MM:

I continue to have concerns about your therapist. When you are paying a therapist, he/she should be supportive of your needs and your position. The point of therapy is to relieve/cure your stress, anxiety and depression. It does not seem to be enough to know that the therapist is not a man-hater.

MM, it's your choice. I just know how much my therapist is helping me. He is trying to fully understand MY NEEDS and MY POSITION, being supportive of me. That's been so helpful to me right now. I'm wishing that kind of therapeutic relationship for you. We cannot face all of this pain ALONE. It's tremendous and devastating.

MM,

First off, I hope things go well today. An answer to a question you asked about is your wife being nice right now to set you up. Well, all I have to say is YES! Be careful. If she is nice, accept it...but do not read into it. Right now she is still running the other way. She has slowed now because she has moved out (and found a safe place to hide) and you are no longer pursuing her. Now she will try to consolidate her fantasy world and try to put it into order. If she has to be nice to you, she will now. She will try to be "adult" about all of this. She will try to get along for the "sake of the kids." But inside, that is not her intent.

First off, if she was being "adult" about this and not acting like a kid, she would be home working on her marriage. Instead, she is acting like an 18 year old selfish kid. So, dont buy into the being adults argument. Stay in your lane. You know what is right

Now, with that said, do not be harsh, or give disrespectful judgments. She is wrong...everyone but her knows that. But telling her that is not going to help you right now. As Steve Harley told me..."Do you want ot be right, or do you want to be married?" The turth has a nasty habit of coming out in the end. It doesnt need your help. But, anything from you right now will not be accepted. So no matter how true your words are, she will reject them. Get used to this because this phase will last a little while.

You are in for the ride of your life. As others said, being alone now is going to help you. The "war" is now on. Which means, now that it has all started, then the end gets nearer every day. You asked if I was condoning filing for divorce right now. No. You are fighting for your marriage right now. What I was talking about was getting everything drawn up and ready, should things get worse and it look like she is going to file. You dont want to be playing catch up. It will actually help you emotionally to know your rights and strategy that your lawyer will take if it comes to that It will be one less worry on your mind. dont make my mistake by letting your wife know about this. Just see your lawyer, have him/her draw up custody paperwork, and draw up divorce paperwork, and then hold onto them. When the time comes, then you can just make a phonecall, and he can file them that day. It is called being prepared. Once you have that prepared, then you can concentrate on everything in confidence, knowing that even if it goes bad, you know how it will all turn out.

It is good you are staying in the house. Try to keep it the same as possible, for your kids...and for your wife when she comes over. Remember what I said about psyops? Pictures of good times, HER house looking like she had it, etc will bring out feelings in her for the "better" days. she wont let you know she has those. sShe will even try to deny them to herself for awhile. But each interaction with her is like slowly turning the heat up on the frog in the pan. Eventually, the "awakening" will happen.

Yo usee, once I started getting with the program, had my legal ducks in a row, started improving myself...strange things started to happen. At first, she was relieved not to hear from my whiney butt anymore But a few weeks later, the silence was deafening to her. So, she began to call more, wanting to talk to the kids...but inevitably trying to get me into a casual conversation. Since I was in Plan B at the time, I would not allow it. This just made her more uncomfortable. all of the changes I made to myself in Plan A...all of the things I did, all of the psyops I had done had built up in her subconscious. So, when I finally went to Plan B for good, the silence from me was filled with memories, lost hopes, and the OM trying to meet needs that he couldnt possibly meet. And so a woman who had left and started an affair because she was lonely and afraid, was now more lonely and afraid than she was before. And she had gotten everything she had thought she wanted (me gone, alone with OM, her own place, no more interaction with me, half the stuff split with her, etc). It was at the point of everything being built up, and then her left alone with OM and all of our memories and my Plan A work, that she woke up and realized (in my wife's words)..."what am I doing?" She was sitting alone in her apartment one night. I had just brought her dinner the day before, because I had gone back to Plan A when she started interacting with me and showing me she might want to reconcile. The OM was out of town. My wife had previously been sick for a week, and I stayed home from work and nursed her everyday. I brought her dinner. When I went back to Plan A, I put flowers in her apartment constantly (this pissed off the OM...kind of worked twofold <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I was on a full court press.

The result? Okay, we had gone from D-Day with me being whiney, angry, and pursuing. To Plan A, where she had moved out, but I continued to try to work on me and she began to notice. I kept engaging her, especially in family stuff. I did little things, like bringing Thanksgiving dinner to her with the kids at her work. All little things that began to build. Then, when I was sure I had built up enough "chits" and it was evident that she was firmly implanted on the fence (cake eating), I went to Plan B in December. This pushed her off at first...and right into the arms of the OM. She was angry and tore off to be with him...she even began to counter file for divorce and went off to Florida to be with him and his family right before Christmas. Things seemed to be worse than ever…and inside, I had all but given up.

But little did I know that the plan worked! All I had done before to improve me, the psyops, the showing that I was fully capable of being Dad with or without her, all of it…all of it had built up in her. When I pulled it all out from under her, all she had left was memories…and the OM. At this point, the OM was no longer fantasy man. He began to have warts. And the life she had before, with me and her family, began to look like it was slipping away.

So, when the full court press went back on with Plan A in January, the OM was all but done for. It still took three more months to get her home. But, everyone involved could see the writing on the wall. She was going to come home. He was never going to be able to be what she needed. All my actions with the flowers, dinners, taking care of her when she was sick, just solidified what she was feeling in her heart again. "What am I doing?" "I have everything I thought I wanted…and I still feel lonely." She began to understand again why she missed me…why she HAD to talk to me, to be with me. It angered the OM that she talked to me so much there at the end. But even he could see that it was me she wanted to talk to, to be with.

What I am saying MM is this is a process. You must go to Baghdad to get home. You have finally taken off on that journey this week. It will be rough, and some times you will get discouraged. That is why I say to get your plan together now. Do not let others talk you out of this. Stay on plan, and come here to vent, for support, or help. When it is time, then you will go to Plan B…or later Plan D if things don't work out. In many ways, things are going to be a lot more painful for your wife than they are for you over this. She is fighting the odds…she is fighting God…she is fighting even human nature in these things. In order for her to make it away from you, it will cause her a lot of pain. Let her do it.

In the end, she may be surprised to be back home with her family and you…and wonder what happened.

In His arms.

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MORTARMAN
Thanks again for the inspiration.. I have no intent of totally giving up on my wife and family.
AS Kily has said in the past.. my WW is saying the things that she said..but one thing concerns me.. While I was in theb hospital,my ww came in and basically said that "I have no guilt for what you did..and this does not change anything, I am still leaving you!!"
This is fog talk right??
I am putting my wife in Gods hands and leaving it to him to bring her home..I will continue to Plan A the best I can.. no LBS no talk of RAT MEAT...just be civil...She can try to be nice in the hopes of buttering me up .. but it wont work.. evrything 50/50..as for the house she already broke up the family and destoyed my heart.. she is not getting the house...if I can make things work I'll keep it!!
Not sure what I can do to bring her flowers or a meal.. that would seem too much like me pleading.. and we don't want that right...
so please tell me .. what can I do to make those deposits in the ole love bank without her realizing what i'm doing???
Thanks
I

Marathon Man:

Read MortarMan's last post to you again very carefully. He has given you some wonderful advice.

MortarM:

I don't want to butt into MM's topic but I just want to tell you how helpful you are being with me. I hope you will listen MARATHON because MORTAR's experience with his WS is happening with me. I have been using MORTAR's approach and thought process and it has been helpful.

I'm doing well modified PLAN B after doing a wonderful PLAN A. WS is struggling to fix up his fantasy world in his condo, the life he thought that he wanted. I've made all these PLAN A changes, have refused to fall into his traps to get me to LB and WOW is he frustrated. I think fantasyland is not looking so wonderful.

I say out loud to him that I'm working on being the most beautiful person that I can be, especially SPIRITUALLY. It's true though. I'm trusting in the LORD and staying away from the evil spirits that have caught my WS. He is becoming confused by his new attraction to me which had been gone for the last few years.

When I strictly followed the advice of the MB veterans during my PLAN A, I did a lot better. Read my old posts in January indicating how I was struggling. I goofed when I left the board and became controlled by my WS. Now I'm getting back in control.

MortarMan:
If you have time, please read about my experience in URGENT HELP NEEDED. I would love to obtain your feedback and assistance. You have excellent insight.

MORTARMAN
Going to Mediation this morning..dropped off my oldest D after shoopping for a Bday present for one of her friends..I think I may have done a double wammy LB .. first I rubbed my ww wife arm.. just showing affection ... her respose... " a snide " DON'T TOUCH ME".. I responded with "I'm sorry I'll leave that for you know who..." she did not say anything to that.
I am trying to continue with plan A for now..and trying to be the best MM for MMand the girls. Once I bring the info to my lawyer from the meeting today ,I will ask to proceed with paperwork for a D..
I know that it has only been a few weeks since she left.. but it has been a seperation since New years.. she has no feelings and is showing no sign of being sorry for what she has done...
How Long do I let this drag on and how long do I hop... I look in her eyes and see that it's over..
when do I throw in the towel? the pain is just too much.. I know that the odds for her and RAT MEAT are slim.. but it kills me inside to think that she may be into a PA with him, although I have no evidence.. Mortarman, I am in Canada and in my province there is no fault divorce.. she can be Scr**ing ten guys a day and there is nothing I can do about it! I have read Hebrews 10 a few times .. what is it trying to say.. How can I believe that God is going to lead her back?

MM I have been following your posts for quite some time now and In my opinion you have done everything you could to save your marriage unfortunately your WW has not responded to it. My X and I seperated for 8 months and at times I thought it was going to work but in the end I just couldn't take the uncertainty in my life anymore it was effecting me and my children so I ended up filing for the D and as painfull as it was at first when I look back at it now it was the best thing not only for me but for my children because we could start making a new life for ourselves again.
God Be with you

Carl

MM,

I've been reading your story for awhile.

Not to throw a wrench into this because Mortarman has been given you some good advice but . . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is good you are staying in the house. Try to keep it the same as possible, for your kids...and for your wife when she comes over. Remember what I said about psyops? Pictures of good times, HER house looking like she had it, etc will bring out feelings in her for the "better" days. she wont let you know she has those. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may beleive that everything will stay the same -- that she's so much a part of your life NOTHING that she contributed you will ever change ... in her mind she is that valuable to you and will always be.

sort of like "You never change anything because your pining for her and she was so good for you that even if she moves on you'll always be there, she'll always have a place."

Changing a few things may set up her ire and sense of territory. This is afterall "HER HOUSE" too....

I'm not saying change what Mortarman is telling you -- because what I said to do could also go the other way in getting her to want to take the house from you ... but realize that a sense of territory is also important to women and that usually applies to the house

(It may not have happened in your home but many women just come all undone when MIL comes over and starts rearranging the house -- territory)

just something to keep in mind

way2

Well here I go.. just got back from Mediation..
Once I told her that I want to keep the house.. she lost it!! and got very upset.. I know how much the home means to her and how much she wants to be back..but I want a house as well..During this session she also said that there was no way she was coming back and that it is definitely over. so here I am..at a very serious crossroads..
this is the end.. no use trying to save and get her back..I mentioned to her about RAT MEAT andshe said that she was not seeing him... still a BIG LIE.. since needs someone to fill those needs and she is neglecting me fully..maybe if I had told her this morning that she could have the house, she would have begun to be a little more inviting.. looks klike I just hammered the last nail in the hopes of getting my marriage back in gear..I don't want to sound hopeless.. but the writing is now clearly on the wall..
I will contactc my lawyer to see what is the best way to proceed.
Comments!!

mm:

Please reread Mortarman's post 2 you at least a hundred eleventy seven more times. Okay?

Good. Now, you have NOT nailed the last nail in your hopes. By insisting on keeping the house, you have done a LOT 2 lay the foundation work 2 save your M and family. Stop thinking otherwise. Your W is tweaked because her "plan" isn't going 2 work. Her plan has 2 be 2 get any reminders of her life with you out of her head, so she won't feel guilt for what she's done (she'll be ignoring her responsibilities). By keeping the house, you've blown her plan 2 smithereens.

Good for you, mm. Now all we have 2 do is get you 2 shut up already about the OM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

MM,

Sorry you have to go through this...but her reaction is to be as expected. What else did you think she would do? Remember what I said...it will be awhile until you notice any appreciable change in her. Stick to your guns. She does not want you right now. We all know that. The fog will continue to make her believe this. Let this go for now. Concentrate on getting your life together and making changes you know you need to do for yourself. Then, when she is ready, you will be ready also.

On the divorce issue, have your attorney get things ready. Get everything lined up. But do not file yet. It is not time yet. If she goes to file, then you file immediately. until then, hold this back.

The house issue is a good boundary. Do not give in. As Way2 stated, it is her territory and she wants it back. The problem is she forfeited her right to be there when she walked out. She knows the way to get it back. Later, she will realize this. Except in mediation, try not to get into arguments about this. Treat this as a matter of fact.

What Way2 talked about is very true, not only with the house, but with all other psyops as well. There is a fine line you must balance. Part must be enticement, part must be "pain." What I mean by this is that you must balance (using the house as an example) enticing her, which would be her seeing the house and her things that might still be there. It will create a sense of wanting. At the same time, making some noticable changes to the house will create "pain," as she sees "her" house moving on without her. And this goes for everything else.

While in Plan A, especially in this early stage, your are about creating boundaries. She knows you are weak right now, and she is pressing to get everythign she can while you are defenseless. Establish lines that you will not allow her to cross. You have a good start with the house. When you touched her arm, she recoiled. This is not the time for physical or emotional connections. Touching, hugging, flowers, etc will not work right now. She is in take mode, and until her advance is checked, all the flowers in the world will not help.

Right now, the best thing in Plan A for you (and her) is for you to establish boundaries, and to start working on you. Leave her alone. She is a long way from "pulling her head out." The opportunity will come later for you to do active things to promote love. Right now, if I had to put it in one sentecnce, you have to prove her wrong. Prove her wrong about the person she has created in her mind, whether it has been true or not. Prove her wrong about how you will react to all of this. She will be creating you as the villain...and when you turn out not to be as she expected, she will become very angry and frustrated (as Mimi talked about). As she gets frustrated, you will gain strength from this. And that will frustrate her all the more. She will see the changes in you, and wonder what is going on (a new girlfriend?). She will see that you arent performing for her...that you really have changed in many ways. And those changes appear to be permanent. And she will get more angry and frustrated. And when you dont respond to that anger and frustration, she will feel hopelessly lost in the world she has created.

Once she reaches that point, it is THEN that you will have your opportunity to influence make the efforts to get her home. But MM...that is a long way off. You have a lot of work to do. Once she reaches the point of hopelessness, she will then try to seek out answers. Only then will she even attempt to come out of the fog.

On the issue of God's promises, remember what I said? Get one of those books that list all of God's promises. Read it daily. They are promises from God Himself! Do you think He didnt mean them? That you and your wife are the exception? If your wife is saved, then He has promised to never leave her or forsake her In Hebrews 10, it talks about rebellion. Only a saved person can rebel. God is very clear in this passage that He will not let His children stay in rebellion. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." MM...that is your wife. She is a child, rebelling against her father. He will not let that go on long, without bringing out the belt for a spanking. Why does He do that? Because He loves your wife too much to let her continue. She may think she is fighting to get away from you, but she is actually fighting Christ. You think she will "win" that battle? Eventually, if she stays in rebellion, you may have to take her to the church and she may have to be declared spiritually dead so that you can move on (1 Corinthians 7, I believe). But for now, let God have her. He promised to take care of her. He promised to discipline those that rebel against Him. The question is...do you believe His promises?

I think I will post later this week on this subject (give it it's own thread). Once I got back into the Word in November and really delved into this, it made all the difference in the world. I was able then to see god working on my wife. I could see her discomfort. I could then sit back, and almost in some "sick" way, watch with some enjoyment as my wife was put through the uncomfortable and painful process of discipline from God. Justice was prevaling.

MM...you sound stronger today. But do not be defeatist. The war has just started. You havent even improved one thing for you yet. There are many more battles to fight. Let God fight them with your wife. You get your act straight. Fix and change the things that you know you need to in order to be a better husband to your wife, or some future wife. Do that now, so you will be ready.

The first thing is get your legal things set. while doing that, I want you to make a list of the things that you KNOW you need to change about yourself. Then come back here, and let's see if we can get a plan on how to change them.

Everything is going as expected so far.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for the advise..but the more I think about it.. the more I believe that she shouldbe in the house.. why.. because I when I look at it..I don't think I can afford it!! and neither will she when it comes out in the wash...
By moving out, it would give me a freash start with little debt..she will buy me out.. This morning she was so upset when I told her that I'm keeping the house. It surely came accross as a major LB and the last thing I need is for her to come back and not let me contact the girls.
If I was to give her the house and we are meant to be together wouldn't she come back reardlaess of where I am??

Marathon Man:

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Read Mortarman's posts again and again. Do exactly as he says. Do not allow yourself to be controlled and manipulated by your WS. She is in a FOG and just looking out for her own best interests. I have been where you are Marathon and did not listen to the warnings of veterans here.

Do exactly what Mortarman says. Keep the house! It's really important to gain her respect. That will make you more loveable.

Listen to this world. Don't get caught up in hers. Its an alien existence.

Mimi,

Ditto here!

MM,

If it is a financial strain, think about what options you have to keep it. At least for the next year. You want to make no big moves or changes right now. Anything other than financial strain, I would not even entertain getting rid of the house. And certainly, do not let your wife have it and you move out. If you have to, sell it.

This is a battle that is going to take awhile. And it is going to hurt, even financially. If you need a second job to help out, get one. you have more time on your hands now anyway.

If she is in mediation with you, one of you will have to be out of there, with the other buying the one out who stays. Make her buy you out. This will addthe needed pressure to her. Added to that, as she writes that check to you, she will know that it goes to a house she no longer owns or lives in.

This is not an LB! Draw your boundaries right now. That is all you can do in regards to her. Get your list together of things you need to work on. And we will start with that.

You are beginning to set boundaries. Do not let her cross them. You dont need to be mean or vindictful. Just state your case, and move off of it. After the dust settles in a couple of weeks, we can begin some small psyops to begin helping her see the light. But again, you cannot change her. You are changing yourself. We just need to make that when it comes to your wife, you present the best possible MM to her everytime she sees you. But for now, you have to earn her respect. Rolling over and giving in just aint going to do it.

In His Arms.

MORTARMAN
I am really thinking about letting her buy me out.. the financial strain is going to be very hard for her...she does not know how hard!!
By me moving into an apartment it will distance us and at the same time she agrees for at least six months we will alternate weeks with the girls.
I know that I cannot afford the house alone and it will be a burden.. being alone will also be difficult when the girls are not around.
The only left for me to do is to continue to work on myself for me and the girls..leave my wife in Gods hands and see what happens..
Now what do I need to change about me:
1) angry outbursts/arguing
2) Low self esteem/confidence
3) Needy/ clingy
that is a start.. me in a nutshell
the angry thing is what got me in trouble with my wife..wht she left..I was not filling those ENs..
commnets and direction please!

Please read MORTARMAN's last post to you again about THE HOUSE. Please listen.

I'm confused... If she buys me out then the house would be hers and she will have the added financial strain..If I stay she will just buy another house somewhere else..she has already said that.
If she gets back in the house and after paying me a settlement and realizes that it is hard wouldn't she not come looking for help??

THe main thing right now is to do what is BEST FOR YOU . Don't make your decision based on what might happen in the future. Don't worry about what she says that she is going to do-like buying a house somewhere else. Let her go ahead and do that but there's no guarantee that she will. Also, I've learned that there are no guarantees about the future. Unfortunately, she may have figured out a way not to be in a financial strain. Who knows what those aliens have cooked up? I know all what your WS is doing and saying is unbelievable to you. WSes have been abducted by aliens. They talk in babble. They are not reasonable. We have to be the level-headed, sane ones as hard as it is.

Work on YOUR PLAN. I promise you she will notice and it will BLOW HER MIND.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

mm:

Even if you weren't dealing with your M problems, there's simple math at play here.

*Currently, you're paying for 2 places, the house and the apartment (since you are still M'd, this is a strain on BOTH your financial sitches).

*If she buys you out and you get an apartment, you'll have THREE places 2 pay for for a while. Think about it. Security deposits, first and last month's rent, phone, cable TV for the tykes. Things like that can put you in2 a debt sitch so fast it'll make your head spin. I know firsthand. Since the fire at our house a year and a half ago, we've moved 6 times. each place we rented needed deposits and cleaning after we left. The insurance paid for most everything, but only after the fact (we're still waiting 2 be reimbursed for a 6K deposit we put on a house we moved out of over a year ago!. It doesn't matter that, on PAPER, you're not spending any more than you otherwise would. Cash flow.

*If you stay in the house and she buys another one, will she be able 2 qualify for the loan? I doubt it, unless she has a really good job. You're still M'd, so unless you've NEVER been on the title of your present house or paid any of the down or payments, she won't likely be able 2 qualify for a second home.

Keeping the house is not being mean. It's not LBing. It's the most stability you can offer your family in this trying time. You all need all the stability you can get right now, though she doesn't think so (because she doesn't WANT 2 think like you're a family).

Stay put. Stay strong. Work overtime if you have 2. But even if you can't make the payments, it takes a while for the bank 2 foreclose on you. I'm not suggesting you default, but you do have more time than you think.

Please stay home. Take care,
-2long

MIMI/2LONG
Thanks to you both for posting...Mimi.. where do these aliens come from and why dont they just leave us alone..I will do what I feel is best once I talk to my lawyer and banker.
I cannot control what she is doing you are so right on that..so concentrate on me..
2LONG.. this is so scary since I'm playingwith my future here.. The main reason why I want to kewep the house is to entice her back into the marriage..but as I write this..whty am I trying yto bribe her into doing that.. she has to want me and not the house. In the end it really does not matter who is where, only that she sees a different MM and would like a new life with me..
Please tell me I'm making sense!!

YEA! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!

If you let her have the house, there is no guarantee that she will come back. I've learned the hard way about that type of bargaining in my mind.

Ultimately, we can only control ourselves.

Try reading CODEPENDENT NO MORE. It teaches how to respond to a partner who is in an addiction. That's what is going on with our WSes. Until they decide not to take the drug offered by the A, we are POWERLESS in our effect over them.

I gave my WS the book SURVIVING AN AFFAIR which he still has by the way. He said "None of this applies to me." What does that tell you about their thinking?