Jen,

I'm gonna toss my thoughts around this post...take what you can or need...

I will tell you that your first conversation from him...was very informative...he gave you a a lot of insight into how he feeling...which is a very positive thing....

He also gave you lots of opportunities to define the boundaries you have chosen on a deeper level...

see if you can follow me on this...(with knowledge i could be waaay off... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but here's my take on things...and things you may want to think about telling him...

You guys are still stuck in the same cycle of blame and defense...and not an attack..it is the most common mistake..all people in relationships make...it's the easiest and known path...even when we know it serves no good..it's still the easiest...

Know that in feeling like you need to defend or define yourself...that you (like all of us) can miss opportunities to HEAR what the other is saying...

He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

this paragraph is full of information about how he is feeling....you need to take it slow...validate you "hear" him...but also take these type of things deeper....

give positive feedback for calling you..with limits that he is civil..but don't tell him only call me when you are civil...tell him that you really want to be able to have meaningful conversations with him..and want him to call you...
You don't have to challenge and verbalize your limits...set them and act on them IF the need arises...

Ask him why he would feel inferior to call you...share your feelings of inferiority with him...don't power struggle these issues...(not saying you are) but don't lose opportunities to process what he and you are TRYING to say to eachother....

Tell him that it is not true that you have any power over anyone but yourself...and that the last thing you want in a relationship is power...

"If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt.,

those hang a little on the LB side...sort of a veiled challenge..that can make him feel defensive...just be careful how you ask him things...

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today.

You say no I don't...and it sounds like a really awful day..and i am sorry that you had to do that...it must hurt a lot...

He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice.

did you ask him what his advice is?

and then the MB voice of reason that tells me to keep him guessing, make him come to me, not to go spend the night there, not to pursue him, etc.

I hope you find the MB voice telling you dig and work deeper than what he has been offering..but also you have to be open to the times like last night...where you two could have had some truly meaningful dialogue...

.that you have learned that all of this external patterns of avoidance and blame...solve nothing and waste everyones time....and that what you want is deeper than "keeping him guessing"...

perhaps you should read your first post again..look at what you wrote he told you...reflect on some of the things he said...and see if you can't help him with some of those things....that he may have reached out to you...but the only of knowing is to see if he is willing to really look at those thoughts and feelings...

ARK

Know that in feeling like you need to defend or define yourself...that you (like all of us) can miss opportunities to HEAR what the other is saying...

I typed all that he said, because I thought that some of it was progress, him opening up to me, and maybe for once telling me how he feels.

I tried to validate him, and tell him things like, "I see," and "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way."

give positive feedback for calling you.. That's quite challenging to do.

tell him that you really want to be able to have meaningful conversations with him..and want him to call you... Believe me, I've told him I really do want to keep on talking and open up to each other. Funny thing is, I absolutely dread answering the phone when he calls. I don't want to talk to him. It's rarely something that results in anything positive.

You don't have to challenge and verbalize your limits...set them and act on them IF the need arises...

That's what I guess I sort of had planned to do. But I don't have the nerve to clearly state my limits and stick to them, or so it seems from last nights events.

Ask him why he would feel inferior to call you...share your feelings of inferiority with him... I know honesty is good, but I thought weakness was unattractive and might push him away, so I wasn't about to tell him that I feel inferior to him. Actually, I don't feel inferior to him! I feel like I'm stuck being at his beck and call, but I certainly don't feel inferior. I'm doing more work here. I'm treating the people around me well. He's keeping his head in the sand, treating the people around him (me at least, and my SIL for one other) poorly.

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today. You say no I don't...and it sounds like a really awful day..and i am sorry that you had to do that...it must hurt a lot... Funny, I pretty much said those things. I said, "No I don't, tell me how it went." Then when he did I said,"Oh that must have been hard, I'm so sorry to hear you had to do that."

did you ask him what his advice is? Yes yes indeed, I have asked him this a couple of times. He says his advice is to be nice to him. To come over whenever he gets up the nerve to invite me over.

So Ark^^, you seem to think it's still okay, in fact perhaps a good idea to keep the lines of communication open with him. Have I misunderstood you? You are going out on a limb on the other side of the MB tree so to speak.

Jen

You guys are still stuck in the same cycle of blame and defense...and not an attack..it is the most common mistake..all people in relationships make...it's the easiest and known path...even when we know it serves no good..it's still the easiest...

So how do I get out of that cycle? Even if I change my behaviour, he's so good at being in that cycle, he can drag me back in (like last night). I guess the bigger question is how do WE get out of that cycle? (He WON'T go for MC.)

Jen, again

Jen,
In the posts I have seen of yours, I respectfully disagree with Ark. Let's make sure that all sides are clear. Is he still talking to the woman friends that you disapprove of, still doing whatever with them, still drinking too much and having strange women? Has he committed to stop doing this completely? When he tells you how he feels, it sounds like guilt trips and pity parties instead of truly expressing his feelings. He sounds like he still wants you to have to pay for all of his suffering- not only what you did with his BF which you have tried to repent and change from, but it also sounds like it is your fault that his dad died and that he is having to go through it and that you should feel privileged that he wants to have sex with you but have no conversation whatsoever, that might help to work on the marriage. He sounds like he wants to continue drinking, partying and using you. Maybe I am out of line, but that is what it sounds like to me. In my opinion, you can't keep groveling with this man who makes you feel like dirt. If my WH wanted to recover, then yes, I would probably go through a period of mourning and sadness and expressing how much he hurt me, but I hope to goodness that after all that has happened, that I wouldn't live day after day browbeating him and making him feel like no good and like he should lay down and do whatever I say. I think you will continue to be your H's whipping board until you put a stop to it. You don't have to be ugly or controlling or mean about it, just take care of yourself.

I believe ( sorry if I misread) that Ark was saying if you are going to answer the phone, do as much good as you can while you are there. She is not browbeating you, she is coaching. You know, "since you are on the phone, this is how you can do better while there."

I agree that he gave you much good informatition.

Jen, Keep in mind that there is no such think as the "perfect" plan. Those who counsel with the Harleys say the plan changes sometimes based on what happens.

You sometimes feel that if you do or say just the right thing he will change. I believe the formula is in HNHN. Time together and meet needs. I don't believe you have been able to do either one as you have liked.

You are also dealing with verbal and emotional abuse. I don't know how to tell you to deal with that, but I bet Steve or Jenifer could.

I believe Ark's suggestions were good. If you are going to accept calls, do as much with them as you possibly can.

I don't think you are stupid either, I think you are a normal human being. All of us can learn, and improve. All of us make mistakes. Remember that we here are not professional counselors, we are a support group, and there is a difference.

Overall, I would have to say I admire your effort to fix things. I think if you really want to give it your best effort, call Steve and see what he has to say.

SS

Thanks still seeking..that is exactly what I am saying...

I also believe that no one can control us, abuse us, manipulate us without our consent...and that is exactly what boundaries are for...

And I am certainly not browbeating you or telling you take 'abuse" or anything

So Ark^^, you seem to think it's still okay, in fact perhaps a good idea to keep the lines of communication open with him. Have I misunderstood you? You are going out on a limb on the other side of the MB tree so to speak. like that...

I am on the limb I guess jen...I have read a lot of your posts that really focused on him...and his behaviours and some where you went searching others to validate your impressions of him...and each time I have advocated to let that go...and bring the focus back to you...

I will always advocate keeping the lines of communication open...and each time you communicate with him...and he crosses a boundary you remove yourself from the conversation....
each and every time...
The more you change jen and grow...the more the outcome will be...that he will
1. give up...decide that you are all these horrible things in the name of justifying his own bad behaviour and choices...but you will know the truth...that he chose to cling to the known bad behaviors
2. Realize that he has to change himself...cause the old way doesn't work with you anymore...

If he chooses 1...then you know you have done what you could...that you have grown in leaps and bounds REGARDLESS of your past actions and leave him in the dust...Remember YOU are becoming a person so far distanced from the person you were that had an affair..that you will come out stronger and with a great foundation of what really makes a relationship between two people work...
I pray he comes a long the ride with you...
lots of change
lots of growth...
but people do it all the time...

If he chooses to it will come with lots of growing pains...lots of slipping back and forth...the goal is not him...the goal is YOU no longer accepting a shadow of true intimate relationship with him or anyone else...

But you two lived a long time...with accepting things that don't make a good foundation...
his friends have been in the picture a long time...and your digression...

so as much as you rally now against it...as you should and must...know that you "allowed" it for a long time as well...and this takes time...

people don't like change....scarey scarey stuff.

Jen it's done when you say it's done....not me or anyone else...and having contact does not mean subjecting yourself to LB pain...but it can mean emotional pain of working through the issues...these things get blurred...and the 'real thoughts and feelings and hurt" also gets jammed in with the disrepect and blame game....

focus on the real stuff...don't believe, buy into the old meany stuff...
that's your boundary....all about you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with calling Steve...

ARK

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts. I don't know where to start in responding to them though.

I just don't know what to say or do at the moment. I am tired (I didn't sleep that well there last night, and I'm sick with a bad cold). My head is swimming. I don't know what to do next.

I don't think plan B is in me. But I want to be treated better. Sigh. Big SIGH.

A very selfish part of me said to me today, "Self, do you really want to be with a man who appears about to go through years of depression over his dad's death, and what you've done to him? Do you want to be with a man who's whole family will be in that same depression for years to come?"

I am still stressing about whether or not to go skiing with my girl friend this weekend, or stick around just in case my H tries to contact me b/c it's his birthday, etc. She's calling me later tonight to see what I've decided. I know I shouldn't focus on him, and just do what makes me happy, but I am completely torn. Go, try to have fun, avoid him. Or stay, still keep busy and don't sit around waiting for him, but I'm close enough to home I could see him if he invited me.

My mind's too muddled right now. I'm going to rest for a while. I'll check back in later.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hey Jen,

I think you did just fine!!!!! It is OK to love this man... You do not have to feel guilty about who you love, just like I don't or anybody else.....

Just a couple of things to fine tune and you will start to see MORE progress... You are making progress, but you keep slowing it down because of a couple of things you do.(which can be corrected if you apply them)

He called me last night after midnight. I didn't answer. He called tonight, early evening, I was out. He called again a bit later, we just talked.

This is all good so far.... He called YOU.. YOU just talked... What is bad about that? NOTHING.
(remember to be happy just the way things are)

I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that&#8217;s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call.

He apologized for calling and politely ended the call? What is wrong with that? NOTHING... this is good also.....(remember to look at the good in all of your situations)

Then he called back a couple minutes later. He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

Now, THIS is where you could have applied the AGREE with him principle. He opened himself up at first, but then decided to blame you part way through his confession of how hard it was...

This is ok too... He is allowed to have feelings isn't he? right or wrong, they are his feelings......

Now, when he called you callous, and when he said you did not know how to love him.... THIS is the exact moment to agree..... Here is what I would have said.........

"Yes, you are right, I guess that I can come across as callous sometimes. And yes, I also agree with you that I don't think I do know how to love you."

THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO!!!!! Just agree with his statements....

Now, this next exchange is where you got more off track....

I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights,

You are not accepting things "just as they are"
Everytime you go in that direction and try to PRESSURE him to give more than you are getting, this is where it goes back to the same ole, same ole for both of you......

He asked me why it disgusts me that he finds me sexually attractive. I told him that wasn't the case, that I just want more than that. He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.

He is right.. Why don't you agree with him when he says you should be happy to know that he finds you so attractive? If you would have agreed instead of saying you want more, then this could have and would have taken a different direction.....

Now, as for going over to be with him...
If you want to go see him, then GO... If you do not then tell him nicely that you will not tonight...

Then if you do go see him...Just ENJOY the time with him... don't ask for more or talk about the future in any way... just enjoy your time with the man you say you love...You are applying your own guilt. (If you decide to go, tell MR. GUILT that you are not going to listen to that little voice he always gives you)

That is it... It is that easy..... You have not consistently tried being happy just the way the relationship is , and you have not learned how powerful it is to agree with HIS view of things...

It is not validating to a person when you say to them, "I am sorry you feel that way"... People take that as meaning that they are WRONG and you disagree... The best way to validate is to completely agree with their view and then be silent.....

Please fine tune your skills... He is contacting you and wanting to see you... Relax and enjoy...
If you do not want to talk to him when he calls, just do not answer the phone until you feel confident....

Jen, your H has known that his birthday is coming up for YEARS now. And if he hasn't thought to invite you out to do anything yet for this year, then don't count on him doing so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Go and have fun with your gal pals!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you're really having doubts, then be the better person and ask HIM out for his birthday. Choose his favourite restaurant, and make it a real date. If he turns you down, or hums and haws over it, take back the offer for now, and ask if he may consider a raincheck for another time. Then go and have fun!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm truly sorry that he's still in his pity party over the passing of his father. But you know you can't MAKE him go out and have fun with you, it's up to him. If he chooses to not go, then it's his choice.

The hard reality is, death happens. But life goes on. It's a tough lesson to learn for some, but imperitive. You can't get over the grief until you go through it first. Your H is at a standstill. There's not much more you can do to help him aside from inviting him to attend outings with you every now and then.

And just because he's chosen to stop living, sure as he!! doesn't mean that you have to do the same. (of course, if he were committed to recovery, then staying with him and POJAing would be imperitive).

Sleep well tonight Jen... and don't forget to turn off the ringers on your phones!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

Okay I don't completely agree with what most are saying about your husband's motives.

Is he manipulating you? YES!

Is he controlling you? NO! In fact I am not so sure he is in control of himself.

Let me explain.

IF he truly still loves you BUT he just can't forgive you then he is torn between two sets of powerful emotions....the ones wanting this all to go away and for things to be right and the ones that hate and loath you for what you did.

Now Jen I am not saying he is right simply trying to put forth another possibility.

Despite how badly I want things to work out between my wife and me I find myself from time to time feeling like what happened is totally unacceptable and I cannot forgive much less forget. In those moments I want to PUNISH in every way possible shy of physically striking her. When I feel that way initially I can't control the rage that comes out....slowly I get my grip back but not after some very hateful venting.

So my question is this....was your husband a relatively nice guy before all of this happened?

I mean did he respect or was he controlling and manipulative well before the you know what hit the fan?

Many a BS will destroy any chance of reconcilation without even realizing it until its too late.

As long as you run back to him he can inflict mental pain on you......and does so because he has suffered the same pain because of your actions. Two wrongs won't make you two right...but if he indeed is torn then he is no more rational as a betrayed spouse in a fog than the wayward spouse was when they were in their fog.

Just want to point out that he may not be manipulating you solely for physical pleasure but to dump pain back on you that he feels he has a right to because of your actions. He is of course wrong and childish in his actions if that is what he is doing.....but emotional state a betrayed spouse feels after discovery is probably as powerful as the fog waywards spouses feel when in an affair.

oh mercy. Jen, I know your head has to be spinning with all these answers, but I have to say that ark's second message I agreed a lot with. You have got to get the focus back on YOU!! Change for YOU!!! Love YOU!!! Know that YOU are changing and being a better woman!!
I am not sure I ever agree with the concept that Keepmvn4wrd is talking about. While I don't think I need to yell, scream and angrily disagree with my WH, I sure don't think I need to smile and agree with everything either. How crazy that would drive me...and him too I think. Because he knows it isn't real. He knows it is put on. I can't agree with someone just to make them happy. Now, as far as not getting in an argument and saying "yeh, maybe I do come across like that to you" or "I can see your point" - well maybe. You are validating him and saying that his feelings matter to you and that he has a right to them. But to go so far as to AGREE - I think that is just babble and dangerous- it isn't honest and if you are like me, it will make you madder later because it will eat you up inside.
As far as his bday, I think Topie had it right on the money. He knows when his birthday is every year and can invite you to do something. Please don't sit at home waiting for him- go have fun and relax with your friend, or ask him yourself if he wants to do something- if you really want to. I personally don't think you want to from what I read of your thoughts, but I could be wrong. I think you are wanting to out of guilt and not true desire. Please tell me if I am correct or not...I want to understand where you are coming from.
Stunned dad said: "but emotional state a betrayed spouse feels after discovery is probably as powerful as the fog waywards spouses feel when in an affair." This is true to a point- however, as a BS I feel like my head has been screwed on right most of the time. And while I am hurt and confused, I am not out there. I have my senses about me. Yes, I blowup and say crazy things and possibly do crazy things given a chance, but there comes a time to grow up and face the music and start to heal- it has been almost a year since this- and normally I would think it is just a trigger time and he is having it rough- but has he gotten ANY better in the past year? Or worse? I am asking because I really don't know- I just started posting in March. But think about it- you seem to have the idea that this depression thickness is going to last for years. And I hope you don't want to be in a "prison of the past" as my pastor talked of at church tonight.....

Jen,
my email address is tn_titans@Juno.com- I would like to send you a CD in the mail of this pastor's topic tonight- I think it could help you. He is a very cool pastor who has seen lots and lots of LIFE happenings....He started a church for people who didn't want to go to church- real hope for real people in the real world.

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Adgirl48,

I agree,it probably would make you crazy to agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But it WORKS!!!! Obviously you have not tried it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen,

hey there. I came on over from the divorced board. You know, coming here is kinda like giving up cigarettes. You tell everyone on the planet you are giving up cigarettes, and the second you light up, there is a whole crowd of people looking at you like "I thought you didn't smoke anymore" then you wish you didn't tell everyone you were gonna quit in the first place. Ok, I'm rambling now, but the moral of the story is that sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference.

I do have to say this though...after just reading three posts my thought was, this is really messed up. Right around the time of my divorce, my ex said he was starting to feel guilty about things, and I said "Is that so horrible to bear?" as if, I was the only one who had ever done anything to feel guilty about. BULLSH*T!!

I don't think that anything someone gets out of you because of guilt is valid or is anything to be proud of. It's like getting sex from a drunk person, or even worse, one that is passed out. The fact that your ex would be more attracted to you when you feel like cr*p about yourself is pathological.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>Jen,

hey there. I came on over from the divorced board. You know, coming here is kinda like giving up cigarettes. You tell everyone on the planet you are giving up cigarettes, and the second you light up, there is a whole crowd of people looking at you like "I thought you didn't smoke anymore" then you wish you didn't tell everyone you were gonna quit in the first place. Ok, I'm rambling now, but the moral of the story is that sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference.

I don't think that anything someone gets out of you because of guilt is valid or is anything to be proud of. It's like getting sex from a drunk person, or even worse, one that is passed out. The fact that your ex would be more attracted to you when you feel like cr*p about yourself is pathological.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't believe I am saying this, because I think I have disagreed with her a lot, but I agree with the Student!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Keepmvn4wrd:
<strong>Adgirl48,

I agree,it probably would make you crazy to agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But it WORKS!!!! Obviously you have not tried it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok I admit that first part was funny. As for the second part....you judge too quickly. I have tried it, and I don't think it works in every case and that it is ludicrous to think that it would. You can only agree with "fog talk" and crazy thinking and things that go against your very beliefs for so long, before you are more messed up yourself, because you haven't been true to yourself, which is the whole point of most of the troubles, is that if people took care of themselves (in a boundary setting, not selfish way) and stopped trying to "fix and enable others" (as I have been known to do- I am hitting myself with that 2x4) then a lot of us wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. But hey, JMHO.

So many perspectives! Thanks, but I don't know how to respond really.

I found one question I'd like to answer though: So my question is this....was your husband a relatively nice guy before all of this happened?

Yes he was a relatively nice guy, in fact generally quite a loving husband. I was happy in my marriage. I used to thank God every night before bed for giving me such a wonderful husband, and for giving us both good health, and a good life together.

Here's what I was somewhat dissatisfied with prior to my affair (what I think I was aware of back then):
1) I could've done without my H having female colleagues for close friends too, but my solution to this was to just about always be around if he spent time with them.
2) He has always been somewhat controlling or emotionally manipulative though, but not all of the time. I do know that I found myself feeling like I was always the one at fault, and I was always the one apologizing, etc.
3) His family always came ahead of my family.
4) He also off and on would get really mad at me for not being as "domestic" as he'd like me to be. I'm just not as tidy a person as he is. I could live with dishes in the sink for a few hours, I could live with a full hamper of laundry for a few days, I could live with a pile of newspapers laying around for a while, etc. He couldn't.
5) We were spending more and more time out drinking with our friends (a group that included his 2 female buddies and OM) and less and less time alone together. (Although, to be fair, this followed the great stress of his mom going through breast cancer surgery.)
6) Sometimes I felt like me talking to my H was becoming more of an irritation than something he welcomed. He made jokes about me being more beautiful when I was quiet.

So that's all that I thought was kind of amiss with my M prior to the A. All things I thought weren't that big of a deal, and that would resolve themselves eventually. Hmmm....

I can't focus on all of your thoughts and suggestions tonight. I'm still debating whether to go away or not this weekend. I'm still really worried that somehow my H will reach out to me this weekend, and I won't be here, and he'll never let me live it down. My friend is very kind and said I could let her know tomorrow, then she'll make the reservations.

I'm giving up and going to bed for now.

Jen

PS: I think the point that has really hit home so far was the remark TheStudent made, that "sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference."

Hi Jen,
I still keep checking back in on your posts, following your story. No need for me to respond really with all the great advice you've been getting.
This latest thread has disturbed me somewhat though, because you have just started the cycle all over again.
You know what changes you have to make to feel better and for a while you were doing that.
But you just took a glance down that road, instead opting for the more familar route.
Now your in a state of confusion, by choice. Asking for and getting the same advice you've already gotten. Hoping maybe that there is some easier way to find some peace.
It's going to be hard that's for sure. But remember, you aren't doing you or your H any favors by continuing this cycle.
I realize that it is very easy for me to say this looking in from the outside. But to me you are like an alcohlic. You are going to keep going back for more, trying to find comfort in the bottle (H). Eventually you will hit rock bottom where you dispise your H or yourself, likely both.

The only advice I have for you is work hard at coming to terms with all the guilt you have. It's dragging you down. Maybe you feel like you haven't been punished enough yet.
How much punishment is enough before you can start to feel better?

Wishing you the best,
Brad

Thanks for dropping by to give me your thoughts How? I appreciate it. I don't know what to do about this guilt dragging me down. I don't think it's because I don't feel like I've been punished enough yet. I think it's because my marriage is still unresolved. If he would decide he's leaving me, I could suck it up, put the guilt aside and move on. If he would decide he wants to be with me, I could put the guilt aside and focus on the marriage. It's the undecided limbo that keeps my guilt alive, and keeps me as his pawn.

So I've been debating about what to do with my weekend and whether to go away or not. I can't get past this to the bigger picture of the endless cycle I've gotten back into. Heck, me stressing over this is Jen all wrapped up in my H's controlling nature as it is. I wouldn't stress about it if I wasn't worried about what he thought.

Here's something that helped me decide that I SHOULD go: As far as his bday, I think Topie had it right on the money. He knows when his birthday is every year and can invite you to do something. Please don't sit at home waiting for him- go have fun and relax with your friend, or ask him yourself if he wants to do something- if you really want to. I personally don't think you want to from what I read of your thoughts, but I could be wrong. I think you are wanting to out of guilt and not true desire. Please tell me if I am correct or not...I want to understand where you are coming from.

You're right Topie and Adgirl, he's known his birthday is coming for a while now. If he wanted to make plans with me, he's had ample time. I KNOW, without a doubt, that he would have ZERO interest in doing something "nice" for his b-day with me, like going out for dinner, or going out anywhere with me for that matter. The only thing I'd expect him to want this weekend is for me to make another overnight visit. I could also imagine him showing up here dreadfully late at night. Or even calling me in the middle of the night, drunk and depressed.

I don't want to invite him to do something, because I will be ignored or rejected. The big reason why I would stay here this weekend would be out of fear, not guilt really, but fear. Fear of him trying to get in contact with me, and me not being around, and him finding out I left town, and then him using the fact that I left town as one more thing against me on a list of things I've done wrong.

What is that tag line someone has, you cannot be in love with someone whom you fear?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Okay Jen the 64,000 question.....did the affair bring out the real him when it comes to controlling and manipulating?

I think it did. He had the excuse to unleash his inner demons on you.

Why do I say that?

Simple during my recovery/discovery I became a very angry raging person. My nature is very laid back easy going. As some of my old girl----space--friends as opposed to girlfriends--described me as the nicest guy they ever met (kiss of death in romance sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) and my friends and golfing buddies described as the type that would give you the shirt off his back.

But here I was out of control with rage. I own a liquor store but often joked I would starve if I had to live off what I drank. But I found myself drinking regularly and sometimes excessively.

I love my children and love interacting with them. But suddenly I had no patience for them and didn't want to play with them.

So for me the discovery of the affair turned me into something/somebody I was not.

Gradually I am returning to my old self. I have more patience and play time for the kids. I am golfing again with friends after a 5 month absence.

Quit drinking to get drunk. Almost back to drinking on special occassions only but still every now and then one to soothe the nerves.

Most important of all ....I have cut down both the number and intensity of times I rage against my wife.

Why?

Well foremost I truly love her.
Secondly I am not that person the affair turned me into.
Thirdly thanks to reading your posts Jen I have come to recognize the pain my actions cause the one I love.

In contrast it seems to me your husband is becoming more of the person he really is. He has gone from somewhat controlling/manipulative to outright controlling and manipulative.

Some of this no doubt is a result of the anger side of your affair. Some even as payback for the pain you caused him. But based on what you have posted over the last several weeks it looks like he is really showing his inner self.