KILY
Thanks so much for the words of wisdom.. I knoww that I am a truly amazing person..my running team wasfloored by the easiness inmeeting and talking to people in a foreign country. I havve to start loving me and knowing whats in my heart..Why are there tears in my eyes.. thanks so much.
I have to start loving myself.. you are right... any tips on finding myself and the true me?.. On my Daughter.. I do love her.. it doesnt matter.. an when she grows up .. I'll teach her this story as well.. when she says dada what wrong with me...
there is so much I want to show my wife...and help her love me again.. KILY... what makes you think that my marriage is salvageable??? she cant stand to be around me... HOw can you tell that she still loves me..what she says is that she does not hate me... just that she does not want to be around me..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to do some work though to get yourseld strong enough to get there.... you need to start digging...she simply cant meet thosew needs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">please elaborate.. esopecially on the point about her being exhautsed.. she is not trying to meet any needs... am I coming on to strong to her???
You know .. alot of what I think has been going on with the OM.. mrs.MM says that it is all in my head.. Im making up stories and beleiveing them..
she says that is has been over for a while... is it time that I at least beleive her and give her the benefit of the doubt??
I'll look for the book... thanks for the crack.. but be careful what you ask for..Gotta stop being so insecure... It has been said time and time again.. here that you women like men who are confident... I have to get mu act together and build that confidence and bring MM to an amazing new level... can you help me there as well..
again.. How can you tell that she still loves me..
I am convinced she is on the border of hating me..
Kily... you have been truly wonderful to me...and from my heart thanks... keep the advise coming.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MM-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> any tips on finding myself and the true me?.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Start looking...

The answers are inside, underneath all of those fears that you listed. The meds. and the IC will help you get there. It takes time, patience, a commitment to get there, and faith.

This is BIG:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On my Daughter.. I do love her.. it doesnt matter.. an when she grows up .. I'll teach her this story as well.. when she says dada what wrong with me...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mrs.MM says that it does not bother her.. but I am ashamed..I have also passed it on to our yougest D..mrs.. MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. It tears my heart to see the start on this little girl.. because as a young woman it will hurt her self esteem .especially when she wants to go to the beach.
Always needed her to make me feel complete...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay - this is a leap here, but just go with me...

Your daughters condition doesn't matter, why? Because you LOVE her. Why should it matter for you? You are ashamed of the way YOU look. You passed that on to your daughter and you know what, right now you are teaching HER to be ashamed of this too.

Look at yourself with different eyes here. Look at yourself with the eyes of a parent. Look at your daughter, then look again at you...there's no ugliness there...just someone that was really HURT by other people's ignorance. Don't let your daughter be the victim that you became. Teach her what beauty really is. Learn that for you first...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why are there tears in my eyes? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because YOU are now at the top of the mountain peak and you have met the wise (wo)man. For the first time ever in your life, you see that things can be different. You realize that maybe, just maybe, there's NOTHING wrong with you...It's time to think about taking that bag off your face.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> please elaborate.. esopecially on the point about her being exhautsed.. she is not trying to meet any needs... am I coming on to strong to her??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can I explain this? It's really hard to put into words...

Let's start here:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MM says not to worry .. but she does not know how it feels to look at yourseldf in the mirror.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she doesn't, but She knows what it's like to watch you rip yourself apart over it. She knows what it feels like to watch you look at yourself with self-loathing and not be able to reach you to let you know that there's beauty there that SHE sees. She knows what it's like to watch you BLAME yourself for your daughter's condition...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Always needed her to make me feel complete </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO!
This is where the exhaustion comes in. What are YOUR expectations of your wife. You do not feel complete unless she is there. How has this attitude affected your M? What types of burdens have been put on her to make you feel complete? What happens when she can't meet those expectations?

Do you see where I'm leading with this. YOU can change yourself. It doesn't MATTER if her A is beginning, ending, or never happened. THese things need to be fixed in YOU in order for you to be WHOLE! Once THAT happens, it will ALL fall into place for you.

She ran because she wasn't reaching you. Your pain was too deep and you either shut her off, blocked her out, or needed her so much that you were suffocating her. When you lose your identity, she lost hers too.

The A was her way of trying to "fix" everything. She wants her family, she just doesn't know HOW anymore...

KILY
Thanks wise woman...I have to beleive in myself..know that I am an amazing person,,and worthy of a look..that will help build my seld esteem confidence.. and on and on...thansk for the kindness.. I will teach my daughter that it does not matter what on the outside its whats inside..heard that before but didn't pay attention.. this goes back to childhood...
now on the topic of mrs MM and her affair... she was fed up with me after her saying that I treated her like garbage for the past few years...although the affair with OM was shortlived.. with kissing only.. so she says..
it was a result of her saying that her marriage with me was through.. so no guilt // perfectly okay to proceed.
I have to back off on her and start treating her like this never happened(assuming that it is really over).
Change myself...make me whole..and it will all fall into place...this really is not so much about me needing her so much as was the way i treated her...that has to change.. fast!!
If the A was her way of trying to fix things..
what do I do next.. you have been very inspiring...do go away..just keep coming with the advise,,
But please answer this .... how do you think that she still loves me .. when all I get is get away from me .. and I cant wait to be in a peaceful house without you.. and I want to make love but not with you..ect.. am I missing something here..
Thanks so much for your help.. time for me to go inside MMand dig out the best guy in the world..
I know mrs MM and Mr.MM are meant to be together.. I just have to get her to slow downand look back at who wshe is missing..

I was a WS remember....I still LOVE x.

The problem is that now she is in a FOG...you've heard about that, right. She's ANGRY because of issues that SHE has....now you see that you have issues too. When a WS is in the FOG she is completely self centered and will do ANYTHING she Damn well pleases because it's all about her. She's punishing you, blaming you, and basically forcing the issues because she didn't know any other way.

If she didn't love you, she would have already divorced you...She wouldn't have gone through the trouble of sneaking around, lying, etc...In her mind she was protecting you from pain...that's the twisted mind of a WS....

Her feelings are buried WAY beneath the ANGER. Do not ignore the A...just change your focis on to something you have control over...YOU.

KILY
She is still here because we have little money..for her to just take off.. she has been secretly looking around for apartments and houses..once we split to assets she will be on her way..With your points on her being in the FOG and having issues..do I just let this run its course..and let het sort things out. Its seems that a seperation is what she wants.. no questions asked.. The A happened after she said she did not love me ( so she says)...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Her feelings are buried way beneath her anger, do not ignore the A (Affair? Anger?) just change your foucus.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If her feelings are buried deep .. what is it going to take to get her love out... she hangs around with divorced women at work.. all I'm sure are planting stuff in her head..what next??
thanks

fog or no fog.. I am so torn by all the crap thar has happened with her.. she is so cold toward me.. after all the LBs...which were a result of my being frustrated about all the crap about Ratmeat and her wanting to break up.. she still has feelings for him even though she says he called it off. I cant go on trying to think that there is a chance.. I am just setting myself up for BIGGGGGGG letdown.. today she says I am not interested in you... I dont love you.. get on with it!! face it we are not going to be togther.. as soon as I find somewhere.. me and the girls are gone!!! I just want some peace and quiet away from you!! I know that she is waiting for RATMEAT to leave his girlfriend and family.. so she can start soemthing with her knight is shining armour...This really has to be a fog..since she says that this guy has been her best friend for a few years.. she know says that he is the only one who understnds me... she has no idea what kind of scumbag he is.. not the first time for him to screw around..after all my LBs if she were ever to come out of her fog..and see the light.. she still won't be looking at me as the man she should be with.. so I guess what I am trying to say is. I have accepted that it is over..and time to move on...Kily if you are there or Q or Mortarman or Mary Janes...I feel that the dream is no over!

MM-

If you don't calm down, You ARE going to lose your Marriage. A is always an abreiviation for Affair.

Those words are TYPICAL WS words. I USED them myself! I told X 11 times to move on and find someone else. I told him that I was NEVER coming back!!!

GO BACK AND READ WAT's guide to WS's. I will look for it and bump it for you if I can find it.

I'll adress more later

MM,

Come on man! Why is it you continue to think your wife is different from any of the other WSs? Kily is telling you that she did the exact same things, said the exact same things. So did Mrs. Mortarman. So did ssooooo many that we have read about on here. If it werent so tragic, it would be hilarious how WSs really are just clones...there is really nothing new in their behavior.

Your marriage is over if you want it to be. No one will blame you for wanting it to be over. but dont listen to that "alien" masquerading as your wife. She may look serious, sound serious, and even act serious. She may mean everything she says. But she is not in her right mind. Listen to Kily. She knows. My wife said ALL the things yours is...and she meant it! Where is she now? Home rebuilding her life with me.

MM...when you decide to have some faith in the plan (and more importantly...in God), then you will have peace. And then, the odds are, your wife will be home. Until then, you only make matters worse for you, your wife and your daughter. If I could tell you that I have seen a crystal ball and KNOW for sure that your wife will be back in your arms in the next six months, would you change the way you are acting toward her? If God Himself told you that He will bring her home soon, wouldnt you just look at your wife and hear her statements as just ramblings of someone that doesnt know what they are talking about? Of course you would.

Ratmeat has less than a 5% chance of ending up with your wife. If anyone should be worried, it should be him. With you sticking to the plan, odds are, she WILL come home. So, tell yourself that your odds are better, that she will be home (you just dont know when). And then act like it. Ignore the rantings of the alien. Stay focused on the endgame. When you do that, it will be the beginning of the end of this nightmare. For both of you.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN/KILY

She is saying that either she or I have to leave very soon.. I did some major Lbing yesterday about her and RATMEAT...she says that its over and nothing going on.. says that I have to believe her.. If I move out take a settlement from her.. are there still chances of us getting back together? or should I try to convince her to at least stay for a while before she moves out.. if she does she takes the girls which will throw them way out of sorts..I have seemed to have lost the faith in God and have not prayed very much.. I sure hope its not too late! I really screwed up this weekend when I had a chjance to show her some love.. Please take a look at my comments on her conmpleting the EN Questionmnaire and give me your comments...I dont know why I keep on talking about this guy,.. when I am the real problem that our marriage failed so often in the past by not treating her like a queen.. I was the one that drove her into the arms of another man...How can I convince her that moving right now is not the best thing for either of us to do..
How do I get her to step back and open her eyes??
I want to beleive that she willl be back inmy arms.. its been almost 5 months and she has not left.. but now she is serious...I just don't want to get my hopes up and then have big letdown when she does not ask me to come home or her not come home if she moves out...I will try so hard to keep the faith...and start to pray so hard again..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marathonman:
<strong>MORTARMAN/KILY

How do I get her to step back and open her eyes??
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be brutally honest: your one and only chance is by changing your behavior. It is the only thing that you have control over.

Every day you come here and tell us about loud arguments and LBing (on both your parts). Well, she is not on Plan A, she doesn't know much about MBers, but you do. If you can't calm down then a separation might be better in the short term. All you are doing right now (by fighting with her) is convincing her that she is right in her decision to leave the marriage. She has predicted your behavior (angry and loud) and you are proving her right every single day.

Have you asked your doc to add in a mild tranquilizer as well as the anti-depressant? There are some newer ones out there that are not as addicting as the old benzodiapems (Valium, Xanax, Klonopin). It really sounds as if you need some relief from your anxiety. I used three meds in the wake of D-day, an anti-depressant and two anti-anxiety meds. I successfully got off all three of them and the anti-d was the most difficult to wean myself off of. If you don't have addiction problems, your doc might agree to give them a trial.

I am sorry things are still so hard. Get your mind off RM. In fact, believe it or not, stopping calling him names (even in your mind) is one good way to stop feeding the anger--again that cognitive therapy stuff.

You are feeding your own anger and anxiety. Yup, they are natural reactions to a loss or impeding loss (your marriage, your intact family, her leaving). There is nothing wrong with experiencing these emotions, but you are now weeks and weeks into this and they don't seem to be diminshing any. It is what you (or any of us do) with our emotions that becomes cause for concern. You feed yours by allowing you mind to stay trapped in a vicious circle that then allows the strong uncomfortable emotions to grow, the more they grow, the more of a life of their own they take on.

Work on your prayer life, get some extra counseling. Working on spiritual submission to God helped me to trust that I was going to be OK in or out of our marriage. Praying for OW (not for her to "win," but for her spiritual, emotional and physical health) was a really hard thing to for me to do, but it was a good spiritual exercise. We are commanded to pray for our enemies. Christ prayed on the cross "Father, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That one is simple, easy to remember and might work for you. Please remember that although anger is not a familiar emotion for me, I had as much rage in the beginning as you seem to have. Anger control/management is possible for most of us, although I think men might have a harder time because of all the testosterone running through them. Hey you aren't on any anabolic steroids are you? I doesn't seem like something runners would take but just thought I would ask. We all know about 'roid rage, right?

Peace, turn it over to God. When you get impatient and try to grab it back from him, turn it over again. Sometimes I had to do it 30 or 40 times a day. It looked like a celestial ping-pong match. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MJ

Mey MarathonMan,

I assume that you are already in touch with a medical center that handles NF. Do you belong to one of the patient support groups? I know that belonging to a support group can be one of the most "normalizing" experiences one can find. I know, it worked for me. In fact, I was one of the first two founders of a national support group for Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS web site ), an intersex disorder. Yes, I have it and I felt alone and ashamed until I met others with the same condition. It is, in the old ugly terminology a hermaphrodite condition. Given that re-building a strong female indentity had been a challenge for me once I found out the truth of my condition at age 35 (my parents kept it secret), my husband's infidelity really struck at a very primal place in me and his having a child with another woman is what pushed me over the edge (temporarily). I wondered if he strayed for the purpose of having a child of his own. I wondered if I wasn't good enough for him, all the usual stuff.

Let me know if you follow the link to the support group, as I will remove it immediately afterward. The site contains much personal information about me and I don't want my MBer anonomity taken away.

Do you get the NF newsletter from the NNFF? There is a great article in the most recent newsletter about a marathoner who lost his hearing due to his NF. ( NF newsletter)

I would urge you to take advantage of the support groups for your medical condition. It is part of healing yourself and getting emotionally strong enough to be a full partner in a marriage. Early in our marriage I was way too needy and dependent. I worked hard in therapy, for a number of years, to overcome old issues. Now that my H is depressed for two years, I understand that being the support person for someone who is not standing on their own two feet is an exhausting thing to live with.

I know that parents who pass on a genetic disorder live with a lot of guilt. It has happened time and time again in my family with my medical condition and with, now, a new always fatal genetic condition having come to light in my sister's child. All of this is another reason to go to the support group. You will meet other parents in your situation. Knowing that most people with a serious genetic condition would not choose to never have been born, helps some people alleviate some of their guilt.

Put your trust in God that He has a plan for your daughter's life. Sometimes a birth defect can give us great gifts that we might not have otherwise come by--like compassion and mercy.

MJ

MARYJANES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Thanks for all the kind words of wisdom..all the arguing is doing me no good..and is just pushing her further away. have not met with doc..the ads seem to be working well and I am not as bad on the rolllercoaster as have been in the past.. Have to stop talking about OM... although she met with him this afternoon..who knows... what she is up to..( she told me this morning she was seeing him to discuss a few things)..If I just stop talking about her abd "T", maybe she may think what going on he isn't saying anything..and get to thinking! I received an email from a friend today and she told me " it's easier to catch flies with honey that with vinegar".. makes real sense.. almost what you are saying to me...
once again a few weeks ago you told me to shut up..and I let my emotions get the better of me...
Time also to start praying more than ever... stop telling her that I love her... she knows I do!! lets see what this evening brings..
Thanks again MJ... I really appreciate the help!

MARYJANES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Thanks for all the kind words of wisdom..all the arguing is doing me no good..and is just pushing her further away. have not met with doc..the ads seem to be working well and I am not as bad on the rolllercoaster as have been in the past.. Have to stop talking about OM... although she met with him this afternoon..who knows... what she is up to..( she told me this morning she was seeing him to discuss a few things)..If I just stop talking about her abd "T", maybe she may think what going on he isn't saying anything..and get to thinking! I received an email from a friend today and she told me " it's easier to catch flies with honey that with vinegar".. makes real sense.. almost what you are saying to me...
once again a few weeks ago you told me to shut up..and I let my emotions get the better of me...
Time also to start praying more than ever... stop telling her that I love her... she knows I do!! lets see what this evening brings..
Thanks again MJ... I really appreciate the help!

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
MORTARMAN/Q/KILY/MARYJANES and everyone else
Found out today.. while looking through her jacket that she has rented an apartment and will be pushing to take the gorls with her.. this is the Third bombshell.. first.. the "I dont love you".. second was RATMEAT... third...the apartment..she is doing all this stuff behind my back.. she is really going to screw up the girls by moving them out.. last night before I went to bed.. I told her that she could stay here... but she went out anyway.. borrowed I dont know how much fro her parents ( whom she says have no money)...great people hey!!! anything to help their Daughter break up a family.. no wonder her sister is also divorced...anyway.. looks like the beginning of the end for ole MM here... NO signs ogf reconciliation what so ever.. this is the end...thanks to everyone..who tried to help me..I am grateful for all your assistamce.. My friend mortarman.. good luck with your new life with your wife...all the best!!

marathonman:

Sorry, I've been distracted by my own silly behavior for the past few days. But:

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

Forget about whether you can see reconciliation on the horizon for now. You are judging everything you THINK your W is doing or saying right and left. Sure, what you've "discovered" and what she's doing may be "facts." But you're letting your perception of them dominate everything you say and do. She has to see that. Would you be attracted to her if the shoes were on the other feet? (assuming they even remotely fit, that is?). Of course not.

Having said all that, I will now come right out and say that even lofty ol' Qfwfq keeps screwing up at home. Read Mortarman's latest update. We all still do this. But KNOW THIS: You will lengthen her A (assuming she's in one right now) or even drive her to resume it or have another one (assuming she's telling the truth and she's not having an A right now), by continuing with this behavior of yours.

It's far from easy to stop the LBing. That's why this whole rebuilding thing is so darned difficult. But you have to do it, marathonman. You HAVE TO!

FOCUS,
-Qfwfq

Q
She took the day off from work since I tried to call her na dfound her at home.. I told her that it would be best if she stayed in the housena dthat I left...she says either way one of us is going to leave.. looks like i'm out of time?? if I did not LB anymore.. it s not going to make a difference..The A was a seperae issue..she is leaving me anyway.. how can I pput a stop to it and get time back on my side??

MM-

You CAN NOT go backwards...you can only start here and move forward. What's in motion will happen. In a way I think YOU need some time on your own to calm down and get yourself in a place where you are emotionally healthy...once that happens, you can focus more clearly on your plan-a.

Are you taking your meds?

KILY
Is it okay if I move out and let her have the house instead..I have a gut feeling that she is still involved with OM..she says she isn't but she still sees him every day and works with him.. how can it not be ovber??
If I move out.. the girls do not have to be moved around like sheep!
How can plan A work if we are not talking to each other?? I have not been taking the ads.. I have started training for a marathon and the running seems to be keeping me level.. no crying, no hard time sleeping.. just want to have this nightmare ovber with..
Kily If you can only see her eyes and the words.. how can I expect to see hope when the A was a seperate issue.. she said she was leaving me because of the way I treated her..was it a coincidence that the A started just after..was it a coincidence that OM was having trouble with his marriage at the same time??
This woman means business... If we are going to be literally seperated how can I ever hope for things to work themselves out??
sorry to ramble... but time is running out.. need input from the pros!!

MB VETS AND PROS!!!
My ww has rented an apartment.. she is saying that she is going to take the girls and move out next weekend...If I try to be the noble one and move out girls are going to think that I left them..should I go???or should I let her move out??
If I leave..what are the chances that reconciliation can occur.. she says that there is no future.. says that everything is over with RATMEAT..when is it time to call it quits and give up hoping that she will come back to me...
She is so set it her ways that she does not want me touching her in any way..
KILY!!
Is it wrong for me to disbelieve her when she says there is nothing going on with OM..is it classical behavior for her to tell me not totouch her since she is getting affection somewhere else..or is she telling the truth??
I dont want to leave and I dont want her to leave since that would mean that it is finally over and she will nmever be back in my arms..this woman has so much distain for me..
I am trying not to say much about RATMEAT..but just looking at her and knowing that she talks to him every day makes me want to beleive that she is still up to something or keeping the EA alive.
I just think that the reason she got the aprtment was so she could have a place to bring RATMEAT..
I know I am rambling...
I know that you said maybe time aprt is what is required... but that time apart will spell the end officially for Mr.and Mrs.MM... see I am the one that will be leaving... the chances of her calling me and asking me to come home and get back together will be slim.. AM i right in saying that???
Please please give me something to go on...

LET HER GO! Reality will show her soon enough that the world is NOT as she sees it. The OM, like most of his ilk, will not be too thrilled to carry on the burden of his lover's children. Even if he takes her in, the resentment he will feel will grow until one day he will have enough and kick her and your kids out. Your WW doesn't appreciate what she has with you because she beleives in the OM promises. Don't be surprised if she finds that what she wants is truly not what she expected.