hope that they would not have too much pride to go and seek help. I think my taking care of myself is a very good model for them to learn. My depression is improving, I am in counseling and I am improving steadily."

Yes, lots of therapists are aware of cognitive therapy and employ some of the techniques, but very few people do the whole shabang. I hope you would get a book and begin to work the program on your own. It is so simple, you don't need a counselor and there is nothing so gratifying as seeing yourself as capable of healing yourself.

Don't use the mediation tape in the car!!!! Danger, danger Will Robinson!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You don't want to fall asleep and that's what happens to a lot of people when they are first using relaxation/meditation tapes. You need to get your stress hormone levels down and working with the tapes daily is a good way to do that. It also teaches you to be able to summon up calming responses in the middle of explosive situations. You might know the techiniques after going through the tapes a couple of times, but w/out daily practive you won't be able to call them up in a crisis. We have two young puppies (and I am a strict mother and dog trainer). We expect and we get good behavior. They have learned how to "heel" very well in the yard, but on Easter Sunday we took them into the woods on a hike. They were a nightmare. They are big 50+ puppies and can pull me off my feet and did. The input of all the new smells and sights was too much stimulus for them to be able to focus on the "heel" command.

Same thing for personal/emotional crisis. Even if we have built some small level of coping skills they will abandon us in a high-stress moment unless they are so ingrained they have become part of us.

Cog. Therapy also helps with anger management as you learn to understand what is at the root of anger. Anger is usually a secondary emotion in response to a first emotion that we don't want to feel. Her's your brain w/out cognitive therapy: "She is saying she is leaving. I feel terrified and all alone. EWWWWW....I hate feeling terrified and powerless so instead....hmmmmm, thinking I'll get really pissed off."

OK, after months of diligent practice at cognitive therapy, when some new thought patterns have become ingrained:

"She says she is leaving. I feel terrified and all alone. I can hear myself telling myself that I will always be alone. That may or may not be true. I may be alone. I may learn to be happy alone or a wonderful woman may come along with whom I can build a much happier life, but either way, I am OK. Hmmmm.....She's leaving me. I feel unlovable. Well, wait a minute. My marriage may be broken and she may no longer love me, but there are lots of people in the world who think I am a nice guy, who love me for who I am. My kids love me, my parents do, my friends love me. I give and receive love daily with lots of different people. Besides, this marriage might be broken, but I have learned a lot, I will be a better partner in a future relationship."

It is about managing your thoughts and emotions instead of them driving you and dictating your behavior.

Really, the books are dirt cheap at a book store. Here are links to the two I would recommend at Amazon.com:
Dr. Burn's workbook--$12.57
Dr. Burn's book-- $7.99

Also, most men don't have a very good support system for emotional trauma. The only person that they talk to about emotional issues (if they do at all) is their wife, whom they consider their best friend. (Most women, if asked, will name another woman as her best friend.) Reach out, get some real, human support face to face. We're good here at MBers but we can't substitute for a real live person. Avoid the people who say useful things like "Dump the b**ch" or "more fish in the sea." You want someone who can listen and emphathise with what you are going through.

Do you have a church? If not, and if you have no strong objections to church (such as being an atheist), maybe you should look around for one. All churches are not equal and all are not equally supportive. But many, many churches are very warm and caring places filled with people happy to share the love of God with you. Maybe "Parents without Partners" might be helpful for you. Almost everyone there has been through a divorce. I am not saying your marriage is over, but saying to your wife "I am going to a PWP meeting so I can make sure to be the best dad possible. I just want to be prepared."

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am all babble and just like to hear myself talk or the sound of my keyboard clicking away. It is easy to give advice and hard to live it.

I hope you feel better soon, with or without her. It is miserable to be where you are--depressed and possibly suicidal. OH, try seeing if there is a Samaritans hot line in your area. They do suicide prevention. Even if you aren't actively making a plan, they are happy to help as much as they can by just lending a kind ear. It helped me to vent when I didn't have a counseling appt. for a few days and I felt I was going to burst.

I am not 2x4-ing you. Not in the least. I am trying for some loving guidance and just being a little less subtle about it than I normally would be as you seem so very lost right now.

Peace,
MJ

Oh, a couple more things:

Getting free Harely books: Dr. Harley is on Christian radio 2x weekly as a guest on his wife's radio show. If you call and talk to them, you get one of their books--for free. You need to call right when the show starts or you won't get on:

radio show info

You don't have to buy books. Check out your public library. They usually have His Needs Her Needs in stock or can quickly borrow it from a different library in the system. You might really want to check out LBers, since it is where you feel you have your most problems right now.

You are not useless and you are not a disappointment to us here. You are a guy going through one of the worst things that can happen to a human being. You are very emotional and sound very depressed.

Go to K-Mart and get a Walkman knockoff. I think that they are as cheap as $20 now. Your counselor will be very happy to see that you have done your homework. Counselors are people to. It is easier for us to work with highly motivated people. (I am/was a volunteer counselor for a genetic network of parents dealing with children born with birth defects. My job was to listen, to be supportive, to put them in contact with other parents, to find literature appropriate for their situation, to enable them to take good care of themselves and their sick child.)

If you get 50/50 custody of girls in some states neither of you will pay child support.

MJ

WOW!! where do I start with you guys!!

Okay REDHAT
Lets just see how this all works out.. Mrs.MM does not want to keep the girls away from me.. when ever they are with me.. I just hope that I can be the best dad and not yell at them.. Its all about self control.. Right Mary janes... walk away for a little and then come back. My biggest fear is that she will have OM (if thgey start something again) move in and he wil try to be the father figure.. hopefullly my 2ds will be smarter.
than that and not go for it.. althiough Mrs.MM says that I dont believe her that the A is over.. I just have to believe her!!
You are right, there is a match for everyone.. I just have to remember when the time comes not come on strong.. I guess women like their independence. I have a history of scaring them away by always wanting to be with them.. That has got to change..
as for friends with Mrs.MM.. whatever happens happens..if she wants to be my friend..so be it.. but she is so angry right now.. it will be a wash.. once we are seperated.. maybe it won't matter at all.
I have to be smart about suicide.. my daughters need me and heck if I were to do anything.. and Mrs.MM has changed her mind that day..chhsnces would be quite slim that we could get back together.. *ha!
Cant change whats happening.. but the longer Im there.. the more time I have to show her... just got to get my act together..and maybe save the family... although it does not look good after the EN questionnaire...Ill get into that later!!
REDhat I was a little confused on your response to point 8... by me saying that if I were t move out that the chances of getting back together would be slim.. you said NOPE!!
please explain what you meant by that... thanks
On the friends side.. if they take sides.. they were not really friends..if they wre real.. they will still be there..
She is very manipulative..although he says that I have always been very controlling..
not sure what my paln A is now since it really looks that one way or another the end is very near.. MARY JANES I am proud to tell you that last night no LBS...even after her giving me her copy of the questionnaire..I'll get into it when I respond to your post. I have to justv shut up.. and try to be the best MM possible...but right now she just does not care.. wants nothing to do with me..
REDHHAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> thanks for the help.. I am trying to process everything and let all this set in..

LITCHFIELD
you are right I have spent time saying how good my wife WAS... you know by having low confidence and self esteem.. I have forgotten what the good points are about me.. Yes, I woould walk the plank.. Us Newfoundflanders also ahve a reputation when it come to marriages.. that we will fly the plane into the boat..as a last ditch effort..right to the last drop.
I am very kind hearted...as an example my wife knows that.. but my mouth is what hurt my marriage. Time to sit back and look at my good points...Thanks it gives me something to think about.
KILY tahnks for the email address.. maybe I may drop you a line on a more personal level..
no here goes!!
Back taking the meds.. probably the raeson why I have been feeling down so much is that I have not be taking them.. If I feel real bad I will post..or send you a note if you dont mind.. it will get me turned around.. and for that I am thankful to you all.
On the being alone point.. you too are right.. I dont like myself.. I have to get with it and find out what are my god points.. that points that make me shine..when I let them out..
I am back running full time and will run a half marathon in a few weeks.. it has been helping relieve some stress and I am looking better..also a good thing for the nest R if and when my M with Mrs.MM is over. Kily keep it coming.. I am counting on you for your insight..
And Now MARY JANES
Thanks for the Hug...it really means alot coming from a friend..when My wife has a hard time saying hello.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Mrs. MM ahs no idea what pain this is causing.. she thought that she would tell me and that everything would work out and I would accept it and move out.. just like a puppy dog.. or one stupid man.. she is the one who is a few brick short a load...and a lot of hot rocks in her head causing FOG!!
Sorry if I'm spinning out of control.. but the way she is acting is causing me to feel that all chances are hopeless..Again the runnng is giving me a chance to clear my mind and start focusing.. 2 minths ago I would not run 1/2 mile.. monday Ib ran 13..
I am sure that the judge will be very sympathetic with that story if we end up in court..but at the same time I cant give up on taking them.. I have to be balanced.
I will start using the relaxation tape asap.. just need a place to do it in private.
On the CT.. I am sure that she uses that approach.. will ask for the help especially on the angry outbursts..
Will be looking for books to help out at the same time... have started going to church .. will seek out any support there is..
I will post later to you on the questionnaire we both did.. It was not too much in MM favour I guarantee you that...
You are a god sent to me.. a real treasure...I only hope I can get my act together and get some real progress to show for all your hard work!

MARY JANES
Okay..Mrs. MM is currently in "that time of the month" so I dont know how her responses were influenced.
she statred off the first question with N/A... does not want any affection.. ever..
extremely dissatisfied with affection.. she added point E...too much affectionand I dont like it..
same for sex... great need for sexual fullfillment..N/A... does not want anything ever...same for conversation...too much...does not like conversatins we have..same for recreational comp.
points she did eloborate on was Honesty/openness..
wanting more hoesty... i will go into that later..
on attractiveness.. she added to the first point...
Was attractive me....saying she is no longer attracted.. did not eloborate
she disd say on the financial.. that I do earn enough to support them.. she changed me to us..
Domestic support she did elaborate..., saying that I did not do very much.. and go to bed when there is still more to do.. Maybe a wake up call!!
Family committment.. as well saying that I dont do very much to do with the girls IE... checking to see who has homework.. and what has to be preapred for school... again a wake up call..
on admiration...she was neither satisfied or unsat.
her note.." I dont care if he admires me, as long as he does not show the girls a negative impression of me.."not sure what that means.. I will have to get back..

I am not going to get into mine right now since it was based on us being in a marriage and what I could do better.. you can see that this woman is not interested in me... maybe by starting with the points she had a concern with.. I can start a process.

Ranking of emotional needs..

Mrs MM MM
Affection Affection
Honesty Honesty
An attractive spouse sexual Fullfillment
admiration conversation
sexual Fullfillment.. Admiration
looks like two lost souls here that have a hard time finding each other again...
Mrs.MM said to me that I was going to be angry when I read her response... I actually was not.. just very upset.. take for example.. On the sexual needs..as long as it was not with MM.. she has a great need for that need.. BOOM!
not sure if you can make anything of this. . but if so sure could use some direction... she does not want anythin form of affection of admiration...the sex thing is a given.... appreciate anything you can provide to start.
Mary janes again.,. thanks for the help..
at leat she sat down with it.. not sure if that is a sign...she was however confused with the questionnaire.. saying that the questions all did not makew sense... maybe she is not paying attention..or just really confused..
Keep the advice coming I appreciate it with all my heart..you are an angel in disguise.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

mm:

At least your W filled out the questionaire! Mine has never been interested.

About you beliving or not believing your W when she tells you she's not involved with OM now:

Stop worrying about it! Then, as you get more focused on the ENs, or whatever following "assignments" you get, you can stop thinking about this. Just know that you worrying about him (and occasionally bringing that up to your W) is a BIG FACTOR in your ability to get along at all. You need to get along.

You also alluded that you sometimes yell at your kids? Are you in any kind of anger management program? You need to cut this out completely, and as soon as possible the better.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

On #8 ... Many MBer that saved their M has to separate b/c of plan B or because of their SO moved out or because BS/WS can't stop LB'ng. Some MBer - remarried after Dv. The bottom lines is you have to control and focus on plan A the best you can and avoid LB. If seperation comes you already plan the seed of doubt on her if she does the right thing. It is not the end of it, it is just part of the laps that you might have to do it.

When is she there ?

-rh-

What is it about yourself that you don't like? Start there. Be as honest as you can. Write it down. You need to figure out this because it is something that you have control over. This is the reason for your low self-esteem.

Were you this down on yourself prior to the A? Did you look to your wife to make you complete? These are the HARD questions that will help you change EVERYTHING. Stop worrying about her leaving. There is NOTHING that you can do to change her mind if she is going to go. You have NO control over her.

Just get yourself together now, because your falling apart is a BIG turn off to her...it will only make her want to go FASTER!

No problem with emails. I only wish that at MY time of Darkness that I had support like you have found. I'm confident that things would have been completely different for me if this was the case. You have a chance, that is WHY I am reaching out to YOU...

Morning MaM,

Glad to hear that you are running again. I have a huge weight problem to conquer. Lost 40 lbs. last year, maintained it for one year (right to the pound) and then started to regain when we had an awful fall and tough winter. I was feeling trapped inside, away from outdoor activities I enjoy and our recently adopted children were beginning to tell me the history of abuse they suffered at the hands of their first parents. It all became too much and despite my best efforts to maintain my balance, I became depressed again. I went back on meds and went back into counseling. Mostly it was the kids' stories of abuse and my anger at their birth parents that triggered the depression. Anger is a tough emotion for me.I don't like it and as a consequence I try and shed it as quickly as possible. That doesn't always work, especially when there is great cause for anger. You have to find a way to sit with it, be angry, experience the anger and manage it in constructive ways. Hah! if I knew how to do that I might not have gotten depressed.

Anyway, I found some online resources for learning the basics of cognitive therapy:

cognitive distortions--the way we think influences how we feel

another site with some history of cog. therapy

By reading these site (until you get a book) you will at least be familiar with some of the terminology. None of the sites tell you how to use the therapy. For that you will need a book or a counselor. Homework is an essential part of cog. therapy. You must be willing to do the work between sessions.

Blessings,
MJ

KILY
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">" what is it about yourseldf that you dont like" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Low self esteem .. lack confidence
never think I am good enough
people dont respect me
I am short and small (in more ways then one).. although Mrs. MM has never complained .. says I have always satisfied her.. must be a guy thing then.
I dont like the fact that I cant give my family the nice things like a trip down south every year.. but if she is gone what does it matter..
I have a skin disorder Neurofribromotosis... causes cysts on the skin... pretty unsightly.. Mrs.MM says that it does not bother her.. but I am ashamed..I have also passed it on to our yougest D..mrs.. MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. It tears my heart to see the start on this little girl.. because as a young woman it will hurt her self esteem .especially when she wants to go to the beach.
Always needed her to make me feel complete...
I know there is nothing I can do to change her mind.. just take a look at the info I gave from the questionnaire..By getting myself togteher and leaving her alone.. do you think that would be a start in order to put the ship into reverse?
please stay close and walk me through. time is running out..but she is still there and most likely will be until the end of may...just have to give her a peaceful weekend with no LBs..I can do it.. but I also want to show her the love she deserves without her knowing it is happening...understand what I am trying to say???
Thanks
I

MARY JANES
Thanks for the info n CG sites.. I'll check them out this weekend.... Need your input on Mrs.MM and her responses to the questionnaire..
Is she trying to tell me something about domestic support/family commitment..
By the way my en wre in order
1)affection... which she wants absolutely nothing 2)Honesty... seems both of us need some help .. here..
3)Sexual fulfillment... wants nothing from me..ever
4)Conversation...hates it when we talk.. at least lately..have to get back together in order to have nice things to talk about..
5) admiration..she does not care if I admire her..
as long as I dont give the girls a neg impression of her..
My head is exploding!! I don't know how to get into her head or heart...where do I start with this woman..
need your insight!
tHanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay-

There is a story someone shared with me about something similar -

A king had a simialr skin problem. He was so ashamed of it that he ordered EVERYONE in his kingdom to look away when he walked by him. People stared anyway. The king became SO ashamed that he started to wear a bag on his face. Well time went on and the king looked at the world through this bag. He was very lonely because he thought that no one liked him. He decided to run away and found himself on a mountain peak where a wise man lived.
At first he wouldn't speak to this wise man, because he was afraid that the wise man would reject him. Then one day, the wise man spoke to him and asked him why he was so sad. He explained to the wise man what his problem was, and the wise man laughed. He told the man to take the bag off his face. The king was afraid. Finally the king took the mask off his face and as he looked in the water, he realized that the wise man had a similar skin condition.

The king was amazed that the wise man wasn't ashamed of his face. The wise man explained that it was what is in his heart that mattered. He encouraged the king to go back to his village. The king happily returned.

When the king walked down the main street, he held his head high as people stared at him. When they did, he smiled at them.

They smiled back....

He never wore that bag again.

My point - it's what's in your heart that makes you beautiful. Not how you look.

When you see your daughter, do you think she is ugly? How do you perceive her? What makes you love her?

Now, if you don't like yourself, how can you expect someone else to?

Your marriage is DEFINATELY salvageable. YOU need to do some work though to get yourself STRONG enough to get there. I know form what you've written that your wife LOVES you. She simply can't meet the needs that you have and is exhausted from trying....You need to start digging sir....and maybe start reading some books too.

If I can suggest something, I would start with Melody Beattie's CO-Dependant no more.

Truthfully, I've felt the same insecurities too. You know what I discovered? It was ALL in my head.
I saw a picture of myself when I was a teenager. I was a beautiful girl. I thought I was ugly and that no one really loved me. I used to slouch to hide the fact that my breasts were too small...

And about that package of yours....that was WAYYY to much information!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding.

Truthfully, Size REALLY doesn't matter. It's more about intimacy, and how you use your tool to enhance the intimacy.