Jen -
Two more things...

To answer the QUESTION posed in your post:

You FEEL so bad because it wasn't the RIGHT thing. You betrayed your inner voice, put yourself in a degrading situation, scarificed your integrity, all because you wanted to be loved.

I aborted a CHILD for the same reasons Jen. We all do these types of things because we don't know any different. That's why we post, learn, question, and grow...

The other thing...if you don't REALLY trust what I'm saying about your H, review his actions as of late...His late night drunken calls, his attempts at making you feel guilty....are these actions from someone who has his life together? They remind me of actions from someone that is desperate and lost. Someone that needs to be taken care of. Kind of like a child that is looking for attention from it's mother and isn't getting it.

Food for thought...

I think that if you really love your H and REALLY want to give your all to reconstruct your marriage, you should listen to the sage advise of ARK^^ and Committed. Keepmvn4wrd gave you some great ideas on how to change the poor communication pattern you and H are stuck in. Individual counseling can help you to learn how to further CHANGE those non productive patterns for good and help you role play how to move out of non productive communication with your H when important issues need to be addressed. The other advise you've been getting might help YOU, (be divorced) but it won't help save your marriage. It reflects advice reserved for the betrayed not the wayward, IMHO. You made reference in your first post to MB voice that tells you to "keep him guessing, make him come to you, not pursue him". That's advise for the BS that has a fence sitting WS. It's not going to work in your situation. You are the one that had the affair, no matter how many faults he has, nothing changes that fact. Your job as the WS is to HELP him heal, in the way he is comfortable with, not your own.

Your H is DEVESTATED. He's also sufferred another HUGE loss in his life, one that throws LOTS of men into MLC. If you want to save your marriage and your H is overall a good man you must stop expecting him to heal on your time table. It's been just a year, plus he's lost his dad. Does this excuse his behavior, of course not. But please step back and look objectively. He keeps reaching out to you in the only way he knows how. He's given you some HUGE insight into him feeling inferior and rejected.You said yourself that he approached you in a KIND and SINCERE manner. When you called him back to ask if you could come over and he sounded "commanding and controlling" and you felt turned off, looking from the outside in, I see a man wanting not to control YOU so much but to have some control over what he lost (his manhood,his feelings of virility) when you slept with his best friend. You interpret it from your view, of how you want sex with your husband to be now, FOR YOU, and get turned off. Step back a little and look deeply into where he's at. Maybe he has very poor skills on how to get his real feelings across, but I see him trying, in maybe the only way he feels comfortable, getting back to where he feels comfortable and trying to gain back what he lost, when all of this happened.

Don't assume he'll reject an invitation for his birthday. You know what happens when we [censored] U Me!
Give him the benefit of the doubt, you'd want him to do the same for you. Treat him as you'd want him to treat you. Would you want him to ask you out for your birthday? Then ask him. You will feel better knowing you gave your all. Then if he declines go have some fun on your own.

Why don't you just see what will happen Jen, if you start saying "yes" to him instead of "no", work hard not to be defensive, and accept his feelings for what they are, just his feelings. Remember feelings change! Have you considered that maybe he needs you to validate his feelings, no matter how ugly they are,before he can let go of them and start to feel better enough to want to make some bigger steps forward. He's making baby steps and has been, but I see you always wanting more than he can give and making demands.

I'm not trying to be mean. I know you're sad and lonely and beaten down from the stress of how long this negativeness and crisis has gone on. But what you have been doing isn't working. He's out and out told you it isn't working. He wants you to want him. Call him, show him and if he starts in with the put downs and emotional abuse calmly say you find it hurtful,remove yourself from the situation, calmly and quietly, and leave him to reflect on his own bad behavior for a bit. Do not give him a single thing he can use to distract himself from his own behavior.What do you have to lose at this point Jen? You ARE a strong woman. You have grown tremendously from your mistake. Go out on a limb and give a little more. Have a positive expectation of him. Refuse to have negative expectations. Remember, he's lost more than you have at this point. Do your best to help give some of that back to him and see what happens. All the best to you and a hug too!

TMCM - I recognize that article/story.

mthrhbrd - I will have to read and reread your post a bit. It has some fresh perspective to be sure.

I can't invite him out for dinner now. My friend that I'm meeting to go skiing has already left. Screwed that one up. I knew I'd mess up this weekend. Too late.

Maybe some of the advice here does sound like it's more in favour of Dv than marriage building, but that is perhaps b/c I feel a little hopeless about the M.

If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me.

Just a few quick thoughts as I run to eat lunch.

I'll check back later,

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe some of the advice here does sound like it's more in favour of Dv than marriage building, but that is perhaps b/c I feel a little hopeless about the M.

If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me.

Just a few quick thoughts as I run to eat lunch.

I'll check back later,

Jen</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember your post over at TM94's latest thread in which you wisely said about the danger of assuming things?

Also remember that a lot of us here, yours truly included, have advised you (ad nauseum) about considering going into plan B to protect the remaining love you have for your H and to give him a taste of what life will be without you. I beleive it was Cerri who said one time that recovery is as difficult, if not more so, than ending an A. You need plenty of love in order to have the emotional energy for a succesful marital recovery, otherwise you WILL become the one hellbent on a divorce. I beleive that it was also Cerri who said that plan A was never intended to become a lifestyle (just look at Q's situation). I hope this little rant of mine contributes in helping you think things more clearly.

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Jen-

I'm sorry if my post was a bit strong. I certainly am not in favor of you divorcing. I guess I was trying to get you to think about this situation a little differently.

I keep seeing you make so many attempts, only to get disrespected and hurt, over and over...

I don't want to see you beat yourself up all the time. What I wanted you to see is that your husband IS wounded VERY badly...has been for some time. He will not frogive you until he is ready to heal just like my X.

I want you to succeed so bad that I hurt inside because if you can, then I can. Please, just don't accept abusive behavior from him...you deserve better than that...no matter what your actions WERE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it takes my H more than a year to make any changes in himself, I may not have the patience it takes to love him as he needs me to. Maybe he should marry one of his female friends if they're so good at loving him better than me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,Jen,Jen! This is sooo negative and smells of pity. I went to take a shower and had something else I thought to add to my post.I didn't expect a reply from you so fast,but when I returned to make my addition, this statement you made just JUMPED out at me and cements in my mind even firmer what I believe to be true. I feel that after all of this time in your struggle, you are DEPRESSED. I see you focusing on the negative. The glass is always half empty instead of half full. You said yourself you wonder if you focus on your H's negative qualities to make yourself feel better about your A. This mood/mindset is not helpful. It is not conducive to consistent, productive behaviors. It is not conducive to helping ANYONE heal and most importantly it prevents you from seeing things objectively. I URGE you that if you feel in the slightest way that my observation could be right, that you get a doctor to put you on some short term antidepressant therapy. It may take some adjusting to get it right but it will help VOLUMES in helping you see things objectively and in a more positive light.

ok I may get blasted here, but I don't care. Mthrbrd, your post made me want to throw up,. Have you seen and read the many many posts that Jen has written? What do you want her to do, lay down and take his beating over and over? Good grief, yes, she is a WS who slept with his BF, which is totally uncool, but then we have her H who is a heavy drinker who has close women friends that he has done God only knows what with, and he only calls Jen for sleepovers and makes her feel like crap for saying no to anything, and you think she should keep working?!?!!? JEN, go SKIING. Have FUN. Don't WORRY!!! Go to Plan B if you have the strength. Stop worryiing about "Screwing Up' because you didn't ask your sorry H to dinner on his birthday which falls at the same time every year. Quit worrying about what a JERK is doing to you, and forgive yourself and live. Kily had it right on the money earlier. No one here is advocating a divorce for you- I am the BS and my ex-WH is having OC with OW and I still forgive him and love him and I would reconcile with him if he changed his life around. What we are advocating, or at least I am, is that it takes two grownups to make a marriage. Your H is not being a grownup. You have expressed your sorrow and repentance over and over and he has spit on you. And it has been a year!! Is anything any better or is it worse? Plan B is the way I see because otherwise you are going to live in fear and regret and low-self esteem for the rest of your life with this person.
Please Jen, care for yourself a little here.
This is one case where mthrbrd, this woman does not need to wear a scarlet letter anymore than she already has---let it go......

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mthrbrd, your post made me want to throw up,.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please let's keep this thread from becoming a flame war. If there is disagreement with the advise of others, let's keep it civil otherwise the moderators will step in a close this thread which is intended to help a fellow MB member cope with her sad situation.

No worries CofeeMan! I've been around here going on 4 years now and my 'ol hide's pretty tough. I also have an incredibly beautiful recovered marriage that wouldn't exist if I wasn't able to step out of my own pain and take a good hard objective look at where my H was coming from.

Obviously, adgirl48 didn't read everything I wrote, for I never advised Jen to continue to let herself be emotionally abused by her H. Quite the contrary, I offered advise on how to constructively deal with his bad behaviors. I just don't think Plan B will get her anywhere with her H and I have, for years, been one of the BIGGEST advocates for Plan B that's ever been on this board. Plan B will only drive a deeper chasm between them, physically, emotionally and spiritually. He's reaching out, and for her to slam the door on him now, when he finally seems to be starting to be able to express, in a kind and sincere way, some of the negative feelings he's been carrying around (FOR TOO LONG!) would be destructive to the ultimate goal of both individual's healing and the overall rebuilding of their marriage, which I feel strongly is NOT a lost cause at this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>No worries CofeeMan! I've been around here going on 4 years now and my 'ol hide's pretty tough. I also have an incredibly beautiful recovered marriage that wouldn't exist if I wasn't able to step out of my own pain and take a good hard objective look at where my H was coming from.

Obviously, adgirl48 didn't read everything I wrote, for I never advised Jen to continue to let herself be emotionally abused by her H. Quite the contrary, I offered advise on how to constructively deal with his bad behaviors. I just don't think Plan B will get her anywhere with her H and I have, for years, been one of the BIGGEST advocates for Plan B that's ever been on this board. Plan B will only drive a deeper chasm between them, physically, emotionally and spiritually. He's reaching out, and for her to slam the door on him now, when he finally seems to be starting to be able to express, in a kind and sincere way, some of the negative feelings he's been carrying around (FOR TOO LONG!) would be destructive to the ultimate goal of both individual's healing and the overall rebuilding of their marriage, which I feel strongly is NOT a lost cause at this point.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok I am sorry for that comment. Thanks for keeping me in line TMCM (and I do mean it).
However I still disagree. Why does Jen have to "deal" with his bad behavior? Because my WH cheated on me, I am allowed to degrade, abuse and only use him for sleepovers ? (ok yeh some men wouldn't mind the last part. haha). I don't think so. Because he drinks too much and yells too much and spends too much time with other women, she should deal with it? That is her punishment? Well I think she has been punished enough - I don't see anything "kind and sincere" in his actions. And yes, I did read everything you said. I just disagree with it. And this marriage will be a lost cause if Jen doesn't get some of her self-respect back, which is all we are concerned about her doing.

Well, my high speed post at lunch was a knee jerk reaction to this morning's posts. Maybe I should've waited to post until I really had a quiet chance to read things and carefully consider them.

I realize now that no one in fact was advocating divorce, but simply to make some changes in how I allow things to continue, in terms of interactions with my H.

mthrrbrd - Maybe I am depressed, who knows. Ask any of my friends and family, usually I'm the one that always sees the positive side of things. But this year, I've become far more cynical, I have to admit. I do NOT want to take drugs to alter my state of mind. I would rather make changes in my life to improve my emotional well-being. I have no problems with others using medication, especially if it makes a positive difference for them, but I'd rather not.

TMCM - Thanks for that remark. Adgirl, I think you meant to say that Mthrrhbrd's post is something you very much disagree with? I'm sure that is what you meant, but you typed too quickly perhaps. I've been there and done that.

I can see the need to go to plan B to protect the little amount of love I have left, but have real difficulty seeing how it will motivate my H, a man who is quite stubborn and full of pride, to come running to me treating me as I'd like to be treated. Maybe it's my guilt again making me think this, but maybe I haven't really got a right to be calling the shots here.

All in all, I just wish my H and I could try spending more time together, during daytime hours and away from a bedroom, so we could a) get to know each other again, and b) work on trying to meet each other's needs, other than just SF.

It's very sad that I am feeling like, you know, it's been 11 months, I don't know how much longer I can wait. I know that when my FIL passed away, it compounded the situation, but I am afraid of having to wait for a lot longer and still finding my H wanting to leave me. I'm afraid of waiting and still being treated poorly.

I know it would seem that my actions are those of someone focussed on self-preservation and not on marital preservation, but I tell you, my IC and most folks here have told me to put me first, and then I can work on my relationships with others.

Right now I wish I wasn't going away this weekend. I wish I could stay home and invite my H to do something. But I had to make my decision quickly, so I made it, it's done, now I may as well go and try to have fun. I just realized I can ask him if he wants to go out for a post b-day dinner next weekend, since I bet this weekend he spent the time with his family.

I don't know what else to say.

Jen

Yes, Jen, that is what I meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I just don't want you to live life sad....please have fun this weekend, and don't regret going.
It isn't too much to ask, to want to be more to your H than just SF. I will be thinking about you this weekend- try to relax ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why does Jen have to "deal" with his bad behavior? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because if she wants to remain married, which I hear her saying she does, she's going to need constructive coping skills. We all have to cope/deal, call it whatever you'd like, with the bad behaviors of our loved ones, especially when they are hurt and depressed, if we want to continue to have them as a part of our life.

Jen has given us, over the months, a laundry list of her H's faults. Again, not being mean, just making an observation. She herself has stated that she wonders if she's doing this to make herself feel better. She's also stated that she wonder's if she twists things in her posts in order to gain sympathy and help her to feel justified. These are her own ponderings. I wonder these things too, because although I don't post much on MBers anymore, I have kept up on all of her posts and do see the big picture. Just maybe she's got some insight into herself and her behavior.I'd hate to see that get in the way of her recovering her marriage.

We only have the priviledge of seeing the interactions Jen describes through her view and through her interpretation, which tends to frequently have a very negative(depressed?) slant. Few question her about this or encourage her to look at the interaction from outside of herself and what appears (to me) to be a depressed viewpoint. For example (and Jen hopefully you can give some feedback on this observation because it was never explored)she stated early on in this thread </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just recalled, he mocked me again last night (on the phone) for sending him an email with my thoughts in it. He implied that I shouldn't expect him to send me a reply b/c his life is too difficult right now as it is and he can't handle that too </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see her feeling sorry for herself that he can't bring himself to reply at this time. I myself wondered what did he do to make her feel he was "mocking" her, and was this impression she got, of what he "implied", due to the depression she seems to be experiencing. If you look closely at the same quote she states but doesn't seem to internalize that H is communicating to her that he feels pressured to respond to her email. She takes that personally instead of leaving it objectively for what it is, HIS FEELING.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">- I don't see anything "kind and sincere" in his actions </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't say he was "kind and sincere" Jen did. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He approached me in a kind and sincere manner, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen's self respect is intact. Let's give her some credit. Afterall, she knows better than anyone else when she needs to walk away or go to Plan B. I just don't hear her saying that. I see her struggling and reaching out for ideas that might offer a different perspective from the one she finds herself experiencing.

Disagree all you like. Jen will take what she finds helpful and leave the rest.

Jen,

Have you ever tried meds? The newer SSRI's do not "alter your state of mind". They correct the imbalance of chemical neurotransmitters that cause depression, caused by prolonged stress. There is a biological cause for depression and when lifestyle and alternate means of improving mood do not prove effective it's because medication is needed to restore that balance. Just offering something for you to consider, from the RN part of me.

Remember too that you're a woman and that gives you the perogative to change your mind if you're not feeling content with the decision you made to go away for the weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't want you to live life sad....please have fun this weekend, and don't regret going.
It isn't too much to ask, to want to be more to your H than just SF. I will be thinking about you this weekend- try to relax ok? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now, I do regret it. I just do. But I've made a comittment to my girlfriend now (she's already on the road), and that's done, so I'm going to suck it up and try to relax and have a good time.

I agree, it certainly isn't too much to ask for more than just sex. That is one opinion I won't change, no matter who posts what. It's just how to I go about getting more than that. That's the tricky part. Plan B? Make ultimatums? Just keep having secret sex meetings and hope it leads to more? Who knows, I sure don't right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Afterall, she knows better than anyone else when she needs to walk away or go to Plan B. I just don't hear her saying that. I see her struggling and reaching out for ideas that might offer a different perspective from the one she finds herself experiencing.

Disagree all you like. Jen will take what she finds helpful and leave the rest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. I am not saying I agree wholeheartedly with you mthrrhbrd (I am sure I spell your name differently every time, sorry), but I do appreciate a fresh perspective to consider.

I will take what's helpful and leave the rest, as usual.

Jen

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

QUOTE FROM mthrrhbard:
"Because if she wants to remain married, which I hear her saying she does, she's going to need constructive coping skills. We all have to cope/deal, call it whatever you'd like, with the bad behaviors of our loved ones, especially when they are hurt and depressed, if we want to continue to have them as a part of our life."

Yes we all have to deal with partner's mistakes and problems- but we don't have to be abused and humiliated and degraded. Yes, we only have jen's side, but I would say that someone who admits to sleeping with her H's best friend is someone who admits their mistakes. Of course Jen can take and leave what she wants to, and what she disagrees and agrees with. That goes without saying

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>Jen,

Remember too that you're a woman and that gives you the perogative to change your mind if you're not feeling content with the decision you made to go away for the weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a woman, but just wondered- are they the only ones allowed to change their minds? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen,

Enjoy yourself if you feel you must go AND relax. Give yourself a mental break. You do not have to SETTLE for "secret sex". Just try to take a deeper look at what it may be that H feels he has lost and how it may effect his ability to give and how he interacts with you at this point. Why not call him before you leave, wish him a happy birthday and let him know you'll be thinking of him.

adgirl48- No we're not the only ones allowed to change our minds, we just have more perogative that's all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope you all don't mind if I just talk a little bit about some things. Especially Jen since it's her thread.

( Hi TMCMan, hope you are doing well personally, I see you around, but haven't talked to you for a while.)Ahh, sorry, just had to do that.

I came to this site in January of 2002 and started reading posts. I kept up on current threads right along, not all of them, that would be more than a full time job for me, but many. I sometimes spent all day ( when I was off work) reading back threads and I have read some thousands by now going back to the early days of the forum. Many that come here get counseling from Steve Harley, or Jennifer Harley Chalmers, his sister. They are the children of Dr Willard F. Harley Jr. who put together the books, the plans, and this web site.

My W and I did not counsel with the Harleys, we didn't have an A to worry about, and we have been able to strengthen our marriage and we are doing quite well, but I have read the stories of many that have used them, and I would like to talk about some things I have seen and that I think would help in this case.

We talk a lot about plan A.
DR Harley says it is a process "used to separate the WS from the OP." It is not recommend that it be used more than 3 months for women, and mot more than 6 months by men. Sometimes we take that as the final word. In the case of Qfwfq, who had been on plan A for about 8 months (correct me if I got the months wrong Q) it was recommend that he was just getting started and that he continue with a really good plan A for some time longer. I have seen others that called and were told that they needed to do plan A for longer still, because theirs was not a really good one, and also they had no boundaries in place during the plan. The biggest reason for starting plan A over are to many LB's early on in the plan. Plan A is not supposed to enable the WS, there are still boundaries, it is supposed to meet needs.

If plan A doesn't work, or if the BS's love bank gets low, it's time for plan B. Usually, and even almost always.

Now, here's the kicker, and why I recommended Jen call for counseling. We learn a lot from reading here, and many of us have read HNHN and other books, but we don't have the benefit of years of study that Dr Harley has. Notice that it's DR Harley. Think about that for a minute. He not only took the years of school, he was sharp enough to compile all the info from his own practice, formulate the plans, and write the books. When Jen and Steve talk to you, then have access to him, and they have the schooling and background to know more than just how to counsel, but much more about human behavior. They take into account that both are WS's, they take into account that Jens H's father died. They have the background and training to look at these things and make a good solid plan that takes them into account.

Now, they are human, and they don't know everything, but consider the training and background that they have that we do not have.

I have followed Jen's thread, and I worry. The signs that we see, say it's time for plan B, but remember what Steve told Q, and it surprised many here but it was right for the stage he was at last summer, and I think he is glad he called and that he stayed in A at that time. ( I think that because I have seen him say it.)

Jen's H is abusive. Signs are that he is also a WS, at least an EA and perhaps PA. On this site we really only see BS's that want to save things. We don't see the thousands that become abusive, rant and rave, file for D and never look back. There are a few that come here that do that for a time and then realize they are still in love and want to save it, but we don't ever see most of them. That would be people that act kind of like Jen's H has been acting.

Now there are a few signs that he may sometimes peek out of the fog. Jen can see things we can't see, hear things we can't hear. She gets the tone of voice stuff, and body language and she thinks sometimes he may be softening up and coming around. She was ready for B once, even had the letter written but couldn't do it yet, because she thought she might be seeing a difference in him.

I believe mthrrhbard made some very accurate observations. One of the reasons I think so is that Jen has mentioned most of them herself over the last few months as being things she is concerned about. I think it is those very things that has kept her from plan B.

Now, after all this background, I'll get to the point. I feel Jen's story is more complicated than most, and I wish she would call for coaching. I believe her marriage is one that can be saved, but I fear it is more sensitive than most and may be lost easily if she makes the wrong moves.

I think we do well to make observations and give ideas, but ought to be careful about what we recommend. Some cases are pretty plain, but I really have a hard time with this one myself. I think boundaries need to be in place, and I worry about what Jen can handle emotionally. I know that many of you fear for her pain and loss of love and that 's why you recommend plan B, but I worry that we may loose him.

TMCM's quote on May 2nd at 9:44 AM is my vote for the best short term plan. Some kind of statement like that makes a lot of sense, and I don't see how it can drive him further away if she modified it some and made it fit their case. For the long term plan, I vote she call in and get some professional help before she does anything major.

SS

Later Edit,
BTW Jen, I'm a guy and I tend to just give answers and not listen, but I care about how you feel, and you are are in my prayers.
( and the rest of you too.)

<small>[ May 02, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>