HELP! If I did the "right" thing, why does it feel so bad?

Sometimes I think I've invented a fictitious set of personality traits for my H to make myself feel better about having cheated on him, and the fact that here I am, living by myself, and on the verge of divorce. It makes me feel better to focus on all the negative aspects of him.

I feel like I did the last time I gave up on my boundaries and went running into my H's arms and bed. I feel desperate to show him that I love him, and that I'm willing to meet his needs, and do what he is comfortable with for now.

He called me last night after midnight. I didn't answer. He called tonight, early evening, I was out. He called again a bit later, we just talked.

Grand surprise, he invited me over for the night. He did invite me in a kind and nice tone, none of that old "wanna f*&%" stuff from months ago.

I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call.

Then he called back a couple minutes later. He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today. He said someday your dad will die, likely before your mom and then maybe you'll understand.

I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights, he said he doesn't like to go out at all anymore, except maybe with his brothers now and again. He said he's like my mom but 10 times worse now. (She never goes out or does anything with anyone but my dad, for the most part.)

He asked me why it disgusts me that he finds me sexually attractive. I told him that wasn't the case, that I just want more than that. He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.

If setting and maintaining my boundaries is supposed to make me feel better, why am I crying right now?

He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice.

He was so honest and sincere on the phone. I am so tempted to go over there right now.

He also said howcome I make him feel like the bad guy all the time?

Am I some sort of power-trip b@$%# actually? Have I been twisting things around in my posts here to get sympathy and to make myself feel justified?

I just put myself back into the grovelling position somehow. Or did he put me there? I feel like I really am a selfish, callous person, expecting him to do what I want, when he's going through so much. You should have heard the pain and frustration in his voice.

I have this impending feeling that I really messed up my chances tonight. He approached me in a kind and sincere manner, and I threw up my boundaries,, and pushed him away, and made him think I don't know how to love him.

The worst thing right now is that I feel like begging him to let me stay the night now. I don't want to be seen as callous, cold and unloving. I guess maybe he's really good at manipulating me?

I don't know what to do. My heart says go to him. My psychobabble mental dialogue says maintain your boundaries Jen, he'll come to you eventually.

I don't want to end up divorced. I don't want him to feel unloved by me. The thing he said tonight that hurt the most was that he couldn't believe that after being with him for 12 years I still didn't know how to love him.

Help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What do I do?

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

[ April 29, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]

I'm so useless. I'm a pawn. I called him back and told him I hated to hear him so upset, to hear him hurting so much. Then I asked if I could still come over for the night. Then he said this is what you're doing, you're going to wear --- (a favorite item of his) and come over now. He sounded all commanding and controlling. A definite turn-off.

I HATE MY LIFE. I feel so darn trapped. Now I have to go b/c I said I would, but after that tone of voice he used.....

Or am I useless if I try to cater to my hurting H?

So many times, I have two or three voices in my head. My voice (the Jen that loves him more than anything, and wants her life back), my other voice (the strong, boundary setting Jen, who thinks she can be happy alone), and then the MB voice of reason that tells me to keep him guessing, make him come to me, not to go spend the night there, not to pursue him, etc.

Sometimes I wonder if I'd have better instincts if I'd never gotten advice from anyone, counsellor, friends or MB people. But how can that be?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Was he just nice to me to get what he wants?

You know why I have to go? I have to go just in case this makes the difference, in case this is a step towards getting him to recommit to our marriage. Otherwise I'd forever worry if this one night would've made the difference.

Say a prayer for me that things go well.

Jen, the desperate fool (just thought I'd identify which voice is strongest tonight)

Jen,
IF YOU HAVEN'T GONE, PLEASE DON'T GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am worried about you- he does NOT sound like he has been nice at all in this post. I don't know where you see him being nice, I think it is because you love him so you don't see clearly, and i know I am the same in my situation sometimes. But all he has done is control you- by saying, this is what you are going to do- made you feel bad about your boundaries because you want a relationship/friendship/conversation/AND sexual partner, not just the latter.... He sounds like he is just making you feel like you should be happy that he finds you so attractive. Well, I think there are other men who would respect you AND find you attractive- I don't see any respect to you from him. And if tonight is a make or break deal on your divorce- then you are walking a very thin line, and you are never going to win like that.......Be strong- LOVE yourself- give yourself more credit and worth. I am going to say a prayer for you, I hope you haven't gone, and if you have, I am going to pray for the Lord to protect you.

And Jen,
he sounds like he is making you feel guilty- like you have all the power, like you should feel guilty for his dad dying- yes, his dad dying was terrible, but you can't bring him back and you can't keep making it up to him that he is gone. I know that it isn't the same thing, but my WH cheated on me right when I was taking care of my grandmother dying of cancer. I know now, after time, that he was so in his fog that he didn't realize what he was doing and that she was really going to die then...My wh is gone but even if he wasn't, I can't make him feel guilty for the rest of his life about not being there when she died. Restoring marriages is about dealing with the hurt pain and anger, and moving past it- not threatening, demeaning, and condescending your mate....and I have said this many many times, you cheated on him with his BF and that stinks really bad and I think it would be hard for me to get past that- however, he is having drinks with strange women at all hours of the night and treating you like crap......it sounds like you are the Former REMORSEFUL WS and he is the "Using his wife to make her feel guilty while he cheats" spouse......it is getting a little crazy and I am afraid you are letting him take away your self-respect and you can't let him!!!!!! Please write me as soon as possible...let me know you are ok.

Jen

Adgirl said it really well. I hope you didn't go. He has manipulated you, and as soon as you collapse and give in, he becomes controlling "Wear that, and get yourself over here quick, because I want you now"

I'm sorry, irrespective of him having a hard day (I'm really sorry for the loss of his father, but how long will he be able to use this for) he has no right to use you in this fashion. Why does he not call you when he's had a good day?

I hope you didn't go Jen, I'm not sure about the 1 month thing - has he actually filed for DV then? I don't remember seeing that.

Take care Jen
Lisa

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
Was he just nice to me to get what he wants?

<hr /></blockquote>Jen,
short answer, yes. Your H definately knows which buttons to push to make you feel the way he wants you to feel. It's manipulation, plain and simple. Be strong. Don't fall for it. When he is ready for real recovery, he won't be calling you at midnight, then telling you what to wear.
Michael

Yeah I went. I don't feel as rotten about it now as I did last night. I swear I wish I just hadn't answered the phone, but I can't avoid this forever.
I don't have the nerve to tell him my boundaries, he's a pro at reviving my guilt. He literally makes me feel selfish for setting boundaries.

He knows me well enough to know I'd never be able to set boundaries without getting advice from somewhere. That's why he keeps asking who's giving me advice. I never actually answer that one really.

I just recalled, he mocked me again last night (on the phone) for sending him an email with my thoughts in it. He implied that I shouldn't expect him to send me a reply b/c his life is too difficult right now as it is and he can't handle that too. This came to mind b/c I was thinking I should write him a letter telling him to choose: a) work on this marriage wholeheartedly (including getting together regularly, for dates, not just sleepovers); or b) choose to not see me, and as a result, I guess that's choosing divorce.

But he makes me feel like it's wrong for me to "have all the power" and "call all the shots".

About the 1 month thing, he hasn't filed for Dv, however either one of us actually can file after May 31st, that's the date that we separated last year.

Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?
I suppose it's because I feel sorry for him?
Or is it because I love him?

Jen

[ April 30, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]

Jen ~

My answer is that you are dealing with an alcoholic, among other things. What happened last night was that your husband realized that what he was doing wasn't working (ie he wasn't succeeding in manipulating) so he switched tactics in a really ugly way. He knows your buttons and he used them.

The short answer here is that Jen, last night you went right back to the comfortable dance of a puppet on a string. The difference between you and a puppet is that YOU do have a choice. He can't MAKE you do anything without your own decision to allow it.

You need more help than just here...you need Al-Anon in a bad way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

((hugs))

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel desperate to show him that I love him, and that I'm willing to meet his needs, and do what he is comfortable with for now.
<hr /></blockquote>Jen,
In the big scheme of things, this is exactly what you would need to do since you are the WS. However, the needs that he has and the things that he expects from you are degrading and unacceptable. He wants to be free to verbally degrade you, emotionally taunt you, and keep you as some dirty little sex secret. Those requests can only come from a sick and cruel individual.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.
<hr /></blockquote>This man ain't no fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> He knew exactly what to say to jerk that emotional chain.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights, he said he doesn't like to go out at all anymore, except maybe with his brothers now and again <hr /></blockquote>This is just an excuse. Don't buy into it. He wants to keep you as his little sexual secret and that should be intolerable.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.
<hr /></blockquote>Blah..Blah...Blah....babble...babble...babble. Equates with...yes, I will respect you in the morning...No, I won't *&^% in your mouth...and the check is in the mail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Empty words meant to flatter or appease are all they are.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice. <hr /></blockquote>Hmmm...could the advice be wrong because it prevents him from being able to use and abuse you?? Of course he is going to consider anything wrong that does not let him get his way and to be in total control of everything. He is behaving childishly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have this impending feeling that I really messed up my chances tonight <hr /></blockquote>Messed up your chances at repairing a marriage? Was that even mentioned at all? Was a committed relationship mentioned? I think the only thing that you "messed up" was his plans for a little secret sexual tryst.

If you want to be his dirty little secret then go over there. If you want to be the woman that for some reason he is ashamed to be seen with, go on over there. If you do not want to save and repair the "marriage" go on over there.

Just realize that you will never have anything more with him. He has outlined what he wants from you and if you comply then you are doomed.

JMHO
committed

Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?

Because you choose to be. You seem to have this pretty well figured out, your H manipulates you cause he can, cause it gets what he wants, control over you. The question is what value can you see in a man who uses people this way. It is who he is, making excuses for him is just plain dumb.

btw, I don't think you are a true ws, I think your H is the wandering spouse by proxy, he manipulated you into that circumstance so as to have more power over you...maybe not a deliberate plan (though I wouldn't put it past him), but certainly using the marital breakdown he created to his advantage.

[ April 30, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

I know I know I know. I got manipulated and let myself down. I ignored the warning bells in my head.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call....Then he called back a couple minutes later. <hr /></blockquote>I shouldn't have answered the second call, or subsequent calls. Stupid Jen, stupid Jen, stupid Jen.

Jen

Jen,

I see that you were posting as I was posting to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I swear I wish I just hadn't answered the phone, but I can't avoid this forever.
<hr /></blockquote>Sure you can. It's called PlanB. You made a decision to answer his call last night. PlanB would hold you to NOT answering it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But he makes me feel like it's wrong for me to "have all the power" and "call all the shots". <hr /></blockquote>Never feel wrong for setting your own personal boundaries. You are responsible for yourself...to take care of yourself..and protect yourself. It is NOT wrong. Maybe you have never done it before. It is not too late to start it. It is disturbing to him because he no longer has you as his own personal whipping boy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?
<hr /></blockquote>This is something that you have to work on free and independent of him. It might be best for you to seek IC. You might find yourself doing the same dance again one day, it might just be a different partner.

Work on yourself. Seek help whereever that is and with whomever. You need it now and you most assuredly will need it later in other relationships.

committed

Jen

BR & Committed have given you some fantastic advice. In fact, every time I read your thread, loads of people give you fantastic advice. But that's all it is really, you have to either want to do something with that or not. At the moment, you seem to choose not to, and now you are down on yourself again because of last night.

Jen, after I started Plan B, a week later my H told me that he was sorry if he upset me but he was going to contact a Solicitor (that was mid-Jan). He used that as an excuse to get in touch with me and clearly put some pressure on me. To this day, some 3.5 months later, he still hasn't contacted a Solicitor, and I have had to make the DV decision. I think it is highly unlikely your H will start DV proceedings - let's face it, at the minute he's having too much fun with you - he can use you and abuse you as he pleases. Someone to hurl abuse at in the middle of the night when he's Mr Angry and everything in the world that is wrong is your fault, someone he can just phone up and demand sex from and she turns up wearing what he likes, someone to be his battering ram, someone how accepts the fact that he has other women friendships which are inappropriate, someone at the end of the day he can bully.

Jen, I'm not normally so hard, you know I'm not, but if you don't change this situation, he certainly won't, and it upsets me to see you being used in this way in the name of.... what, love? This isn't love to me, how can it be to you?

Take care of yourself Jen, I really do worry about you and forgive me for being hard, it's probably the last thing you need today.

Chin up

Lisa

The dance will never change until you find the courage to change it. I don't believe anyone said it would be easy or feel good. As I recall, and being a person who LOATHES and AVOIDS change at all costs if possible, the changes H and I made over the course of our situation were the most painful things we've ever faced. The point of having a plan is to keep you focused on why it is that you are staying a course, NO MATTER HOW IT FEELS. Feelings get you in trouble...use your head.

Your hubby used you and won again...and I doubt VERY MUCH that you're any closer to your goal...and with your muchly depleted love bank your probly that much closer to losing your marriage. See, eventually the game ends one way or another...because no one can do this cycle endlessly.

I hope you find some true strength and inner peace, maybe throw in some self worth, and eventually excuse yourself from this cycle of pain. Once you do, although it will be painful at first, you will actually be doing both of you a favor, allowing you both the chance to grow in healthy ways.

And for the record...I lost both of my parents. My mother at age 4.5 and my father almost 10 years ago. I know how it feels to have to sell his car. I admit it hurts. I sat on the courthouse steps and lost it for the first time when I did that. But never did I use it as an excuse to order people around or to berate my spouse. It hurt and I dealt with it. People lose their fathers every day. It happens. Your hubby is using his death in a disgusting way.

Jen,
I'm at work and can't write much right now, but I will later. I have been thinking about you a lot- and please quit calling yourself stupid JEN!! You are not stupid, you are allowing someone else to degrade you, upset you, you are allowing someone else to control your self-esteem and he is doing a dandy job with it. This is no longer an issue of you being a WS. I can't believe I am saying that but I am. This is a situation where your H is not showing any love to you whatsoever, he is only controlling you and manipulating you and using anything and everything, all the while acting like you are the one with all the power. No. That is wrong. That is abusive. Stop the cycle. Please. Remember this- Jesus DIED on the cross for your sins, for my sins, for everyone's sins. He suffered and died because he KNEW what we would do in this life. He knew that we would hurt other people and mess up our lives so he came to save us. He loved us that much!! You have asked God for forgiveness, you have repented of your sin, now stop paying the price that jesus has already paid for you. Live a life filled with grace, not guilt. We are all trying to help you with our advice and that is why your H doesn't like it- because it loses his grip of guilt over you. Please...take care of yourself.

Hello Jen

I don't know lady, it seems very long since you are in this game of giving and taking...

Now I want you to sit down and think... are you making any progress??? I think you are not, and in time u just deteriorate of what's left or your M and YOU. I also want you to sit down and remember your H in the begining of the relationship... he was caring, he looked for you, he was mad about you, he was incredible right? Well now think about how he is this day, not before but this day. Does is he the same man? I bet he isn't and of course you aren't the same women also, you both deteriorated too much in time, BUT do you really want to spend the rest of your life with the man he is today?
Let me put it in this way... A man that manipulates you like a puppet, a man that is not compromised with your feelings, a man that only calls when he is down and want sex... you know... Is that the man you really want?
I'm sorry to tell you Jen but the man you are still in love in in the past, this man is a different one and you are still hooked to the man of the past. I know it happens to me also, but I'm willling to let him go... if he didn't beleive I was the most incredible women on earth then is not worth my time.

I don't know what did you expected from your future and why separating from this man is so hard for you. Your future is only a man or a family? I ask because maybe you think like me that you wanted a family and without this man your future gets mudy in a way. But family I can have WITH another man... get my point?

Anyhow if you feel like chatting at nights feel free to join us for some chat:

http://pub4.ezboard.com/bmarriagebuildersladies

Take good care of you Jen, change only what you can change wich is you...

Matilde,

QUOTE:
I'm sorry to tell you Jen but the man you are still in love in in the past, this man is a different one and you are still hooked to the man of the past. I know it happens to me also, but I'm willling to let him go... if he didn't beleive I was the most incredible women on earth then is not worth my time.
END QUOTE

Thanks for the reminder!!!!!!!

What's my next step then?

Wait for him to contact me, and the next time I flat out tell him my ultimatum again, and stick to it? (Work on this marriage wholeheartedly, be willing to go on dates with me in public, or you won't see me any more, and you can file for Dv.)

Or something else?

I wish I wasn't so easily manipulated. Years of practice I guess.

Jen

Jen,
I don't really know what advice for sure to give you, but I think I would go to Plan B. In the letter. And stick to it. Don't call, don't answer when he calls, nothing, because whenever he talks to you he degrades you and controls you and it just makes you feel worse. So that is my thoughts- anyone else?

Jen,

I'm gonna toss my thoughts around this post...take what you can or need...

I will tell you that your first conversation from him...was very informative...he gave you a a lot of insight into how he feeling...which is a very positive thing....

He also gave you lots of opportunities to define the boundaries you have chosen on a deeper level...

see if you can follow me on this...(with knowledge i could be waaay off... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but here's my take on things...and things you may want to think about telling him...

You guys are still stuck in the same cycle of blame and defense...and not an attack..it is the most common mistake..all people in relationships make...it's the easiest and known path...even when we know it serves no good..it's still the easiest...

Know that in feeling like you need to defend or define yourself...that you (like all of us) can miss opportunities to HEAR what the other is saying...

He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

this paragraph is full of information about how he is feeling....you need to take it slow...validate you "hear" him...but also take these type of things deeper....

give positive feedback for calling you..with limits that he is civil..but don't tell him only call me when you are civil...tell him that you really want to be able to have meaningful conversations with him..and want him to call you...
You don't have to challenge and verbalize your limits...set them and act on them IF the need arises...

Ask him why he would feel inferior to call you...share your feelings of inferiority with him...don't power struggle these issues...(not saying you are) but don't lose opportunities to process what he and you are TRYING to say to eachother....

Tell him that it is not true that you have any power over anyone but yourself...and that the last thing you want in a relationship is power...

"If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt.,

those hang a little on the LB side...sort of a veiled challenge..that can make him feel defensive...just be careful how you ask him things...

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today.

You say no I don't...and it sounds like a really awful day..and i am sorry that you had to do that...it must hurt a lot...

He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice.

did you ask him what his advice is?

and then the MB voice of reason that tells me to keep him guessing, make him come to me, not to go spend the night there, not to pursue him, etc.

I hope you find the MB voice telling you dig and work deeper than what he has been offering..but also you have to be open to the times like last night...where you two could have had some truly meaningful dialogue...

.that you have learned that all of this external patterns of avoidance and blame...solve nothing and waste everyones time....and that what you want is deeper than "keeping him guessing"...

perhaps you should read your first post again..look at what you wrote he told you...reflect on some of the things he said...and see if you can't help him with some of those things....that he may have reached out to you...but the only of knowing is to see if he is willing to really look at those thoughts and feelings...

ARK

Know that in feeling like you need to defend or define yourself...that you (like all of us) can miss opportunities to HEAR what the other is saying...

I typed all that he said, because I thought that some of it was progress, him opening up to me, and maybe for once telling me how he feels.

I tried to validate him, and tell him things like, "I see," and "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way."

give positive feedback for calling you.. That's quite challenging to do.

tell him that you really want to be able to have meaningful conversations with him..and want him to call you... Believe me, I've told him I really do want to keep on talking and open up to each other. Funny thing is, I absolutely dread answering the phone when he calls. I don't want to talk to him. It's rarely something that results in anything positive.

You don't have to challenge and verbalize your limits...set them and act on them IF the need arises...

That's what I guess I sort of had planned to do. But I don't have the nerve to clearly state my limits and stick to them, or so it seems from last nights events.

Ask him why he would feel inferior to call you...share your feelings of inferiority with him... I know honesty is good, but I thought weakness was unattractive and might push him away, so I wasn't about to tell him that I feel inferior to him. Actually, I don't feel inferior to him! I feel like I'm stuck being at his beck and call, but I certainly don't feel inferior. I'm doing more work here. I'm treating the people around me well. He's keeping his head in the sand, treating the people around him (me at least, and my SIL for one other) poorly.

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today. You say no I don't...and it sounds like a really awful day..and i am sorry that you had to do that...it must hurt a lot... Funny, I pretty much said those things. I said, "No I don't, tell me how it went." Then when he did I said,"Oh that must have been hard, I'm so sorry to hear you had to do that."

did you ask him what his advice is? Yes yes indeed, I have asked him this a couple of times. He says his advice is to be nice to him. To come over whenever he gets up the nerve to invite me over.

So Ark^^, you seem to think it's still okay, in fact perhaps a good idea to keep the lines of communication open with him. Have I misunderstood you? You are going out on a limb on the other side of the MB tree so to speak.

Jen

You guys are still stuck in the same cycle of blame and defense...and not an attack..it is the most common mistake..all people in relationships make...it's the easiest and known path...even when we know it serves no good..it's still the easiest...

So how do I get out of that cycle? Even if I change my behaviour, he's so good at being in that cycle, he can drag me back in (like last night). I guess the bigger question is how do WE get out of that cycle? (He WON'T go for MC.)

Jen, again

Jen,
In the posts I have seen of yours, I respectfully disagree with Ark. Let's make sure that all sides are clear. Is he still talking to the woman friends that you disapprove of, still doing whatever with them, still drinking too much and having strange women? Has he committed to stop doing this completely? When he tells you how he feels, it sounds like guilt trips and pity parties instead of truly expressing his feelings. He sounds like he still wants you to have to pay for all of his suffering- not only what you did with his BF which you have tried to repent and change from, but it also sounds like it is your fault that his dad died and that he is having to go through it and that you should feel privileged that he wants to have sex with you but have no conversation whatsoever, that might help to work on the marriage. He sounds like he wants to continue drinking, partying and using you. Maybe I am out of line, but that is what it sounds like to me. In my opinion, you can't keep groveling with this man who makes you feel like dirt. If my WH wanted to recover, then yes, I would probably go through a period of mourning and sadness and expressing how much he hurt me, but I hope to goodness that after all that has happened, that I wouldn't live day after day browbeating him and making him feel like no good and like he should lay down and do whatever I say. I think you will continue to be your H's whipping board until you put a stop to it. You don't have to be ugly or controlling or mean about it, just take care of yourself.

I believe ( sorry if I misread) that Ark was saying if you are going to answer the phone, do as much good as you can while you are there. She is not browbeating you, she is coaching. You know, "since you are on the phone, this is how you can do better while there."

I agree that he gave you much good informatition.

Jen, Keep in mind that there is no such think as the "perfect" plan. Those who counsel with the Harleys say the plan changes sometimes based on what happens.

You sometimes feel that if you do or say just the right thing he will change. I believe the formula is in HNHN. Time together and meet needs. I don't believe you have been able to do either one as you have liked.

You are also dealing with verbal and emotional abuse. I don't know how to tell you to deal with that, but I bet Steve or Jenifer could.

I believe Ark's suggestions were good. If you are going to accept calls, do as much with them as you possibly can.

I don't think you are stupid either, I think you are a normal human being. All of us can learn, and improve. All of us make mistakes. Remember that we here are not professional counselors, we are a support group, and there is a difference.

Overall, I would have to say I admire your effort to fix things. I think if you really want to give it your best effort, call Steve and see what he has to say.

SS

Thanks still seeking..that is exactly what I am saying...

I also believe that no one can control us, abuse us, manipulate us without our consent...and that is exactly what boundaries are for...

And I am certainly not browbeating you or telling you take 'abuse" or anything

So Ark^^, you seem to think it's still okay, in fact perhaps a good idea to keep the lines of communication open with him. Have I misunderstood you? You are going out on a limb on the other side of the MB tree so to speak. like that...

I am on the limb I guess jen...I have read a lot of your posts that really focused on him...and his behaviours and some where you went searching others to validate your impressions of him...and each time I have advocated to let that go...and bring the focus back to you...

I will always advocate keeping the lines of communication open...and each time you communicate with him...and he crosses a boundary you remove yourself from the conversation....
each and every time...
The more you change jen and grow...the more the outcome will be...that he will
1. give up...decide that you are all these horrible things in the name of justifying his own bad behaviour and choices...but you will know the truth...that he chose to cling to the known bad behaviors
2. Realize that he has to change himself...cause the old way doesn't work with you anymore...

If he chooses 1...then you know you have done what you could...that you have grown in leaps and bounds REGARDLESS of your past actions and leave him in the dust...Remember YOU are becoming a person so far distanced from the person you were that had an affair..that you will come out stronger and with a great foundation of what really makes a relationship between two people work...
I pray he comes a long the ride with you...
lots of change
lots of growth...
but people do it all the time...

If he chooses to it will come with lots of growing pains...lots of slipping back and forth...the goal is not him...the goal is YOU no longer accepting a shadow of true intimate relationship with him or anyone else...

But you two lived a long time...with accepting things that don't make a good foundation...
his friends have been in the picture a long time...and your digression...

so as much as you rally now against it...as you should and must...know that you "allowed" it for a long time as well...and this takes time...

people don't like change....scarey scarey stuff.

Jen it's done when you say it's done....not me or anyone else...and having contact does not mean subjecting yourself to LB pain...but it can mean emotional pain of working through the issues...these things get blurred...and the 'real thoughts and feelings and hurt" also gets jammed in with the disrepect and blame game....

focus on the real stuff...don't believe, buy into the old meany stuff...
that's your boundary....all about you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with calling Steve...

ARK

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts. I don't know where to start in responding to them though.

I just don't know what to say or do at the moment. I am tired (I didn't sleep that well there last night, and I'm sick with a bad cold). My head is swimming. I don't know what to do next.

I don't think plan B is in me. But I want to be treated better. Sigh. Big SIGH.

A very selfish part of me said to me today, "Self, do you really want to be with a man who appears about to go through years of depression over his dad's death, and what you've done to him? Do you want to be with a man who's whole family will be in that same depression for years to come?"

I am still stressing about whether or not to go skiing with my girl friend this weekend, or stick around just in case my H tries to contact me b/c it's his birthday, etc. She's calling me later tonight to see what I've decided. I know I shouldn't focus on him, and just do what makes me happy, but I am completely torn. Go, try to have fun, avoid him. Or stay, still keep busy and don't sit around waiting for him, but I'm close enough to home I could see him if he invited me.

My mind's too muddled right now. I'm going to rest for a while. I'll check back in later.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hey Jen,

I think you did just fine!!!!! It is OK to love this man... You do not have to feel guilty about who you love, just like I don't or anybody else.....

Just a couple of things to fine tune and you will start to see MORE progress... You are making progress, but you keep slowing it down because of a couple of things you do.(which can be corrected if you apply them)

He called me last night after midnight. I didn't answer. He called tonight, early evening, I was out. He called again a bit later, we just talked.

This is all good so far.... He called YOU.. YOU just talked... What is bad about that? NOTHING.
(remember to be happy just the way things are)

I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call.

He apologized for calling and politely ended the call? What is wrong with that? NOTHING... this is good also.....(remember to look at the good in all of your situations)

Then he called back a couple minutes later. He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

Now, THIS is where you could have applied the AGREE with him principle. He opened himself up at first, but then decided to blame you part way through his confession of how hard it was...

This is ok too... He is allowed to have feelings isn't he? right or wrong, they are his feelings......

Now, when he called you callous, and when he said you did not know how to love him.... THIS is the exact moment to agree..... Here is what I would have said.........

"Yes, you are right, I guess that I can come across as callous sometimes. And yes, I also agree with you that I don't think I do know how to love you."

THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO!!!!! Just agree with his statements....

Now, this next exchange is where you got more off track....

I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights,

You are not accepting things "just as they are"
Everytime you go in that direction and try to PRESSURE him to give more than you are getting, this is where it goes back to the same ole, same ole for both of you......

He asked me why it disgusts me that he finds me sexually attractive. I told him that wasn't the case, that I just want more than that. He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.

He is right.. Why don't you agree with him when he says you should be happy to know that he finds you so attractive? If you would have agreed instead of saying you want more, then this could have and would have taken a different direction.....

Now, as for going over to be with him...
If you want to go see him, then GO... If you do not then tell him nicely that you will not tonight...

Then if you do go see him...Just ENJOY the time with him... don't ask for more or talk about the future in any way... just enjoy your time with the man you say you love...You are applying your own guilt. (If you decide to go, tell MR. GUILT that you are not going to listen to that little voice he always gives you)

That is it... It is that easy..... You have not consistently tried being happy just the way the relationship is , and you have not learned how powerful it is to agree with HIS view of things...

It is not validating to a person when you say to them, "I am sorry you feel that way"... People take that as meaning that they are WRONG and you disagree... The best way to validate is to completely agree with their view and then be silent.....

Please fine tune your skills... He is contacting you and wanting to see you... Relax and enjoy...
If you do not want to talk to him when he calls, just do not answer the phone until you feel confident....

Jen, your H has known that his birthday is coming up for YEARS now. And if he hasn't thought to invite you out to do anything yet for this year, then don't count on him doing so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Go and have fun with your gal pals!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you're really having doubts, then be the better person and ask HIM out for his birthday. Choose his favourite restaurant, and make it a real date. If he turns you down, or hums and haws over it, take back the offer for now, and ask if he may consider a raincheck for another time. Then go and have fun!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm truly sorry that he's still in his pity party over the passing of his father. But you know you can't MAKE him go out and have fun with you, it's up to him. If he chooses to not go, then it's his choice.

The hard reality is, death happens. But life goes on. It's a tough lesson to learn for some, but imperitive. You can't get over the grief until you go through it first. Your H is at a standstill. There's not much more you can do to help him aside from inviting him to attend outings with you every now and then.

And just because he's chosen to stop living, sure as he!! doesn't mean that you have to do the same. (of course, if he were committed to recovery, then staying with him and POJAing would be imperitive).

Sleep well tonight Jen... and don't forget to turn off the ringers on your phones!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

Okay I don't completely agree with what most are saying about your husband's motives.

Is he manipulating you? YES!

Is he controlling you? NO! In fact I am not so sure he is in control of himself.

Let me explain.

IF he truly still loves you BUT he just can't forgive you then he is torn between two sets of powerful emotions....the ones wanting this all to go away and for things to be right and the ones that hate and loath you for what you did.

Now Jen I am not saying he is right simply trying to put forth another possibility.

Despite how badly I want things to work out between my wife and me I find myself from time to time feeling like what happened is totally unacceptable and I cannot forgive much less forget. In those moments I want to PUNISH in every way possible shy of physically striking her. When I feel that way initially I can't control the rage that comes out....slowly I get my grip back but not after some very hateful venting.

So my question is this....was your husband a relatively nice guy before all of this happened?

I mean did he respect or was he controlling and manipulative well before the you know what hit the fan?

Many a BS will destroy any chance of reconcilation without even realizing it until its too late.

As long as you run back to him he can inflict mental pain on you......and does so because he has suffered the same pain because of your actions. Two wrongs won't make you two right...but if he indeed is torn then he is no more rational as a betrayed spouse in a fog than the wayward spouse was when they were in their fog.

Just want to point out that he may not be manipulating you solely for physical pleasure but to dump pain back on you that he feels he has a right to because of your actions. He is of course wrong and childish in his actions if that is what he is doing.....but emotional state a betrayed spouse feels after discovery is probably as powerful as the fog waywards spouses feel when in an affair.

oh mercy. Jen, I know your head has to be spinning with all these answers, but I have to say that ark's second message I agreed a lot with. You have got to get the focus back on YOU!! Change for YOU!!! Love YOU!!! Know that YOU are changing and being a better woman!!
I am not sure I ever agree with the concept that Keepmvn4wrd is talking about. While I don't think I need to yell, scream and angrily disagree with my WH, I sure don't think I need to smile and agree with everything either. How crazy that would drive me...and him too I think. Because he knows it isn't real. He knows it is put on. I can't agree with someone just to make them happy. Now, as far as not getting in an argument and saying "yeh, maybe I do come across like that to you" or "I can see your point" - well maybe. You are validating him and saying that his feelings matter to you and that he has a right to them. But to go so far as to AGREE - I think that is just babble and dangerous- it isn't honest and if you are like me, it will make you madder later because it will eat you up inside.
As far as his bday, I think Topie had it right on the money. He knows when his birthday is every year and can invite you to do something. Please don't sit at home waiting for him- go have fun and relax with your friend, or ask him yourself if he wants to do something- if you really want to. I personally don't think you want to from what I read of your thoughts, but I could be wrong. I think you are wanting to out of guilt and not true desire. Please tell me if I am correct or not...I want to understand where you are coming from.
Stunned dad said: "but emotional state a betrayed spouse feels after discovery is probably as powerful as the fog waywards spouses feel when in an affair." This is true to a point- however, as a BS I feel like my head has been screwed on right most of the time. And while I am hurt and confused, I am not out there. I have my senses about me. Yes, I blowup and say crazy things and possibly do crazy things given a chance, but there comes a time to grow up and face the music and start to heal- it has been almost a year since this- and normally I would think it is just a trigger time and he is having it rough- but has he gotten ANY better in the past year? Or worse? I am asking because I really don't know- I just started posting in March. But think about it- you seem to have the idea that this depression thickness is going to last for years. And I hope you don't want to be in a "prison of the past" as my pastor talked of at church tonight.....

Jen,
my email address is tn_titans@Juno.com- I would like to send you a CD in the mail of this pastor's topic tonight- I think it could help you. He is a very cool pastor who has seen lots and lots of LIFE happenings....He started a church for people who didn't want to go to church- real hope for real people in the real world.

[ April 30, 2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

Adgirl48,

I agree,it probably would make you crazy to agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But it WORKS!!!! Obviously you have not tried it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen,

hey there. I came on over from the divorced board. You know, coming here is kinda like giving up cigarettes. You tell everyone on the planet you are giving up cigarettes, and the second you light up, there is a whole crowd of people looking at you like "I thought you didn't smoke anymore" then you wish you didn't tell everyone you were gonna quit in the first place. Ok, I'm rambling now, but the moral of the story is that sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference.

I do have to say this though...after just reading three posts my thought was, this is really messed up. Right around the time of my divorce, my ex said he was starting to feel guilty about things, and I said "Is that so horrible to bear?" as if, I was the only one who had ever done anything to feel guilty about. BULLSH*T!!

I don't think that anything someone gets out of you because of guilt is valid or is anything to be proud of. It's like getting sex from a drunk person, or even worse, one that is passed out. The fact that your ex would be more attracted to you when you feel like cr*p about yourself is pathological.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TheStudent:
Jen,

hey there. I came on over from the divorced board. You know, coming here is kinda like giving up cigarettes. You tell everyone on the planet you are giving up cigarettes, and the second you light up, there is a whole crowd of people looking at you like "I thought you didn't smoke anymore" then you wish you didn't tell everyone you were gonna quit in the first place. Ok, I'm rambling now, but the moral of the story is that sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference.

I don't think that anything someone gets out of you because of guilt is valid or is anything to be proud of. It's like getting sex from a drunk person, or even worse, one that is passed out. The fact that your ex would be more attracted to you when you feel like cr*p about yourself is pathological.<hr /></blockquote>I can't believe I am saying this, because I think I have disagreed with her a lot, but I agree with the Student!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Keepmvn4wrd:
Adgirl48,

I agree,it probably would make you crazy to agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But it WORKS!!!! Obviously you have not tried it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Ok I admit that first part was funny. As for the second part....you judge too quickly. I have tried it, and I don't think it works in every case and that it is ludicrous to think that it would. You can only agree with "fog talk" and crazy thinking and things that go against your very beliefs for so long, before you are more messed up yourself, because you haven't been true to yourself, which is the whole point of most of the troubles, is that if people took care of themselves (in a boundary setting, not selfish way) and stopped trying to "fix and enable others" (as I have been known to do- I am hitting myself with that 2x4) then a lot of us wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. But hey, JMHO.

So many perspectives! Thanks, but I don't know how to respond really.

I found one question I'd like to answer though: So my question is this....was your husband a relatively nice guy before all of this happened?

Yes he was a relatively nice guy, in fact generally quite a loving husband. I was happy in my marriage. I used to thank God every night before bed for giving me such a wonderful husband, and for giving us both good health, and a good life together.

Here's what I was somewhat dissatisfied with prior to my affair (what I think I was aware of back then):
1) I could've done without my H having female colleagues for close friends too, but my solution to this was to just about always be around if he spent time with them.
2) He has always been somewhat controlling or emotionally manipulative though, but not all of the time. I do know that I found myself feeling like I was always the one at fault, and I was always the one apologizing, etc.
3) His family always came ahead of my family.
4) He also off and on would get really mad at me for not being as "domestic" as he'd like me to be. I'm just not as tidy a person as he is. I could live with dishes in the sink for a few hours, I could live with a full hamper of laundry for a few days, I could live with a pile of newspapers laying around for a while, etc. He couldn't.
5) We were spending more and more time out drinking with our friends (a group that included his 2 female buddies and OM) and less and less time alone together. (Although, to be fair, this followed the great stress of his mom going through breast cancer surgery.)
6) Sometimes I felt like me talking to my H was becoming more of an irritation than something he welcomed. He made jokes about me being more beautiful when I was quiet.

So that's all that I thought was kind of amiss with my M prior to the A. All things I thought weren't that big of a deal, and that would resolve themselves eventually. Hmmm....

I can't focus on all of your thoughts and suggestions tonight. I'm still debating whether to go away or not this weekend. I'm still really worried that somehow my H will reach out to me this weekend, and I won't be here, and he'll never let me live it down. My friend is very kind and said I could let her know tomorrow, then she'll make the reservations.

I'm giving up and going to bed for now.

Jen

PS: I think the point that has really hit home so far was the remark TheStudent made, that "sometime, somewhere, you will reach a point where you know deep down in your heart what you need to do. At that point, you will be calm and resolute and you will do what needs to be done, whatever that may be. Until that time, nothing that anyone else tells you to do will necessarily make a whole lot of difference."

Hi Jen,
I still keep checking back in on your posts, following your story. No need for me to respond really with all the great advice you've been getting.
This latest thread has disturbed me somewhat though, because you have just started the cycle all over again.
You know what changes you have to make to feel better and for a while you were doing that.
But you just took a glance down that road, instead opting for the more familar route.
Now your in a state of confusion, by choice. Asking for and getting the same advice you've already gotten. Hoping maybe that there is some easier way to find some peace.
It's going to be hard that's for sure. But remember, you aren't doing you or your H any favors by continuing this cycle.
I realize that it is very easy for me to say this looking in from the outside. But to me you are like an alcohlic. You are going to keep going back for more, trying to find comfort in the bottle (H). Eventually you will hit rock bottom where you dispise your H or yourself, likely both.

The only advice I have for you is work hard at coming to terms with all the guilt you have. It's dragging you down. Maybe you feel like you haven't been punished enough yet.
How much punishment is enough before you can start to feel better?

Wishing you the best,
Brad

Thanks for dropping by to give me your thoughts How? I appreciate it. I don't know what to do about this guilt dragging me down. I don't think it's because I don't feel like I've been punished enough yet. I think it's because my marriage is still unresolved. If he would decide he's leaving me, I could suck it up, put the guilt aside and move on. If he would decide he wants to be with me, I could put the guilt aside and focus on the marriage. It's the undecided limbo that keeps my guilt alive, and keeps me as his pawn.

So I've been debating about what to do with my weekend and whether to go away or not. I can't get past this to the bigger picture of the endless cycle I've gotten back into. Heck, me stressing over this is Jen all wrapped up in my H's controlling nature as it is. I wouldn't stress about it if I wasn't worried about what he thought.

Here's something that helped me decide that I SHOULD go: As far as his bday, I think Topie had it right on the money. He knows when his birthday is every year and can invite you to do something. Please don't sit at home waiting for him- go have fun and relax with your friend, or ask him yourself if he wants to do something- if you really want to. I personally don't think you want to from what I read of your thoughts, but I could be wrong. I think you are wanting to out of guilt and not true desire. Please tell me if I am correct or not...I want to understand where you are coming from.

You're right Topie and Adgirl, he's known his birthday is coming for a while now. If he wanted to make plans with me, he's had ample time. I KNOW, without a doubt, that he would have ZERO interest in doing something "nice" for his b-day with me, like going out for dinner, or going out anywhere with me for that matter. The only thing I'd expect him to want this weekend is for me to make another overnight visit. I could also imagine him showing up here dreadfully late at night. Or even calling me in the middle of the night, drunk and depressed.

I don't want to invite him to do something, because I will be ignored or rejected. The big reason why I would stay here this weekend would be out of fear, not guilt really, but fear. Fear of him trying to get in contact with me, and me not being around, and him finding out I left town, and then him using the fact that I left town as one more thing against me on a list of things I've done wrong.

What is that tag line someone has, you cannot be in love with someone whom you fear?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Okay Jen the 64,000 question.....did the affair bring out the real him when it comes to controlling and manipulating?

I think it did. He had the excuse to unleash his inner demons on you.

Why do I say that?

Simple during my recovery/discovery I became a very angry raging person. My nature is very laid back easy going. As some of my old girl----space--friends as opposed to girlfriends--described me as the nicest guy they ever met (kiss of death in romance sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) and my friends and golfing buddies described as the type that would give you the shirt off his back.

But here I was out of control with rage. I own a liquor store but often joked I would starve if I had to live off what I drank. But I found myself drinking regularly and sometimes excessively.

I love my children and love interacting with them. But suddenly I had no patience for them and didn't want to play with them.

So for me the discovery of the affair turned me into something/somebody I was not.

Gradually I am returning to my old self. I have more patience and play time for the kids. I am golfing again with friends after a 5 month absence.

Quit drinking to get drunk. Almost back to drinking on special occassions only but still every now and then one to soothe the nerves.

Most important of all ....I have cut down both the number and intensity of times I rage against my wife.

Why?

Well foremost I truly love her.
Secondly I am not that person the affair turned me into.
Thirdly thanks to reading your posts Jen I have come to recognize the pain my actions cause the one I love.

In contrast it seems to me your husband is becoming more of the person he really is. He has gone from somewhat controlling/manipulative to outright controlling and manipulative.

Some of this no doubt is a result of the anger side of your affair. Some even as payback for the pain you caused him. But based on what you have posted over the last several weeks it looks like he is really showing his inner self.

BTW I am begginning to feel your husband's actions sexually are aimed at reducing from a person he loved to an object he can use.

In a sick sort of way this gives a sense of power over you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Thirdly thanks to reading your posts Jen I have come to recognize the pain my actions cause the one I love.

In contrast it seems to me your husband is becoming more of the person he really is. He has gone from somewhat controlling/manipulative to outright controlling and manipulative.

Some of this no doubt is a result of the anger side of your affair. Some even as payback for the pain you caused him. But based on what you have posted over the last several weeks it looks like he is really showing his inner self <hr /></blockquote>I'm glad my drama could be of some use to you!! It's not all for nothing then.

Your post (and specifically your suggestion that my A has perhaps brought my H's true nature to the surface) makes me think of another famous quote, but I may not have the words right: "The way people behave under pressure reveals their true nature."?

Jen

Jen-

I started a great post to you and I erased it!!!! I HATE when that happens...

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that when I read your threads, I see ME! The situations are different, the circumastances were different, but in the end it all translates into the same thing.

You are being victimized. Worse, You are allowing that to happen to yourself because in your mind, if you are just a "little bit better" than you used to be, H will love you again and rush back into your arms. How do I know this, I think this way too.

You described PRE-A Hubby:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />1) I could've done without my H having female colleagues for close friends too, but my solution to this was to just about always be around if he spent time with them.
2) He has always been somewhat controlling or emotionally manipulative though, but not all of the time. I do know that I found myself feeling like I was always the one at fault, and I was always the one apologizing, etc.
3) His family always came ahead of my family.
4) He also off and on would get really mad at me for not being as "domestic" as he'd like me to be. I'm just not as tidy a person as he is. I could live with dishes in the sink for a few hours, I could live with a full hamper of laundry for a few days, I could live with a pile of newspapers laying around for a while, etc. He couldn't.
5) We were spending more and more time out drinking with our friends (a group that included his 2 female buddies and OM) and less and less time alone together. (Although, to be fair, this followed the great stress of his mom going through breast cancer surgery.)
6) Sometimes I felt like me talking to my H was becoming more of an irritation than something he welcomed. He made jokes about me being more beautiful when I was quiet.
<hr /></blockquote>If I had posted this and you read it, WHAT would YOU think about X's actions? I ask this, because you described him 90%.

You will not "SEE" it until you are ready so no amount of preaching will get you to change. I only want you to know that you are not STUPID, CRAZY, WRONG, BAD, or anything of the sort. You are a remorseful person that is trying their hardest to make up for past mistakes. You feel guilty, and that guilt is what is holding you as a victim.

Many have told you that your husband has you right where he wants you. They are dead on. The problem with this is that it's killing you because you want something from him that he will not give you.

You have TWO options:

1. Continue to accept the SCRAPS that he keeps throwing your way. Continue to BELIEVE what he tells you - that YOU are the unworthy person.

or

2. Send that plan B letter.

Jen,

Please have faith. Your Husband is the one with MAJOR issues. You have them too, but YOU are being responsible and dealing with them. If you send this letter, and reach a place where the idea of the loss of your H hurts, but doesn't cripple you, You will start to see changes that you never thought possible...

Don't keep yourself down anymore, it's time to forgive yourself and to live again.

By the way, THANK YOU for sharing your story, it has allowed me to get one step closer to closure.

Kily and Stunned Dad are right on. I think that Stunned Dad helped me to see that I am really a more loving person than once thought. Pre-A I was angry and impatient and I feel like now I am doing much better- much more of a compassionate, patient, non-judgmental person. And I will take that anytime. Why waste an experience that might be one of the worst in your life, to turn into a crappy person instead of learning from it and growing?! The best thing that has happened through this mess for me is that I have changed. I like me a lot more, I love God a lot more because it is relationship and not religion- there is NOTHING i can do to earn his love, and because I see now that people who don't love me, for me, are not truly on my side, and out for my well being. And I can accept that, without having to lose myself because of it. Jen, your H is not out for your well being right now. Take care of yourself- release yourself from that prison of guilt- and for once in a LONG time- go have fun this weekend!!!! Try Plan B if you are up to it.

Jen,
If you want me to send you this cd email me your address-if not that is ok too. I just thought it might help you- it was awesome- even if you never go to church- this pastor is definitely different and helpful- talks of how you should release yourself from the past.......

adgirl-

Can I get a copy?

Kily_MB@hotmail.com

jen,

from a person who went back many times after I swore I wouldn't...

The first time you walked down that street, you fell in a hole and had a h*ll of a time getting out...the second time you walked down that street, you fell part way in a hole, but got out alot quicker. The third time you walked down that street, you saw a hole and stepped around it...and the last time, well, you just didn't go down that street at all.

Jen,
I have tried to follow this thread as best I can, but there's many replies in a short time.

I hesitated to even say what I 'm going to say, as I don't even like bringing up this person. But Jen, your husband sounds so much like the OM I was involved with for years, it is unreal.

I can understand how he manipulated into going to his place that night, he's a master at it. He plays you like a fiddle, right? The domineering, controlling ways...OM to a tee.

OM and I played these sorts of games all of the time. It was awful for me. I think if you've never been in a R like this, it's impossible to know what it's like.

Plan B is the only way, or you'll be a prisoner to the manipulation.

One piece of advice to you. DOn't think that your entire future with him hinges on ONE NIGHT, and if you go there or not. THis is what ..isn't it..what psychologists call 'magical thinking'. If he loves you, he can stand one night of rejection from you. If he loves you so little that he can't take it, then who needs him?

I've been hoping to reconcile with my now exhusband since last August, in a serious fashion...and longer before that,he knew I had interest. He has rejected me continually. Does that stop my love for him? No, it doesn't. So please don't think if you don't go that 'one night', it's done forever. What kind of love is that. You deserve so much more than this man, in my opinion.

Jen, there's a cute phrase I say to people, when they're overly dramatic. The phrase is, "Save the drama, for Mama!" I only say that to you now as you yourself talk of your drama. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Don't you get tired of it?

BTW, did you do the homework assignment I gave you awhile back? Is that list of 'cons' on the refrigerator, or somewhere hidden for you to study from time to time? Just a thought, GF.
Take care,
H_P

kily -Thanks for YOUR post, to let me know I'm not nuts, that someone else has felt like me. I know, I know, Plan B sounds smart to me again. Maybe next week when I have time to "craft" a letter.

adgirl - check your email!

TheStudent - That's an encouraging analogy, thanks!

Hopeful_Person - Your preference for plan B for me is noted. Yes, I did that homework, I ended up with quite a list of things. Funny thing is that in the list of things he's done to hurt me, there are many things on that list that he did, perhaps not with the intention of hurting me, but that certainly did.

You said: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Plan B is the only way, or you'll be a prisoner to the manipulation.

One piece of advice to you. DOn't think that your entire future with him hinges on ONE NIGHT, and if you go there or not. THis is what ..isn't it..what psychologists call 'magical thinking'. If he loves you, he can stand one night of rejection from you. If he loves you so little that he can't take it, then who needs him? <hr /></blockquote>Good point. If one night or one phone call gone bad is enough to give up on me, then let him give up on me. That, and I've had about 11 months of separation, with him treating me poorly throughout. Why would he change now?

I was just leafing through some old MB posts I had printed from last summer. First of all, I traced back what led up to me moving out. He DID tell me he wanted me out. I didn't suggest it, he told me HE wanted me out. But I chose to go rather than continuing to live with him treating me so poorly, and with no commitment to working on the M. Second, I found a highlighted quote made by findingmywayback. Reading it today, it is a sheer statement of brilliance: "He is used to having control of you. I imagine he doesn't want you back if he feels he can't control you."

I fear he's going to call tonight, b/c that card I mailed is likely there by now. I plan not to answer I guess.

Thanks for your continued effort to make me wake up folks. I am very thankful for you all!

Jen

He may say I don't know how to love him, but I know him pretty well. As predicted, he phoned me late last night, 2x on house phone 1x on cell phone, and I did NOT answer at all.

I think he's going to go insane this weekend without me here to dump on, harass, and to try to make me feel like dirt again.

I guess if he and I talk next week and he asks where I was I have to be honest with him? And he will tell me my priorities are screwed up for going away, even though we had no plans, he will firmly believe his personal punching bag should be ready and waiting for him.

This little weekend trip may end our marriage, but it's better than being here and being dumped on.

Jen

Jen

It is not your weekend trip that will end your M. It is your H's behaviour and unwillingness to address his issues that will end your M. Well, no, it takes two to make or break a M, but you have been addressing your issues and working hard to resolve the problems that led to your A.

Going away for the weekend is the wise thing to do. Do you want to sit waiting for his drunken abusive phone calls, and the guilt to start welling up again, and then the should I run to him for SF or not situation?

I feel so very sorry for your H being so destructive. I hope he wakes up one day and starts to look inside himself for some answers rather than to continue to lash out at you, or when you move on, the poor person that comes along to fill your shoes. Jen, I truly believe if I had not been in Plan B, my situaiton would be very similar to yours (perhaps without the alcohol). I don't know how much more you can take dear girl.

Enjoy your weekend, have fun, and do not worry about what H is or isn't doing. You'll find out soon enough.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Jen I hope you enjoy your weekend and return to us stronger than ever. Whatever you decide, know that what you have done since d-day, is what most of us, FBS, would have dreamed our WS had done. I have no doubt that in the end, you're going to find happiness one way or another. You deserve it kiddo.

[ May 02, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Thanks Lisa and TMCM. I really needed some encouragement like that.

It is sad how afraid I am of my H, afraid of upsetting him. I still catch myself worrying what his reaction will be to my not being here for him to use as a punching bag.

It's funny, that old quote from an August MB post keeps ringing in my mind: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> "He is used to having control of you. I imagine he doesn't want you back if he feels he can't control you." <hr /></blockquote>He doesn't want me back to have someone to love, honour, cherish and enjoy time with. He wants me back IF he can control me, otherwise he probably figures he may as well look for someone else. Maybe he feels such an intense need to have me completely under control b/c he is fearful of me being unfaithful again, that would make sense, but it still isn't healthy to live that way.

Well, time to go to work. I'll check in here again before I leave this evening.

Jen:)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
He may say I don't know how to love him, but I know him pretty well. As predicted, he phoned me late last night, 2x on house phone 1x on cell phone, and I did NOT answer at all.

I think he's going to go insane this weekend without me here to dump on, harass, and to try to make me feel like dirt again.

I guess if he and I talk next week and he asks where I was I have to be honest with him? And he will tell me my priorities are screwed up for going away, even though we had no plans, he will firmly believe his personal punching bag should be ready and waiting for him.

This little weekend trip may end our marriage, but it's better than being here and being dumped on.

Jen<hr /></blockquote>Good for you not answering. And if he and you talk next week....well if you were in Plan B you wouldn't have to talk. And maybe after this weekend, a breather, a relaxer, you can have the strength to go to Plan B. But if you don't, then just be strong and set your boundaries and tell him you went skiing with a friend to have SOME FUN!!!!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
Jen I hope you enjoy your weekend and return to us stronger than ever. Whatever you decide, know that what you have done since d-day, is what most of us, FBS, would have dreamed our WS had done. I have no doubt that in the end, you're going to find happiness one way or another. You deserve it kiddo.<hr /></blockquote>TMCM is right in that I would give anything for my ex-WH to have worked as hard as you have. The shoe goes on the other foot too though- without meaning to sound arrogant or conceited in any way, I know that some WS would give anything to have a BS like me and many others here who would do anything even after the A to save the marriage. The moral of this story is- some people just don't "get it" and sometimes they will wake up and sometimes they will just keep sleepwalking and wasting their life away. Sad but true. You know the saying "You don't know what you've got til it's gone" - well I think some people are so thick skulled and foggy they still don't get it then. Your H may be one of them.

JMHO,

Even though you say that you KNOW your WS will turn down an invitation out for his Birthday..I suggest that you ask him anyway. Ask so that it eases your mind that YOU made an attempt...and so that you KNOW exactly how you rank on his list.

One of the things that always upset me was when people would tell me that they KNEW how I was going to respond without giving me the chance to respond. Give him his chance. Make sure that he understands that you want to take him out in a "public" arena for time to celebrate. He can never accuse you of not making mention of it or ignoring it. If he declines then take your trip away and rest assured that you tried. If he wants only a "secret" little get together, then you know where you still stand with him.

committed

Jen-

Time for a reality check here - GF YOU are being emotionally ABUSED! Take a GOOD hard look in the mirror girl...it's time to "see" the situation for what it REALLY is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He doesn't want me back to have someone to love, honour, cherish and enjoy time with. He wants me back IF he can control me, otherwise he probably figures he may as well look for someone else. Maybe he feels such an intense need to have me completely under control b/c he is fearful of me being unfaithful again, that would make sense, but it still isn't healthy to live that way.
<hr /></blockquote>THIS is completely WRONG!!! YOU are giving HIM too much credit and power. YOu still see this as HE is RIGHT and you are WRONG. GF this isn't the case!

Here is what I see...

Your H SET YOU UP! He wanted you to have an A so that HE could be free to do WHATEVER the hell he wanted to do without guilt. He's been having E/A's if not P/A's for SOME time...I believe that he was having one when he set you up for your fall. YES JEN- YOU HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED. Are you pi$$ed yet? You should be...if you are, ask WHY. Is it because what I'm saying is complete crap? OR does this hit on uncomfortable things that you don't want to feel?

Get ANGRY!!! Get REAL ANGRY...Do not act out on this anger. Feel it, process it, and start to heal.

Why does he want to CONTROL you? Not for the reasons you listed..the reason is, because his own life is SO out of control that he NEEDS you. If YOU slip away, HE has to face himself. Too much pain there...

Stop underestimating yourself. Start LISTENING to your feelings. He doesn't deserve you.

I disagree with committed. He has proved to you how he will react, time and time again. This is like a BS who keeps beating her head against the wall because she keeps trusting WS even though she knows he is lying (yep, did that) - your H's ACTIONS have shown how he will react. TIme and again. So change the cycle, quit beating yourself up and GO HAVE FUN!!!!

GO KILY!!!!!! I totally agree...one more thing, if he feels he has to control you bc you were unfaithful, then it would never be a marriage. I would not reconcile with my WH ever, unless I really thought that I would not spend my life making him pay for his mistakes. I don't want to be married to someone who feels his whole life like he owes me. Yes, trusting and respecting would take a while to achieve, but why bother trying if you are only going to resent that person forever?
Make sense or am I rambling?

I beleive I posted this before but I beleive it's importance can never be underestimated (like most of Dr Harley's words):

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment. <hr /></blockquote>Does this article ring a bell with you Jen?

Jen -
Two more things...

To answer the QUESTION posed in your post:

You FEEL so bad because it wasn't the RIGHT thing. You betrayed your inner voice, put yourself in a degrading situation, scarificed your integrity, all because you wanted to be loved.

I aborted a CHILD for the same reasons Jen. We all do these types of things because we don't know any different. That's why we post, learn, question, and grow...

The other thing...if you don't REALLY trust what I'm saying about your H, review his actions as of late...His late night drunken calls, his attempts at making you feel guilty....are these actions from someone who has his life together? They remind me of actions from someone that is desperate and lost. Someone that needs to be taken care of. Kind of like a child that is looking for attention from it's mother and isn't getting it.

Food for thought...

I think that if you really love your H and REALLY want to give your all to reconstruct your marriage, you should listen to the sage advise of ARK^^ and Committed. Keepmvn4wrd gave you some great ideas on how to change the poor communication pattern you and H are stuck in. Individual counseling can help you to learn how to further CHANGE those non productive patterns for good and help you role play how to move out of non productive communication with your H when important issues need to be addressed. The other advise you've been getting might help YOU, (be divorced) but it won't help save your marriage. It reflects advice reserved for the betrayed not the wayward, IMHO. You made reference in your first post to MB voice that tells you to "keep him guessing, make him come to you, not pursue him". That's advise for the BS that has a fence sitting WS. It's not going to work in your situation. You are the one that had the affair, no matter how many faults he has, nothing changes that fact. Your job as the WS is to HELP him heal, in the way he is comfortable with, not your own.

Your H is DEVESTATED. He's also sufferred another HUGE loss in his life, one that throws LOTS of men into MLC. If you want to save your marriage and your H is overall a good man you must stop expecting him to heal on your time table. It's been just a year, plus he's lost his dad. Does this excuse his behavior, of course not. But please step back and look objectively. He keeps reaching out to you in the only way he knows how. He's given you some HUGE insight into him feeling inferior and rejected.You said yourself that he approached you in a KIND and SINCERE manner. When you called him back to ask if you could come over and he sounded "commanding and controlling" and you felt turned off, looking from the outside in, I see a man wanting not to control YOU so much but to have some control over what he lost (his manhood,his feelings of virility) when you slept with his best friend. You interpret it from your view, of how you want sex with your husband to be now, FOR YOU, and get turned off. Step back a little and look deeply into where he's at. Maybe he has very poor skills on how to get his real feelings across, but I see him trying, in maybe the only way he feels comfortable, getting back to where he feels comfortable and trying to gain back what he lost, when all of this happened.

Don't assume he'll reject an invitation for his birthday. You know what happens when we [censored] U Me!
Give him the benefit of the doubt, you'd want him to do the same for you. Treat him as you'd want him to treat you. Would you want him to ask you out for your birthday? Then ask him. You will feel better knowing you gave your all. Then if he declines go have some fun on your own.

Why don't you just see what will happen Jen, if you start saying "yes" to him instead of "no", work hard not to be defensive, and accept his feelings for what they are, just his feelings. Remember feelings change! Have you considered that maybe he needs you to validate his feelings, no matter how ugly they are,before he can let go of them and start to feel better enough to want to make some bigger steps forward. He's making baby steps and has been, but I see you always wanting more than he can give and making demands.

I'm not trying to be mean. I know you're sad and lonely and beaten down from the stress of how long this negativeness and crisis has gone on. But what you have been doing isn't working. He's out and out told you it isn't working. He wants you to want him. Call him, show him and if he starts in with the put downs and emotional abuse calmly say you find it hurtful,remove yourself from the situation, calmly and quietly, and leave him to reflect on his own bad behavior for a bit. Do not give him a single thing he can use to distract himself from his own behavior.What do you have to lose at this point Jen? You ARE a strong woman. You have grown tremendously from your mistake. Go out on a limb and give a little more. Have a positive expectation of him. Refuse to have negative expectations. Remember, he's lost more than you have at this point. Do your best to help give some of that back to him and see what happens. All the best to you and a hug too!

TMCM - I recognize that article/story.

mthrhbrd - I will have to read and reread your post a bit. It has some fresh perspective to be sure.

I can't invite him out for dinner now. My friend that I'm meeting to go skiing has already left. Screwed that one up. I knew I'd mess up this weekend. Too late.

Maybe some of the advice here does sound like it's more in favour of Dv than marriage building, but that is perhaps b/c I feel a little hopeless about the M.

If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me.

Just a few quick thoughts as I run to eat lunch.

I'll check back later,

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe some of the advice here does sound like it's more in favour of Dv than marriage building, but that is perhaps b/c I feel a little hopeless about the M.

If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me.

Just a few quick thoughts as I run to eat lunch.

I'll check back later,

Jen<hr /></blockquote>Remember your post over at TM94's latest thread in which you wisely said about the danger of assuming things?

Also remember that a lot of us here, yours truly included, have advised you (ad nauseum) about considering going into plan B to protect the remaining love you have for your H and to give him a taste of what life will be without you. I beleive it was Cerri who said one time that recovery is as difficult, if not more so, than ending an A. You need plenty of love in order to have the emotional energy for a succesful marital recovery, otherwise you WILL become the one hellbent on a divorce. I beleive that it was also Cerri who said that plan A was never intended to become a lifestyle (just look at Q's situation). I hope this little rant of mine contributes in helping you think things more clearly.

[ May 02, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Jen-

I'm sorry if my post was a bit strong. I certainly am not in favor of you divorcing. I guess I was trying to get you to think about this situation a little differently.

I keep seeing you make so many attempts, only to get disrespected and hurt, over and over...

I don't want to see you beat yourself up all the time. What I wanted you to see is that your husband IS wounded VERY badly...has been for some time. He will not frogive you until he is ready to heal just like my X.

I want you to succeed so bad that I hurt inside because if you can, then I can. Please, just don't accept abusive behavior from him...you deserve better than that...no matter what your actions WERE.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me. <hr /></blockquote>Jen,Jen,Jen! This is sooo negative and smells of pity. I went to take a shower and had something else I thought to add to my post.I didn't expect a reply from you so fast,but when I returned to make my addition, this statement you made just JUMPED out at me and cements in my mind even firmer what I believe to be true. I feel that after all of this time in your struggle, you are DEPRESSED. I see you focusing on the negative. The glass is always half empty instead of half full. You said yourself you wonder if you focus on your H's negative qualities to make yourself feel better about your A. This mood/mindset is not helpful. It is not conducive to consistent, productive behaviors. It is not conducive to helping ANYONE heal and most importantly it prevents you from seeing things objectively. I URGE you that if you feel in the slightest way that my observation could be right, that you get a doctor to put you on some short term antidepressant therapy. It may take some adjusting to get it right but it will help VOLUMES in helping you see things objectively and in a more positive light.

ok I may get blasted here, but I don't care. Mthrbrd, your post made me want to throw up,. Have you seen and read the many many posts that Jen has written? What do you want her to do, lay down and take his beating over and over? Good grief, yes, she is a WS who slept with his BF, which is totally uncool, but then we have her H who is a heavy drinker who has close women friends that he has done God only knows what with, and he only calls Jen for sleepovers and makes her feel like crap for saying no to anything, and you think she should keep working?!?!!? JEN, go SKIING. Have FUN. Don't WORRY!!! Go to Plan B if you have the strength. Stop worryiing about "Screwing Up' because you didn't ask your sorry H to dinner on his birthday which falls at the same time every year. Quit worrying about what a JERK is doing to you, and forgive yourself and live. Kily had it right on the money earlier. No one here is advocating a divorce for you- I am the BS and my ex-WH is having OC with OW and I still forgive him and love him and I would reconcile with him if he changed his life around. What we are advocating, or at least I am, is that it takes two grownups to make a marriage. Your H is not being a grownup. You have expressed your sorrow and repentance over and over and he has spit on you. And it has been a year!! Is anything any better or is it worse? Plan B is the way I see because otherwise you are going to live in fear and regret and low-self esteem for the rest of your life with this person.
Please Jen, care for yourself a little here.
This is one case where mthrbrd, this woman does not need to wear a scarlet letter anymore than she already has---let it go......

[ May 02, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mthrbrd, your post made me want to throw up,.<hr /></blockquote>Please let's keep this thread from becoming a flame war. If there is disagreement with the advise of others, let's keep it civil otherwise the moderators will step in a close this thread which is intended to help a fellow MB member cope with her sad situation.

No worries CofeeMan! I've been around here going on 4 years now and my 'ol hide's pretty tough. I also have an incredibly beautiful recovered marriage that wouldn't exist if I wasn't able to step out of my own pain and take a good hard objective look at where my H was coming from.

Obviously, adgirl48 didn't read everything I wrote, for I never advised Jen to continue to let herself be emotionally abused by her H. Quite the contrary, I offered advise on how to constructively deal with his bad behaviors. I just don't think Plan B will get her anywhere with her H and I have, for years, been one of the BIGGEST advocates for Plan B that's ever been on this board. Plan B will only drive a deeper chasm between them, physically, emotionally and spiritually. He's reaching out, and for her to slam the door on him now, when he finally seems to be starting to be able to express, in a kind and sincere way, some of the negative feelings he's been carrying around (FOR TOO LONG!) would be destructive to the ultimate goal of both individual's healing and the overall rebuilding of their marriage, which I feel strongly is NOT a lost cause at this point.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
No worries CofeeMan! I've been around here going on 4 years now and my 'ol hide's pretty tough. I also have an incredibly beautiful recovered marriage that wouldn't exist if I wasn't able to step out of my own pain and take a good hard objective look at where my H was coming from.

Obviously, adgirl48 didn't read everything I wrote, for I never advised Jen to continue to let herself be emotionally abused by her H. Quite the contrary, I offered advise on how to constructively deal with his bad behaviors. I just don't think Plan B will get her anywhere with her H and I have, for years, been one of the BIGGEST advocates for Plan B that's ever been on this board. Plan B will only drive a deeper chasm between them, physically, emotionally and spiritually. He's reaching out, and for her to slam the door on him now, when he finally seems to be starting to be able to express, in a kind and sincere way, some of the negative feelings he's been carrying around (FOR TOO LONG!) would be destructive to the ultimate goal of both individual's healing and the overall rebuilding of their marriage, which I feel strongly is NOT a lost cause at this point.<hr /></blockquote>Ok I am sorry for that comment. Thanks for keeping me in line TMCM (and I do mean it).
However I still disagree. Why does Jen have to "deal" with his bad behavior? Because my WH cheated on me, I am allowed to degrade, abuse and only use him for sleepovers ? (ok yeh some men wouldn't mind the last part. haha). I don't think so. Because he drinks too much and yells too much and spends too much time with other women, she should deal with it? That is her punishment? Well I think she has been punished enough - I don't see anything "kind and sincere" in his actions. And yes, I did read everything you said. I just disagree with it. And this marriage will be a lost cause if Jen doesn't get some of her self-respect back, which is all we are concerned about her doing.

Well, my high speed post at lunch was a knee jerk reaction to this morning's posts. Maybe I should've waited to post until I really had a quiet chance to read things and carefully consider them.

I realize now that no one in fact was advocating divorce, but simply to make some changes in how I allow things to continue, in terms of interactions with my H.

mthrrbrd - Maybe I am depressed, who knows. Ask any of my friends and family, usually I'm the one that always sees the positive side of things. But this year, I've become far more cynical, I have to admit. I do NOT want to take drugs to alter my state of mind. I would rather make changes in my life to improve my emotional well-being. I have no problems with others using medication, especially if it makes a positive difference for them, but I'd rather not.

TMCM - Thanks for that remark. Adgirl, I think you meant to say that Mthrrhbrd's post is something you very much disagree with? I'm sure that is what you meant, but you typed too quickly perhaps. I've been there and done that.

I can see the need to go to plan B to protect the little amount of love I have left, but have real difficulty seeing how it will motivate my H, a man who is quite stubborn and full of pride, to come running to me treating me as I'd like to be treated. Maybe it's my guilt again making me think this, but maybe I haven't really got a right to be calling the shots here.

All in all, I just wish my H and I could try spending more time together, during daytime hours and away from a bedroom, so we could a) get to know each other again, and b) work on trying to meet each other's needs, other than just SF.

It's very sad that I am feeling like, you know, it's been 11 months, I don't know how much longer I can wait. I know that when my FIL passed away, it compounded the situation, but I am afraid of having to wait for a lot longer and still finding my H wanting to leave me. I'm afraid of waiting and still being treated poorly.

I know it would seem that my actions are those of someone focussed on self-preservation and not on marital preservation, but I tell you, my IC and most folks here have told me to put me first, and then I can work on my relationships with others.

Right now I wish I wasn't going away this weekend. I wish I could stay home and invite my H to do something. But I had to make my decision quickly, so I made it, it's done, now I may as well go and try to have fun. I just realized I can ask him if he wants to go out for a post b-day dinner next weekend, since I bet this weekend he spent the time with his family.

I don't know what else to say.

Jen

Yes, Jen, that is what I meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I just don't want you to live life sad....please have fun this weekend, and don't regret going.
It isn't too much to ask, to want to be more to your H than just SF. I will be thinking about you this weekend- try to relax ok?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why does Jen have to "deal" with his bad behavior? <hr /></blockquote>Because if she wants to remain married, which I hear her saying she does, she's going to need constructive coping skills. We all have to cope/deal, call it whatever you'd like, with the bad behaviors of our loved ones, especially when they are hurt and depressed, if we want to continue to have them as a part of our life.

Jen has given us, over the months, a laundry list of her H's faults. Again, not being mean, just making an observation. She herself has stated that she wonders if she's doing this to make herself feel better. She's also stated that she wonder's if she twists things in her posts in order to gain sympathy and help her to feel justified. These are her own ponderings. I wonder these things too, because although I don't post much on MBers anymore, I have kept up on all of her posts and do see the big picture. Just maybe she's got some insight into herself and her behavior.I'd hate to see that get in the way of her recovering her marriage.

We only have the priviledge of seeing the interactions Jen describes through her view and through her interpretation, which tends to frequently have a very negative(depressed?) slant. Few question her about this or encourage her to look at the interaction from outside of herself and what appears (to me) to be a depressed viewpoint. For example (and Jen hopefully you can give some feedback on this observation because it was never explored)she stated early on in this thread <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just recalled, he mocked me again last night (on the phone) for sending him an email with my thoughts in it. He implied that I shouldn't expect him to send me a reply b/c his life is too difficult right now as it is and he can't handle that too <hr /></blockquote>I see her feeling sorry for herself that he can't bring himself to reply at this time. I myself wondered what did he do to make her feel he was "mocking" her, and was this impression she got, of what he "implied", due to the depression she seems to be experiencing. If you look closely at the same quote she states but doesn't seem to internalize that H is communicating to her that he feels pressured to respond to her email. She takes that personally instead of leaving it objectively for what it is, HIS FEELING.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />- I don't see anything "kind and sincere" in his actions <hr /></blockquote>I didn't say he was "kind and sincere" Jen did. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> He approached me in a kind and sincere manner, <hr /></blockquote>Jen's self respect is intact. Let's give her some credit. Afterall, she knows better than anyone else when she needs to walk away or go to Plan B. I just don't hear her saying that. I see her struggling and reaching out for ideas that might offer a different perspective from the one she finds herself experiencing.

Disagree all you like. Jen will take what she finds helpful and leave the rest.

Jen,

Have you ever tried meds? The newer SSRI's do not "alter your state of mind". They correct the imbalance of chemical neurotransmitters that cause depression, caused by prolonged stress. There is a biological cause for depression and when lifestyle and alternate means of improving mood do not prove effective it's because medication is needed to restore that balance. Just offering something for you to consider, from the RN part of me.

Remember too that you're a woman and that gives you the perogative to change your mind if you're not feeling content with the decision you made to go away for the weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ May 02, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]

[ May 02, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just don't want you to live life sad....please have fun this weekend, and don't regret going.
It isn't too much to ask, to want to be more to your H than just SF. I will be thinking about you this weekend- try to relax ok? <hr /></blockquote>Right now, I do regret it. I just do. But I've made a comittment to my girlfriend now (she's already on the road), and that's done, so I'm going to suck it up and try to relax and have a good time.

I agree, it certainly isn't too much to ask for more than just sex. That is one opinion I won't change, no matter who posts what. It's just how to I go about getting more than that. That's the tricky part. Plan B? Make ultimatums? Just keep having secret sex meetings and hope it leads to more? Who knows, I sure don't right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Afterall, she knows better than anyone else when she needs to walk away or go to Plan B. I just don't hear her saying that. I see her struggling and reaching out for ideas that might offer a different perspective from the one she finds herself experiencing.

Disagree all you like. Jen will take what she finds helpful and leave the rest. <hr /></blockquote>Indeed. I am not saying I agree wholeheartedly with you mthrrhbrd (I am sure I spell your name differently every time, sorry), but I do appreciate a fresh perspective to consider.

I will take what's helpful and leave the rest, as usual.

Jen

[ May 02, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]

QUOTE FROM mthrrhbard:
"Because if she wants to remain married, which I hear her saying she does, she's going to need constructive coping skills. We all have to cope/deal, call it whatever you'd like, with the bad behaviors of our loved ones, especially when they are hurt and depressed, if we want to continue to have them as a part of our life."

Yes we all have to deal with partner's mistakes and problems- but we don't have to be abused and humiliated and degraded. Yes, we only have jen's side, but I would say that someone who admits to sleeping with her H's best friend is someone who admits their mistakes. Of course Jen can take and leave what she wants to, and what she disagrees and agrees with. That goes without saying

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
Jen,

Remember too that you're a woman and that gives you the perogative to change your mind if you're not feeling content with the decision you made to go away for the weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I am a woman, but just wondered- are they the only ones allowed to change their minds? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen,

Enjoy yourself if you feel you must go AND relax. Give yourself a mental break. You do not have to SETTLE for "secret sex". Just try to take a deeper look at what it may be that H feels he has lost and how it may effect his ability to give and how he interacts with you at this point. Why not call him before you leave, wish him a happy birthday and let him know you'll be thinking of him.

adgirl48- No we're not the only ones allowed to change our minds, we just have more perogative that's all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope you all don't mind if I just talk a little bit about some things. Especially Jen since it's her thread.

( Hi TMCMan, hope you are doing well personally, I see you around, but haven't talked to you for a while.)Ahh, sorry, just had to do that.

I came to this site in January of 2002 and started reading posts. I kept up on current threads right along, not all of them, that would be more than a full time job for me, but many. I sometimes spent all day ( when I was off work) reading back threads and I have read some thousands by now going back to the early days of the forum. Many that come here get counseling from Steve Harley, or Jennifer Harley Chalmers, his sister. They are the children of Dr Willard F. Harley Jr. who put together the books, the plans, and this web site.

My W and I did not counsel with the Harleys, we didn't have an A to worry about, and we have been able to strengthen our marriage and we are doing quite well, but I have read the stories of many that have used them, and I would like to talk about some things I have seen and that I think would help in this case.

We talk a lot about plan A.
DR Harley says it is a process "used to separate the WS from the OP." It is not recommend that it be used more than 3 months for women, and mot more than 6 months by men. Sometimes we take that as the final word. In the case of Qfwfq, who had been on plan A for about 8 months (correct me if I got the months wrong Q) it was recommend that he was just getting started and that he continue with a really good plan A for some time longer. I have seen others that called and were told that they needed to do plan A for longer still, because theirs was not a really good one, and also they had no boundaries in place during the plan. The biggest reason for starting plan A over are to many LB's early on in the plan. Plan A is not supposed to enable the WS, there are still boundaries, it is supposed to meet needs.

If plan A doesn't work, or if the BS's love bank gets low, it's time for plan B. Usually, and even almost always.

Now, here's the kicker, and why I recommended Jen call for counseling. We learn a lot from reading here, and many of us have read HNHN and other books, but we don't have the benefit of years of study that Dr Harley has. Notice that it's DR Harley. Think about that for a minute. He not only took the years of school, he was sharp enough to compile all the info from his own practice, formulate the plans, and write the books. When Jen and Steve talk to you, then have access to him, and they have the schooling and background to know more than just how to counsel, but much more about human behavior. They take into account that both are WS's, they take into account that Jens H's father died. They have the background and training to look at these things and make a good solid plan that takes them into account.

Now, they are human, and they don't know everything, but consider the training and background that they have that we do not have.

I have followed Jen's thread, and I worry. The signs that we see, say it's time for plan B, but remember what Steve told Q, and it surprised many here but it was right for the stage he was at last summer, and I think he is glad he called and that he stayed in A at that time. ( I think that because I have seen him say it.)

Jen's H is abusive. Signs are that he is also a WS, at least an EA and perhaps PA. On this site we really only see BS's that want to save things. We don't see the thousands that become abusive, rant and rave, file for D and never look back. There are a few that come here that do that for a time and then realize they are still in love and want to save it, but we don't ever see most of them. That would be people that act kind of like Jen's H has been acting.

Now there are a few signs that he may sometimes peek out of the fog. Jen can see things we can't see, hear things we can't hear. She gets the tone of voice stuff, and body language and she thinks sometimes he may be softening up and coming around. She was ready for B once, even had the letter written but couldn't do it yet, because she thought she might be seeing a difference in him.

I believe mthrrhbard made some very accurate observations. One of the reasons I think so is that Jen has mentioned most of them herself over the last few months as being things she is concerned about. I think it is those very things that has kept her from plan B.

Now, after all this background, I'll get to the point. I feel Jen's story is more complicated than most, and I wish she would call for coaching. I believe her marriage is one that can be saved, but I fear it is more sensitive than most and may be lost easily if she makes the wrong moves.

I think we do well to make observations and give ideas, but ought to be careful about what we recommend. Some cases are pretty plain, but I really have a hard time with this one myself. I think boundaries need to be in place, and I worry about what Jen can handle emotionally. I know that many of you fear for her pain and loss of love and that 's why you recommend plan B, but I worry that we may loose him.

TMCM's quote on May 2nd at 9:44 AM is my vote for the best short term plan. Some kind of statement like that makes a lot of sense, and I don't see how it can drive him further away if she modified it some and made it fit their case. For the long term plan, I vote she call in and get some professional help before she does anything major.

SS

Later Edit,
BTW Jen, I'm a guy and I tend to just give answers and not listen, but I care about how you feel, and you are are in my prayers.
( and the rest of you too.)

[ May 02, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> adgirl48
Member
Member # 26615

posted May 02, 2003 09:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with committed. He has proved to you how he will react, time and time again. <hr /></blockquote>Clarifying my postion..

adgirl,

The reason I told her to extend an invitation for a "public" celebration was because Jen tends to second guess her decisions. If she doesn't she is going to think that she should have...later. She is constantly on the edge ..trying to predict his actions and I think that she needs to remove all the doubt from her mind of what would have happened ...had she done this...and he said this.
She beats herself up all the time..even the title of the thread is reflective on that. IF it was the right thing...she doesn't know what is the "right" thing to do in any given situation so she needs to try and make the simple things simple to act on. The simple act of asking would have removed all doubt.

She will be here Monday...posting that MAYBE she should have asked him afterall...because he was so depressed that she wasn't around. She needs to remove the doubt that she can.

Please note that I did tell her that IF he answers with wanting a "secret" meeting that she needed to go on her trip. He doesn't need anything else to call and blast her about. He can't if she asked and he declined. Seemed simple enough to me.

committed ( and clarified)

Committed,
Thanks for clarifying (seriously) - I understand you better now. I guess my fear was the same thing yours was, but in a different light. I thought if she DID call him and he was rude, she wouldn't want to go this weekend and then she would second guess having called him. Or he would just interrogate her about what she was doing and where she was going, and then she would feel guilty again. I think the point is, that we are ALL making here, is that Jen has a lot of guilt. hahaha Jen how do you like us all analyzing you? You sure do have a lot of people who care. Still Standing is right too though- maybe you should seek a professional who knows more than we all do-
And mthrbrd suggested Jen call him before she leaves. I am truly not trying to disagree with you over and over, and pick fights, I just think since she decided to go for the weekend, she should go and enjoy and I am afraid if she calls him she will get worried again. But JMHO!!! Jen, keep your boundaries here too- I know we all have put in a lot of advice, but ultimately all of this is your decision. PRAY about it. God knows what He wants for you and Your life. None of us really knows that future but He does.....

Yep! Complicated and delicate describes Jen's situation. Ask a HARLEY. That's the best advise anyone could give. Good job SS!

FYI - I'm off. I suppose you folks might debate what I should do in my absence by the sounds of things. I'll be home Sunday night.

No, I'm not calling him before I go. I 'm not opening myself up to that. I am going to check my messages while I'm away though.

Have a good weekend everyone,

Jen

Wow, I'm almost shocked you all stopped posting in my absence, lol!

I had a great weekend (epic amounts of fresh powder to ski in!), my H NEVER EVER called my apt. or my cell phone, and I am so glad I didn't let his uncanny ability to manipulate me and make me feel eternally guilty cause me to sit at home this weekend.

I went to the library before the weekend, and got a couple of books on tape that I listened to while driving, and came across a VERY interesting one. It's called "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward. Holy cow, does it ever describe the way my H has made me feel guilty and like I'm always wrong and how he is always the wise one and the right one, etc. I'm just getting to the part about how to end the cycle, and to stop giving in to the Emotional Blackmailer's demands and threats. One thing I think I really respect about this woman's perspective on things is the fact that an Emotional Blackmailer doesn't do it consciously or just to cause emotional pain. They do it because they are really just very frightened of being deprived of what they want and not being in complete control of their life.

If anyone is going to accuse me of focusing on my H too much again, just please stuff a sock in it. This book/tape actually helps people to stop being sucked in by the emotional blackmail of people in all aspects of our lives, relatives, employers, etc. I think it may even be useful to me in my interactions with my family! I mention it b/c perhaps others have read it, or it may be of interest to others.

Well, time to unpack!

Jen

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
Wow, I'm almost shocked you all stopped posting in my absence, lol!

If anyone is going to accuse me of focusing on my H too much again, just please stuff a sock in it. This book/tape actually helps people to stop being sucked in by the emotional blackmail of people in all aspects of our lives, relatives, employers, etc. I think it may even be useful to me in my interactions with my family! I mention it b/c perhaps others have read it, or it may be of interest to others.

Well, time to unpack!

Jen

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>#1, I can't speak for others, but I was too embarrassed to talk about you while you were gone, after you called us on it!! LOL!
And as for the 2nd part, I don't need any sock stuffing, because I was going to say GOOD FOR YOU for focusing on you this weekend. I am so glad you got to relax, that is terrific!!! And listening to tapes about emotional blackmail is to help you heal, so I don't think you are focusing on him by doing that.
YAY!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If anyone is going to accuse me of focusing on my H too much again, just please stuff a sock in it.

I wasn't going to, but since you brought it up.............Just kidding.

It's your life, you should listen, be thankful people care, and do what you need to do.

All my socks are dirty, so I had better watch what I say right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

adgirl and stillseeking,

Thanks for the encouragement and good humour! I am VERY thankful that people care.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen

We do care very much, and that's why we hate to see you going round and round in circles. In the UK we had a kids TV programme called "The Magic Roundabout". There was one character called "Dill the Dog", and this dog used to go round and round in circles chasing it's tail singing "I'm Dill the Dog, I'm a dog called Dill". Well, OK, I digress, but I think you know what I mean don't you. Read the bit about breaking the cycle!!!!

I am so glad you concentrated on you and had a great weekend. All that worry, and well, best you did what you did, and best I go and put some washing on, because I was cycling yesterday and my socks are well, yucky to say the least!!!!

Take care Jen.

Lisa

[ May 05, 2003, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]

Who is it that has that signature line that says something like, "what do you do when the one who has hurt you is the only one who can stop your tears"?

Or what were the actual words?

Tonight's just another lonely night, where I'm just so sad for what could've been and should've been, and I really miss being able to just walk into the next room and find my H and ask him for a big hug.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hang in there Jen its always "darkest before the dawn"

Hmmm what a corny saying hell its off to work once its dawn! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyhow try and find some peace in all this mess life is too short.

I know how you feel, I miss my back rubs.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Okay now you have me all sad and weepy too!

Enough of the pitty party.

Cyber hugs right click!

Cyber back rubs left click! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh adgirl, I wish I could give you a back rub, but I know it wouldn't be the same.

There's almost nothing that made everything with the world seem so right, so safe, and so full of hope as when my H and I would spoon and hold each other all night long. And we did that most nights. Now I only get to cuddle with the stuffed rabbit my H gave me years ago.

He still has a stuffed rabbit I gave him years ago, and it's always in the bed when I go over there. I always think maybe it's not completely hopeless when I see Mr. Rabbit in our bed.

I hope you're right s-d, that it's darkest before the dawn. And I don't want to go to work in the morning either! It actually crossed my mind to play sick this morning. Oh well.

Hugs to all,

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Jen just curious have you shared this sight with your husband?

I mean to me its very moving the pain you are going thru. I can relate it very much to the pain my wife is going thru and it helps me deal with the fact I am the betrayed spouse.

By that I know I am not alone in hurting over what happened and that besides being sorry for the affair my wife is hurting like me too.

I think it would be useful for your husband to see how you feel....of course you might want to go back and edit some of your posts when you were hacked off.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I've let him know how much I'm hurting on many occasions. Sometimes he just listens in silence, other times he gets mad b/c he has so much more to deal with, that it's like I'm selfish for wanting attention and comforting ("I got myself into this"). Other times he just says callously, "what , are you crying again?" Then I read things like the list of divorcebusting tips, and it says to act indifferently and like I'm strong and ready to move on, and I feel like I ought to hide my pain, b/c it's unattractive to be desperate, and in my H's case it's just showing him I'm vulnerable so he can manipulate me, etc.

There, how's that for a run-on sentence?

Jen

Ugh can't believe he doesn't respond to seeing your pain....even though you brought it on yourself to some extent.

As mad as I was (and sometimes am when I hit a trigger) I never enjoyed seeing my wife in pain at least not pain deliberately caused by me.

I did find comfort in knowing it hurt to see me so tormented and in such pain. But that was because it told me she was thinking about me not just herself.

Jen I just don't know what to say. I have been following your story with great interest because it has helped me learn how to empathize with my wife's pain despite her guilt.

I hope your husband has not hit the point where the only thing he wants you for is to dump on.

I hope so too. I'm glad that at least my situation has helped you feel more empathy for your W.

I know he's hurting a lot this week, what with his b-day Friday, and Sat. being the "anniversary" of the first time I slept with OM. He's reliving it all I assume, so I'm keeping my distance. I hope that's what he really needs.

JB

Jen,
You said you sleep with the stuffed rabbit but I just can't sleep with the stuffed dog that my Ex-Wh gave me. It just makes me too sad. But last time I went to my house- which was oh, about a month or so ago- he still had my wedding veil in his closet, our Biltmore Place tickets on his nightstand, and a letter I wrote him on his filing cabinet....that made me think, oh well, he hasn't completely forgotten me....and there were 2 pics on the fridge, he had the one of my whole family at Christmas 2001, with him kissing me, behind the one of my 2 nieces and nephew. ......I guess I felt better knowing he didn't just completely make all of "me" disappear. But yeh, I miss getting into our cuddly position at night- I always slept good that way.......
OK ENOUGH!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I can't get sad anymore!!Night night....go to work, be strong, you will feel better once you actually get moving.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by stunned-dad:
Okay now you have me all sad and weepy too!

Enough of the pitty party.

Cyber hugs right click!

Cyber back rubs left click! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thanks Stunned_dad!!!

Indeed time for bed. Morning will come soon enough, and the routine of life will get me out of this pity party. Hugs to all and good night!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Jen-

I've sort of been hiding from your thread lately bcause I feel like I hurt you with my big mouth.

I just wanted to thamk you for the post about H's B-day and what to do. Today I'm in that sitch.

It's hard because I want to acknowledge him but I insisted on NC.

I'm glad that you listened to those tapes. It seemed to help you get stronger...

Hello again Kily, no need to hide! Indeed, if you're in plan B and have insisted on NC, I guess you have to suck it up and not contact him. It doesn't mean you're not a kind person, it means that you are wise enough and have enough self-respect to have set your boundaries. Hang in there!

Those tapes did help me realize that I'm not a fool, I'm just someone who fell into a pattern where my H used my emotions and my desire to be considered a kind person to his advantage.

However, as you may have noticed from last night's post, they may have made me feel a bit stronger, but I also still get sad.

I heard from a friend/colleague today that there are financial advantages to being the one to actually file for Dv. My friend got divorced about 3 years ago, and because she filed first she got 50% of her H's pension among other things she apparently wouldn't have gotten if she'd waited for him to file.

I worry so much about not wanting that on my conscience for the rest of my life (being the one to file for Dv), and wanting to be the martyr, it's rediculous. I should look out for myself and not be so worried about what my H will think of me after we divorce (if we do).

So I think I need to go see a lawyer again asap.

Anyone here from Canada, maybe even Alberta, who knows anything about the advantages of filing for Dv before your spouse?

I'll check over on D/D board too.

Jen

[ May 06, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]

Hey 2Long.

What? I'm on the wrong thread? Isn't this plan A anonymous?

Dang, I'm ready for the ol' folks home.

TMCM - I thought you were already in the old folks home! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The alzheimers isn't setting in is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL. Glad you could stop by! Say hi to 2long for me.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"The alzheimers isn't setting in is it?" <hr /></blockquote>Who are you sweetie? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm ROTFLMAO! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hey Jen, you know what's great about having Altzheimers?

You get to sleep with a different woman every night. WOO HOO!(Sorry, it must be the dirty old man in me) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ May 06, 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Coffeeguy-
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sorry, it must be the dirty old man in me <hr /></blockquote>I want to touch that one so badly...but the moderators would KICK me.

I think you've had ONE 2 many 2ble espressos.

TMCM goes to his doctor and says "Doc? I've been having trouble remembering things lately." And the doctor replies "How long has this been going on?" and TMCM replies "How long has WHAT been going on?"

The thing I miss most about getting old is my mind (I can't remember which MBer I ripped that off. Must have been JL, he's the oldest guy I know!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"I think you've had ONE 2 many 2ble espressos."<hr /></blockquote>Darlin' 2ble expressos no longer have any effect on me, but if your talkin' 3le expressos, then my doggy ears go up (3les are cheaper than viagra too you know). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Since I hijacked this thread from Jen, maybe I should change my name to Al Quaeda. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ May 06, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]