mimi,
Plan B him. YOU have no contact with HIM until he comes to you. Get your book back too, or get another copy.

BLAH:

Thanks for responding!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Orchid:
You are so right about the anger. You may have noticed it in my last post.

Why does the anger come now? I have been waiting for it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why??? IMHO, your mind and body is tired of playing the nice person. Your ENs along with your physical needs have NOT been met and your body is preparing you for a revolt (aka: shutdown, etc.)

Your guard maybe starting to relax since you are more sure where you are and where you are headed. Going backwards is NOT what you will allow. You have better control and know yourself and your abilities much better. You are not apt to fall for as many of the WS' fogese negative comments as you used to yet the timeframe is the same (24 hours in each day), so what do you do? Your body is already 1 step ahead of you, it wants and needs rest. You will get it now that your body is realizing that it has been getting the short end of the stick and now wants to even the score.

Do those feelings sound familar???

L.

ORCHID:

Oh My Goodness! Are you inside my brain and heart?? You have got it. That's exactly what is going on with me.

I feel like I'm on another higher level. I'm still taking it day by day but I feel a lot stronger. I certainly will not fall for as much of his crap.

Of course, a large part of me longs for him and misses him. But like Mortarman says, that is slowly being locked up somewhere.

This is the best Saturday that I have had in months.

I've been communicating with Blah who is a FWS on the Recovery Board.

I asked him about my WS' seeming controlled and fearful of the OW. He responded that he felt that way with his OW because he WANTED TO BE LOVED BY HER. He CRAVED this. This fits with my WS' questions about me loving him. She fills a need of making him FEEL LOVED. .

It's hard for me to accept/acknowledge that there was a point when I was not showing him love since I see myself as loving him so immensely. I guess he was not doing his part in meeting my emotional needs as well ,as I look back on it. Also, around that time, his parents became estranged from him, don't speak to him, and claims to not know exactly why not. I know he feels like our boys don't love him so all he feels like he has is her. YUK!!!

To me, the past does not matter that much because I can't go back and redo that. However, my WS wants to dwell on what led him into the A and how fearful he is of losing the only one that loves him. I usually say I have to have the opportunity to continue to evidence my love. All I can give him now is words.

I guess I can't do anything about his craving for her love right now, can I? I just have to rely on his memories of my Plan A? and the memories of my loving him in the distant past? Yesterday he did say that only the past 4 or 5 years were bad. He used to say our problems had lasted longer.

I guess I was wondering if I should write him another letter?

I know. Stick to my Plan B. Don't take this to mean that I'm not continuing to feel strong today. I'm just obsessing. I'm not feeling weepy or longing for him. He also gave me the gift of knowing that some love for me is still there and I did not have to beg him to show me. I don't know if that's good or bad but I'm feeling better than I've felt in months.

Let me hear from some of you if you are out there.

Thanks.

Mimi,

Seems like you have come upon additional knowledge, some which you knew but now you have another viewpoint. Still in all that info, do you see a 'valid' reason to have an A? You know what needs you and your children have been missing from your H sending himself out the door. There is no excuse for that.

IMHO, when it 'all' comes out in the wash..... there is no excuse. Having an A due to missing some ENs isn't valid. Is it done? Yes and often but no matter what color or light the WS tries to shine on it, the A is a tarnished spot on their family (see you and the children are 1 package, right?).

So right now don't fret over that 'revelation'. Keep up the plan B stuff and let him come that realization with your plan B efforts. That in turn will protect your love until that time. What do I mean by protection? Protect you from you feelings of love, not just for him but for all who your lives touch. re: Should this end in a D, you will still have the ability to love another should that be your choice without carrying sooo much baggage from your current M. Or if there should be recovery in your M, then plan B will help you let him back in so he can earn the privilege of being your family member. It is not his right, he lost that when he had the A. Father/H or not, he lost that right when he took his body parts out the door.

At least that is how I had to view it. This meant I was prepared (may be not fully but semi??), prepared either way.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid:

You are definitely in my Heart and Brain.

I was seeing it just exactly the way you said it.

Just wanted to make sure that I was on the right track. Your opinion/viewpoint is the same as mine.

No excuse to have an A and I told him so yesterday. Then I closed the door to my heart for now. Now we're on a different playing field because he has definitely decided to continue his A on a very intense level--separation, condo and all.

However, it's just like when my father died. Of course, I'm thinking about that today. You want to step back in the past and change things. My father died on a trip out of town. He called me before leaving. I wish I somehow could have said the right thing in that conversation to keep him from going. He sounded like he did not want to go because of his heart disease. I wish I could go back and time and show my WS how much I loved him. I guess that was not meant to be and I must trudge on.

Orchid, whatever happened in your marriage? I'm not sure I've read your story. Did you do Plan B and for how long if you did?

Thanks for all your valuable feedback and support!!

Mimi,

Here's the short version - LOL!!

Nov 2000, d/d after coming back from a MC visit - our 1st (to help us help his very dysfunctional family w/suicide & bipolar disorders), I was in for a rude awakening.... all were asleep with I found 3 phone messages (1 from a man w/info about a rented room and 2 from PBR who ended it by say very softly "ILY"). I work WS up and asked for an explanation. Went from friend to good friend to having an A. Lots of emotion went on...... next day, 2 elders came to our home to meet with WS, he said he understood it was wrong and unscriptural but wasn't sorry. 2 weeks later he was disfellowshipped, then moved out 2 weeks after that. Ow had planned for him to get D so she gave him website info on quickie D and he ordered the D book w/cd. WS moved in to a rented room 1/2 of our current rent. He took backpay income of several thousand dollars and squandered it on his 'new lifestyle'. He was albe to live out there for 3 1/2 months. His income couldn't pay me for CS and his portion of the bills so he didn't pay me. I used up most of our savings to get by. Closed all credit accounts, took my name of his combo credit cards which I never applied for and never used. I covered all bills during this time. Received about 400 from him during that time.

WS took OW to Yosemite on a vacation in Feb and cried in the store (said he missed his family) but Ow was glowing (like a neon sign - heard about it in a gushy letter later). OW got D sometime in April 2001.

OW claimed prego 1 - Nov/Dec 2000
Prego 2 June 2001 and August 2001. That's how she got the name Psycho Babble Rabbit (PBR).

Ow was 45 in 2000. Said she could tell she was carrying a girl though she was only 4 wks preg, never went to the doc, blamed me for her supposed miscarriage.

There is a story about a laundry bag..... won't go into that one but it was humorous.

Ws stuff was sent out of the house.....at least 5 times.

WS moved back in April 2001. Had 3 more incidents of kicking him out one of them landing him in jail for 2 1/2 days due to D V charges.... police came by 2 times (1st time his sister called police due to his actions, 2nd time he called 911 to tell them I was crazy but police arrested him when they saw him pushing me (not a pretty memory), 3rd time we were coming back from a MC session (those sessions are a trigger for me - LOL!! but the couselor is good) anyways I was driving back (50 miles trip) drove by where we had our wedding reception (it was on the way in another town) and started crying. WS couldn't stand it, I got angry, parked the car on the side of the road and started walking..... a couple of guys in a shop called police. WS threatened to kill himself, I felt the same way. Whole story by itself. I had to really calm down, we were able to go home. MB has my story way back there somewhere.

OW called on our anniversary and the day after..... see, OW had supposedly planned their wedding for Aug 01 (our anniversary is Aug - YUCK).

WS continued to see ow until last year and I believe her last phone call was March 03. From then til now she supposedly been gone. But I keep plan B in my back pocket just in case.

WS talked to Steve in Jan 01, he talked a lot but then said he didn't like Steve's technique.....no duh!!! Steve was pro marriage and his head was up the A butte.

I thought we were in recovery in 2002 but we really weren't. I mainly post on GQII because that is where I am most comfortable.

MB has helped me a lot. I dealt with feelings of worthlessness while having to deal with WS A, his family issues(both inlaws and 8 out of 12 siblings - 2 are already dead), my parent's health issues, a estranged sister, work problems, finance issues, child in school, losing a cat to cancer, employee moral issues both my dept and others, personal health issues, etc.

Sounds like a lot and it is. However, I also maintained a lot of support. It came from all sources. I prayed for a clear mind and a calm heart. My support included family, friends, neighbors, child's school, daycare, my boss, workmates, God, MB, my child, reading, MC, doctor, nurse, elders, parents, in-laws, PI, phone company, credit counselor, posting here at MB, while shopping, e-mailing with some MBers, etc.

I had my trying times. H finally came home, physically, mentally and morally (I believe) just this year. It has been a long time.

I had to talk to the wall at times when he first came back. He has to learn to not speak to me with anger when I did not deserve it. He had to find a way to handle his anger (he found an IC but didn't like her words).

He admitted his issue (like an addiction confession) and then was able to commit to working on us. I learned to give him more responsiblity and do less. Say less and expect more.....in some crazy way that is what he wanted and so did I but his actions proved otherwise. He saw his actions were contrary so the onis was put on him to resolve that issue.

I get more than before but not close to where we should be....not yet. I am optimistic but will not allow myself to be used in such a way again. Going to plan B is not scary for me. It is my source of strength. I now know my value and that of my family. The WS even acknowledged his family was priceless. I was able to use his words to help him come out of his A. Told him to put a $$ value on our worth and give it to me, then I would release him from our M. Hmm....... even though the fog, this message came through. OW even offered $ (how tacky), I raised the stakes soo high(played their sicko game) that she was soon out of the league..... that turning point helped the WS see we were worth more than anything that scumbag old hag had to offer. It almost made him a homeless man, he almost lost it all for what? An old hag.

Now he is home and his lesson learned is in front of him every day. We now work on things together and his communication skills are improving. He told me, there was never anything wrong with me, it was him..... that piece he still says. So I said, well I know I have places for improvement so let me know when I step out of line and help me to not get upset then I will do the same for you. He has agreed. We are getting there....... I think we are on the way to recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Wow, Orchid. That is one huge, marathon story. You have an immense amount of strength and stamina.

Actually, I was just dropping in to see how Mimi was. I have kept up with your story Mimi, but being in a different stage of life and M, feel that I really can't say much which will help.

I'm thinking of you and the decisions you are having to make. I agree with Melody Lane about the meaning of his do -you-love-me message. My WH wants to be able to choose between 2 sure bets. He wanted me to lower myself so that I would reassure him that if he couldn't find happiness with OW, then he could always come back to me. Well none of us BS deserve to be treated as second best, you don't deserve to be seen as a back up option Mimi and neither do I.

I have learned a lot from playing hockey. If you play with a defensive strategy of merely reacting to the other team's tactics, you will lose. Big time. Plan B is about playing your own game (metaphorically - not in the "mind games" sense!). If you are clear about what your strategy is and what your contingencies are (eg, if he calls, I will say .....) then you won't be reacting to the WS and the ridiculuous things they say due to the fog.

I have also learned a lot from my job - I am a high school teacher. Consistency, consistency, consistency. If you say you will act in a certain way, then you MUST follow through. If you don't follow through, you undermine yourself. You can have all the right words to say, but actions do speak louder.

I hope you are enjoying the weekend. My birthday party was a night to be remembered! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If we all examine ourselves we can find fault. Where we had needs and couldn't meet spouses due to our need.
But it's never an excuse. Nor should a WS use it. This statement of things haven't been good for 4 or 5 yrs is just another excuse.
did they ever give a thought to the fact that they're needs might not have been fully met because they were the ones cutting BW out of life? OR not meeting their spouse needs?
It's a two way street and I'm so tired of it always being the BW that is supposed to have failed some great test and forgot to kiss the mans [censored]!
As for any of them needing to stick with the OP to find they are loved, they are strictly using another excuse as if to say, "YOU haven't made me feel loved"!
Ah, excuse me, but when was H making us feel loved by sleeping with another woman?
And how is that supposed to make us closer?
Mimi, stick with the plan, but don't give this man an inch when he comes crawling back.
As far as I'm concerned, it's time that the WS took full responsibility for the crap in marriage. And full blame for the problems now existing.
On another site, a BW has a H who had A for 12 yrs, a child with OW and now he wants a second chance? Wants her to forgive and keep working on the marriage?
After all the 12 yrs of lies, deceit?
Mimi, you see to be heading the same place. While H makes up his mind?
Move on girl. You have just begun and will find a greater, better commitment I believe with somebody new!
Your H has had his chance and failed miserably.
LouLou

Loulou:

Wow! My WS pissed you off, girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, he's continuing with his rationalizations. That's why I need you guys. I'm so gullible. It's hard for me to admit to myself the games that he is playing with me.

I have to work on building a life like Orchid's, filling my pie with as much support and from as many different sources as possible. My problem is that I have depended on my WS almost exclusively for emotional support. I have not allowed myself to get that close to others. He encouraged the dependence. Therefore, it seems like the ultimate betrayal. I still feel really connected to him when we speak although he is only giving me crumbs. I can't understand that! I'm finding it hard to reach out to other people. For example,I have a friend that keeps asking me to dinner. She asked me again today but I did not feel comfortable because it would have been with her and her family. I've never done things alone as an adult. It is so weird and scary!!!

Lou, I totally agree with you about how there are no excuses now for my WS. What he is doing is AWFUL and inexcusable . I do not deserve this at all regardless of any of the mistakes that I have made in my M. Claire is also right about how we don't deserve to be considered as a second option.

You guys certainly keep me pumped up when he tries to get to me. That's why we need to stay on this board.

I'm certainly sticking with the PLAN. In order for me to consider taking him back he will have to come begging and pleading. Keep me to my word.

I'm sad about my increased hopelessness this weekend, though. Despite feeling better personally I feel more pessimistic about the outcome of my marriage. I am not all happy about that. It just seems like too many hurdles to jump over.

<small>[ June 15, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi

you have got some great advice from Melody, Orchid and Mortarman (and many others!). I think you are making definite progress.
My advice would be to accept the dinner invitation.

Good luck

S.

Salerio,

Thanks for being there, Bud!!!

I am feeling more and more pissed off as Orchid has predicted.

I realized though that I do feel more content spending time by myself right now. I'm learning to find peace with my aloneness. I'm making my house into MY house and growing pretty flowers outside. I'm not ready to venture out into a lot of social occasions. I continue to love going to my church, though. I absolutely hate going shopping. I hate seeing couples together. It seems that there are a lot of triggers when I venture out.

We'll see what happens today.

Mimi,

you said...

I'm finding it hard to reach out to other people. For example,I have a friend that keeps asking me to dinner. She asked me again today but I did not feel comfortable because it would have been with her and her family. I've never done things alone as an adult. It is so weird and scary!!!

MIMI!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm gonna come over there and swat you with the MB (soft-padded) (pink or blue depending on gender) two by four!!!!

This is exactly the time to conquer those fears and challenges that you reconize.
Learning to do things alone as an adult is a healthy thing for you to learn to do AND enjoy regardless of the state of your marriage...

Chosing not do something is WAY WAY different then being afraid of doing something...

I do see the risk though...
you might use the wrong salad fork...
you might talk with your mouth full
someone might say something funny while you are drinking and you might snort lemonade out your nose...
you might offer to help clean up just being polite... and they let you...(HATE THAT!!!)

Or, OR, Or!!!!!!

YOU might just have a darn good time and realize that they keep asking YOU cause they like YOU...want YOU to have a nice time...and want YOU there...

Feeling uncomfortable is OK...and experiencing by accepting the invitation just makes us stronger..yeah so this is what if feels like...guess what ...I can live through this....

plan A continues even in Plan b....learning and doing and becoming stronger and we get stronger each time we face what scares us...and get through it..

And doing things that are different that don't have a direct correlation to the WS...do help to serve us in helping us learn to face fears..some are little like dinner with a friends...some are huge...like working on your marriage....don't pass up learning opportunities...especially ones that include FOOD!!!!

NOW i am not recomending that if you are deathly allergic to shell fish and you friend serves it you eat a big plateful...cause that Mimi would be scarey...but dinner at friends who has ivited you twice...

offer to bring dessert..and Go go go!!!!
ARK

Mimi

I think ark is spot-on here. Learning to step outside yourself a little is something that will benefit you irrespective of the results of your plan A and plan B.

I liked the following quote I found this morning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To laugh is to risk appearing the fool.
To weep is to risk appearing sentimental.
To reach for another is to risk involvement.
To expose your feelings is to risk exposing your true self.
To place your ideas, your dreams before a crowd is to risk their loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To live is to risk dying.
To believe is to risk despair.
To try is to risk failure.
But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing.
The person who risks nothing does nothing, has nothing, is nothing.
They may avoid suffering an d sorrow, but they cannot learn, feel, change, grow, love, live.
Chained by their attitudes they are slaves; they have forfeited their freedom.
Only a person who risks is free </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck

Mimi,
I'm with Ark on this one! Venture out, accept the invitation and enjoy!
I don't go out a lot, but certainly more than when I was "waiting" for H to come home weekends.
And now I realize, that I do remember how to laugh, joke, listen and have fun!
It's great to hear feedback too! For example, my good friend tells me how the group of people she has introduced me to and with whom I've gone out with on several occasions, think I'm great to be with, funny and that I'm handling my horrible situation with great strength and humour, etc.
It is wonderful too for one's self-esteem to hear those types of comments, especially if they are also coming from the opposite sex!!
So go out, have fun, take your mind off things for a few hours, it does help and gives you something to look forward to.

Office phone ringing repeatedly from 9AM until 11AM but no one leaves a Voice Mail Message until 11:AM. Guess Who? WS saying:"I've been trying to reach you. Guess I'll talk to you later."

He was expecting me to pick up the phone? Hope he's figured out I'm not going to do that by now.

Trying to get the furniture? He should have said so. Wanting to talk about reconciliation? He could have said that too.

Wanting to do more cake-eating? YES. I've figured it out. He needs some conversation. There's something about Mondays. He must feel locked in with her on the weekends. Shouldn't be my concern.

Any thoughts? Let me hear from you guys if you are there. I still continue to need pumping up. Don't want to answer that phone.

Yes. I am now in control. I love it.

A ZILLION HUGS TO YOU especially you Ark, Salerio and Learnin who are encouraging me to venture out. As usual, you guys, are so right on target. A positive thing from all of this is my learning that people really do love me and want to be with me. That is a great esteem-builder. I do need to grow in the ability to go out alone. It just seems that I am faced with so many challenges in this new world of mine that I feel overwhelmed. I'm trying to take it one day at a time. I'm just beginning to feel comfortable being alone with myself. Even when my WS was home, but out there most of the time, I would spend my free time waiting for him and wondering where he was. At least, I don't have that sense of anticipation and worry clogging up my mind. I'm getting there!!!!!

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Good job Mimi!!! He will now be getting curious about what is going on in your mind....Tell him nothing.. let him wonder...

It drives a man crazy when a woman becomes "unavailable".. you are showing confidence and self respect, and this is what men respond to......

When he does talk to you and tries to find out if you will take him back you HAVE to tell him that you are not sure what you want.. that maybe this was for the best...(in other words, do and say the things the WS does because they are the things that get people to pursue.)

Do not forget to hang up first if he does get you on the phone.. Just be business like, do some small talk, get on to the matter he called about, then tell him you have to go.....

I have helped many women get their men back... Trust me... What you are doing works the best of anything to get them to come around... Do not take him back easily.. He needs to wonder if he has lost you and maybe made a mistake...

KEEPMVN:

I hear you loud and clear!

Another call and no message left at 1:00 PM.

AS THE FOG TURNS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>