MY GIFT TO YOU-PLEASE LISTEN!! - Marriage Builders® Forums

Hi You Guys:
I should have been back a whole lot sooner. I hope you will continue to help me although I thought that I could make it on my own. You see, I was abducted by aliens.

Backtracking for those of you that may not know my story: D-Day was 12/31/02. WS stayed home through the month of January while I continued with PLAN A, thinking that he was not leaving. He had plans all the time of moving into a condo 02/03. I guess the new condo was not ready yet. After one week in the condo, he called and stated that he had made a mistake and wanted to work on coming home. At this time, he was nicer than he had been during the month of January. In January, although I was doing PLAN A, he remained hostile, distant and cold and spent weekends away with the OW.

From the beginning of February, we talked or saw each other almost daily. I have to admit now that I became just like the OW. He kept his relationship with me a secret from her, presenting her as being like Glen Close in Fatal Attraction and stating that he was working on "a plan" to get out of the relationship. In fact, her sister was working in his office and left March 1, which was when the A was supposed to end. He kept putting me off until April.

April 1, he delivered the NC letter, we went off for a trip out West. She showed up at our doorstep that night looking for him, according to our teenage son.I thought it was a special trip and we had a wonderful time. We arrived home on Monday. To make a long story short, Tuesday night I caught him with her at the condo. I embarassed to say, I tried to fight him that night and he fought me back. It was a dangerous situation. She was there but did not intervene.

What I'm getting ready to report sounds crazy but is true. The very next day, we talked all day and he requested to try again. He stated a realization that he had gone "insane" about thi situation. He came over and apologized to our son. He stayed home for 3 weeks, until April 30. In fact, he moved all of the furniture from the condo into this house. All of the furniture except the bed, that is.

Yesterday, we signed legal separation papers. Steve H. recommended that I seek the separation. You see, what I ended up doing unknowingly was to enable his A. By having contact with him, he was able to have his cake and eat it too. He was able to adjust to the condo, even seemed to begin to enjoy his time there better.

I'm looking for your help and suggestions. Steve did not specifically tell me to do PLAN B, just to obtain the legal separation to protect myself. My WS actually labels his A an "addiction" and he is not knowledgeable of the MB principles. He knows his behavior is wrong and the A is destructive but he can't stay away from her. My problem is that he has made this choice.

Do I do PLAN B? Otherwise, won't he do the same thing again. He already is putting off getting the furniture and is wanting me to help him with the separation arrangements. He has been more than generous in the separation agreement, paying a huge amount of alimony and child support.

I'm having a lot of trouble with not contacting him. You see, I've been in more real contact with him over the past few months than I have had in years when he had distanced himself from me. Then BOOM, he wants to leave again

What do I do now???????

[ September 15, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Please help me. Any suggestions are welcomed.

Hi Mimi

I am sorry you find yourself back at MB. I know that from time to time, we all need to take a break from MB because we either think our lives should be lived putting into practice the things we have learned, or that it can at times, become depressing. I think I tend to spend far too much time here, but hey, this is about you, not me.

Mimi, firstly don't forget how quiet the weekends can be. If you don't get responses, remember to bump up the thread on Monday morning when more people will be here.

I am so sorry that your discovery of continued contact led you to be physical with your H and him in return to you. I have to say I fully empathise with this, having only recently confessed here the particular physical nature of my R with H (predominantly him towards me), but that on 1 particular occassion, I just lost it completely. I understand how this can make you feel as an individual.

Now, if Steve H recommended sepearation and not Plan B, what did he recommend? And as for you, if you do not go to Plan B (given that SH said you had been enabling the A), what would you suggest as an alternative? I'm putting the ball back in your court, because I have to say that only you can really decide whether or not it is time for Plan B, and all the well meaning advice - hey, it is just that advice. It is your life not ours. So, I would ask you the question, if you are making arrangements for a legal separation, do you think it is appropriate to continue Plan A (given SH's advice about enabling)? Have you talked to him again about whether to Plan B or not?

Mimi, once again, I am so sorry that you are back here after hoping that your M was going well in recovery. Take care of yourself, what are you doing for you, and keep posting?

Lisa

[ May 10, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]

Lisa,
Thanks for responding. Steve has never talked to me in terms of "PLAN A" or "PLAN B". He just tells me specifically what to do and then if I don't ask him a particular question I don't get an answer. Hope that makes sense. He told me to proceed with the separation which I did. He then told me not to tell him beforehand that I would not have contact. He did not want me to give my WS an "ulimatum".

My concern about PLAN B is not being able to stick with it. My WS has a habit of getting me to backdown with my actions so I have to follow a plan that I can really follow through with. It is best for me to have no contact with him but I'm not sure I'm strong enough at this point to do that. Honestly we have had such great times together over the past few months. Of course, he has been seeing the OW at the same time or having some sort of contact with her.

I've been wondering where you went! I was hoping things had turned out well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Objectively, it's Plan B or share your H with another woman. None of us can make that choice for you, but one thing is for sure, it will take him a long time(if at all) to realize what he has to lose unless you go to a strict Plan B. If you keep doing what you're doing now and have been in the past, you can expect to get more of the same from him.

If you haven't read Dobson's Love Must be Tough, you might want to read it now. Remember, no consequences means no motivation to change.

Everyone has given you some good advice. I don't think Steve H told you to plan seperation unless he meant Plan B. Ofcourse you and h are getting along great right now. Ofcourse he is being generous with alimoney/child support. It's almost a pay-off to you for his wrong doings. It helps ease his guilt. You are enabling his behavior. He knows the routine now, you catch him, get angry and then become so afraid that he will dump you altogether and chose to be with OW that you give in and let him have you and her. I only hope that if you are still sexual with him that you have been USING PROTECTION! Because that means he is sleeping with both you and OW and that is very unhealthy. The only thing that stops anything from changing in this scenerio is FEAR. As long as you have fear of being alone or losing him completely then he will continue to do as he pleases. JMO

How so I get rid of the fear? Do you think that my marriage has a chance if I do PLAN B? Do I write a PLAN B letter? He still has all of his furniture from the condo and most of his clothes here? Do I arrange for him to come get his stuff without me being home? Do I start PLAN B immediately? Any help with answers to these questions would be appreciated.

What made me get caught up in this web? I was not aware that I was enabling. It felt so good to feel like he loved me again. Don't you think that he made some sort of change as a result of my PLAN A?

More about getting rid of the fear. Would it be helpful to begin to grieve-"face it, it's over as one friend said. Or do I believe that Plan B is my best hope for the marriage. I'm thinking that I should not give up hope. Even my WS tells me not to give up hope. Of course, he continues to want us both, right? Is that a conscious preference of his, you think?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
More about getting rid of the fear. Would it be helpful to begin to grieve-"face it, it's over as one friend said. Or do I believe that Plan B is my best hope for the marriage. I'm thinking that I should not give up hope. Even my WS tells me not to give up hope. Of course, he continues to want us both, right? Is that a conscious preference of his, you think?<hr /></blockquote>Mimi,

Good to hear from you but sorry to hear your H is backsliding again. However, this is quite common as long as they stay in that fog.

Remember that plan B is NOT always the end of a M. It is a display that you will no longer take that roller coaster ride and that you choose to move forward.

When those reoccuring d/ds happened to us, I finally got soooo sick and tired, I told him I wanted out of their sicko game. He claimed no games were going on but the OW clearly showed she was in a contest. I wasn't. So I sent him to her and told him I wanted my $$$$. She promised him health and $$$. He came back poorer and sick. I was fumming. So when d/d came up again, it was much easier to implement plan B and send him out, even in the dead of winter. No more excuses. Could not feel sorry for him.

What those actions did for me was bring me the relief I didn't know I had lost. The A drained me sooo much and in such a subtle way that I didn't realize I was running on empty. After a while one does not realize how bad off we are emotionally.

L.

Thanks Orchid. I've have been feeling the need to get out of their sick system but of course I am finding it hard to do. You're right it's sick how I feel like she's beginning to be part of my life. He's told me so much about her lately and of course her life was sordid compared to my holy, godly life. He's chosen that for now. That's what so unbelievable. That he could knowingly choose an evil life.

What does d/ds stand for?

d/d (multiple discovery days). YUCK

He is not in a logical state of mind. Doesn't matter how good or even bad you may be. You will not be able to understand his choices so if you can don't waste your precious time and energy on it.

L.

Mimi -

When I read your story, I could relate so much to it. WH and I got into a physical altercation with OP in the apartment too. It's yucky, horrible and sad to see where your marriage and life goes once an A has taken ahold of it.

All I can say is "me too" on the situation of WH saying "don't give up on us, etc., etc." I wanted to believe it so badly. He has even made references to "when this is over" meaning the A. I let H come home multiple times and each time he started contacting OP. Each time, I asked him to leave but once he left I would still spend a lot of time with him. One day I hijacked his cell phone and listened to messages of OP professing her love for him and I snapped. I declared Plan B and for the first time stuck with it as much as our situation allows (see my signature).

Once you get used to it, Plan B is soooo much easier than Plan A. You start concentrating on yourself and your own life rather than his and OPs. It allows you to get off the roller coaster and has allowed me the freedom to say, "despite our years together and our children, this man is no longer right for me and I deserve better. I am scared and face the future with uncertainty but I know that better days are ahead, be it with another person or not."

It is only in the instances (like today when WH dropped off 3 yo and gave me a mothers day gift) that I get very mentally involved with his life and that of the OPs.

From reading your posts, I don't think your WH is going to change under your current operating proceedure. If you are willing to live with OW in your life, continue on. If you are unwilling, go to Plan B and your marriage may work out or you may learn that you can be happy without him too.

Best wishes to you.

Mimi,

When you disappeared, I think most people here were hoping that everything had resolved and you didn't need MB (although we wished you would have sent a good bye post before leaving!) Sorry this is not the case and sorry to hear your news.

I'll repeat some stuff I said to you a while ago. Remember when I said focus on you. Go on those hikes, get out and meet people, make your H wonder a bit. I think he is so comfortable figuring you will always be there. I think he's had a year of having OW on the side, and you too! Maybe now is the time to let him find up what it is like to depend on OW, what life is like with her.

I don't know if you need a formal Plan B. Definitely follow Steve's advice. My advice is as follows= 1) Be pleasant but very business like with your H. Hold him to the financial agreements and PROTECT yourself. 2) Go a little dark on him. Don't always be available. Really focus on you, get out there and work on making a life for yourself without him. 3) Enforce a visitation agreement with him. Make him take your son every other weekend. Tell him and son that you are under too much stress and you need time to heal. You need time alone. 4) Your official mantra is that your heart is breaking over the loss of your marriage but you are trying to cope as best you can and deal with the fact that he has chosen OW and is making a life with her. Always say this calmly but sorrowfully. 5) Let him HANG HANG HANG with OW. Don't make yourself available to him. 6) Don't push him to get his furniture. It's his problem at this point. Let him figure it out. Ignore him, don't discuss stuff with him. Avoid him. But if you are in contact with him, be polite but cut off communication quickly.

Good luck.

PS. I understand about the fear! I felt it too. It's terribly painful. Get anti Ds if necessary. remember being in the triangle is agony, you deserve better.

[ May 10, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

Dueinjan:
Did you write a PLAN B letter? I'm wondering whether I should distance myself from him without writing a letter.

Espoir:

So wonderful to hear from you. As always, your feedback is very helpful. Your approach is almost exactly what I was thinking about using. I'm not sure I'm strong enough yet to commit to PLAN B and I don't want him to see me back down.

I did a great thing today which might be a sign of a new me. I invited 3 of my best girlfriends over to dinner and spilled the whole beans to them for the first time. They were so amazed that they could hardly eat. It was wonderful. Their feedback was extremely helpful. They, like you, encouraged me to focus on myself. They made me see how obsessed I am with my WH and OW. They stressed how I do not belong in their way of life. That I do not want to go their gutter level. You see my WS kept reporting to me all this info about their sordid life and the sickness of their relationship. It seemed he needed to be with me to get some respite from that. You're right I'm going to let him stay in that world since that's the world that he has chosen. I plan to stay out of that triangle!

I will stay on MB this time in order to help to stay focused.

I have been following Jen Brown's thread regarding readiness for PLAN B.

I'm thinking that I need to work on building up my self-confidence, not allowing myself to be manipulated by my WS before doing PLAN B. Otherwise, I feel that I will fail and not be tough enough.

My PLAN A resulted in my WS "considering me as an option" and beginning to cake-eat. In previous months, he had shut me out completely. I ultimately fail at meeting his need for ADMIRATION since OW is 16 years younger, from a different class and educational level, finding everything that he does to be wonderful. Also he excited about the idea of making her over, sending her to college, etc. YUKK!

I'm thinking that I will use the LOVE IS TOUGH approach and have minimal to no contact with WS without sending the PLAN B letter. I really have to learn to live without him. I am dependent on him in so many ways, having been with him since age 18. That is a long time,30 years. He recognizes my dependency and neediness and uses it as a means of control and manipulation. That is starting to really piss me out.

For financial reasons, I have to limit my sessions with Steve to an as needed basis. Thinking back over our session, he definitely wanted me to agree to the legal separation that was being requested by my WS. He felt that I needed this in order to not give up "HOPE" about my marriage since my WS was being so "HURTFUL" and he is so strongly "ADDICTED". Steve had plenty opportunity to recommend a PLAN B letter but he did not.

I'm certainly in a different place than I have been in the past. I continued to have the desire to drive by her place and his place to see if she is there. However, I have not been in despair about them being together.

Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated.

Happy Mother's Day to all!!!

Another question: Most say I should stay away from the OW. She seems to think she is in control of the situation and is trying to portray me as nutty and out of control. However, should I tell her that my WS was seeing me on the side for the past 3 months. Would she believe this now since all of the condo furniture is here and all they have is a bed over there. That is, unless, he went out this weekend and bought more furniture.

Hello mimi1254

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Another question: Most say I should stay away from the OW. She seems to think she is in control of the situation and is trying to portray me as nutty and out of control. However, should I tell her that my WS was seeing me on the side for the past 3 months. Would she believe this now since all of the condo furniture is here and all they have is a bed over there. That is, unless, he went out this weekend and bought more furniture.
<hr /></blockquote>Do you really want to do this? I don't get it you are planing for separation or plan B and want to contact OW?

I don't see anything good coming out of it, besides confrontation, beating you out because she is younger and anyway that is not a way to fight for your H. Yes I know we want to hurt OW's sometimes but I think in this case you would be the one comming out more hurted so stay away! that is what is called sepparation or plan B.

Take care

Thanks for responding. I don't think I'll contact her. Just want to do something. I have to learn to just sit back and wait.

Remember it's not about HER! Do not waste your precious energy and time thinking about her. In thinking about her you give her power. Forget about her and focus on what you need to do. She'll hang her own self in time, she's got plenty of rope.

Mimi,

I see myself in you... the dependence, and neediness for the old relationship, for ws to be himself.

It will only begin again, by rebeginning a new relationship. You wouldn't let him treat you like he does now in the past, would you?

It is so hard when your h has been possessed by some creep you don't even know. It is almost better to pretend he is mentally ill, in a way he is, and then just hope that he will recover. It is so so hard.

I hope we can talk or email as I can so relate to the feelings you are hving. Be strong, don't let him see or be aware of your pining for him. He will want you more as you draw back. Be available but distant, more distant than he is... I know this is hard, but protect you right now.

I am having anxiety today b/c I am going to spend some time with cake eater ws for mother's day. I am angry at him - but would like some contact. I am tired of the whole mess. I am letting him make all the moves, invites, etc. now and requiring more of him to see me... and not stooping to an embarrasing level of desperation... which I was doing for months.

Oh well, ws is im-ing me right now, I am about to end up in tears, b/c I told him I do not want to drive in to his place, and now he says he cannot pick me up...?

Oh well, the place he wants to go is closer to his place, and we are an hour, well maybe 30 minutes from him.. he could definitely come and pick me up, and sounds like he won't... he is being his regular self. I do not feel ok about driving to meet him, so he can just be nice to me.

I am losing my positive energy I had a minute ago so will go, I hope to talk to you again soon. Hope and Hugs to you, take care of you while he is insane.

Hugs, Honey

Hi Mimi.

I relate very closely to you. Like you, my Plan A left my WH with me as the option once, if and when the A ended. I, too, was (and still am, to some degree) somewhat obsessed (maybe not the right word) with the OW and their relationship. Plan B really helps with that. I have gone so far as to alter my way home from work so that I don't have to drive by his apt. and see which cars are out front. This is a large step forward from someone (me) who secretly had a copy of his apartment key made and would check out his apt. from time-to-time.

To answer your question, I didn't write a Plan B letter to the specifications of Harley but I had written several similar letters in the past. Here's the deal, if your WH is like mine (and it sounds like he is) the letters MEAN NOTHING. It is your action that counts. It is only when you start ignoring his calls, not calling back, responding only when absolutely necessary (and, if possible only with voice mail) that he will get the picture and it will begin to hurt. You may not see the hurt, but it will eventually. Or, if it doesn't, you're closer to personal recovery than you were. My WH said tearfully once soon after Plan B began, "you won't even talk to me." Nope, I won't, unless it is regarding the welfare or schedule of my children.

Recently, my WH exaggerated a work situation that he knew would get my attention. (He's a teacher and said that a student had claimed that he assaulted her (he grabbed her arm) and that he would probably get fired and maybe arrested). I did go see him and calmed him down (I was his rock - hey, where's OW in the time of need?) but the only help I offered was that I would take care of the children and that he need not worry about their schedule etc. while he's going through this (I bit my tongue on the offer to visit him in jail <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) Guess what, the whole thing "blew over". It's very easy to get pulled in from time to time (I do) and those sneaky WH's will try. But your life is oh, so much more important that the nasty crap that's going on in his life right now.

I'm no professional in this arena - but my vote is to take yourself out of the triangle. Let them continue in the mess they've created. Oh, by the way - admiration is my WH's big EN too - the one that OW is filling so well. How in heck is the BS (us) suppossed to show admiration (in Plan A) while the WH is cheating on us. I tried, "Oh you're a wonderful father and so handy around the house." Trying to come up with stuff that wasn't completely false - but come on - how does that compare to what OW is able to dish out at this point!! My $.02.

Wow Duejan!

You are my SISTER! You topped me on getting that apartment key. I have been dying to get inside of my WS' condo. I also do alot of checking and searching which I'm trying to stop doing.

I had my GFs over yesterday. They all stressed my need to get out of the triangle. That I do not want to be apart of their world. That I need to maintain my self-respect and not go to their gutter level, etc. They told me that I need to get back to being myself, a better self, that is. This is just DAY 2 and I'm getting there.

WS called on my cellphone voicemail today; I've been turning the phone off so that he can't reach me directly. He was whining about not wanting me to make the boys "hate" him by telling them about the A. Now, why is that my responsibility? He needs to ask the OW why she came to my house and asked my son where my WS was if he did not want them to know about the affair.

That's a good point about the difficulty with admiration. I was thinking that too. It comes off as being phoney to try to admire him at this point. I'm convincing myself, good riddance for him now, because Admiration will be mostly all that he will have for awhile. I'm planning on sticking to my guns with the modified PLAN B.

I can't help but wonder what is going on with them though. He has not made any moves to try to get the furniture back to the condo. I'm not making it easy for him to get in touch with me either. So all weekend they have had to rough it. I know it should not be my concern but I bet that there is alot of LBing going on from her. He has been fooled into thinking that she is not a goldigger. I think she will show her true colors now, particularly when and if she learns about the alimony amount that he has agreed to pay.

Meanwhile I'm thinking about things that I can do to work on myself. I'm putting my house up for sale so getting it ready will take up some time. I'm looking forward to beginning to look for a new house that is just mine. I might even get a puppy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What is wrong with me? Help me to get some sense in my head!

I started bagging up his stuff last night. He has loads and loads of clothes in his closet which he states he will have to get "slowly". Also his drawers are full!

After finishing several bags, I started getting that scared feeling that he will be mad at me? Why I can't get mad at him? That's how he continues to control me.

I'm coming to the realization that there is no chance for us as long as there is any relationship between them. Unfortunately, I'm here hoping that they are fighting since he isn't trying to get any of his stuff. Maybe he's depressed about the separation. Why should I care??

I started thinking that I am addicted to him. However, when I said this to Steve H., he said that my feelings about WS are appropriate since I see him as "MY TEAM-MATE". I'm sorry that I didn't ask Steve more about this because what I am feeling does not seem to be healthy, wanting someone that does not seem to want me.

Venting this morning!!

HELP!!!!! I want to call him. We've talked every morning for the past three weeks.

Originally posted by mimi1254:
What is wrong with me? Help me to get some sense in my head!

Orchid: U are hurt, frustrated, scared and confused. Yep all separate feelings rushing together in a panic. Very normal for a BS in your sitch.

I started bagging up his stuff last night. He has loads and loads of clothes in his closet which he states he will have to get "slowly". Also his drawers are full!]/b]

Orchid: U finished the packing. Don't do it on 'his timetable' that's WS babble. U get it out when you are ready. He will take what he needs. I got the same line and after a few times of that learned to pack him up (for my sake) in less than 2 hours when he told me it would take 2 -4 weeks. (yea right!).

[b]After finishing several bags, I started getting that scared feeling that he will be mad at me? Why I can't get mad at him? That's how he continues to control me.

Orchid: U will get mad at him, just not right now. Your motherly instincts are taking over and you want to protect your family (including H). Realize that he isn't acting like a worthy family member right now.

I'm coming to the realization that there is no chance for us as long as there is any relationship between them. Unfortunately, I'm here hoping that they are fighting since he isn't trying to get any of his stuff. Maybe he's depressed about the separation. Why should I care??

Orchid: Right now that is correct. You care because that is who you are. Can't erase that so don't. Let him know (later) that it is very hard for you to stop caring. Those words will ring in his hears.

I started thinking that I am addicted to him. However, when I said this to Steve H., he said that my feelings about WS are appropriate since I see him as "MY TEAM-MATE". I'm sorry that I didn't ask Steve more about this because what I am feeling does not seem to be healthy, wanting someone that does not seem to want me.

Orchid: I understand. Steve is correct. But you can't just turn off your feelings. So don't fight it. It will dwindle down to a level you can work with. Remember you just had another d/d type of sitch again.

Venting this morning!!

Orchid: Vent away...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have to go to work so I won't be checking for a while. Keep posting, it sure helped me.

take care,
L.

I realize now that staying in THEIR ALIEN WORLD made me feel more and more unworthy. I'm glad I made the decision to get together with my friends. They, like ORCHID, reminded me that I am a caring person and that's OK. My WS could control and manipulate me by deflating my self-esteem. That kept me from questioning him.

Right now, I'm moreso back on top of things like I was in late January/early February when I was doing such a grand PLAN A. I'm not sure what PLAN I'm doing now. I guess PLAN A with better boundaries or PLAN B with continued but very limited contact. One thing is for sure, I will no longer be the OW. I will maintain my position as the W. NO DATING, NO SECRET MEETINGS, etc.

He is already trying to get back into his cake-eating pattern again. I'm not picking up for telephone calls which is a new pattern for me. We are communicating through Voice Mail. He needs to make financial arrangements regarding a couple of matters. His voice tone and attitude is so nice and gracious, giving the message I will do anything you ask me to do. Anything but get rid of the OW, that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm no fool! He indicates that he does not want me to leave detailed messages on his voice mail, suggesting that he does not want her to know that he is helping me. He seems to recognize that this is back to our previous pattern and then says, "I guess NO ONE (OW) can listen to my messages". I plan to leave whatever messages I need to leave. There is no need for us to keep it a secret that we are married, right?

I can't help but wonder why he is so AFRAID of her. I guess it's that strong need for the DRUG

What I resent most right now is that I am almost right back where I was before in terms of being the stable one, handling this situation. What do you guys see that I need to do differently? Does this stuff go on and on forever?? Do As ever end????

I think what's good, though, is that I will get stronger and will be a more independent, less needy woman. That's MY PLAN

Melody and WAT are you still out there?

Good Mimi,

U will find that your bounce back to personal recovery will be quicker and stronger this time than the original. Also you will be setting those boundaries in a firmer mode (bigger bite) on the WS and he will feel it. He may whine about you not caring and you know what? He is right. How can you care for someone who keeps leaving his pants on the street? I used to paint those graphic illustrations to the WS so that he could have those sordid thoughts while he was with the OW. Oh yea, for me it was easier to push them together than fight to keep them apart. That really pizzed off the OW since she thought I was only programmed to break the A. Right.... what a ding dong!!!! There are many ways to break the A and sometimes it includes smushing their faces in their A feaces. YUCK!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

He's creating a problem for himself. I'm beginning to like this CONDO furniture. There's a nice leather couch in the sitting room part of my bedroom and several nice chairs. He has not mentioned anything about arranging to come get it. I know, but I can't help but wonder what she's thinking about that empty place. At least, they have a bed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Use the furniture or sell it???? I hear possession is 9/10ths of the law!!!! Since that piece of law was attempted to be used against me, I think it should also be used to benefit the BS as needed!!!!

L.

[ May 12, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Mimi, sorry to hear he's backtracking and not making the break permanent.
Get your finances in order and legally! Next, continue to be evasive with him, not always available.
If you're selling your house, make sure he's off title so its all yours!
Also, I do not care how young this woman is, you can outlook, outshine her in everyway.
Make yourself over, whatever it takes. I think you said you'd lost lot of weight. Exercise, tone, it's good for releasing good hormones so you feel better. Get new hair style, professional makeup lessons at Dept store, they do it for free!
Get new, sexy, but classy clothes. There is a difference between sexy and sexy classy. LOl I'm sure you know what I mean.
Act happy, be gone a lot when you can. Be evasive about your social life!
Enlist friends, family to babysit. If you have to, enlist a friend, friends brother, or whomever to be seen with you occasionally. Make him jealous and wondering what you're up to!
He feels he owns you and he can switch back and forth at his whims. Let him think you're moving on with your life and finding someone else also.
The young'un will become boring after a while!
My kids are grown, but there isn't a young woman out there I can't give a run for her money. LOL Looks and all.
You're age is the advantage actually!
Be mysterious from now on. Be the seductive, alluring type. But not with him. Just let him wonder who's benefiting by the new you!
Some may not agree, but I say it drives a UH nuts to think he's losing his wife. That she would find anyone but him to be with.
Keep the furniture too. LOL Or it it's a trigger, sell the stuff. Be sure that house is all yours prior to selling, Get him to sign a quit claim deed to you.
You may love him and be hurting now, but if you give him all the control, you'll never be happy and he'll never be faithful. They do it to us because they can, as Dr,Phil says.
I'd become so changed he wouldn't know me on the street! Join a book or poetry club. Get out and meet new people.
God bless you, LouLou

Hi LouLou:

I really appreciate your inspirational message. It means alot because I am really struggling with self-esteem issues, feeling rejected by WS for who I am. I realize now that I need to be accepted for who I am and cannot really change my basic personality to be different.

You see, I have her beat out in the looks department. I can't offer him the admiration that comes naturally with her youth. That is what he is searching for. Also, he stresses how he likes her ways and that she thinks they are "soulmates". I hate it that I am back comparing myself to her.

I just have to go ahead and grieve that the relationship that we once had is over. Unfortunately, this situation has made me loose the admiration and respect that I did have for him. I had regarded him as such a good, decent person and now he has chosen to be with a slease. I've been doing a lot of self-talk today, telling myself that he does not want me. That's what's keeping me from calling him.

I have a legal separation agreement in which he agreed to pay a large sum of alimony and child support. Therefore, I agreed to share half the equity on the house with him.

I'm trying to take it one hour at a time, one day at a time.

I'm beginning to rely more on my religious faith. Have to put my faith in God, not in man.

Any ideas on how best to come out victorious on the following interaction with WS which is leaving me FEELING BAD. I don't like allowing him to make me feel this way.

Yesterday, through cellphone messages, he agreed to HELP (?) me with trading in my car (which is in his name) to get a new car which will be in my name. I waited all day for a call as I really wanted to get this done ASAP. I called and left him a cellphone message about what is the status of car situation and I would be glad to handle it myself.

He responds vaguely saying "I have the guy working on your car" now. This means he probably did not proceed with doing anything today. He seemed pissed that I bothered him about it. He then says that he needs to arrange to get "some clothes" out of the house and maybe "some furniture". He put it like since I'm doing this for you, you need to do this for me.

I called him back (we're still leaving messages) and said that he needed to arrange an extended amount of time to get his stuff because I would like for him to get all of it at once since this whole process is so "painful" for me. I also asked him for more specifics regarding what he is doing about the car.

I don't like the way this feels. What's wrong with this picture? What should I be doing differently? What's going on?

Should I write him a PLAN B letter so I can become more detached or disengaged? Or am I still in PLAN A and should have been less demanding.

I also need to talk to him about getting a separate checking account. Does it seem like he is avoiding following through with the actual legal separation arrangements? Do we set up a meeting to talk about everything?

I'M CONFUSED!!!

bump^^

Love in Christ,
Miss M

HELP!!!!

IS there a reason why no one wants to help me? I'm feeling rejected by Marriage Builders.

Mimi

Loads of people have been helping you, but sometimes it is the wrong time of day, or there aren't many people around. Keep bumping up to get more ideas or input.

Now, what specifically is worrying you, the way he is behaving about the car and stuff? If you decided not to send a Plan B letter, but are just behaving in a Plan B way, you need to set some boundaries. So, it is not a trade off that he'll help you with the car and he wants "some" stuff. You seemed to say before that you wanted him to get everything. Did you tell him that? If so, then that is the deal.

It's hard yards, it really is, but you will be OK. Glad to hear you got some of the girls together, what else are you doing for you?

Lisa

Lisa,
I'm really struggling this morning. I made a decision last night that I had to accept the reality of this-that his heart does not belong to me. He had mentioned last night that he wanted to take the separation "slowly" and I told him that I can't do that-that we have to go ahead and make the break. I guess I was hoping that my statement to give up on him would make him MAGICALLY change his mind and say "I'm Sorry", this was a big mistake. Instead, this morning he agreed with my Plan to go along with the big break. He is eagerly setting up a plan to get all of his stuff to move into the condo.

Unlike other WSes that I'm reading about in this stage, my WS is being so nice and gracious now, sounding more like himself. His style is making me want him again. I think being nice is making him feel better about himself. It's like he has pity for me or something.

I don't know what to think or to do. I know that I am very sad and am feeling a huge sense of loss and rejection.

Is there anything I can do now to help make myself feel better? Would writing him a letter help? I think the best thing would be for me to finally realize that there is nothing that I really can do.

I want to call him and BEG him to come back to me. That's what I am struggling with right this minute.

MIMI,

About the checking account. If you aren't in an official plan B, things are pretty much up in the air regarding finances.

One thing you could do that would not be a LB is to leave the joint account alone for now and open another one in your name only. You could put the money that you need for bills, etc. in your own account to make sure that your finances are okay. Leave the other acct alone, don't put any more money into it. WS doesn't have to know that you have another account. Perhaps that will make you feel a bit more secure.

You do need to protect yourself while this is going on. If WS is feeling generous about car, go for it, but no pressure.

Do only what you need to do to protect yourself. Do what you need to do to take care of you. Just take care of MIMI right now.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Mimi

I am so sorry you are struggling today. I think you are right, your H can be gracious for any number of reasons, not least his poor behaviour, and of course it will make him feel better. He will be able to tell OW and anyone else that he did the right thing by you.

But Mimi, this isn't the right thing for you. This is very painful for you and understandably so. I think if you are aiming towards behaving in a Plan B way, a Plan B letter may well help you focus your mind. For me, I too didn't want to give up or accept that my H wouldn't even try. But let's look at your situation.

You have had a certain amount of success in Plan A - in fact perhaps that is why your H is being so nice, you were sure nice to him, he probably hopes this can continue on, because he is fence sitting/cake eating to a certain point. Plan B is because you can't take it anymore, you love is running out, you're going to start LBing, you need to work solely on you. Sometimes (I think in my case), it was also the adamant nature of my H that he did not want to work with me. It was too painful to me just being "friends", knowing his A was developing, but he wanted to keep me in the loop. That was another reason for me to go to Plan B.

I would suggest you write a Plan B letter - whether you send it or not is a different matter. It will clarify how you stand with your H - you love him very much and will happily work on your M once there is NC and he is ready to do that. However, until that time it is too painful to you to be in contact other than practicalities, (do you have children, but you know). I honestly believe that sometimes writing things down can be a great help.

Take care.

Lisa

Ooops double post!

[ May 14, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]

Wow so much of your post is ditto for me! I can't describe it!

Something that especially hit home was the part about him getting mad at you. I so want to be at the point where I don't give a hoot if he's mad or not! Your right, thats how they still control us and it really bugs me.

Don't rush your process. (You'll just end up going backwards)This is like when a smoker gets nagged by everyone that smoking is bad and they should quit. The smoker knows but nothing is going to work untill he is READY to quit.

Take one day at a time! Somedays you will feel really strong, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> others will be downright terrible <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ! But little by little you will find that you have more of the good ones and you are moving on! Live your life, hopefully someday he will want to catch up if you let him!

Go out and have fun. Movies, dinner with friends helps a lot, it gives you a new perpective. Warning though the first time will be strange, expect that. Second avoid places that will bring back fond memories.

Little by little, life will be easier! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks for responding LISA and CRUNCHIE!

I feel weird today because I know I'm in a different place than I have been before. It's hard to describe.

I feel like I did when my father died. However, the person that I am grieving for is still alive and breathing. I just can't get to him;can't reach him. Maybe I should express this in a letter to my WS. He knows how life-changing my father's death was to me.

I am actively grieving the loss of my H. I am acknowledging for the first time that he is no longer who he once was. I am acknowledging that he has shared and is sharing himself with someone else, an alien, a stranger, a woman who is foreign to me and the world that I live in. He seems drawn by that world and that part is scary. I may seem moralistic. I don't mean to be. I am trying to paint the picture here. She curses, drinks a lot, is not a Christian. I am the GOOD GIRL and she is the BAD GIRL. He has knowingly chosen the BAD GIRL and would probably admit this to you if you asked him. I cannot understand this. It seems irrational.

He continues to want to keep this secret. He does not want the banker or the car dealer to know that he is SEPARATED from me. He wants to continue to portray himself as an upstanding citizen. Should i spill the beans although he is HELPING ME get my finances in order, playacting like the dutiful spouse? This is crazy-making! I want to become financially independent from him.

Crunchie, you are right. I am not ready to give him up although it's what I need to do. I will take it one hr. at a time, remembering to ACCEPT THIS REALITY .

Lisa, at the same time, I will be working on my letter and focusing in on myself. I'm clear now, as you may can tell, that she and I are not comparable. I can never be anything like her or she like me.

I LIKE WHO I AM A LOT BETTER TODAY THAN I DID YESTERDAY BUT I AM HURTING MORE!!

Any comments are welcomed.

Mimi

Just a quick note because I am off to bed.

Oh dear, would you think badly of me because I swear a bit, drink and am not Christian <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm sure not, and you should not focus on me anymore that you should on OW. She is not worth your energy or attention.

It is interesting about whether to spill the beans or not. I think WAT did a series of threads on whether or not your should inform other people - including OP's spouse, family, work colleagues etc. I actually think that at this moment in time do what is best for you. So, if that means you make use of H to get your finances and stuff sorted out, well so be it. There is plenty of time for making other decisions when you have to. Take care of you right now by whatever means you have to.

Thinking of you and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

I think what makes it so difficult for us BS is that we do remember how close we once were. How intimate, the being ONE kind of thing and its that place of specialness that they've given to someone else.

I was telling my daughter what a special day it was when she was born. How nervous daddy was. And that got me to thinking-- we've shared the most special bond that any two human being can share "we created life together" and yet he can walk away! That hurst soooo much.

But I guess its like any loss we suffer, it gets easier to endure with each passing day!

You know whats scaring me? I'm not sure I want him back anymore!!!!I don't know? I mean its really not my decision right now but if he were to come back, I not sure that I'd be extatic!

Sorry! This is your post! But I guess sharing with each helps us to cope!

I really goofed!! I drove by his condo and her house and they both saw me.

This was supposed to happen. Too much of a coincidence.

I reached my bottom. This is it!!!

I must be loosing it.

Don't beat yourself up over it!

Just laugh at your "awesome" spying techniques <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
and move on!

And remember what you've been told, forget them. Worry about yourself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
I really goofed!! I drove by his condo and her house and they both saw me.

This was supposed to happen. Too much of a coincidence.

I reached my bottom. This is it!!!

I must be loosing it.<hr /></blockquote>No you are not loosing it...... be Wonder Woman.... let them wonder why ths woman is driving past those places (note I say places not homes or even houses). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now they have to keep watching out if you will be driving by again. Now how cozy do you think that will make them? Hm..... got some stories to share with you on that subject but that is also how I got them to LB each other for days to weeks on end without lifting a finger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

L.

Hi Mimi,
I am just getting back from vacation and am catching up on your thread. I am so sorry it has come to this, but it is still not hopeless. I would immediately move to Plan B and send him a Plan B letter THIS WEEK.

Seperate your finances, or make plans to, and include those details in your letter. Make arrangements in the letter for him to pick up his clothes and the condo furniture. I think Plan B has to be executed now because you have Plan Aed long enough for him to see your changes. Plan A has not, however, brought him out of this and has only enabled him to get his needs met by TWO women. He needs to see that the majority of his needs are met by you and he won't see that unless you stop doing it.

Also, your feelings for him are quickly going south right now, which will threaten any future chance of reconciliation. It will only get worse if you continue contact. The pressure of daily contact is taking a high toll on your nerves and your self esteem. It's time to detach and protect yourself, in my opinion, and start taking back control of your life. Please start working on your Plan B letter TODAY. Spacecase posted some wonderful examples so look for his thread on Plan B letters. Just please don't make it a sappy, romance novel and make us all gag, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hello to ALL and Melody it was so great to hear from you.

I wrote and delivered a LETTER last night. I'm not sure that it was a PLAN B letter, per se. I basically told my WS that I was going to have minimal contact with him until July 2nd. On that day he has agreed to take me for some cosmetic surgery which I'm sure he's eager for me to have. After losing 60 plus pounds, parts of my body are deformed. I'm doing this for me, not for him and was not planning to cancel it because of his plan to separate.

I'm feeling alot stronger after the letter. He called and THANKED me for it (ON VOICEMAIL). He also asked me to PRAY for him and suggested that he will eventually be able to do NC with OW after he "goes through this window" ?????? I'm feeling a lot stronger but he continues ,as indicated ,to try to reel me back in. I'm wondering what in the world he means.

I blew it today already. I had a flat tire and ended up calling him. I was just so pissed to have to deal with this crap all alone after depending on him my whole life to help me. He again graciously wanted to play the "husband" role and called the car dealership to get them to assist me.

I did GOOD though. I arranged to get my car serviced and picked it up before WS even called back to check on how things went. I guess he had to do whatever he had to do with OW in the middle of the day. He seemed confused (on the Voice Mail) about me not calling him back to let him know how things went with the car. I was a BIG GIRL and proceeded to take care of it all myself. He definitely does not believe that I will limit my contact with him.

I have yet to do anything about the condo furniture which he has not asked for again today. I like it that they do not have furniture over there.

[ May 15, 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hi Mimi,

I am not real familiar with Plan B so I am hoping some of the others will chime in here about the best way to proceed. But my understanding is that it's important to cut off ALL contact until his affair has ended. Did you tell him that in your letter? Here is an excerpt from Harley's article about Plan A and B [please go read the entire article, it's really good!] Do you have Surviving an Affair?

"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Mimi, since you are going to do an agreement on separation, do have your own bank acct!
If he is going to give you alimony and child support as you said, large sum, it should be in your name only! NO way do you put that in a joint acct.
As for the joint one, keep it but you do not add any monies to it that he gives you separately.
I think he will want to take you off his acct soon.
No matter, any monies agreed on for support is separate and should not be where he can access it!
Why did you agree to give him half equity in house? As for that, you should have it totally for you and the children. Then if you do divorce, you should get it and see for all the equity to you!
That's what my daughter did and just paid cash for her new home! NO payments.
Now, yes, you should sit and talk this out, but with a lawyer, to protect you! You're own lawyer he pays for though.
Do not trust a man who is sweet talking you, being nice while screwing around on you at the same time. NEVER Trust him!
What he has proven so far is he was lying to you all along about going NC.
Now he's trying to scam you to guard his assets and as-!
Take it from one old enough to have seen it all.
Let him pay and let him give up home entirely!
In most any court in the land, the wife with children gets the home as her separate proptery!
Plus alimony and child support. Plus, in some states if you've been married long enough, such as I have here, you get alimony for life even if you remarried. TEE HEE!
Don't his patsy. As for your confidence?
You got it, just dig in there and bring it out.
Get your cosmetic surgery, get a whole new look that will wow men on the street! Exercise to look your very best.
Toss out the old look and go chic! Sexy class. LOL
Get an update hairstyle if you don't now, learn the makeup tricks, and go for it!
You can make him drool every time he sees you, but don't give in!
Most men want what they can't have! it's the old chase and conquer!
When little miss dumb [censored] is avialable all the time and you aren't, I'd not be surprised to find him trying to sneak over to be with you. Dont allow!
Be mysterious about your new life and what you're doing. Don't be available everytime he calls. Get caller id and do not answer if it's him. OR have a teenager over to answer and say you're out for evening and she's babysitting. LOL
Oh, I forgot to see ages of your children.
So maybe you don't need babysitter. Just do not be around all the time.
Pretty soon, he'll be driving by our house to see where you are!
Never Grovel. Makes them feel so superior and in control. He now needs to know he's not in control of you anymore. He gave up that right.
God bless, LouLou

Lady Lou:
What am I missing in regards to him scamming me?

We already signed the legal separation agreement, using my lawyer. WS agreed to the ALIMONY FOR LIFE. There's not much equity in my house, huge home equity loan that I don't want responsibility for. My lawyer didn't push for me to get sole ownership of the house for some reason.

I will proceed with the separate checking account.

Thanks for your continued support.

You guys, I feel like I'm getting stronger and stronger each day and more and more pissed off!!

Mimi,
It sounds like you are on top of things and I do have to say that you sound so much calmer now. Now, if we can just get you to stop the drive bys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If I am not here, you can email me if you want at dana100@cablelynx.com.

What did you say in your Plan B letter? Hopefully, it left a good taste in his mouth but ended all contact.

Sorry Mimi, I haven't been checking in on the board so much.

I agree that there is no point to a Plan B letter if you will go back on it. If it boxes you in.

It sounds like you have protected yourself with the separation agreement. Put all the checks in an account in your name.

Do not discuss the furniture with him. IGNORE IT. Do not bring it up. IT IS HIS PROBLEM. However, if any of his stuff is in your way, put it in the basement until he picks it up.

WORK ON YOUR OWN INTERESTS, go out and do stuff. Make a point of being out on Saturday night. MAKE IT A RESOLUTION!

Limit your interactions with your H as much as possible. Stop talking to him. Leave him alone with his OW.

Either- they are soulmates and he is going to live happily ever after with her in which case you have to adapt and be strong and get over him in which case you might as well start the process now.

OR- he's gonna live with this OW for a couple of months and start to see her flaws and get sick of her. This will only happen if you ignore him and force him to rely on her completely.

Great job with the Plan A. As for the Plan B letter- actions speak louder than words. He knows you love him, he knows you are in pain and he knows that for your marriage to recover he has to break it off with OW.

Espoir:

You are MY soulmate. You seem to really understand me. I really appreciate your posts!

Oh Mimi - I've been off of MB for the last couple of days and just caught up on you. I wrote you a long message and then my %&*%*& connection cut off and I lost it all. So I'm going to try and briefly recommunicate some of it.

First I think Espoir in the last post was so clear. I am going to try and follow those words myself.

Secondly, my WH sounds so similar to yours at this point. He is willing to do anything for me except for GIVE UP THE OW! In some ways I feel like maybe he has met his "soul mate" and cannot give her up yet is trying to do the "right thing" in all other respects. Some people say - "well, let him cut the grass, wash your car, watch the kids, etc." but in some ways I feel like that would be letting him have his cake (be a family man) and eat it too (have OW). Plus it was too confusing to me. He would be at my house a lot and i would think - maybe he's given up OW - he hadn't.

I've been pushing, pushing, pushing my WH away and it feels wrong but the other way wasn't working either. In fact, I think I waited too long - I still long to save our family but cannot really see us being able to work this out in the long run now.

Similar to your, my WH didn't want anyone to know we had separated and would say things to the effect of "when this is over (meaning the affair)". He just recently removed his wedding band (at my request).

This is a very difficult position to be in because there is so much doubt and mixed messages. On one hand I see so many signs that my Wh wants to be home with us yet he still has OW. I've given up. Before you get to this point - go into a full-scale Plan B.

Espoir says,
Great job with the Plan A. As for the Plan B letter- actions speak louder than words. He knows you love him, he knows you are in pain and he knows that for your marriage to recover he has to break it off with OW.

This is true - he knows whhat it takes.

DIJ

Due Injan:

I do not know a lot about your situation. However, I would say DON'T GIVE UP. I read LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by Dobson again last night. You might want to read it. It is basically a PLAN B approach. My WH responded to it whenever I was able to uphold it.

I really see my WS' affair as being an addiction as suggested by the Harleys. Steve H. calls his OW a drug dealer. My WS has even said that he is "addicted" to her. I was told that when we let them cake-eat we are enabling the addiction, allowing them to continue without feeling the full negative effect. The goal is to detach from the triangle.

Plus, if my WS' OW is his soulmate, then I don't need to be with him. I'm convinced their relationship is unhealthy as much as I know about it. I think that's why he keeps coming back for a dose of reality.

I've done well today though. No Contact at all.
I still can't understand why he's not trying to get his clothes and the condo furniture. It's bizarre. I wonder if he bought another set of clothes.

Everyone says for me to focus on myself. It's become obvious to me now that I don't know how to do that. That's a major goal that I need to work towards.

Thanks to you all.

Mimi, doesnt' sound like you missed anything. I was just concerned about you as I know how our minds can be so scrambled through all this. Pardon the expression, but we do think with heart many times and not with our brain. LOL
I just want you to be protected as you can already see how he flounces back and forth, and when they're in a lying deceiving state,I would trust nothing!
In fact, I may not ever trust mine again even though he's with me. Even when the A is seemingly over, we still have to deal with the wondering if they're thinking of OP!
Stick with your plan! He's had it too good for too long.
LouLou

Dear Mimi -

I'm trying very hard to want to give up hope that me and WH will ever be back together. Everyone from my therapist (who had been our MC once the A was discovered) to my friends and coworkers have told me that it's time to move on. I've read Dobson's book several times and have instituted the LMBT method to a fairly large degree - it's a little bit more workable than a true Plan B for me since I do have contact with WH re. the children. Problem is, it doesn't seem to be working. He's still with OW.

Right now I'm sitting in my house (I refinanced it in my name only). My 3 YO and 4 mth old children are sleeping. I've been doing laundry, trying to clean the house, take care of the baby and entertain the tot. It is a gray day and I can't even get out to go to the grocery store or running. I haven't been able to really get exercising again since I had the baby.

Meanwhile my WH is on a biking/canoeing weekend with a group of people including OW and their new friends (people that don't know the history of their relationship). IT MAKES ME SO ANGRY THAT I WANT TO SCREAM AND CALL HIS CELL PHONE AND HURL OBSCENTIES AT HIM AND CALL HIS OW A W^*%$. We used to do a lot of outdoorsy stuff but was limited once our first child was born - now he is able to go and do exactly what he wants and I'm stuck inside with children, chores and no company <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> If I complain, WH offers to take the children - but then he has OW with him to help. I hate when my 3 YO is around her and I can't stand the thought of her holding my infant and the 4 of them going out pretending to be a family - It's MY family. I'm so stuck that I can't stand it! Sorry for jumping in on your post - but I get going and can't stop. I'm so sad.

Duejan:
I very sad and weepy today, too. This is true although I did all of the RIGHT things. I went to the movies with my mother and sister and saw ANGER MANAGEMENT. It ended up being a love story so in the end all I could think about is how my WS is in love with the OW and probably romancing with her. I'm feeling so rejected like he chose her over me. A large part of me knows that I have more to offer but it's hard to feel that way today.

I also opened a separate banking account which is what I needed to do but it is so HARD.

I guess I'm trying to face the reality of this after being in DENIAL over the past few months that he would really do this. I keep waiting for him to call me and say that this was all a big mistake. MAGICAL THINKING!!! It feels just like grieving a death-just like I felt when my father died, except my WS continues to live and breathe.

I'm trying not to call him, knowing that he has to eventually call me about his condo furniture and clothes. I still can't help but wonder what is going on with that. You know, I'm fantasizing that he is thinking about changing his mind.

I'm going to go bag up some more of his clothes.

Let's keep in touch.

Hi Mimi.

A better day today for me - I hope for you too. Yes, stay away from any romance movies. They're killer. I can't stand to listen to most of the songs on the radio either. One of the times that my WH came home and we would be in the car together and a song would come on and he would have a very strong reaction to it. One in particular goes..."she broke my heart, my grace is gone, one more drink and I'll move on" He was thinking about OW...in some ways having him gone is so much easier. I don't have to deal with the constant pain and humilation of living with someone who is longing for another person. I will never do that again. If he is to ever come back it will be after he has dealt with the ending of the relationship with OW. Living with him when he was longing for OW made me feel like total hell. Much worse than living alone with the kids. I've gained some sense of self during this modified plan-B - something that had been kicked to the curb once the A started.

You know, you're one of the few MBers that I've seen that has an obession with the OW and spying issues that even come close to mine. Everyone else always seems so sensible (i.e. "don't waste your time thinking about them, etc.") I am hugely curious, but have felt better after returning the apartment key and stopped spying. Here's the thing...both of our WH's haven't behaved in totally typical fashion. Both have indicated (in words - not action) that they still want us, love us, this is a temporary thing, etc. My WH is practically living with OW and will deny to me that they have a relationship. I think that my spying was a way for me to constantly confirm what my WH was denying.

My WH's OW is attractive, a few years younger than me, very thin (but hey, I just had a baby), BUT she also has depression issues, takes sleeping pills, is very needy, etc. I think it's the neediness factor that sucks men in. But can relationships survive like this? I think my WH feels very manly with her - he's calling the shots.

Didn't mean to get off on a tangent. I hope you're doing better. Keep up the Plan B. I've felt much better since I've started (my modified version). I too have gone through the --- Maybe today he's missing me and will realize what a mistake he's made. It's probably going to happen when you least expect it and maybe don't want it anymore.

Write and let me know how you're doing. Don't call about the furniture etc. In a moment of anger last week I called my WH and said "while I'm gone I'd like to clean your things out of the garage and leave me your garage door opener. He agreed and did it. Now the garage looks lonely and sad without his tools that are now housed at OW's. Wish I hadn't done it.

Help! I goofed. It was an unsuccessful PLAN B attempt. Last night was unbearable. I just had to talk to my WS today. I was so depressed and did not see how I was going to make it.

He responded positively to my call and came quickly over. Yes, you know what- with protection. SF is one of the needs I do well with-has never been a problem. He said as expected, just like before. He wants to work on getting back together if I continue to change. He missed me over the weekend. He now knows he cares, couldn't get me out of his mind although he tried. We talked sincerely for hours.

Do I continue with PLAN B? Do I do some sort of PLAN A? He definitely is conflicted. He is mainly is afraid that there is no future with me, that my changes will not last. How do I show him if I only do PLAN B? He definitely knows he misses me with no contact. However, he will only remember the negative aspects of our relationship and get settled in the condo. He is perfectly willing to continue contact as before. The difference now is that I am protected legally and he is complying with that.

Opinions?

[ May 19, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I've decided to continue to focus on my personal recovery, MY PLAN. It does seem to be working at least for me.

The problem is my continued LONGING for my wayward spouse. I am definitely grieving just like when my father died. The feelings and bodily sensations are exactly the same. The problem is that my WS is still alive and when I call him he comes to me, well physically. I don't really have his HEART. My problem as compared to some others here is that I have been with him 30 years and my personal identity is so linked up with his. I need to get a sense of who I am.

HELP!!!!

Mimi,

I come to your posts a little late. As you stated on Marathonman's thread, you have read my situation. From everything I have read here, it sounds as if your husband is being affected by Plan B very well. Okay, you slipped up and had SF! Probably was good for both of you!

In the big picture, it probably wont hurt. It will continue him longing for you. Stay in Plan B until he meets the conditions of your Plan B NC. You know he is still interested by his response and him coming over. Now, let him stew in that. If my hunches are right, he is missing you as much as you miss him. The "pain" is increasing for him. But, he has to get to the point where he knows that it is he who keeps himself in that pain...and there is a way out.

So, as JustLearning always tells me...steady as she goes.

In His arms.

Mortarman:
Thanks for your response. I'm looking forward to your topic regarding the religious aspects of coping with this experience.

Everyone:
What do you think I should do about my WS' condo furniture and clothes that are still at the house. He came on Tuesday with a friend who has a truck but only got a few pieces of furniture. Nothing major. Only two chairs. I guess so they'll have somewhere to sit.

Then he calls last night, leaving Voice Message, I'm not answering, stating "I'm too tired to move anything tonight", meaning that he is entertaining the OW. You see, I don't want to be connected or involved in their activities anymore.

However, it evidently "pained" him to move the furniture. Called back crying in the car saying "I'm sorry".

Also he's working on getting a car for my teenage son and that is dragging on and on. He has stated that he wants to take the separation process slow. I've had my son to deal with him about the car. However, this whole scenario reminds me that we are not his priority and he has basically abandoned us. I've never purchased a car on my own !!

Cut these apron strings or keep some dangling? It seems like a real balancing act.

Called to say, "not moving again tonight".

I called him back to say that "I don't like this continued contact. It hurts me too much to continue to talk to you while you are with her." He says; "I've got to be through with her"; I've got to see this through". Does that mean he's waiting for her to break up with him? I said, unfortunately, "I hope I'm still here". He sounded bothered by this statement. Maybe angry. I don't know. He says that he will be moved out by "this weekend". Well, tomorrow is Friday.

Another thing:
Do any of you do obsessive checking to find out where they are and if they are together? I'm talking about my drivebys. I realize that this is the only behavior that relieves my despair. It's obsessive-compulsive and I can't stop myself. I'm wanting to drive by her house right now which is why I'm writing this post.

If any of you have this problem, let me know your solutions. I want to stop this.

Wow mimi, you have been thru so much in the last year!! I can understand the drive-by's, I can be fairly obsessive myself sometimes. Don't beat yourself up for doing very human things. You are being pushed to your very limit right now.

Your H is afraid you will go back to your old self and is also probably afraid you will hold resentment for the A. More than likely he finds the OW to be a self esteem boost. Don't be so sure that won't wear off in time. I know you are afraid he may to like it too much. If that is the case there is nothing you can do to stop it from happening. All you will do is make yourself miserable in the process.

If you think about it the OW must be getting tired of him going back and forth too. She also must live in constant fear of him going back, and probably sweats him on it quiet frequently. The more she love busts, the better for you.

I hope you can pull together the strength to not drive by!!!

I reread the replies to my topic and realized that I have not been listening well or following directions.

I'm onward with my PLAN B although the weekends are tough.

I can't help but wonder what they are doing. I thought the A would not be up in my face during PLAN B. It seems to me that my obsessiveness is getting worse but I going to try to fight it.

I'm telling myself that they are really getting to know each other now so I need to leave them alone. I'm also telling myself that I don't want someone that wants such a piece of trash.

However, I thought that PLAN B was supposed to maintain my love for him. The more I stay away, I'm angrier at him and resent him more. Some confusion here on whether this is the right approach for me right now.

Help!!

Mimi,

Well, things seem to be going right on schedule for you. Personally, unless something major changes things, I really think you are at the beginning of the end. Your WH is becoming VERY uncomfortable sitting on that picket fence with his cake. He has the OW pullinh on him to come her way, and now he looks on your side of the fence and sees...you pulling away. He is not comfortable, nor happy. Let me take on your last post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I reread the replies to my topic and realized that I have not been listening well or following directions.<hr /></blockquote>Well, you wouldnt be the first betrayed spouse to do this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... I know I continued to bang my head on the wall until I got it (I STILL have my moments!).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm onward with my PLAN B although the weekends are tough.<hr /></blockquote>Find more stuff to do on the weekends. Fill you schedule right now That way, even when he first tries to cross the gap, he will see you have a life...making him even more uncomfortable. Added to this, you will be much more happy, because you wont be concentrating on this crap

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I can't help but wonder what they are doing. I thought the A would not be up in my face during PLAN B. It seems to me that my obsessiveness is getting worse but I going to try to fight it.<hr /></blockquote>You know what? Go ahead and feed the drive by. I found it very soothing in Plan B. when I didnt find him at her apartment, I was relieved and could sleep better. When I did, it helped me harness my anger to get doubly behind my Plan B. So, dont get caught...and try not to spen all your time tailing them. But a little driveby every so often, I found, actually helped my sanity during Plan B.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm telling myself that they are really getting to know each other now so I need to leave them alone. I'm also telling myself that I don't want someone that wants such a piece of trash.<hr /></blockquote>All true. Just let them have each other now. To get what they thought they wanted. But in reality, they will get what they DESERVED! And your WH will wake up saying exactly what mine did one month into Plan B..."What am I doing?"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, I thought that PLAN B was supposed to maintain my love for him. The more I stay away, I'm angrier at him and resent him more. Some confusion here on whether this is the right approach for me right now. Help!!<hr /></blockquote>Oh yeah...Plan B is for you. Look, I thought my love was leaving also, and was very surprised that I had any at all, and how fast it came back, when my wife first approached me about reconciliation. I think the "saving" of love for your husband also has to do with locking that love away and protecting you from it Right now, that love causes you pain. In Plan B, your mind locks that love away behind boundaries you now set-up. It isnt gone...but it is gone from your everyday thoughts and actions. Now, the longer Plan B goes on, the more likely that emotionally, those boundaries keep getting thicker until you will nolonger be able to get back that love...and then you will be ready for divorce. But until then, it allows you to begin to get your life together. Life ready for your husband's return (you see, the aliens are probably going to let him go soon, and you want the house and kids, and his wife ready for his return). Or life ready for post-divorce, where you are ready to offer yourself, and someone else, the best possible Mimi.

I dont think you need help here Mimi, except some encouragement. So, here it is. Read all of my threads. Watch how it progressed. In hindsight, I can see the conflict and the success of Plan B. I see it happening with your WH. Try to enjoy this time...because you may never be alone again. enjoy watching your husband flop like a fish out of water, as he "pays" for his fantasy. And it wont be vengeance on your part. Just him getting his just rewards for his actions.

As that happens, he'll show you he is serious about getting his life back. Then, if that love is still not too far gone, you will be able to lead him the rest of the way home.

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Thanks for helping me stay strong. Just had to talk to him on the phone a few minutes ago about some financial matters. He sounded sad and I felt sorry for him about what I had to do, that is, to stop the direct deposit of my check into the joint account we had. It killed me to tell him. I told him that "this was his choice; I do not want any of my money to be used on her". I was waiting as usual for him to say, OK, I've changed my mind then. He just says "I UNDERSTAND". That's his favorite phrase now in response to my boundary setting. He talks so sweetly to me now, sounding like himself. I'm trying not to get sucked in !!!!

I am so THANKFUL to know that I am not the only person that has done drivebys. I've been thinking that I am crazy. You're right. I have to make sure that I am slick about it.

Leaning on His Everlasting Arms
Safe and Secure from ALL Alarms
---one of my favorite hymns

Mimi,

Have you done a background check on the OW? If she has a questionable background, it may be a guage as to how much protective action you need to take BEFORE something happens.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid:

I did do a background check and found nothing. However, she is a piece of work. She's been married twice although she's only 33. Last boyfriend was one she visited in jail.

What do you think that might happen that I need to be concerned about?

Hi Mimi. I hope you have some things planned for the weekend. I agree weekends are tough. I'll log in to see if you're around. With regard to your direct deposit and his reponding "I understand," my WH does the same thing. I kept shutting him out in a number of ways (refinancing the house, getting a separation argreement, etc.) and I kept hoping it would shake him up and he would realize that I was serious. Instead, he would look and act very sad and would say "I understand." If they (WHs) are so daggone sad about the whole thing why don't they stop it? I think maybe they're just sad that they can't have both anymore.

Keep up the good Plan B -- in the last couple of weeks my WH has asked "would you even want me back?" and sent me flowers to work on our anniversary and for mother's day. He went to our former marriage counselor for counseling but she won't take him for a client because she sees me from time-to-time. He's clearly uncomfortable - but I'm going to keep him out there with OW. I let him back before (he's not really asking to come back) and it didn't work out.

The whole point to this is --- keep up your Plan B. It's better for you - you won't have to be involved with who he's seeing when and with what furniture. And you might start seeing some results...

DIJ

After all this time, I still can't believe that he is more interested in being with her than me. I just can't believe it!

Mimi,

I posted to you on my "To Cerri" thread.

Keep your spirit strong, gal. Start reaching out to others to support them. It has really helped me get some of the focus off my own pain. Makes me feel like I am making a contribution and reaching out with love. Helps to be giving, like I was when my H is home. We all need to be able to nurture.

I too will look for you this weekend. Like you, no big plans. Too many people going out of town!

ISG

WH is calling me to assist in buying son's car. I'm trying to keep the conversation focused on that. Of course the cake-eater is wanting more. I'm trying not to get caught up based on the contact. For instance, he says, "keep your cell on , I'll call you midday". That is supposed to be to see how my son likes the different cars. However, that sounds like he wants to sneak in the call so that she doesn't know about it. I'm in his world again.

Still no mention of the furniture. I'm just going to let that go for now.

Hope everyone out there is fine. Keep checking in if and when you can.

Mimi, you said H came over with protection and SF.
I dont' know if others will agree with me,but no SF while he's with OW!
If he can have both, why should he give one up?
Be nice, be civil, but tell him you just can't share this intimacy with another woman!
That since he has her he can get it all there.
I just dont' agree with allowing the UH to have sex with you anytime he wishes. Cut him off for sure!
You know, absence does make the heart grow fonder. And when he's no longer able to just waltz in and have SF with you, he might start to tire of OW!
Tell him it's his when he gives up OW and only then. If not, then you are no available since he's not monogamous!
You're agreement in marriage vows was to keep thee only unto you!
LouLou

You're right, LouLou!

The SF was a big mistake, done in a weak moment.

I don't plan to do it again. At least, we have great memories of the last time.

I'm real sad today as usual on the weekends. It's hard having to buy this car for my son on my own and I've never bought a car before. I should think of this as a learning experience. I should not have been as dependent as I am on my WS.

That's why I wonder about PLAN B. This makes me more pissed off at him.

Hi mimi
If you are still here we can chat @

http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

Waiting for u

He calls this evening to find out "the status" of the car after I had spent all day working on the deal while he's been out playing.

I blast him, stating that I am clearly not his first priority. "I understand", he says. That's very clear to me, I am right, I say. He says, "I guess". I am getting so pissed at him.

Then he BEGS me to allow him to come by tomorrow to pick up his mail. I give in. Why does he need or want to come by? I need to put my foot down don't I and stop this contact. I can't seem to do it. It does feel good to talk to him but I am still getting the crumbs.

[ May 24, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

You poor thing! You have got to initiate Plan B. Look what you are doing to yourself! You say it feels good to see him, to talk to him, but you're creating agony each time you do it.

Please protect yourself from this constant hurt. Do a great, loving Plan B letter and give it to him when he comes by to get the mail. Accept no calls from him until he is ready to discuss reconciliation.

You have to do this for you! Just read over your thread and see the pain you are experiencing.

The time that I have been on Plan B has been painful, but it is more like a dull ache, compared to the searing pain of living with my H and waiting for the crumbs, waiting to feel loved, needed, appreciated, etc.

We're all here for you, to support you.

{{{{Mimi}}}}}}

IMHO, if he calls to ask about the car.... simple straight answer: I already took care of it.

Hurts some men's ego big time to know their wife has takes care of a 'manly' purchase like buying a car. If that is true in your case, use this to your advantage.

Is this an LB? Not if you are in plan B or headed that way.

IMHO,
L.

IS:

I'm not sure how to get the emotional strength to do a rigid PLAN B. I've really been trying!!! My despair over not seeing and/or talking to my WS becomes unbearable. That's when I do my drivebys. I controlled myself from going by his condo today.

However,I have been different with him. He has noticed. No begging or pleading. TRYING TO establish boundaries. For example, today I turned my cell off so he could not reach me. Also I went ahead and bought the car without checking with him like he really wanted me to. He couldn't believe that I got the car in my name. I have never purchased a car on my own ever in my life. I am proud of myself. He asked to speak to the business manager of the dealership (his friend), he was able to find me there by calling on my son's cellphone. The manager told him about my excellent credit ratiing, etc.

I certainly will not do the dating or the SF again with him although I am having big-time fantasies.

I'm going to stay on MB so you guys can keep me on track. Last time I backed off and got into his world.

I'm in trouble! You see, I'm honestly happy at the thought of seeing him tomorrow. It's been almost two weeks since we've seen each other face to face.

I'm working towards the PLAN B. When I really do it, I don't want to back down.I know that PLAN B is the best course for me because my WS definitely wants us both. Now it's her turn. She's trying to watch him like a hawk, afraid he'll slip off from her again. He was with me for 3 weeks last time. This is sick. I'm not planning to take him back for him to leave me again. That's for sure. He will have to work hard at any reconciliation and have definite plans of how NC forever would be maintained.

[ May 24, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Orchid:

By the way, admiration, pumping up EGO ,is the major need OW meets and I don't. He's testing this, I know. So what was the best thing to do. I'm still caught in my PLAN A.

It's the low self-esteem. It's so illogical. Being in an A, unable to assume responsibility for directly assisting in buying a car for your son, lowers one's self-esteem.

[ May 24, 2003, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi -

I agree the others - get into Plan B as soon as possible --- it helps with the agony. I'm an example of what happens when you slip out of Plan B. Too much contact with WH last week -- angry discussion about the children's weekend schedules -- I took the flowers that he sent me for our anniversary and smashed them on OW's front porch including glass vase and the note that said "Love, WH". I had moment of satisfaction but have taken many steps back in doing this. Get into Plan B and try to just focus on you, you, you. I know it's hard.

DIJ

Mimi, sorry, but having two women meet his needs and pumping his ego should be finished!
HE should already know what you can do. Flat out telling him you are not in the mood to meet his needs as long as he's getting it elsewhere is a start.
And flat out ask why he's saying he wants to break with OW but can't? Is she by chance pregnant?
I think cutting your presence entirely out of his life will go a lot further than groveling.
Men usually want what they can't have. You've been too available and enabling him to have it all his way for too long.
Stop the enabling. I know it's hard to do, but necessary.
I'd be civil, but appear to be enjoying my life immensly without him. No appearances of mourning for him or gleeful to see him.
Let him think your happiness is not dependent on his presence!
LEN

AND P.S. The mail runs both ways. Tell him you're going to mail all his mail to him so NC.
Where would he like it sent? Done.
LEN

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!

Mimi, you have to get tough. This is the only way anything good will come of this - whether it is a new beginning for your relationship with your WH or a new life for you.

The first few days will be miserable, perhaps the first several weeks. I admit I still am waiting, day by day, for my WH to get in touch with me and say he is "ready." But meanwhile, you will find that life goes on. Go shopping, rent some movies he would hate to watch. Pamper yourself with bubble baths and candles.

One of the most important things I read on this forum recently: above all, enjoy the time by yourself. If your marriage works, you will never have that opportunity again - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Remember, you are not alone. Thank God for this board. When your best friend isn't available to confide in, or better still, when your best friend can't give you advice because she (luckily) isn't in your shoes, remember, we are here!

Now take a deep breath, write the letter and tell him you'll forward his mail!

LouLou, how right you are!!

OK OK I'm getting ready to write another PLAN B letter based on current events.

Also, do I write a note to her as I've noticed some others have done.

However, I have a couple of questions:

Is this what I should do even though my feelings for him have not really changed yet? I know I'm in danger of this occurring.

What about him not getting the condo furniture? Is something going on with them that I need to consider before delivering the letter?

How do I know that I'm finished perfecting my PLAN A? There are a couple of important changes that I have not been successful in making. Of course, the ADMIRATION problem is one.

I'm still on the fence.

I went to church today and got a lot of support from my church family. It was a coming out for me as I had isolated myself and now am basking in the love I received there.

Hope some of you will respond soon.

Thanks.

[ May 25, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Do you have a prayer partner at church? Someone you can contact before you do anything dumb, like, drive-by? Like a sponsor?

Mr. Pepper is in AA. His sponsor is ready, willing, and able to "be there" for him ... in his hour of need.

You need a sponsor Mimi.

"I'm still on the fence." .... about what?

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ May 25, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

On the fence about delivering this PLAN B letter tonight. However, I'm busy writing it.

Do I send a note to her?

"Do I send a note to her?" .... depends .... got any Anthrax?

JUST KIDDING

Mimi, will the note say something like this....

"Miss,

I will no longer be a part of a love triangle. perhaps you don't mind WS spending time in both our beds, but I do."

Mimi, I'm not suggesting you send what i wrote, but, are you going to let her know he's been 2-timing her?

Pep

Pepper:

Do you think I should tell her? Some others on here suggested that I not tell her. I know that she hates the idea that I won't go away. In her previous conquests, she has driven the wife away.

Mimi,

Are you going to post your letter here for the experts to take a look at (I don't consider myself one, but I have read their input elsewhere and it was real helpful)?

I did not write to the OW. In Surviving An Affair, one of the cases they report on did have the BS sending a copy of the Plan B letter to the OM. The BH added a note at the bottom of the copy to the OM:

I love Sue with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for her to give me that chance.

So it is your call, but if you do send one to her, remember your H will probably see it 'cause she will share it with him. Avoid any nasty comments or judgements or anything that will reflect poorly on you. Hold your head high, sound like the loving wife that you are, and do nothing that would make your H feel he's better off with her.

Good luck!

And by the way, you will make it through this, hard as it seems.

I know, because today, you see, is my anniversary and I was hoping beyond hope that this date would make my WH decide he was ready to come back and work on the M, but no contact from him at all.

It has been a real rough day, but I tried to entertain myself and do nice things for me. Yes, I got teary a couple of times - including now, while I write this - but I keep saying, "God, if he isn't ready yet, please don't send him back to me." So I guess I have my answer.

Keep the Faith!

Mimi,

If you search Spacecase's posts, you will see a thread with some good Plan B letters. The important thing is to say you are cutting off contact and MEAN it. The worst thing you can do is deliver the letter and then not follow through.I think it's vitally important right now that he understand you are probably not going to sit by the phone and wait for him, but are going on with your life. Good luck and keep us posted!

I wrote the letter. I think it will suffice. I don't think the finesse of the writing will much matter as long as I stick to my guns. He'll get the message. I said what I needed to say.

Once I make up my mind about something, there's no turning back. He knows that. Did that with cigarette smoking 10 years ago and my weight loss. He knows I'm like that. Once he tests me and gets the message, he will know I'm serious.

I think getting the support of all the church members was the turning point. I am realizing how disrespectful to me he has been and how crazy his alien world is. We'll see what happens.

Mimi

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You go, girl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good for you. You found your strength. I knew you would.

I understand. I did the same thing with cigarettes in the '80's.

Congratulations and remember to keep your spirit strong and remember that everyone is here for you. Feeling weak? Post here and let us give you strength!

Good girl, Mimi!

Respect is the centerpiece to real marriage recovery. Without that .... you'll have emotional chaos.

Say what you mean, and don't make yourself into a liar by backing down.

Pep

Go Mimi!

I know how hard it is to stay away from the one you most want to be with!

Hugs and Hope, Honey

Hi to You ALL:

I am not backing down! I've decided that this crap can't continue.

Thanks for your continued support.

Keep checking in on me. I might be calling URGENT HELP NEEDED! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks

Mimi,

We will be here for you. Don't worry.

Hugs to you. I know how you feel today. Expect highs and lows...anger, loneliness, sadness, you name it.

Been there. It will get better.

The absolute worse so far was seeing couples together at Super Walmart yesterday. I had to shop but hated it, felt weepy the entire time. However, I did buy some flowers and potted them in a pretty container to go in my driveway. I also lighted candles throughout my house. That's always been one of my things. Domestic Tranquility is one of the ENs I know that WS is missing. I decided to return to "Living a Beautiful Life".

I also got up with a couple of more friends, calling in the troops. Plan to go out to dinner with one of them on Thursday. I had really been isolating myself. Even though he is still hiding out with the OW, I've decided to come out of the closet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Nothing for me to be ashamed about.

No response from WS to the PLAN B letter although he has to figure out a way to get his condo furniture without talking to me. That's his problem. I like the furniture.

[ May 27, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I love what you are doing. You now see the end in sight. Of course, you are not quite sure what that end is going to look like. It was my church family, as well as getting my second wind, that helped push me into a position of strength. Once that happened, my wife also began to understand that I was serious.

It was at that point this last December, that I went straight to Plan B. I was ready. I think your WH is about to feel like his life is passing him by. Be ready. If I were to make a bet, I would say your husband may be closer than we all think to showing up, ready for reconciliation.

Stick to your guns. Trust God.

In His arms.

Hi Mimi,

WOW! Do I understand what you are going thru! But good for you. Yes, we seem to focus on the "happy couples" but remember, that is our perception. We have no idea what their lives are really like, do we?

Good for you with the candles. It is one of my "things" too. Sunday was my wedding anniversary - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> - but I decided to treat myself right...candles throughout the house, a glass of wine, bubble bath, wonderful smelling lotion afterward, soft music. My time. It was still a lonely day, but pampering myself felt good - really good.

Glad you are moving forward with friends. I did the same thing, and it really helped. Not all will be equally supportive, but remember this board. We are the only ones who truly (sadly) understand.

Take care.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
The absolute worse so far was seeing couples together at Super Walmart yesterday. .<hr /></blockquote>Isn't it funny how you suddenly notice little things like for the first time? I used to NEVER go anywhere with my last H and when he left all of a sudden I was surprised to notice all the couples out and about! What a strange phenomenom it was!

Anyway, I think its great that you are trying to occupy your mind. Are you still working out? I think that was my GREATEST escape. I bought the toughest video tapes I could find and equipped my computer room with dumbbells and barbells and lost myself in workouts every night. It was a blissful escape where I didn't have to think for an hour.

I have felt good all day today. The biggest bummer was learning that he may have cancelled the gym membership for BOTH OF US without telling me That was a mean thing to do if he did. For some reason, I didn't get very upset. I just calmly told them to re-open the membership. Remember that's what we always used to do together. I'm still working out every day though although that time brings back memories of our time together.

Logistics question:

WS has closed off all communications today -turned his voicemail off so that I can't leave him a message. Reminds me of before D-Day when he would be AWOL. There are some financial matters I need to settle with him and need to tell him about some events regarding our son.

I wonder if this is a test to see if I will make great efforts to talk to him? There has been absolutely no response to the PLAN B letter except that. In the letter, I asked to communicate via the voicemail. It could have something to do with OW too. She is really controlling and paranoid about his voicemail messages. I really need to settle these matters with him ASAP. Should I E-Mail him? If I do, should I mention my concern about him shutting off his voicemail or should I just discuss the information.

Whew! It's always something.

I forgot to tell you guys this. Along with the condo furniture, 90% of my WS' clothes are still here. His drawers and closet are full. Did he buy a whole new wardrobe? What is it with him?

[ May 27, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

It's a test and possibly retaliation. If you can put off contacting him re these matters, do so. Let him be the one to crack.

Otherwise e-mail him and only mention the matters you need to discuss. Don't mention the voice mail. However best would be not to contact him. Can you let it go a week before discussing these issues?

Should I E-Mail him? If I do, should I mention my concern about him shutting off his voicemail or should I just discuss the information.
???

What’s wrong with this picture?

You send a letter saying you want no contact. He doesn’t contact you and you want to contact him to see why he isn’t contacting you.

Chris:

Even though I said No Contact, we have to communicate. We have a son together who has an awards ceremony on Monday and needs a ride to a college camp. Also there are important financial matters that have to be completed. I need some money to pay some bills. I will E-Mail.

Thanks Espoir. Why retaliation? He's the one that made this choice.

I realize what is going on. Any suggestions?

WS is realizing how much he depended on me to manage our finances and business matters. I wrote all the checks during our marriage.

He is putting off/avoiding/resisting taking care of these matters on his own. He wants to continue to rely on me although he chose to separate. If I don't take care of things, though, important things won't be done. For example, car payments are through online banking which I set up on our joint checking account. He asked could the online banking continue for his car payment, he says, "Until I decide what I'm going to do". I did not want to have a lot of discussion with him about what this meant. Just wanted to focus on specific issues rather than his general avoidance of actually doing a financial separation. He has not gotten a separate checking account.

He did immediately respond to my E-Mail, answering each item.

OW can't fulfill this need. He just wants her for PLAY. He still is trying to get me to do the WORK of marriage. These things need to be done but I can't make him step up to the plate or can I? It's like I'm still managing everything , including getting my son to camp.

I'm confused.

[ May 28, 2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

From your 3rd post on this topic.

My concern about PLAN B is not being able to stick with it.
Exactly what I see happening.

Don't find/make excuses to have contact. When there is contact, KEEP IT TO THE SHORT & TO THE POINT!

These things need to be done but I can't make him step up to the plate or can I? It's like I'm still managing everything , including getting my son to camp.
He will let you do it as long as you continue to do it.

[ May 28, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

It's hard to stop doing something that you've done for most of your life. That's what sucks about all of this. I don't know the answer. I'm trying!!!!!

I have made the conversations short and abrupt. However, I'm real anxious about my finances. I'm scared that he will let things go. He'll probably manage things better than I think he will. Yes, a codependent, enabler. I'm working on it.

I'm mad at myself that I did not have all these loose ends tied up before moving to PLAN B.

[ May 28, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

That is why they stress to know the REAL CONCEPTS of Plan B before going into it. It is not a tool to be used when you are upset, thinking well "PLAN B WILL SHOW HIM THAT I MEAN BUSINESS"!
Plan B is hard, but if you were not ready or aware of some the responsibilities that you would have to figure out for yourself without your WS's help or If you were not aware that your WS would react in some way (by cutting off vm) then maybe you are not ready to do a real Plan B and you should rethink it.
There is no room for fear when it comes to a TRUE PLAN B. You either do it or you don't. The WS will never take anything you say seriously again that is why PLAN must be adherred to.

It's hard to stop doing something that you've done for most of your life. That's what sucks about all of this. I don't know the answer. I'm trying!!!!!
Keep on trying and then do it! If you have contact, stop & think what it was about and consider if it was really necessary.

However, I'm real anxious about my finances. I'm scared that he will let things go.
Assume he will. Time to get a job & start your own finances. Keep a log of all the bills you pay with what money (yours/his/both.)

I'm mad at myself that I did not have all these loose ends tied up before moving to PLAN B.
So now you are here (Plan B) it's time to tie up them loose ends (no, not around his neck either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

[ May 28, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Mimi,

Let's look at the other side of this. It might be GOOD that you have these loose ends to tie up. Why do I say this? Let's look at this.

You are in Plan B now. He may think you are not serious, but may wonder what you are up to. look at my post with ALost Soul today. I think that Plan B is for getting you ready for either your husband's return or a new life without him. So...start getting on with your life. Start tying up the loose ends. do it on your own. Dont tell him...just do it. Start a new account at a new bank. Move your electronic payments to the new account. Anything that is his, begin to shut that down. tell him before hand in an email or letter. "H, I have made the car payment on your car this month. That account is now being closed. You will need to find other arrangements for next month for payment of your car. Mimi."

Begin to start separating things Now, what will this do? several things actually. As you know, this is not a game. But there are rules. You are in Plan B and finally getting on with your life. If your husband is never going to return, it is time you start getting things ready for your new life. If he is, it is time you stop enabling him. I started doing this to my wife when I got in Plan B. I shut off the car insurance on our cars, and got new insurance just on my car. She was forced to go get her own insurance.

Now, besides the pain of having to do all ofthis to them, what else will be done here? They will begin to see that you are moving on with your life. You are serious about NC. You are serious about moving forward. This will force them off the fence. If he still loves you, he will begin to panic that he is losing you. He wont hear from you because you are in Plan B. He will only see your actions. And they will be slowly turning out the lights on the marriage. If it is still in him, he will come looking for you before it is too late.

So, I see these loose ends as good. Take your time. Begin to shut things down a little every week. As each tie is broken, you will begin to feel stronger. If he comes back, you will feel more in control of yourself in the reconciliation. If he doesnt, then Plan B will lead you to the eventuality of no love for him...and then you can begin your new life.

I still bet that your hubby will be like my wife. When Plan B is fully NC, and he sees you beginning to turn out the lights, I believe it will cause the fog to begin to dissipate. tne we will see what kind of man he is.

In His arms.

Something about this thread is bothering me and making me want to stop PLAN B. I know it is what I need to do. However, the finality of it all is scary. It seems too real now.

I think I'm getting in touch with my dependency and weakness. I feel that this is a real personality flaw of mine. I remain emotionally connected to him despite his emotional abuse. You see, you guys keep telling me that I HAVE to do stuff and I'm not sure that I can. I haven't backed down now but I'm losing confidence because you make it seem easier than it really is for me. Maybe PLAN B is not for me. However, I would like to do it and know that I need to do it. I'm SCARED!!!!

I feel inadequate. I need my husband. I am alone. I do not have him anymore. That makes me real sad.

HELP!!!!!

Oh my God Mimi, I've just started following your thread and I'm exactly where you are on going to Plan B.
I'm just to scared to take that next step. But I know I can't living like this. It's like if I give up the "conflict" I won't have "anything" left.
But that' crazy, I deserve more too.
Maybe sometime my WH will return to the H I remembered and loved. But for now it's clear that it is just much too painful to keep dealing with this person.
We need to find the strenght to go on, without them for now...
I see my WH as a man with little courage right now, I need to find that courage too, to do what I need to do.
I'll be thinking of you.

Ok Mimi, ask yourself this. What exactly did you have before you went into Plan B? A spouse who slept with you and OW, made no commitment to you, risked your life (unless you used protection during sex). Not including how awful you felt always having to look over your shoulder waiting for the other shoe to drop for more pain. I think this is what you need to ask yourself: What did you gain that was so great by continuing the way you had been before Plan B?

I need my husband.
Why?

quote: You see, you guys keep telling me that I HAVE to do stuff and I'm not sure that I can. I haven't backed down now but I'm losing confidence because you make it seem easier than it really is for me. Maybe PLAN B is not for me. However, I would like to do it and know that I need to do it. I'm SCARED!!!!

Just remember that you do not HAVE to do anything that I say or anyone else says. It is your choice.

I have been studying this issue of how to get a person back for over 20 years. What I have learned is that they usually do not come back when we pursue them and keep telling them we love them. When we keep "hanging" in there and hoping and praying they will somehow suddenly come to their senses. I very seldom see that happen.

Now, what I have seen work the best to get them to come around is this:

Do not pursue in ANY way. None. Nada.
When you do talk to them, act like everything is just perfectly fine in your life. Do not ask any questions about the relationship or getting back together or ANYTHING slightly hinting that you would take them back.(small talk is ok, but always hang up first.Tell them nice talking to you, but I have to go.)

Do not reveal every thought that comes to your mind. Be mysterious.

It is ok to call them if you have some business to take care of. Do small talk for a few minutes, get to the matter at hand, then politely end the call FIRST. (Don't think of excuses to call everyday)

Do not be so available when they call.Wait awhile to return calls. When you return it, do small talk, get to the matter at hand, then hang up FIRST.

When THEY bring up the relationship, agree with their view of things.(for example; yes, maybe this separation is good, or yes maybe WE do need some time apart.When you agree with them, they suddenly want to change their view of things. It really works to get them back.

You do not need a plan B letter or a plan B to do all of this Mimi. This also gives you the freedom to call, to have contact, and to get them to do the same thing plan b does. Harley has some great ideas, but plan B puts the BS in a tight spot if they start to feel like you are feeling.

The final thing is this. When you show him you can and will move on with or without him, and stop ALL pursuit and allow him to WONDER if he has lost you, is when he will start to slowly test you to see if you will still take him back.
DO NOT VEER off of your course. You have to be consistent with this day in and day out.

Be strong. It IS the way to get him back. It is ok to have insecure feelings. Just do not let him see, sense, or think that you want him back.

This is what I have concluded that works by far the best to get a person back. Strength. Confidence. Acting perfectly happy just the way things are in your life. No pressure or pursuit.

Let them wonder if you have met someone and are suddenly interested in another person.( I call it the phantom OP) Why? Because jealousy is very, very powerful and if they love you even the slightest, this causes them to re-think things.
They even do drive by's(ever do that yourself?)
Do not underestimate the power of jealousy. In my study, I have been very surprised by how many times I have seen this work. When they think they have some competition, it turns into a whole new ballgame....

If you do these things, you will probably get him back. If not, it will most likely slowly die.

Men RESPOND to a strong woman who will not share him. They respond to a woman who walks away with her dignity and shows self respect. They respond when you show them that you would rather be alone than to let him have his cake and eat it.

Let him see you moving on. Let him see that you are enjoying your freedom. That you enjoy learning how to take care of yourself. No matter what others tell you, this is your best shot to get him back.

Mimi,

Please calm yourself down and don't react to these emotions. You are just fine. You are a capable, thinking, independent woman who doesn't have to panic. You have not lost your husband. Plan B is NOT the forfeiture of your marriage, it is a PROTECTIVE STEP in a long process that will hopefully change the status of the relationship. This is all part of a PROCESS. Plan A was part of a PROCESS.

It makes no sense to continue contact at this point because it enables your DH to CAKEWALK. As long as he is allowed to cakewalk, he won't be motivated to move forward. And as long as you have executed a good plan A, which you have, Plan B can be very effective in 2 ways: protecting your feelings towards him and motivating him towards the marriage.

You are just fine as long as you stick with the PROCESS and don't respond to this panic. You are just fine, Mimi.

Originally posted by mimi1254:
Something about this thread is bothering me and making me want to stop PLAN B. I know it is what I need to do. However, the finality of it all is scary. It seems too real now.

I think I'm getting in touch with my dependency and weakness. I feel that this is a real personality flaw of mine. I remain emotionally connected to him despite his emotional abuse. You see, you guys keep telling me that I HAVE to do stuff and I'm not sure that I can. I haven't backed down now but I'm losing confidence because you make it seem easier than it really is for me. Maybe PLAN B is not for me. However, I would like to do it and know that I need to do it. I'm SCARED!!!!

Orchid: You are afraid of the unknown. Should you be? Well yes and no. Why? Because since you have never done this before, it should scare you a bit but on the other hand, read about the relief plan B gives the BS. Know that an LB statement or action in plan a is NOT an LB in plan B. Know that you will have a great weight taken off your shoulders. More than you realize. ....there is more.

I feel inadequate.

Orchid: But U R NOT inadequate. Refocus. You are just going to have to trust us and others who know you on this point....at least for now. Until you get your balance back.

I need my husband. I am alone. I do not have him anymore. That makes me real sad.

Orchid: U do need your H but you have been alone longer than you realize. Just because he was home physically, his character has been flawed and he has emotionally been gone for a while. U have been sad for a long time also.

Realize this, what you are feeling is hard, yes it is but it is temporary. I am not saying you will get over him in a day or 2, but you will be able to move forward in your progress. This feeling of abandonment will subside. Watch out for your anger..... it is right around the corner.

take care,
L.

[ May 28, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

THANKS so much to ALL of you who responded so brilliantly to my PANIC yesterday. That was some bridge that I had to cross. Today I am a new person, renewed in my decision to enjoy my freedom and not be caught again in my WS'web.

I figured out what happened. The problem was talking to him. Not only that. There was something in his voice. He has this little boy part of him that reaches out to me to take care of him. It was going on with him yesterday now that I piece it all together. He must have been in a fight or something with the OW. He ended up calling me ,leaving a cellphone message, last night at 8:00PM. Interesting time for him to be able to call. He sounded confused about how to proceed in his call. He actually had no real good reason to call me, asking me to cancel a hotel reservation that we had made for July and gabbing about other nonconsequential matters. I did not jump at the chance to call him back as he probably expected. Also, he probably thinks he is setting one of his plans in place. My call to him yesterday involved asking him to drive my son to a camp. I did not ask him to pick my son up yet he asked me HOW LONG IS THE CAMP? Probably plans to visit while my son is gone. So predictable when you think of it.

However, I feel strong and able to proceed as planned. No contact from me unless absolutely necessary. No begging or pleading. No relationship talk. No managing his life. Once I start cutting the strings, let's see how he does. He is going to realize how much he also DEPENDED on me. When he starts falling apart as I suspect, I plan to be strong enough to proceed with our recovery if that is what I choose and if that is GOD's will. It's not my way, it's HIS way. I'm living by the phrase, LET GO AND LET GOD. I have faith that HE will work it all out for me one way or another.

I'm making plans to keep myself busy. Dinner with a friend tonight. Church tomorrow night. Bookclubs which meet at Barnes and Noble next week. Photography classes, etc. This will give WS the illusion of the mystery man when I am SO BUSY. He will hear about me being out there, out and about. In the meantime, I will be getting stronger and stronger, making myself into a better person, not so needy and wimpy.

I know I will have my weak, sad moments because this is such a NEW WORLD for me. However, you guys, are right. It has to be better than that ALIEN WORLD that I was living in. I really can't imagine ever doing that again, sharing him with the OW. I was finding myself envious of her, worried about her thinking that she had WON. However, now that I think of it,I am the one that is victorious. I am free from the web. I don't have to live in fear, waiting for the next shoe to drop. She must be paranoid about him leaving again; in comparison, I do not plan to reconcile without a solid plan in place. Also, Lord knows, what lie he is telling her about his furniture and clothes which he is keeping at home in order to keep his foot in the door. That's almost laughable to me. My therapist predicts that he will never come get these things.

I will keep you guys posted.

[ May 29, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

This will give WS the illusion of the mystery man when I am SO BUSY. He will hear about me being out there, out and about.
Don‘t worry about what he is thinking about what you do. This is part of Plan B. You don’t go out because he would expect you to sit at home. Just go on & do it because it is what you want to do.

Also, remember that you are STILL married and do not act like you are single.

[ May 29, 2003, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Chris:

My reference to MYSTERY MAN ILLUSION was in response to KEEPMVFORWARD'S excellent and extremely helpful post regarding my situation.

I'm only doing things that I really want to do and enjoy doing such as book clubs and going to church. It does "kill two birds with one stone". My WS does want to think of me as sitting around the house waiting and pining for him. He has admitted this. I think he does need to get the message that I am not doing that.

I am a devout Christian and would not think of acting single. I don't believe in sex outside of marriage. I don't even believe in divorce as Christ hated divorce. My WS counts on this too, having said to me "I know you won't be dating because you are a Christian woman".

Thanks for continuing to check on me.

You have a blunt style. It's kind of intimidating for someone like me who is AFRAID of confrontation-another characteristic of mind that WS counts on and uses. You're helping me to grow!!

[ May 30, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I am a devout Christian and would not think of acting single.
Don't get me wrong. I was not suggesting you would act single. Just make sure you do not get too involved with male friends. As you have probably seen here many times, it is FAR too easy to get to a point where it is truly innocent enough but there is enough "pull" to get side-tracked on what Plan B really is.

You have a blunt style.
Get out!? I do NOT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess I'm just tired of having to dance around with people who won't/don't listen to MB advice and want to make excuses about why they should/shouldn't do something (lefty for example.)

Dear Mimi,
Sorry I'm not on the boards as much. Just wanted to respond to a question you asked me about why would you WH's turning off his voicemail be retaliation?

Answer: Your WH wants you to go along with his crazy behavior. Your Plan B letter challenged that and in effect removed you from his control. YOU set conditions- 1) no contact. 2) we'll communicate by voice mail.

So He's reeling at YOU setting the conditions and he's not happy about what you're doing. His instinct is to get back at you- retaliate- and also to rebel. He thinks, well if she's cutting off contact with me, I'll cut it off with her. I'll show her who's boss. I'll make sure she can't reach me the one way she specified we were to communicate.

His hope is of course he will panic you into going back on your decision.

Your panic, fear and sorrow is understandable. I know the fear of feeling alone. But in the year that he was cheating on you with OW, you were alone. You did not have a true partner at your side. So remember Mimi you have been alone and although it is not fun, you have stood on your own two feet and survived!

I agree with your therapist that he has left his stuff because he is not sure what he is doing. My feeling is don't push him to get the stuff. Let OW be annoyed about the lack of furniture. Unless you think he would purchase more stuff to replace what he's missing which would be a waste of money??? Can you see what he is spending his money on?

Be polite, civil but unavailable. Make him meet financial obligations and obligations to his children.

thinking of you and good luck!

I made what I call a brave step today.

WS didn't want to get a separate bank account for himself but I opened one for myself a couple of weeks ago. He stated that he wanted to "take things slow, leave things as they are until I make up my mind what I am going to do."

I went into the joint account and withdrew my alimony/child support money, not waiting for him to write me a check.

I sent him an E-mail, since I can't reach him by Voicemail (as planned), informing him of what I did.

There is not much money left in the account.

I haven't heard a word from him.

We'll see what happens.

I just figured that he would try to make me have to contact him, begging him for the money.

[ May 30, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I suggest you call (and then write) ALL your credit card companies & remove YOUR name from them. This will prevent any future debt incurred being held against you.

Here is a good practice exercise at being assertive.
When you call the credit card companies, get one in your own name. When they tell you what the interest rate is, TELL them you want a lower rate. This will work 75% of the time, simply by asking/telling them you want a lower rate.

GOOD FOR YOU MIMI! Now, expect to reap the whirlwind!

Seriously, he is going to be angry. Count on it. Do not succomb to his anger though. keep going dark on him. The door is closing on him. His wife is not waiting on him to decide. As I said to marathonman, you cannot love someone you dont respect. Now, you cannot earn respect by words. It is only earned by actions.

He now knows you mean business. Keep it up. I did the same thing with my wife. I slowly, over several weeks, started to close down accounts, foward her mail to her, etc. I didnt say anything about it after I told her that I had done it.

At first, she was VERY angry. But as each thing I did mounted, she saw that it was like she was swimming against the tide. One way or the other, your husband will now begin to get the message.

And for you? You begin to get control back of your life. The seige will begin to lift. It is this process that will help you leave, if he never comes back. It is also this process that makes you a beter Mimi, if he "pulls his head out"

Good job! Keep it up. Expect the worse out of him for awhile. Ignore it. Go dark on him. Begin to turn out the lights. It is quiet in the fog...and now, it is getting dark. His anger will soon turn to fear. And it is that fear that will lead him to seek out the person who can rescue him from the darkness. And if it doesnt? Oh well. You dont want to hang out in the dark with him anyway for the rest of your life, do you?

In His arms.

Mimi, keep up the good work. Staying busy is the key and you sound like you've got that pinned down.
It was my assumption you had set up the amount of monies you would receive and a generous amount at that?
Try separating the bills now. He is responsible for his own car payments,etc.
You should be receiving enough to make house payments, utilities and any other payments directly related to your living expense.
If he were to leave permanently, wouldn't you have to make all arrangements for your son yourself? Taking him where he needs to go, etc.?
Quit asking him to take son anywhere. If he ask for visitations or to be involved then send him a schedule.
Time to prepare yourself as though H doesn't exist!
If you email him, send info only about son, his schedule and needs. Short and to point.
No chit chat in between.
You can do this! make sure your alimony and child support is set so if you do work it's not deducted according to your income!
They can do that you know by court order!
So you would be self defeating by working without this agreement.
LEN

LADY LOU:

Why did you say, time to prepare yourself as if your husband did not exist?

I have an agreement for an ample amount for bills.

I just did not want to wait around for my WS to send me a check when I had access to the funds.

I guess I just consider him irresponsible right now and I felt I needed to take care of myself.

MM:
It's been quiet in the fog! I haven't heard anything at all from him since getting the money on Friday. I thought he would express his anger or something. However, he has a style of quietly 'getting even" so I 'll probably find out something devious that he has done. He still has not arranged to get his clothes or furniture from the house.

TO YOU ALL:
Is it typical for me to want my WS to try to get in touch with me during PLAN B although I requested NC? I wouldn't call him back. I can't help but hope that he is beginning to miss me. I'm hoping that all is not great in the alien world.

I'm not pining away for him as much. I'm getting more in touch with how bad he treated me. It's making me feel more hopeless about reconciliation. That isn't a good thing is it? I thought that PLAN B was supposed to safeguard the marriage. At least when I had contact with him, which I probably can easily resume if I choose to do so, I had some good feelings about him. Now I'm mainly remembering the bad parts of our relationship over the past few months. I'm thinking maybe she deserves him. YUK!!!

[ June 02, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Wow, Mimi, thanks for his forum, and
Great job Keepmvfwd.

I copied your advice and will be using it.

I am in the same boat, except after i asked my WH to move out he initiated contact again (before that he was only thinking about her). She said no and now he wants to come back, but keep her as a friend. A firm Plan B doesn't seem to work, because the situation changes so much. And I still enjoy contact with him. He wants to come back, but doesn'twant to work hard at it.

I will be using your advice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
LADY LOU:

I'm not pining away for him as much. I'm getting more in touch with how bad he treated me. It's making me feel more hopeless about reconciliation. That isn't a good thing is it? I thought that PLAN B was supposed to safeguard the marriage. At least when I had contact with him, which I probably can easily resume if I choose to do so, I had some good feelings about him. Now I'm mainly remembering the bad parts of our relationship over the past few months. I'm thinking maybe she deserves him. YUK!!!<hr /></blockquote>It is a good thing to distance yourself from him so you can see the REALITY of the situation. The situation is not good, Mimi. His behavior is not good, so you shouldn't have good feelings about it. That is normal.

What is NOT NORMAL is to be so needy and scared to be alone that you gloss over all those bad points and overlook the fact that if/when you reconcile you will be signing on for a difficult venture. When I accepted my H back, I had to accept that I was "settling" for a tough package and a hard road. It doesn't mean the relationship is hopeless, but that you are seeing it in a clearer, more realistic light. Its not good, Mimi, but it can be.

MELODY:

The only thing I can say right now is that you are so right about what you are saying. I guess I have to face reality but all of this seems so UNREAL .

I know. I requested NC from him and he is being compliant. However, I have to admit to being anxious about him not trying to contact me especially since I got the alimony/child support money.

I'm trying to put this all in God's hands. However, I'm wanting to hear my WS' voice so badly even if it's on my voicemail. I'm tempted to call him and do a hangup if he answers. It's so hard to LET GO.

His condo furniture and closet full of clothes are triggers. I keep wondering if he's never going to get them, if he's going to call to arrange a pickup or if that's his entry for coming home.

I'm praying that all is not going well with him and the OW. However, I can't help being afraid that they are getting closer. This is the first time period that they have had all their time together.

Despite the feelings above, I have been working on building my new life. I went to a Book Club and met some new women last night. I enjoyed this but felt weird like this was not me even like I was in a fog, a dream world.

Another nagging question. My WS is attracted by the OW's Need for him. He has mentioned seeing me as being independent, not needing his assistance. My going ahead with my life without asking for his assistance is reinforcing this belief during Plan B isn't it? Of course, I need him badly to help me with all the household and parenting responsibilities that are all falling on me.

I need to hear from you guys today if possible.

[ June 03, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I want to hear from you!! Need support!!!

Thanks.

Hi Mimi,

I'm where you're at. It's painful. It's difficult but you have to maintain resolve.

My H just called me on my cell. I thought it was a consultant (comes up as private), answered and it was my H.

So I hung up. There is no room for negotiation anymore. He wants out so push them in that direction.

It's called protection and self preservation.

Prayers

Mimi,

Let me respond to your questions in your last post. Then I will hopefuly give you some helpful advice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know. I requested NC from him and he is being compliant. However, I have to admit to being anxious about him not trying to contact me especially since I got the alimony/child support money.<hr /></blockquote>This is all natural Mimi. But as yiu have said, the longer you are apart, the more you see the "bad" side. This is good. Plan B is to save your love for him, and to get your life prepared for the future...with or without him. what these feelings do is lock up your love for you husband in a vault to protect that love. That's why you need no contact (or as little as possible). At first, those feelins dont want to be locked up. But eventually, with the help of the bad memories, your love for him is pushed into that vault and the door locked. Now, if you have contact with him the door flings open and you have to confront your feelings again.

Your husband KNOWS he has the key to that vault door. He is counting on you not being able to close and lock it. That is why he is silent right now. But be patient. it is like a two year old that says he is running away. He then runs out in the back yard and hides in the shed. You know where he is at. So, you just leave him there to think. After he is done being upset, he realizes that no one is coming for him. He then eventually comes back in the house hungry and tired. Same goes for your husband now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm trying to put this all in God's hands. However, I'm wanting to hear my WS' voice so badly even if it's on my voicemail. I'm tempted to call him and do a hangup if he answers. It's so hard to LET GO.<hr /></blockquote>See above. More contact, even to hear his voice, only hurts YOU. It is like WS withdrawal from the OP. You are having withdrawal from your husband. Remember this feeling when/if he comes home. That way, you will be more understanding of what he will be going through. But, the same principle exists here as with the WS. Your withdrawal will end in a couple of weeks, if you maintain no contact. I KNOW! It took about 3-4 weeks in a full Plan B (only contact was about the kids), and then I no longer had that urge to talk to her or see her. But, remember, she was going through withdrawal from me also. so is your husband from you. Who will crack first? You know the truth of all this...he does not. thus, there is no game plan on his side. So, this withdrawal will continue to increase the pain. If you stay the course, I am betting he cracks first.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />His condo furniture and closet full of clothes are triggers. I keep wondering if he's never going to get them, if he's going to call to arrange a pickup or if that's his entry for coming home.<hr /></blockquote>For now, can you hide this stuff in the basement or something. Somewhere you cant see them. Eventually, this may be helpful in Plan B, because should this go on for awhile, you will be able to increase the heat on him by sending his stuff to him. And he will see you starting to pull away. I did this with my wife. I was done. I was 5 weeks into Plan B. I was processing the divorce paperwork. So, I began to give to her when she came to see the kids, some of the things she had left behind. A little at a time. She began to see this with everything else I was doing as I was done with her. Two weeks after this, she was at my door talking reconciliation. So, hide the stuff from your view if you can. If you have the money, put it all into short term storage somewhere. Then in a couple of weeks...start sending it back by mauybe a mutual friend driving a truck you rent to his new place with all of his stuff in the back. That will be one helluva message!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm praying that all is not going well with him and the OW. However, I can't help being afraid that they are getting closer. This is the first time period that they have had all their time together.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly what happened with me. Read my threads from November/December/January. I pulled back completely, and they both threw themselves into their relationship full bore. For the first time, it was just the two of them. From the start of Plan B, to my wife showing up at my door, it was about 8 weeks. Right from the start, the OM began to LB. He was thinking that he had it made, and it was now time that he could let his guard down. Your husband hasnt seen all that the OW has to "offer." Now he will. And the things you have always been in his life, he will have to get from her now. Count on her failing miserably at that. And when he turns around...no Mimi to give him his fork for his cake!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Despite the feelings above, I have been working on building my new life. I went to a Book Club and met some new women last night. I enjoyed this but felt weird like this was not me even like I was in a fog, a dream world.<hr /></blockquote>I know how you feel. For awhile, just tell yourself that you are on a vacation. Reality...your future...will come into play in a few weeks/months.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Another nagging question. My WS is attracted by the OW's Need for him. He has mentioned seeing me as being independent, not needing his assistance. My going ahead with my life without asking for his assistance is reinforcing this belief during Plan B isn't it? Of course, I need him badly to help me with all the household and parenting responsibilities that are all falling on me.<hr /></blockquote>So, has you needing him worked so far? seriously, he knows you need him. and up until now, even with his fog talk, he has seen that. What he will now see is that maybe he was wrong. And he will become scared that you might be getting independent, that you wont need him. Meanwhile, OW is still not meeting all his needs and is increasingly LBing. This is why most affairs do not work out in the end. Once the light of day is shed on them, and then the spouse pulls back (after a good Plan A), they finally get to see the real person they have hooked up with. And the grass aint any greener. As a matter of fact, they now look on the other side of the fence and see the changes and realize they had it better at home.

Trust this Mimi. I know how you are feeling. But if you give in now, you will just have to go through all of this again. And next time, he will not believe you are serious. And it will take much longer. Let the withdrawal phase finish. Once that is done, we will see where your husband is. And then, you can make some decisions.

In His arms.

I was victorious and did not make that call to my WS. It was helpful to think of this as being a withdrawal phase. I'm remembering when I quit smoking and am applying the same coping strategies. I keep telling myself that it will eventually get better, taking it one hour at a time, and keeping myself busy. I also like the idea of thinking of this as being a vacation. It surely seems WEIRD!! I have NEVER lived alone before, went straight from my parents house into marriage. It's good that I am finally having this opportunity.

Do I have this correct in regards to the process that is going on? I'm locking the love for my WS away so that it is not openly expressed? It's still there but not being shared with him?

It's still very quiet in the fog. I had to communicate with my WS' office staff regarding financial matters and he had them to comply with my requests. They initially did not want to and I asked them to check with him. That was a good sign that he was not in a fight with me.

Why do you guys think that he is not getting his clothes and condo furniture? I still wonder about this. Did he get new furniture? I can't help but wonder what the OW thinks about this. I know I should not be concerned with this BUT....

I'm feeling a lot better as time goes by. I'm believing in the benefits of PLAN B. Overall, it's better than the crumbs that I was getting from him before.

Anybody there? I'd love to hear from some of you. Starting to feel some of that PLAN B Blahs tonight.

I planted a flower bed until the sun went down. Now I have to think of something else to do.

Mimi,

I read the last page of your thread and you what you are feeling is very normal when dealing with this abnormal situation. NOw you will be looking for his calls and even wanting them but you know how unhealthy it is to get them when he is NOT ready to treat you like royalty.

So keep in mind that he is NOT in the right frame of mind to treat you right so you really don't want that kind of H now. Right???

Also know that these feelings of despair and even desparation of temporary..... it will soon pass.

Now about keeping yourself busy.... good job. Since you have already done your planting for tongiht and I am still at work.... howz about you make dinner for my family!??!?! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding!

Need to run home and go be a mom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Mimi, you GO girl!

I think the last few posters have made some good points!

Remember, what your H may say he needs is not actually what he really wants or needs. Yes, he likes the fact that the OW is needy. It means she has to put up with his bulls#it. She is so needy she will tolerate boinking a married man who has not even bothered to get his furniture out of the house! And he would like YOU to be needy too- so he could boink OW and come over for a warm reception from you. What will give him a cold wakeup call is when he begins to truly fear that he is losing you. So for now, let him stew in his own juices- GOOD for not calling him.

During the A, my H claimed he liked OW's "freedom and spontaneity" unlike me, who "managed or administrated" our house and children. In fact, when it was all over, he told me he "counts on me to handle everything" and he now saw OW's "spontaneity" as selfishness and irresponsibility.

Why did you say, time to prepare yourself as if your husband did not exist?

I have an agreement for an ample amount for bills.

Okay, there's an agreement. Now what if he doesn't give you any money? What if he quits his job?

What are ya' gonna do?

CHRIS:
Actually THINKING that he doesn't exist has been a good coping technique for me from time to time.

I have the financial situation nailed down I think. Most of the bills that won't get paid are in his name. Would mess up his credit rating. I think that's important to him. I have a good-paying job that would pay for the basics and a couple of lines of credit, one of them still in both names. Also, I would just have to take him to court.

Also as ESPOIR knows, I am a micromanager. That's what my WS has counted on and wants me to continue to do for him. That's why he does not want to separate everything out. He still has the joint bank account that I have access to. That's how I withdrew the support money.

I'm continuing to struggle with all of this, trying to decide what is best for me. This independent thinking is a learning experience but not familiar to me at all.

I have a good-paying job that would pay for the basics and a couple of lines of credit, one of them still in both names.
You WILL get that corrected very soon, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good luck Mimi

I think you are doing well.

S.

Actually I'm having a hard time this evening. I think I'm remembering the Thursday that he most recently got back with the OW. I had a flashback of the feeling of knowing that "HE IS WITH HER RIGHT NOW". He's probably with her most of his free time these days. That makes me very sad. I feel lonely and blue.

I'm going to exercise. I feel like I need to but that's going to be a downer because that's what we used to do together most recently. OH WELL! That's just the way it is. I have to accept that there is nothing I can do about it. I keep thinking at least I have the clothes and furniture. Hope she's anxious about that but maybe they bought all new furniture and clothes while I sit here all alone.

Having a pity party and a VENT!!!

I will check back here when I get back from the gym. I hope you guys can help me with some encouraging thoughts.

I'm wanting to make that call or do a driveby. I know it won't do any good. I just want to do something. The best I can do right now is the treadmill.

[ June 05, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I'm continuing to feel rotten.

I almost can understand how women in European countries tolerate their husbands' mistresses.

I want to call him or write him to let him know how much this is hurting me. I know it wouldn't make any difference but it seems like it would help me feel better.

I know that this does not fit with what has been recommended to me here so I am not going to do anything.

However, I do feel really bad. This is so awful. I just can't imagine how I'm ever going to get over this. To have your whole life turned upside down at my age is truly traumatic. I just want to say that!!! I keep thinking that I've probably already lived most of my life. I had no idea that it would turn out like this.

HELP!!!!

Mimi, I know this is tough. It is not fair. It is the toughest thing one can go through. But just know that it won't be like this forever. You WILL live over this and come to a place where you have peace and sanity in your life. You are not alone in this at all. You have us and you have God in your corner. Hang in there, ok?

Thanks for being there Melody. I'm struggling tonight for some reason.

How is your boy doing?

Mimi, I didn't mean that comment about preparing yourself as though H didn't exist to be hurtful or an omen.
I think you're doing well under the situation, but what i meant was not to let him think you are dependent on him in other ways.
Live with son, do things as though it was just the two of you!
I know H had a responsibility to do things for his child, but having to ask and then H makes excuses it no good. Better to let him know you can manage without I'd think.
But, that's just the independence in me coming out probably.
God bless, LouLou

What I've realized is that what we are experiencing is a MAJOR TRAUMA . What happened yesterday was that I actually had a flashback. I parked in the same parking place at the same time of day that I realized that my WS was getting back with the OW. He clicked his cell phone off as I was parking in the space and I recalled that yesterday. It all came back to me, the awfulness and shock of it. That caused my major setback last night.

This is incredible! I think that it's a miracle for those that go into recovery. Of course, I would wish that for my situation but right now that almost seems hopeless because I feel so incredibly WOUNDED by this. I can understand what causes folks to suicide or to commit crimes because I was feeling at moments that I could do either last night. You need some relief from the EMOTIONAL PAIN .

I also understand now how affairs begin. I think I am extremely vulnerable at this time. Not getting any of my ENs met by my WS, I am extremely needy and lonely, needing MALE companionship. However, I also know how one must use self-control and am aware how such self-control and discipline are possible.

I wonder if any of you have had such experiences. It's called POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER , a syndrome experienced by victims of trauma. I almost actually had a panic attack. Will this ever end? Yes, I know it will somehow, someday, some way.

I can certainly relate to the loneliness Mimi. I have often felt like ringing up some female friends to meet for lunch or for a coffee. I know I shouldn't though as I am not in a healthy state of mind right now - and recognising that makes me strong. I only have to think of how bad I feel to warn me off doing this to anybody, even/especially WW.

A Victory For Me!!!!!

Mortarman was Right!!!

WS CRACKED FIRST!! He left Voice Mail Message this morning. I'm not answering my office phone. He was trying to sound nice and helpful, indicating his plan to watch my son march as a Jr. Marshal and to take him to his camp. He thinks the way to me is through my son. Of course, assisting with him is his responsibility. Also, I know there's the plan to try to get with me while my son is gone. I am not going to fall for it., especially after last night.

[ June 06, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

well done Mimi

Keep strong, it sounds like your plan is working

mimi, you sound much better today! Pat yourself on the back for not caving into your panic and taking any actions that would undo your progress. You are right, this is a MAJOR TRAUMA. It is as bad as the death of a child. But you do LIVE OVER IT. Really.

I think yesterday was another BRIDGE I had to cross, remembering that last D-Day.

Also I feel empowered by my WS' phone call. Just like when I was in PLAN A, he does not seem to have a clue whereas I understand what is going on. I know that he's going to try to make his move when he comes to take my son to camp. Little does he know that I'm not going be at home. I'm recalling how he ended the call by saying, "I'll be talking to you later." He thinks he has me wrapped around his finger. Not this time. I'm not getting into that triangle again. I'm thinking about not going to the graduation ceremony when my son escorts the Seniors. I've not decided about that. I know my son wants me to go. I'll have to figure out a way to hide from my WS.

I have to admit to needing SF. Is there any way I can slip that in with him? I guess not in PLAN B. Plus that will set me back won't it? Just asking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
I think yesterday was another BRIDGE I had to cross, remembering that last D-Day.

Also I feel empowered by my WS' phone call. Just like when I was in PLAN A, he does not seem to have a clue whereas I understand what is going on.<hr /></blockquote>This is one of the best features of Plan A and Plan B, they bring *some* sanity and order to an insane, chaotic situation. Just think how horrible it would be if you had no plan, no direction?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Little does he know that I'm not going be at home.<hr /></blockquote>GREAT IDEA! I like it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have to admit to needing SF. Is there any way I can slip that in with him? I guess not in PLAN B. Plus that will set me back won't it? Just asking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Go take a cold shower, Mimi! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ June 06, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

mimi,

Remember that one of the reasons for Plan B as discussed by Harley is:

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

It is to protect you and protect the love that is left for both spouses. Don't cave in....no matter the outcome, no contact will help the process for your marriage (if you reconcile) or for you ( if you don't) Stay strong.

Regardless of my SUFFERING today, I am still going forward in the right direction. I went riding around looking at houses that I might like to live in. I'm planning on putting this house, OUR house ,on the market soon.

The fear, though, is the increased uninterrupted time they have together. I find it difficult to take my focus off of what they might be doing. I can't fill my life up with enough distractions or the distractions can't maintain my attention.
I will continue to try to stay busy. I guess this will pass. However, I feel a strong need for male companionship. I know, my WS was not REALLY here for me before he left. However, what hurts is that we had the best time we've had in years over the past few months since D-Day. He was more like himself than he had been in years. He was responding to my PLAN A but still could not break away from her.

Oh Well. Back to staying busy....

Mimi,Don't skip your sons activities! Why should he suffer for the WS?
So, you run into UH! So what?
As for falling into bed with him, have plans for afterward, busy, won't be going right home. And same for when he picks son up.
You are trying to hide to avoid H. Don't. just be busy and have plans and if he ask why, say "Well, I am getting on with my life! since you have yours separate now my UH.
Done.
LouLou

mimi,

Plan B is risky....you already know that. But to prolong Plan A allows he WS to enjoy the selfishness of having his needs met by two women instead of one. Plan A....while you can feel the highs of intimacy....also contains the humiliation for some of filling needs while a spouse eats cake. With Plan B, along with risk...comes a return to self....pride, commitment, desire for closure and real change that Plan A does not offer. All of us understand the pain of the pitures....the imaginings of their time spent together. But remember that you cannot know how much of that has been ruined for your spouse by the tender care of your Plan A. How many times is he with her....that he thinks of you? We do not know. Take heart. Even if this fails...you are better off than a perpetual Plan A.

Mimi

I think starfish makes some very good points there.

Just one more thought. Looking at MortarMans advice on another thread, he advised a BS NOT to sell the house. Everytime your WS looks at it, it will be a reminder of what he left and COULD CHOOSE to come back to.
Of course, you may have other good reasons for considering selling, but worth bearing in mind.

S.

Harley says time for PLAN B when WS is trying to decide between BS and the OW.

That's what really hurts. It feels like BS has chosen the OW over me.

I realized today that she is the total opposite of me in almost every way. What does that mean? It seems like a total rejection of me and everything that I am and stand for. I'm religious, she is not; I have a graduate degree , she has not gone to college; I have a professional job, she is a secretary; I like designer clothes, she buys shoes from PAYLESS; I can't cook well, she cooks him special meals; I am known for being a "nice" person, she curses him out; I can go on and on with the differences... One of my friends said that he will try to make her into me. I don't think so. I think he is rejecting me totally, angry at me. There are alot of these things about me that I can't change. I can't be less intelligent, less knowledgeable or younger. This is not a good sign is it????

I'm still hurting alot today. I thought that he wouldn't last through this PLAN B. My lonely life here sucks.

[ June 08, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi

you have only been in plan B a short time I think. There are positive signs there. I don't believe he has chosen you over her. If she was exactly the same as you he would hardly have been interested - he would have had that at home. Different doesn't equal better either. Put the focus on you, become better at what you are good at, and good at what you are weak at.

Remember that he is probably full of doubts now - it just needs time to build critical mass before he is knocking your door down!

Keep up the good work

I realized today that she is the total opposite of me in almost every way. What does that mean? It seems like a total rejection of me and everything that I am and stand for. I'm religious, she is not; I have a graduate degree , she has not gone to college; I have a professional job, she is a secretary; I like designer clothes, she buys shoes from PAYLESS; I can't cook well, she cooks him special meals; I am known for being a "nice" person, she curses him out; I can go on and on with the differences... One of my friends said that he will try to make her into me. I don't think so. I think he is rejecting me totally, angry at me. There are alot of these things about me that I can't change. I can't be less intelligent, less knowledgeable or younger. This is not a good sign is it????

Mimi

I've been following your situation & posts for awhile. I do very much feel the pain & sadness you are in. My situation is so familiar.

I started plant B a week ago. WW left me for an old boyfriend of 30 years ago. He is the opposite of me. I am quiet and reserved, he is talkative and outgoing. I am not wealthy, he is rich. I don't confront or initiate, he is in your face and confident. WW has walked away from home, 3 dogs, 2 cats, a business and friends. I also feel that it is a total rejection of me. She says I have no life and goes off fly fishing with OM. WW said a month ago the only way she would stay in the relationship was if I "changed". I can see the need for some changes yes, but I am still me. I think that is what hurts most after so many years is the rejection of "me". Plan B is good for me and my self respect. I can now at least know that one way or another she'll have to make a decision instead hanging around home eating her cake. I am so impressed with the way you handle your crisis. You have your integrity intact. My greatest hope is for your H to see the light and see what a gem he is missing out on.
-------------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003
Plan B 6/1/03
Asked WS to move out

Mimi,

I hear you. I am 2 months into Plan B and I feel the same way - like the OW has won and I have lost. My H has received good advice from the MB boards and yet isn't making the first effort at ending the A, even though he tells people that he loves me and wants our M to survive. The words and the deeds certainly are opposite. If he really feels that way, then why doesn't he show me and the world?

IMHO, I think your H ran as far from you as he could (figuratively) - thus the "opposite" traits in the OW. What he is trying, sub-consciously, is to convince himself that your "type" is wrong, wrong, wrong, and to rationalize the selection he has made...when, in fact, you are probably exactly what he wants and needs.

I guess we have to not be too hasty to judge where our WS's are when they are fog-bound, but I admit it is hard! Thank heavens we have this place to come and share. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Salerio, I am taking comfort from your words. I guess that even though it seems like forever, my time in Plan B - 2 months - is not that long, at least from what I read here. Yes it is a lonely, lonely place to be. I only hope I can hold out and hold on to the love I have until (if) he decides he wants to work on our life together.

Mortarman:

Are you lurking around here?

I'd love to learn your thoughts/advice about my recent events: WS' call about coming to son's events and plan to take him to camp. What about the graduation ceremony? Do I go? I think he's wanting to see me.

Mimi,

I was headed to your thread right after I posted with Learnin. Obviously you read what I wrote to her in regards to Plan B.

Hang in there. My Plan B roughly took 6-7 weeks before there was a noticable crack. Now that my wife is home, I found out that during those 6-7 weeks, things were indeed reaching "critical mass." This is why once you go to Plan B...DO NOT BACK DOWN! It will hurt you and cause you to have to go back through withdrawal. And it will make your husband think that you are not serious the next time. He sounds like there may be cracks in is armor. Dont think about them together alone right now (easier said than done!). Understand that now that you have done Plan A, and have forced him into Plan B, you have put him in a no win situation. He has an "either/or" scenario now. Either you or her. And since you said she is an exact opposite of you, the contrast will be readily apparent (my wife's OM was exact opposite of me).

Look, you have been married a long time. Your husband is used to certain things. He will expect her to do them also, and do them the way he likes them done. But guess what? She cant! up until now, they had a common "enemy"...that being you. So they laid down the differences that they dont like about each other to confront the assault on their relationship by you. But now that you are in Plan B, there is no enemy to their relationship. So, for the next few weeks/months, they will begin to be truly alone with each other...warts and all. And the last thing that your WH remembers of you is your Plan A.

Just like I told Learnin, the cycle will begin. OW will begin to LB. He will not be able to come to you to make up for what she is not giving him. So, he will begin to try to "change" her...or worse yet...to LB her because he is angry that she cant do it the way he likes. Of course, this LBing will cause her to back up and get angry and LB him. And her new LBs will only make him want to change things more...or pull back from her. And all of the time in this cycle, he has the memory of YOU. You are no longer around so he can invent his view of you. He is left with the reality of your Plan A, as he sits alone in Plan B fog.

So, he will begin to try to call, or stop by for some stupid reason. He will try to get near you, and if he does, he will try to get you to LB, so he cna justify and feel better about the mess that is now his relationship with the OW. But guess what? You are not even in the cycle. You dont respond to him, talk to him nor meet ANY of his needs. He is now alone in a relationship that is increasingly becoming worse than anything he thought the two of you had. My wife said at one point right before I went to Plan B, that she would prefer to go back in time and go back to the worse years of our marriage than to go through what she was going through. Why do you think that over 97% of these relationships do not work out?

But Mimi, now is the time to stay out of it. I disagree somewhat with what was stated above about not "hiding" from your WH. Now, while I agree that you shouldnt go to undue lengths to stay away from him, since you have a child together, I also believe that it is better for you if you have very little contact, even visual. It will only cause you to get upset and go into withdrawal again. And it will give him the opportunity to have new memories where he might get the good Mimi of the Plan A out of his head.

I think that if you have to not go to something that he is attending, then dont go. When I went to Plan B, my wife and I did not attend the school functions atthe same time. We did nothing associated with Christmas together. Several times, she wanted to come by or catch up with us when we went out to eat...and I ALWAYS denied her.

Plan B has to be air tight. Since you have a child, you still must have some contact. Make it ONLY about the kids, and only things that you HAVE to do together right now. There will be plenty of time in the future, if you are to divorce, to find a comfortable way to deal with each other. Right now, he needsto continue to be as uncomfortable as possible. And you have to get as comfortable as possible. The only way to do that is stay on course, stay away from him...and let the plan do its work.

The cracks you see are real. This is not the time to give in. Stay the course. I think you are beginning to see the beginning of the end.

In His arms.

Mimi,

Of course there are events that you cannot miss because of your son. The graduation being one of them. So, on those, you must go but protect yourself. Come close to start time so there is no time for him to come sit next to you or talk to you. As soon as it is over, find the exit. If there is to be a graduation party, put on your own for your son. Let your husband put on his own. If that is not practical, make sure you have a friend there that will keep you busy and away from WH. Tell him/her (your friend) that if husband starts coming anywhere near you, they are to run interference, coming up and asking you to do something or go look at something. Get help with this from a good friend. You must try to stay away from him at all costs.

You will have to take each event as it comes. Tailor it with your own nees and desires (your desire to be at your son's graduation for example) with the probablity of contact. find away to either avoid it altogether, or a plan to avoid your husband. You will have to think out every event in advance.

And be prepared with some pat answers if he does get to you. Know in advance on how you will slither away if he does make contact. Stay on plan. He is in a tight spot now. You have to make EVERY second count!

In His arms

Mimi

thinking of you. Hoping things are going okay for you in plan B.

Good luck

S.

WS called last week (message on VoiceMail) stating that he would come to pick up my son for camp tomorrow morning.

I am guilty of being an obsessive micro-manager. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. ANYWAYS!!!

I sent an E-Mail to WS yesterday reminding him of this and asked for him to get in touch with me if taking son will be a problem. There has been no response.

Should I call him or E-Mail again to ask for confirmation? I'm anxious about getting son to camp. I haven't made other arrangements. Of course, this is indicating my lack of trust in the reliability of WS. It probably is some kind of a test that he has not confirmed. He knows that I would feel less anxious if he got back with me. I wouldn't think he would stand my son up but WHO KNOWS ABOUT HIM these days. I know he's probably angry because his funds are low at this point.

What do you guys think????

[ June 11, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Yes it could be a test of no response so that you will have to respond in another way. DON'T, if he doesn't respond then make other arrangements as PLAN B! If he doesn't show up in time then use your alternative to get your son there. WS in Plan B will do things that you wouldn't think they would do, so ALWAYS HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE PLAN!

I'M BACK ON THE SADDLE!!

No need for previous panic over camp tomorrow.

WS calls answering machine at work a few minutes ago, sounding as if it's just another day in our lives. He sounds just like we're living together and he didn't leave me last month for the OW. So much for sarcasm.

He says "I'll see you tonight at the graduation". My plan is for him not to see me. Hopefully, I'll see him first and will be able to duck him. Probably not. He'll probably try to sit with me. I'll let you know how this goes.

Plus, he gives the time when he will pick up my son tomorrow morning. Precise. Just like he knows that I like it. How compliant of him!!!

So why does he wait so long to call?? Such a busy single life??

Thanks for being there, you guys. I will fill you in later.

[ June 11, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Agree with trying2_4give! Set up alternative plans and if your H shows up, then so be it. But don't contact him anymore about it.

Melody,
See my post before yours.

I didn't see WS at the graduation ceremony. I don't know if he saw me since it was in a portion of a coliseum.

He probably was surprised that I did not try to arrange a way to meet him which would have been my typical style after he calls. He probably thinks that I am worried about appearances since it was one of those community/social events where I used to play the dutiful,trophy wife. I did the hobnobing alone today,going up and speaking to the people that I usually speak to, both friends and acquaintances. One of the school board members even waved to me in the stands. No one mentioned seeing him so I'm not sure if he was there. People usually ask me about him when I've been going out alone. We are well-known in our community and, as I've been saying, I've "come out of the closet".

If he was there, he must have been proud of our son who looked so handsome as a JUNIOR MARSHAL, dressed in a white tuxedo. I was thinking, how could he abandon this child at this time in his life? I guess that's what made me so bold.

Tomorrow morning he picks him up for the camp. I plan on leaving very early for work.

Any thoughts???

[ June 11, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Keep it up! Keep a strict Plan B. The heat will begin to rise for your WH.

You are doing great!

In His arms

Ditto, MM! Sounds like you are doing great, Mimi!

I'm watchin and "learnin"!
You can do this, I can too!
Good job!

Made a mistake and went through my WS' stuff that he left at the house.

I found all this silk underwear that he had altered--I'll leave that to your imagination and their MATCHING HOUSE SLIPPERS . Well, he had saved one of his and one of hers.

I almost threw up.

I threw the stuff in the garbage. I do not want their love nest crap in my house.

Continues to be a living nightmare.

I don't know how the trip to camp went. I guess no news is good news given that my son was threatening to "punch him out" when he came to pick him up. You see, WS had not called my son since he left. I have not heard a word from either of them.

WS is probably mad because I left his bills on the doorstep for him to begin paying on his own.

YUCK!!!

WS just called on office Voice Mail, asking me about some financial issues. Then stated, CALL ME BACK AT THE OFFICE.

I sent him an E-MAIL, answering his questions and reiterating terms of the PLAN B letter. That I am not going to see him or talk to him UNTIL!!!!! This was a MAJOR TEST by him being so bold as to ask me to call. Remember, he came to the house yesterday to pick up my son. My son said that he came inside for "a couple of minutes". Everything was beautiful in the house since I'm "Creating a Beautiful Life". I also have my flowers planted in the yard which is a new thing for me.

I guess my response to him was OK.

Any thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated.

I just always need the support of you guys.

I think now that it's PLAY by PLAY ACTION .

[ June 13, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I probably goofed.

I talked to WS. He responded to my E-Mail, insisting on wanting to clarify terms of reconciliation.

WS: I have been depressed since leaving... remembering our good times together prior to leaving... really depressed after taking son to camp...wanted to call you but afraid...gave son a card saying how proud I am of him but he was not responsive, etc.

Me: It would only take about 5 minutes of you making it clear to me that you will never have contact with her again for me to consider talking to you in more detail about reconciliation. I certainly am not ready for you to come home.

WS: I need to feel that you really love me...that what you are saying is not just words.

Me: You have the last few months to remember. You have not given us a real chance...only three weeks of withdrawal when it takes months.

WS: I know I have to admit that the past few months have been good and I can't get you off of my mind. I have been reading a lot of books about Reconciliation and Forgiveness in relationships.

Me: Read Surviving an Affair, the book I gave you. Also, you can go onto the Marriagebuilders website to read about couples who have recovered.

(He seemed interested in MB Website. Is that a good idea?)

WS: I'm going to think about what you have said and will get back to you later. What time are you going to pick up son tomorrow?

Me: 6:30 AM. Bye. I've got to go.

So Now What?? Hit me over the head with a 2x4. I have not started the longing for him yet but I know it's coming.

Well, he certainly is not expressing his undying love for her but he did get his FIX of me. YUK!!

I want to hear from you guys ASAP. I think this is not over with and I'm not strong.

He sounded like himself--not as foggish!!!

BUMP!! I'm anxious!!!!

quote:
WS: I have been depressed since leaving... remembering our good times together prior to leaving... really depressed after taking son to camp...wanted to call you but afraid...gave son a card saying how proud I am of him but he was not responsive, etc.

Me: It would only take about 5 minutes of you making it clear to me that you will never have contact with her again for me to consider talking to you in more detail about reconciliation. I certainly am not ready for you to come home.

WS: I need to feel that you really love me...that what you are saying is not just words.

Me: You have the last few months to remember. You have not given us a real chance...only three weeks of withdrawal when it takes months.

WS: I know I have to admit that the past few months have been good and I can't get you off of my mind. I have been reading a lot of books about Reconciliation and Forgiveness in relationships.
_________________________________________________

Excellent job Mimi!!!! Stay strong.. Men RESPOND to women who hold their head high with self respect and dignity. Do not let him back easily.
Let him wonder..

One thing I do not agree with is telling him it takes months for withdrawal... This is NOT true when you make them EARN their way back into the realtionship SLOWLY. He needs to feel that MAYBE he has made a BIG mistake. He is starting to wonder, but you have to hold strong. The stronger you appear to him, the more he will pursue you. Let him hurt for awhile.. It will be good for him... If you hold strong he will have no withdrawal.

What you are doing is WORKING... It was great that you hung up the phone first. Remember you want him to WONDER what in the world is going on with you. Do not show all your cards..(DOBSON)

**CRACK**

No, Mimi...that is NOT the 2x4. That sound is the fog breaking. You have done WELL!

Look, you said that there was to be no contact unless certain conditions were to be met. Then you went dark. As I said before, he would begin to squirm, especially with the Plan A you did. Well, he has. And he was the first to break.

Look, he could have continued to try to play games, and hook you back in by calling concerning your son, or something else. Which is what he HAS been doing. But this conversation was different. He called to find out if YOU were still there, and what would it take for HIM to find reconciliation and love. Plan B has had its desired effect look, when my wife came by in January, and saw the kids, she tried to engage me but I was not talking and left the room (told her that she came to see the kids, and if she was done, she could leave). Well, she came into the room 10 minutes later and wanted to talk about what it would take to revive our relationship. Then, and only then, did I sit down and talk with her (for about 4 hours).

In that conversation, I didnt plead or whine. I didnt throw a bunch of "I love yous" at her. My wife, just as your WH, was looking for hope because all had gone dark. They were afraid to jump and we not be there. So, I reiterated basically my position...that I thought reconciliation was possible, but only if OM was gone and we sought counseling...and THEN we would see what we had. Well, she did both over the next few weeks. As she got rid of OM, and went to counseling with me, I switched my plan from B to A. And two months later she was home.

So, you had to talk to him to clarify things. You did not allow it to get off subject, or digress into a relationship talk. This is good. Now, go dark and stay dark. Until he calls and says she is gone and he wants to talk reconciliation. Then you can lower the boom with the MB principles of recovery.

Hopefully, as my wife did, he will read SAA. Actually, that is the first thing she read after she inquired of my about possible reconciliation. And it helped immensely.

Anyway, good job! You are right on par for recovery. I know you will feel anxious now..but let things progress. It still might take somemore time. But, the good thing is...there is now a crack. And for the first time during this, you AND YOUR HUSBAND both know that you are now in control.

In His arms

Yes I am in control. I talked to him one more time and SLAMMED THE DOOR back. I wanted to really make my position clear to him.

He must have seen her at lunch. He was sounding foggish again, clearly wanting to cake-eat, wanting me to help him make some business decisions. I didn't fall for it. Also, he goes so far as to say "I mignt have to act business-like with you and arrange getting the rest of my things but I don't want you to take this to mean that I'm not thinking about reconciliation". It was like he was going to have a show conversation with me in front of her. YUK!!.
Alien Language!!!

My response: I'm stepping back out of your world. I will not be having any further contact with you UNTIL or UNLESS. I told him that I'm going back into my life of learning to live without him. He says "I UNDERSTAND". I hate it when he says that. I did not help him figure out a way to arrange getting the furniture without seeing or talking to me.

He wanted to get my cell phone number again. I gave it to him. He will only get the voicemail.

Positively, he reported that he is really getting to know how she really is now. However, it is not bothering him enough to not want to get the furniture and stuff to try and please her.

DOOR CLOSED! DARKNESS PREVAILS!

Mimi,

U r doing good and appears to be a 'crack' in the fog. His senses appear to be coming back. Let him know when you appreciate his sensible comments.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This time may start to arose some anger with you. Know that this will happen and be prepared. But it does not excuse or minimize what your H needs to do to be 'worthy' of coming back to to his family.

I am proud of you, mimi.

take care,
L.

Orchid:
You are so right about the anger. You may have noticed it in my last post.

Why does the anger come now? I have been waiting for it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:


WS: I need to feel that you really love me...that what you are saying is not just words.

!!<hr /></blockquote>What is this about? I am wondering if he is testing to waters to make sure you still love him while he eats his cake and has it too. Some reassurance? Does he want to make sure that you will be waiting by the phone for him while he has some fun?

I guess, I would want him to know that you won't be sitting by the fireside waiting for him forever and are moving on with your life. You might not be available when he is done with his dalliance. As far as love goes, his actions hardly demonstrate "love" by abandoning his wife and family.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:


My response: I'm stepping back out of your world. I will not be having any further contact with you UNTIL or UNLESS. !<hr /></blockquote>good, good good!!

Melody:

YES!! That's what my second conversation was all about. Making it clear to him that I would not be sitting around waiting for him.

I also made reference to how he abandoned us when he was mentioning how much it hurt him that my son was nonresponsive. I was able to say, "you left us" and he did not try to justify himself as he has done in the past.

However, actions speak louder than words.

It angers me that he wanted me to be understanding about his need to get the furniture despite all this reconciliation talk. He was testing to see if the old me was there, the one that would allow him to disrespect me. I was able to say, getting the furniture would indicate to me that you want to continue what you are doing (or something to that effect). He keeps trying to want me to be understanding of his need to do this. It's bizarre. I guess that's a need that I have fulfilled in his life, being understanding. I've been trying to put my finger on what he needs from me that he is not getting now. I'm afraid he got some it today. I want to make sure that I don't meet these needs in any way at this point.

Mimi,
Stay strong! I can see that it would be so easy to cave at the slightest sign of cracking, to shift to early.
Stay the course...and live your life!

mimi,
Plan B him. YOU have no contact with HIM until he comes to you. Get your book back too, or get another copy.

BLAH:

Thanks for responding!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
Orchid:
You are so right about the anger. You may have noticed it in my last post.

Why does the anger come now? I have been waiting for it.<hr /></blockquote>Why??? IMHO, your mind and body is tired of playing the nice person. Your ENs along with your physical needs have NOT been met and your body is preparing you for a revolt (aka: shutdown, etc.)

Your guard maybe starting to relax since you are more sure where you are and where you are headed. Going backwards is NOT what you will allow. You have better control and know yourself and your abilities much better. You are not apt to fall for as many of the WS' fogese negative comments as you used to yet the timeframe is the same (24 hours in each day), so what do you do? Your body is already 1 step ahead of you, it wants and needs rest. You will get it now that your body is realizing that it has been getting the short end of the stick and now wants to even the score.

Do those feelings sound familar???

L.

ORCHID:

Oh My Goodness! Are you inside my brain and heart?? You have got it. That's exactly what is going on with me.

I feel like I'm on another higher level. I'm still taking it day by day but I feel a lot stronger. I certainly will not fall for as much of his crap.

Of course, a large part of me longs for him and misses him. But like Mortarman says, that is slowly being locked up somewhere.

This is the best Saturday that I have had in months.

I've been communicating with Blah who is a FWS on the Recovery Board.

I asked him about my WS' seeming controlled and fearful of the OW. He responded that he felt that way with his OW because he WANTED TO BE LOVED BY HER. He CRAVED this. This fits with my WS' questions about me loving him. She fills a need of making him FEEL LOVED. .

It's hard for me to accept/acknowledge that there was a point when I was not showing him love since I see myself as loving him so immensely. I guess he was not doing his part in meeting my emotional needs as well ,as I look back on it. Also, around that time, his parents became estranged from him, don't speak to him, and claims to not know exactly why not. I know he feels like our boys don't love him so all he feels like he has is her. YUK!!!

To me, the past does not matter that much because I can't go back and redo that. However, my WS wants to dwell on what led him into the A and how fearful he is of losing the only one that loves him. I usually say I have to have the opportunity to continue to evidence my love. All I can give him now is words.

I guess I can't do anything about his craving for her love right now, can I? I just have to rely on his memories of my Plan A? and the memories of my loving him in the distant past? Yesterday he did say that only the past 4 or 5 years were bad. He used to say our problems had lasted longer.

I guess I was wondering if I should write him another letter?

I know. Stick to my Plan B. Don't take this to mean that I'm not continuing to feel strong today. I'm just obsessing. I'm not feeling weepy or longing for him. He also gave me the gift of knowing that some love for me is still there and I did not have to beg him to show me. I don't know if that's good or bad but I'm feeling better than I've felt in months.

Let me hear from some of you if you are out there.

Thanks.

Mimi,

Seems like you have come upon additional knowledge, some which you knew but now you have another viewpoint. Still in all that info, do you see a 'valid' reason to have an A? You know what needs you and your children have been missing from your H sending himself out the door. There is no excuse for that.

IMHO, when it 'all' comes out in the wash..... there is no excuse. Having an A due to missing some ENs isn't valid. Is it done? Yes and often but no matter what color or light the WS tries to shine on it, the A is a tarnished spot on their family (see you and the children are 1 package, right?).

So right now don't fret over that 'revelation'. Keep up the plan B stuff and let him come that realization with your plan B efforts. That in turn will protect your love until that time. What do I mean by protection? Protect you from you feelings of love, not just for him but for all who your lives touch. re: Should this end in a D, you will still have the ability to love another should that be your choice without carrying sooo much baggage from your current M. Or if there should be recovery in your M, then plan B will help you let him back in so he can earn the privilege of being your family member. It is not his right, he lost that when he had the A. Father/H or not, he lost that right when he took his body parts out the door.

At least that is how I had to view it. This meant I was prepared (may be not fully but semi??), prepared either way.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid:

You are definitely in my Heart and Brain.

I was seeing it just exactly the way you said it.

Just wanted to make sure that I was on the right track. Your opinion/viewpoint is the same as mine.

No excuse to have an A and I told him so yesterday. Then I closed the door to my heart for now. Now we're on a different playing field because he has definitely decided to continue his A on a very intense level--separation, condo and all.

However, it's just like when my father died. Of course, I'm thinking about that today. You want to step back in the past and change things. My father died on a trip out of town. He called me before leaving. I wish I somehow could have said the right thing in that conversation to keep him from going. He sounded like he did not want to go because of his heart disease. I wish I could go back and time and show my WS how much I loved him. I guess that was not meant to be and I must trudge on.

Orchid, whatever happened in your marriage? I'm not sure I've read your story. Did you do Plan B and for how long if you did?

Thanks for all your valuable feedback and support!!

Mimi,

Here's the short version - LOL!!

Nov 2000, d/d after coming back from a MC visit - our 1st (to help us help his very dysfunctional family w/suicide & bipolar disorders), I was in for a rude awakening.... all were asleep with I found 3 phone messages (1 from a man w/info about a rented room and 2 from PBR who ended it by say very softly "ILY"). I work WS up and asked for an explanation. Went from friend to good friend to having an A. Lots of emotion went on...... next day, 2 elders came to our home to meet with WS, he said he understood it was wrong and unscriptural but wasn't sorry. 2 weeks later he was disfellowshipped, then moved out 2 weeks after that. Ow had planned for him to get D so she gave him website info on quickie D and he ordered the D book w/cd. WS moved in to a rented room 1/2 of our current rent. He took backpay income of several thousand dollars and squandered it on his 'new lifestyle'. He was albe to live out there for 3 1/2 months. His income couldn't pay me for CS and his portion of the bills so he didn't pay me. I used up most of our savings to get by. Closed all credit accounts, took my name of his combo credit cards which I never applied for and never used. I covered all bills during this time. Received about 400 from him during that time.

WS took OW to Yosemite on a vacation in Feb and cried in the store (said he missed his family) but Ow was glowing (like a neon sign - heard about it in a gushy letter later). OW got D sometime in April 2001.

OW claimed prego 1 - Nov/Dec 2000
Prego 2 June 2001 and August 2001. That's how she got the name Psycho Babble Rabbit (PBR).

Ow was 45 in 2000. Said she could tell she was carrying a girl though she was only 4 wks preg, never went to the doc, blamed me for her supposed miscarriage.

There is a story about a laundry bag..... won't go into that one but it was humorous.

Ws stuff was sent out of the house.....at least 5 times.

WS moved back in April 2001. Had 3 more incidents of kicking him out one of them landing him in jail for 2 1/2 days due to D V charges.... police came by 2 times (1st time his sister called police due to his actions, 2nd time he called 911 to tell them I was crazy but police arrested him when they saw him pushing me (not a pretty memory), 3rd time we were coming back from a MC session (those sessions are a trigger for me - LOL!! but the couselor is good) anyways I was driving back (50 miles trip) drove by where we had our wedding reception (it was on the way in another town) and started crying. WS couldn't stand it, I got angry, parked the car on the side of the road and started walking..... a couple of guys in a shop called police. WS threatened to kill himself, I felt the same way. Whole story by itself. I had to really calm down, we were able to go home. MB has my story way back there somewhere.

OW called on our anniversary and the day after..... see, OW had supposedly planned their wedding for Aug 01 (our anniversary is Aug - YUCK).

WS continued to see ow until last year and I believe her last phone call was March 03. From then til now she supposedly been gone. But I keep plan B in my back pocket just in case.

WS talked to Steve in Jan 01, he talked a lot but then said he didn't like Steve's technique.....no duh!!! Steve was pro marriage and his head was up the A butte.

I thought we were in recovery in 2002 but we really weren't. I mainly post on GQII because that is where I am most comfortable.

MB has helped me a lot. I dealt with feelings of worthlessness while having to deal with WS A, his family issues(both inlaws and 8 out of 12 siblings - 2 are already dead), my parent's health issues, a estranged sister, work problems, finance issues, child in school, losing a cat to cancer, employee moral issues both my dept and others, personal health issues, etc.

Sounds like a lot and it is. However, I also maintained a lot of support. It came from all sources. I prayed for a clear mind and a calm heart. My support included family, friends, neighbors, child's school, daycare, my boss, workmates, God, MB, my child, reading, MC, doctor, nurse, elders, parents, in-laws, PI, phone company, credit counselor, posting here at MB, while shopping, e-mailing with some MBers, etc.

I had my trying times. H finally came home, physically, mentally and morally (I believe) just this year. It has been a long time.

I had to talk to the wall at times when he first came back. He has to learn to not speak to me with anger when I did not deserve it. He had to find a way to handle his anger (he found an IC but didn't like her words).

He admitted his issue (like an addiction confession) and then was able to commit to working on us. I learned to give him more responsiblity and do less. Say less and expect more.....in some crazy way that is what he wanted and so did I but his actions proved otherwise. He saw his actions were contrary so the onis was put on him to resolve that issue.

I get more than before but not close to where we should be....not yet. I am optimistic but will not allow myself to be used in such a way again. Going to plan B is not scary for me. It is my source of strength. I now know my value and that of my family. The WS even acknowledged his family was priceless. I was able to use his words to help him come out of his A. Told him to put a $$ value on our worth and give it to me, then I would release him from our M. Hmm....... even though the fog, this message came through. OW even offered $ (how tacky), I raised the stakes soo high(played their sicko game) that she was soon out of the league..... that turning point helped the WS see we were worth more than anything that scumbag old hag had to offer. It almost made him a homeless man, he almost lost it all for what? An old hag.

Now he is home and his lesson learned is in front of him every day. We now work on things together and his communication skills are improving. He told me, there was never anything wrong with me, it was him..... that piece he still says. So I said, well I know I have places for improvement so let me know when I step out of line and help me to not get upset then I will do the same for you. He has agreed. We are getting there....... I think we are on the way to recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Wow, Orchid. That is one huge, marathon story. You have an immense amount of strength and stamina.

Actually, I was just dropping in to see how Mimi was. I have kept up with your story Mimi, but being in a different stage of life and M, feel that I really can't say much which will help.

I'm thinking of you and the decisions you are having to make. I agree with Melody Lane about the meaning of his do -you-love-me message. My WH wants to be able to choose between 2 sure bets. He wanted me to lower myself so that I would reassure him that if he couldn't find happiness with OW, then he could always come back to me. Well none of us BS deserve to be treated as second best, you don't deserve to be seen as a back up option Mimi and neither do I.

I have learned a lot from playing hockey. If you play with a defensive strategy of merely reacting to the other team's tactics, you will lose. Big time. Plan B is about playing your own game (metaphorically - not in the "mind games" sense!). If you are clear about what your strategy is and what your contingencies are (eg, if he calls, I will say .....) then you won't be reacting to the WS and the ridiculuous things they say due to the fog.

I have also learned a lot from my job - I am a high school teacher. Consistency, consistency, consistency. If you say you will act in a certain way, then you MUST follow through. If you don't follow through, you undermine yourself. You can have all the right words to say, but actions do speak louder.

I hope you are enjoying the weekend. My birthday party was a night to be remembered! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If we all examine ourselves we can find fault. Where we had needs and couldn't meet spouses due to our need.
But it's never an excuse. Nor should a WS use it. This statement of things haven't been good for 4 or 5 yrs is just another excuse.
did they ever give a thought to the fact that they're needs might not have been fully met because they were the ones cutting BW out of life? OR not meeting their spouse needs?
It's a two way street and I'm so tired of it always being the BW that is supposed to have failed some great test and forgot to kiss the mans [censored]!
As for any of them needing to stick with the OP to find they are loved, they are strictly using another excuse as if to say, "YOU haven't made me feel loved"!
Ah, excuse me, but when was H making us feel loved by sleeping with another woman?
And how is that supposed to make us closer?
Mimi, stick with the plan, but don't give this man an inch when he comes crawling back.
As far as I'm concerned, it's time that the WS took full responsibility for the crap in marriage. And full blame for the problems now existing.
On another site, a BW has a H who had A for 12 yrs, a child with OW and now he wants a second chance? Wants her to forgive and keep working on the marriage?
After all the 12 yrs of lies, deceit?
Mimi, you see to be heading the same place. While H makes up his mind?
Move on girl. You have just begun and will find a greater, better commitment I believe with somebody new!
Your H has had his chance and failed miserably.
LouLou

Loulou:

Wow! My WS pissed you off, girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, he's continuing with his rationalizations. That's why I need you guys. I'm so gullible. It's hard for me to admit to myself the games that he is playing with me.

I have to work on building a life like Orchid's, filling my pie with as much support and from as many different sources as possible. My problem is that I have depended on my WS almost exclusively for emotional support. I have not allowed myself to get that close to others. He encouraged the dependence. Therefore, it seems like the ultimate betrayal. I still feel really connected to him when we speak although he is only giving me crumbs. I can't understand that! I'm finding it hard to reach out to other people. For example,I have a friend that keeps asking me to dinner. She asked me again today but I did not feel comfortable because it would have been with her and her family. I've never done things alone as an adult. It is so weird and scary!!!

Lou, I totally agree with you about how there are no excuses now for my WS. What he is doing is AWFUL and inexcusable . I do not deserve this at all regardless of any of the mistakes that I have made in my M. Claire is also right about how we don't deserve to be considered as a second option.

You guys certainly keep me pumped up when he tries to get to me. That's why we need to stay on this board.

I'm certainly sticking with the PLAN. In order for me to consider taking him back he will have to come begging and pleading. Keep me to my word.

I'm sad about my increased hopelessness this weekend, though. Despite feeling better personally I feel more pessimistic about the outcome of my marriage. I am not all happy about that. It just seems like too many hurdles to jump over.

[ June 15, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi

you have got some great advice from Melody, Orchid and Mortarman (and many others!). I think you are making definite progress.
My advice would be to accept the dinner invitation.

Good luck

S.

Salerio,

Thanks for being there, Bud!!!

I am feeling more and more pissed off as Orchid has predicted.

I realized though that I do feel more content spending time by myself right now. I'm learning to find peace with my aloneness. I'm making my house into MY house and growing pretty flowers outside. I'm not ready to venture out into a lot of social occasions. I continue to love going to my church, though. I absolutely hate going shopping. I hate seeing couples together. It seems that there are a lot of triggers when I venture out.

We'll see what happens today.

Mimi,

you said...

I'm finding it hard to reach out to other people. For example,I have a friend that keeps asking me to dinner. She asked me again today but I did not feel comfortable because it would have been with her and her family. I've never done things alone as an adult. It is so weird and scary!!!

MIMI!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm gonna come over there and swat you with the MB (soft-padded) (pink or blue depending on gender) two by four!!!!

This is exactly the time to conquer those fears and challenges that you reconize.
Learning to do things alone as an adult is a healthy thing for you to learn to do AND enjoy regardless of the state of your marriage...

Chosing not do something is WAY WAY different then being afraid of doing something...

I do see the risk though...
you might use the wrong salad fork...
you might talk with your mouth full
someone might say something funny while you are drinking and you might snort lemonade out your nose...
you might offer to help clean up just being polite... and they let you...(HATE THAT!!!)

Or, OR, Or!!!!!!

YOU might just have a darn good time and realize that they keep asking YOU cause they like YOU...want YOU to have a nice time...and want YOU there...

Feeling uncomfortable is OK...and experiencing by accepting the invitation just makes us stronger..yeah so this is what if feels like...guess what ...I can live through this....

plan A continues even in Plan b....learning and doing and becoming stronger and we get stronger each time we face what scares us...and get through it..

And doing things that are different that don't have a direct correlation to the WS...do help to serve us in helping us learn to face fears..some are little like dinner with a friends...some are huge...like working on your marriage....don't pass up learning opportunities...especially ones that include FOOD!!!!

NOW i am not recomending that if you are deathly allergic to shell fish and you friend serves it you eat a big plateful...cause that Mimi would be scarey...but dinner at friends who has ivited you twice...

offer to bring dessert..and Go go go!!!!
ARK

Mimi

I think ark is spot-on here. Learning to step outside yourself a little is something that will benefit you irrespective of the results of your plan A and plan B.

I liked the following quote I found this morning.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To laugh is to risk appearing the fool.
To weep is to risk appearing sentimental.
To reach for another is to risk involvement.
To expose your feelings is to risk exposing your true self.
To place your ideas, your dreams before a crowd is to risk their loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To live is to risk dying.
To believe is to risk despair.
To try is to risk failure.
But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing.
The person who risks nothing does nothing, has nothing, is nothing.
They may avoid suffering an d sorrow, but they cannot learn, feel, change, grow, love, live.
Chained by their attitudes they are slaves; they have forfeited their freedom.
Only a person who risks is free <hr /></blockquote>Good luck

Mimi,
I'm with Ark on this one! Venture out, accept the invitation and enjoy!
I don't go out a lot, but certainly more than when I was "waiting" for H to come home weekends.
And now I realize, that I do remember how to laugh, joke, listen and have fun!
It's great to hear feedback too! For example, my good friend tells me how the group of people she has introduced me to and with whom I've gone out with on several occasions, think I'm great to be with, funny and that I'm handling my horrible situation with great strength and humour, etc.
It is wonderful too for one's self-esteem to hear those types of comments, especially if they are also coming from the opposite sex!!
So go out, have fun, take your mind off things for a few hours, it does help and gives you something to look forward to.

Office phone ringing repeatedly from 9AM until 11AM but no one leaves a Voice Mail Message until 11:AM. Guess Who? WS saying:"I've been trying to reach you. Guess I'll talk to you later."

He was expecting me to pick up the phone? Hope he's figured out I'm not going to do that by now.

Trying to get the furniture? He should have said so. Wanting to talk about reconciliation? He could have said that too.

Wanting to do more cake-eating? YES. I've figured it out. He needs some conversation. There's something about Mondays. He must feel locked in with her on the weekends. Shouldn't be my concern.

Any thoughts? Let me hear from you guys if you are there. I still continue to need pumping up. Don't want to answer that phone.

Yes. I am now in control. I love it.

A ZILLION HUGS TO YOU especially you Ark, Salerio and Learnin who are encouraging me to venture out. As usual, you guys, are so right on target. A positive thing from all of this is my learning that people really do love me and want to be with me. That is a great esteem-builder. I do need to grow in the ability to go out alone. It just seems that I am faced with so many challenges in this new world of mine that I feel overwhelmed. I'm trying to take it one day at a time. I'm just beginning to feel comfortable being alone with myself. Even when my WS was home, but out there most of the time, I would spend my free time waiting for him and wondering where he was. At least, I don't have that sense of anticipation and worry clogging up my mind. I'm getting there!!!!!

[ June 16, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Good job Mimi!!! He will now be getting curious about what is going on in your mind....Tell him nothing.. let him wonder...

It drives a man crazy when a woman becomes "unavailable".. you are showing confidence and self respect, and this is what men respond to......

When he does talk to you and tries to find out if you will take him back you HAVE to tell him that you are not sure what you want.. that maybe this was for the best...(in other words, do and say the things the WS does because they are the things that get people to pursue.)

Do not forget to hang up first if he does get you on the phone.. Just be business like, do some small talk, get on to the matter he called about, then tell him you have to go.....

I have helped many women get their men back... Trust me... What you are doing works the best of anything to get them to come around... Do not take him back easily.. He needs to wonder if he has lost you and maybe made a mistake...

KEEPMVN:

I hear you loud and clear!

Another call and no message left at 1:00 PM.

AS THE FOG TURNS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ June 16, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

[ June 16, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Good job Mimi!!! He will now be getting curious about what is going on in your mind....Tell him nothing.. let him wonder...

It drives a man crazy when a woman becomes "unavailable".. you are showing confidence and self respect, and this is what men respond to......

When he does talk to you and tries to find out if you will take him back you HAVE to tell him that you are not sure what you want.. that maybe this was for the best...(in other words, do and say the things the WS does because they are the things that get people to pursue.)

I have helped many women get their men back... Trust me... What you are doing works the best of anything to get them to come around... Do not take him back easily.. He needs to wonder if he has lost you and maybe made a mistake...

MB is not about playing head games. It's not about making him wonder if he lost you or not.

While separated in Plan B, you don't date, you don't even give the appearance of dating. You are married and that's what you tell people.

He should KNOW what he needs to do to discuss POSSIBLE reconciliation. It was in your Plan B letter. If he won't end the affair, then you don't even discuss reconciliation.

Do not forget to hang up first if he does get you on the phone.. Just be business like, do some small talk, get on to the matter he called about, then tell him you have to go.....
Plan B is no communication, especially no small talk.

[ June 16, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Mimi,
I wonder if you would send me via email and I will tell you about my WS,and I KNOW exactly what you are going through.I am unable to go on MB as often as I wish, I hardly post but I read them. Please write and I will be completely open and honest to you about the pain I had gone through and still going through, OK. I promised.
wangiaja@yahoo.com
Wangi

Well done Mimi

Let me echo some of what has been said already. Plan B isn't about playing mind games. However, a side effect of it is that WS will miss you and wonder what you are doing. You are seeing the evidence of this now. Remember that the opposite of love is apathy - he is anything but apathetic. In fact he is almost obsessed with contacting/conversing with you. At one level he probably wants you to LB him so he can be 'validated' in his appalling behaviour. At a deeper level he wants to know if you still love him. For my money the kicker with plan B is that your plan B letter (and your plan A behaviour) show unequivocally that you love him. However, your plan B behaviour forces him to chose to accept this love on your (perfectly reasonable!) condition that it exclusive to you and OW is out of the picture. Right now he is following the script (as he was before), but now you are in the directors chair, not him! His interest says to me that his next step will be to get depressed about what he has lost. Sooner or later he will look again at the plan B letter (bet that he has done this MANY times already) and make the big decision - he wants you back!

Regarding the going out etc. - while the primary purpose of plan A is to demonstrate a willingness to meet his needs AFTER the A, a side effect is that you are making changes to your behaviour. Similarly plan B is about you. You will be a better person because of the plans, even though that is not their principal motivation.

Keep up the good work.

S

Mimi,

Keep praying for the clear mind and calm heart..... it is being put to the test and you are doing a good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Keepmvn4wrd:


I have helped many women get their men back... Trust me... What you are doing works the best of anything to get them to come around... Do not take him back easily.. He needs to wonder if he has lost you and maybe made a mistake...<hr /></blockquote>TRUER words were never spoken! Taking him back or letting him back into your life too easily does nothing but lead to heartache. Continue to hold out, Mimi! Continue to deny the junkie his fix. You are doing GREAT!!

I am so sad. I don't know what is wrong with me. This is so hard. I don't know if I can take this anymore.

I was so stupid. I did an impulsive driveby to her house. I think I saw him drop off OW and her daughter. They ran laughing from the car, running in the rain. Now it looks like they're turning into one big happy family. He doesn't even call my son. It was better for me not to know this.

I just want to give up on all this. What's the use, guys? I just think he does not love me anymore. I know the Harleys would disagree. How could I ever trust him again? This is not the husband that I thought I had. I am tired of living this life. I want to live a free, authentic life, not caught up in not being able to answer my phone. I want to call him and tell him how I feel about this and I also want to have a few words, well more than a few words, with her. She's also wanting my husband to be her daughter's father. That makes me want to throw up. The problem is that it seems like he's going along with it.

I can't stop obsessing and worrying about this. I don't know what to do anymore. And he was just calling me today.

He plays too many games.

[ June 16, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

quote:
MB is not about playing head games. It's not about making him wonder if he lost you or not.

Chris,

This is not about playing games. This is real life. If you have studied what really happens when a WS returns instead of worrying about plan A and Plan B so much, you would see that what I am wanting her to do WORKS. And that is what I am most concerned with, is what WORKS. The WS comes back much faster and WANTING to be in the relationship when you show them that you can and will live without them. I have seen this work again and again and again. If you do not want to do it, fine, but you are wrong and are not looking at REALITY if you can't see that what I suggested works far better than anything. If she keeps up what she is doing, you will see it again....

What wakes most of the BS on this site wake up?
It is when they "sense" that the WS is pulling away and is vague. Suddenly the BS starts begging and pleading and will do anything to change. They say they never realized how much they loved the spouse until they lost them. So, we KNOW it works to wake people up. I did not INVENT the rules, just observe reality. Reality shows me that time and time again the WS comes back "just" after the BS seems to have moved on and stopped trying everything to save the relationship. I have many saved threads to back up my views.

You are on the right track Mimi. Hold the line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

KeepMvn:

I agree with you and follow you. I need your help. Keep checking on me. You see, I can easily backslide.

My WS does respond to the approach that you suggest as we can see already!!!

BTW, I feel better after my venting!!

I thought I had stopped the drivebys. I don't know what got into me.

[ June 16, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi

you are doing fine. Keep it up. I know it is difficult, but just remember the goal. You have to win the war not each individual battle.
Think about what he has done - he tried desperately to contact you - remember what I said in the earlier post as to why he is probably doing this. He failed (because you stuck to plan B). How would that make him feel? He will feel anxious and desperate. Where can he go now that you have rejected his overtures? OW. You know this. This is what plan B is. If you hadn't done the drive by you mightn't have even thought about it. You did and you saw him. But you don't know how he is feeling inside. I'll bet you that he isn't happy, but he is thrashing around emotionally looking for something to cling to in the wreckage of the life that he has made. YOU will almost certainly be at the forefront of his mind during this time. You will, IMO, see a lot of this behaviour over the next few weeks as YOUR plan B takes hold of HIS life. He will try to engage you. He will fail. He will be depressed. He will go to OW for solace. She will LB and he will get more depressed (even if she doesn't LB). He will try harder to engage you. He will fail again. Etc. Each time he springs back in your direction he will have more momentum. Eventually he will break through the wall of fog and cut the elastic cord holding him to OW. You will have won.

Hang in there.

Mimi,

Salerio is right. Although you saw one picture in one moment during your drive by (I did a lot of drive bys), I want you to think about what he is actually going through.

Okay, maybe they had a nice day together. Now he drops her off. And then later tries to call you. Ask yourself "Why?" Because he is NOT sold yet on what he is doing.OW may be having a great time. But it appears, just as with my wife, that your WH is not entirely onboard. especially after your Plan A.

Now, in Plan B, he is stuck 24/7 with her. No more Mimi-fixes. And the OW has to meet ALL of his needs. And guess what? She is not equipped to do that. She is happy because she has him 24/7 now...that you have backed away. In her mind, she has "won." so, she sits back now, happy in the knowledge that she doesnt have to fight anymore. She can let her guard down.

One thing the experts talk about is that a HUGE reason most of these relationships fail isthat eventually, they stop being on their best behavior in fantasyland (eg. the FOG), and begin to see each other clearly. This is when the LBs start. As was stated above, as the OW begins to LB your WH, he will try to fix things by contacting you (believe me, I KNOW!). But, now that you are in Plan B, he cant reach you. So, he goes back to his new life, with the beginnings of what will be great frustration. And the more frustrated he gets, the more he will try to contact you.

Even when my wife showed up at my door in January, wanting to know if it was possible to reconcile, it still took another 6 weeks before she was ready to fully end things with the OM. So, even when he starts cracking, you will have to stay on plan for awhile longer, so that he FULLY comes out of it.

I agree and disagree somewhat with the discussion about making him jealous and think he is losing you. Look, there is enough fantasy going on out there without you perpetuating it. But, what his mind invents may be far worse than anything you can cook up. Example? There is no need to tell him or pretend that you are moving on, or might have someone else. First, that may just give him justification for what he is doing. You see, he is committing adultery. You tell him it is wrong. And then he sees you possibly doing the same. Thus, maybe what he is doing isnt so wrong. No, you must maintain your position.

But, I agree that jealousy is also a powerful force. It was very powerful with my wife. But the thing was, her jealousy was due to NOT KNOWING what was going on. she would try to get information on my whereabouts, etc. and get nothing. She might try to call and talk to the kids and I had a babysitter and was out. Now, I might have been out with a few guys shooting pool. But, I didnt play it up like I had a big date. I just made sure that she received NO information. This way, her mind began to play tricks on her and she felt that I MIGHT be moving on, thus increasing her pressure.

In the end of all of this, she came to me, accusing me of seeing other women and moving on. Of course, it was then that I could prove that I didnt...that it was all made up in her mind. So, now she knows that I have always been committed to our marriage. But while she was in the fog and I was in Plan B, she had NO IDEA what I was doing. I didnt have to pretend or to do things I shouldnt. I didnt have to lie. Myself and people around me just shut off information to her. And her imagination took off from there.

You must maintain your morals. Lying, cheating, etc is the purview of the WS and OP. do not play their game. But since it is their game, they will believe that you will play it also. So, by shutting down all info, you let their sick little minds that are under the influence of the fog, go crazy. And in the end, they find out how great you really are.

Hang in there. Just assume that they are together EVERYDAY and stop driving by. Concentrate on your life. GO DARK! Then let their little game explode on themselves. You are close. Dont blow it now.

In His arms.

So the goal is to get the ws back in the shortest time frame regardless of what how you get them back?

When he does talk to you and tries to find out if you will take him back you HAVE to tell him that you are not sure what you want.. that maybe this was for the best...(in other words, do and say the things the WS does because they are the things that get people to pursue.)
So in Plan B it's okay to try and manipulate the ws by not being honest?

You must maintain your morals. Lying, cheating, etc is the purview of the WS and OP. do not play their game.
BINGO!
As mortarman pointed out, if the ws is wondering what's going on simply because you are not having communcation with the, then that is okay and it may have some benefits. But doing anything to perpetuate those thoughts is wrong and will not help the realtionship.

[ June 17, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Hello You Guys:

I find ALL of the perspectives and support on this Board to be helpful to me. I don't want any of you to go away. I need you ALL .

I don't perceive KeepMvn as moving far from the basic principles of PLAN B. Its the same effect of the BS figuring out how to go on with life without the WS. Also, not engaging in the whining and pleading, being the pursued not the pursuer, being the mouse and not the cat, etc.

For me, my WS is probably 99.9% sure that I will not be unfaithful because of being a devout Christian. I don't believe in divorce, concerned about judgement day, etc. I think he would want me to be unfaithful in order to justify his actions. I have heard him say, "you're only human". He might be WONDERING about what I am doing since I tend to have a high drive and have not had SF. However, unfaithfulness is probably not a major concern of his. He is probably moreso WONDERING why I am not asking him for SF this time. This is usually how he has been able to reel me into his cake-eating. He probably would comply if I asked. So his WONDERING about me reacting differently is a good thing. I'm not being predictable.

More than anything he's probably anxious that I won't wait around for him or that I don't LOVE or CARE for him anymore. He seems to want me to be his second option if things don't work out with the OW. I have had to face the reality of this and it is not a pretty picture. I guess it's an ALIEN thought process. He keeps saying, "This probably isn't going to work out", almost like I would feel sorry for him if it didn't. I can hardly imagine him wanting to be with someone like her. I have to ask myself who is he really? He's no longer the man I thought he was or was he like this always? When he is with her, is he my same husband only with another person or is he different with her? When I am with him, he seems like himself. It has also seemed as if he has wanted me to help him escape from her. It makes me want to rescue him but of course I can't. It's so confusing.

I know I want joy. I know I'm tired of all this drama in my life. I wish I could hate him and not care about what he is doing. However, I can't get him off of my mind. I wish there was some way that I could really distract myself from this all.
Steve Harley says that since my WS is my TEAMMATE in life that I will feel this way but I am getting tired and want relief which I have not been able to find. I think that's why I do the drivebys. I don't know what to do with myself.

Let me hear from you.

[ June 17, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I'm not trying to get anything started here, just help guide you on the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't thnk km4v is too far aff the mark either. Maybe I am just percieving it wrong.

I thnk most of what you said is correct. However,...
He is probably moreso WONDERING why I am not asking him for SF this time.

He keeps saying, "This probably isn't going to work out", almost like I would feel sorry for him if it didn't.

When I am with him, he seems like himself.
All this seems as if you are in contact with him. Are you? Are you in Plan B?

It's not easy. Not having contact helps you to not worry about what he is doing or thinking.

This is the main reason a ws should end ALL contact with the op after the affair is over. Helps to keep from obsessing after them.

Hi Chris:

No. I'm not having contact. That's what I don't understand. I can't seem to stop the obsessing and longing. The PLAN B has not worked for me. Maybe it was that phone conversation on Friday (when he asked for clarification of PLAN B letter) that got me back into this withdrawal mode.

In my last post,I was mostly referencing what I experienced when we were in contact from February to April (cake-eating time)and during the false reconciliation time period of three weeks during April.

I can't seem to stop the obsessing and longing. The PLAN B has not worked for me. Maybe it was that phone conversation on Friday (when he asked for clarification of PLAN B letter) that got me back into this withdrawal mode.
Possibly. Any withdrawal is set back to day one with contact.

After a time, one learns to deal with necessary contact (kids, finances, etc) and it doesn't reset your "clock".

Even with ZERO contact, you are not going to simply quit thinking about them. After all, you were married/together for xx years and have a shared history. You're gonna grieve and your gonna remember things that happened because of all this. That's okay.

But after time, you will stop obsessing about him and quit letting your memory (of him) influence your decisions and attitude.

Mimi

My opinions:

my WS is probably 99.9% sure that I will not be unfaithful
as you probably were with him. Be assured that as your plan B progresses, that 0.1% doubt will rapidly increase. Let him doubt. Don't deliberately mislead or anything, just 'go dark' to use mortarmans great phrase.

He probably would comply if I asked
Of course he would, which shows you that your plan is working. But you aren't going to ask, and that will make him wonder even more.

More than anything he's probably anxious that I won't wait around for him or that I don't LOVE or CARE for him anymore.
Of course he is, except that your plan B letter told him that you do, but he has to choose to come back fully, not as a cake-eater.

He keeps saying, "This probably isn't going to work out",
That is him wanting to come back. He wants you to make it easy for him - then he can wait till he is sure before coming back. You are now in plan B, which makes him choose. He will be comparing an idealised romanticised version of you (from your plan A) to an real-life, no make-up, smelly feet, grumpy in the morning, leaves the cap off the toothpaste version of her - in other words completely an inversion of what he had during his cake eating phase (although I'm sure your feet don't smell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Pretty soon, in fact probably already, he will be fantasising about an OW - and that OW will be you.

When he is with her, is he my same husband only with another person or is he different with her?
He is different for now, but slowly he will become a guilt-ridden unhappy version of himself, i.e. a totally different person to what OW believes him to be. She will do likewise. Thats why Affairs don't work.

It has also seemed as if he has wanted me to help him escape from her
He does. But you can't do it for him. You can only help him once he makes the jump himself. He's looking longingly at the trampoline right now though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mimi

I really think you are doing a good job and admire you for being so strong. you may not see yourself that way, but later you will.

I have been reading your thread in hopes that it would help me with my own situation and some of it has, but mine is very different at least the situation with my WH. So, I hope you will forgive me if I ask some on here for help.
God Bless you.

Mortarman,

If you see this, would you reply to my post on GQII about my situation. I feel like I'm the only one coming here who is in this situation and I really respect your advice. My financial situation will only allow me to seek free advice right now, and I have read some of your other posts helping others. I would really appreciate it if you have time if you could just give your opinion. Let me know if you would be willing to and I will post there, otherwise I will not.
Thanks and God Bless you either way.
cajeanie

UPDATE!!!! I'M ABLE TO MOVE ON!!!

I'm feeling surprisingly uplifted this evening. I just met with a realtor and WILL be putting my house on the market July 1. We talked about me purchasing a quaint cottage in an old part of town which I can renovate to my liking. A place for me and my boys, excuse me, young men. My youngest son will be going to college next year anyway. My older son is already out of town starting his senior year of college. I have not told him about the A, by the way. He has a bad temper which scares me.

My WS would not miss the shell of this house. He would miss what I have put in it. That's one of my gifts, making a house into a home. So wherever I put my stuff is where he might want to go if he decides to come back. OW would have a hard time topping me on decorating; that's probably causing a lot of LBing in his condo as he waits for her to make it comfy. Now my cooking, that's a different story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think it will help me to start anew and to have decorating a new house of my own as a project. I'm feeling inspired!!!

I haven't heard from WS today. Realtor couldn't believe all of his stuff is still here, including a closet full of clothes. She's a friend of mine.

Also going to a new book club at Barnes and Noble tonight.

Thanks so much for all the continued support. I need it.

Mimi,
Glad to hear you're keeping yourself occupied and looking towards the future, cottage and all.
I know the longing and obsessive thinking about WS, I'm only into day 4 of Plan B and so far not too bad, but still...
I'm more worked up over my family's attitude and lack of understanding, I've argued with 16 yr. old S every day since my brother made his summer job offer!
I'm stickin to my guns on this one. I want him home with us this summer.
Keep up the good work! I'm following your posts closely.

Learnin:

I've been doing a lot of arguing with my 16 year old, too. I've realized that he's been dealing with this all in his own teenage way. He's concerned about me a lot but in the narcissistic viewpoint of a teenager he also does not want this to rock his world.

The house thing really has made a difference with me. I was looking for such a distraction.

I think this was his next move.

WS and I went to our workout place almost daily, as some you may remember, from January until he left. We went at the same time each day, after I got off of work.

I've continued to go BUT I changed my schedule to going later in the evening in order to avoid the trigger and to make sure that I did not run into him. The staff kept asking me where he was until I finally told them that "he left me". They were, surprisingly to me, immediately sympathetic of me. I told you I get surprised by how much people like me. Anyways, I guess he hasn't been going.

Today he reportedly showed up at the same time that we usually went. Did he think that I would be that dumb as to keep going to the gym at the same time? In fact, I always circle around to make sure he's not there before I go in.

My girls said that they could not help but give him a cold reception. They felt that he could tell that they were not too happy with him. He usually tries to converse with them and did not try anymore after they did not act glad to see him.

It must have brought back memories for him! We had a great time there. Remember I used to wear my special outfits? One time we even played basketball. I had a hard time going there right after he left but I had to keep this bod in shape. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Couldn't get me on the phone so he thought he would search for me???

We actually haven't seen each other in about a month.

Mimi, just the word "cottage" gives me such warm, peaceful feelings. LOL
It sounds so beauitful already! And a cozy place you can make into your personality again.
And you're keeping at the workouts for the body shape, Great attitude girl!
You're doing a good job, just keep at it. Let H wonder all he wants, but keep moving on with your plans.
I would bet it won't take to long for him to miss all he had with you. And the bimbo will become bad baggage. He got himself into this fix, he can get himself out of it the same way!
If he can walk out and leave you hanging, how much easier it would be for him to just pack up and walk out on her! And never look back.
I hope that day comes soon, but do not give in until he's on your terms. He's had it all on his too long.
Lou

Mimi,

He is following the script. He cant reach you on the phone. So he shows up where he thinks you will be, but can also say to everyone that it was a meaningless thing that he ran into you. except, YOU WERENT THERE!! Good for you! This is the essence of Plan B. I am betting my bottom dollar that he is missing you. And if you had those feelings about being there and remembering being with him, you know he is having the same feelings.

He is also now wondering where you are, physically and emotionally. He cant even find you in your usual haunts. Fear will begin to take over for him, as he starts to realize that he may have made a huge mistake. My wife did the same thing.

My bet is that he is turning the corner. The heat is rising on him, and all it is going to take is a huge LB by the OW and he will move (and believe me...she WILL LB him!).

Hang in there. Stay one step ahead of him. It is almost fun to now have the power, isnt it? To sort of watch them squirm in their fog. Now, it isnt you wondering what is going on with him, or where your life is going. Now he is unsure and is losing control. The shoe is now on the other foot.

Keep us posted.

In His arms.

Dear Mimi:

I don't know if you have read my most recent post, but I will soon be starting Plan B. I hope I can be as strong as you. I am glad to hear that other people are giving him the cold shoulder. My WH is under the impression that nothing will really change after he leaves. He thinks our mutual friends will feel the same towards him, as well as other people in the community. I don't plan to tell everyone about his A-but I will let them know that the choice to leave was his and not mine. I am looking forward to moving on with my life, but I am also very scared. I am hoping that Plan B breaks through the fog, but I also know that there is a chance that it won't and he may in fact end up with her or with someone else altogether. This is so unbelieveably hard. My prayers are with you.
Pat

Next Move:

He's taken upon himself to arrange refinancing the house so that MY MORTGAGE PAYMENT will be $1000 lower. He calls to tell me this (VOICEMAIL) like he's done such a glorious thing. All I have to do now is go by the bank "TODAY" and sign the paperwork, he says. Of course, he probably did not tell the banker that we are separated. He was talking on my VOICEMAIL while he sat in her office. He seems to have forgotten that I'm putting the house on the market in the next couple of weeks. I've had to E-Mail him about this. I guess the goal is for me to try to reach him and of course to stay in the house. YUK!!!

He seems to be using all of these indirect strategies.

[ June 19, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

He is "fishing." As you said, he cant find his "in" with you. Just continue on path. When you guys get to recovery, there will be plenty of time to refinance. Or sell, if that is what you want to do. Right now, just stay dark.

He is flopping around now like a fish out of water. The emotional pain for him is increasing everyday. You are doing great!

In His arms.

I did end up talking to him about the refinancing and I guess I will go along with it. It will be a huge financial savings for ME. No mortgage payment until August and of course the lower payments. Our house is high end and probably won't sell quickly. His thinking makes a lot of sense. I can still sell the house. I guess you're rignt, MM. He's trying to find an "in" with me because this does not benefit HIM at all UNLESS WE RECONCILE. What it does now is to increase MY net from the alimony/child support payment since I am responsible for paying the mortgage out of that. I guess he can now still live under the illusion of fulfilling some family responsibility. I'm not exactly sure what his purpose is other than to try to connect with me again today.

If we do reconcile, he can come live where I live or we can buy a new house. I don't want to live in my house anymore. Too many triggers, too many bad memories of him leaving out of there and going AWOL and of course the current ultimate abandonment. It will mean the world to me to move on out of there.

Let me hear from you guys. Any other thoughts?

Also, its the old cat and mouse game. He almost caught me at the bank. He said "Are going to go by and sign now?" I caught myself, didn't go, arranged to go this afternoon.

Hey Mimi,

Here is an exercise for you!

Write a reply in this topic around 3 paragraphs long about what you did in the last week.

Do not use any reference to your h or anything relating to him in any way.

Plan B is about you, not him.

I will do Chris' suggested exercise as soon as I get chance today.

I just want to say that I now realize that I may be enabling the A again today by allowing my WS to be relieved of guilt by his using his pull to help me financially. I kept wondering what the stake in this is for him. He probably got jumpstarted after losing out yesterday.

The contact with him starts the withdrawal process again for me. However, isn't that the same for him? Doesn't he start to miss me and LB with her? I know,I know, it's not about him. PLAN B is for me.

MM, the plan is to go dark again. Rignt this minute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm looking forward to meeting with a contractor this afternoon to give me an estimate on repairs needed at the house.

[ June 19, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:

The contact with him starts the withdrawal process again for me. However, isn't that the same for him? Doesn't he start to miss me and LB with her?
.<hr /></blockquote>Its not really the same because you are the one who is controlling the contact and the less contact you allow him the more he wants to see you. You, on the the other have an element of control that doesn't leave you wanting to that degree.

I agree that the refi deal probably makes him feel like a "hero." He provided for you, which was a great guilt alleviator. Oh well, if it earned you $1000 a month and no mortgage payment until August maybe it will be worth it. His guilt will probably set back in by the weekend and you can enjoy the extra money for months to come.

I think you did good by avoiding him at the bank and hope you continue to go dark. I think it is working wonderfully, especially for your sanity. BTW, did you get a good rate? I just refied my house for 5% and saved bookoo money!

Mortarman is right as usual.

Talked to my realtor. WH was cooking up a scheme to keep me stuck in this house, waiting for him.
It's too complicated and really not necessary to explain here. Let me just simply say that I will not be refinancing my house.

Onward into the darkness!!!

I just want to say that for me it's not getting better as time goes on in Plan B. Somehow I think it's probably not working out well for them. However, that is not helping me out with the loneliness and the sadness that starts to set in because it's the weekend. Weekends are supposed to be fun. Everybody looks forward to them at work. I just want to go to sleep.

I'm upset that my WS tried to keep me stuck in this house. I found out that he was going to combine another loan we had with the house mortgage loan so that the total loan balance due would be more than the house is worth. My monthly payments for the two loans would be lower but there goes the equity needed for me to buy a new house. Basically, he was keeping me stuck in this house while he is able to remain in his new condo. I would have a lot more money available per month but I would be stuck here with all the memories, without being able to start a new life.

I sent him an E-Mail saying NO to the refin. I haven't heard anything else from him.

I'm going to try to think of something fun to do or at least something that will hold my interest.

Keep in touch this weekend if any of you are out there.

[ June 20, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hi Mimi,

Glad you figured out his refi scheme before it was too late. What a mess that would be.

Weekends are the hardest, aren't they? I will be around all weekend and will watch your thread. I hope you do find something to do this weekend. Do you like to read? I am reading an AWESOME murder mystery right now titled Cabinet of Curiosities.

I do love to read and I am reading a wonderful novel The Secret Life of Bees . Who is the author of your murder mystery, Melody?

The authors are Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, whom I have never heard of before. This is a very good fiction novel, one of the best I have read in years! Is your book fiction or non-fiction? I am a big history buff and don't usually read fiction, but every once and a while I'll dive into one.

Melody:
It's fiction novel, a Barnes and Noble paperback bestseller about a young girl in the South in the early 1960s. Nothing too romantic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . There are bits of history regarding the Civil Rights Movement.

I'm feeling less sad this morning than I did yesterday when it seemed that I was facing this long dark time called weekend. There's a lot of things around here that need to be done in order to get ready to sell. I can focus on that and making things look pretty.

However, I do have this question. My only hope is for them to LB each other, right? That will probably happen, right? I think it's important for coping for me not to give up hope. Reading BLAH's thread is really discouraging because he sounds just like my WH who left me last time during his three week withdrawal. The WSes sound so much IN LOVE with the OW. I have to stop myself from thinking that my WS and the OW are falling more and more IN LOVE,doing more and more special couple things during their extended amount of time together. I keep thinking back to when my WH and I were falling in love and spent all of our time together as college students. I keep wondering if he is doing those same things with her. In his mid-life, he is probably trying to redo that time. He has said that he feels that this is his LAST CHANCE.

So, there's nothing I can do about their relationship except DO NOTHING?

Ok. Back to work....into the darkness.

[ June 21, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, glad you didn't go with the refi. For one, he may have been doing that so he could cut his mmonthly payments to you! and have more money for him and her!
If you're going to sell, get it on the market soon. Best time for selling is between April and August due to people relocating before children reenter school.
Interest rates keep coming down so a few months from now you can still refi if you change your mind.
The market is booming on resales and it's a sellers market right now.
Stick with your plan. you're doing great.
Lou

However, I do have this question. My only hope is for them to LB each other, right?
Don’t worry what happens with him...

That will probably happen, right? I think it's important for coping for me not to give up hope.
Yes, they will lovebust.

The WSes sound so much IN LOVE with the OW.
Weren’t you that way once? Meaning that he is not worried about how relationships work. You ARE and are learning all this stuff that HE is not.

I keep wondering if he is doing those same things with her. In his mid-life, he is probably trying to redo that time. He has said that he feels that this is his LAST CHANCE.
They all say that...

So, there's nothing I can do about their relationship except DO NOTHING?
Not too much. EVEN if you were in Plan A, there would be very, very little you could do. Except be in contact and get ulcers.

You ARE doing something about their relationship. Out of the frying pan & into the fire, so to speak.

Plan B. Do something for you. Don’t worry what he is doing. It is very likely he is sitting around watching televesion. Relationships CANNOT go on constantly on the run doing “fun“ things. Too much work, too much time, too much money.

If you keep worrying about him and what he is doing, when will he return, etc. it’ll drive you batty. Also, what if he doesn’t return? It is a possibility. You need to be able to detach. This is what Plan B is all about.

Do start to look at everything you do as something YOU want, not whether you would do it if your h was around or wonder if he is doing this with her.

The previous “exercise” I suggested is to help you start to focus on you. Only you, no one else.
Stop making every statement about him, even if all the thoughts are. Later the thought will not always be about him.

Mimi - I don't think I've posted to you before but I have read both chapters of your saga and would like to add my support for you now. Plan B IS difficult. I've been in strict Plan B almost 6 months. WH moved in w/OW New Year's Eve, I've had only 1 letter and 2 emails from him since then, which may or may not be due to the conditions of my Plan B letter.

At first, like you, I wondered constantly about what WH was doing - when would he come to his senses? How could he ever be happy with OW? How could he step out of our family life so easily? And on and on. Sometime in March, I started to realize that I was changing. I had to take care of myself. I had to do the things WH used to do, so I did them. I missed the "self" I used to be, but I knew that she was inside me and that, as the stress of my life decreased, my "self" would return, maybe stronger than ever.

That remains to be seen, but at least I'm still here. I have promised both of my kids (S25 and D23) that I will not abandon them. That I will try to keep our family intact, our lifestyle ongoing, as long as I possibly can. I'm tired. It's hard to do it all myself, especially under stress, but I believe it's worth it.

I know you want your WH back, so do I, if he's willing to make the changes necessary for reconciliation. From your posts you seem to have had a very nice life. I can relate to one of your posts about having a hard time socializing. Your H was your world. So was mine, and I'm finding it hard to go out, too. For me it was just easier to stay home in our nest and relax, let other people come to us. You know, though, I'm trying to overcome the inertia and socialize, and no matter what happens in my M, going out will be a good thing for me. Other behavior changes will be good, too. Sometimes it's all about how you look at it.

Just wanted to let you know you're not alone, things will get better, you will get stronger. You're doing a good job at a very difficult task.
Thinking of you.
Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 48
M 25 yrs
S 25, D 23
OW 44 widow/coworker
D-day 7/02
Several months of going back and forth btwn me and OW
WH moved in w/MIL 10/02
WH moved back home 12/02
WH moved in w/OW 12/31/02
I receive letter from WH 1/29/03 saying he's not sure what he wants, but he still loves me
I send Plan B letter 2/10/03
Only minimal email contact since then, about finances and D's graduation

I want to let all of you know how much I really appreciate your posts today. It's great to know that I am not really out here alone.

I tried to focus on me today as much as I could. I went to look at potential houses to buy. I bought some more flowers to plant. I bought some special food treats that I like. At least, I just didn't stay in the house. I also had a long telephone conversation with a girlfriend who was checking up on me. That was new. I'm really not a phone person. She relates to me as she is also grieving but over the death of her young daughter from breast cancer. We talked about how insensitive people can be who have not been through these traumatic experiences.

I still felt as if I was just going through the motions, like I'm living in a dream, like this can't be what my life has come to. However, this is it. I have got to figure out a way to accept this. This is no way for a person to live, so joyless. I want to be in love again, part of a couple. I'm tired of being alone. I know it sounds unhealthy but I sometimes think just having my WS' presence would be better than this.

Yes, I'm still struggling here in the dark but at least I have you guys to keep me on track. I've been wanting to make that call or to do that driveby but, at least, I've been successful in avoiding those self-defeating behaviors.

Silly question that's been bugging me... I know I shouldn't focus on him but... Why do you think my WS had his VOICEMAIL turned off? I can only reach him through E-Mail. Did OW demand this so there would be NC with me? or is he antsy about being always available to me? Who knows in that alien mind? However, I think it's irresponsible in that there might be an emergency with me or one of the children. I guess the police could always go find him at the condo. I'm obsessing here as usual.

[ June 21, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

((((((((((mimi1254)))))))))

Separation or plan B can be so difficult I know! I'm sorry that this is happening to you...

I'm just going to share how I have coped with this and what have worked so far.. maybe I could throw some light for you????

Well let me tell you I been following advice... like if someone told me I should go and walk upside down or get into a tub with candles I'll do it... Anything! anything that might work you know? out of desperation? to try to get my life back and be out of this limbo?

I just read in a book that in this times we are used and espect instant changes.. fast food, microwaves, one-hour dry cleaning... When in true deep changes takes time. Well I wanted an instant change also, but came to realize that THAT would not happen. I was just in a brink to ask D not because I was ready for it but just not to be in limbo? Like no matter what I want a different life? Well later I thought it over and followed some advice that in the first year if you can don't do or take any life changing desicions.

Well I'm there, also like you my circle of friends and family is SO tight that I beleived I would never meet anyone else. Well I'm not planing to do that but I also hate loneliness so I can understand how are you feeling. When and if that time comes I'll ask for ideas.

Now I'm not afraid to be alone anymore, you got kids and got advantadge over me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

So things that have worked for me... And I mean really worked.

Have a chat friend and share all this time with her.
Ladies chat! Is so good therapy and I have a lot of laugh there (best medicine).
Don't see things that bad or get ideas in my mind. I mean for all I know H can be still with OW, but I don't really care right now, this is MY time to fix MYSELF. And I'm using it for that.
I'm into a diet and getting a better body (boosting my self esteem).
Reading some books on codependency and sharing them with a friend who is also reading it so we don't feel alone... Care to join??
Concentrating on work more now.

Basically we run from sadness and feelings that we don't want to feel for so long, that when we are confronted with them, we want to keep runing... Well don't run anymore. Experience those, address your issues, take this time to take care on you and grow as a person. Don't think on H, there is so little you can do now about him. In time if he comes back you'll be stronger and if not you'll be a very different person that he will not matter anymore.

I know you see your life hopeless without him, I did the same myself. But let me tell you life is not hopeless without him it will be without you. Nothing last forever as much as we want and although this reality shot causes us great pain, I think you also need to take the good things out of it.

Take care of YOU!

Mimi

Hang in there. This whole thing is hell, but it will get better. Keep up the activities and posting here. I got new resolve in many areas over the weekend - of course I got down about others, but thats life - two steps forward and one back - but that is still a net one step forward.

It is lonely - I can really relate to that. However, I just think of the pain I felt and feel about WW's behaviour - I'm not going to do that to ANYONE. I am doing my best to get her back. If she chooses not to, then I'll be a better person for someone else.

Mimi, shutting the voice mail is just another hurt. It's insensitive and I know how you feel because when My H went to see Ow for a week, he didn't tell us anything about where he'd be. No contact ways at all.
I had to find the secret emails to see how to call him. And I did!
But you wonder what if one of us, me, children, grandchildren get ill or even die!Dont they care?
Mine also flew just after 9/11 which was worst time to fly. Like getting to her was worth his life!
About the LBing. yes they will! I tell you why and how. She's going to start bugging him about divorce and marry her to feel secure!
And if he's not made up his mind, wants you both, he's going to have the pressure on then!
It shouldn't take too long as you've said she's young. Probably very stupid too. LOL
If he' settling in, and becoming the couch potato with her, she's going to get antsy too.
The excitement will dim.
God bless and hang in, Lou

Every situation is different, but I too, did a Plan B and finally, after three months my H and I started recovery. Some advice from my personal perspective:

*begin to think only of yourself and your children, what is best for you? If you can only do it for a minute, then do that. When you think of something you would like, that would make you feel good or happy (not R oriented) just DO IT

*I read "Hope for the Separated" which helped quite a bit in seeing the purpose to staying out of contact with WH. Maybe with a true purpose in mind, this will be easier for you. In the end, you will be doing it for yourself

*Pray, meditate, whatever and stay in the NOW, this moment right now.

I will try and post more later...

Hi Mimi

any news?
Has your WS switched on his voicemail yet?

S.

Hi Guys:

I did not believe it could happen but I really believe that I have made a major change. It has lasted onto a second day. Basically, I feel calm, self-assured and confident. Like MATILDE , I am believing that "life is not hopeless without him" , that life would me hopeless without ME.

I just finally became tired of it all. I was mainly tired of the obsessions about him. My whole day was filled with thoughts about: "What are they doing?" and triggers occurred everywhere I went. I decided that I could not possibly live that way any longer. So I began replacing the obsessions with positive thoughts and affirmations about myself. Thoughts like: I don't deserve this; I am likable and lovable; I deserve gourmet dining and not crumbs, etc... I am steadily affirmed by others as I having been going out into the community again. Everybody compliments me on how good I look. I make sure to tell them how good I am starting to feel. Maybe they will pass some of this on to him.

Also, like Matilde suggested, I began to think back and identify ANYTHING THAT HAS WORKED. I asked myself, what activities keep my mind off of him. There aren't many but they include flower gardening, looking at houses and thinking about moving and reading. I want to add more and more activities to this list.

I'm feeling the love dwindling.I feel so detached from him. I'm thinking, "how can I be with someone who can treat me and his children so badly?" Hopefully, it is locked away somewhere as suggested by Mortarman.

I did impulsively call him on Monday. What a mistake! I told him about important mail he received at the house. He asked, "what did it say?" as if, as usual, I open all of his mail. I quickly ended the conversation.

This event just happened as I am typing this post. The banker called on my office VoiceMail and says, "I'm planning on coming over this morning for you to sign the documents'"( for refinancing). WS never told her that I was not going along with it! Well, I quickly called him and informed him of the banker's plan. He says "Oh that's right, that won't work for you ,will it? I'll call her right now and tell her not to come." I say thanks and hang up.
What's going on? Is it part of a scheme or is he just using avoidance. I don't really care, though. I'm simply not going along with the refinancing. I hate it that I talked to him again. He sounded so phony, not even like a real person, like an ALIEN!!!

I also hear that he has been going to the gym at different times as if trying to catch me. Who knows???

Phone is ringing two times in a row in the office now. I'll fill you in on what's going on. Let me hear from you. Phone is ringing again!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ June 26, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, it sounds like you are doing great and breaking out of the obessession by focusing more on yourself. I suspect it will get easier and easier from here on out.

An activity that really helped take my mind off my troubles was working out. I know you don't want to go the gym but was going to suggest that you start doing it at home. Exercise will also help your mental state enormously. I equipped one of my rooms with dumbbells, barbell, step and worked out to home videos. The best ones I have found on the market are the Firm and Cathe Frederick. They have both cardio and weight lifting workouts. I used to just lose myself in those workouts just after my H left and it was such blissful peace.

Hang in there, Mimi, it sounds like you are doing great.

Hi Melody:

I continue to go to the gym everyday. I really it like it there. It is a great facility. I always make sure that he is not there before I go in. If he catches me there, then so be it.

Thanks for continuing to be there for me.

It was not him on the phone again, by the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's a New Me but I want to make sure that you guys do not forget to check on me to reinforce my changes. Please let me hear from you. I can easily slip. It only took me a minute to impulsively call him on Monday.

The stuff with the refinancing today almost got to me this afternoon but I've been able to shake it off. I don't think he gave it priority to tell the banker that I had changed my mind. Then, he did not want to me to call and embarass him by telling her that we are separated. He has this big image there that he is trying to maintain. I did not blow it for him since it's his bank and I'm continuing to pull my Alimony/Child Support out of that checking account. I know, still dependent but I don't want any of his games with that money.

[ June 26, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
Hi Melody:

I continue to go to the gym everyday. I really it like it there. It is a great facility. I always make sure that he is not there before I go in. If he catches me there, then so be it.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thats good. I was worried that you had stopped working out. I started working out on a regular basis when my last H left and really threw myself into it, its such a lifesaver!

Hey Mimi,
You're doing good! You may slip but you won't fall and if you do, we'll be here to pick you up and dust you off and send you on your way again!

This is hard. WH was here today to see the two youngest, he picked them up while I was at work and dropped them off when I was home. He left them at the door, put the carseat on the doorstep and I never saw him! My ears were pretty perked up to everything that was said though!!
He didn't leave me any $$.
Oh, sometimes I wonder why I bother and then other times I am so sure about the things I love(d) about him!!
Hang in there!

I've become very serious over the past few days about moving on with my life. I'm feeling like I don't deserve this and I'm really tired of being so unhappy on the weekends. I spent all day Sat. looking for a new house and I believe that I found one that I really like. I made arrangements with the realtor to put my house on the market on next Monday and arranged to meet with contractors today to do work on my house. I am moving on; I am serious about this. I feel good about my decision.

Well, you guessed it. It is real scary for WS. He will need to **** or get off the pot. I E-Mailed him of my desire to split our retirement funds today. I told him that I needed to hear from him by this afternoon or I would go ahead and proceed with this. It's really easy to get mutual fund money disbursed to you. One fund needs his signature, unfortunately. The other I can simply do over the phone.

Had phone conversation with WS who, of course, did not want to give his signature. Also, he does not want to agree to signing the necessary paperwork for me to put the house up for sale. The realtor called him today wanting to get in touch with him about the paperwork. He also got my E-Mail. So he is getting a huge dose of reality today.

I called him back in response to him leaving an E-Mail questioning what I am doing. I will try to give you the gist of the conversation.

WS: Why are you doing this now? I thought we were going to WAIT before splitting the retirement funds? And, why is "REALTOR's NAME" calling me?

ME: I decided to buy a house and I need the funds for that.

WS: Why are you buying a house? How old is the house? Where is it.

ME: (Hesitation in my voice) Why does it matter to you? (In other words, it's none of your business)

WS: If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask. I thought you would want new construction. I thought you would want to live in a condo.

ME: I would rather live in a house.

He hears noise in the background as I am at home meeting with the contractor.

WS: Where are you? What's that noise?

ME: I'm meeting with contractors about painting, doing repairs,etc.

WS: (Sounding panicked) Are they doing the work today? Who are they? Are they reputable? How did you learn about them?

ME: (Gave a simple explanation and in response to his panic stated): All of this is your choice. You have chosen to leave me and to be with "OW". I have to go on with my life.

WS: How are you feeling about us?

ME: It still stands. When you can assure me of NC and I feel that I can believe you, I will CONSIDER talking to you about US.

WS: OK. Call me back before 1:00 to tell me the growth fund figures.

I CALLED HIM BACK AND HE IS GONE. HE HAS HIS CELL PHONE TURNED OFF.

What do I do now? He is going to avoid me. What's going on? What did I do wrong? How can I fix this? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I was able to get the ALIMONY/CHILD SUPPORT money again today from his checking account. He was anxious about that because he does not have much money left for the next two weeks. He is beginning to suffer the consequences of his actions.

Mimi,
What the hell does WH mean "How do you feel about us?"
It kills me, as if they don't understand yet how we feel??
And "Us", there is no us while there is an OW!!
Definate cake eating going on here, he doesn't want to be in your life but he wants to know everything that's going on.
Hang in there Mimi.
Don't try calling him again. let him come to you.
I know it's hard!
I'm a mess myself today, see my post.

I don't want to call him but I want him to sign the necessary paperwork for me to put the house on the market and for me to get the money.

I WILL proceed with getting the house repaired.

He's figured out how to stall me.

Mimi, Hang in there, you are in my prayers. God Bless.

Mimi,

You're new title for the thread is right on. He is cracking. Pani is the word of the day. But, where is he now in all of this? And more important...what do you do next?

He asked where your relationship was because he is afraid. Of what? of coming down off that fence, and putting down that huge piece of cake. Your response was right on (NC, and then I will begin to talk to you about possible reconciliation). Perfect.

All that you are doing (divorce paperwork, division of assets, selling the house, etc) is shining reality into the fog. It is getting REAL painful in there!

But, what now? Well, due to my experience, and many of those I have read on here, my suggestion is to turn up the heat! How to do that will be up to you.

First off, you have told him that you are interested in possible reconciliation. Now, during anything that might happen while you are doing what I suggest below, that he comes up and asks "Where are we?" or "Have you given up?", your normal response would be as you did above. But, as you have said in the last several posts, you are about done with all of this.

You are supposedly in Plan B, but you are still having a lot of contact. TURN UP THE HEAT! Let him know in an email or letter, that although you are ready to work on the marriage, you also are reaching a point where you can no longer accept the status quo. Thus, ALL direct contact will end. NOW! You will deal with him through intermediaries, lawyers, whatever...in tying up all of these loose ends. You are not doing this to hurt him...you are just trying to get on with your life.

Tell him that he is a grown man, capable of making decisions. Well, sometimes decisions have consequences. Tell him that as of now, there will only be one woman in his life...Mimi or OW. One of you will nolonger be in his life in any way.

Explain to him that this is not what you want, but it is what you have to do. That the power to save this marriage now rests in his lap. That you are now no longer waiting patiently at home for his return, but attempting to regain your life.

Close this letter/email with the facts. Tell him how you feel about him, that you know that with time,counseling, committment...that your marriage can be better than either of you ever could have thought. But tell him that you can no longer stand by and support his inappropriate and abusive behavior of you. That if he feels that this is what he should be and must be doing, then it is time to get fully away from him because Mimi does not deserve to be treated this way by someone that supposedly loves her.

Mimi, I have followed your posts for awhile. I believe your husband is on the fence...and it has gotten VERY uncomfortable for him. He is struggling to maintain the status quo. He sees you buying a house, taking out money from savings, etc. He figures he cant stop you, but wants to still maintain control...to keep you in the game. So he will go along with it, as long as he can still maintain himself atop of that fence.

It is time, IMO, that he understands that the placement of his butt on that fence will no longer be allowed. That selling the house, etc will not be continuing the status quo, but will be the beginning of the end.

I believe the way that you must do that is to go completely dark now. Plan B in the fullest! He is panicked and nervous. So let him be more so. Silence, plus your actions towards splitting assets, divorce, and moving into a new house, all will cause him GREAT discomfort in the fog.

Which way your husband goes from there is anyone's guess. You have done well, and the odds are he will break...and come home seeking reconciliation. but he might not. But I believe that you have reached that point where MIMI can no longer accept the status quo. And thus, it is your husband's responsibility now to act like a grown man for once...and make an adult decision.

In His arms.

He probably saw OW during lunch and got his FIX. ALways happens.

He called on Office Voice Mail and asked can realtor slide papers under the door to be signed. This is out of embarassment since she is my friend and now knows about him. That answer would be NO.

Then he says "CALL ME BACK ON MY CELL PHONE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE SO WE CAN TALK FURTHER ABOUT DIVIDING THE MONEY". This pisses me off because he tells me when I'm allowed to call him on his cellphone and I'm not supposed to be calling him anyways. He thinks I need him and I do for the money issue.

So what do you recommend? I'm thinking an E-Mail, answering his questions and stating " the answer about the money is either YES OR NO. If the answer is YES, sign the paper which I WILL slide under your office door."

I'm so tired of this crap!

MM:

I just reread your post and know what I've got to do. I will write him a letter spelling out my position.

Any other suggestions by you or anyone else will continue to be greatly appreciated though.

I'm not calling him back and will tell the realtor to contact him regarding an answer to his question.

Thanks a lot.

Good Mimi. Write your letter, and if you are unsure about it, put it on here so everyone can vet it.

Then go DARK! And do not back down. No contact for any reason. You have a small window of opportunity here. Time for him to get real uncomfortable.

And if he doesnt come around, you will have at least cut off your fix of him, and the pain that it causes, and are better able to move forward with your life.

Get moving. Do not be angry in your letter, just matter of fact. Leave him alone in his mess. You are doing great!

In His arms

I'm working on my letter as MM suggested.

I think it would be helpful to also get your perspective, Cerri.

In fact anyone's help would be appreciated.

I'm thinking that I am not doing a strict enough
PLAN B.

I'm continuing to feel strong in my conviction to be free of this crap. I just keep wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

Please, please, please tell me that you don't need me to read all 19 pages here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Plan B is to protect you. It's no contact. There's no such thing as a modified Plan B or a partial Plan B.

Did you send a PBL when you decided to go this route? What did it say? Do you have a copy? Can I see it?

What have you done since then? What is it you want to do differently now?

What can I help with?

C

Ok, I stopped panicking over the 19 pages and read the last few posts.

So you're in Plan B, and moving on and doing things with your life... like hiring contractors to work on the house. That's cool.

I dunno if I would divide up retirement $ or sell the house just yet though. It seems to be contradictory to the idea of waiting out the A and being open to reconciling when it ends.

How long have you been in Plan B? How long in Plan A before that?

Ok, sorry.... feel like I'm coming in in the middle of a movie. Fill me in on the basics... briefly.

C

Cerri:

Your viewpoint about the retirement funds, selling house,etc. seems a bit different than Mortarman's. I feel like I need to get out of this house as it holds too many memories. WS has bought a condo and left all of his clothes here. He has tried to start over I guess. I guess I want to do that too. I don't see us ever living here together. Maybe some place else or in my new place. Certainly not in his condo where he is romancing the OW.

My WS is the ultimate in cake-eating. He wants the both of us. However, he gives me the crumbs and gives her the buffet.

I've been trying to do a strict Plan B since June 1st and really have not laid eyes on my WS for 6 weeks.

D-Day was 12/02. He stayed home until Feb. and pretended that he was trying to come back home from Feb. to April; I was the OW while he claimed that he was trying to get away from her. In April, he came home for 3 weeks during a false reconciliation. Legal separation on 5/01.

He would do the above scenario again if I would allow it with me being on the side, enabling the A. I tend to micromanage and plan his life. With her, he just wants to have fun. He still continues to try to get me to do things like pay all the bills although we are separated.

He panicked today when I proceeded with plans to sell the house. I have made it clear that that does not mean that I would not reconcile if he would do NC.

That's sort of the gist of it. Plan A for about 4 months. Plan B- 1 month.

I have been trying to write him a letter as suggested by Mortarman. I haven't really decided what to say.

Cerri:

Your viewpoint about the retirement funds, selling house,etc. seems a bit different than Mortarman's. I feel like I need to get out of this house as it holds too many memories. WS has bought a condo and left all of his clothes here. He has tried to start over I guess. I guess I want to do that too. I don't see us ever living here together. Maybe some place else or in my new place. Certainly not in his condo where he is romancing the OW.

My WS is the ultimate in cake-eating. He wants the both of us. However, he gives me the crumbs and gives her the buffet.

I've been trying to do a strict Plan B since June 1st and really have not laid eyes on my WS for 6 weeks.

D-Day was 12/02. He stayed home until Feb. and pretended that he was trying to come back home from Feb. to April; I was the OW while he claimed that he was trying to get away from her. In April, he came home for 3 weeks during a false reconciliation. Legal separation on 5/01.

He would do the above scenario again if I would allow it with me being on the side, enabling the A. I tend to micromanage and plan his life. With her, he just wants to have fun. He still continues to try to get me to do things like pay all the bills although we are separated.

He panicked today when I proceeded with plans to sell the house. I have made it clear that that does not mean that I would not reconcile if he would do NC.

That's sort of the gist of it. Plan A for about 4 months. Plan B- 1 month.

I have been trying to write him a letter as suggested by Mortarman. I haven't really decided what to say.

MORTARMAN:

I'm getting nervous. Am I going too far by asking to split the retirement funds? I'm starting to back down from the resolve I had. It's the phone conversations with him, right? He got to me by sounding like he was concerned and cared and that I was hurting his feelings. YUK!!

[ June 30, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

The only reason I suggested the selling of the house, etc is because you previously stated that you wanted to be rid of the house. I did too in my situation. And now, my wife has moved into the townhouse I started renting...and we are working toward buying our new house early next year.

Cerri is right. There is a fine line between Plan B and Plan D. You want out of the house, no matter whether he comes back or not...right? So, go forward with the house. You need the money from your savings in order to do this. Well, if it makes financial sense, then do so. Make decisions that are best for you FIRST, and then also factor in what these decisions will do IF he comes back.

Now, in Plan B, these actions by you are done in the best interests of YOU, while still maintaining that scenario that if he meets your prerequisites for reconciliation, then you are still open to it. When you go to Plan D, then these actions are meant to sever all ties and move on with your life. Do you see the difference.

If you can see the difference, then that is great. Then you can balance what is best for you, with maintaining Plan B and a possible future with your WH.

But guess what? He wont know the difference. He'll hear that you still want to talk reconciliation, if he will get rid of OW for good. But then he will see you selling the house, getting some of the assets, no contact with him. He will have to bounce this around inside his head. What is she doing? And the answers he gets, he WILL NOT LIKE!

Plan B is NOT about forcing your husband to do anything. It is about you. It is about taking control of your life, and lessening the pain. About saving what is left of the love of your husband for that day where he may come back. As the Harleys state, in the end of Plan B, you should be out of love with your husband, thus making the divorce a lot easier.

It is also about leaving your husband to his own choices. It isnt punishment. He made the choice to be with the OW. Now, he must live with that. Now he must accept a world without Mimi in it.

The point to Plan B is to protect you, and at the same time, put your husband into the situation he has created. And then, you sit back and see what happens to him. Most end up realizing the truth in time...and come home.

I pray your husband will be like the majority.

In His arms.

Mimi .... "I was hurting his feelings" .... >gag<

Do what you need to do to move on.

I totally agree with MM's advice.

Your WH needs to experience a total eclipse of the Mimi. GO DARK AND STAY DARK .... anything less is inviting a thousand cuts to your heart.

Your WH is on the fence. Time for Mimi to get off HER fence! Commit to B if that's where you are.

Love, Pep

I'm pretty sure that I get what you are saying MM and PEP. Do what I need to do for me in PLAN B whether it's selling the house, getting assets or whatever. At the same time, make choices that leave the door open for reconciliation if he chooses by going along with the conditions.

Do you think I need to write him the letter? I'm thinking I should just stay dark and let him contact me if he wants to know any particulars. I will focus on getting my house repaired, continuing with the plan of putting it on the market. I don't really need the money until the house is sold and I'm going to purchase a new one. The problem is his avoidance of signing the paperwork for the realtor. I think I might be able to get around this somehow by use of some stipulations in my separation agreement which state that I can sell the house.

Also, help me understand better how you so clearly see him as being ON THE FENCE. What do you mean by this exactly? Are you referring to him not wanting to let go of me while holding on to her? How about him trying to play the husband by being concerned about the contractor I chose? Isn't that bizarre???? He acted as if I should have checked with him first. Should I have gone over to the condo this weekend and asked him about this? I certainly could not have left him a Voice Mail message to question his opinion.

Thanks so much-all of you.

[ July 01, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I think the letter (PBL) will work well. Have you already sent one before? what did it say if you did? It is kind of like official notification to your husband that cake eating / fence sitting time is over.

Now, to a few of your questions...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Also, help me understand better how you so clearly see him as being ON THE FENCE. What do you mean by this exactly? Are you referring to him not wanting to let go of me while holding on to her? How about him trying to play the husband by being concerned about the contractor I chose? Isn't that bizarre???? <hr /></blockquote>You are exactly right. Plus more. Take a timeout and go back and read your previous posts. Your husband is cake eating / fence sitting, EVEN WHILE YOU HAVE SUPPOSEDLY BEEN ON PLAN B!! Plan B is NO CONTACT. Okay, you havent seen him in 6 weeks. But you have talked to him. DO NOT DO THIS! Make the next conversation you have either the day the OW is gone and he leaves the message that he is seeking reconciliation OR the day the two of you meet in court to finalize the divorce. Going dark means go completely dark. He has the OW...and with the continued contact and questions that you answer, he knows he still has you. Classic cake eater! He is concerned by your actions, and then seeks you to reassure him that you are still there. Stop this. Write the PBL, send it...then let him wonder what is happening.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He acted as if I should have checked with him first.<hr /></blockquote>Of course he did...the man LOVES cake while sitting on his picket fence.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Should I have gone over to the condo this weekend and asked him about this? I certainly could not have left him a Voice Mail message to question his opinion.<hr /></blockquote>No, no, no, nope...stop this. No talks, no messages, no voicemail. Third party access ONLY!Send him emails or letters. Have a mutual friend, or your attorney, contact him concerning these issues. This is why you must do a good PBL before going into Plan B. That way, he knows the rules, he knows what you are doing. And then you start getting on with your life. And he is STUCK in his. And he begins to worry that what you said in your PBL might be just you beginning to leave him behind. He becomes worried and panics. But you arent there to comfort him. And OW DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR IT! He is left alone in the fog...and now it is dark in the fog. A very scary place indeed.

Write the letter, go dark. And then wait. I am still betting that he is going to break sooner than we think.

In His arms.

Mimi...

Unless you've written a letter, or stated explicitly the things below you aren't really in Plan B. Plan B requires that certain things be said up front. Otherwise it's more like withdrawal. I'm sure you said some or all of these things during the course of the sep, but a letter is optimal because it sets it all out in a way that is clear and concise and can't be denied or argued later. It can be looked at and reread as time goes on.

You need to decide if you are in save the marriage mode, or take care of you mode..... they're not mutually exclusive but you will behave differently depending on which way you're thinking.

MM and I differ on some things because I am very much hardline by the book Willard Harley. He's brilliant and his stuff works. Not all the time, nothing does, but more often and with better results than anyone else's methodology that I've seen to date. And because that's my training and I mentor for the weekend program, I use it almost exclusively.

Having said that, I probably don't know enough about your background history. If you have a legal separation then maybe you do want to sell the house, I agree that you won't want to live there together again. But if you sell it you remove one more connection that he has to you.... you give the appearance and send out the energy of moving on, rather than of taking care of yourself until the A ends. Ditto with the retirement funds. It looks like you're done. You're disassembling the remaining shell of the marriage.

Things that need to be in a PBL

• I love you.
• I married you for life. I want to stay married to you
• I am willing to do what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things I did wrong in the marriage.
• The affair/neglect/abuse is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you.
• As soon as the affair/neglect/abuse is over I would love to talk with you about our future.
• Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever
• In an emergency you can reach me through______.
• Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.

C

MM..... have you heard from MarathonMan? I haven't seen him around in quite a while and was following his story pretty closely.

Mimi

Not much to add that the others haven't said already. I just wanted to add my support.

Your H is cake-eating. You are in Plan B. That means doing things for you - and to protect you. That probably means in your case doing things like selling the house and splitting the retirement funds. If you reconcile - your goal - these things will not be major obstacles. I know that you have reached these decisions after careful thought and are doing them for the right reasons. I agree with MM's take on your husbands behaviour. I also would agree with what Cerri says about the plan B letter.

Good luck and keep us posted.

S.

Hi Mimi.
Sorry I haven't been posting for a while. Actually I have been checking your thread but haven't had too much to say. Others have said it for me, and you have been doing a great job.

I do have a POV now though.

I think your reaction in your phone call was overall good, but I think when you say "When you can assure me of NC and I feel that I can believe you, I will CONSIDER talking to you about US" it would be good to hold out a little more hope to him. I think you should possibly amp things up a bit- "Even though our marriage has taken a terrible blow, I believe with hard work from both of us we have something precious, something worth saving." Throw in stuff about your history together, the kids etc. Make sure the hope isn't dead. He has to know there is something there for him if he leaves OW and that you will support him through that. It is a fine line to tread though- you won't wait forever.

I think overall though, everything you said was excellent. Other good little sentences to throw in. "I see now that you are happy with OW, regretfully I must try now to find my own happiness. This is extremely painful for me, but I don't want to interfere with you finding your dream". Tell him your heart is breaking, you need to move on because it is too painful.

Another tactic- when he tries to get friendly with you, you say, "this isn't fair to OW. I'm sure she would be furious that you are chatting with me".

Move as fast or as slow as you want Mimi. Each of these steps is a process. Each step moves you closer to divorce. My feeling is, go a little dark on him this week and do nothing. Let him wonder. Don't contact him about the retirement. Let him stew in what you are doing.

When he tells you to call him to discuss whatever, I think that is about him wanting some contact with you. Don't get angry about it- it is a normal tactic from him. You can either have the conversation ON YOUR TERMS or respond to him by e-mail. But whatever you do, don't get angry at him about it.

I think when he shuts off his voicemail it is his attempt to seize control back. I think he is shocked that you are standing on your own two feet, handling things on your own, and taking care of yourself. Maybe he thinks shutting it down will freak you out, make you feel you are losing the shred of him that you do have.

The only thing that I wish is that there was a friend that could talk with him. Although MB tells people not to try to "educate" their WS, I did and it was very helpful. When you explain some of the feelings that "infidels" experience, sometimes it does ring a bell. It's important for them to understand about withdrawal as well. Did you have a chance to talk about any of that with your WS? the only thing I do counsel is don't get him involved in the MB BB. I think this is a support system for people who are dealing with a very traumatic situation. It is not a good place for your WS to get involved with reading your thoughts and tactics.

Keep working on yourself and you are absolutely right- you deserve more than being in a horrible crazy triangle. Your WS may or may not wake up in time, but you don't deserve this terrible treatment.

I will try to write more later.

First of all...Cerri...No, I havent heard from Marathonman in awhile. I will post a thread in a minute, seeking him out. I was just thinking about him last night and the fact that he hasnt been on here in awhile.

Mimi & Cerri,

I think Cerri and I are saying mostly the same things. I also love the harley approach (it worked for me!). I think in my posts, that if there is any impression that I am advising you to go against these principles, then I would love to clarify.

Cerri is right. You must decide if you are in save the marriage mode or protect Mimi mode. Like she said, depending on which mode you are in, you will act different. Of course, you are always trying to save the marriage AND protect yourself. But depending on which mode is dominant, will decide how you act and react.

If you are going to truly be in Plan B, then write the letter. Do as Cerri stated...spell it out like she said. And then go dark. NO MORE CONTACT UNTIL THE AFFAIR IS OVER AND HE IS READY TO HAVE AN AGREMMENT TOWARD RECONCILIATION (READ UP ON THIS SITE ON THAT PHASE, IF YOU ALREADY HAVENT).

On the house and retirement funds, I also agree with Cerri that it is preferable to keep these in order to have that connection with your husband. But, as I have followed your posts, I have seen that you have wanted to move out of that house, and to do so you will need those funds. What to do? Again, if you can wait a little while to let your Plan B letter settle in, and Plan B settle in, then it will be less of a shock to your WH and he wont think that you are shutting the marriage down. But, for good, sound financial reasons, you must do this, then spell it out to him in your letter or an email. Make sure that he understands your reasoning...that it is not about ending the marriage, but about doing things that make financial sense.

But, no matter which way you go, once that PBL is sent...stay away. No phonecalls, no voicemails, no emails, no letters. Everything is third party, as spelled out in your PBL. He must get NOTHING in the way of ENs met by you. NONE! This is what I mean by going dark.

I hope this adequately explains where I was coming from, and that I think Cerri and I are actually in agreement here. Make your decision on Plan B. Then if you are going to do it...do it right. Then make decisions about your future that are in the best interests of Mimi.

In His arms.

I need to work on another PBL.

My WS' response yesterday left me confused about what MODE I am in. I was set on focusing on taking care of myself and moving on. Then, I heard that "I'm confused, I still care about you" tone in his voice. I guess that's one reason why I don't need to talk to him. Going to see houses yesterday lost the thrill and power that it had over the weekend. I saw some really nice houses, too. I started to question whether I am doing the right thing. Not the idea of moving to a new house. I was wondering whether or not I should let him see them. I know, bizarre. I started thinking WE again. It's a hard habit to break!!

So I'm now confused about the mode. I'm in both. I want to save the marriage, if possible and I want to take care of myself. Saving the marriage is up to my WS. I have no control over that so I have to focus on myself, right.

I believe that I can maintain NC. I can write the letter. I will need to explain to him that selling the house is not meant to disconnect from him. Really, in our case, the house has really bad memories. We are more likely to reconcile if that house is out of the picture. We had lots of arguments when we were building it. I don't think my WS ever really liked the house or felt comfortable there because of that bad experience. I am unhappy there too and would be a better person in a different place where he could even come to visit if he ever does NC.

Help me out of some of this confusion today before I write that letter. What does it sound like is going on with me? Am I being fooled by what sounds like a crack in my WS? Everything certainly isn't rosy with the OW is it?

Mimi,

This is all natural. Go back to my posts back in November, December and January. I started my Plan B about 4 times, only to finally put it on right starting in mid December. It took another 6 weeks before my wife initially started cracking. And then another two months before she was home.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Help me out of some of this confusion today before I write that letter. What does it sound like is going on with me?<hr /></blockquote>You are naturally reacting to your emotions in a stressful situation. Read, read, read. Pray. trust in His word. Trust in what you have read here, in the statistics on how these things go down. Understand that there are a lot better odds that a true Plan B will have your husband home, than it is that Plan B will force him away forever. It is time to trust yourself, trust God...and trust your plan. if you do not trust these, you will not be able to executethe plan. And you will fail. And the pain will continue. What you are feeling is natural. But you are going to have to override those feelings with what you KNOW for awhile.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Am I being fooled by what sounds like a crack in my WS?<hr /></blockquote>Maybe. But you wont know for sure until you go to a full Plan B. Your husband wants his cake. He says things like he is unsure right now because he doesnt want to make a decision...doesnt want to lose you or the OW. But a wife and an OW are oil and water...they do not mix. Dr. Harley states that when the WS starts getting confused on what to do and is thinking about which person to go with, THAT is the time to go to Plan B. Get Mimi completely out of the picture. Let OW meet ALL of his needs. Let them LB each other to death. You have read all this Mimi. Trust this, even though your emotions have caused you to be frightened. Use your head. Your emotions will follow.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Everything certainly isn't rosy with the OW is it?<hr /></blockquote>Of course not!! You KNOW this to be true...otherwise he wouldnt be giving you the time of day. The more you back away, the more she will have to fulfill his needs. AND SHE WILL FAIL! Remember, over 90% of all of these types of relationships FAIL! Whether or not he comes home, you can count on the fact that in the end, she will not have him. Now, you have pretty good odds (over 50%) that he will come around, if you do what you are supposed to do. So which one do you want? 50% chance of having your husband OR 3% chance of having your husband? The OW is fighting a losing battle. You are not!

In His arms.

Mimi, I don't know all your situation as to his income, pensions, retirement funds, etc.
But here in CA, having been married long time, I'm entitled to half everything he gets! First off, I would have to file what is called a QDRO or he would be ordered to, which would yank half all funds out of his retirment fund giving me cash. Then I'm entitled to half all his income as well if we divorced. Alimony for life even if I remarried!
Yes, if it comes to divorce, you get what you are entitled to! Including any retirement funds and pensions! You earned it in pain as well as years dedicated to him.
Take off the kid gloves if it comes down to it.
As to hurting his feelings? ROFLMBO
What does he think he's done to you?
Ripped part of your heart out is what!
His feelings are the last thing to consider now. In My opinion!
LouLou

Mimi, I don't know all your situation as to his income, pensions, retirement funds, etc.
But here in CA, having been married long time, I'm entitled to half everything he gets! First off, I would have to file what is called a QDRO or he would be ordered to, which would yank half all funds out of his retirment fund giving me cash. Then I'm entitled to half all his income as well if we divorced. Alimony for life even if I remarried!
Not quite. Also remember it goes both ways. If the wife worked and has pension/retirement, he gets half of that.

The amount awarded and for how long is determined in a number of ways.
Whether a spouse has worked or is working, has any current/past skills, can be re/trained, etc.
Just because you were married and are female, does not mean you get half of everything he earned or will earn.

Question: Why is my WS considered ON THE FENCE given that he seems to have chosen to be with the OW. Or do you think it's just her turn now in his backwards and forwards game that he is playing. He still has not made arrangemnets to get his furniture.

Given the plans for definitely no more contact, I was thinking of telling him that he can get the furniture when the house sells. He's going to say that he needs to talk to me about that and to come to the house to get it.

Hi MM, and Mimi

MM: First of all...Cerri...No, I havent heard from Marathonman in awhile. I will post a thread in a minute, seeking him out. I was just thinking about him last night and the fact that he hasnt been on here in awhile.

I'd been kinda watching for the last couple of weeks or more and realized that he just dropped off the radar. I know he was having a tough time with it all and that the concepts didn't seem to be making a dent. I know he really trusted you and that you were helping to at least keep him from panicking entirely.

MM: And then go dark. NO MORE CONTACT UNTIL THE AFFAIR IS OVER AND HE IS READY TO HAVE AN AGREMMENT TOWARD RECONCILIATION (READ UP ON THIS SITE ON THAT PHASE, IF YOU ALREADY HAVENT).

YES!!!!!!! Plan B has to be a line in the sand that doesn't get crossed. Once you cave in and waffle you send the message that you don't really respect yourself, your pain and your needs enough to insist that the WS do the same. And if you don't respect those things, then why should he? When you break contact or let him take little bits and pieces from you, you send a powerful message that you will allow the triangle to continue. Heck, wouldn't we all take it if we could?

MM: But, no matter which way you go, once that PBL is sent...stay away. No phonecalls, no voicemails, no emails, no letters. Everything is third party, as spelled out in your PBL. He must get NOTHING in the way of ENs met by you. NONE! This is what I mean by going dark.

Once again.... YES!!!!!!!!

MM: Make your decision on Plan B. Then if you are going to do it...do it right. Then make decisions about your future that are in the best interests of Mimi.

See, my view is that saving the marriage is always in the best interests of the parties involved. Divorce has long reaching effects on adults too. The rates of depression, alcoholism, suicide, and mental health issues are significantly increased for people who have been through a divorce.

Now, I'm not in any way advocating staying in marriage that is miserable. (Although there are studies that show couples who are unhappy but who stick it out for 5 years are much happier than those who divorce.) But rather that you (you meaning "anyone"... not "you" specifically <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) proactively and with some urgency take the steps that Harley outlines. And that you set aside instincts and emotions and act on an intellectual plan.... even when those instincts and emotions are screaming for you to do otherwise.

So Plan A.... as in, meet needs as best you can, avoid LBers (bona fide LBers, not just the idea of upsetting your spouse), confront about the A, expose it to the scrutiny of others. Six months tops for men and three for women.

Then when you're at the top of you Plan A game.... when you're cookin'... doin' a good job at all of that.... pull out. Go to Plan B. Protect what's left in your LBank and be ready to hunker down for the long haul.

Otherwise.... and you have no idea how often I see this, particularly with women.... the day will come when the A ends and you won't want to see his shadow darkening your door. You must protect your love bank and the feelings you have left for your spouse if there is to be any hope of reconciliation at a later date. Doing Plan A too long is just as harmful to the hope of restoration of the M as are rampant love busters.

C

How do I respond to this? Keep in mind that I have not done anything today.

Voicemail Message from WS: "My name, I got word from a Mortgage Broker that somebody wants to buy the house. I don't know how they heard about the house being for sale. We haven't signed a contract or anything. They want to do it without a realtor. Call me,I need to hear from you first. Thanks"

This is a scheme. My WS wants control. He does not want to use my realtor and does not want me to be in charge of selling the house. There is no way anybody could know that I was thinking about selling my house unless he told them. I know the Mortgage Broker he is talking about. It is somebody that he knows and probably called. I am committed to my realtor. She is a friend of mine. He is trying to get out of signing the paperwork, wants to be in control and wants me to call him back.

I am pissed. Again, he wants to make it look like he is being helpful to me by saving on the commission fees but he is not. The house is not even ready to be shown yet.

[ July 01, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I've decided to tell him that I am committed to my realtor. Should I E-Mail him or wait to write it in the PBL? The problem will be his unwillingness to sign the paperwork regarding selling the house but I might be able to get around that by consulting with the lawyer.

Also this is about him to trying to make me LB to convince himself that he does not need to be with me. He has control issues with me. OW supposedly does everything that he wants her to do. Well, I don't choose to be like that in order to stay in the marriage. We're not together so do not need to work on POJA right now.

You guys are all right. Time for a strict PLAN B.

[ July 01, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I've decided to tell him that I am committed to my realtor. Should I E-Mail him or wait to write it in the PBL? The problem will be his unwillingness to sign the paperwork regarding selling the house but I might be able to get around that by consulting with the lawyer.

Also this is about him to trying to make me LB to convince himself that he does not need to be with me. He has control issues with me. OW supposedly does everything that he wants her to do. Well, I don't choose to be like that in order to stay in the marriage. We're not together so do not need to work on POJA right now.

You guys are all right. Time for a strict PLAN B.

I ended up E-Mailing him that I am committed to my realtor and will write the PLAN B letter ASAP.

Lightbulb just came on in my head!

WS is concerned about his A becoming public knowledge.

Once our house goes on the market, EVERYBODY that knows us will be utterly surprised. They will be asking "Why in the world did **** and**** put their dreamhouse (which we custom-built) on the market?" When they ask me, I will tell them why. When they ask him, well... He does not want anybody to know that he has left me. Now it has to come out, including to my friend the realtor who he does not want to face.

OUT INTO THE LIGHT!

[ July 01, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sounds like a plan.

Mimi -
You crack me up. If anyone is a Plan B failure, it's me. I'm in it longer than you or learnin. A dubious honor anyway. How are you doing tonight?
Lablady

[ July 01, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: lablady ]

I wrote and delivered the PLAN B letter last night into his office door.

I feel calm and relieved today. I feel like I'm back on the right track FOR MYSELF.

I'm trying to arrange to put the house on the market without his signature. I may have to get my lawyer involved. YUK!!! I'll do what I need to do.

The PBL seemed too personal for me to post here just in case someone could identify me from what I was saying. I did indicate that selling the house should not be viewed as indicating a desire to end the marriage.

Hey Mimi,
Glad to hear you're back in the saddle. I'm taking off for the long weekend and looking forward to a change of scenery!
It will be somewhat emotional, going on this trip for the first time without WH.
(I had this urge to call WH and say, snap out of it, I know you want to come, let's just stop this madness)
Crazy huh?
But me and the kids are looking forward to it, I'll deal with all my financial woes when I get back.
I'll check in when I get back.
Hang in there.

News Flash!

Went to realtor's office today to take copy of Separation Agreement to show stipulation that I can choose the realtor. This was in response to WS' refusal to sign papers to put the house on the market.

Guess who's car was in the parking lot? I got out of there so fast you probably could see my wheels spinning.

I haven't called the realtor back nor has she called me. I guess he needed to know that selling the house doesn't mean the end. Who knows? I just hope he signed the papers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi,

Good for you!! Here you go...this ride is about to come to an end, one way or another.

Ride this out. As you said, he is playing games. He thinks he has power over you. He is now getting the point, through your actions, and written out in your PBL that you will not allow his inappropriate behavior to continue.

He is scrambling around, trying to find a way to keep the status quo. HE WILL TRY TO CONTACT YOU SHORTLY! He may even come with some half baked story of how he has been thinking of what you wrote, and he wants to have some time to work through this. Blah, blah, blah. More WS fogese! Do not fall for it. Hopefully, you put in your PBL that the conditions of any further contact with you is NC with OW, and a commitment to put together a plan for reconciliation. As well as in that plan, the agreement that you two will seek counseling.

If that was in there, he will know the way out. He will try every other way possible. If you stay dark, he WILL fail! And then it will be decision time for him. Do as you asked in the PBL, or forever know that he has lost you and move on with his new life. A very painful time indeed!

How long will all of this take? Who knows. From the moment that my wife was put into Plan B for good, until she knocked on my door wanting to discuss how we could move forward was 6 weeks. it took another 2 months for us to go to counseling, to be together and talk, before we finally moved her home. But I did not back down on Plan B. Not until there was NC between OM and her and she was ready for us to go to counseling.

Mimi, this will be tough at first. You will have withdrawals from your husband. He will try to trick you into going back to the status quo. Every part of you will want to believe him when he says he is "trying to get back." DO NOT BELIEVE IT! Plan B has been started and Plan B it is. As Cerri said, you have drawn the line in the sand. If you bck down, you WILL fail!

The good thing about this is now, you know your life is going to move forward. Statistics say, it will also be with your husband. But even if it isnt, this phase of your life ended when you delivered that letter. Do not go back to that phase. Start moving forward.

Somehow, I still believe that your WH will catch up to you.

In His arms.

[ July 02, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

What MM said..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hang in there Mimi..... this is the right thing to do.

C

Today is now officially known as "MIMI ** DAY"

~~~~ celebrations are in order ~~~~

YOU are about to realize your authentic self!

Get ready for an amazing transformation!

Your marriage partner (should he decide to smartly return to you) will find himself married to a new and improved Mimi who knows her sh*t! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

I appreciate YOU GUYS so much.

I was so pumped up yesterday before I wrote that letter. Plus, WS had really pissed me off.

I felt so cleansed after writing the letter. I feel like I said everything I needed to say. How much I love him...he's my husband for life...what I've done to work on things...I've done everything I can do to save the marriage... it's in his hands and God's hands...no longer wanting to be a part of their sinful triangle...excited by creating my own happiness...

Then today. I feel so VICTORIOUS. That was really new for me to stand up to him and insist on my realtor and then for him to back down and go sign the papers!!!

I really am thinking that this was a process I had to go through. I think the withdrawal might be over. I'm back to being able to envision myself without him for the first time. There's so many steps that he has to take to convince me that he's finished with her. When you think of it, he left me three times to go to her. It's supposed to be three strikes and you are out.

I know that I will have my lows but this really has taken me again to another level, a place where I have never been before in this process. I feel powerful and in control.

IT'S MIMI DAY although MIMI is not my real name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If he signed separation agreement stating you can choose realtor, he cannot stop you now!
He can refuse to sigh sales contract though, unless you push him legally!
I would have thought he'd try to stop you selling. Perhaps his trying to put with mortgage broker was so he could tell them dont' sell it. Just act like you're trying?
Keep moving forward.
LouLou

I continue to feel "calm and collected" today. My house is being painted at this very minute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lou,

He signed the papers yesterday. The realtor, an old friend, said he evidently could not look her in the face and gave her the referral of the folks he said were interested in the house.

MB Friends:

Please check in and say HELLO even if it seems like I am doing well. Things can change so quickly for us BSes. I check on here for quick fixes of support. I'll be glad to do the same for those of you who also need a cyber-hug!! I don't want to start feeling bad in order to get your attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

THANKS!!!

MIMI,

Don't post to too many people, but I have read your thread and want you to know I pray for you. Your situation has touched my heart.

You are doing great, and the right thing I believe. Hang tough. Hope WS comes out of the fog.
Praying that you have recovery.

You are wonderful, strong, and doing a great job in spite of it all. Just want you to know you have my support.

May God Bless you and keep you, have a happy 4th of July!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love in Chist,
Miss M

MISS M:

Thanks so much for your kind words of encouragement.

I'm putting my life in GOD's hands. I'm in HIS ARMS as MM says and feel so secure there.

Mimi,

I have been reading your thread daily but you have been getting good support and knew I couldn't add much more.

Selling one's home while dealing with an A is not something I have a lot of experience in and so leave it to others who do.

I must say that you have been doing well from what I have read. I know you are able to see where you are vs where you are going and this is a positive step.

The gap between you and your WS will widen until you are on the safe road and he is in the A foggy, bumpy, crooked, roller coaster road.

Keep moving forward as you are. You are surviving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

You see, you added a new perspective--

The gap will widen....

Why do you think he's not already on the A road?
I haven't been able to understand the perception of him being on the fence. It seems to me that he has chosen her and is highly involved and invested in his life with her.

Mimi,

He is on the A road. He hasn't hit the fence yet. Why? Because he isn't off the fence yet. Ooooh it's confusing making logic in the fog. Like trying to clean your glasses in the rain. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You though know where the clear spaces are in your life. Make more. Move forward. In time, he will see that he "can't see".

L.

Thanks, Orchid:

Your words of encouragement and inspiration were just what I needed today! I hate these days when we all are not working. They can be together all day and I can't keep my mind preoccupied with my job. I'm trying to keep busy around the house.

Onward!

Mimi,

I am in between housework and getting ready for a small family BBQ. A big feat in our area since there are a lot of in-laws!!! LOL!! Today is just our family and it feels good. Gonna see other relatives tomorrow. Later we may go out to the ocean and watch some fireworks.

Keeping busy is real important. Big things little things, when I think back, I am amazed at what I accomplished then. In fact I am a bit disappointed that the drive is harder now. Hm........ it is still too much work and too little play.

The goal is to keep yourself moving and movtivated. It may widen the gap some but in the fog, small changes may not be noticed. The will have to stumble over the bigger changes (ie: you selling the house, etc.). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

For me therapy consisted of posting to others. So support can have a dual benefit.

Gotta go work on the potato/mac salad and jello-cream pie!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

I'm cleaning up around here in preparation for putting the house on the market.

I am finding card after card of my WS professing his love for me. He has cut out pictures of himself and me and pasted them on the cards and written special love notes. These cards were from only a few years ago. I see how I goofed in not attending to him. I took him for granted. They didn't mean as much to me then. Well, they meant something. I did keep the cards.

I just found one from 1999. That's not too long ago. He has said we haven't been happy for 10 years.

I'm tempted to give them to him OR to send one to the OW. She/they believe that they are soulmates and that he never loved me. I want to show how that's such a lie.

Not OK to do during PLAN B, right???

Might backfire and remind him of what I did wrong.

It hurts, though, to find this stuff.

I know how much he loved me or still does. He never would tell me that he loves her. He would insist that it is not love but an ADDICTION for her.. He says even recently that he "CARES" about me.

Just really needed to share this with YOU GUYS.

Do nothing right?

Mimi,
I found a few of those kinds of cards also. H wasn't much on cards so they were mainly anniversary cards. His few words then said a lot. I am not reading into their meaning because he was very clear in his love for us then.

So I left them in our room, out on the dresser. He eventually saw it.

Love to leave those mental impressions!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

After a sad morning of dwelling in the past, I want to report that I'm pretty sure that I found a house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pray that this one sells quickly and I'm outta here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MImi- not read your posts before but wanted to vpop in and give you a (((((((hug)))))))))) and tell you i understand. I had to pack up my home when H left me- and move 150 miles back to previous town where h and i had lived. I found photos etc that proved how wrong what he said to me was. If you look at my thread you will see the strange developments there- 21/2 years after he left me!!

Jante

Mimi, great news on the house!

Hi Mimi

Just 'checking in'! Glad to hear about the house. Some good words there from Orchid. You are winning this battle! Keep the spirits up and keep busy.

S.

Mimi...

I too am following you...

remember so much of this is just stopping your participation in their insane games....

That your actions are what define you even while others choose to do this or that...you too have a choice...

In some ways their interpertation of your actions....(is it an LB..does this or that make you responsible for their actions??...)
you must remember to remove yourself from some of that thinking...as long as your actions are coming from that place of protecting yourself and what love you have for h.

remember they will attempt to convince you otherwise....but people with fog for brains...arent demonstrating the best track record right now....

much luck to you
ARK

ARK:

It's good to know that you are there!

TO ALL:

Overall, the weekend was good. I certainly was confirmed of my WS' love for me in the past. That was helpful in reminding me to disregard all his foggish statements that OW is his "soulmate", never loved me, etc. He was making me question my sanity when in reality it's him that is not dealing with a full deck.

I'm moving onward today. I found a house I like and my house in going on the market today.

All of this continues to feel unreal. I never expected that I would be going through these motions of purchasing a house on my own. I've decided to try to enjoy this time alone as MM recommends. I doubt that I spend the rest of my live alone. We'll see!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It must have been meant to be.

He caught me on my cell. It kept ringing and clicking off. I picked it up and it was him. I thought I had seen him earlier on a driveby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WS: Can we talk?

Me: What do you want to talk about?

WS: It's not going to work out. I've realized that there are major problems in the relationship. I'm working things out.

Me: Call me back when you have finished and are ready to write the No Contact letter then we can talk.

WS: Is the house on the market? ME: Yes WS: Did you find a new house? ME: Yes WS: Is it new construction? Me: Yes WS: Will you qualify? ME: Yes. WS: Where is it?

This is where I drew the line. He was getting too much info. I probably did give him too much.

Me: Call me back when you've met my conditions.

WS: OK

Me: Bye. Click.

He was just checking on his position, right? It was a less than 5 minute conversation. He was wanting me to ask him to get with me. He was sounding good to a s***x-starved person like me. I know I was different to him though. He sounded more in the begging mode. I loved it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ July 07, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi-
Interesting phone call! Of course he's checking his position, and it's not with you until he meets your conditions. Good for you!

Just stay off the rollercoaster, OK? You're in Plan B, don't let him get to you. You've come so far, keep up the good work!

Lablady

It didn't get to me. I'm not getting on his rollercoaster. I'm making an offer on the house this evening. It will be my house. I'm driving this car. There's no way I'll take him back easy now. He wants to come live in my NEW HOUSE after going out to play in HIS CONDO. I'm no longer going to be his fool. He will have to stay in that condo a long, long time, I think, even if he wants to get back with me. I can't say come home anymore because there is no home. He will NEVER live with me in this house again. All of this has been by his choice.

Mimi,

Way to go girl !!!!!!!!! You are starting to handle things exactly as you should. Let him WONDER what is going on in your mind. I am very very proud of how quickly you have gotten your self esteem together. Remember confidence,self respect, and dignity..... You are also correct about not letting him come back too easily. Make him work for it. When the WS thinks they may have gone too far is when they want to come back.

Keep movin forward just as you have been. You are on the right track. Hold the line..... He will soon be going throught what you went through if you handle things correctly.

well done Mimi

you are progressing well. Your WH is now hanging on your every move. Keep strong and stick to plan B. I really think that the payoff is around the corner!

S.

[ July 07, 2003, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Salerio ]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you hold YOURSELF in high regard, you will accept no trash from anyone.

Mimi will say, "No thank you. I deserve the prime rib not this cheese sandwich."

Mimi orders her emotional nutrition from her desired menu, no sloppy left-overs.

Mimi walks her path with confidence. Her eyes wide open, she side-steps any malodorous brown piles along the way.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A woman to admire. That's YOU!!!!!

Mimi,

Congratulations, I'm glad to see that the roles are shifting. I hope everything works out for you and I look forward to the day that I get the call.
NW

Mimi,
Good for you girl!!!
Way to handle that call!!
It must feel good to have him call you, like you said in "begging" mode!
Just hold your ground and let Plan B work it's magic.
I'm back in the saddle as you say, will not respond if WH calls!
Even though he drew me in on sunday, I'm feeling Ok.
Onward and upwards!

Mimi,

As the great JL always says... Steady as she goes!

Great job!! It wont be long now.

In His arms

Hi Mimi
I'm not posting alot because you are getting such good advice from everyone else- especially Pepper. Anyway, just to say, you have really grown alot through this process and learned to be strong. Way to go, girl! Keep up the good work!

Mimi,
Just remember, you've got the power now. Use it! Good luck!!

Mimi,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This was good news but by no means are you out of the woods yet. No jinxing but be aware that the roller coaster may tilt the other way soon. When it does you be just as nonchalant.

It keeps you in a safer position.

U R doing good.

L.

Unbelievable! I sold my house today. It's only been on the market one day. All that cleaning/decorating/nesting during PLAN B has paid off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Want to hear something funny? When WS came to sign papers, he asked the realtor if I was in agreement with the purchase offer? When she said,yes, he said "I want to do what makes her happy". Isn't that laughable? I don't see how he can make those words come out of his mouth.

He also asked her if she is helping me with "the other stuff" (meaning the purchase of a house for me). She said she asked him "What other stuff?" and he backed off.

[ July 08, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

WoW!

Good job Mimi!

well done Mimi

that is great news on the house. Another big step into a better future for you. Your WH will soon see what he is leaving behind.

S.

Mimi,

Great news about the house! Did the realtor call your H to come sign the papers? I wonder how he feels about it? I wish you knew what he was thinking. Don't you suspect that he has to be shaken up?

Mimi,

I have not been here for a while. My H and I have been working on recovery since early June when he broke off contact and wrote the NC letter. But tonight I decided to check in, particularly with you, because I always felt a connection to you. I am so delighted to read how far you have progressed. The Plan B, my H now admits, had a tremendous impact on him. I was fortunate that it impacted him fairly quickly, but recovery is a lot of work, and we both know that it is not going to be a short-term task. We are continuing with MB therapy with Jennifer every couple of weeks and feeling a bit stronger each day.

Anyway, enough about me. Congratulations on your progress and I will check in with you periodically. Good news on the houses and I like what I am hearing about your H. Keep strong, but don't give up hope.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Great news Mimi, now you can look forward to the next step, new home, new beginnings....
Keep it up!
I like what isgirl had to say, it should give us hope,huh?

Hi mimi!!!

Isn't it great the turn of events???

Keep the good work, I beleive your plan B is paying off. Don't get dissapointed or frustrated now. Be strong and congrats for the new home!

Hi Learnin, Mimi, et al,

Yes, I want to give you all hope. Don't discard it until your D is final! There is always hope, and the prayers of everyone on this board make miracles happen, I am convinced. Just read and you will agree.

Don't get me wrong. We are far from mended. We are far from where we need to be. We will never be where we used to be, because, as Jennifer (MB) points out, the old relationship was based totally on the wrong approaches. So with the help of MB, we are building a new relationship, based on the principles outlined here. Creating the habits is a lot of work and we have weekly reviews to determine where we are individually at meeting the others' ENs and avoiding LBs. It's not a review of each other, but of ourselves - how have I achieved my goal.

I still have nightmares and daymares about the OW...is he contacting her? Is she contacting him? The letter was written, yes, but who knows what happens thereafter? We have created a very open relationship with regard to honesty. Our phone logs, voicemail, email, bills, etc., are there for the other to see, but there are always payphones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And we still have a LONG way to go with emotional honesty (mostly his ability to open up and talk).

One small step at a time. Each day, with a little more work, we are that much closer to where we need to be and to each other.

My H said that the day he received the Plan B letter it was like his world began changing and he realized the seriousness of his decision and his actions. It still took him some time to decide he could commit to no contact. But take faith in the fact that Plan B does force the WS to take stock, to look at what they are doing. Keep the distance, don't cave in. No contact until the WS makes a decision really works, even though it is excrutiatingly painful.

Been there...done that..hated it...loving where we are going from here.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks ISGIRL,
Hearing success stories, and you are a success story, even if you aren't where you need or want to be yet, is good for the rest of us. As you know it can get discouraging. I think, he's really into this A relationship, maybe it is serious, maybe it is worth all that he is losing...
But then I remember the love, the good times and I know in my heart that this A won't last! And then what? I need to be ready for that moment, I need to be strong, I need to be my own person, so that I can make a decision based on what's best for me and my family.
Anyways, thanks again, and keep up the good work!

Calling Mimi! Are ya doing ok this week?

Hey Guys!

I've been having such a mixture of emotions!

Weekends, especially Saturday, are awful for me. So many memories of him leaving on Saturday and not coming back home until Sunday. Also I can't help but wonder what's going on with them since I'm pretty sure that they went away with each other on Thursday. I guess he's trying to salvage the relationship with a romantic holiday since he said that it wasn't working. Why should I care? But, I still do. I saw him on Wednesday driving in his car. He seemed happy and upbeat, talking on his cell phone. He still made my heart beat fast, as usual, despite all the bad things that he has done to me. I wish I could stop loving him. This is the bad side.

Only a few days ago I was on top of the world. I saw myself living without him, was thinking that I wouldn't even want him back even if he is wanted to come back home and met my conditions.

You see, I'm from one direction to the other.

I found a house that I like but I'm not as happy as I thought I would be. It just seems weird to start this new life without him. I'm so mad that I've been put in this position. It's wonderful, though, that I'm having the opportunity to gain my independence. You see from one direction to the other.

I think I'm on the fence!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ July 12, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

"On the fence" is exactly where you should be in Plan B. That means Plan B is working for you.

Hang tough. Everything is going as planned and as expected.

In His arms.

Mimi, I know you must be struggling. I've been keeping up here but not posting much.
I'd just like to say I think you're doing well so far in your plan.
I don't know what your religious belief is, but if you do practice a faith, keep praying for God's will in your life.
When I suspected my H was seeing someone, I prayed for God to make sin fail. But also for his will for my life to be done. If it was to be that my H was going to leave, For God to guide me, and let only his will be done.
I truly believe in giving it over to God who has the last word!
And he can perform the miracles needed. Whatever the outcome is to be, you will always find peace in knowing God is with you and watching over you.
Sometimes, people like our H's are allowed to exercise their free will because they have turned so against the Lord.
It's their hearts that have to change, and only when they allow God to do so will they wake up.
I also prayed for God to speak to my H's heart, drawing him back to him.
You continue to do what you need to do to prepare yourself for future, and hopefully a salvaged marriage.
I was not only praying in hopes my marriage would be saved, but my husbands soul was at risk!
Prayer is still our greatest weapon against satan and his ways.
God bless, LouLou

Mimi

IMO Mortarman is 100% right. Plan B is about protecting your love for your WH, while forcing him into living with the consequences of his actions. It also sees you focussing on yourself. You have done all of these things and done them well.

Reread what you have written - you have done things for yourself that made you happy. Any thoughts you had of him, or encounters with him reminded you of the love that you have locked away for him, BUT they haven't prevented you doing what you are doing.

As to him looking happy - think about the last time you saw a drunk in a bar. Was he singing, laughing, telling jokes - probably. But was he really happy? Your WH will almost certainly be feeling a deeply growing unease. The 'gut' reaction to this for all of us is denial, then trying to rationalise in a way that aligns with our emotions of the monent (i.e. he'll blame you - but you won't be there to take this thanks to plan B). Eventually his focus will move to where it should be and the pressure will build till he comes running back to you.

Hang in there. We're all rooting for you.

S.

Orchid mentioned on Claire's thread that WSes often take OPes to special places of WS and BS. I think my BS took OW on a trip. I can't think of a place he could have taken her that we haven't gone because traveling was a major pastime of ours. What is that all about? Orchid said the attempt is to make the "memory into a nightmare'. What does this mean?

I also am somewhat concerned that I goofed in that phone call last week. I probably gave him too much hope. He realized that I had not given up. Why else would he then take her on a trip right after that conversation?

Hopefully as I proceed with moving and the house sale he will realize that I am really moving on.

I'm continuing to have these opposing feelings and viewpoints. On the one hand, I would love to have my family back intact. My children seem to be hurting so much with all of these changes and upheaval. On the other hand, it almost seems impossible that I can forget and forgive him for what he is doing. This is so destructive and devastating as we all know.

After all this time, over 6 months since D-Day, I still can't conceive of how my H can be maintaining a life and a relationship with someone else. It can't possibly be the man I have known. I can't understand how he can be doing that.

What's so funny in a way is that the OW thinks of him as her soulmate/her true love. Given that he grew up with me, since the age of 18 and he is now almost 50, so much of him is part of me. I was thinking this morning that so much of my routine of life was developed in my relationship with him. So much of what he does is also affected by me. She's thinking that his routines are all him and she is in awe of him. That means that she is partly in awe of me. In other words, I helped prepare him for her. Does this make sense? I believe that we are of ONE FLESH as GOD DIRECTED.

These are my thoughts for this morning...

Looking forward to hearing from you guys.

I officially got approved for the loan on MY NEW HOUSE. It feels good to know that I can buy a house on my own without question from a bank. I never dreamed that my life would turn out like this.

However, I'm following God's lead in all this.

Yes, LouLou, I definitely am a Christian and have become even more renewed in my faith. I have some Bible verses that are guiding me, including these from Romans 8:

"In all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose"

"The mind of sinful man (WS) is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit (Me) is life and peace...

I'm continuing to pray for my WS that he will turn towards God and away from the Satanic forces which seem to have caught him.

Mimi,
I'm so happy for you, the new house will help you to focus on daily living and moving forward!
I understand completely the conflicting feelings that you are having. It's a daily battle for me as well.
I have the Lawyer's appt. tomorrow. I'm afraid that it will send a message that I have given up and wonder if WH will just move on with that and not look back.
I've fought hard and long for him, now it's time for him to fight for us and if he doesn't, then he's not the man I want anyways.
But I guess I can't worry about that anymore, if it's to be it will be. I've done all I can. Now it's time to protect me and the kids.
Good luck with the house and have fun with it!

Mimi -
First, congratulations on the mortgage approval for your new house! Are you ready to sign the papers? What do your sons think of the new house? I've lived in my house for 23 years and am scared of moving - too much accumulated stuff! LOL!

What you wrote about one day feeling so strong and the next day missing your WH is exactly what I've been feeling. The part about not believing that this is happening is also something I can relate to, especially when I first wake up in the morning. It's just so BIZARRE!! But then I wake up, literally and figuratively, and realize it's true, WH is gone, and I'm alone. It's a grieving process, maybe we're both going back and forth between the stages of grief.

My father and step-mother recently made an interesting comment to me. My father is a widower and my step-mother is a widow, they both lost their spouses unexpectedly while very young, so they know what grieving for a spouse is all about. They told me that the grief they felt had an end to it because death is final. What you and I and many other BS's are going through with our WS's is not final yet, there are many loose ends, we are in limbo, waiting to see where Plan B leads us. Call it fence-sitting, limbo, living with ambiguity, it's all a waiting game. Both of us will survive, and probably be better people when all is said and done, but some days are hard!

Mimi you've only been in Plan B for about a month. I think it's natural to wonder what WH is doing, but you will wonder less as time goes by. After 6 months my primary concern is to establish a new family unit, the most important thing in the world to me, and a task aimed toward the future. So many revelations have come to me since D-day! Sometimes they come in spurts and I have to sort them out, like the last 2 weeks. Maybe it's some kind of growing pains.

Well, there really isn't a better alternative to Plan B so we might as well make the best of it.

Lablady

What do you guys make of this?

The buyers of the house want to close ASAP. I would pay rent here until the closing of my house which would save me a mortgage payment here and at my new house. I can negotiate a small rental payment.

The realtor tells WS this and he flips, stating "Why are they rushing US ? WE were supposed to have one more month before the closing?" He is refusing to agree to this. The realtor told him that he will have to check with me because this is what I want to do. Realtor says: "Sounds like he still loves you despite how bad he has treated you". I don't know exactly what made her say this.

He hasn't called me yet. Is he now realizing that this is for real? He's losing his house and potentially his marriage? He's trying to stall, right, because he knows that he has to make a decision and get off the fence.

My plan is to proceed with the closing ASAP. That's what's best for me. That's what I do in PLAN B. Right? To me, he is continuing to want to "play like" he's my husband. Meanwhile, he goes on a weekend getaway with the OW.

All of this has been because of the decisions and choices that he has made: to have an A, to abandon me, and to buy a condo in which he "plays house" with the OW. I was supposed to sit here and wait until he finished with his entertainment.

What an ALIEN!!!

Mimi,
I'm in AWE of how things are going for you!!! Keep it up. Lots of us praying for you here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Orchid mentioned that WSes often take OPes to special places of WS and BS. What is that all about? Orchid said the attempt is to make the "memory into a nightmare'. <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I have another theory. Well, really, not me, but Bob Steinkamp.....ever heard of him? Well, he and his W run RejoiceMinistries in Pompano Beach, FL. He was the WS, 16 years ago! Now they help others (like us) navigate through this mess.

He writes stories, books, about the travels a WS (and sometimes the BS) takes through life as a WS (and sometimes as the BS). I strongly urge you to go read my thread on Prayer Requests entitled "Prodigals DO Come Home"

There are quotes from Bob's book by that title. If you do not have this book, and you are the BS, you NEED it!! Anyways, while waiting for your copy, please go read the thread. There's a chapter in the book explaining exactly WHY the WS's take the OP to "our" special places, or do "our" special things.......

I'm not gonna re-write it over here, cause it's posted over there, 2nd - it's late, and I don't want to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and final reason: without the book in front of me, I don't want to misquote any part of it.....but suffice it to say, Mimi, that it's all part of the WS mentality (and we ALL know about that, don't we?). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I goofed in that phone call last week. I probably gave him too much hope. He realized that I had not given up. Why else would he then take her on a trip right after that conversation?<hr /></blockquote>Forget about WHY he took that trip with her, but I agree about the other stuff. DO NOT ENGAGE in any conversations with him while in Plan B! Plan B is for YOU. You would have peace of mind, not thinking aobut his trip, his mindset, his plans, etc. You can concentrate on your future.....It's HIS TIME to "wonder" what is happening to his life....and to you. If you give him information - any information, then technically, you're not in Plan B, are you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And, yes, you probably gave him hope to keep stringing you along, while having vacations with <her>. This is why Plan B is no contact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hopefully as I proceed with moving and the house sale he will realize that I am really moving on.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, hopefully, he will. In the meantime, enjoy this!! It sounds so exciting!! Especially the way God is leading, and clearing the way for things to just work out!!!

When my WH left, I went to the Lord, and said, "Lord, I'm alone now. No H. YOU will have to be my H. YOU will have to provide for me...."
Mimi, He always did!! I never missed one payment on anything. I never ran out of anything, or lacked manpower or any help for anything my H normally had taken care of!!!! God is so faithful, if we call on Him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm continuing to have these opposing feelings and viewpoints....it almost seems impossible that I can forget and forgive him for what he is doing. <hr /></blockquote>Don't let your self think about this now. Satan will take this and have a heyday with it. Keep yourself strong, and your children will see how to handle adversity thrown at them without warning.

See, I got to a place where I realized God had made ME strong!! I mean, I alwasy was, but it was in MY strength. He wanted me to be strong IN HIM. Now, I think I am.....the difference now is that I know I am leaning on the Rock. And that the day will come when my H will need that ROCK. And the only place he will find it is with ME.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />over 6 months since D-Day, I still can't conceive of how my H can be maintaining a life and a relationship with someone else. It can't possibly be the man I have known. I can't understand how he can be doing that.<hr /></blockquote>I can go there in my head, too. Mimi, don't let yourself go there!!! These thoughts are of satan, to get your focus off God, to make you believe it is impossible that he will ever leave her, or come home. Remember, nothing is impossible with God! We can't understand WHAT is making them act this way, but it doesn't matter!! When the time is right, GOD WILL INTERVENE, AND THEN THE MEN WE KNOW, THE MEN WE MARRY WILL RETURN!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Given that he grew up with me, since the age of 18 and he is now almost 50, so much of him is part of me....so much of my routine of life was developed in my relationship with him. She's thinking that his routines are all him and she is in awe of him. That means that she is partly in awe of me. In other words, I helped prepare him for her. Does this make sense? I believe that we are of ONE FLESH as GOD DIRECTED<hr /></blockquote>Wow!! I think this is most profound!!! WOW!!!!
Anyway, think of this (also from Steinkamp's book), SHe is trying to "fit in" with his way of doing things.....Or make him over in HER ways. Meanwhile, HE is trying to make her into a duplicate of YOU, since he IS a part of you, and has done the things the way YOU TWO have done them for all these years.

problem is, they don't fit!! Never will. Cause he is YOUR One-flesh mate, not hers!!! SHE is the counterfeit. He is only trying to fit with her, to do everything HER way, or change her to HIS way, cause he's trying to recreate his life with you, with her. Does THAT make any sense?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The buyers of the house want to close ASAP. I would pay rent here until the closing of my house which would save me a mortgage payment here and at my new house. I can negotiate a small rental payment.

The realtor tells WS this and he flips, stating "Why are they rushing US ? WE were supposed to have one more month before the closing?" He is refusing to agree to this.
He hasn't called me yet. Is he now realizing that this is for real? He's losing his house and potentially his marriage? He's trying to stall, right, because he knows that he has to make a decision and get off the fence.<hr /></blockquote>Yep, I believe you've got it right.
Remember, you have to do what is best FOR YOU right now.....don't get sucked into his game, into his rationalizations, into his panic.

yes, his Freudian slips were showing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He was forgetting for a few moments that he wants NOTHING to do with yoU!!! He was panicking and seeing how it was all going to go away from him. POOF!! And you'd be gone. He sees his life with you slipping through his fingers, and he's starting to panic. ANOTHER reason, I believe, he went on the trip with her next day (trying to recreate his life, with a counterfeit), so it might still "feel normal"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My plan is to proceed with the closing ASAP. That's what's best for me. That's what I do in PLAN B.<hr /></blockquote>ABSOLUTELY Right!

You're doing great, Mimi. I really haven't posted much at all, cause you're getting great advice from so many other, smarter people.

I just wanted to share about the "counterfeit" thing, with OP taking our place, and silly WS's, trying to re-create a life. Funny thing, isn't it? They dont' go make a NEW life, they try to recreate the OLD ONE!!! The one they don't want anymore..............

Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mimi, I agree with LupoLady, MOVE FORWARD. Don't accommodate his little game. Don't let him think you are going to put your life on hold while he plays. He has made his choices and now it is time for you to make yours.

I am wondering how your boy is coping through all this, Mimi. My seperation was extremely hard on my boys. This is a terrible age for a boy to lose his father. This is when they need them the most. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hey Mimi,
How's it going?
Just thought I'd post here, hope you don't mind, I'm avoiding my own thread, just the whole family thing, I really feel violated, just giving it some space, maybe they'll loose interest?
Anyways, I'm feeling tired and blue today. I have the lawyers appt. today, to start the D process, just to protect myself financially and set up visitation. I want lawyer to find out what's up with the court order keeping WH from being alone with OW's kids? I know it's just OW's H tactic, but I can't be too sure when it comes to my kids. I don't want him taking them out of state to his place for now anyways, delay meeting OW, and only 4 yr. old wants to go anyways.
So he's backed off taking them this weekend,(wonder why?, he was so adamant about taking them as of last weekend). He called my friend to see if he can come up sat. and take them out for a few hours, says he doesn't know what he can do with them, he has no money.(So again he's adhering to my Plan B wishes and not calling me)
I'm not sure how starting D will affect him, I'm hoping I can stall the process as much as possible, I just feel at this point I have few options. I'm feeling sad about this. I don't want to be Learnin vs Mr. Learnin. Something about that sends shivers down my spine!
His cousins from California, who I spent time with over the 4th, spent a night with WH on their way home(he's close to airport). Cousin called me the other night to tell me about the visit. She said her and her brother(they are about 10 yrs. older than us) took him out to dinner and pretty much spent the evening telling him what a mistake he was making. They told him, the relationship wouldn't last and he would end up with nothing, a new relationship always feels good, life is hard, you have to work at it, the kids will suffer, not to fool himself that they will be fine, how can he be away from his kids, they are wonderful, and then they had all great things to say about me.
Not sure how much he heard, but I have to think something sinks in?
I really appreciated them not being afraid to make him uncomfortable. It would have been easy for them to just avoid the matter and have nice visit.
He did say he was angry with me(last letter to OW did it I'm sure).
I'm just feeling down today, I'm sure it's the thought of this whole D thing getting started. I DON'T want to do it , but have to. Sooo much paperwork too, I was up late last night and gave up, I'll try to hit it again today at work if I can and maybe get out early before my appt.
I started a new diet, no alcohol allowed! Man, I'll be wanting one tonight for sure!!
Thanks for listening and again sorry for the hijack!

Learnin:

Please feel free to hijack anytime. We are all in this together.

I've found it helpful to think of going to the lawyer as a means of protecting yourself and your children. It does not necessarily mean D. It can be a step to prevent D because if you begin to think of your WS too negatively because of his neglect of his family you will want to D him anyways. This is another means of guarding your love for him. Make sense?

I think that the A does suffer from increased exposure-takes away the fantasy aspect of it. However, as others have said, I'm beginning to realize that the process takes a lot of time and patience.

I'm beginning to get weary of all this and today feel like I want to be finished with it. I'm tired of being so unhappy. Life is much too short to waste time with this crap! What's so bizarre is that I'll feel entirely different in the next hour or so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Take Care. Let me hear how it goes with the lawyer. Please feel free to contact me on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi-

I've followed for a while, but want to read thoroghly before commenting... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll check back in later after I've gone through it.

Mimi,

Just wanted to let you know that I am following your situation and appreciate your thoughts on mine. I think you are right when you mentioned the need for time and patience. It is one of the hardest things to muster at a time like this, particularly patience.

now what

I know I'm MOVING FORWARD and working on my INDEPENDENCE but the feeling today is wanting someone to love me. I'm praying to be in love again. I am really lonely and don't like doing all of this stuff by myself. I'm supposed to feeling good about this opportunity but I'm not.

I hate it that my WS seems to have fooled me again. He fooled me into getting some comfort for himself in that last conversation. He convinced himself that I would still be waiting for him although I'm buying a house. Then he went off and took her on a trip while I sat at home alone on the weekend. I just can't understand that concept of wanting me AFTER he is finished with her. What would make him think that I would be considered for his leftovers and why would he want me after that? How can he conceive of that as being love?

I wish I could hate him and be finished with him as so many people tell me to do but I can't. Everybody says, "he's missing out, just go on with your life.. you're such a beautiful, classy lady, etc." but I cant'.

HELP!!!!

[ July 15, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I have been following your thread but haven't posted because I don't have much advice to offer. Just wanted you to know I am here and, when you find the answers let me know...I have been feeling exactly the same way and asking myself the same questions over and over and over......

What do you think is going on with me?

Scared about making that big step of moving out of my dream house?

I'm feeling like my whole life before now was a sham-almost a waste.

I want to call my WS and tell him how he has destroyed my life. I also am having rageful feelings towards this OW. I was wanting to go pay a visit to her at her office or even call her.

Wonder why this is going on today?

Mimi

My 2c worth.

I don't believe that plan B is 'supposed to make you feel good'. We have to face the fact that our WS's actions have put us (and them btw) in a ****ty position. Plan B is about plotting the best course out of that position, with the maximum chance of restoring the marital relationship. That doesn't make it easy, pleasant or even intuitive. Of course you want to be loved, we all do. Plan B is about giving you the best chance of achieving this from your current start-point.

Stop fretting about what comfort your H may have got from some conversation. Think about all the other conversations, interactions etc, where he got a belt of the 2x4. Think about how you take comfort from some of his actions. My point is, control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. Sometimes easier said than done I know, but something to strive for.

Also, he will not have rationalised the situation as you have done. He will not be (at least conciously) thinking of you as the 'fall-back option'. The fact that he can consider loving you while 'in love' with the OW, says 2 things. 1 - the fog, and 2 - that he still loves you.

keep up the good work you are doing in plan B. It isn't an easy road, but you have support here, you are doing well, and the low moments you expereience from time to time are part of the journey, but the endpoint of that journey will be a happier, better Mimi, who, if your WH regains his senses according to the usual timescale for 'aliens', will be accompanied by a better FWH, and who otherwise will be better placed than ever before in your life to find a mate who deserves you.

hang in there!

Hugs

S.

Mimi
I have been following your thread, and your last post struck home.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wish I could hate him and be finished with him as so many peope tell me to do but I can't. <hr /></blockquote>Loving someone so much somehow makes them a part of us. And when we love someone enough we feel they must love us in return.
I told my WW that in her entire life she would never find anyone who would love her as much as I do. She replied, "I know that's true, but it doesn't matter". How can it not matter.
How do you stop loving the WS who has been your heart and soul for so long? And how do you ever accept that they no longer feel the same about you? Everything you are going through could be so much easier if you could only stop the feelings that you have for them. But if you try to loose your love for them, you feel like you are loosing a part of yourself.

Mimi, you are getting good advice and support from so many here. There is never really much that I feel I can add. All us BSs go through so many of the same thoughts and crazy fog situations. Remember that you are never alone in this!

I know what you mean about wishing you could hate him and be finished with him ..... I have good reasons to be finished with my STBXWH, but my feelings of love haven't yet died.

I am so pleased to hear that you are moving house. I never did, never thought there was any need to, but in the last few days, I have been finding myself wondering what they got up to in my house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> It's almost as if I have been burgled!

I know it is really hard to control the urge to getta hold of the WS and OW and tell them how much they have screwed up your previously happy existence, but that would achieve nothing for you in the long term.

Plan B is all about tactical thinking.

Plan B is about protecting yourself emotionally and making preparations to cope with the next phase - whether that be reconciliation or divorce.

With regards to reconciliation, the BS must decide what their criteria would be for accepting the WS back. I have worked out what kind of husband I want. Should a miracle happen and I find myself discussing reconciliation with WH, my second question will be: How are you going to be a good husband for me? (The first question is, of course, Are you still in contact with the Concubine?!!)

Concerning divorce, well I did contemplate using DV as a way of turning up the pressure on WH. But trying to manipulate WH into coming home is not the reason to seek a divorce!!! The reason to seek a DV is because you believe that your future (and that of your children) will be better if you are no longer married.

BTW, my WH just took his Concubine to where we spent our honeymoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> This is also the same place that WH and I had our last little holiday together while I was on Army leave. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Why do they do it?
Short answer = they're idiots.
Long answer = see earlier posts. I think they are testing out the OP. OP will invariably fail.

Kia Kaha Mimi, (NZ Maori for Be Strong!)

Mimi,

Have you read that post called the 5 stages of grieving? Redhat carries the link in his sig line..... sometimes when we post his name...Redhat comes..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You can then read that post.

Your feelings are quite normal. It is a phase or stage a BS or any grieving person goes through. It is temporary but it does hurt and feels like it will last forever. But it doesn't.

L.

Hi MIMI , I have never posted to you but keep up reading on you awhile back Orchid told me to read your thread ,to help me with my situation ..

Anyway I wanted to through my support your way and tell ya I think you are doing great , much better then you think sometimes ..
AND I wanted to comment on one of your last posts .

First you are never and will never be left overs , keep that in mind YOU are and always will be the ONE ,,, HIS wife , you went on trips and other places with him long before OW .

SHE will always be second to you never the reverse . WHY do they do that , WELL through my H telling me why he took OW the palces we went and said the same things to her and even called her the same pet names yep she even told me that one her pet name I LMAO , I felt great ,, he did it cause things got well stale in away you know wasn't that FIRST falling in love thing ,,, so he tried to REcreate it with her NOT HAPPENING !!!

IT will never be the same you will always be more special , even if he didn't come home .

My H told me he got court up in the fantasy her fantasy and just tried for awhile to replace me ..

He will relize you can't be replaced .

One more thing (sorry so long ) When my H was out (before MB) a month or so before he begged to come home he started saying things that had an "US" swist on everything .

Always making a small refrence to future things , It drove me nuts for awile then when I did speack to him and he said, it I use to laugh and say things like ,,, HELLO if ya haven't noticed its "ME" you don't live here , or I think you forgot maybe you hit your head on her bed post but its not your decision what I do . ALL very matter a fact like ..

Any way read the greiving stages Orchid gave you , and never try to hate him that takes to much out of you and it won't happen , just try "TO BE" one day at a time , you will be suprised on how strong you really are ..

BE well , congrats on the house , and PLAN B your butt off .

get a heavy bag and boxing gloves in new house and swing at it everytime you think of OW . LOL

MiMi-

I'm only on page 20 but I wanted to STRONGLY suggest something to you.

It seems as if you are really pained about not being a good cook. I wanted to suggest that you think about a cooking class. I think that if you're interested in this, it may distract you enough and help you improve in an area that you feel lacking in.

The other thing I want to comment on is about the furniture. I'm going to say this as clear as I can - he left it because he had no intention of leaving forever. In a WS's twisted fog, having the stuff in the "home" is a safety net. "My things are there because it's my territory." As long as my stuff is there, the BS is accepting me and still there for me.

The most shocking thing that you can do to a WS is to pack it all up and deliver it to them. It sends a VERY clear message that you are DONE and not willing to enable the A any longer....

Put your worry to rest on the condo furniture issue. He probably will NEVER come for it unless you push him to.

I'm going back to reading now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi, read the comment about cooking. You can cook wonderful foods with just a few tips.
I like the suggestion about you taking a cooking class.
But a few things always necessary to remember even following a cookbook. And there are great sites online for recipes and instructions. Go look at Recipezaar.com., recipegoldmine.com,or just type in recipes and find many. I like recipes that do not call for a 100 ingredients! And can be made in 30 mins or less.
I found a great chicken Marsala one online that taste just like one we had on a cruise. And easiest recipe in the world to make!
I can whip that up in 30 mins or less ready to put on table. Everyone thinks is gourmet!
Once you get the hang of it, you'll love cooking!
Always remember, never try to rush it by turning burner up to high. LOL Easy does it.
I will say I'm a pretty good cook so if I can help in any way, just ask.
I'm sure many here are also, so we could send you a few recipes.
Keep on keeping on. You're doing great and I'm sure you've many talents that stand out so the cooking is not a huge problem!
It's just that men love to eat. LOL So we have to make em think we've spent hours in the kitchen, but haven't!
Blessings. LouLou

I LOVE YOU ALL!!! You are wonderful. What would I do without you? I've had a better day today. I will post more later when I have more time.

The condo furniture has been a safety blanket for me as well. When he first moved out and we were talking and I was not in Plan B, he said "if I come get the rest of my stuff, it won't mean that I'm not coming back". Despite this comment, he has not gotten his stuff after 3 months. I mostly like that it's probably making her a bit anxious. I want her to feel some pain. I'm not contacting him now-in Plan B. I was planning on taking it with me to my new house. What do you think? I really hate to get rid of it. I was just sitting on the couch tonight and enjoying it.

I'm taking a photography class now that I am really excited about. I will try a cooking class next. That's a great idea!

I'm thinking that they are doing a lot of eating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I don't eat much and WS would always encourage me to eat more during the false reconciliation when he was trying to get me to act like her, I've realized. I hope she is getting fat. He would hate that! I've never gotten a chance to see her body. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just Rambling.....

[ July 16, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, hope you are doing well! Get back here soon and let us know how your move is going. Take care!

Mimi-

I know why you would want to send that card to her, but truthfully, I think you shouldn't. If I was the OW and I received that, it surely would pi$$ me off, but it would also make me feel like I had the upper hand.

Girl, you're better than that!

Don't lower yourself to WH's standards. In the end, OW will get what is coming to her. I know that for a fact.

Just trust in you. I'm on page 21 now!

More to come soon.

Mimi,

I would not do that for the reasons Kily gave you on your thread and because I think that it will cause touble but not in a positive way for you. It will give them both something negative to focus on, YOU, and you especially do not want WH feeling that way right now.

now what

Mimi,

I would not do that for the reasons Kily gave you and because I think that it will cause touble but not in a positive way for you. It will give them both something negative to focus on, YOU, and you especially do not want WH feeling that way right now.

now what

I know that you are both so right. They do not have me to be a topic of conversation any longer.

I've just been having lots of rageful feelings about her lately. I mean really rageful!! I want her to suffer pain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Everybody that loves me and knows about this say the exact same things that you guys did. I even talked to my WS' best friend last night who was sad about WS not contacting him since April. He had some good news to share with him and was hoping that he was at home.

They all say that I do not want to sink to her level. That she is trash, I am a woman with class, etc....

Thanks for being there, you guys!!!!

Now What, I am going to be posting to you. I have been very busy over the past few days. I guess that's a good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I understand those feelings and have them too. No doubt about that! You are doing the right thing by not lowering yourself. The momentary gratification will hurt you in your efforts to reach your goal.
now what

Dear Mimi-

I completely understand your rageful feelings. I still have them to my H's OW. She knew she was destroying a marriage with 3 kids, she could see that my H was not moving out to be with her, and basically she used every tactic in her arsenal to try to get my man. What can I say? In your case, it is even worse because your H has been suckered by your OW's tactics. And the worst part is when we have to admit to ourselves that our Hs went along with it. However, that OP gave them the opportunity. And did so knowing the WS was married. So they are complicit.

Well, I wish the worst on my H's OW and I will throw some of those bad feelings the way of your H's OW! Still, I don't let these feelings play much part in my life or it would mean those OW won. They are not worth devoting even one grey cell to thinking about.

I second the motion to take a cooking class. What a great idea.

There is one other thing that I would say. In previous posts you have made comments that your H knows you are very religious and would never date while you are still married. Even if you are not ready to date, I would not let him have the comfort of that feeling. My POV would be, you are living with another woman, I plan on keeping busy and seeking companionship- of both men and women- and it is none of your business to delve into the extent of my friendships.

Mimi, I know you are going through a very painful time. Keep busy and I wish you the best!

My 20yo son's car got hit in a wreck and was totalled. He called his F to get help with the insurance claim since WS is a businessman. 20 yo left word that the call was urgent. WS has not called him. 20yo says his F does not care about him. Wants me to handle the business.

I decided that's what I will do. However, the car is in WS' name and he will need to be involved to some extent.

His irresponsibility, inability to be reached and neglect of his sons is angering me immensely. I even road by him in the car today, didn't speak and my heart did not skip a beat as usual. He seemed to look at me as if he is mad at me. I don't even care. That used to bother me.

He's up to something weird. He withdrew a large amount of money out of his checking account, a cash withdrawal. It's the same amount of money that I get for my child support/alimony. It was as if he thought I was going to take it midmonth which I never had done. It's probably some paranoid idea that OW has put in his mind. He is so controlled by her thinking. It's pitiful that such an intelligent, upwardly mobile man has sunk down to his level.

I'm moving forward.

Sorry about S's car, he wasn't hurt was he?

I know how you feel about the kid's feeling abandoned. The funny thing is the WS's are so adamant about "loving" their kids! Yeah, funny way to show it.

You can take care of the car stuff for sure!! I'm doing stuff all the time that I never tackled before. Last night I put together a basketball hoop for S!! Almost complete, just need my 16 yr.old to help with the last "heavy" part! It felt good, I though, Hell, I don't need WH!

He called last night, check out my thread, I'm not doing a very good Plan B.
I'll just need to keep out of sight when he show up tomorrow for the kids.
I can do this, you can do this.
Talk later.

Mimi-

Actually, I thnk that your husband is now starting to "react" torwards you for the sale of the house and such. He's starting to get pi$$ed off at you because you are moving on and he has lost the upper hand over you.

You will see more of this erratic behavior.

As for the house things- take the furniture with you if you like it. Once it's in YOUR new home then technically - it's yours, unless a court says otherwise.

As far as his things go - don't do anything with them. Pack everything of yours and move. Notify him - through your lawyer that he can come and get his things on such and such a date. If he doesn't come withing - certain amount of time - then put a stipulation in that the belongings will be considered abandoned and that you will call some charity to come and cart them off!!!

Watch the sparks fly then!

Sorry sbout your Son. This is typical WS attitude. I was the same way - BOW my head in shame...

The good news - I think you've really got a shot but it HAS to be a firm plan-b from here on out. No access whatsoever. Take care of EVERYTHING from now on. Do not call X for any help at all. Rely on you.

You are doing wonderfully!

Kily:

Why that reaction to his son?

Why are you saying such a strict PLAN B from now on? I plan to do that but wondered if there was a special reason based on my WS' pattern.

Last week when he caught me on the phone, he knew about the house but didn't seem pissed. Has he had time to think about it or was it that weekend trip with OW that did it?

Just wonder what your thoughts are.

I see that your H is going through a mid-life crisis. He's facing his mortality and in doing so - trying to fight the hands of time by reliving youth through OW. It really has little to do with what you did or didn't do for him during the marriage.

His "A" was his way of shucking all responsibilities and being young again. You and your kids are a reminder of his mortality issues because you are a significant part of his "real" life. He's running from any reminder of his old life right now. Unfortunately, your son is a part of that life too.

The house thing is a BIG deal because he sounds like he is VERY attached to it (you). You have stated otherwise, but I sincerely feel that his attachment is deeper than he has ever let on. House = Wife and family. Several times he has tried to get you to stay there. Several times you have made the decision to move on. That's why I think this.

Why a strict plan-B? I sincerely believe that he will come around. Also, it will cause you less pain in the long run because the roller coaster. I think that if you let him have OW 100% woth NOTHING from you, he will start to see her for the CHILD that she is. He will see what you've done without him, and he will regret not being a part of it.

Sure there are highs and lows that are deeper for a while, but after a few months, and a severe depressive cycle - you get to a new place. It's not hate that is your objective, it's a detachment to the point of indifference. I am VERY near that point now.

It's a weird place because you start to wonder if the "R" with H was ever real, it feels more like a dream that you had. I think of X now, and he is really a stranger to me. I have a hard time remembering what drew me to him in the first place or what it was about him that made me want to work on it so desperately.

I do realize that if we spent time together in a sincere effort to recommit that this would change, but I'm no longer letting it rule any of my choices. I NEVER believed that I could get there.

You can if you have to.

Mimi

Our resident MB coach, Cerri, has said that there is no such thing as a modified Plan B (It is like pregnancy, you are either pregnant or you are not). Plan B is not just to bring reality to the WS but to lay the groundwork for a possible marital recovery as well. It does no good if your WH ends the A and expresses a willingness to rebuild the M, only to find out that you have lost all the love you have for him and no longer wish to save the M. Without implementation of a real Plan B, you run the risk of that scenario becoming reality.

What is the age difference between 20-year-old son and OW?

She's older than I thought she was-32 or 33. Yet, she's still a lot younger than him. He will turn 50 in August, only a few more weeks. He looks it. I don't, by the way. I look more like her age. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's can't be easy for the 20-year-old to assimilate a woman 10 years his senior as his dad's new babe.

Did you ever rent the film "An Unmarried Woman"?

It might just cheer you up about now.

Pep

I haven't talked to my 20yo about the OW. He's in college in another city. He usually has a bad temper. However, it's interesting, he's responding to the marital separation by becoming depressed. He was very upset today saying F doesn't care, he has to worry me, I'm going through too much, his family is breaking up and then he has to have a wreck, etc. I had to really work to reassure him. My other son knows all about the OW and insists that I don't tell his brother. He thinks that his brother will react badly. My younger son, who is at home, is full of anger. I think it's depression too but that's how he is showing it. It's difficult for all of us.

I will try to get the movie. Isn't it an old movie. I think I've seen it.

Thanks PEPPERBAND!!!!

By the way, I happened to see the OW's whole body today for the first time. She has developed some fat rolls around the stomach. I told you that they have been eating a lot. I don't think he's attracted to her looks. She's losing on PHYSICAL ATTRACTIVENESS these days.

Well, off to the gym! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ July 18, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Dear Mimi, I've not had time to catch up on all but last two pages today. And it's time to cook dinner.
But do I understand you're 20 yr old isn't aware of A? Did I misunderstand?
Anyhow, have you considered counseling for your sons? I think they need it to vent and express their own feelings. Repressing them will do them no good. And they are old enough to know everything that is going on!
Keeping them protected, especially the 20 yr old could be more damaging.
I understand your concerns about son's grades also. That's why I think some counseling would be good for them in dealing with all this upheaval.
They should have counselors at your son's college.
As for F! It would be the last straw for me when he dumped my kids as responsibility to them.
He sounds like he's going to be one of those dads' who thinks the support money is the extent of his responsibility to them. NOT!
He's either part of their life or he's not. And I wouldn't have it any two ways in between.
Anger? You bet at him and OW.
You are doing great for you, BTW. Keep on keeping on and pretty soon perhaps you won't even care if UH comes to his senses.
If I'd gone this far, as you have, I wouldn't turn back one iota.
God bless, LouLou

I think my 20yo knows about the A but doesn't want to let on that he does. He was in anger management counseling in the past and purposefully uses avoidance to handle his anger. He stays away from situations that ignite him. Make sense? He tried to tell me that he thought his F was having an an A about 2 yrs. ago because WS' cell phone would always ring in the car when riding with him and he would not answer.

My 16 yo has refused to go back to counseling. It didn't help that I took him to see one right before my WS left and the counselor told him that we have a FAMILY PROBLEM and that he does not have a problem. That's the only thing he heard most clearly in the session.

WS has redeemed himself a tiny bit tonight. He tried to call me on my cellphone and at home but did not leave a message. Hopefully he's concerned about our son. Of course, he's supposed to call him and not me. Seems like he's using it as an excuse to make contact.

Where's the OW at 8:00 on Friday night? She was surely looking bad today. She has absolutely no class. She was dressed for work like she was going to a picnic. Not my style at all. I have to wonder about him wanting to be with such a woman. YUK!!

I got word that he's investing in a new business which explains the money withdrawal. That's a good thing for me.

Will keep you guys posted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Why are you saying such a strict PLAN B from now on? I plan to do that
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Where have I heard THAT before, Mimi?

A soft 2x4 for ya'... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As I briefly hinted at in a previous reply, seems EVERYTHING you do (based on what you write here)is centered on your husband. He did this/that, he said this/that, he is going here/there,, etc.

SO WHAT?

Remember I asked you to write a few paragraphs that had in no way, ANYTHING to do with your h? Personally, it doesn't bother me what you write here. But the point (of Plan B)is to change your focus.

Plan B is detaching and not centering your life on ANYTHING husband (but at the same time remembering you are still married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

It's not an easy process but it will help you in the long run, whether you get back together or not.
C'mon girl, get a plan and stick with it...

I think my 20yo knows about the A but doesn't want to let on that he does.
Of course he does. He probably knew before you did. But he gets stuck in the middle.

Now is the time for you to be Mom. He HAS to be able to open up with problems. Who else better than a parent. Well, Dad isn't a good choice, so Mom to the rescue.

He's been sitting on this for x years now and not having a clue what to do with it. He doesn't want you to get upset adn he can't talk to dad cause he's the big jerk who's doing it.

Sit him down THIS WEEK and have a heart to heart talk. Let him know what's going on.

Whatever you do (as much as you may want to), DO NOT slam your h! Your son knows he's an [censored]. You ned to show him that you can be the "good" one here. Show him how people should act and treat others with respect even when they are getting disrepected to the nth power. (that's a lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Chris:

Don't you think I've done tons. I got my house ready for sale, sold it, found a new house, just emptied this house today of furniture that I don't want. What makes you think I don't have a plan???

I'm sure like most people here, my WS, was my heart and soul for 30 years of my life. He was part of my identity. It's been hard to think of him as not being part of me. I was too dependent. Codependent...

It's so surprising to me that he thought that I didn't love him. He still claims to think that. I just had a long talk with an old friend who stated that WH used to wonder with her whether or not I loved him. He has stated that OW fulfills his need for ego-stroking, admiration. She thinks that I need to show that one last indication that I will fight for him, that I really love him. That viewpoint doesn't fit with PLAN B. But he does seem to continue to check it out and has said that he doesn't FEEL like I love him as he has loved me. Remember me finding all the cards professing his love for me? I took him so much for granted. That really hurts. Maybe I'm just not a demonstrative person. She's gotten me really confused after sharing how he confided with her. She is an elderly lady who was our piano teacher. Yes, we took lessons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What do you guys think ? Should I send him a red rose on our anniversary on July 31 as she suggests? Something to commemorate the day.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
It's so surprising to me that he thought that I didn't love him. He still claims to think that. <hr /></blockquote>Omigosh, Mimi. That's exactly what my H says too! When I tell him I love him, when I say, "do you realize how very much I love you?" he asks, "then why don't I feel it?" I certainly can't answer that. I have concentrated a LOT on his ENs during the 6 weeks we were working on recovery.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
He has stated that OW fulfills his need for ego-stroking, admiration. <hr /></blockquote>Ditto. Admiration is #2 on his EN list, and he has said that she was always so appreciative of things he did for her. Said I didn't appreciate things like when I worked real close to him, he would take me to lunch several times a week. He didn't feel I appreciated him for that. What was I supposed to do? It was obvious I was enjoying his company. Should I have thanked him for buying lunch each time? And I don't appreciate that he does the dry cleaning. Well, he has done the dry cleaning for the last three years, since he started working from home. For the previous 16 years, I did it all the time, with no expressions of appreciationg from him .

I am sorry, it sounds to me like my H is looking for excuses to justify his actions.

Sorry for hijacking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gee, my H said he has always known I love him. I feel taken for granted!
Mimi, about the red rose? Why not send it so he gets it at work? Making sure OW can't sabotage it.
Put a card or note stating that you do still love him! And always have.
That shouldn't change your Plans at all. You just keep moving forward after you do this.
Some men have to make up some excuse for their behavior. OW probably doesn't love him half as much as you do. She's got stars in her eyes about the financial situation so she's being taken care of! I'd bet it's money more than him that attracts her!
I imagine some whinny little bimbo pouting to get her way most times!
I'm not so sure about plan B and no contact whatsoever.
What do others think about you having dates with him? Dinner, dancing or whatever you like to do. Make it very romantic, be doting on him, but no SEX!
You can certainly make him feel like the king of the world without jumping in bed. Rein him in with wanting you! When it gets to that point, just tell him you aren't comfortable with being in line. That you save yourself for a one on one relationship totally. And if and when he ever decides he wants you back, it will be you and you only with NC with OW! It is possible to show someone you love them, but keep your independence!
LouLou

P.S, Why not deliver the flower and card in person? Along with a big hug, kiss and I still love you with all my heart. Then walk out.
There is a difference between making him take you for granted and showing you do love him! The point I believe in is showing him you do love him, want him, but only under your terms! That way you don't appear to have just given up totally and letting him walk for good!
LouLou

JMO, but if he doesn't know by now that she loves him after all this, then he will never know. I think the downside of delivering him a rose is that it reassures him that she is still standing by the sidelines waiting for him so he is free to play longer. He has looked for that reassurance in the past. It gives him no motivation to change the status quo.

I agree with Melody. You have stood by him for a long time while he chose the A over your M. You were there for him and haven't moved to divorce. You aren't on Marriage Builders for any other purpose other than to get support to save your marriage. What other message does all that send other than the fact that you love him?

Plus, remember that Plan B means no contact.

I think some sort of intervention from me might be in line.

There is trouble in paradise.

He has tried to reach me Friday night and this morning. I REALLY have not been available. At gym on Friday. At church today. Which is good. He is wondering probably why I'm not available.

I have not called him back.

The thing is, trying to reach me on the weekend? During their special time?

Come to think of it when I saw OW on Friday she looked troubled, unkempt and overweight. She is letting herself go. Remember too that he saw me on Friday and I was looking good as usual which is my natural way of being, not done for him. Also, rode on by and did not speak to him. He was spotted at the gym Friday which was our special place. I know Chris is saying that this is all about him but that is what I want to talk about right now-the independent, assertive lady that I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Just reporting that I feel good. I feel pursued. I still don't feel like he's ready though. When he called, he asked me to call him back. He could have left a message that he was ready for NO CONTACT.

About admiration, I really feel that I failed on this. I really feel like I did take him for granted and he may not have felt loved by me. I really regret this. I've been continually finding the cards that he sent me over the years. His words of love to me are so beautiful and it seems like it didn't mean anything to me then. I can't figure out why I didn't show him the love back. Can it really be true that I want him now because he doesn't want me. I don't think so. I think that I've loved him through it all. I have failed to be demonstrative.

Sometimes I think with a little more PLAN A I can win him back from her. I've heard love for me in his voice the last two times that we have talked. It's like he wants me to help him establish NO CONTACT. Does that make sense? His love for me was rekindled during the PLAN A. He couldn't make it through the withdrawal and during that time he still was not convinced of my love for him. These are just by honest feelings. Please no 2x4s.

The piano teacher friend who was my WS' confidante for several months says that I should do the exact same thing that LouLou says. I'm wondering if I should listen to her since she knows him so well. She apologizes for not telling me what my WH was telling her. I think he started his A soon after he abruptly quit his piano lessons and his contact with the piano teacher. I thought that was strange!

Mimi,
I don't get it. Plan B is working exactly as it is supposed to work and you are on here talking about gumming it up! The train is slowly, but surely, traveling to Duluth and you are proposing DERAILING the train because it is not moving fast enough. Get away from the train!

His affair is now in the DEATH THROES because of Plan B. He is now trying to get ALL of his needs met by the woefully inept OW and it is not working. You are seeing signs of this. HOWEVER, if you step in and start meeting these needs again, it will simply prolong the inevitable. [and prolong your misery]

He will be able to carry on longer with the OW if he is assured of your devotion and if you meet some of his needs.

In Plan B, he doesn't have the benefits of you BOTH, only one. And she is failing. As long as you are in Plan B, he knows he can't have both. You have given him a choice. Let him make that choice.

Please let her continue to FAIL. Stay out of the way, Mimi.

Melody,

I just needed to hear you say it!!

You are right, I am impatient. I will stand firm with the PLAN B.

Mimi:

I have 2 agree with Mel on this one. You're sitch has seemed 2 be following the plan B script pretty closely, and I think you do need 2 be careful about ending it 2 quickly.

Maybe Orchid could offer some suggestions. When her H wanted 2 come home, he called her from the OW's, with the OW in the background begging her 2 take him home... ...apparently, she told him 2 stay there a little longer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seems he needed 2 be sure he knew what he wanted, and Orchid certainly did.

I wish you all the best in this hard time.
-ol' 2long

mimi, mimi, mimi..
What are we going to do with you?
Your Plan B is working! Your NC is working! If it ain't broke don't fix it!
If you give him any indication that you are ready to catch him whenever he falls, you are enabling his A. As I have said before: As long as he believes that there is a net, he is going to continue to dance upon the wire.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
 When her H wanted 2 come home, he called her from the OW's, with the OW in the background begging her 2 take him home... ...apparently, she told him 2 stay there a little longer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>HAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA! I just love Orchid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

mimi,

Just one more person telling you to stick with Plan B. If your H comes back prematurely, it will just be more heartache. He has to understand how STUPID he was first! LOL. It really sounds like your Plan B is making an impact....and when you break NC you dilute the effectiveness of it.

"Stick to the road mon! Keep away from the moors!" (told to me by a drunken scotsman...concerning life"

Be strong. Be encouraged. You are doing just fine.

[ July 20, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

OK! OK! I'M LISTENING!!

I was just testing to see if you guys were paying attention to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm back on the saddle.

I've had a fun-filled afternoon. Are you listening, Chris? Went to my new house to think about furniture placement, went browsing at Barnes and Noble, bought some cooking
magazines there, got my favorite, a cinnamon scone....

THE CHASE CONTINUES.....

Will keep you posted.

Thanks for being there for me, you wonderful MBs. I am a perfect example of how much this forum is needed. I would make big mistakes without you guys. Just like I did several months ago.

More News:

20 year old son is happy because "My father called me today; he said he hopes I'm alright and will be in touch with me later". This was on son's voicemail.

Well, well, well....

What's going on this weekend????

[ July 20, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hello Mimi

LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm very happy plan B is working!

Isn't it amazing how things may turn out?
He is TRYING to contact you even with your son! hahaha he is getting desperate!

Keep at it!!!

Good luck

Mmimi, I will say this. Only you, and you alone, can decide what you feel like doing!
I wasn't suggesting you throw yourself to his mercy screaming for him to come back.
You said your piano teacher who knows you both well told you he felt you didn't love him.
Perhaps he feels that way even more now? Who knows?
What I was suggesting was that you make a small gesture as a reminder you didn't forget the anniversary!
Plan B may be working it seems, but which direction will it take him? Will he finally give up entirely believing you have absolutely no interest at all in him anymore? Or will it bring him to his knees in repentance?
Nobody can predict what will eventually occur.
And if OW and he are at odds, what would it prove to him to see you smiling, calm, happy and showing him you do love him still? That you thought of that special day you wed?
A gesture is just that. On you way continuing as you have been, but leaving him with something to think about!
Follow your heart! Talk to those who know you both well and have for years. There may be much wisdom in the older people surrounding you and your family!
BTW. have you sought any counseling for this Plan B and inquired of a professional( really qualified one I mean) as to how long you should go with it? Or what they think is best for your situation now?
I agree you cannot work on the marriage as long as he's with OW and not giving up. But does he really know you are willing to save the marriage and love him enough to work on it if he does give her up?
I've read you for a long time here, but have not really read all the thread here lately.
God bless, LouLou

LouLou:

I'm still considering your POV and may still make a gesture on our 27th anniversary. I am struggling with this issue.

I talked to the piano teacher again at length tonignt and have thought about my few conversations with him. Despite what I have stated in my PLAN B letters, my WS does continue to want reassurance that I love him. I remember in my last face to face talk with him, that last time when we had SF, he seemed convinced that she is the only one who loves him. He did not give the indication that he loved her, just liked the feeling she gave him regarding her care for him. I remember how unbelievable that was to me. How could she have convinced him of that and how have I not shown him love all these years or does he believe that he is unlovable?? I really believe that he didn't feel loved enough by me when he came back home. I didn't give him whatever that feeling is that she gives him. I do believe that he is not getting that same sense from her now. It seemed so incredible to me that the piano teacher knew this years ago. He expressed a lot of feelings to her that he only recently has shared with me. I wasn't listening to him before; OW was listening. He has said over and over that the A started because he "needed somebody to talk to" and music teacher said "He needed somebody to talk to". She volunteered this information. I did not tell her that my WS had been saying this.
That blew my mind that she knows him so well and they have not really talked in years.

I think something is going to happen in the next few days. WS has something brewing but who knows? OW has her spell.

I'm planning to schedule a session with Steve H. tomorrow. He is straightforward and innovative in his viewpoints regarding my WS. He does not stick to the firm rules of PLAN A or PLAN B. In fact, he never used those terms with me. I guess he's much more aware of the individual issues in each case.

I will keep you all posted and thanks for your interest in helping me,LouLou.

[ July 20, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I am headed back tomorrow from my 2 week training exercise, so I havent been able to follow along. So, forgive me if I am not up to speed.

I too have counseled with Steve Harley. I have read all of the stuff from the Harley's. And as you know, my wife is home now and we are working on our recovery.

That being said...it may be time to break out the 2x4 on you (and maybe even LadyLou...sorry girl, most of the time we agree...but Mimi is way to close to screw up now).

Correct me if I am wrong...you sent a Plan B letter, right? It said NC between you and him until OW is gone for good, right? What's the problem here?

Your WH KNOWS the way back. As you said, he remembers your great Plan A. OOOHHHHH how he remembers. Each day that the OW continues to LB and look like the ugly toad, is each day that he can remember his life with you, and the time where you showed him his future with you (Plan A). That is the whole Plan A idea. To put in his mind what can be. But, as Steve Harley has told me before, rarely can you do just Plan A. Most of the time, it requires Plan B to bring them out of the fog.

You know the jargon, so I wont repeat it (about saving your love for him, your husband gets stuck having his needs met by OW, etc). All of this is absolutely true.

So, Mimi has done a great Plan A. Then, she goes and does a reasonably well Plan B. And predictably, your WH is following the script and being led out of the fog. Why is this hapening? Seriously, ask yourself why these events are now happening. Try to put yourself in your husbands shoes. It goes something like this...

Now fully in Plan B, originally (early on), it was a relief to have the constant reminder of his failings (you) in front of him. It was nice to think that he was finally going to be able to be alone with her and maybe see what happens. But, from the moment this quiet time started, something began not to feel right. Left to their own devices, the two of them begin to let their guard down and show their real selves. There is no longer an outside enemy to their relationship.

But wait a minute. Now that you can look at it from the outside...oopppps, I can see a small crack, an enemy within put in place by Mimi. What is that enemy? It is the combination of Plan A in his mind, and that damned Plan B letter (his way out of the mess). In the back of his mind, a crisis is developing. He has seen Mimi at her best. She has now given him a letter explaining how he can have that again. And now she is gone.

Now, he is truly alone with the OW. And she is now at her "best." Problem is, that nagging feeling in the back of his mind that there is something better back home begins to creep into their relationship. Devious, huh? (One note...ENJOY Plan B! You should absolutely enjoy it. Why? As far as I am concerned, it is payback time. For the hurt, pain...for the loss of control over your own world. In Plan B, the power begins to shift back to the BS...so much so that the WS ends up in a position in the end of almost total submission to the will of the BS...more on that below).

So, he unkowingly has been setup for failure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . And so, it is only a matter of time before things make it to critical mass. In your case, I definitely see the needle in the red zone!

So, due to your devious virus you have put into their relationship (Plan A and B), you have set the timer on the destruction of their relationship. It is about ready to blow.

But wait a minute! Just before your WH and OW are about to be emotionally blown out of the water, you want to save him. Why is that? This is your chance at payback. He made his bed, let him lie in it. Let him feel the FULL brunt of the consequences of his actions. Shoot, I LOVE what Orhid did by sending her husband back when he first inquired.

Now why do I say all of this? First of all, it is good for you. It will help you to feel better by knowing that you werent the only one that got to feel pain here. And the beauty of this, it is HIS actions that are causing his own pain.

The second reason to stay the course is that if you rescue him now, he will have learned nothing. He will not have felt the complete utter despair of the guilt of what he has done, and the knowledge of what he is about to lose. I know you love him Mimi, and most of us want to spare our spouses as much pain as possible.

But Mimi, he NEEDS to hurt. He needs to feel this. He needs to understand EXACTLY what damage hus actions have caused. If you try to help him now, he will learn nothing. And you are doomed to repeat it.

How many of us BSs are going to go back to treating our spouses like we treated them before the A? None, I would guess. Why? Because who the heck wants to go back through this pain again. We will do anything to be the spouses that our spouses need. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MARRIAGES THAT REBUILD AFTER SOMETHING LIKE THIS ACTUALLY END UP STRONGER...IT IS CALLED FEAR OF PAIN. Dr. Harley mentions this on the website here. That once recovery starts, most couples do so with great zeal. Why? Because they want to get as far away from the hurt as possible...and never, ever go back there.

Now, Mimi...your husband isnt stupid (although the choice of an affair, and even the quality of affair partner, may leave his intelligence open to question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). He has read your Plan B letter. He knows the way out. His calls to you, to your son, are cries for help. They are cries for help because he is looking for a way out of his increasing pain anyway he can...except for the only way that you have spelled out. In order to do it your way, he has to fully delve into the pain. He doesnt want to do that.

So, Mimi sends him flowers for the anniversay, of cards, or whatever. And then you spare him the pain. But you are also sparing him the ability to get his life back together. He NEEDS that pain. Sometimes, it isnt love to spare pain. If someone needs a surgery done, there is great pain...but all for that persons good. If you dont get the surgery, you may save some temporary intial pain...but the pain that comes from neglecting what they needed to fix, will come back ten times stronger later.

Mimi, do not spare him the pain. In the middle of my Plan B last December, I made it a point that we would not spend one minute together over Christmas. No family time with her, me and the kids. No sharing of Christmas lists on what to buy the kids. No joint Christmas where we could be together as a family. Nothing. Did it hurt. Sure. But it was the BEST thing I could have done for my marriage.

My wife went off the charts angry when two weeks into Plan B, I would not back down and have a good Christmas together "for the sake of the kids." She went so ballistic that she flung herself at the OM, planned a trip to Florida with the OM over Christmas to meet his family, and actively pushed her situation in order to quickly move her life forward with him.

But all that did was hasten the death of the relationship. The kids were with me Christmas day. The next day, she picked up the kids (since she had by then returned from Florida) and kept them at her apartment for two days. But my kids even said...it wasnt really Christmas. My wife was out of it most of the time, and didnt seem to want to spend much time with them after they opened their presents. She would lay on the couch, and take naps (all of this is very uncharacteristic of her with the kids).

Mimi, her pain had increased. He trip to Florida had been a disaster. She met his family and saw how he acted around them...and didnt like it. She saw how he wasnt being a real dad to his two daughters that were living in Florida with his ex. And one night while there, while they were having sex, the OM called my wife by his ex wife's name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

Her pain was now off the charts. So, after having the kids for two days, she brings them back and wants to talk. I told her that I wasnt going to talk, as was outlined in my PBL. Now, if she was ready to talk NC with OM, then we had something there. She said she needed time, that there was a lot she needed to work through...and couldnt I just be a friend to her and be there for her while she worked it out (gag!)?

Well, NO! That would be what we call ENABELING! I told her OM or MM. I reiterated the PBL...even asking her she needed another copy. She then got angry, saying I never cared for her or her views...that this just proves that I will never be there for her and the changes she has seen in me are false...blah, blah, blah!

I told her "Whatever...honey, you know the way out of this." ANd I turned around and walked back into my house.

For the next 3 weeks, I heard nothing from her. Once or twice a week, she would call or come by to see the kids. I wouldnt talk to her. Just passed the phone to the kids. Or if she was coming to get them, my oldest watched for her and then they ran out to meet her and left with her. I went completely DARK!

Well three weeks later, there is a surprise knock on my door at 8pm at night. It seems my wife has just gotten off work, and wanted to come by to see the kids. So, I let her in, I went into the kitchen and she went downstairs with the kids.

TEN MINUTES later, she comes up (so, she came to see the kids huh?). She wants to talk. She says she wants to discuss some things. I asked what. She started to try to berate me, to get me to engage in a conversation...or an argument iif she could. I told her she had to leave. She asked "What if I dont?" I told her I would call the police. She then said "Well, I guess you are going to have to do that."

So, for the next 4 hours, we sat at my kitchen table while she told me everything, and told me how she wanted to know how to get this all back. I reiterated that she had to have NC with OM...and that she (and then both of us later) needed counseling.

I let her leave without promisisng anything. As a matter of fact, she tried to suck me in again as she went to walk out the door, asking me to give her time. I told her no, that the letter stands. And then I told her that under no circumstances was she to EVER just drop by again. There was a look of surprise in her eyes. Here she thought we had a great conversation, and probably thought she had me back on the reservation and supporting her fence sitting due to our calm conversation (with even some laughter in it). And then I end it by saying nothing has changed, dont drop by again, do not call...until Plan B letter requirements are met.

A week later, she says she in a phone message that she knows she has to end things with OM, even if we do not work out (the first real crack!). I DO NOT RESPOND! Then, she calls and says that she has made an appointment with the same counselor that me and the kids are going to. She asks if I want to do marriage counseling together. I reply back to her that...no, no marriage counseling until we have a marriage. I will go to counseling with her, only in regards to the kids (as they were seeing this counselor also). So, I went to two sessions with her, where she tried to get counselor to enlist me in baking her a large cake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . The counselor didnt...and I didnt. As a matter of fact, after the second time...I refused to go anymore. She could go with the kidso n her own time, and me on mine.

I was playing hardball. Always the same message. It is shortly thereafter, that in the midst of my wife being VERY sick, and OM LBing her and also leaving her sick and alone to go to some job thing out of town, that I got the call saying that she wants to come home and was ending things with him. A week later, she did end it with him...and a few short weeks later, after some counseling, a few dates, and me allowing her to get thru the worst of withdrawal, we moved her home.

I know this has been long Mimi. But I want you to understand. There is only one way through this now. You spelled it out to him. Dont lie to him. Dont tell him NC with OW or else...and then back down. Keep your word.

I agree with you though. I think you are probably days away from a resolution (he is thinking about that anniversary also!).

Hang tough...stay the course. Stay in Plan B. Stay dark. No calls, presents, slowers, emails...nothing! This is what has gotten him to this point. Dont blow it now.

In His arms.

Mimi

Print out this post from MM and frame it - I think I will!

An excellent justification for doing plan B properly. The only thing I would add (for emphasis) is that (unnecessary - i.e. not related to kids etc) contact between you and your WH during plan B will be like contact between a WS and the OP during withdrawal - it sets the clock back. Be strong. He knows the love for him is there - that was what you did during plan A. Forget the piano teacher. She is just telling you that there were problems in the past with the relationship - you know this!

Don't beat yourself up on it - you can't change what has gone before. You have shown you can change for the future - you did this with plan A. Plan B has shown him the way back. Stick to it and be strong. You are doing great.

S.

WW is acting true to course and I almost goofed. I need help. Somebody please tell me exactly what to do because I am not thinking clearly!

WS says he wants to reconcile. Wants me to back off of getting the house that I chose. Wants to choose another bigger house to live in with me. He is focusing on the house issue but has said nothing about being sorry about what he has put me through. Just seems desperate to get away from his life with the OW.

I just said, like an idiot, out of shock and disbelief, "We need to talk and go more slowly".

What do I say to recover in the next conversation? I don't know why I whimped out this morning. I don't feel strong. I know I am making a mistake. I am still afraid of making him mad. It is an issue for me. He is definitely being controlling not repentant.

He is not saying the right things, Mimi. He needs to first seperate from the OW and present evidence of this via a no contact letter. THEN you can begin to listen to his plan of recovery.

What is his plan to recover the damage to your marriage? You don't EVEN want to have to live through another false recovery when he strings you along for few weeks and then goes back to the OW. Slooooooooooooooooow and easy here.

His words are just that, words that have not been backed up with any action. HE IS STILL WITH THE OW, remember. WS' have lots and lots of meaningless WORDS. And not even the RIGHT words at that. I don't think he's ready to do anything yet, but is merely experiencing some mild panic at your independence.

LET HIM PANIC! Let him panic enough to do the RIGHT THINGS, such as end the affair. [as a beginning]

You can't put off your new house for this wimpy little show. Just remember, you have been through all this before, with the empty promises, etc, etc.

Stay the course, Mimi, and make him PROVE to you that this is all over. In the meantime, don't vacate your plans to buy the new house. If he does come back, he can live in that house with you.

You weren't weak, you were shocked! You did fine! You're rocking his world with all this reality. If/when you get together to talk, just stand firm on your list of "demands" for getting back together. He's only just peeking out of the fog, but that's SOMETHING!

Some WS's take longer to come to the point of true regret. He's probly hoping just to come back home and move on as if nothing happend. You KNOW it doesn't work that way, but his foggy brain doesn't. It's pain avoidance...the entire affair is pain avoidance. It hurts to realize how stupid he's acted and it hurts deeply to know that you've caused someone you love very much such horrible pain. He wants to avoid dealing with those consequences. He wants to believe it can be "all better".

Hang in there Mimi!! I also don't know exactly what you should do, but hopefully the experts will be here soon to give you some good hints! GOOD LUCK!!

I need to go ahead with the house for sure.

I forgot to mention that his concern is that my new house is on the same side of town where she lives and he is wanting to hide from her, I guess.

Do I actually meet with him today?

I haven't seen him in about 6 weeks.

I have to hear more specifically whether he is meeting my conditions. He was rushing on the phone, going into jury duty of all things.

THANKS, YOU GUYS!!!!

[ July 21, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,
I would suggest leaving him a VOICE MESSAGE while he is in jury duty telling him that you do plan on going forth with the house and that when he discontinues ALL CONTACT with the OW, as per your letter, to give you a call and THEN - ONLY THEN - will you discuss possible reconciliation.

Until that happens, you are moving on with your life!

He is trying to yank you off track, Mimi. Please don't let him do it.

[ July 21, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Right now, you have all the control. He is trying desperately to take that back. Please don't give it back to him, Mimi. He has ABUSED that control in the past and will do it again if you let him.

Better yet-

Tell him you want an NC letter mailed together by you and he TODAY, and you will consider stalling the house stuff. Make it clear that unless he committs to it TODAY, then you have to keep moving forward.

Of course I will insist on the NC letter and other conditions before reconsidering buying the house and thinking of reconciliation.

I'm thinking that he's planning on the NC letter. I've made it clear that there is no other way.

My question is: "Do I meet with him face to face?"

I think I need to have more discussions with him.

I can't reach him by VOICEMAIL. He'll probably be calling me.

He says he wants us to buy a more expensive house together in a gated community. (Afraid of her?) That's a big step from being with OW in the condo each weekend. It's incredible that he is seeing that as an option. Almost bizarre!!

He needs to be completely honest with me about this, for sure.

Mimi

I'd respectfully (very respectfully actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) disagree with Kily here. I would go ahead with the house come what may. Communicate to your husband via voice mail, e-mail or letter (don't talk direct to him), that he knows what he has to do to begin a discussion on reconciliation. That is in your plan B letter, but re-iterate it now. The are the preconditions to discussion about reconciliation.

Remember the bigger picture Mimi. You showed him what he was losing with your plan A. With plan B you took it away from him and got on with your life. You are on a new train now. He has a ticket with a built-in expiry date there. The longer he leaves the faster that train is going and eventually he won't be able to catch it. A result of that process is a better Mimi living a new life. He has his invitation to join. There is a price to be paid and that has been made clear in your plan B letter.

He will do anything to haggle about the price - e.g. give me time, don't sell the house etc. He will even try to justify this (e.g. don't want to live near OW). It is all fog-talk. I have several hundred people live in a half-mile radius of me. How many of them do I know? I have people who live 200 feet for me and I might go 6 weeks without even seeing them. So what if she lives on the same side of town. She can be avoided if he really wants to. He is holding on to that fence for dear life. Your plan B train is running alongside and shaking the fenceposts. He knows is going to fall off. He wants you to stop the engine so that his fall is delayed. Don't

Be strong

S.

Mimi,
I would ask for MORE THAN WORDS. And I wouldn't meet with him until he has ended contact with the OW in order to dicuss the possibility of reconciliation. Move too fast here and you are DOOMED TO FAILURE and more heartache.

He has said words before. I would expect a demonstration, ie: complete end to his affair for some time in addition to the NC letter. The NC letter doesn't mean anything if it's not backed up by actions. He has told you he was ending contact before.

And I wouldn't put off the purchase of the house. Why should you? You want the house, don't you? He can't just come waltzing back making demands after what he has done.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Salerio:


He will do anything to haggle about the price - e.g. give me time, don't sell the house etc. He will even try to justify this (e.g. don't want to live near OW). It is all fog-talk. I have several hundred people live in a half-mile radius of me. How many of them do I know? I have people who live 200 feet for me and I might go 6 weeks without even seeing them. So what if she lives on the same side of town. She can be avoided if he really wants to. He is holding on to that fence for dear life. Your plan B train is running alongside and shaking the fenceposts. He knows is going to fall off. He wants you to stop the engine so that his fall is delayed. Don't

Be strong

S.<hr /></blockquote>Salerio is absolutely right. Don't let him pull you off track, Mimi, with MORE empty talk. It will only lead to more heartache. He is getting scared and only wants you back in place. Wanting to get control of your housing situation is NOT a condition you set down in your Plan B letter. Complete seperation from the OW is.

PLAN B is working, Mimi!! Don't throw in the towel now!

Mimi,

Tell him, thanks for his thoughts and you now need time to think about it.

L.

He's not "there" yet Mimi.

Hold steady your course.

Your tender heart makes you want to help him get back home ... he's a proud man, he has to know he did the tough things himself to earn his way back.

Don't give him anything, it will diminish his self respect when this is all over. He earns his self respect back by being the man he is supposed to be ... not by the grace of your tender heart.

Save your tenderness for later. Right now, you are a goddess just out of his reach.

Let HIM reach for you, don't reach back.

Love, Pep

I like the idea of him providing PROOF, a plan that is believable to me.

I'm moving forward. The bank called about me proceeding with the loan. I meet with the movers for an estimate this afternoon.

He probably hears in my voice that I'm not ecstatic about this house. It is on a lower level than I am used to. At this time in my life, I had expected to be moving up rather than moving downward. I'm moving from my dream house that we designed into a house with no wallpaper and no shower door in one bathroom. I hate to sound snooty!! But maybe I'll be happier there. I tried to make myself feel happier there yesterday but it is below my standards. WS knows this about me and was asking me questions about it, regarding the fixtures, etc., trying to offer me more. That has been his style in the marriage, showing me love by buying me stuff. Interesting, he had indicated being intrigued by the OW's lack of class and lower standards. I'm confused. He has thrown me off track. He knows me. He's been my life partner. I'm supposed to buy a house with him, not independently.

I'm not sure what to do. I'm listening to you guys but still am confused about what to do.

I'm getting in my car to pray. I'm going to put it in God's hands.

If he meets my conditions and he provides PROOF (that I really can believe in my heart and soul), then I might allow him to come live in the house with me. If he wants me, he will comply with my wishes on this. Salerio is right if he is for real it doesn't matter if we live down the street from her. He won't be able to completely avoid her in this town. We do not live in a large enough city for that.

The ball is in his court. He will have to pursue me again today. He just MIGHT have the NC letter in mind. Also, you are right, Melody, it will have to be more than that. I'm not sure exactly what I need. A willingness to live in the house I chose??? Kissing me feet?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know true repentance is needed. I'm not hearing that from him. He just sounds really desperate to be relieved from her for some reason. Of course, we only had a 5 minute conversation.

Mimi-

I agree with Salerio 100% actually! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The point that I was making was that unless he was 100% committed then do not change your path for anything.

I mentioned a few posts back that he was more attached to the house (you) then he let on. Well guess what. This attachment is what's driving his current behavior.

The scales have now tipped and he has the first feeling of PANIC due to his choices. His current reactions are what you see today. He is now in pain and is trying desperately to get rid of that pain. Don't enable him by giving in. He needs to feel pain in order for that FOG to clear.

I agree with Melody Lane too. I think that you should not have face to face contact until he meets those few requirements. He needs to show you that he wants this and isn't simply yankin your chain.

Tell him #1 - you want the voicemail service reactivated for YOUR convinience.

#2 NC letter signed and mailed. Nothing less...

#3 Whatever else your little heart desires. Don't make it easy.

I think this is a tricky situation and I really hope you will talk with Steve about how to proceed. I think there are alot of nuances to navigating the road to recovery.

I do think there are some negatives to beginning recovery (if it does happen) in a house that WS did not help choose, and in a house that is not as appealing, and in a house where he is vulnerable to the sight of OW. I would not dismiss your WH's concerns offhandedly.

I found that while my WH was in the fog, I did have to talk to him and try to explain things to him. Sometimes my words would penetrate. So I think there might be some value into TALKING with your WS, and trying to get him to go through his logic. And just discuss it calmly and very reasonably. Ask him about his plans. Point out calmly any flaws in his logical thinking. I did this with my WS and he started to realize that his fantasy would not work.

For example, he was going to move a few hours away to spend the summer "exploring the OW". I said, "fine, let's figure out a visitation schedule and you can drive down to pick the kids up and bring them back to your house." When he realized that he'd be spending 3 or 4 hours just getting them suddenly the idea of his country hideaway became much less appealing.

While I do believe in Plan B, I think the WS has to be guided back home. They have to know the door is open. That requires some communication with them. Even in Mortarman's description, he did have some communication with his WW during Plan B, during which he reiterated his conditions for her to come home.

I would not rush forward too fast on this new house. get Steve's advice!!!

Talked to WS and will try to give you guys the gist of the conversation.

I asked him what his plan is for ending the contact with OW. Told him I expected NC letter today.

This initially made him angry, stated that I was giving him the feeling that I only wanted him back on my terms, that I was being "adverserial".

I maintained my position. Stated that I was not being argumentative, that I was protecting myself from further hurt, that I was no longer going to be disrespected by him.

He wanted to tell me HIS PLAN. I listened. He claims that he has learned of her vindictiveness. Claims to be afraid of her, that she might kill him or have him killed.( Her last BF was in jail. She is from that side of the tracks which made me wonder about him being with her in the first place.) He wants to buy us new cars fo anonymity. He states he needs to move out of his condo because if he stays there after NC she will harass him and make his life hell.

I state my plan to proceed with the new house. If we do reconcile, maybe he can live with me there. However, not right now. He states a plan to live somewhere else first.

Told him that I do not plan to put myself in the position of him leaving me again. I know life holds know guarantees but we have to work on our marital issues through therapy, using MB principles, etc. He claims that there would be no turning back for him. He has been reading SAA. Didn't want to live on her side of town because of temptation of getting back into the addiction.

He described the problems in their relationship. Her 12 year old daughter, her wanting to go out with him in town, him realizing her vindictiveness, meanness, etc. They have no history together, he really loves me.

He will have to prove this right? There is value in PLAN A. He is remembering it. He does know that I love him. MM is right. He is seeing her as a toad.

He is agreeable and understandable that I will have NC with him until he is willing to meet my conditions.

Your thoughts?

[ July 21, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Now he calls back and says that whether or not we get back together or not, whether I will take him back or not, he wants me to have a better house more in line with my standards. Says he's embarassed to have put me in this position. He says he knows that he created this situation.

He is in a begging mode.

He wants to give me more money for the downpayment and for me to go out and get the house that I REALLY LIKE without worrying so much about the budget.

[ July 21, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

"I will purchase a home that I can afford myself without financial worry."

KISS (keep it simple stupid)

The mortgage payment would be the same. I would make a larger downpayment.

This isn't about a house ... it's about a marriage and self respect and respect for boundaries.

Is he honoring your Plan B?

WS' style is consistent: showing his love through buying things for me. Wanting me to show appreciation/admiration, his major EN.

I will have no more contact with him until NC letter which he states he will write but has not done it yet.

He did agree to counseling in the last phone conversation. He stated an awareness that "we have a lot of work to do after going through all of this that I put you through".

I have an appt. with Steve Harley on Thursday.

We'll see. I'm still moving forward but there does seem to be a real crack.

[ July 21, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Please don't take this for a slam (I could do a LOT better in that dept <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Just some constructive criticism...

I will have no more contact with him until NC letter which he states he will write but has not done it yet.

He did agree to counseling in the last phone conversation. He stated an awareness that "we have a lot of work to do after going through all of this that I put you through".

I don't understand where you are today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Is it;
No contact?
Some contact?
A lot of contact?
Only some contact on odd days?
A lot of contact on every other Monday and no contact on Tuesday-Thursday, followed by medium contact every other full moon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

ad nauseum...

Has he ended the affair and agreed to no contact? This is what he should agree BEFORE you start talking about what is needed for reconciliation.

I have an appt. with Steve Harley on Thursday.

Excellent. Much better than all of us "wanna be counselors" anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Is this your first call with him?

[ July 21, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

I have no idea where I am today. I am totally confused !! My WS really is saying all the right things. Chris, I wish I could be as strong as you seem to feel like I can be. I've always had a hard time with PLAN B. You guys know how I struggle with it. Just keep pushing me. I keep getting back on the horse. I'm trying to hang in here on the forum and not run away like I did last time.

I'm really frigntened now.

I think the key now is to do what I think is really best for myself. I really have to think on that today.

I really didn't want that house. I was really settling for it. I was trying to convince myself of it yesterday when I went by. He maybe stringing me along with the money. However, do I need to live in a place where I really won't be happy? My WS has got a point.

I have had several sessions with Steve Harley. My WS had one session with him.

Steve has never been as "stick with the plan" as you guys. However, he does know all of the special issues in my case.

[ July 21, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

"I'm really frightened now."

see..... you let him into your head. You weren't frightened until you allowed him into your thinking process.

Pep

Mimi-

You asked for it so here it comes...

Ws is trying to establish himself in YOUR new life by BUYING you. He's dangling money in front tof you like a carrot. Why?

Well here's what I see.

Mimi has decided to move on. She's no longer participating in the triangle - (hiccup that we'll ignore here) and she's settling for something that will work for her. It may not be her number one dream, but it was hers. She found it and felt comfortable with a future there.

All alond WS has been trying to get little snippets about Mimi's new plans. Mimi has been very vague and for a greart reason. Now all of a sudden, WH panics and throws out any thing he possibly can to influence Mimi's life. Why?

Two reasons. He's loosing control of his fantasy life and his fall back position is being altered because you aren't playing the game his way any longer.

Mimi - why do you think he wants a better house for (you?) He wants you to buy the house that HE will feel most comfortabl in IF he decides to grace your doorstep with his cheating a$$. He makes himself out to be such a generous guy - Oh I'll give her a little extra cash so she will think I'm thinking of HER interests. Nope. He's playing fishing again and trying to bait you onto that hook!

No contact - unless a commitment is made!

I hope I shook you up a little...it's done with love.

Chris, I wish I could be as strong as you seem to feel like I can be.
One step at a time. When ANY contact is made or even think it may occur, STOP & think, “why is it happening and what will it get me?”

I've always had a hard time with PLAN B.
You’re not alone. It’s NOT easy by any means.

Just keep pushing me. I keep getting back on the horse.
You have to set your mind to DO IT and to stay on the horse or the horse will keep on moving as soon as you try to get back on without changing your tactics.

I think the key now is to do what I think is really best for myself.
And that is the idea behind Plan B. It’s not fun to do it either. But which would you rather do? Eat broken glass (hurts in the long run) or hit your leg with a 2x4 (hurts for w little while)? Neither one is fun but you have to choose.

I really didn't want that house. I was really settling for it. I was trying to convince myself of it yesterday when I went by. He maybe stringing me along with the money. However, do I need to live in a place where I really won't be happy?
Don’t get any old place just to be free from him.

Mimi

be careful now. Expect your emotions to be giving you conflicting messages. Remember how you chose this house - why did YOU choose it? It was right for you then, what makes it wrong for you now?

I agree with pepper and kily (glad to be on her side again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) - don't let him get control or introduce dependency here. My suggestion is this:

Get a piece of paper. Write out on one side your financial restrictions etc. On the other write out your desired features in a house. Now reconcile the two, i.e. what can you afford. Get some brochures, visit some estate agents. Convince yourself as to whether this house represents a good match to your list or not. Do this in isolation of your WH and forget about his offer of money. If you're not sure then, fair enough, look at other places. Otherwise you've found your new home.

Remember the big prize. Getting your marriage back better than ever. If you get that, what does it matter if you have to sell again, or your house isn't wuite perfect. It can be dealt with then. Your marriage (and specifically you now that you are in plan B) is the main priority. Get yourself sorted out and watch your WH come running after you.

You are doing a good job, but you are finding plan B hard. Of course you are - all roads out of this hell are hard. But you have a road that DOES lead out, and is straight and has room for your WH if he decides to follow it.

Be strong now. We are all here for you.

S.

From Kily: :
She found it and felt comfortable with a future there.

To be honest, this is really not true. I don't REALLY want to live anywhere without him. I'm only playacting. I can't really imagine being happy without him. I don't like the independence that has been forced upon me. I hate it! I want somebody to take care of me. Just being honest!

He wants the house he will be most comfortable in IF he decides to come back.
What if I choose the house that we could feel comfortable living in if I decide to take him back?

No contact until commitment is made.
I have not really reestablished contact. I am aware that he is working on getting me to do this. I'm not as dumb and naive as I was last time.

Chris was right for a change <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I was getting any old house to be free of him. I really did not love the house. I liked it alright. I really tried to make myself love it yesterday. I really was just settling. My visit yesterday was before the contact with WS today. I will choose the house that I love, if I can find it-not the one that he wants. In fact, he even wants the house to also be in his name. I have refused.

So you guys don't buy the stuff about him being afraid of the OW? Because what he really wants is for me to get a house in a gated community for my protection and safety) . No one can get in without the owner's permission. However, I don't like any of the houses there.

Remember I have not agreed to see him at all. I'm buying the house I like with my own home loan. I have not agreed to let him move in the house with me. I've continued to insist on the NC letter as a condition to discuss reconciliation although he has pressured me to agree to reconciliation.

Kily,
Why are you sure he's not really planning on ending the A?

[ July 21, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:


So you guys don't buy the stuff about him being afraid of the OW? Because what he really wants is for me to get a house in a gated community for my protection and safety) .

Kily,
Why are you sure he's not really planning on ending the A?<hr /></blockquote>Mimi, he has planned on ending it before. If he wanted to end it, he would end it.

And no, I don't buy the stuff about him being afraid of the OW. Sounds like an excuse to not formally end things. Maybe he is afraid to face her wrath, which he has to face when he ends the affair. Or maybe he is just pandering for some sympathy from you.

Melody,
I don't get it.

Hearing what you say makes me want to give up on the whole thing because I must not have any hold on reality.

He sounds as sincere as can be and is SAYING all the right things.

I get FRIGHTENED because I feel like my view of reality is distorted or maybe I'm not communicating things here clearly enough.

I checked with my mother and my sons and they all felt like I was settling on the house and I want me to look for another one. That's somehow comforting that I'm not completely loosing it.

Mimi, I don't think you should give up at all! Plan B is working! But it is FAR from over. He is talking. But thus far, that is all it is.

I am just suggesting that you don't go by his words, but by ACTIONS. *Only* ACTIONS. He has said all the right words before. Words that you wanted to hear desperately but words that he did not BACK UP with actions. He was very convincing before.

Maybe it is a good idea to get out of the house if you truly don't like it. But I would proceed as if you might not have him around just to cover yourself for eventualities. And then if and WHEN he really is ready to commit - via ACTIONS and not more empty words - then you can get a house together. But you can't count on that. You have to protect yourself above all things.

Plan B is coming along quite nicely, I just think it would be a huge mistake to make any premature moves.

I was getting confused yesterday, allowing him to infiltrate the system. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My goal is to recover today and not feel like such a failure. That makes me want to give up.

I will proceed as if he won't be there as you say Melody. I will work towards staying out of the triangle. I certainly don't want that nightmare again.

The goal will remain to find a house that I like.

I have to remember that all of this is a nightmare that he created. He needs to get out of his mess on his own and not get me involved in it. I know that in some sense that I had the upper hand and he tried to take it from me. I will not give up and will work to get my personal power back. At least, I definitely know now that he wants out of it to some extent. I don't think he has a good answer on how to get himself out of it. I certainly don't want to enable him by increasing his comfort level in his mess. Does this all make sense?

Thanks again for being there, you guys. Sometimes I feel like such a hopeless case. However, I will keep pushing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He sounds as sincere as can be and is SAYING all the right things. <hr /></blockquote>Didn't he SOUND sincere when he was seeing both you and the OW. Isn't that why you went into Plan B because his sincereness were nothing but lies?

About the expensive house in a GATED AND SECURITY COMMUNITY. Did you ever think that he wants to make sure that OW can't get in so she can't contact you and tell you that he is still seeing her after you took him back? Just a thought.

[ July 22, 2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]

Trying To:

You are right about the questionable sincerity of my WS.

However, I am easily accessible and well-known in the community. There's security on force at my job. She's tried to call me at work before so she can reach me at least by phone. Safety could be a real factor.

I'm so disappointed that my WS got mixed up with such a criminal element. She does reside in a community where there are known drug dealers. I understand she had to visit her last BF in jail. She's a sleaze and a loser, for real. He's in the pig pen getting muddy, smelly and dirty. I'm trying to stay out of it.

Chris was right for a change
Hey now!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gee, all this haggle of a house which can be resold, kept as rental investment, etc.
Actually, I'd have rented for a time to see how things go before buying a house. That way if your marriage works out, you could look for a new home together!
But that's my thinking and as Mortarman pointed out, it's not always on track. LOL
Reading his post and how his plan worked, i'd say he really knows how to work the plan.
The house is another issue altogether.
I'm very grateful we leased a home once where we were planning to buy because we found later that neither liked it there!
Why must you buy right away Mimi?
I fully understand the privilege of owning and no one can dictate rules. But it should only be for a short interim.
Give it some thought. But at the very least if you buy there, you can always make improvements and resell for a profit perhaps. Rentals are a pain in the A$$ to own!
There are options on how you move and where you live without buying so quickly.
LouLou

I don't buy excuse of being afraid. If that's true then he is saying he'll never be able to break free!
Simple, move his stuff out, tell her it's over and if any trouble she'll wind up where her BF is. Turn the worm back on her as to being afraid to do anything!
All you have to do is report any threats she makes and get a restraining order. Put the fear back to her!
Nough said? I would not let anyone control my life with threats. BTW, you can get a license to carry a weapon based on threats to your life!
LouLou

Mimi 1254 - first just let me say that my name is Mimi and my birthday is 12/64 so I always read your threads but I don't think that I have ever responded - but ok - I think that you should stick with your original plan - if you want to buy a house by yourself buy a house - but don't buy one just to get away - buy one that you really love and want to make your own - especially by yourself not with him but by yourself - then if and when he is serious about ending his affair and getting back together - you two could either sell or move in together - don't let him give you more money for a down payment - he is just trying to ease his conscience - Don't fall for the lines he throws out - try and stay strong and wait for his actions to speak louder - (way louder) than his words... You are doing this for yourself now - you are at this moment by yourself - he has no say in what you decide you stay strong.... And if he is sincere it won't matter whether you live in an apartment or a house "that isn't up to his standards" if he wants to be with you - then you two will be there or whereever together... Mimi

I feel good. Although I goofed yesterday, I'm back in PLAN B.

Something is probably going to happen soon. WS has been BEGGING to see me. Even almost tricked me, asking "Are you getting ready to go to the gym?". It's almost laughable. He even asked if I would consider coming to live with him in his CONDO. You know, the condo where he has been playing house with the OW. He's getting pretty desperate. OK, that was our LAST conversation. Also, wanted to put MY new house in both of our names. I have refused and have gone dark again. Don't laugh, I know I have a high likelihood of coming out into the light.

Will keep you posted.

Hi Mimi,

Sounds like you are nearly there. WH is starting to get really antsy, about the house and about your independence! Gotta love it!

Stay strong. My concern is: why do you keep talking to him if you're still in Plan B?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi,
I've been following, just not much to add to the good advice you are getting.
Glad you're back to Plan B and knowing what you have to do!
You have lots to hope for, just don't give up too much too soon.
Nothing new on my end, and certainly nothing much to show me signs of hope. Just trying to keep focused on daily living and keeping head above water financially. Kids are showing signs of stress and I'm going to inquire about counseling this week. Man, I hate this!
I'll be following your progress even if I'm not replying!

IS GIRL:

I've been talking to him because I have goofed the past two days. He won in his pursuit of me. I have to get back on track.

I'm a poor PLAN B student but I think things are working out alright.

I know things are awful in his fantasy world. That gives me satisfaction right now as I get busy in the process of moving.

LEARNIN:

I will keep check on you.

Mimi,

Sorry to miss out on so much, but I was flying home from my training. Thank God I am home again. But that is another thread.

First off, a quick note. Look at your last post. IT SAYS IT ALL! All in one simple sentence. That sentence tells you where you are, and where you should be. What was that sentence?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He even asked if I would consider coming to live with him in his CONDO. <hr /></blockquote>Read this over and over. Look at it from all angles. The first impression is...ISNT THIS THE PLACE HE CANT LIVE BECAUSE HE FEELS THREATENED BY THE ow. If that were true, then it isnt a very loving act to bring you into a war zone!

Come on. You know the answer. You have known the answer all along. You know Mr. Mimi better than ANYONE! And this is where I am going to enter the fray about Plan B.

You are right about Steve Harley. He is very much into the Harley plan. But he also believes that it has to be massaged...that it isnt all cookie cutter.

In my case, the first problem in Plan B with keeping NC with my wife was the kids. They were living with me, and some contact was required. In order to stay in Plan B, but also be the father to my kids, I had to find a way to stay in NC when NC wasnt possible. Confused? Well, let me explain. Everytime she came by, or called in order to see the kids, "I stayed on message." You will hear me say this over and over throughtout this. Stay on message! She would want to talk about something upcoming with the kids, for example, and then would try to steer the conversation to us or even idle chit-chat. I cut that off IMMEDIATELY! I began to sound like a broken record. I repeated over and over again in these situations, the terms of Plan B and of her recovering any kind of relationship with me. And then I hung up, or I walked out of the room. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS...I ended the discussion and would not let it resume. Even if she wanted to approach this the right way after that, I had decided that when she decided to cross MY BOUNDARIES, there would be a penalty to pay. And that penalty was an immediate cessation of any negotiations and immediately moving back within my front lines (I am going to use military jargon here, because it fits...you are in a war right now Mimi!). Whether you like him or not, tell me what happened with Ronald Reagan at Rekavik with Gorbachev? Well, Gorby comes in wanting to negotiate a reduction in nukes on his own terms. Reagan looks at him, tells him that his plan of trust but verify is the only workable plan...and then Reagan walks out of the meeting. Case closed. No more discussion. The terms of the US were spelled out cleanly. Gorby could go for them, or walk away...but there was now no in between. Same went for my marriage, and where yours is now.

And just like in the example above of Reagan...this is scary stuff. You are in uncharted territory with your husband. You know him, but you still dont know how he is going to react to all of this. There are signs on what is going on. You know all the statistics. You know the success rate of the Harleys. You even know a lot of marriages like the Mortarmans. But there is still the unknown. Where "nukes" can be launched, and life as you know it ends.

But just as in Reagans case, I think you are going to find that negotiating from a position of strength is the ONLY way that your husband is going to come back. My wife said early on in our recovery that one of the first glimpses out of the fog was when I began to stand up to her. I asked her when that was. Know when? When I started Plan B!! She began to have respect for me again. She began to be able to hold up the life she was living and start to seethat it did not even compare with the life she had, or could have, with me. But it wasnt an easy process.

In the analogy with Reagan...after Reagan walked out, Gorby did send couriers over, asking to negotiate, coming up with alternative plans. At one point, he even came up with a plan that was 99% what Reagan had asked for. So, why did Reagan not go for it? Because the same reason that YOU MUST NOT BACK DOWN! It is a ploy. Your husband is sincere, so was Gorby. But, they are sincerely wrong. You have spelled out the way back in clear terms. And you walked out of the negotiating room.

The next sound you want to hear is the "courier" stating that he has met your demands. Then and only then will you walk back into that room and begin negotiating on HOW this will all be played out.

Now, I will pul away from my good friend Chris here for a minute. I know where his heart is, and you need to heed what he is saying. YOU CANNOT BACK DOWN. But, I have found in diplomatic, or military negotiations, there must always be a channel for the "enemy" to send info and discuss options. You dont have to reply, just as Reagan didnt reply to Gorbys couriers, except to say that Reagan had spelled out the plan...take it or leave it.

You must massage Plan B...but all the time having your head right where Chris is talking about...you are in Plan B. I did not at the time think that my three or four "talks" with my wife during Plan B, was necessarily a bad thing. Sure, I had broken NC. But, let me show you in a military sense, what you are in for.

You are sitting across an open field from the enemy. You hve battled this enemy for awhile. The enemy has been sneaky, and at times, waved the surrender flag, only to shoot at you when you get out of your foxhole and try to meet him halfway across that field.

You have now dropped leaflets (Plan B Letter) on the other side, spelling out how any terms or surrender will be accepted. And the fact that only the complete surrender will be accepted. And then you sit in your hole and wait.

The enemy waves the white flag. What do you do? if you stick to a pure Plan B, then you just sit there because you have no communication, and have no idea if he is meeting your terms of surrender (laying down arms, etc). So, the enemy gets NO response to his flag, gets scared, and crawls back into his hole. He has no idea what to do next.

Now, here is how we handle this (and how I handled my wife). The white flag goes up. I immediately call out my translator (who speaks fogese!) and I begin to broadcast the PBL over and over again. This is a one way communication. It lays out what he must do (lay down his arms, come out with hands up, proceed to the middle of the field, lay down in the prone position, etc). I do not get in a discussion with him. The PBL has already spelled everythign out. He has been promised fair treatment, as long as he adheres to the provisions of the PBL.

Mimi, make no mistake...what you are asking for is the surrender of your husband. Plain and simple. You have the power now. As is evidenced by his actions lately, HE KNOWS HE HAS LOST THE WAR! But even with that knowledge, he is still unsure of your treatment of him, how he will be treated as a POW. Little does he know that you wont treat him as a POW, but instead as the Prodigal son, as he came home.

But for now, he only speaks Fogese. He is scared. His whole world, his reality, his "truth," has now been turned upside down AGAIN. Nothing makes sense to him. Does it make any sense to leave someone out there, alone and afraid, with no comfortable way out.

Now, some will say "Well, he has the letter." Look, that letter is probably in his pocket, or thrown on the ground. In his mind, he remembers what he read. But he still doesnt believe it. But he knows he has no other way. So he reaches out to you, to find a comfortable way for him to come out. He will broadcast back to your lines certain demands of his own, ones that will make him less scared. But remember, he is the one that lost. He is surrendering, not you!. All that should be broadcast back to him is the same boring, tired, worn out message "NC with OW, NC letter, counseling, blah, blah, blah." After awhile, as he looks around at his hopeless position, as he continually hears everytime he contacts you the same message, he realizes "What choice do I have? If I stay, I die. If I go, I MIGHT die." He must decide whether or not he can trust you. Plan A put that trust in his mind and heart. And so, he lays down his arms, puts his hands in the air, and walks home.

I am tearing up as I write this. This is not natural! For the past months, this same person was destroying you, bombarding you with pain, taking your life away. And now, he has the audacity to want to negotiate. And after he realizes that he can no longer fight this, now you have to open your arms and bring him home. The parrallel between this and the end of the Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression as we call it here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). How do you one day fight to the death, and the next day become brothers and friends? Believe me, postwar reconstruction IS the hardest part! I am living it.

To sum this up, I have to slightly disagree with Chris, only in this one instance. He is right...YOU MUST STICK WITH PLAN B! You must not back down. there is now only one safe way back for you, and even for him. You see, unless he comes back on your terms, you will always question whether he is back for good. And you will take out your hurt on him. When he surrenders, he is going to try to trust you not to destroy him. It is then that you show the grace of God and dont give him what he deserves!

But the disagreement I have is that while maintaining NC with the "enemy" is what you are doing, there still must be diplomatic channels. At first the enmy will try to abuse those channels, just as my wife tried on her visits. It is then that you reiterate your demands, and show the courier the door. After awhile, the enemy will see that these channels are only one way...surrender or "die." Of course, for all the hall monitors here, I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE...I am just using an analogy to get my point across.

Without that open channel, he cant test the waters to see if you mean it. He cant get thru the process that he needs to go thru in order to be ready to give up. He is afraid, panicked and under seige right now. He needs to hear that message over and over again.

So, my advice? Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. And if he calls, or tries to make contact, send him the message..."Your safety is assured if you lay down your arms, proceed forward with your hands on your head, and lay down in the middle of the field." Play it over and over again.

Mimi, you are doing great. I only write this long because you are the closest on this website to making it! You really are.Tha tscared man is in his foxhole, cowering in fear. not from some lame OW. He fears you! He fears what he would do to himself if he were in your shoes. Stand firm. and then when he walks thru the front door with his hands up, and the OW gone, then you can show him just what a woman he has!

I am praying. Stay on your knees Mimi. God will get the message to him.

In His arms.

Mimi,

My feeling is don't rush into a house you don't like.

I do believe recovery will be easier in a place where both you and WS will feel comfortable together.

My question is:

What is his plan for breaking off the affair? What exactly is his plan? Isn't he currently living in the condo with OW? Or is she living somewhere else?

If he is breaking off the affair, how exactly is he planning on doing it? What exactly is he waiting for? is this a, I'll do it in a month, or I'll do it in two months, or what? Hmm... what is he waiting for if OW is indeed this terrible, vindictive, low class, dangerous person?

Maybe he should give Steve a call for advice.

the gated community may not be such a bad idea if he is fearful of being stalked or harassed by this woman. Steve describes how, in order to recover, people even move away far from OP, even though it may involve considerable inconvenience. So the gated community could possibly be helpful in marital recovery. But, if it is not your first choice of where to live, I would not consider it until WS has committed to moving there with you. And there is alot of other things that need to happen first.

I guess you do need to stay in your plan B. I understand how weak you feel because I was that way too.

[ July 22, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

Mimi,

Did you have your session with Steve Harley yet? I'm interested in his opinion with that issue we both have. Thanks.

now what

you are in Plan B. I did not at the time think that my three or four "talks" with my wife during Plan B, was necessarily a bad thing. Sure, I had broken NC.
If it was 3 or 4 "talks", I would not (necessarily) see a problem.

But from what I have read, Mimi is in almost daily contact in some way.
Yes, the house is a big deal and there probably needs to be some communicaton to deal with it.

Remember, Plan B is to ALSO to help you "just get over it." Continued contact will not help you to detach and pull the emotions out of it.

Mimi

I think Chris has made a very important point.

Continued contact will not help you to detach and pull the emotions out of it.

Unless your communication is about something that directly enables your plan B or reconciliation, or of course something that is an emergency or v.important regarding the kids, then it is probably counter-productive and should be avoided. I think MM's approach is the right one when there are kids involved. Some contact is inevitable, so it is how YOU manage and control that contact that is important.

S.

Chris and Salerio,

I think we are closer than we think. In my last post, I was focusing on the effects of Plan B on the WS. Of course, Plan B is also for the BS.

While the affair is in full swing, Plan B is meant to pull back, to remove all ENs being met by the BS. it is also meant to protect the BS, and whatever remaining love they have for the WS. Now we all know this.

It is true that Mimi, while doing a good Plan B, fascilates when confronted by her husband. And we all agree that this is the wrong approach in Plan B. But there comes a time when Plan B will end.

The first way will be if the BS has run out of love. Then it is off to Plan D, and a new life. Plan B prepared them for that. For the WS that just will not come back, then this is the way out.

The other way out of Plan B is reconciliation. But the question is, how do you proceed to Plan R? Of course, there must be a meeting of the terms of surrender (PBL). But during that process, there are moments of tension. Moments where the WS tries to negotiate these terms. Moments where the BS doesnt quite believe this is all true. Both parties are taking huge risks at this point.

Up until now, Plan B had been protecting the BS. But in order to move to Plan R, there is a period of time where transition happens. It is here where we take the chance on getting burned. It is here where we take the chance, just like the Marines in Iraq, when the enemy is giving up, and then fakes it and shoots back.

There is going to come a time that Mimi will have to take a chance. Not yet, but shortly. It will be dangerous, and she will be opening herself to being destroyed again. This is why I believe, even without kids, that there must be diplomatic channels. Where info FROM the WS can move to the BS. And where the PBL, terms of surrender if you will, can be transmitted back continually.

Both of you...I believe that Mimi hasnt doen such a great job in this period. That is why she has gotten burned before. You are right. She must shut down and completely pull back until the terms are met.

But she also must allow that info to flow from him. It is the only way he will work through this final period. If she can stay seperated fro mthe issue, just keep braodcasting the terms of surrender, then she will be protecting herself as much as she can during this transition period. Sure there are some risks. But at the point that the relationship appears to be over with the OW, and appears that the WH is trying to make his way back, communication must open again, but only within the limited extent of repeating the conditions of reconciliation.

Can Mimi do this? I dont know. You are right that she has fallen down several times. But if Mimi wants this all to end, it will happen now. It appears that she has everything right where she wants it. If she does this right, I believe we are talking days, even a few weeks, before her husband surrenders.

But Mimi, if you continue to break your own NC, and talk to him about non-PBL issues...if you continue to engage him in possibilities outside of what you have laid out in the PBL, then you will extend this pain further for BOTH of you. And you may miss your opportunity completely.

Stay in NC. Stay in Plan B until the conditions are met. But, when it appears he wants to talk surrender, then listen to him. It may be the time that he is actually ready to give up. If it isnt, do as I did...reiterate the surrender terms, and then hang up the phone or walk out.

Sure, this will hurt. This transition period will hurt because it causes you to come out of your comfort zone. But you will have to do so.

So, stay dark. No contact until he is ready to meet your terms. If he approaches you on those terms, listen to him. And if he isnt ready to meet them, then respectfully point him towards the PBL. And then wait until his next breakthrough.

With my wife, this process of her negotiating, and then me sending her on her way, only for her to come back with another proposal, was over about 4 weeks. She would ask for such things as if I could just be her friend while she worked thru ending things. You see, she was trying to find the easy way out. Of course, I just told her that I couldnt do that. That there was only one way back. She cussed at me, said I would never accept her back, that I could never be her true friend, that I was blowing the chance for us to get back together. But I stayed on message and walked out.

Now, did that hurt? Sure. Did I have doubts about my plan? Sure. There were times that I wanted to just accept her terms, to be her friend while she worked thru it. I didnt want to lose her.

But some wise sages on this site kept me straight and let me understand that if I accepted anything less than PBL, then I could lose her forever. This is what Chris and Salerio are trying to say to you. Do this right, and it appears that you will have your marriage back shortly. Mess this up, and you could be in for a lot more pain.

Alway keep in your mind that you are in Plan B. When you hear from him, or about him, the only thing you are looking for is him agreeing to the terms of surrender. if it doesnt sound or look like that, then immediately reject it and pull back.

I thin kyou are in the transition period. I think he has made up his mind about the OW. And even about you. But he doesnt know how to do this. You will have to lead him the rest of the way home. You know how that is done. Do not waver. Everyone wants to think that their case is the special one, the one where the plan wont work. Mimi...your husband will react to this the same way my wife did, and many others did. Trust that.

In His arms.

What do I do now? Mortarman's analysis of this situation is right on target.

I am at a point of WS' trying to surrender. I want to make the right strategic moves. He is negotiating with me. I have followed the MM rules-not strict MB rules. I have maintained NC to the extent that he has not seen me. We have had phone conversations. He has been BEGGING for RECONCILIATION . He wants to demonstrate his seriousness by COMMITTING to buying a house with me. He has arranged a deal with the people from whom he bought the condo whereby they will buy the condo back and WE will buy a house that the builder has had on the market for a long time. It's a huge, beautiful house, really a dream home! My son and I went to see it. It would be hard for anybody to pass up. I have to be honest. I might be selling my soul, though. He says, PLEASE JUST LISTEN and consider it overnight. I reassert the conditions of the PBL. NC letter with other woman, counseling,etc. WS states that he knows that this will not be an overnight process, he could understand me saying no, he loves me and does not want to lose me, he knows what big a mistake he has made, he has had a midlife crisis, "can't stand" the OW, does not want to be around her, the lengthy contact with her showed him how she really is, etc. etc. This is all spilled out by him in a speech.

BTW, my realtor confessed to me today that she has been showing him big, expensive houses.

I just listen and verbally ask for the NC letter before I will commit to anything.

The house issue is a big one for him. Remember how he came home and touched everything in the house. Note how he left his stuff here to keep a part of himself in the house. Losing the house, me selling it , was synonymous to him of losing me. He stated a realization of how much he was losing. To be with me, is for me to be living in a house that he is a part of.

You see, one of my major gifts is making a house into a home. I can see how that has been a major loss for him. OW is probably failing on those aspects. He calls the condo "an albatross around my neck", just "empty walls". The weekends with her have been "like hell".

I do ask about withdrawal which he had difficulty getting through the last time. He has been reading SAA. WS said that then he had not definitely decided that he needed to give her up. Also, he had not had the lengthy contact with her that he has had now. He basically has missed the MIMI that was in PLAN A. What if I don't fulfill the fantasy he has created of me? OK, it really was not a fantasy. I really have changed. I ask him what if this does not work, this is a huge commitment for us to make. He says he will make a major commitment to make it work. He feels desperate to be with me again, live a normal life again, to have his family back, to be away from the bad life in which he is living. He puts a major emphasis on OW's "immorality and lack of values", the main thing he has learned new about her. What else could he have thought about a person like her?

Today I hear nothing about being scared of her. I guess he gave up that tactic because I did not buy it.

I probably have left some parts out. This is the gist of it.

YIKES!!!!!

[ July 23, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

When did he end contact with her? When will he produce the NC letter and send it? [with a CC: to you]

No other negotiations until/unless PBL conditions are met. No house. Nothing. NOTHING!!!

(jumping up and down, screaming): NOTHING!!!!!!

Yeah, things are different this time, but he has destroyed your trust in him. He needs to
EARN it back - and that will take months, if not years. He needs to earn that trust back as much for him as for you.

Do not trust the grand gesture. It is the little things that count. You are right to worry about whether you will live up to his fantasy of you, because recovery will be HARDER than Plan A or Plan B, and you WILL stumble. Everyone does. Grand gestures will not get you through those times. It is committing to and disciplining yourself(ves) to do the little things, even through the failures.

[ July 23, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]

I am sorry. I would be a fool to not live in that house whether we reconcile or not. My WS has always done grand gestures along with the small. That has been his way with me for 30 years. That's him being himself again. That's what's so alluring.

I won't live in it with him right now.

That's the way I'm feeling.

I would not consider it without the NC letter, though.

[ July 23, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

question= Do you want a strong solid improved marriage or an expensive house? From your latest postings I really can't tell. Your priorities sound as distorted as your WS. That is what I am getting from your posts. Your grasping at straws with your WS. Talk is cheap, and he hasn't done a thing to start the healing of your marriage. Buying an expensive house is just a BAND-AID to cover up a huge sore. When he sends NC letter, goes to counseling and truly shows that he wants a recovery of your marriage that is when you should buy a house together. Not a minute before! JMO

[ July 23, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]

Trying-to:

I was insulted by your post. I didn't need that. You haven't been reading my posts if you are not aware that I know I have a huge sore in my marriage and do not see the need to work on it. I have an appt. with Steve Harley tomorrow and have spent lots of money in counseling with him.

Maybe you are being judgmental. This has been my lifestyle. This is who I am and it has been a part of our life together. I think folks here are having a hard time with that so maybe I can't be understood by some of you. I really needed help in dealing with my life.

I just don't like how you posted. I am "grasping at straws". I haven't made any decisions. I was asking for your help not your wrath. I don't need that.

[ July 23, 2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

If that is who you are then ok. People have different dreams and priorities and I do understand that. I gave you MY OPINION and I won't apologize for me being ME. But I do apologize if my comment caused you pain. I have read your posts from the beginning including replies that you give to others. You tell others to cont. Plan B, stay the course but you don't consider the same brand of honesty for yourself. I worded the grasping at straws incorrectly. What I meant to say is that your husband is throwing you crumbs right now, because he knows what would get you back into his web. As I said before, my opinions are made from what I am interpreting from your latest posts.

[ July 23, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]

Trying To:

I don't understand why you say my WS is throwing me crumbs. Investing in a house is not crumbs. What about the stuff I know he is just saying about what he has learned about his A?

To be honest, I don't think I'm strong enough to withstand this. I want to give him a try. I think he really wants to try. Plans to deliver the NC letter tomorrow.

I told you that I have not given in to him yet. I just don't need to be made to feel bad here when I'm really trying to figure things out and to get help. I don't think we will proceed though if I don't consider the importance of the home to him at all. He can conceivably buy this house with me and not live in it yet until....

You know what. Maybe you are right. I hated the independent life of PLAN B, buying a house by myself, etc. WS knows how I want him to take care of me. That's what he stopped doing when he started his A.

To be honest, I know this sounds crazy but, this feels better than all of those weeks of PLAN B. What feels better is his: begging me to take him back, the sense that he really wants to be with me. If he really wants to be with me, he would be with me anywhere you would say. It's never been that way in our relationship. I have been trying to explain that we are not like that. We are neatniks. The particular comforts of home have always been important to us. We designed and custom-built the house that is being sold. When my WS started his A, he stopped attending to our house and it became rundown. This is a real bonding, connecting point with us. That's why I am paying attention to this.

Mimi ....

"Real" bonding is when you both become vulnerable to each other on an intimate basis once more .... and you let down your guard.

"Real" bonding is not found in a lovely house with fine furnishings .... that is a diversion both of you may be used to taking together, and perhaps that's where the real intimacy got lost in the first place????

Did you spend too much time fixing up the house and losing your intimacy along the way???

Sounds like "backing up" to me. Read my sig line....

Mimi,

You know you're in good hands with Steve Harley - his advice is what you're paying the big bucks for!

Don't take posters comments too seriously. Our views come from our perspectives and are a reflection of us not you!

Counseling with SH was the best money I ever spent! SH will counsel your husband on what he needs to do to earn you back. The recovery plan he coaches WSs on is invaluable.

You'll make the right decision when the time is right. No one else can possibly tell you what is best for YOU!

Blessings to you! CSue

I agree with CSue

We're all just a bunch of Muggles here anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi I understand the feeling of victory when the WS is begging, pleading, saying all the right things. I did the same thing. Got married because of it (after finding out about OW). But the marriage was like I stated before, a BAND-AID to cover up an infected sore. We didn't do anything to heal it, make it better, we covered it up with a marriage. And after the marriage ceremony, the band-aid was off and we still had a BIG SORE that had never healed! We didn't have the proper tools. I was like PsychoB, angry, bitter and LB whenever I felt like it. I didn't have MB to guide me. I fought tooth and nail and stood my ground. But then I FINALLY DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Took down my walls (I'm sure that suprises some since I am known here as the MEAN B&TCH) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I did something different and it worked. I liked myself again, I become fun again.
Back to you, I didn't mean to put you down, but you know you have been here long enough to know that when PLAN B is implemented the WS promises the world at first. Tries to negotiate time, space everything in the beginning and when we say OK too fast, then you are just getting right back on that ROLLER COASTER that you were on before Plan B. Stay focused.

I'm not going to do anything tomorrow or the next day. I'll stay in an apartment if I have to. I really believe him though. He will have to back up his words with actions.

Trying to:

You're right about a lot of things that you are saying. I will keep your thoughts in mind.

I may have to go with my gut. I didn't ever feel good when I was enabling him before. This seems real. However, as you say, actions speak louder than words.

Mimi,

I have a different take on things than other posters. I think the house issue is important because it is one of the EN's you have met for your H. It is not a superficial focus on lavish trappings IMHO.

All these years, you have created a comfy nest for your H. It is obviously one of his EN's. I can relate to this because my H is the same way. His surroundings are very important to him. If he was forced to live in an ugly place, it would make him sick. One of the things that probably held him back from leaving was not wanting to leave our house, which we had just renovated to our precise taste, to live in a less than ideal rental property. Yes, it may seem superficial. And it was not the only reason he didn't leave- our kids were a factor too.

All these years you met your H's need of creating a home for him. When he left, to pursue his A, he lost that, but he figured it was there waiting for him- the moment he decided to return. When you sold your house you shook your H's world. Suddenly his home is gone. The nice, comfy, cozy place that is his center is gone. For your H, moving to a not so nice house that you have bought on your own (not with him) is not the same.

There is a joy when two lovers create a home together. My H and I have it. When we are in our kitchen we really enjoy it together. We designed it and it is a total reflection of OUR tastes. I can tell you how my H picked the floor tiles, but I designed the backsplash. He chose the cabinetry but I thought of the little cubbies on either side of the stove. All these little details are part of "US" our story. And it matters.

I think your WH is panicked over losing his home,
but the question is, has he given up OW? It is true that he shouldn't be looking for houses or even discussing this with you until that relationship is over.

Is OW living at the condo?
Is OW spending weekends with him?

I think you have to tell him you can't discuss buying a house together until the relationship with OW is over. But I do think you can listen to him strategize as to how he is going to do it. ANd I think MM is right about staying on message.

"The idea of this big, beautiful house is wonderful, honey, but we can't really discuss it while you are living with another woman. Let's talk about it after you've broken it off with her".

I am so glad you'll be talking to Steve tomorrow.

[ July 23, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

Mimi,

Espoir has it exactly right. It isnt wrong to want these things. They are ENs that you and your WH fill for each other.

But you are in Plan B! The only reason he is even talking to you about this is that you have been in Plan B! In Plan B, NO EMOTIONAL NEEDS should be met by the BS for the WS. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH.

Espoir said it well...tell him you would love to talk to him about the new house, right after the NC letter has left and he has committed to reconciliation (and whatever other things you put in the PBL, like counseling). This bonding is all well and good, except he is still with OW, still in the condo, still eating his big fat piece of cake.

He tells you the truth about his relationship with her, the fact that it isnt what he wants. Great! But all that is is the WH looking out of the fog and seeing reality for the first time. Still doesnt mean a darn thing, if he wont get up and walk out of the fog.

Now, how did he get the ability to see out of the fog? PLAN B! He is almost ready to walk out of it, and now you want to surrender to him. To meet some of his needs. Why? I know why. I have been in your shoes. I tried on several occasions last fall, durinf false reconciliations, to do the go slow approach and be the friend and meet needs. Guess what that got me. NOTHING! She still stayed with him.

Okay, this house situation is a big issue. And you know you want it. But you do not want that bog house, without fixing the occupants first. What's the rush? As soon as the NC letter is sent, then the two of you can start planning the future and getting the house situation settled. It will go a long ways in the recovery effort to have something like that that you both can build together.

BUT THAT IS ONLY IN THE RECOVERY PERIOD...WE ARE STILL IN THE ADULTERY PERIOD! His adultery has not ended. His betrayal has not ended. He has not met ONE of your conditions, and you are ready to give into him.

Mimi, I have been where you are at. It is scary. you want to believe him. He sounds so sincere. And he is. But understand, that sincerity will not keep him from backsliding. Walls must be erected to keep him moving in the right direction. That first wall is NC with the OW.

Please Mimi, do not meet another need of his, even on the phone (conversation) until he has sent the NC and conceded that he will do what you have asked in the PBL. The temptation now is to shortcut this, to get to the end fast. But your husband isnt there yet. He is close...very close. Days, maybe weeks away. He will get there. But only if you do what got you here.

YOU ARE NOT IN RECONCILIATION, YOU ARE NOT IN RECOVERY! That door must be opened by him. But the only way he should get a key to that door is when he sends the NC letter and meets your conditions.

Please, please Mimi. You will be banging yourself in the head when this falls apart and you wish you hadnt of given in.

I am sincerely interested in what Steve tells you tomorrow. Since I was in the same boat as you, I have given you the advice he gave me.

Come back on tomorrow and let us know. But I'll bet that short of NC with OW, Steve is going to tell you that you are jumping the gun.

Your husband does not deserve to have his ENs met. Get that in your head. Not until he is committed to you. And until OW is gone, he cant commit to you. So, you cant meet his ENs. Commitment = ENs met. Learn it, love it, live it.

In His arms.

Thank you, MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Espoir and Mortarman REALLY UNDERSTAND ME better than anyone here.

Espoir has exactly captured the way it is and has been for me and my WS.

I think Espoir really is me.

Espoir, I'm going to use your quote exactly.

That's what I needed. Someone who really understood. I know everyone else was trying. Stick with me. This is so hard for me.

BTW, she doesn't live there. She has her own house with her own child who he has not wanted to contend with- which has been a LBing issue for them. I'm pretty sure she has spent most of the weekends there but not last weekend for some reason.

Thanks.

[ July 24, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Dear Mimi,

I was glad my post was something you could relate to. My situation was a little different than what you are going through now- because I never had to go through Plan B. I almost did- I discovered continued contact in the form of phone calls- and I told my H, pack your bags and stay in a motel- or commit to NC. He grudgingly committed to NC at that moment- but I think that recovery may have gone faster if he had ever suffered through the shock of losing me.

However, in reality, I got off pretty lightly compared to many on this board- I discovered the affair 3.5 months into it- H continued it via long distance (as he flirted with the concept of moving out) for another 6 weeks before he flew out to see her and break it off. Then there were a few dribs and drabs of continued contact for another six weeks. To tell the truth, it was before I had learned about MB and I let lose with some major anger attacks during that time which probably fed his urge to call her. In retrospect, part of me wishes I had let loose with a Plan B, since I had to suffer through months of half hearted recovery efforts on his part. On the other hand, I am glad my children never had to suffer through us getting separated- and also separation can be dangerous. I should add that I believe we are now firmly in recovery- NC now for 2 years, and my WH will say the A was the stupidest, more selfish and immature thing he ever did...

The thing is, you've already been through a false recovery. Your WS has to be for real this time, or he could irrevocably damage your M.

I found that during the affair period, I did end up having alot of discussion with my H that were helpful in the long run. Firstly, I did "educate" him. I would read books and share information with him- how affairs develop, the affair "bubble", statistics on affairs, and the effects of divorce on children. I just did this calmly in an informative manner. I also did discuss some stuff about the OP with him, always being careful not to insult her. But stuff would come out during these discussions that was food for thought and that would pierce that bubble. Often I would just raise issues of practicality or logistics- which was often stuff we needed to figure out anyway.

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

However, I think that in terms of your WH contacting you, it may be OK as long as you are confining the discussion to affair recovery. Don't chat about his work, your children, anything social. Your main question should be what is your strategy for ending the affair? And you can give him information, or let him discuss his concerns with you.

It sounds like you have already done this in giving him SAA. I think you can also educate him about withdrawal. About how the affair creates a high, like a drug, and withdrawal can feel like a letdown. That there are ways to cope with it, and how antidepressants can be helpful. You can say recovery is hard and will require alot of commitment on his part- is he ready for that? You don't want everyone to be more hurt, you, him and OW by fooling around with a half hearted effort.

You have to absolutely act like you are prepared to move on with your life- and you are prepared to be happy without him. That if OW is who he wants, he should move on and enjoy his life with her. Don't let him see any chinks in your armor. That is where Plan B helps.

I hope you have a good conversation with Steve today- and that his advice is helpful.

Good luck!

I would also be non committal about house plans when chatting with him. Continue to look for houses on your own. When is your closing on your current house? Are you committed to sell? Obviously you will need a place to live shortly.

In terms for his desire for a nice house- what is good- WS and you buy a comfortable house in which to recover in together- one that you have POJA'd on.

What is bad- WS buys you a nice house that he figures he would like to live in, then continues to fence sit, figuring he has bought you off. But this can only happen if the house is in both your names (so you can strategize to prevent this).

However, frankly, Mimi- I agree with your pragmatism in not wanting to turn down a nice house. After all, if WS never comes back, you'll feel better in a nice house than the rundown house with the broken shower door. Perhaps the solution is that the house is in your name. It's tricky- this involves negotiation. But remember, part of POJA involves brainstorming and problem solving.

Just some thoughts.

PS. I think Mortarman is right on the money with his thoughts. And he is a Plan B veteran- which I am not. Absolutely, any house discussions always come with the proviso that the affair must end, and actions speak louder than words.

[ July 24, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

WOW WOW WOW WOW !!!
ESPOIR!!

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

that is an amazing approach..it emcompasses the whole package on such different level..

the debunking of the WS's pull to wallow in overwhelming guilt and shame...to the point of sabotaging recovery...

the abilility to show forgiveness and moving aways from what was....

the ability to put in to actions not just the words the meaning of honesty etc...

the ability to show support and hope that people can change....

It's like a huge piece of the puzzle right there in your own words...!!!!

very cool...very very very good advice...

I've been thinking about mimi's position...and whole route of plan B and how and when you do offer the olive branch..that there does have to be that route...mortarmans post was really good in addressing that...(the one on page 33 I believe...really should this post be layed to rest...)
in how to open the channels while protecting..
and now Espoirs advice on concrete ways to do it...

mimi don't think people don't understand you...they just don't want to see you hurt...
I think "we" distrust your husband more than you...cause he is sooo one sided based on the limitations of the "forum"....

We need to have faith that you do know him best...and can take of your self....

just no one wants you hurt...
but you know that....

ARK

Sorry. This is just a tease for things to come. I will be posting later on this evening when I have lots more time.

I just want to let you know that I love all of you guys. Thanks for being there for me.

You keep me from blowing it. You keep me on course.

I swear, I am gonna smack her! Get back here and fill us in on the session, Mimi!

I'm on tenterhooks Mimi! I hope the session was helpful to you!

Let's all line up and take turns at her! It's four hours! Where is she?

This is worse than finding out at the end of your TV movie...

"To Be Continued Next Week"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SHE'S STILL NOT HERE??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I have no more nail to bite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> , professional lurker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> -rh-

Ok,whats up? Were are you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

oh Mimi you big tease!

Seriously, hope it is good news that is keeping you from posting.

S.

Hey Mim!
I'm still here! Watchin and Learnin! and of course WAITIN!
What is taking so long! I hope it's good news.
I'll be starting a thread soon. Got some catchin up to do, and it's not good stuff. But oh well..

Hurry up!!

I'm sorry that I had to go this extreme to get attention! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have been super busy and seems like he told me SOOOOO MUCH that I want to share.
I will not try to be coherent. I will type from my notes.

Steve H. had one session with my WS in January and seems to have learned a lot about him in that session that he is referring back to. As a preliminary statement, he sees my WS as being highly addicted to the OW. He seems to have known since D-Day that he wanted to get out of it. Steve told him how but he has not been able to do it. Steve says that my WS is a "proud" man who likes to do things his way. Also, I never told you guys this, he is a "salesman" by profession and uses those tactics on me well.

What's going on right now with him according to Steve? He is unhappy. "SET-UP" he has with the OW "is not working"(the brilliant Steve H. uses my WS' exact words). He is not getting a high from the A anymore. He sinks into a low and interaction with the OW just brings him to normal. Steve keeps making the analogy like the alcoholic. He is just drinking to keep the buzz going. This means that he is not afraid of her. He continues to "enjoy" her company so is still not able to give her up. Steve predicts, though, that she is beginning to be demanding. Steve laughed and said, "What did he expect?" The fog clouds the mind. How could he have conceived that she would agree to stay in hiding? Steve laughed about her. How can she expect to be a Mrs. WS in this community given that she is clearly the OW and WS is such a "proud" man. Steve said, "I tried to tell him but he didn't listen."

Steve says that WS has the typical male point of view. WS sees SHARED OWNERSHIP of a house with me as creating a CONNECTION. He believes a house makes US . When I sold the house he said to himself, according to Steve, "Oh, Oh, Mimi is getting too far from me I've got to reel her back in". Reel me back in, he did. He was looking for a tactic to stay on the fence. "He's between a rock and a hard place", Steve says.

He still "doesn't get it" according to Steve. He wants to postpone things, let her down slowly, maybe wait until she breaks up with him. The only way to end it is to end it. He has to do it abruptly and emphatically. So my response needs to be over and over again, keeping it simple: "Get rid of the OW. Only then will I go househunting with you." This is communicating my perspective which is different than his. My perspective is that the most important thing to me is our marriage, not a house. Working on the marriage needs to be as simple as possible and the marriage should be given "sufficient attention", "timing is not right", etc.

So what does Steve recommend that I do: "Put yourself in a holding pattern, not doing anything for several months." Interactions with him should be minimal, stressing "What is your plan to get rid of the OW?" and then cut it off. About a house, say I'm not sure what I'm going to do about a house for several months. So in, other words, Steve recommends that I lease a house or an apartment which is what I have been working on. I have not been successful in finding anything to my satisfaction but will keep looking.

As you can tell, Steve is not hard-nosed PLAN B. He even said that I could meet with him face to face but he believes that WS would use his salesmanship to make me back down. I decided to write him a letter. I have not heard from him all day to day. He's probably stewing that he did not get his way.

Important issue here is that it has been a problem in our marriage of my WS feeling left out of my decisions. This is the olive branch concept coming into play. Steve says that it would be a LBer for me to buy a house without him at this point. We need to learn how to work together. WS gets controlling, I do what I want to do anyway without considering him. He has not learned how to communicate his wishes and I have not learned how to listen. Issue of the POJA, learning to negotiate. Decreased likelihood of reconciliation if I buy MY OWN house.

I asked our question, NOW WHAT. This is in reference to showing love to your WS in PLAN B. I don't know if this is true in your case or not, NOW WHAT. Along Kily's POV, my WS did not have an A because he did not feel loved by me. He is actually very confident of my love, assuming that I'm sitting here waiting. Steve says when WS gets into that conversation, he is trying to put me on the defensive and take the responsibility off of him, as if I caused him to have the A. Steve said: "He screwed up. He allowed somebody to get close to him who was an attractive source. He put the alcohol in his mouth and swallowed and failed to understand the danger of continuing to do this. He told me to not be concerned whether or not he thinks that I care.

My main concern should be MY PLAN. I should continue to look at houses but not buy one yet. Be ready in case WS does not surrender as MM would say.

Whew, I think that's about it.

I feel 200% better today than when I was involved with him again. I'm just frustrated about not having anywhere to live.

[ July 25, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Thanks Mimi.

My W started her A because I did not support her emotionally, she said that she felt empty inside, and did not think that I really cared about her. The OM was a brother of one of her best friends, was always around at functions and moved in on the opportunity. She knows now how much I love and care for her, based on my persistent Plan A. I still feel uncomfortabel as to what I should do. Good luck with you!
NW

I think Steve's advice is right on target! He really seems to have a good understanding of your WS! And it is nice to see that he is not dogmatic on absolutely no communication with WS. I think it is good to keep the lines of communication open.

I think Steve is right about stalling, and definitely right about the LB of you buying a house without him. But I think you may want to be "opaque" with your WS- keep him guessing. Keep the pressure on him, don't tell him you will lease. Otherwise I'm afraid he will think he has you sitting on hold again, this time in a less than desirable situation for you.

I think the posture is always a bit- "you have left me for another woman, I need to go on with my life. Of course I would have preferred to be doing this with you, but that is not an option for me since you are living with OW".

Keep him guessing as to what you are doing. I would try to schedule a vacation for yourself if possible. Join a group tour or something, get out of town. (Let him take care of son while you are away). I know you won't date, but let him worry that you might meet another man. (And of course, you would prefer to take a nice vacation with your husband, but since he is living with another woman, you really have no choice but to make the best of it and go alone).

I know what you mean about pride. My H is the same way. Ultimately, his A demeaned him and was the antithesis to pride. My H said, I'm a creator, not a destroyer, and the A was about destroying everything I had built over the years..." Fortunately he ended it before he lost the respect of his children, extended family, and community (very few people know what happened). I hope your WS will be able to see this soon!

Be careful of saying too much in a letter. I think less is more. Steve said it very succinctly, "I'd love to go househunting with you after you break it off with OW." pretty much says it all. I also think he is right on the money how your WS manipulates you saying he had the A because you didn't love him enough. Convenient to throw the blame on you!

As your WS has said all this stuff to you recently,(let's buy a house etc) has he ever concretely detailed to you his intention to break it off with her- and given you any kind of date or plan?

Mimi,
I almost start biting my toe nails <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . Thanks for the update. Only on comment ...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />As you can tell, Steve is not hard-nosed PLAN B. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, in your case you are strong enough not to LB and OW is fading away.

-rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
 So {Steve says} my response needs to be over and over again, keeping it simple: "Get rid of the OW. Only then will I go househunting with you." This is communicating my perspective which is different than his.

As you can tell, Steve is not hard-nosed PLAN B.

My main concern should be MY PLAN. I should continue to look at houses but not buy one yet. Be ready in case WS does not surrender as MM would say.

<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the update, Mimi. Many, many of us here reading, praying and pulling for you two!

Funny thing is, it ALL sounds so much like Mortar's advice to you! I think he's got this whole "Plan A, Plan B" thing totally, RIGHT ON. But, I'm sure it feels great to have talked to Steve H. and feel like you ARE on track!

Keep up the good work.

Good luck, and God Bless,

I think my ADDICTED WS definitely WANTS to end it EVENTUALLY but does not have a definite plan YET. He is trying to come up with a PLAN that does not make OWr go ballistic- which is impossible. He wants a plan that does it slowly, with the least amount of pain possible. He will have to do it the MB' way in order to succeed. He is fighting that, wanting to come up with his own way.

Finally!
Sounds pretty good! You are on track girl! Keep it up! I'm "learnin" so much from you! You are strong, stronger than you think, so don't give up!

Thanks for posting on my thread, it's been tough the last few days, but things seem better today. S seems to be coming out of the worst of it. It was scary though.
You know my story? You know me. Sometimes I want to just give up the fight for M, and other times, when I really remember the man WH used to be, then I reconsider. But it's getting harder.

Mimi & Steve H,

Mimi, I am glad you had such a good and informative meeting with Steve. You recapped it well. It has been a learning experience for many of us. I have seen you grow sooo much during this time. I am also quite proud of you.

Steve, I am not sure if you are reading this thread....hope so.... your help as well as Jennifer's help to us MBers has been invaluable.

Thank you both from the bottom of my heart. Please keep up the good work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi, that was time and $$ well spent.

Mahalo,
L.

Mimi, did Steve say how H should go about breaking it off? You said H wants to do it slowly.
In My opinion, the longer it's drawn out the more pain.
Gee, isn't is considerate of our H's to not want to hurt OW? Yet they had no problem just walking away and doing what they wished to us, our hearts and our souls.
Sorry, I guess I'm no good at these plans. The moment I found out it was NC or out for good. I would not have allowed mine back under any circumstance. But then he never moved out of house either. It was totally different A. Seen twice, talked to for months prior. When I found out, it was over that day!
Does Steve think this is just an excuse of H to prolong it? Still not made up his mind?
How about a deadline too? Either or?
I'd love to know what Steve recommends in this instance.
God bless, LouLou

Hi Mimi
You were so kind on my thread I just wanted you to know that I had been reading and following your thread. You are one strong lady. Your H sounds a bit like mine - not wanting to hurt OW and the pride thing. I was lucky though, I never had to go past Plan A. I found so much strength here, so much so that I have changed my attitude dramatically - no longer tearful and needy.
You are in my thoughts - I will continue to follow your progress, you are brilliant!
Jackie

LouLou:

Steve thinks there's only one way for my WS to break it off-abruptly and emphatically with NC letter, barriers to contact, etc. He told my WS this in their one session. I think WS knows that he needs to and wants to break it off but he is still addicted. He's not as deep into the addiction as before PLAN B but still enjoys the drug although it is not making him high. It's like when I knew I needed to stop smoking or else it was going to kill me but it took a medical condition for me to finally stop. The addiction analogy is always helpful for me and it is what Steve always uses. WS is trying to avoid all pain which is impossible.

He does not want me to give a deadline. Just recommended that I think of myself as in a "holding pattern for several months". I'm thinking Steve thinks WS will make a move soon. He mentioned that we should date(?),not live together initially, even if and when he "gets rid of her".

Jackie:

Thanks for your support. I will keep in contact with you.

MIMI, I am glad to here there is so much progress in your PLAN B and how much your session helped you with Steve .

I agree with LL , It is amazing that WS 's put so much thought into how they will RID themselves Of OP . When they didn't worry about how much pain they caused the BS when they did all this ..

BUT in my very twisted situation that I was in I relived that , H getting "RID" of OW and how he did it really had to be his problem .

Yes it caused me pain to know he even cared about hurting her feelings or any thing else for that matter ,, But now I am very happy that I did not demand how he did it and that I stood by him .

I wanted N/C and I have that now going on 2 months , I came to relize him doing it the he wanted was part of his heeling process , what he could live with ,, his guilt or what ever .

I know I might get 2x4 for saying it , but I still think it helped ..The hard part was me dealing with the thougt of knowing he even gave a $hit for hurting her , but weather we want to realize it or not the WS has guilt for what they do to OP also , thats what makes it so hard to swallow ..

I do hope he comes out of FOG more and more and just ends it faster for your emotional state of mind .. But you sound well and just IMVHO don't bother with what he does in respects to OW ,, the how , he does it as long as he does it and SHOWS you that he is recommitted to working on your M ..

OH and for what its worth I can relate to all you are saying about your gut about the house and his EN needs involing that issue ..

Stay strong and keep moving ahead with your personal recovery , stay calm you got him on the ropes . LOL

Mimi, thank you for clarifying what Steve thinks. I was wondering if it was just me and my temper or if it's the way to go. I mean immediate break off with OW.
But reading on I see it has to be his way perhaps to really break for good.
I just commend you for your strength in all this. I could never be that patient which is a real flaw of mine!
I'm grateful I didn't have to contend with it the way you have as I'd never have lasted! I admit my faults where I see them.
I do pray he doesn't keep you hung up for months waiting to see what he does! Hopefully he'll end this soon.
Even though you're doing a great job, it can't be easy on your emotions.
I'm sure we're all really anxious for the day we hear he's done with it and ready to recommit to you!
God bless and keep on keeping on. LouLou

Mimi,

Just wanted to chime in and say it is great that you got everything out of Steve.

Like I said before, I have counseled with Steve and he is GREAT!

Also, by your posts, it is apparent that I have been actually listening to Steve! Seems like most of what I wrote previously was pretty much Steve's call also (okay...this was a shameless pat on the back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Now, the big question Mimi...are you going to do it this time? Full out, no stopping?

Even Steve believes your husband is close. So get with it woman!

In His arms.

I have to say I'm sorry that I let you guys down. You have seemed so proud of me. I don't think all is lost but I goofed big time.

I was tempted to keep this a secret but maybe my experience might help someone else. Also, I continually need your support so it would only hurt me in the long run not to be honest with you guys.

WS pursued and caught me in the video store. It was inevitable, what transpired, now that I think of it. Once we saw each other it was no turning back. It was like in a movie. We haven't seen each other in about two months. We are very attracted to each other. I was looking very good today. I know it. I fix up provocatively on the weekend to make myself feel good. Cologne, makeup and all. Well, you guessed it.

We did not talk much in the store. He came up and said "Hi, Mimi". I said "Hi, this is such a huge mistake." (Those words slipped out of my mouth).

About a half hour later he called saying, "Can you meet me at the office?" It seemed my mind wasn't working. It was like I was under a spell. I went. I won't fill in all of the blanks regarding the preliminary chit-chat we engaged in. He said, "Can I get a hug?" and then it was "On". To be honest, it was the best S*** experience I can ever remember having in my life. It was very intense, involved and unforgettable. It felt like making love, not s**** for many different reasons that I can't detail. WS said things he used to say before, that I have not heard in years. Unfortunately, , I met that SF need for me that he has been missing during PLAN B. However, the good news is I more than upheld the fantasy he had of PLAN A. Maybe it was a test to see if it was still there. It is.

He says it won't be more than a week before NC. Maybe this was part of his plan. Did he need this to motivate him or enable him? He was using the statement, "I am committed to you this time".

I know it was a mistake but right this minute I don't care. In the short term, it was wonderful. I'll probably start my withdrawal again tomorrow. I'm still on a high tonight. I just sit and relive the experience.

Actually I plan to proceed with BUYING a house. I probably will check with him to find out which houses he has also liked. I just cannot find a rental house that I can bear to live in. I think living in a rental will build up too much resentment in me that I was reduced to that level. I cried yesterday when I saw the first one. I said to myself, "I don't think I can do this regardless" Sorry to folks who think that I am being too materialistic or don't have my values straight. This home issue seems to be extremely key to both me and WS.

I hope you guys will continue to support me.

Mimi, if it means anything to you, I KNOW I would have done the same. It's hard to resist when your feelings are so strong and there's obvious chemistry. Don't beat yourself up over this, it's done, glad it was so good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Did you do it in the office? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hope the fire alarms are working, sounds like there were some serious sparks flying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

On the house thing. I don't think you are being materialistic at all. It's your home after all. Why should you lower your standards? Keeping H in the loop is good.

Hope you don't mind me putting my 2 cents in, Jackie.

Jackie:
Even moving from place to place to different areas IN THE OFFICE . Very Rated! What can I say??? It happened.

[ July 27, 2003, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

WOW!!!

What more can I say, I'm green with envy - H is still away golfing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Maybe now that he's had a taste of what could be, your H will speed up his decision. You could use this to your advantage. Let this be a "carrot", but don't let it happen again or he'll start cake-eating again! JMHO.

Be strong, Jackie.

MIMI! WHEW!!
I don't fault you at all for "letting" this happen! Only time will tell if it helps or not.
IF it does help, then GREAT, the gamble paid off.
IF not, then you know what you have to do, it may set you back a bit time wise, but I don't think all will be lost because of it!
You are only human after all!!
Keep us posted! And if you are tempted again before NC, DON'T give in, just leave him wanting you!

Mimi,

Ya know! If you're going to break contact...why not really break it LOL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have a big hunch this isn't going to hurt your situation....and I sure hope that's the case. I think the thing to do now is to use it to the best advantage and go completely and utterly SILENT. Let him remember the wanton minx you were in that office and not be able to approach you at all. Be unattainable, that little taste of what he is missing haunting his mind. Disappear as though it meant nothing. I hope this speeds up the process of NC. If it doesn't, well your Plan B may have to extend a bit....but regardless, it seems ample evidence....that it ain't over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi .....

I wanted to point out something to you .... not as a reprimand, but to open your eyes to something .... and maybe challenge you just a bit.

You said:

"I know it was a mistake but right this minute I don't care. In the short term, it was wonderful. I'll probably start my withdrawl again tomorrow. I'm still on a high tonight. I just sit and relive the experience."

These words may be close to verbatum what a WS tells him/her self when breaking NC.

If you've ever seen the movie "Unfaithful" you can feel these thoughts pass through her mind as the incredible Diane Lane rides the train home after meeting her lover.

I don't blame you one single bit Mimi!!!! I did the exact same thing when I made WS live elsewhere ..... but with one difference .... my WS was not still having sex with OW.

Go get tested Mimi. And, you'll have to get tested again in about 3 months. If OW is an experienced gal-around-town .... you may have picked up some virus or bacteria.

Sorry ..... this sucks!

Today is a new day ..... and, on the bright side, I'm sure you've given WS something to think about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now is the time to turn your Plan B back on .... cuz he's gotten a "taste of Mimi" and will want a second dessert real soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Pep:

It was SAFE S****.

You got it! The whole experience was like UNFAITHFUL. That was the movie I was thinking of.

Mimi, you dog!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You have him cheating on the OW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, now that you have given him a taste of things to come, I hope you back away quick, lest he stay on the fence between 2 women for another 6 months preparing to deliver that NC letter. Please tell him to contact you WHEN he has ended contact.

LOL Way to go Mimi. Perhaps letting him get a taste of what he's missing will put him to action faster.
Sorry but I got to say this. I hope he went home and OW found him too exhausted to do it with her. LOL
I do agree with the others though on not letting him get you in this circumstance again!
A week after H came home from last visit with OW, and he'd told her he was staying in his marriage, he had me make a reservation for mountain cabin.
It was one wild S** weekend.It was like he hand't made love in a very long time. Well, he did say OW was not capable of real love making.
But I say it was sex only with OW and making love with us!
Fortunately for me, she wasn't in shape to do much. LOL
There really is a edge for wife who knows her H's sexual taste and likes and dislikes. Experience wins everytime!
Oh well, I'm rattling on. LOL That image of the office is great!
Get back to being evasive. And hey, the house is important because it's not just a house, it will be your home! Big difference there.
Look at it as not being materialistic.Because if you're in a house where you're not happy, it will tell. And that makes it harder to put your energy into rebuilding the marriage part.
A woman's home is a very important part of her. If she's happy in it, it shows!
You don't need anything that would put you in a depressed mood!
So choose according to your taste and one you know will be a happy place for you both when H comes home! Ones surroundings have a lot to do with moods.
God bless, LouLou

Mimi,
I'm pretty new around here but have read your posts. I don't blame you at all for what you did. In fact I did the same thing and it's amazing how the sparks can fly!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I agree with what Star said, you this to your advantage!! I understand what you mean about your house and not wanting to rent. You do what is best for you!!!

I wish you all the best!!!

Time for a title change Mimi! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Is that what you're up to? Thought you might be on now. No worries. It's late for me, time for bed, will check in in the a.m.

Mimi

I wouldn't beat yourself up over what happened. In any case you can't undo it. I would though look carefully at how you react to it.
My opinion is that what you have done has shown your WH some of what he is missing and that is positive. On the other hand, you have also shown him that you are still there and attracted to him (i.e. he has you as a fall-back - you are 'waiting' for him). I think you need to go dark now, and I mean really go dark on him. He may well contact you or try to engineer a repeat. It is very important that you are not there for him. This will be hard for you, but I think it will pay greater dividends.

Good luck.

S.

I'm open to suggestions.

I think it's a good thing that I am coming to terms with who I AM. Even though it may be the best thing for my marriage, I cannot move into a rental house. That would be a major LBer for the WS. The Love Bank would daily dwindle to zero. I would feel that he put me in the position of suffering not only the loss of him but also the loss of what I treasure. As I told you guys before, I make a house into a home. That is one of my joys in life. I need a place to put my trinkets including my doll collection and my teddy bear collection and my figurines and the flower arrangements that I have made and my candle lamps which match each room, etc.

So I'm giving him until tomorrow. If he does not meet my conditions, I'm buying a house on my own. I've given him the option of looking at the houses so he does not "feel left out". I used those words, realizing that has been a big issue in our marriage. He seemed to really appreciate that I understood the importance of this to him. However, he tried to stall me. I can't be stalled or else I could end of homeless. I only have two weeks left to close on a house.

I guess I'm like my WS. I did it MY WAY ,not strictly by the MB principles. However, this is new for me and I feel good about it. It's a chance that I am taking I know. However, if he wants to be with me, he will live with me in the house that I have chosen. It cannot be said that I did not consider his opinion although actually he has no right to have an opinion. My gut says that he's really close and we will eventually have sometime together to try our marriage again. If not, losing me is his loss.

[ July 28, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

[ July 28, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Firstly, I don't know if the recent "episode" between you and WS is necessarily a bad thing, (though I don't think you should make a habit of it- too enabling). After the distance of Plan B, at least it reiterates to him that there is still electricity between the two of you. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think in a sense you are in a make or break period for your marriage. I think the house issue is a huge issue for both of you with big ramifications.

When do you have to move out of your house by, Mimi?

I think you have to play some hardball with WS right now. It's scary and I am even scared to perhaps suggest this since I am no way a professional counselor and since Steve is advocating staying in a holding pattern. Yes, a holding pattern is okay- don't rush to make decisions but I think you have to keep the pressure up. Or your WS will be content to fence sit.

You need a place to live. A home that is comfortable and pleasant, that you can focus on. And you make a good point- if you have to put your life on hold, living in a dump while you wait for WS, you will resent him.

I think in a sense, this is WS's choice. He has a window of opportunity here.

He can break it off with OW, come back to the relationship, work on rebuilding and recreating a marital home TOGETHER. That's a huge opportunity for him.

Or he can stay in the relationship with OW, you will buy a house that will suit you, he can continue to dabble with OW for months longer, maybe years, and maybe you'll be there, maybe you won't. After all, you have needs too, and by choosing OW he is leaving you vulnerable to meeting someone else. Don't let him think otherwise Mimi. Don't let him think you are a saintly nun who is wearing a chastity belt! One thing that did affect my WS alot was worrying whether I might hook up with someone else.

I think you have to keep him off balance about whether you will be there waiting for him. You have to keep focused on your plans.

I don't know if this technique would help, but when my WS was waffling, I would play out the scenario as though he had gone all the way. I would paint the picture for him of him living in the country ("his dream") with OW, changing diapers of their child (she wanted one)(he would vehemently deny that they would have kids, and I would point out that pregnancy might not be in his control if he was leaving the birth control measures up to her) and me getting on with my life on my own with him taking the kids for visitation. I would refer to OW caring for our children and my WS would indignantly deny that she would ever care for our children. He actually claimed she wouldn't be living with him. Calmly I would say, well you're moving in with her, so it seems realistic to assume she'll be caring for our children. In my case, I believe painting the picture brought reality home to my WS fast enough that he decided not to proceed. The fact that she lived far away also helped.

In your case, I've said this before, I wouldn't let WS think that you are just going to burn a candle in the window forever. You can't do this in a threatening way- but it is reality.

So, you can talk about that stuff with him. There are subtle ways to make your points without lovebusting.

[ July 28, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]

Mimi,(AKA Frank???) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I've been looking out for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have you gone back into Plan B proper since your WILD OFFICE ENCOUNTER?

This house issue is a big deal for both of you. Surely, when it comes to buying a house you would have a good idea of what H would want/like, and would bear that in mind in your choice?
ALL the houses we've owned (SIX in total) except 1 H chose before M, and ALL the ones we've rented as ex-pats (FIVE) I have chosen. H knows that I know what he likes/does not like. Yes, he has always been consulted, but it's just as a courtesy. He KNOWS I would never chose a house that he'd be miserable in. It would make my life even more miserable! LOL. I'm sure your H knows that too.

Just a thought

Maybe - forgive me if I've got it wrong - you are focusing on a potential LB that doesn't exist. Think about this:
If you choose/buy a house that he would LOVE , wouldn't that put huge deposits in the Love Bank? Don't know what you think of that, just thought I'd put my own twist on things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mimi,

How are you doing? Recovered from the S? (LOL).

Lucky I can laugh. Tonight my H and I talked on the phone. I asked him about OW. He admitted spending the entire weekend with her. Admitted he is "in love" with her. In response to my question, he is "in love" with me also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Asked if he could give her up and return home to work on recovery...he said no.

I told him Plan B, but this time he has to move completely OUT (remember, he has his office in our home). He was open to it, said just to give him time to make arrangements with the home office.

I am very concerned. Like many others, I worry I will totally lose him. But I have to do Plan B for me and get stronger.

Mimi, sorry to hijack your thread. Please feel free to ignore, or to move over to my thread and post a response there.

BTW, am trying to follow the Mimi School of Thread Title Changing...not as successful as the original Mimi, of course!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hijacked and did an update on IS GIRL's thread. I did not mean to keep going and going when I was posting to her. I will keep you guys informed. I'm confident that he is close.

He's trying to do it HIS WAY as Steve Harley indicated. He might pull it off. Meanwhile, I have to try not to get sucked back into their world. I will focus on my upcoming move.

I'm busy with moving.

WS is probably content in his mind that I am making a new nest for him that he can come back to when he gets ready.

I would call it a "holding pattern".

I have mixed emotions. I'm excited about the process of nesting, making a new home. I'm not so happy about the waiting.

Hi Mimi,

You're doing well, I think. Keep concentrating on the move. Getting settled in your new house, getting it decorated, making it "yours" will be a great focus for you. I know, though, that if you are like me and my H, you will miss his involvement in making it a home. But try to remember you are doing this for you, not necessarily for "us." Although I pray to God that it ends up for both of you...but that is not where your head needs to be now.

I am surprisingly at peace right now. I think this second Plan B is working, for me, much better than the first. During the first, I obsessed about my H constantly and this time I really forcing myself to concentrate on me - doing things for me, that are good for me, fun for me, etc.

Anyway, here I go again, venting and hijacking (sorry!). Keep the strength, gal! You are doing so well, and appear to be the closes of any of us. Don't lose your footing now.

{{{{{{Mimi}}}}}}}

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

IS:
What's so crazy is that my WS keeps trying to get involved with aspects of my move and the new house. He's trying to be a part of everything. However, he's not with me. He keeps saying "We" and "Us". He obsessively calls my Voice Mail about new things such as "I was thinking WE need a new washer and dryer; I've been going out and looking at them; You ought to drop by Sears and look at them". Another example, "let me give you this number of an advertisement I got for blinds". However, he is still "out there", as he says, and has not done the NC letter. Interesting! It's like he has a new project that has invigorated him. I guess he's wanting to "be happy" as Steve Harley said.

Mimi,

That house is the biggest piece of cake you have given him so far. He is happy because he has two women to take care of his needs. He is happy because now he can feel safe to work on and work out his relationship with OW. And still have you and the house there in the end.

This is called enabling. Insert "cocaine" in the place of "OW". Since this is an addiction. Now, would you let a coke addict that is runnign around town, ruining things, in on your plans for the future? Would you continue to do things so he can feel comfortable in his addiction and can continue to do what he is doing?

Come on Mimi. I know Steve told you the deal here. You should be in a holding pattern. Okay, dont upset the house issue. But he need not be involved at all until he meets conditions of PBL.

The more you let him sit the fence, the longer this will take.

In His arms.

Oh Gawd Mimi! I had to re-read your last post to make sure whose post I was reading! GIRL, you sound like an OW waiting for her MM to leave his wife!! Mortarman is right...you're feeding his addiction. I know it feels really really good right now, and I know you're on a real high from your little ROMP the other day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but you need to remind him that you're looking out for number one, and he's only welcome to join the party when he's met the requirements. He can whine and "sell" his story to someone else...YOU KNOW BETTER!!!

Mimi?

I thought you were in Plan B, Hon? Maybe I need to catch up, are you in Plan A?

Jo

no. Still in Plan B. WS calls on VoiceMail.

Mimi, Mortarman is right. Your WS now has a harem. Who could ask for more??

I'm feeling beat up on. You are scaring me away. There's nothing else I can do now. I guess he has to eat his cake. I'm not being involved with him. I have no other choice than to move into the house. I'm doing everything on my own. I don't understand what you guys are suggesting that I do?

There's no way that I could have lived in those rented houses or apartments. I guess that's the way I am. To me that would have been like living in hell, increasing my depression. I am not depressed at all right now. So be it. This is the way that I am.

[ July 30, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Well, okay then. How I look at Plan B is you ask yourself "am I meeting ANY of my WSs needs?"

And if the answer is "yes", then you should know what NOT to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I know it's hard to do, I really do. But like the others have said, you're enabling him to fence sit.

Most WS's get angry with the on-set of Plan B, and some try to manipulate it, test the waters to see how serious you are. You need to illustrate you are serious, but in a loving manner. Just like your Plan B letter has stated.

Best,
Jo

Please don't feel beat up, Mimi. You've done such a good job. None of this is easy and that's a fantastic understatement.

I think perhaps you just need a boost. Moving from your home would be very hard, I can't imagine having to do that and go through all you've gone through.

You've been so strong and your husband is lucky to have you. Hope he unfogs swiftly. He may miss out on a wonderful new marriage with you.

Jo

What everyone here says sounds real good. However, I really don't know what else I can do right now. The other options sucked worse than the position that I am in now. I think I made the mistake of selling my house too quickly and then found out I had no other place to live.

I'm sorry that I let everyone here down. The deal is cut. Like I said before, there's nothing else I can do. He has me where he wants me, I guess. You're right, like the OW waiting for him to leave the wife. WOW!! That's sad.

There will be no more SF although that's tempting. There will be no more contact. We'll see what happens.

I don't know what else you guys are expecting me to do.

Maybe I misunderstood, I apologize sweetie. Please don't be stressed.

Here's a couple things you should do:

1. Take excellent care of Mimi. Treat her like your very best friend, pamper and love her.

2. Do not meet any of your WS's needs. ZERO, NADA, NONE!

That's the MB short list and I think it pretty much covers it.

Love,
Jo

[ July 30, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Mimi, I think you are doing really well. I'm far too impulsive. You seem to have learned patience, something I'm still working on. I know it's frustrating, but it WILL be worth it.
Thinking of you
Jackie

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
I'm feeling beat up on. You are scaring me away. There's nothing else I can do now. I guess he has to eat his cake. I'm not being involved with him. I have no other choice than to move into the house. I'm doing everything on my own. I don't understand what you guys are suggesting that I do?

There's no way that I could have lived in those rented houses or apartments. I guess that's the way I am. To me that would have been like living in hell, increasing my depression. I am not depressed at all right now. So be it. This is the way that I am.<hr /></blockquote>Mimi, I am sorry I am making you feel bad. It truly wasn't intentional. {{{{{{{{{{MIMI}}}}}}}}}}

The only thing I am suggesting is pulling away from him and going back into Plan B. He seems to think he has you all lined up now waiting patiently for him unless I have misunderstood. He is calling and talking like everything is normal and it is NOT.

I just think its important to reiterate Plan B with him and tell him there is going to be no discussion about anything [no more voicemails] until contact with the OW ends. Until that happens you are moving on with your life and will make plans for your home ALONE.

Because you really are ALONE until he ends things with OW. And as long as you keep allowing this contact - this false hope - he has no motivation to end things. Hopefully, the timing of such a message will have a huge impact given the SF he had last weekend. I just think its a huge mistake to let him think a repeat is possible unless he dumps the OW. See what I mean?

I can remain steadfast to not repeat what happened over the weekend.

I don't know how to change his normalization of things. That's a mindset that he has taken on himself. He has convinced himself or has a plan that he will be living with me in the house soon. I am assuming that means that he plans on meeting my conditions. Planning and thinking about the house seems to be a huge part of his day. He is self-employed, makes his own hours. Should I have an extended conversation with him about this? He knows very well that a NC letter is required.

When he did this before, he did eventually leave her? However, as we recall, he did go back to her. Before, he had not had the extended PLAN B and extended time alone with her. Also, before, I was meeting regularly with him which I am not doing now. I guess he is attempting to get me to do that again.

I will pull back again. It's not going to be easy over the next few days. I will need to be in contact to turn off/on utilities, do closing on this house, etc.

About being alone. To be honest, I really don't like the idea of getting on with my life ALONE. I know it sounds crazy but this minimal contact with him over the past few days does feel better than any of those days and months in PLAN B did. That's what I meant about not liking what I have found out about myself. I have no desire to be the INDEPENDENT WOMAN. I was ALONE with the blinds lady tonight and it really sucked. I hated it. I am getting no pleasure from moving in a house by myself and got no pleasure from looking for a house by myself. Like I've said before, I often understand how the women in European countries allow their husbands to have mistresses. YUK!!

[ July 31, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi

allow me to be blunt:

1) Overall you are doing an excellent job
2) You could do a really excellent if you take on board the extra advice here
3) Even to get to level (1) is a major achievement and is very hard emotionally
4) Of course contact feels good - you love him, he is your husband. However, you are now in the position of an OW - getting your fix. You need to be strong - you can see him coming round, don't let him backslide.
5) Do not respond to his suggestions on the house - issue him an e-mail along the lines of "Dear H, I am moving on with my life. I have spelt out before the conditions under which I would like you to be part of it. As they are currently not being met I have no use for your input. Thank you for your thoughts. Mimi"

Good luck and keep us posted.

S.

MIMI , I think you are doing great , SOME WS's when ready to make that leap to come back need to feel secure in coming home after PLAN B .

They got "the picture" I am sure he is/was scared
that if he didn't start doing some begging you where really moving on .

I know thats what PLAN B is suppose to do , but now at this stage , I really can relate to what your saying and doing .

Go with your gut , JMVHO $ 2 cents LOL ,,, I don't think your giving in to much .

Just enough to let him know you love him , and will take him back in when your conditions are meet ..

And don't say you don't like the person you found in you ,, this person was able to become independent from what you where in the past .

YOUR ws saw that 2 , I know hering the words , you are letting ws" cake eat and you and letting him fence sit "

can stir up some anger , because you honestly do not feel your doing that .

And for what its worth I don't think so either ..

I may get very flamed here but ok ,,, I know the N/C thing is supposed to be easy in the BS's eyes , just tell the B!tch she is/was a mistake ,, but the WS doesn't see it like that they are scared , guilty ,ect.

AND also they feel they have a life time to make up the pain they caused there S , but they left the OP in turmoil

I am not saying it is right that they care about hurting OP I am just saying BS's can't change the way they feel or the way they have to leave the OP ..

This is just my observation from listening to my H and the wacky way he felt about getting N/C achieved with OW .

Alot of what your H is doing and saying mine did the first time after PLAN B . So I can relate ..

I would just stick with what your doing and once you are ready to take him back MAKE dam sure that BOY knows the conditions and bounderies to reconcile .

And that you will never tolarate contact again .

Stay strong , keep those spirts up . Your doing great ..

MiMi-

I've responded to you over at NW's thread.

The basic jist...he doesn't deserve you. You are beautiful and he should be begging at your feet for forgiveness. Plan_b his A$$ and get yourself strong. You don't NEED that man. YOu don't NEED any man.

Mimi, I think you misunderstood what we're driving at. What I got from the post I responded to is that your WH is in contact with you daily about this move of yours. I know you don't WANT to live there alone, but I hope you realize you minimize the chances of that (and expediate the results you want) by holding firm to a strong Plan B for a while.

I have to disagree with the "go with your gut" post. DEFINATLY not flaming the poster!!!! But as a FWS myself, I'll tell you that it might feel better to inch your way in, but if you really want him to snap his head out of the fog and start REAL recovery (and yes, he still has to get through withdrawl!!) then inching won't do the trick. It took a solid belt to the butt for my head to finally peek its way out. Some can argue that some WS's are different than others, but in my opinion your playing with fire by slighting your plan even a little bit. The more you look ready to move on, and the stronger you appear, the more appealing you are to the WS and the more they want to be with YOU and not anyone else.

No one is beating up on you!! We wouldn't bother to post if we weren't sure you're ALMOST THERE!! All of us love a happy ending, and none of us can stand to see someone so close only to have backsliding. Stand strong and re-iterrate your Plan B stance. This move is for and about YOU, not US, until H actually takes action to back his words.

Good luck mimi!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:

About being alone. To be honest, I really don't like the idea of getting on with my life ALONE. I know it sounds crazy but this minimal contact with him over the past few days does feel better than any of those days and months in PLAN B did. !!<hr /></blockquote>Well, if you keep throwing him bones and breaking Plan B, you WILL be alone! That is what we are all trying to help you prevent. That is one of the points of Plan B. He has NO MOTIVATION to end things with the OW as long as you keep meeting his needs. We want you to give him some motivation, ok, Mimi? We love ya and want him home! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, I think we're all being a little too hard on Mimi. What do we all know? I think everyone has a different situation and we each have to finetune things according to our own personal radar.

I think Mimi did handle the house situation as best she could. She may have sold the house too quickly- but the house was also a source of pain to her. It may be just as well that she will have the distraction of creating a new house. It is unfortunate that WS thinks she will just be waiting for him to join her in the nest, but difficult to avoid.

It is good that her WS is thinking about the washer and dryer etc. Maybe he is still sitting on the fence, but at least mentally he is throwing some energy her way. Eventually he has to make the break with OW using his own energy. Mimi can only do so much to help him, he has to do it on his own. YES it's true she can't be a pushover- but I don't think she has been.

I think Mimi has to sit tight a little longer. I don't think a strict Plan B is necessarily crucial. You risk getting so cut off from your spouse. I think to some extent contact might be good. It sounds like her WS knows what he has to do. But Mimi, you can't sit around like you are twiddling your thumbs just waiting for him to come home.

This is just me, but if it was me...

I would say, "WS, I love you and I think we could have a great relationship, but we can't really have any kind of a relationship while you're seeing OW. Thanks so much for the washer and dryer, they will make my life more convenient and easy. Have to go, I'm busy fixing the house up and then I have my cooking class. And I'll be away next week on my vacation in Timbuktu, I'll send you a postcard... oh, and by the way, you don't mind if I date a little while you're living with OW, do you? That session we had the other day made me realize I am definitely missing male companionship...ta-ta, dear"

OK the above is not exactly serious. I do think however, that doing the 180 so to speak might be a good tactic for Mimi right now. Not a total Plan B, more of a mysterious tantalizing plan.

Mimi- a question-
IS WS LIVING WITH OW EVERY DAY? (please answer)
Does she still have her place? Has she moved her stuff into the condo? Where is her daughter living?

Re: the house. Is WS buying you a "better" house that he would like too? Did he look at it? Are you happy with it?

Hi Espoir ...

Now 180's are fine and all, but that part about telling the WS that she is dating? I don't think that would be something Mimi should say to WS ... you were just sighting an example, right?

Jo

Espoir still has it! I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised. I have my own strategy that I am using that is somewhat along the same lines as Espoir is saying. I got my washer and dryer today, by myself, with my own credit card,top of the line model. I almost put it on his account. Salesperson gave me that option, not knowing my situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Actually, I got a better house than I have now with creative financing. It's beautiful! Another dream house. Will tell you more about that later.

OW continues to live in her dumpy house in a bad side of town. She did put a new hanging flower basket on her front porch. Sorry, I had to do one more driveby just to make sure that she is still there. She still lives there with her daughter. I know WS is probably finding the daughter to be a real grievance.

I am happy for you, Mimi. Doing things all on your own for the first time is very empowering, I've been there.

I understand that you, more than anyone, know your husband like no one else. And I agree that a hybrid version of the Plans can be appropriate at times, but please keep in mind that when Harley developed these Principals and Plans he based it on studying human nature and those associated nuances, intricacies and habits of adultery time after time.

So do what you think best, but try very hard to let your husband see what life is like without Mimi. It's the only sure way for him to make up his own mind. A firm decision with no waffling.

Of all things, I KNOW you certainly don't want a husband that waffles back and forth between you and OW for an indefinite amount of time.

Best,
Jo

Mimi,
Hang in there girl,you are doing fine.
Keeping busy is about the best thing you can do, try to keep your mind occupied with things other than WH. I try but it is hard!!
I admire the fact that you were able to sell the house, I am stuck on that one myself...I love our house that we built so much of ourselves, a lot of work went into it, and now I'm taking care of it myself as best I can. WH doesn't want me to sell, I wonder why, he doesn't seem to care about it enough to live in it. Although we do agree that it would be harder on the kids to move at this time in their lives and with everything else going on.
I know it's hard waiting, especially if you are as close as it appears, every day must seem an eternity!
Just hang in there, you seem to be doing well. Hopefully a new beginning and recovery is right around the corner. In the meantime, live your life...

Shugah:

Pay close attention to the house issue. I did not realize how sensitive and delicate that is to men. Steve H. says that for men house ownership symbolizes a close connection.

To All:

I think it's important for folks on the forum to not be judgmental. I was feeling that way. It won't drive me away from here but think about that woman that was starting to date and folks seemed to gang up on her. She's not here anymore and may need us. We are only human and our emotions can overpower us especially after being traumatized by the horrors of infidelity.

I was blessed in being able to purchase a house that WS and I had looked at together prior to D-Day. I really believe in MB and it has been the answer for me. However, with any approach, I think it's important to consider individual differences. Steve H. has even done that with me in each session that I have had with him. He calls my WS by name and talks about HIS issues and HIS personality. So I have had to be careful in considering these issues too in my decision-making.

There may have been some miscommunication on my part. I have continued to follow Steve's recommendations. He told me to have MINIMAL COMMUNICATION with my WS but did not instruct me to cut off communication. He told me that my communication should SIMPLY stress GET RID OF OW and that is basicallly what I am doing. WS' reaction has been to continue to beg and plead and to come up with all sorts of strategies in order to remove me from that stance. I have continued to proceed with house plans on my own, buying appliances, arranging movers, etc. In my opinion, PLAN B has worked in showing him life without MIMI. WS knows that his life without MIMI has a high likelihood of continuing but he still is testing me, still hanging on the fence but just about to fall off. It's tricky and delicate. I agree with Espoir that he has to have some sense of connection with me, an olive branch. I hear from Steve H. that he has that opinion, too. Steve almost was giving me permission (?) to meet with WS but Steve picked up on,as we all already know, the strong physical/emotional attraction between WS and I. I think the Harleys left out this chapter on the end of PLAN B and will include it in the revised version of SAA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

What I was not able to do, which is in reference to a personality feature specific to me, was to live in a rental house. I have continued to check on this for validation. Everybody that really knows me laugns at the thought of me even considering that option. They basically all say :"MIMI" we thought you had gone "crazy" but we did not feel free to tell you; WS had finally sent you over the edge!"

MM also talked about, in the biblical sense, an important issue in our situation. A major problem in our marriage was WS not being included in my decisions, him being left out. This was a huge issue for him not feeling that he was able to fulfill the role of the husband. We will need to work on this in counseling if and when there is reconciliation. However, it is important to note the significance of this issue in the house stuff while he is considering coming HOME. Of course, none of the marital issues justify or excuse him for having an A.

These are some things I felt I had to say.

[ August 01, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Thanks for the help in understanding things better, Mimi. You're in the best capable hands when following SteveH's advice.

One note: I am one of the many who made the terrible mistake and "dated" while separated. It was a HUGE mistake that I regret with all my heart. I hurt someone terribly and I also added to my grief and prolonged my healing.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted my marriage and husband back more than anything in this world, I really thought I was going to die without him. But this guy was pretty wonderful and he made me feel better.

I had several people here tell me to wait, and they didn't pull any punches. But did I listen? NOOOOOO, I wanted to feel good and having this guy fall all over me certainly was a high UNTIL I started to fall apart again. I had no business dating, I was a wreak and emotionally bankrupt, but THAT HIGH is undeniably the greatest feeling until it's gone, then you're emotionally worse off than you were before you dated.

I just thought I'd share that, hope it's okay I did.

Very Best,
Jo

[ August 01, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

I AM NOT DATING ANYBODY including my WS !!!!

[ August 01, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

Another misunderstanding. I do know that, I was referring to the woman you made reference of in your latest post, Hon.

No worries, please be okay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jo

Mimi,

I dont know about everyone else, but I KNOW what you are talking about. I also have been talking to Steve over all of this, and what you posted rings true to his advice.

Plan B is meant to be no, or minimal contact (kids, finances, etc). But, as I posted on a nother thread (I think it was NowWhat), there is a point, a transition period, where the WS does come looking for an "olive branch." So, unlike some who say stay completely in the dark until the NC letter is sent, I found in my case, with Steve's advice backing me, that it was good to show my wife that I meant what I said in the letter

Up to the point where she came by and wanted to talk reconciliation, I had gone dark. Minimal contact And that contact was VERY structured. But when she showed up at my door in January (a full six weeks after going dark), we had a 4 hour conversation. No how is that no contact? How is that minimal contact? She hadnt sent the NC letter to the OM. So why was I even talking to her?

Well, I wasnt really. I didnt initiate this. I didnt drive the conversation. I didnt even offer up anything in the conversation that wasnt asked for by my wife. I let her talk. I let her ask questions. You see, I learned that while we here at MB understand the dynamics and all, our WSs might want to come back...but are very afraid of what will happen. Did we mean what we said in the letter? Is there a chance to work on this?

For everyone here...there is a point (FWSs please let me know if I'm off base) where the WS got to that got them into the affair. Once in it, the OP and the BS was meeting their needs. they stayed in the fog and fence sat because they were too scared to let one go. After loneliness, whatever, that led to the affair, now they were having all their needs met. To let one or the other go would be VERY painful...and no guarantee that the person they chose to keep would meet the needs that the other was meeting. Very scary for someone in an addiction!

So, Plan B forces them to live that painful life for awhile. It wakes them up to what is inevitably going to happen, one way or another. Once they understand this, in most cases, it means the end of the relationship with the OP. The WS now knows that they dont want to live without their spouse. Because of a good Plan A, they also have some idea that their spouse might just meet their needs like they have always wanted. And because of Plan A and Plan B, the OP has now shown their true colors...and the WS KNOWs that the OP aint "all that!"

But, now they are stuck with an OP that they know isnt what they want, and is increasingly LBing them. They have no contact with their spouse because they are in Plan B. The WS is in pain, and it is getting worse, both from the withdrawal from their spouse AND from the increasing discontent with their OP. They begin to panic. they try crazy things to get us to engage them. But the BS, if aware of this, will KNOW if the WS wanting to engage them is just panic, or finally a break through.

While it is still panic, while the WS still wants to fence sit, the BS just refers the WS back to the PBL and goes dark again. This is where Now What is. What this does is to push the WS back into their pain, with no needs still met by the BS the pain continues and increases.

Finally, if this process is stuck to, the WS has a breakthrough. They know they want to come back. They want to get rid of the OP. But they dont know how. Sure, they can read our PBL. But that isnt very descriptive. "What should the letter say? I care for the OP...how do I do this without hurting them (which they will finally realize that they cant...that pain is all a part of this process)? What if I get rid of OP and BS doesnt take me back? I mean, I havent had much interaction with BS. Maybe they have moved on. How do I know that what they showed me in Plan A is true, the changes? What if I go back and everything is the same as before, OR WORSE?" A thousand questions...and no answers for them.

I likened this on another post to an army surrendering to another army. They sit across a field, one army defeated but still hasnt given up. They want to. But can they trust the winners to treat them well. the winners sent over fliers telling them how they should surrender, and that they would be treated well. But can they believe them?

At some point, they will raise the white flag. Now...who's responsibility is it to make the surrender go smoothly? Who's responsibility is it to guide the loser through the process...to make them feel comfortable enough to lay down their arms and give up? of course...the winners are responsible.

So, in this case, it is the BS's responsibility to guide the WS through the process…to put out that olive branch…to help them through the process. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MEETING THE WS'S NEEDS! It means being there to instruct them on how things should go. It is allowing the WS to question you, to see if you really mean what you have said. It is staying on message, not deviating into meeting any of their WS's needs…thus allowing them to stay on the fence.

I believe Plan B is part of the "war." But at some point, Plan B has to start going into what I call the transition period. The surrender period. This period is very dangerous just like in war, the "enemy" could decide to not surrender, and fire back…wounding you. In this case, it might be a false reconciliation, and they are trying to pull you back onto the fence. But, if you want the"war" to end, there are chances that have to be taken,

When an enemy surrenders, the winner does not just lay down their arms and run across the field to give a big hug to their vanquished foe. No. The winner stands on guard. The winner tries to make the loser comfortable and understand that all will be well if they follow instructions. BUT THEY ALSO LET THE LOSER KNOW THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS!

The WS has no right to negotiate. They have no right to set the terms of surrender. All they can do is refer to the terms of surrender that the BS wrote up (PBL) and follow them. They will try to negotiate. And the BS refers them to the PBL. They will try everything in the book. Again, refer to the PBL.

But eventually, the "enemy" gives up. Now starts the transition period. Neither side trusts the other, especially if there have been "false surrenders" before. But it is up to the BS to guide them through it.

Now, if we are in Plan B and "dark," how are we able to guide them through it? Well, we must go what I call "semi-dark." We stick to Plan B first of all. NO ENs being met (that includes SF, Mimi!…sorry, I was the same way with my wife…even had SF one time during the transition period (in late January)…and it only pushed things off further because I could see my wife wanting to go back on the fence right after that). So, we stick to the heart of Plan B. But like the "minimal contact" that parents have to have during Plan B for the sake of the kids, there should be minimal contact during the surrender period.

Once I was in the surrender or transition period, and right after I screwed up with the SF, I truly went to semi-dark. I would allow her to call and talk to me about her questions. I went with her for a few times to her counseling sessions that I had mandated in my PBL that she start again. At these sessions, I was able to help the counselor get started with her therapy. I would allow her to express her fears, and pain. But I never comforted her in a way to meet her needs. I just pointed her back to the PBL. I pointed her to SAA, and MB. I pointed her to what she saw in my Plan A. And I told her that it was al true, but she was going to have to make it happen.

At first, as she started to make the baby steps, she would call a lot. It is like a baby looking back to see if Dad is there to catch them as they first learn to walk. But as she felt more comfortable, she decided to tell the OM of NC forever…that she was ending it. Once that happened, she turned to me tearfully and very scared…expecting her life to blow up. She had just laid down her arms. And what she got was not what she expected. Basically, she got a hug.

So Mimi, I agree with you. You are now doing well with Steve's advice and I feel you have a good grasp on what he thinks you should do. The house situation is okay. That isnt the problem. Of course, I believe that your husband is in this transition or surrender period. And of course, you don't want to make life altering changes that will affect him right now, and them have him home two weeks from now. So, I believe that you have done the right thing with the house.

But Mimi, be careful. You have had false reconciliations before. While he may WANT to do this, his fear may drive him away again. That is why you must stay tough. Tough love as Dobson puts it. Guide him through this...but don't get close. Don't meet any of his needs. But do let him express himself, let him ask questions Answer him so he can trust you, trust that where he is headed is in fact reality. Remember, he ran to the OW and "thought" that was reality. Now he knows it isnt. But, how can he trust himself enough to know if YOU are fantasy, or reality?

So, minimal contact Semi-dark. Stay tough with him. The house, and your physical attraction for each other, are two biggies that are helping him to move your way. You don't need to help that along by giving in to him.

Keep on with this. Be wary. Be careful. I think we are talking two weeks MAX if you can stick to this.

In His arms.

[ August 01, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Mortarman:

You are an absolute genius!!!!

You have put into words exactly what has been going on with me and WS. I am definitely in the transition period and I am definitely being wary. He keeps asking me questions-when I give him the chance. Reasonable questions that he knows that I will answer yet are pertinent. For example, he asked when my son's first football game is, indicating that he will be going to it. His questions and statements also include direct quotes from my PBL so he must keep it with him and read it. I am then able to refer him back to it. It's amazing!

It's empowering to me because I know exactly what is going on. I have a strategy. He does not.

I've been trying to let you guys know that I am being very careful and wary. It is a real tricky and delicate situation.

More later. Have to work.

[ August 01, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

First of all, stick with the plan. I am with you and hope that this progress continues to the resolution you (and us) have all been waiting for. I went back and read nearly all of your thread and the distance that has been covered has been amazing. I'm not so sure mine will end the same way but I will bring that up on my thread.

Secondly, you are right, MM is masterful at these concepts and the way he uses analogies etc.. to describe things really brings it to a easily understood plan to grasp and put into action. It is our emotions, like mine the other day, that screw it up. If there was only a switch to turn them off and on.

Anyway, take care, good luck, and I'm thinking of you. NW

How's it feel to have the "power" now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In His arms.

NW,

Believe me...I KNOW what you are talking about with the emotions thing. My emotions continue to this day to get me into trouble. And then I beat myself up later for doing what I KNOW isnt right and not helpful.

So, dont beat yourself up. As I tell myself after screwing up..."Just do better."

Mimi

you are getting great advice and support here right now. This is a difficult time for you, and it is 'exciting' for the people here because they can see how close you are. That combination may lead to things that seem/are judgemental being posted here. If I have been among those who have overstepped the line, please accept an apology. We care and want you to continue your great progress.

Hang in there.

S.

MM, you do such a beautiful job of laying it all out! Mimi, hang in there, I am rooting for you and I know it will all come through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Guys,

I have my ups and downs. I resent having to go through this moving process alone. I become fearful that he has stalled me in the process of moving on with my life while I sit around in the castle. However, I really wasn't ready to move on.

MM is so on target though about what seems to be going on right now. It is empowering to have knowledge of the process. As I look back WH has asked lots of questions in our MINIMAL CONTACT to which I given simple answers. I did not realize what was going on until MM brought this to my attention. Given the the high EN of physical attraction to him: WH: "How often are you working out?" Me: Mostly everyday. WH: "I can tell. You sure look good." I know OW has picked up weight. So that is probably an issue. He's also asked lots of questions about son's behavior which was an issue for him. Is he helping out around the house? Is he staying out late? The questions were asked in an offhand manner like he was just generally interested so I did not realize their significance.

Onward with packing....

[ August 02, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

How is the packing going Mimi?

My house looks like a war zone.

Well, I am in a war according to MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WS is taking BABY STEPS as MM predicted but still has not done NC letter.

He called on Voice Mail to say that he has his Voice Mail turned back on. If you guys remember, I've been asking for this since the beginning of PLAN B. He also went over to visit my grandparents, who are extremely important to me. He has not seen them in months. They have been asking repeatedly about where he is. They are in their 90s. I am their caretaker.

I have felt good about all my accomplishments in completing the move on my own.

Will keep you posted.

[ August 04, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I have been super busy trying to pack up and move.

I have been maintaining minimal contact with WS. He seems to be taking BABY STEPS.

He has turned his Voice Mail back on which has been a major issue for me since he left in May.

He is giving August 15th as the magic date when he will deliver the NC Letter and wants to go away that weekend. I'm not sure what is so important about the 15th. Why not today? I keep repeating the simple phrase of "Get rid of her" as I have been instructed. He has asked my help with writing the letter. I think I'm supposed to be in on his planning with this but have not responded YEA of NAY. I told him to write it. That's what's most important. He seems to be continuing to panic about my move and seems motivated to want to move into the house with me which seems to be contributing to his motivation to end things. I have been so overwhelmed with the moving details to get involved in his drama.

WS is using Steve Harley's exact words. WS says: I have my PRIDE. I got myself into this mess and have to get out of it MY WAY . He must have said this to Steve in January and is SAYING the same thing now.

I move tomorrow.

Stay strong Mimi! You sound very close to be a success story and moving into recovery. I suspect that the Aug 15 date thing is just a form of your H maintaining some control over what he does. But the most importatnt thing will be that it happens.

I moving too, on Saturday. I have been doing some packing and running into many memories. It is hard.
NW

Happy Moving, Everyone.

At the risk of hijacking, let me say it is a horrible nite. Discovered that H has established a secret email address for the OW to contact him, AND that she is putting in place plans for the two of them to take a trip. Major pain, major tears, how long can one continue this?

Mimi, hang in, gal. You are SOOOOOO close. I am hanging on to your every move. You are an encouragement to the rest of us.

I know you will be busy, but will look for you on the weekend.

ISG

ISGirl, pox that trip! if I'd found the emails on their trip plan, I can guarantee he'd never have made it out of our drive way! I would have disabled cars, phones, and held him at gun point. LOL But I mean it. I would have been so angry I'd have killed to keep him from fulfilling plans with her! But I wouldn't have had to kill, I'd just have gotten his airline ticket hid in his truck and torn it to shreds! He could have walked to call cab, but he wouldn't have gotten to airport which is 50 miles away. LOL
Do what you have to do to keep him from completing this plan!
In fact, one of my other thoughts was I would have filed divorce and put his papers in with his airline ticket for him to find first! Along with their emails to prove why.
I am so sick of hearing how these UH lie, cheat, steal, deceive. It's high time they had to face the music before they have their fun. Not after when they can say sorry, because they're not! They have already gotten what they want so it's impossible to feel sorry then other than getting caught.
Um, send your H over to my house. I can handle him in 5 secs. flat!
Any BS here thought of a 9mm for the jerks? Make it hollow points too!
LouLou

Some more positive steps....

WS called 16 year old son today. Son told me tonight, thinking that I told WS to call which I didn't. WS told son: "I know this is hard for you. Hang in there." Asked him about football practice. He hasn't talked to son since June. He has been helping out 20 year old with getting car fixed after wreck.

The weekend will be hard for me again because he is still with the OW. I don't think their contact is as much.

I'll only believe my WS when it really happens. He seems to want to do right. But this is an addiction. I liken it to when I knew smoking was bad for me but I couldn't stop until I finally made up my mind to do it despite how hard I knew the withdrawal would be.

Meanwhile, onward with the packing.

Hang in there guys. This is rough for us!!!

[ August 07, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I am glad you found a house you like and are moving forward! I predict it won't be much longer until your DH breaks things off and starts planning to come home.

I hope your boy is doing well. It is so hard on teenagers!

New Branch,

Please see my thread "Plan B x 2..." and you'll see more info on the planned trip.

BTW, I won't have any opportunity to interfere with the trip. H doesn't live here, only works here. OW has made all the plans, has all the tix, etc.

But pop on over to the other thread and read more. He's going to meet her family!!!!!!!!!!!11

mimi...

I agree with you NOT assisting with writing the no contact letter..

Too many times it just feeds in to continued contact between the WS and OP as they hash out the BS's input in too the letter ..

Often spun in to riduculous musings of how controlling and short leashed the BS is...AS IF

And you don't need a no contact letter between you and the OW>..you already are in no contact with her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No contact with the OP is not some out-there unrealistic demand...it is the most reasonable thing with a WS that WANTS to reconcile...

stay out of that part...be above it...
you have said you point on it..continue to reinforce and move on..

ARK

Mimi,

Doesn't WS have a copy of SAA? Can't you refer him to SAA for an example of a no contact letter?

I do think it is good for WS to have the Harley example. On their own they don't have much of a clue how to write a no contact letter. We never ended up sending my WS's, but he did write one and showing him the SAA example was helpful.

hope the move is going well...

One thing I wanted to say-

I know that you don't want to date. I also know that MB is against the idea of dating while separated and there are valid ideas for that.

I think your WS is very comfortable with you sitting tight and waiting for him. Maybe the new house will jolt him out of his complacency and he will break off with OW to join you there and mark his turf. Or maybe not.

I could be wrong, and I don't advise dating per se, but I think that your WS needs to feel a little worried that while he is off with OW, you are after all, an attractive female who may be subject to male attention. If he feels very secure that you are waiting for him, he will take his sweet time.

When my H was thinking about leaving, I made it clear that if he left, I would not be sitting at home on Saturday nights twiddling my thumbs. I told him that he was the man I wanted to be with, but if he wanted to be with someone else, I would try to carry on (despite the heartbreak). After all, isn't that a consequence? If he did divorce me, he would have to contend with the fact that I might meet another man, and his kids might have a step father at some point.

A girlfriend invited me to go out to a disco with her (this was when the A was in full swing)- I got all dolled up and went out. It freaked my H out! He had it planned that he would spend his summer "exploring OW" and figured I would twiddle my thumbs until he got back. A big motivator (among many) for him in breaking things off with OW was he was terrified another man would move in on his turf while he was away and he didn't want to risk that happening.

That was my experience. I never dated, but I made it clear that if WS was off with OW, I would be out and about. I should add that my WS is a very jealous man. His ego could not have handled me having an affair- it's lucky that I was not the WS, I think he would have been destroyed by it.

The key is to stimulate a little jealousy without making your WS think that you are actively looking for someone. In the beginning of the A, they can use that to justify their behavior "She doesn't care about me, she'll easily find another guy, so I should follow my love to OW".

However, after a long period of time of fence sitting, the BS can commmunicate "I am waiting for you, and I believe in our marriage, but it is lonely so I need to go out and keep busy while you are with OW. And gee, I met a bunch of nice people the other day..." Let your WS's mind fill in the blanks.

I would try to shake up your WSs world a bit without necessarily dating. For example, if you meet a man at an event somewhere mention it to WS. Let him worry that you might date the guy, or that the guy might hit on you. He might even say "Is this guy hitting on you?" and you innocently say, "no, he was just being friendly, knowing I was on my own... I wouldn't be interested in him, after all I am married..."

This may not work for you as a concept Mimi and if so I completely understand it. I am just sharing my own experience... others may find that my personal tactic does not work for them, and I do believe each one of us needs to customize our tactics to our own personality and situation.

Hey guys,

Come by and say hello even though I don't have much drama right now. I still need to hear from you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Are you doing ok? How is the packing going?

Hey, my DH has come up with a new cute Man trick that I thought I would share. He HATES capri pants on women. So, when I asked him if my "butt looks fat" in these pants, to my shock, he said YES! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I figured out that he is telling me I look fat so I won't wear them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> MEN!

Hola Mimi .... don't be lonely, we're here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And Mel, yanno, I love those capri pants. I have several pairs. And *I KNOW* your butt does NOT look big in them.

Hey, a thought ... are you supposed to NOT wear them in that you would then be meeting your DH's EN of "NO CAPRI PANTS"? Hmmmm, I wonder ....

Steve Harley???? What say you?

Lv,
Jo

Hi, Not much drama here either.
Just had all my kids here for dinner, a rare treat for me. 16 yr. old S treated us to Lobsters! 18 yr. old S came for it, Of course! WH called while they were all here! I answered, he just asked for 12 yr.old S to ask about thursdays Yankee Game and to get a phone # of friend taking him to Red Sox tomorrow. I guess he wants to try to hook up outside Fenway to give him some $. He talked to each of the boys but did not ask for 4 yr. old D.
I wish I knew what goes on in that man's head!
I wonder if he is really happy?

I'm very busy packing and unpacking. But I am nesting. I love it. Plus, I love my house. It is so beautiful and so fun to decorate. It has really given me a needed lift.

I had a long talk today with a FWH, husband of a friend of mine. I had not been aware that they had had that problem. It was very interesting. He talked about mid-life crisis, seemed to have my WH down to a tee. Laughed when I showed him the clothes still in the closet. FWH said: "He always planned on coming back home; you got out there too far when you sold the house and he had to reel you back in." This is the same Steve Harley theory. FWH also said that WS is probably trying to get OW to break up with him to lessen the drama of him doing the breakup. FWH predicts the OW is being very demanding now; thus, it's no longer any "fun" for WH. She wants to go out,bring her daughter over to the condo, him to make a commitment, etc. So what WS is probably doing now is saying No to her demands and she is pouting.

So, I confess. I checked it out and did a driveby. She does seem to be home tonight. All lights on, her car in the driveway. It was just curiosity, guys. I'm not obsessing about it. I promise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Onward with packing/unpacking.

By the way, Mel, I wore capris on the day of my office encounter. WS is a butt man and it is one of my best body features. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 09, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Well, Mimi, if he wants her to do the breakup, why not give her a reason? Gee, couldn't he be seen loving on you, hugging, kissing, having a nice romantic dinner for two at his condo?
Of course, this doesnt' fit with the no contact theory of plan B?
I'd think all he has to do is allow her to see him two timing her and it would hit the fan!
Or he could have a bouquet of flowers ready to deliver personally, with the card attached and let her see them standing in his home?
Oops, he could turn red faced and say, sorry you saw those. I'm sure she'd think they were for her and rush to see the card? LOL I'm so dirty minded!
there must be a zillion ways for him to turn her off by allowing her to find him coming on to you!
Too bad Steve won't allow this. You could certainly put the bug in H ear?
Heck, even if you snuck over and knew she'd drive by, you could act like you were just leaving from an overnight stay? Do you know here schedule? When she drives by or is out? your hair must be mussed and all dreamy look on face too. LOL wear something very sexy also! Gosh, I'm daydreaming here on revenge!
LouLou

Hi Mimi - Seems you got your computer unpacked real quick, LOL! Is this your first night in your new house? Just curious, what did you do with WH's condo furniture, move it or leave it? Is your youngest son with you, or still away? How's he doing? And the older one?

It's interesting what the FWH friend of yours said. Your WH left his clothes because he always knew he'd be back. Then you rocked his world by selling the house, so he had to re-connect with you before you got too far away. One of the WS's that posts here said the same thing, leaving stuff at the house keeps the connection, a safety net for returning, and panic sets in when the BS seems to be moving on. My WH left a lot of his stuff here, too. He took his golf clubs, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi, it seems that your WH is close to ending his A. Have you thought about what your conditions for his return are? Obviously NC with OW, but, for example, will you suggest that he live separately from you until you and he have a chance to work out some of your issues? My IC suggested that, I think it would be a good idea in my case. It's good to read others' posts about their recoveries, things to watch for, awkward moments, etc. I hope you get there, Mimi. Just be sure to keep writing here, OK?

Well, good night, sweet dreams in you new home.

Lablady

Hi Mimi

Any news or developments?

S.

I'm more than 90% sure that something is going to happen within the next couple of weeks.

WS is making very significant baby steps like leaving stuff for me from his condo such as plants/cleaning supplies at the back door of my new house. Wants me to go look at the "perfect diamond" at the jewelry store (Colby Bryant syndrome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )"for our new beginning, it will mean a lot", he says. I haven't done that; I say he has to "get rid of her first" before thinking about the jewelry. He says that "sh%#^$& is going to hit the fan" real soon; son and I need to be on our guard. Says he's "resolved" this time to "end it for good"; that he had to really be "out there" to learn. Wants me to "believe" him. I say, "I'll believe it when I see it" and that's how I really feel at this point.

When and if he ends it, I predict that she will be very upset. She thought she had it made. Big-time man in the community with financial stability; thought she would be the new "wifey".

I mostly "listen" in very minimal phone conversations, trying to make sure not to meet ENs but continuing to provide the "olive branch". He does seem different, more repentant than last time. However, I'll believe it when I see it.

To those who have asked, he will need to come live with me once there is NC. He cannot be provided with the temptation to return to the condo to meet with her. It's their love nest, cave shutting them off from the rest of the world. I predict some sick stuff went on in there. He calls it his "albatross". I am insisting that the condo be rented. He supposedly has gotten a rental agreement form and is trying to lease the condo. That's why he is clearing it out.

I'm proceeding with my unpacking. What a job! I'm exhausted!

[ August 14, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

You are about to be another MB success story. You are doing great!!

Good job on balancing not meeting ENs while at the same time giving the olive branch (what I call the transition period).

Stick to your guns. I see probably three weeks, if he gets the condo rented. If he does, then the end of the month, he will be out of there.

Be ready though. Start gearing up for the recovery. This recovery stuff is harder than Plan A & B. Start learning about that process.
Remember, it isnt JUST NC with OW. It is also WH agreeing to working on the relationship, doing the 4 things the Harleys talk about, seeing a counselor, etc. The will be a lot of hard work, and it will be much easier if both of you are working at it together.

Like I said...hang tough. He is starting to surrender, it appears. But until he does, as you put it, then nothing has changed. But I think for you, this nightmare is now coming to an end.

In His arms.

A major point to consider prior to begining recovery ... HE gets a complete as possible STD check.

Otherwise, no go.

I strongly urge you to make this one of your cement-firm not gonna return until this is complete boundaries.

The humiliation of doing this be damned.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Mimi, glad things are moving right along. I thought deadline was Aug. 15th? So I've been reading and watching here.
Is he trying to lease or rent out condo himself? Or couldn't the property manager do it there for him?
That way he could walk sooner!
Makes no difference where he is, he can answer phone and show it by appt?
And you got good advice about the STD testing. for both of you right away!
God bless and keep on keeping on. LouLOu

Of course, he's changed the date until after Thursday. Says he has to do a sales presentation to a group that OW supposedly knows about and supposedly does not want a scene.

Also, wants to be seen in public together at son's first football game tonight. He says for son's sake,of course. Son has been clear and direct about wanting and needing to see parents together in the stands rooting for him. Haven't made up my mind about this.

[ August 15, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I thinking of you Mimi, things are looking good for you. NW

I was invited to the CONDO!!!!

I went.

I don't care. Go ahead and beat me over the head. I could not pass this up. This was a big move. I had to see the scene of action for myself. It was VERY INTERESTING!!!! WS knows me well. This was a piece of the puzzle that I was dying to get filled it. There was always so much mystique about this CONDO!!! I did not want this to end without having the chance to visit. It was like he wanted to make it real for me. Or, was he trying to put me in the place where she has been in order to make it real for him?? Very interesting. I have not figured this all out. What do you guys think? This is WS' desperation at trying to convince me that he is sincere this time although he has not "gotten rid of her" COMPLETELY.

I can certainly see why PLAN B worked--while it lasted. (I'm such a failure at it.) There are no feminine touches, no hominess. The only furniture is the bedroom suite. Appropriate, I guess. So OW did not put her mark on the place? There's no sign of her whatsoever. No clothes in the drawers, in the closets, nothing. Maybe he cleared her stuff out before I came. It's a depressing place to me with just the bare necessities of life. No wonder he became panicked when he lost his HOME.

Mimi, you went, you saw. Now drop contact with him completely until he does this with OW.
He's had time, more than enough. There is not a big deal or secret in getting rid of people. It's simply a matter of saying, "You are history to me and I never want to see or hear from you again"!
I am happy for your move and your new home.
Your plan has done well, but it's not over until it's over. And he seems to be procrastinating in the worst way!
It sure didn't take him weeks or months to move out of his home with you did it?
he has already gone beyond is promise of Aug 15th!
I am somewhat concerned at his lagging and stalling this process. In fact, it gives me a very bad gut feeling to say the least.
How you and others endure the waiting is beyond me. I commend you all for that.
But enough is enough, and are you doing this on his terms? The ending it should be on your terms now!
Others are going to flame me, I know. But I'm just speaking for myself.
He'd have 48 hours now and his choice would be final. If he's too afraid to face her, then go with him and hear him tell her she's done with!
BTW, vacant properties sell everyday so if he's done with OW, why stay in condo now? Absence of her things is not proof of anything. There is always her home to visit!
Sorry, but I guess I'm on a tangent tonight. I just hate the wishy washy unfaithful who keep everything hanging in mid air and can't make a move to finalize it.
He gives you a date and hope things are going to be over with, then he goes past the due date and still has not written her off?
LouLou

New Branch:

You are right about the stalling.

I probably won't do the 48 hr. ultimatum but will probably go dark.

What's your bad gut feeling?

~Miss Mimi~

My gut feeling is this ....

Mimi is leaving out some significant elements of the "visiting the condo" story.

What was the text and the tone of the "invitation"?

What part of you said "OK, I'll go see your condo."?

How did you arrive at the location?

How did you depart?

Did viewing their sexual meeting bed provide you with anything valuable?

Mimi ..... here's one of my suspicions about this event ..... and I am probably wrong .... but here goes....

You are unconsciously shopping for sufficient discusting "love nest" details which will enable you to dislike your WH enough to not care so much. This was like rubbing lemon juice onto your cuts ..... trying to convince yourself that the person who cut you needs to be avoided.

Whatever his motivations are for doing this .... quien sabe? He's in a fog.

YOUR motivations are MUCH more interesting.

I imagine that many OW often have real curiosity and interest in visiting the MM's bedroom that he shares with his wife. I've read those types of desires expressed by OWs on OW message boards. They are curious about MM's life with his W. They look at her bathroom and kitchen, to scope out the competition.

You viewed their sexual bed Mimi ..... now ask yourself what purpose did doing this serve? It did serve some need of yours.... what was it?

Do you feel healed by this in some way?
Vindicated?
Motivated?
What were you going in .... and what are you going out?

I wonder about the message you gave your H doing this..... not the spoken message, but the subtle non-verbal message. How does he see your boundaries now Mimi? You viewed their sexual bed, and now you are in a somewhat voyueristic (sp?) position of THEIR relationship.

Hope you are OK. Whatever you do .... think about your subliminal message ..... and what that message says about you and your integrity.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I think I've gotten caught in his confusion/craziness. This is all very weird. I'm pulling myself out it back into the world of sanity. Thank God for this forum.

One thought. I feel more pity for him like he must have really lost it or is losing it. I feel like the more stable person, knowing that he must not have deliberately, in his right mind, chosen this life. A part of me thinks that he wants my help out of it, to let me see how low he really sank. That has been my role in his life as a rescuer, caretaker. I had stopped playing that role. He thought OW could do it. She failed. I have to ask myself do I want to do that again. The answer is probably yes because that was what I knew coming into the marriage 27 years ago. In turn, he takes care of me in a way nobody else can.

Second thought. I no longer feel competitive with her. I did not feel it when I was there and no longer feel it now. She is not on my level. It's so clear that we are like apples vs. oranges. Pep, I wanted validation of this. I'm not having any strong feelings about the whole situation for some reason. My thought is: "Is that all it was to this condo?" I had built it up in my mind like it was utopia when really he was almost "homeless".

My guess is that he is moving everything out of the condo, prior to his vacating it and they are shacking up at her place --which is really shabby. I'm living in a mansion, really, in comparison to that dump. She probably told him that she was not coming back over there anymore without the furniture from me or some commitment. Who knows, like you said, in that fog mind of his?? He claims to have A PLAN.

Boundaries? We have a codependent relationship. Isn't he attempting to reestablish the status quo?? I am him, he is me. I know, YUK!!!

Actually I'm feeling fine. WHAT'S GOING ON????

[ August 17, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

By the Way,

You are right, Pep. There are parts of the story that I left out. I'm too embarassed to tell, you guys.

However, nothing happened on the bed.

Also, I did not sneak in or sneak out.

Mimi, you ask what my gut feelings were. Please understand I don't say them to hurt you, in fact, this guy makes me angry as hell with the games he's playing. And he is still playing games with your life and emotions. And I hate seeing good people hurt!
That said, here it is!
My gut says he's no closer to ending it now than he was when he came home and you two took your trip together. He played you then and he's playing you now!
Sorry, but it doesn't take a nuclear explosion to get rid of someone if you want to!
Her feelings shouldn't matter a tinkers damn to him if he wants his marriage to you and his family.
Quite simple really. If you had an intruder in your home, would you fiddle around taking time to not hurt their feelings before shoving a gun in their face and ordering them out! Not me!
She's an intruder and there by his permission!
Your feelings obviously don't mean two cents in the way he's handling this.
I don't buy the scare tactics and being afraid of what she might do. He's trying to build a blackmail type of scene here, and pretend he's protecting you and family.
The only people he's protecting is her and his own A-- so they can continue in a different way to throw you off the trail.
I'll say one thing for you. You are to be commended for your love and patience in all this because I could never be that good a person.
What I expect from my H and marriage is to see him chop his OW out of life in a nano second. And he did.
He had only two choices, her or me. And he wasn't going to get an unlimited time to make up his mind either.
Your H still Has full control! I'd not only go dark, I'd tell him sorry, you had every chance and months of playing this game, now stick with your condo and OW because I've decided to move on with my life where I won't bear hurt anymore.
If her feelings matter most, then that is where he should stay for good!
He has convinced you it's over with her, that he is going to rebuild with you, but he hasn't done a damn thing about it, has he? Furniture, clothes don't mean a thing.
Her A-- out of his life for good is what counts!
He can pick up the phone, call her, and let you hear him tell her she's history, he doesn't love her, love you and is not going to have her in his life ever again!
Then tell her don't call, don't write and don't stalk me or I'll put the authorities on you for harrassment!
End of story. LouLou

Lou,

Try to be understanding of who I am. I am not like you. I'm not at a place where I want to go on with my life without him. I need to get there maybe and- might even be moving in that direction- but I'm certainly not there today.

I've been with him since I was 18 and I am now almost 50 years old. He's been the primary focus in my life all this time other than my work and my children. It makes a difference, I have to admit, in who I am.

I've realized in all this that I have never really established a sense of independence and don't get much good feelings from it. I know it's what I'm supposed to value and want. Other women, like you, tell me about it. I've tried it out these few months and I have not liked it at all, dealing with the world on my own. Sometimes, I think, I would even look for another man to take care of me if my WH doesn't. It has to do with unresolved childhood issues with my father, who is now deceased. That's a LONG STORY!!!

[ August 17, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, I apologize for being so blunt in earlier post. That was not right.
I guess I just admire how hard you've tried and your tenacity in holding in there through some very rough times.
Truthfully, a divorce would be horrible for me. I have been with my H for 31 yrs and I'd feel lost.
He has been the true happiness in my lifetime, considering the past before I knew him. I, too, came from a very dysfunctional family with divorce, and many other hurts from childhood on.
I think realizing what he could do knowing how much he meant to me is why I have developed a new attitude so I never have to say I can't live without him!
The fact is, though I may not have realized at the time, that I down deep knew he loved me enough to give him ultimatums. Because I really felt he would choose me.
But if he hadn't, I'd survive. And no, I wouldn't stay single at all. I do need someone in my life to love, protect and fill my EN's.
I just know I couldn't ever hang in like some of you have because it would degrade me beyond feeling special ever again to him.
We all have different needs and yes, childhood experiences really do effect us throughout life.
Again, I apologize, but I think I went off because I really do care about you and your feelings. I might say I'm almost as frustrated as you, but that wouldn't be possible at all as you're in the situation.
Forgive me for saying I'd just like to punch his lights out! LOL
He better not let you down this time or a whole lot of strangers are not going to like him at all!
The fact that he is so important to you, you need him to feel whole is even worse for you, I know.
WE do start to feel a kindred spirit with others here.
We're all waiting with hope for a grand announcement from you that it's finally over and your future is looking wonderful together.
Blessings and please forgive me. LouLou

Mimi, the suspense of all this is killing me, I can't imagine what it is doing to you!!
I too can't imagine going forward with my life without WH. I try, and when people say, you don't need him, I say, I know, but I want him.
But really it's both, I need and want him. I've been the caretaker pretty much myself also, I'm having a hard time imagining WH "taking care" of OW. He can't even organize the bills to pay, I think he's still working out of a paper bag! for God's sake.
His complaint has been that I didn't bring in enough income, well the way I look at it, that's all he had to do, I pretty much took care of everything else and I mean everything.
Sometimes I think that everyone's picture of WH as such a wonderful father (pre-A) was mostly due in part from my making it easy for him. Now that he's on his own, he doesn't seem to have a clue and I'm able to look back with more clarity.
Anyways, hang in there, I know the intimacy probably felt great after all this time, man, what I wouldn't give for that opportunity, but you're just so close, I'd hate to see your WH cake eat much longer.
Patience, definately not my strong suit, but you gotta do it!

A couple of good things:

When WS went to visit my grandparents, their caretaker confronted him: "Are you home yet?; this time are going to stay?" This is a woman who told me to leave him and don't look back. She said she felt my WS was sincere about returning home, that something "scared" him "out there" and I will have a hard time getting him to leave even if I wanted him to leave when he comes back this time. This was her opinion after talking to him.

WS came to the football game Friday night and stayed for the whole game, not having to rush back to OW. Last year he only came to a couple of games, made an excuse and left at half-time. Would come home late. Now I know why.

He definitely has the hots for me. There was electricity at the game, giving me that look, resulting in the condo yesterday. He had tried every idea he could think of to get with me on Saturday. Asking me to the condo worked.

After Lou's post, I broke down and called him today. I just had to get a sense of whether he is "playing games" with me. He called me back right away after being able to leave a messsage on his NEW VOICE MAIL. I registered that he sounded like his old self, not foggy. He was concerned about my emotionality. I must have sounded like giving up which is how I was feeling really. I thought I had been fooled again and maybe I have. He says, "Are you sure you are all right? I'm so sorry about all of this." I did not LB but I was firm about NO GAMES, GET RID OF HER QUICK OR NO MIMI, etc. He seemed desperate to let me know that we're talking a week to two weeks. He said that he wanted to let me see, among other things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , that he had cleared out the condo, that it was no longer their love nest, that there are no traces of her there, that he is comfortable about sharing all aspects of his life with me. He did leave me free to roam the place. He says that there is more STUFF that he has to finish, more stuff that he has to get from her. Their relationship has been long-term, about two years. I just have to go with my gut. I think it's imminent. We'll just have to see...

"More stuff he has to get from her"

This is a stupid remark he made. I don't believe him.

What "stuff' could possibly be more important than you and your feelings and your marriage?

Fogese is so damn stupid, it's really hard to hear it without feeling nauseous.

Remember Mimi .... this is not not just about him ending the A .... it's about him becoming a better husband .... even if he came home today .... he's still acting stupid.

"As is".... he'd make you unhappy. He needs to do better than this.

Hold the line Mimi. YOUR integrity depends on your loving boundaries.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Pep

[ August 17, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Mimi, couple more weeks. Just pay attention and see if he's going to actually go through with it this time. Or how many more couple more weeks will he need?
That's exactly what I meant by the game playing.
Not to hurt you, but enough is enough out of him.
What could he possibly have left with her that is so important?
What could possibly be holding up the NC letter he was going to write and I believe you should help and see it sent to her.
Anyhow, well, you have a couple more weeks which puts it into Sept. So that's not so far off.
Hang in. LEN

Actually, Pep, he might not fit your textbook definition of the perfect person or husband but the statements about the "stuff" is typical him before the A. Hard to explain if you don't really know a person. It's hard to communicate everything in these square boxes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I might get too discouraged and depressed if I stay on here. That's what happened to me yesterday. I have to keep going and be somewhat optimistic.

Oh Mimi,
please don't get discouraged, not now! You know how it is here, everyone is just looking out for your best interest and it can get frustrating for those of us who have been following for so long and have grown fond of you. NO one wants to see you hurting for one more minute than you have to.
But you are right, you know your WH better than anyone and I believe you are working him, just don't let him work you back!
Did you ever think you would be at this point? No, probably not, it seemed hopeless at times didn't it? Well now that you almost have what you have worked so hard and patiently(and I use that word loosely LOL) for, you've got to remain strong until WH is back to being H!
Thinking of You,
Shugah

Shugah,

You are right. To come this far, to where I never thought I would be, and then to find that my support group may think this is only baby steps!!

My WS has looked me straight in the face and said: "Face it, it's over!!! He wrote me a note saying, "I don't love you anymore". He acted like he almost hated me all of last year and I felt that there was nothing that I could do. For him to be acting like himself again and like he loves me again is almost a miracle.

I'd rather believe him and be fooled I think. Hopefully, you guys will be around to help pick up the pieces.

I'm just being human and honest with you. I'm trying not to run away from the forum like I did before.

Mimi

glad you posted that reply before I got ready for mine! I was about to give you a small poke with the 2x4!

People here do have your best interest at heart, but bear in mind that most of us are in, or have been in similar situations, so we may be a little blunt at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Also, as MM has said, you are closer to the PRIZE than probably anyone else here at the moment. We want to see you grab it, not drop it and have to go crawling round the floor to pick it up again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You want my honest opinion - based on obviously very constrained persepective we can get online without knowing your H - I think you erred by going to the condo - but guess what - its not necessarily a big deal - only becomes one if you make it.

Think of it like this - you go on a diet. All goes well, then one day you give into temptation and have an ice cream. Is all the good work gone? Nope, as long as you get back on the wagon and keep going, it is pretty insignificant. You have been and continue to make great progress that inspires those of us at an earlier stage in the game than yourself. Remember the Harley principles, keep talking to your consellor, keep talking here, and remember that irrespective of HOW something is said here, the message is still one of support and encouragement.

Keep up the good work.

S.

Mimi

No way do I come close to thinking your H needs to be "perfect person or husband" before you take him back.

But, I do know this ....

Recovery is hard Mimi. Maybe more emotionally difficult than Plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

After the initial joy of having your H back in your home .... there will come a reckoning within your heart. You will come to question if he is "worth" all the hurt that you'll feel WHILE WORKING THE RECOVERY!

Recovery is at least 2 years. Perhaps longer, perhaps shorter.

The healthier your H is when he joins you in recovery, the less you'll be confused by his confusion.

To maximize recovery .... keep your Plan B boundaries healthy.

Sorry to offend you Mimi. I apologize for my insensitivity.

Pep

Pep:

You are on target! My WH has a long way to go. And so do I. Recovery will be extremely difficult for us. I guess, one step at the time. We are not even there YET.

Today, I read over my notes from my last Steve Harley session.

He said, "WS" is trying to "finagle himself out of this. He knows that it is not working for him. You will have to sit back in your holding pattern and wait him out. He's a proud man who has to do it his way".

OK, Steve. I was trying to listen to you.

I've been trying to listen to all of you.

Hang in there with me.

Howdy Mimi! Have you talked to Steve again recently?

Hi Mel:

I wondered where you have been. Probably disappointed in me.

I have to save Steve for the big stuff-quite expensive. I know what he would say about my latest ventures.

I still say I just had to see that condo. It's hard to explain how important that was to me. I'm so glad I did. Regardless of the cost it was worth it to me.

Nothing new is happening with me.

I'm such a spoiled brat. I don't like being on the second page. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I meant to ask you what was going on with you in my earlier reply on my post but forgot. Now that I know I'll just help keep you on the top of the page. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

NW

I know actions speak louder than words but I did get this Voice Mail Message after a FEW DAYS of DARKNESS:

(His voice breaking as if tearful):
"Hi, my name. I just wanted to call to say Good Morning and to tell you that I love you. Everything is going to be great. We're going to have a great life after all this bull we have gone through. These challenges were for a reason I'm sure. I just don't know why. I will be talking to you soon. Bye."

Mimi please resist the urge to respond to him because if you do then you will be taking the hurt away from him. His hurt needs to reach critical mass so that he can finally leave the OW for good, and if you talk to him then this will not happen. Remain in the dark until his actions prove to you that he has finally reached the point of ending all contact with the OW forever and is willing to follow a marital recovery plan along the MB principles.

As usual, Coffeeman is right on the money.

Stay Dark until he breaks.

In His arms.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is going on with him and the OW at this point? He's cleared her out of the condo. Is she demanding for him to come live with her in the ghetto life?

I know I really shouldn't care but I am wondering.

Mimi, Please listen to TMCM. I have kept up with your posts from the very first one and I have been in many of the situations that you have been and are in right now. I did not know about MB's site until after the A was over for my FWH and without the right guidance and advice,I made some major mistakes that has caused our recovery to be very difficult for me and almost unbearable at times.By the grace of God and this forum,we are doing good,now.
The one thing I must tell you is that TMCM is absolutely on the mark about what he tells you.

TMCM.........
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mimi please resist the urge to respond to him because if you do then you will be taking the hurt away from him. His hurt needs to reach critical mass so that he can finally leave the OW for good, and if you talk to him then this will not happen. Remain in the dark until his actions prove to you that he has finally reached the point of ending all contact with the OW forever and is willing to follow a marital recovery plan along the MB principles.
<hr /></blockquote>Please follow this advice. Please.I wish I had known this.Oh,how I wish I had known this.I helped my FWH to avoid his pain and I wish a thousand times over that I had known not to do it.In my love for him and my desire to have him back, I was too good,as Pepperband explained to me,and I have paid the consequences.
You have done quiet well following what the seasoned posters have told you,with an occasional detour,but in all,you have done great. Please do not mess up now.
Pepperband says that recovery is difficult and it is. Recovery has been the part that the people here have helped me with and as I have wondered why some of the well seasoned ones,like TMCM, did not post to me, I now realize that it was too late for some of their advice to me.The A was over and I had already taken H back with all of the mistakes included,such as no NC and he worked with her. I was not fortunate enough to know about this site during the A. I flew by the seat of my pants(which had holes in them at the time. Not good for flying!)and made mistakes as the result of my emotions and deep love for my H at the time.When one is experiencing the pain and devastation of betrayal,feelings and emotions often lead them in the wrong direction.I did a lot of things right during the time,too but I could have saved myself a lot of agony if I had the advice of this site,this forum along with my own efforts.
It is all hind sight now for me. It is the present and the future for you,Mimi.
My FWH called me every day for weeks,30 minutes before he would leave work and tell me he was coming back...... just not right now. I now realize that he was just making sure I was at home and too far away to be there to follow him and see where he was going! I looked forward to those calls. He would send me emails saying he knew it sounded hollow but he loved me.He would thank me for hanging in there and loving him...assuring me he would come home soon.... just not right now. He was with the FOW beore and after every one of those calls. He emailed her as well. He would come to the house and bring me flowers,hug me,at times have dinner with me........and then he would go spend the night with the FOW.On and On and on.I did not know for sure that he was still with the FOW.
I know what it is like to love your H and want your M and R back so much that you do these crazy things but I had noone to tell me any different. You do.Please listen.I am pulling and praying for you to have your H back and without the OW. Recovery is hard,Mimi.There are things that can make it even more difficult.Again.Please listen to TMCM,Pepperband and others who KNOW what they are telling you. Dr. Harley has done a wonderful thing by having this site and offering his advice and expertise.He offers this forum for additional input and you are so fortunate to have found it early.My thoughts are with you as I continue to read. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> kk

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
Today, I read over my notes from my last Steve Harley session.

He said, "WS" is trying to "finagle himself out of this. He knows that it is not working for him. You will have to sit back in your holding pattern and wait him out. He's a proud man who has to do it his way".

OK, Steve. I was trying to listen to you.

I've been trying to listen to all of you.

Hang in there with me.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Mimi,

Listen to Steve, even when your H is crying and asking to come home. I had to listen to the WS and OW begging me to send the WS home. It certainly was hard to hear but I could not lose my ground.

The WS eventually did come home. Even then it was too early. The addiction is strong. Most BS can not fanthom the extent. That is why false recoveries happen.

So when should you resume contact? IMHO, when he can convincingly show you and prove to you that he is worth having back.

For now, I recommend you learn to shrug your shoulders a bit. It helps letting his crocodile tears slide off your shoulders until the real ones meant for your benefit not his come out of his heart and into yours.

Of course, Steve w/b the better analyst to help guide you.

take care,
L.

King's Kid:

Thanks so much for your loving post. I KNOW FOR SURE that my WS is still carrying on with the OW. I'm not being fooled. He has not done the NC letter and is stalling me. However, I'm pretty sure he's trying to get out of it but he remains addicted. She's not making him high anymore but he's afraid go cold turkey. I've learned so much from MB and Steve Harley.

I'd love to learn how your H's A finally ended after the cake-eating. How long have you been in recovery?

Mimi, in answer to your questions...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'd love to learn how your H's A finally ended after the cake-eating. How long have you been in recovery?
<hr /></blockquote>#1. When he believed 100% that there was the possibility of losing me. He just left her and returned home.Did not tell her much of anything. He said that he had discussed with her his returning to me but it created a huge argument and she would not accept it. She is a mental case and he dreaded ending it just as your WH expresses.

#2.We have been in recovery for 2 years and right now doing good. We are doing good. I still struggle with things like there being a NC and his not ending the A in the proper way. My H is wonderful to me now.I have set boundries and he knows I will not allow some things that I allowed before.I do not believe that he will risk it again.
Right now what seems most important to you is probably that your WH end the A and return home. The problems are not over at that point.The recovery begins and it will go a lot better if the right things are in place.You have the best advice in the world right here at your finger tips and by phone with Dr. Harley.
I am pulling for you even when I have wanted to reach through this screen and shake you,I still am on your side,Mimi.I hope that your WH wakes up real soon and that when you are back together that it will be better than before.Time and the right principles will get you there. It took a long time for us to get on track and I am thankful we are there.I will be reading about you. kk

[ August 24, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]

[ August 24, 2003, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]

One thing I would look at hard and long. If WH makes a promise, then doesn't keep it, he's not worth it.
I told my H so many promises he'd broken, that he better not make any he would not keep because it was his last chance with me!
If H says he's going to do so and so, break by this date,etc. and doesn't do it, how can you possibly believe anything he promises if and when he does come home?
It has to start now, not later.
The largest and hardest part of rebuiling is going to be trust, that one keeps their word is proving their sincerity.
Mimi, what does Harley say to this? Can you ask H for a date that he's going to stick to? I don't think this is about making it easy for WH to break from the mess he created.
There probably is no easy way to say it's over, but it sure is necessary to say it.
The opinion that WH is right on the brink of doing this hasn't proven him to be doing so!
Cleaning out the condo would not be proof to me.
I don't think two months down the road will be any easier for him to go NC with OW than it is now. In fact, I think it only makes it harder and time simply puts them closer!
I can only say you are one tough cookie and a great woman to endure so much.
I've followed you since the time he came home and you took a trip together, the first failed attempt at recovery. It's been many months now too.
I only wish I had your strength! Thank God I didn't have to face what you have because I would have failed big time.
Are you still counseling often with Harley?
I'd be interested in what he has to say about giving an ultimatum in time line? Though I know through reading a lot here, he advises the plan and waiting for other person to wake up!
Many here have worked the plans successfully. That is most encouraging.
As for me, I wouldn't be able to recover from this type of A.
It must be very true that God will not allow us to endure more than we can bear.
If he brings you to it, he will bring you through it.
Blessing, LouLou

Hold me to this, guys.

WS is saying that this is THE LAST WEEK.

He has been doing weird things like, leaving his Passport in my mailbox. His Passport is the first thing he made sure to take when he left last time. He also left me a big check that he made for consulting.

However, MY PLAN, is to go completely dark if he is not finished by next Sunday. Completely dark is defined by changing by home and cell phone numbers and never answering my office phone. I told him this. He seemed panicked and would love to think of someway to keep me stalled. Lou, this is what is different than last time. I have gained his respect. Even though I have made my slipups, he sees me as a different person. He recognizes that he can't control me to the extent that he used to. Another plus is that he finds that attractive. Also, I am more aware of the games that he is playing with me. In other words, with the help of MB, I am more powerful.

His job now is to write the NC letter, rent the condo or at least to arrange getting all of the furniture out of there. No temptation to go back there to meet her or to have a safety net to move back into. His last response to me was to please make room in my garage for his car by the end of the week. I told you, crazy and weird.

Recovery for us will be a big challenge, I know. It will come sooner or later. I'm confident of that Lou. I will give it a try. I think he is now living in her trashy house in a ghetto neighborhood. He moved out of his brand new condo that he wanted so badly into there. I'm living in a brand new house that is nicer than the one I moved out of. I can't figure the reasoning behind the housing situation. What a major step down for him in terms of lifestyle!! He is wanting to get out of there, I'm positive, but is too addicted to make the move.

I admit that I have slowed down the process by relieving him of some of his pain.

Keep me in your prayers!!!! I'm struggling with this.

[ August 24, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I will definitely keep you in my prayers. This is your opportunity to show you mean business. Don't fall off the wagon. I think you have him worried now, and that's exactly where he needs to be. The thought of you locking him out of the communication loop is frightening to him. He knows you are about to cut him loose and it will be just him and the OW. I think that is making him sick to his stomach to hear that.

He is trying to keep the hook baited, however, by giving you his passport and the check. Don't, don't, don't take the bait! He is just trying to keep you strung along, and that is not enough for you! It must be all or nothing. Do not settle for the crumbs, the scraps he is trying to entice you with.

We are here for you. Keep your strength, keep your resolve! The hardest thing I had to do recently was to email my WH that I didn't want to know the progress of his IC, not until the OW is gone for good. That hurt, because I care for him and want to know how he is doing. I also know that he recently had follow-up testing done (blood work) because he had cancer 7 years ago. All his tests since have been coming back clear, but it is killing me not to know if his is OK. But...gotta stay dark, and strong...like good coffee - hey, need to tell Coffeeman that!

We care about you Mimi. Keep your strength!

ISG

Mimi,

I WILL be praying. kk

P/S We will want to hear from you as to how things are going.
I wish for you,the best.My FWH and I are doing wonderful even with the problems earlier.We are a success story.I have no doubt of his love and devotion to me and trust is not an issue. He is well worth it.I wish for you,the best of success. kk

[ August 24, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]

Thanks for being there, guys.

I was in PLAN B mode today. Planted flowers, bought new pots and pans.

I'm praying for strength for me and WS. I know he WANTS to do it but CAN'T. It's out of my hands now.

This is such a tragedy for all us so I will be praying for you guys,too. I have been thinking all day that I can't believe that my life turned out like this.

I'm praying for a future like yours KING'S KID.

[ August 24, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I'm praying for you too Mimi! I hope this phase is almost over for you.

NW

Mimi -

I haven't posted to you lately but I've been reading about your latest developments. I truly hope that your WH sticks to his statement that THIS IS THE LAST WEEK!

I have a question for you. Are you planning to let WH move into your new house if he says he wants to come home? Let's say he calls you Friday afternoon and says he's written the NC letter, are you prepared to invite him to live with you right then and there? I guess I'm asking because I know I wouldn't let my WH move home immediately. There are too many issues to work through before I'd feel comfortable enough to have him live with me. Mimi, I know we're all different, I'm just asking for your opinion on this. How do you visualize the next step?

Lablady

In my situation, I really have no other choice. WS will have to move in with me. We will have to try to work out our issues with Steve H.

For one thing, he's so addicted to her that he will have to be extremely accountable to me. Plus, he's moving out of his condo. And, seems to feel the need to hide from her. She does not know where I live. Wild Woman thing -which I believe she is. He was intrigued by her worldly, ghetto ways. She knows bad people and she is bad, lives in a drug-infested neighborhood.

Update:
WS was angry about what he thought was an "ULTIMATUM" from me. He said "I don't like for people to give me ultimatums" BLAH... BLAH...BLAH.
However, he quickly purred down. I could tell that he respected me and knows that I am not backing down. He ended up saying "it may even be before Monday" which was the deadline that I gave.
I will keep you guys posted.

Good luck Mimi! You have worked hard. A few more days, and you will see which way your life is to go.

You are a different woman because of all of this. Keep your hard fought and hard won positive changes that you have made.

When he does send NC, it is time for a recovery agreement (what my wife and I didnt do...that is why we are starting with Steve Harley this week...it was a major mistake to have her home and not have a roadmap to recovery). And make him stick to it.

It will be too easy to let him home, and then just try to make things "normal" again. And then the counseling will stop. And then normal will lead right back where you were.

When he first comes home is the GREATEST opportunity to start things off right. You sent a PBL to him. It said NC. It also said that if he came home, that there would have to be counseling and a plan...right? Well, just because he came home and issued a NC to the OW...do not use that as an excuse to let off your other conditions. That was my biggest mistake and is why primarily that we have floundered the last couple of months. I think Steve wil get us going again later this week (me on Wed, my wife on Friday).

Good luck and keep it up.

In His arms.

Mimi, I am anxious for you.This week will be one of anticipation.
The OW in his life is a mental case,just as the FOW from my H's life was and he expects trouble. He has gotten himself in a mess,along with the addiction to her.
You are doing things right and there are many who are telling you good things.Mortarman....
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> it was a major mistake to have her home and not have a roadmap to recovery). And make him stick to it.

It will be too easy to let him home, and then just try to make things "normal" again. And then the counseling will stop. And then normal will lead right back where you were.
<hr /></blockquote>I wish for you a M that is wonderful and blessed!
I am hoping for the best for you,Mimi.kk

[ August 26, 2003, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: kings kid ]

Nothing new to report this morning but I want to stay on the first page!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm trying to stay calm, cool and collected.

Voice Mail Info:

WS rented his condo today. He says: "I finally got everything taken care of at the condo this morning."

WS asked me to request second Friday in September off from my boss. I guess I can ask for the day off even if I don't take it. WS doesn't have to know that I went ahead and put in the request.

Mimi, I'll have you in prayers, definitely!
I hope you are going to get to see the NC letter and also proof it's delivered. I would certainly want that much.
His attitude about the ultimatum was normal, but it's his way of trying to keep total control which he no longer can and salvage marriage with you.
The positive changes you've made in you? KEEP THEM!
I know if we go back to our old selves, it starts all over again.
You like how you feel now, how you are and know that you have some control which is a good feeling.
The new you will more likely keep him on his toes and in line better than before.
We have to show some independence or get taken for granted.You've come along way and done very well.
When we appear so co-dependent, they tend to take too much for granted and walk all over us.
Big difference between showing someone you want them in your life, and letting them know you desperately need them in life!
Show the want, hide the need part!
Blessings, LouLou

Mimi,

My heart is going pitter-patter. The anxiety is killing me. Can't imagine what you are going thru.

Now, question. I just posted something on my thread about this. Are you going to let your WH come right back immediately to your home or are you going to force him into some "time out" to really, really think about things?

I am thinking mine won't come right back if/when he thinks he is ready. Did that last time and it failed. I somehow think that there is a problem with allowing a WH to leave the comfort of the OW and come right back to the comfort of his W and home. Where is the cooling off period? Where is the introspection? Where is there time to really decide that is a commitment, not just a choice between two persons, two lifestyles?

I know you said your H has no where else to go, and believe me, I am the last one to give advice here, but have you considered just having him rent a room at a motel for some to-be-defined period of time, to read, to collect his thoughts, to be totally alone? Think about it. Our WHs haven't been alone. First they had us, then they had the cake period when they had BOTH of us. Now they give up OW and expect to have us again. I think they need time to ponder on this and decide not only that they want us, but that they want MARRIAGE and FIDELITY.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. Rank amateur that I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

P.S. Keeping your thread on Page 1 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

After fuming yesterday about ultimatums, he gave me a date of September 12th. Well, I know that is a ways off from the promise of the end of this week but it is a date. He respected me!!! He realized he could not get me to back down!!

For many different reasons, I need to let him come live with me, IS GIRL and LABLADY. It's a new house, a new beginning. It's a house he had some part in choosing. Domestic tranquility is a high need of his. Plus I have to stand my the PBL. That was not one of the conditions. Plus, he is highly addicted, wants to spend as much time as possible with me after NC. Many different reasons....

I'm probably rationalizing but we really had, at least, 20 plus wonderful years together before all of this. I think my WS is having a midlife crisis. Just like me, he has never really lived alone. Straight from the college dorm to marriage. I'm not sure he is able to do that now at age 50 along with the struggle of going through withdrawal.

He's not even back yet. He's still involved with her. He's still under the influence. Anything can change. All of this may be talking too soon. Going back to PLAN B MODE........

Nothing new to report this morning but I want to stay on the first page!!!
It's ALWAYS gotta be about you, doesn't it Mimi??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

He bought himself another 2 weeks?

Stringing you along some more.

And then when Sept 12 gets close maybe he can toss out another date.

This is why you need to be STRICTLY PLAN B. Don't let him toy with you like this.

LEX;
I'm still going completely dark if it's not by this Sunday.

The date of September 12th continues to be his agenda. I'm not exactly happy about it. I know what his game is.

Chris:

I acknowledged being a SPOILED BRAT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ August 26, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Here's a wicked little thought .... (hee-hee-hee)

Sept 11th (a date that will live in infamy) call him...

.... tell him YOU need 1 more week. You're "not ready".

Just see what happends....

Pep

PS .... I don't mean to harp on you .... but STD testing should NOT be an option, but a FIRM boundary. He was with a "wild woman" ... believe me, there are so many viruses and bacteria around, and many do not have symptoms right away.

Actually PEP, you are so brilliant! I'm not really sure that I am ready. I know it's going to be a long, hard struggle. I'm kind of enjoying my time alone. I don't want it to be indefinite, though.

Yes, checking for STDs for sure. August is time for my annual. Actually, now that I think of it, last year I had some weird infection thing requiring meds. Dr. did not tell me it was a STD. Now I know why and that it probably was. YUK!!!!

Mimi,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />LEX;
I'm still going completely dark if it's not by this Sunday.

The date of September 12th continues to be his agenda. I'm not exactly happy about it. I know what his game is.<hr /></blockquote>So, what are you going to DO about it? Go dark and wait until the 12th? Stay the way you are going, and wait until the 12th?

Mimi, you drew the line in the sand. Now, you will be prepared to draw a different line, as you have done so many times before (I am not jumping on you...I did many of the same things!). You told him, yourself, and us that this weekend was it. So make it be it!

If he has not sent NC letter and done the other things you have asked, then come Monday, you should completely shut down. BASOLUTELY NO CONTACT FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER! Dont tell him what you are doing or going to do. You have already told him that Sunday is the deadline. Well, that is the deadline! He does not get to set it.

Your husband is close to getting his act together. But you will hurt that effort if you allow him to push you around on this. He will lose respect for you!

Hold the line! He is the one surrendering, not you. He doesnt get to negotiate the terms of surrender. Negotiation happens after the OW is gone and he is back in the marriage. Until then, you set the terms.

So, the 12th is a non-starter. And between now and this Sunday, since you already have limited contact with him, I would tell him so. Maybe send him a revised PBL re-stating that this Sunday is the final date. There wil be no more future dates for Mimi to wait for. Tell him or write to him. Talk to him, even...as long as you are just talking about the terms of surrender. Once you reach Sunday, then it is COMPLETELY dark for you. No mailing PBLs. No more explanations to him. No more listening to his excuses.

He is an addict trying to make his way back. You cant help him until he gets back. He is right at the end...dont let him down and stop his progress. You hold that man to his word! And you keep yours!

In His arms.

Mimi,
Just want you to know that I've been following and I'm pulling for you. This can't be easy, knowing it's probably right around the corner but still...
Take care, S

I'm getting depressed now. I'm sorry I told you about the date. I had to give a date to my boss to get off. I'm getting fed up with this crap and want to give up. It seems like I can't do anything right. I feel like meeting with my WS and saying forget it. HELP ME!!!! I'm confused and losing it now.

You seem to feel like he is playing me and to me he seems sincere. Who do I believe? You guys who I don't know or a man I have loved for 30 years?

I'm struggling and doing the best that I can. I feel like you guys are ganging up against me. What's wrong with wanting to believe in him some?

[ August 26, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

Settle down. You are okay. Really! look at what you just wrote. Is that what you told Now What on his thread? Or others you have posted to?

You KNOW this is an addiction. it will take a LONG time for him to fully get over it. Of course you want to believe him, to believe in him again. And you will! But, you must understand that he has not entered rehab yet. He is still addicted, and still with OW. He is close to doing the right thing. And you are excited about that because everything you have dreamt and worked for is right there for the taking.

But it isnt. You will have to wait on him. You cannot speed it up, nor can you love him into it. He is where he is at PRECISELY because you stood up for yourself, got a life, and moved forward. Oh, and went dark!

We are NOT ganging up on you. We are trying to support you, to help stiffen your resolve to finish this. I give a lot of advise here. But sometimes, it takes people like JL, Coffeeman, and a host of others to help me DO what I already know I should do. It is hard when it is right in front of you.

You do want to believe in him! Mimi, he IS sincere. but you just read my post on addictions on another thread. He may be sincere, but that still doesnt help him move anywhere. Just like that addict is sincere about not being an addict.

Of course you dont know us. And you dont know the Harleys or James Dobson...or any of the other experts. But, understand this...that husband of yours of 30 years is no different than my wife of 10 years. They got into an affair. They got hooked. And it took a full Plan B to get them out of it. Your husband has followed the WS script to a tee.

It is like I said on another post I had...each person is different. But there are some things that are the same. We might all react differently to our hands touching something hot (yell, cry, cuss, say nothing, etc) but we all pull our hands away from the flame. Your husband is no different than most WSs. You sometimes have trouble seeing that...as I did with my wife. My wife came home in April and I thought that she didnt need a withdrawal period from the OM. Well, guess what? She did. All WSs do.

So Mimi, this advice is all tempered by what the experts say. We are all trying to follow the MB script, which has been proven to work. And we try to keep you focused on your goal. Before you let your husband down by not keeping your word.

There is no problem telling us the date. You should have. It is how we can help you keep what you KNOW you must do. You are the closest on this board to getting to recovery. But, if you dont finish Plan B, if you dont keep your word...your husband will lose respect for you...and he will have even more trouble doing the right thing.

We are here for you...he is not right now. He will be if you will just trust the experts, lean on your friends...and wait on God.

In His arms.

So do I meet with him and look him straight in the face and ask him if he is playing me and tell him that I will not tolerate this anymore? That's what I am wanting to do. I don't know why I'm feeling that way right this minute. It's because I was happy about the date and now I feel like I was fooled. I feel so stupid.

I want to talk to him. What exactly do I say???

[ August 26, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hi MIMI , I only posted to you a couple of times , but follow everyday . I think you have done a great job and I can relate to your confusion right now , as can others .

Everyone may have a different take on what should come at this point . I agree you know him best . No date is really going to matter JMVHO .

When he feels he did it his way to a degree is when he will come home , not before then no matter what .

I know what everyone here is saying is great advice and so do you ,,, But theres that part that lingers that YOU know this man . Your not nieve to the game if you want to call it that you just understand him .

For most its a no brainer , tell the B!TCH good bye , see ya , ect.

But your WH is choosing to end this his way on his time line .

MINE did the same exact thing .

can't write bye

Don't call Mimi!!!!

Your silence says it louder.

Pep

Mimi:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So do I meet with him and look him straight in the face and ask him if he is playing me and tell him that I will not tolerate this anymore? That's what I am wanting to do. I don't know why I'm feeling that way right this minute. It's because I was happy about the date and now I feel like I was fooled. I feel so stupid.<hr /></blockquote>First off...you are not stupid! I feel that way sometimes too when dealing with my wife. Stop thinking this way. You are in love with your husband and emotionally tied to him. You want to believe him and believe in him again. THERE IS NOTHING STUPID ABOUT THAT!

Now the task at hand...you want to talk to him? Okay. You asked about asking him if he was playing you? Well, first off, he will not answer it truthfully. If he IS playing you, he isnt going to tell you. But in your case, I dont think he is.

The more likely scenario is that he is still an addict, and still pushing off getting off the "drug." So, you asking him if he is playing you wont get what you are looking for.

The way you are feeling is normal. This is why you MUST have a plan, because your emotions will lead you all over the place.

Rememberthe movie "saving Private Ryan?" When the soldier was trying to help that little girl and got shot by the sniper? His buddies ran for cover. There he was out there still getting shot, and there was NOTHING they could do about it until they took out the sniper. One guy tried to get up and run out there to help. But all that would have done was got TWO people shot. So his buddies grabbed him and dragged him back behind the wall. They had to wait until the sniper gets taken out.

We are your buddies. We can see that you want to run out and save your husband...but you cant until the alien is gone! All you will do is get hurt yourself!

So, you must have a plan. In the Army's case, we have a plan (battle drill) for reacting to a sniper. So even though we might be caught up in one of our buddies being shot, we also know there is a plan to get us out of it. And it might seem slow. It might hurt. But, we have to trust it. Because to go with our emotions would be disasterous!

You also have a battle drill...a plan. It is called Plan B. If you must talk to him, and in this case, it might be a good idea, then it must be straight out of the Plan B script. You must reiterate what your PBL said. You must make him understans that although you love him, you will not allow him to treat you this way. No shouting. No anger. Just matter of fact.

He will scream such things as not liking ultimatums. So what? Tell him that this first off isnt an ultimatum. It is a boundary, and there is a world of difference.

If you havent read Love Must Be Tough by Dobson, then read it TODAY! He says every marital breakdown is predicated on a lost of RESPECT. So, with the loss of respect, how do we think we need to get the marriage back? By REGAINING respect. You have done that by standing up for yourself, starting a new life, etc. You are a mature, confident woman...and he HAS NOTICED!

But, you back down from your boundary...you show your walls are made of jello...and he will NOT respect you. And you cannot love that which you cannot respect. And you cannot trust that which you cannot respect.

If you talk to him, stick to the plan. DO NOT DEVIATE! Tell him exactly what you said in the PBL. Tell him that you have given him a chance to proave himself right up until this Sunday. After that, you will preceed on with Plan B and darkness.

He is right there Mimi. All he needs is one more push, IMO. But, if you push wrong...you will push him in the wrong direction. He needs a little more panic, a little more pain in his life. The addict is just about there. DO NOT ENABLE HIM!

We are here for you. You are hours, and even a few days away from this all coming to fruition. As I said to Now What...do not go belly-up and go soft on us. Your husband, whether he knows it or not, is counting on you to be strong and do the right thing. Because right now, he still doesnt know how.

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
I'm getting depressed now. I'm sorry I told you about the date. I had to give a date to my boss to get off. I'm getting fed up with this crap and want to give up. It seems like I can't do anything right. I feel like meeting with my WS and saying forget it. HELP ME!!!! I'm confused and losing it now.

You seem to feel like he is playing me and to me he seems sincere. Who do I believe? You guys who I don't know or a man I have loved for 30 years?

I'm struggling and doing the best that I can. I feel like you guys are ganging up against me. What's wrong with wanting to believe in him some?<hr /></blockquote>Oh no, we are very much FOR you around here! We are not the ones who betrayed you in an affair, Mimi. He is. But we have heard all this before from your H. And he was "sincere" then. And he will be "sincere" when changes the date again on September 12th.

He is playing games, Mimi. We can see right through it even though you don't want to see it. We want you to protect yourself and stop this game.

Please do not even for a moment think we are against you and go into defensive mode on us. We are in your corner, Mimi.

[ August 26, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

I love you guys but you have to understand that this is about maintaining my sanity. I can't bear it any longer. Really. I will not take another weekend with my WS with the OW. I told him that today. If he does it again, it's over for me. The pain of this is too unbearable.

It's like a cancer patient. Do you tell the pt. straight up "face it, the chemotherapy is not working you will die soon." No, even though the pt. has a slim chance of survival you do not want the pt. to give up hope in the midst of treatment.

I am going to maintain my hopefulness this week. Otherwise, I will become depressed. I don't think it's fair for you to be so sure Melody. What do you want me to do just give up? That's what I want to do when I hear you say "We can see right through it". That makes me feel like I am stupid. If he is really as you say he is, Melody, I don't want him. That does not seem like a MBing place to be. Is that what you guys are saying? That I don't need to be with my husband. I'm so confused now. I know he betrayed me but am I not supposed to try to forgive him?

If he doesn't follow through by Monday, I will go dark as promised. However, today, I have to remain hopeful. Until that time, I have to believe that he will keep his promise to me. He said he would again this evening. He said it would be Sunday or Monday. He said September 12th is the day that he wants us to go away. He may be lying but he does seem desperate for me not to go dark again. He seems to respect me. You see, now I'm questioning my reality of thinking that I had gained his respect.

I may have to go away from here. I don't want to but I am not feeling the love here today for some reason. I feel better when I am in denial. I guess that's human nature.

[ August 26, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, no one is asking you to throw in the towel. Only to set boundaries and not let him trampede over them as he has done before. The more he is allowed to do so, the longer he stays with the OW and more threatened your sanity becomes.

I agree 100% with MM's suggestion that you set your boundary and stick with it. You gave him until Sunday and letting him change that boundary again only prolongs your pain. He has been telling you this for some time now. So he has demonstrated in the past that he will use this to prolong contact with the OW.

Now, of course you are not stupid, Mimi, but we know from experience that intense hopefulness will do some strange things to one's viewpoint. We have all been there ourselves. And as your FRIENDS, and people who want the best for you, we would be remiss in pointing out the red flags here. There is not a person here who doesn't hope that he is absolutely sincere this time, Mimi.

But friends don't give friends false hope, they give them the truth, no matter how hard. So please just hear what we say, use what you want and leave the rest, ok?

Mimi:

Whatever you decide 2 do, remember this: You CANNOT do this wrong. This is your life, he is your H, and only YOU can define the plans and set the standards as 2 what is appropriate for you 2 do. And only YOU can determine, based on your feedback with him, what is the right way 2 address your H's behavior right now.

We're all still here for you if you need us. But in the end, this is YOUR plan.

best,
-2long

Mimi, everyone here wants the best for you, and that means happiness that you want!
It isn't about being stupid dear. Haven't you ever heard that sometimes we're so close to someone we really can't see them? outsiders see a lot more than the spouse does because we do love, hope and dream!
with all that said, is he going to be through with OW before the Sept 12th trip? Or will this be like the last one and he came home to return to her? I sincerely hope not.
Maybe I've read too much and not really read enough to see about the plan for Sept 12.
From the others here who have worked a Plan B successfully though, I'd say no trip unless the NC letter has been delivered and he's done with her for good. And you have to have proof of that, or I would.
Remember, you don't have to listen to anyone else, You can do exactly what you feel like doing.
But if returning to the same type of relationship you've had for months is what you want, that is what you'll get if you quit now.
You've come too far and made such great progress all on your own! You're the one who did the plan, Mimi. All you got here were the tools, and instructions, but you did the work!
Why does it surprise you so many of us do not trust? We've been there ourselves.
You do know your H better than anyone. You also have brought everyone here up on who he is and what he's done.
Did you not trust him back in March? or was it FEB? he set up a trip for you two and said it was over by 4/1 or am I mistaken?
You trusted, and I remember how happy you were at that time.
I think what others are saying is they don't want that to happen to you again! Even hercules can only take so much weight!
No, I don't know him, but I wouldn't trust anything said. It has to be actions for it to mean anything. Words are so plentiful to all.
Sort of like, "Can you hear me now"? Yeah, I hear you, now show me the phone!
It's all set evidently for him to make his break, NC letter, etc. And the trip.
Question is, will you go away if the NC letter has not been delivered? if he's still living at her dump?
And will he continue to dangle trips in front of you while he hesitates?
Nobody wants you going in circles here.
You love your H, I love mine too. But I do know they're still lying, deceiving jerks as long as they want to be and as long as we allow them to be.
He's already broken promises a few times, so while you may believe him, most of us can't until he's done the work. There can be no trust while actions are dormant. Trust, but verify.
When your H proves his word is good, I'll be the first to applaud the man! And wish you every happiness. Until then though, there is no way to trust him in my opinion. The tongue is a glib thing. The heart is totally separate! Once I've been lied to, no one gets my trust again based on their word!
LouLou

I went back to reread so I'm sure what I read. LOL
No, I wouldn't give him the story that you need more time. Why let him buy himself more time at your expense?
BTW,he keeps breaking his word. So if Sept 12 came and he says two more weeks, one more week, he'd have himself a packett of papers to sign before the end of week! You think you can't live without him, but you are and have for many months! He's been playing this waiting game for months. Lying all the way.
Sorry, but I'd be suspicious on what else he's planning on how to stab me in the back financially or otherwise.
Anybody else here thought of that? Sounds like he's buying himself a lot of time for more than his addiction to OW.
I am not going to respond If I can help it until I see the proof and can say, Mea Culpa!
End of this week my [censored]. Sorry, but it's so obvious this man had no intention of this week and most likely not Sept 12 this year or next!
While he's playing his game and having a field day with keeping control, Mimi's life will be dwindling away!
He is definitely in full control of this issue right now!
As long as you go along with it Mimi, he'll figure you're sitting waiting even in dark and he can keep your string pulled anytime he wishes.
Nobody may like it, but these are the facts I see here and now.
I will keep my mouth shut from now on, until, or when the time comes to say Congratulations to Mimi.
I say if a man loves his wife truly, he would quit pampering himself and OW and get on with his marriage. He's not afraid of anything. He has got to be one of the worlds best con artist!

LouLou

Mimi!!!!!

I LOVE YA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

45 PAGE POST..

666 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> REPLIES...(OK THAT NUMBER IS CREEPY....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

BUT I LOVE YOU...

ARE YOU FEELING IT YET...????

ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lou:

I really appreciate your post to me. It sunk in. It stuck. I heard you.

He does seem different this time than last time. The trip is not a big thing for me. I'm not doing anything without the NC letter. He knows about the letter requirement and refers to this along with other conditions I stated on the PBL. In fact, I really don't want him to leave her under duress. I want him to leave her and come back to me when he chooses to and wants to do ti -whether its Sept 12th or December 12th.

To All of you:
Continue to keep me in your prayers. I'm struggling. I know you care.

[ August 26, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Ok ARK!!!

I told you, spoiled brat!

Some people like me will do anything for attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wait a minute, Lou.
You changed to a different person in your second post. Do you have a split personality? I really agreed with your first post and then you got a little paranoid on me.

Whoa, hold on. My WS is really bringing out the anger in you. He really is not that bad. Really. This is getting out of hand.

I'll just report back to you guys if he keeps his promise. Bye.

[ August 26, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi --
Don't leave now.
You need this place more than ever right now.

You have done a TEXTBOOK Plan A and B. AND ITS WORKING.

We don't want to see your hopefulness cause you to slip your boundries back for the next 2 weeks.
Then H gets his "fix" of you, and continues to cakewalk.

Thats what tends to happen when you relax the boundries Mimi. Give him an inch and he'll take a mile.

You've been the MB Queen -- please keep it up as a shining example to all BS's. And don't leave now, you need the resolve and support everyone can give you.

If you are sensing that we are raining on your parade, please just think of it as keeping you on the parade route instead of letting you take a detour!

Mimi,

Read what YOU have said to me. DO NOT leave now and DO NOT give up now!

NW

Mimi,

I know that you are there because the title of your thread was changed in the last few minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> DO NOT give up now!

NW

Mimi,

Whether he keeps his promise or not, make sure you stay as best as you can be. You are near the brink of a turning point. This is NOT the time to be throwing any towel anywhere - ya hear?!?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now give me that towel and you go back to washing the dishes. I'll dry. Watch out for th knives...... I come from a long line of samurai's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

[ August 27, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

quote by NewBranch:
Remember, you don't have to listen to anyone else, You can do exactly what you feel like doing.

My thoughts are as always..... It is not so much Plan A or Plan B..... Many people seem to get so caught up in "what plan are you in?".... as if it is the plan that works......

What works is this.... confidence, self respect, and NO PRESSURE..... Pressure just does not work...... they have to come back because they CHOOSE to come back..... if not, it just seems like work and living up to rules to them.(which usually turns them off)

Just like people trying to pressure you to stick to plan B.... I have noticed that the more they try to talk you into it and pressure you to listen to their point of view, the more you seem to want to resist it.......

Do what you want.... There are no "shoulds" or "should nots"..... If he comes home, fine... if not, that's fine too.... If you believe he is sincere, that's ok.... live in the moment. be happy just the way things are.... no pressure.....
Be nice... Be confident... have self respect....
stop the relationship talks...

This is what will work the best... Plan B seems to work the best when these things are present...
When the WS feels pressure and gets the idea that their are a bunch of rules, they naturally want to
fight against that pressure.......

Don't worry about what plan your are in.... Stay focused on your "attitude".

As Dr.Dobson says.......
"Respect, the CRITICAL ingredient in human affairs is demonstrated by, quiet dignity, self confidence and common courtesy."

I have found this to be true....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Do what you want.... There are no "shoulds" or "should nots"..... If he comes home, fine... if not, that's fine too.... If you believe he is sincere, that's ok.... live in the moment. be happy just the way things are.... no pressure.....
Be nice... Be confident... have self respect....
stop the relationship talks...

<hr /></blockquote>This is exactly the POV that I had decided to take today before even reading your post. Where have you been KEEPMVNFORWARD? You understand me. Thanks for reminding me how effective Dobson's approach has been towards my WS since he left the first time. He responds negatively to pressure and likes to feel free that he is doing this on his own, at his own pace. He even responds to hearing that out loud.

I just want to be happy for the moment.

I work with very sick people in my job. The patients that cope best are the ones that "act as if". Even though they are dying, they don't give up hope and try to get as much pleasure as they can out of each minute of the day. It is "false hope" but they can endure through a tragic situation. This coping strategy is done by choice in order to make it. It is not done blindly. That is what I am doing.

Mimi,

I'm glad you are still here. I know how hard this all is. I understand everything that you are saying and I suspect everyone else does too because they have been there too. It is very difficult to manage your emotions and actions in such an intense situation that we find ourselves in. It is also hard to predict what another person is going to do with their emotions (H)based on your actions. I understand the pressure thing, my W has said as much. She told me that she does not want to feel forced into making a decision and told me that I am giving her an ultimatum. She has also said to me & her friend at different times that SHE has to decide things on her own. Should your H or my W even have become involved in a situation that they would have to make these decisions? Absolutly not. Is it fair to us? Nope, they violated us. We have to take the principles and advice learned from here and do the best that we can with our given situation. I will say that I feel many WS will push the envelope as far as they can before picking one side of the fence or another.

I am not going to offer any advice on what to do because afterall, look at me, what do I know? I just wanted you to know that I am here.

NW

MIMI, do not leave. I said I wouldn't post again until time to congratulate you, but I did have to ask you to stay.
Please remember from my previous post. I admitted no way could I do what some of you do, I would not be that strong.
So I come from my own position which is not yours!
The anger is due to having read you for months, and liking you, feeling much empathy for your pain and what you are enduring.
I don't know your H or you, I just took sides I suppose which is wrong of me.
You need these supporters here, many have been your rock so please do not leave!
I'm sorry I upset you, I would probably be the same as I did defend my H too against family.
I'm not a split personality. LOL NO.
I didn't endure what you have, so the second post was probably from trying to put myself in your position and how I'd react.
Again, I'm only posting to say sorry and stay. I will await your great news and pray it comes soon.
LouLou

Mimi,

There is no way that I am pushing some hard and fast rules. You know this. I have described before the transition period, etc. That being said, I want you to consider something.

When you say you are going to hold guarded optimism, I say GREAT! You should. It is what will help get you through. I as much as anyone here has said that I believe your husband is on his way home. Could he fail? Sure. But the evidence points towards recovery.

Okay? Can you now believe me that I do understand how you feel, and the things you have to do for YOURSELF to get through these last trying days?

Now, what does all of this have to do with your husband? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! You keep up that hope, you keep preparing yourself. You keep focused on that end result. But guess what? He doesnt need to know that. If he doesnt do what he said he would do, then he should live in Mimi-darkness until he does. IO know, I know. You KNOW your husband! But guess what? A lot of this is human nature.

I just got off the phone with Steve Harley (check out my thread in a few minutes with my update). One thing he told me is that these plans (Plan A/Plan B/Recovery Plan) are all based on the basics of human nature and on the basics of affairs. Most people dont deviate to far from the norm. He said it is like being sick. Each person is different. But remarkably, most people require the same medicine for that sickness to get well.

So, the "medicine" for what ails your husband has been shown to you over and over again. When you follow the doctors prescription, he begins to get well. But as Steve said today, we tend to not finish the whole bottle of medicine. We start feeling better, and stop taking the medicine. And then we never fully get rid of what ails us, and we are back in the doctors office a few weeks later...sicker than ever!

Every time your husband starts getting "well," you have stopped giving him his medicine. And in short order, he goes right back to being "sick" again.

Now, for the first time in all of this, I really believe he is on the edge of full recovery from his "sickness." He WANTS to get well. And he now knows he NEEDS to get well. But Mimi...you are still providing for his care. And he still has a couple of doses left of medicine before he can say the illness has left him and he can begin rehabilitation. You stop now...and the "sickness" that will grow from this will be so great, that it may not be able to be overcome again.

All I am saying, and I think most are saying here, is that it is okay for YOU to be optimistic. Shoot...I would even try to mentally fool myself there at the end so the pressure wouldnt overwhelm me. But when it came to my wife, I never showed it. She got tough love. She got Plan B. She got boundaries. And as soon as she was done with her medicine and the illness was gone (the OM), only then could we move onto the recovery.

Do what YOU have to do to survive! But at the same time, do not let up on what got you here. Your husband need not know what is going on with you right now. Let him worry about this Sunday. Let him panic because he may be pushing things too far. Dont reassure him! He has had enough of that over this, and with the PBL. You take the next two days to show him that you arekeeping your word. That you are there for him and are ready to start things, as he promised. You are ready to keep your word.

But Mimi...if that man doesnt keep HIS WORD, then all you can do is go dark. And pull completely away. I will bet my bottom dollar that even if that happens, he wont be gone for long. I believe that either he will make Sunday happen, or he will try to cake eat and push it further again. if you give in, he will just push it again. If you dont...then he will see that he has indeed crossed a line. He will panic. And he will soon be standing on your door.

My wife said what really brought her home was that I finally stood up to her. RESPECT. Steve even said it today...that the problems in these marriages are people that have lost respect and then show disrespect to each other. He needs to respect you. Dont you disappoint him.

In His arms.

I'm almost scared to post this, to be honest, but I will. I owe it to you guys that have stuck with me to keep you posted.

I used TOUGH LOVE in my conversation with my WS yesterday- almost straight from Dobson. I think it hit home.

The scary part to tell you guys about is the date issue. He asked this morning: "Can you move the day you are off to Sept. 5 instead of Sept. 12. I think it will be better for us to go away this coming weekend right after everything is over." He knows this is after the NC letter. He also contacted the movers that I used .He plans to have them move the rest of his stuff from his condo (the bedroom suit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) to my house. He called me from there. He continues to indicate that his plans are for Sunday or Monday. I think yesterday he was trying to stall and I did not back down.

Thanks guys for the nudge.

I also played a little game which KEEPMVNFORWARD and ESPOIR would appreciate but some of you others might not like. It worked great,though!!! I could tell that my WS reacted to it. He has been calling my VoiceMail all day since then, telling me about his activities today. Not just about coming back home. He's telling me about his workday. Talking to the VoiceMail!!

Well, the game was. I told him about a man that was trying to pick me up at the gas station. This really happened. I played dumb and concerned to my WS and said "Is that how men pick women up? Do you think it works?" WS said: "Yes, sure, what did he say to you?"

I told you that I am going to enjoy today regardless. I was feeling too bad yesterday.

Mimi,

I'm glad to hear everything sems to be moving forward on a reasonable course. I do have one suggestion. I would tell him to get rid of that bedroom suit. Start over with something new and something that wil not be a trigger for you repeatedly, day after day.

NW

Mimi,

I am glad you are back, and glad you are back with the MB principles.

As you may recall, I too went through the "I'm through with MB; I am going to do it MY way" phase. Actually a couple of times. Yet, every time, I have come back here, realized the wisdom, the logic, the PROOF that MB works. In my guy, I know it is the right plan. Too many similarities...too many instances of the WS reading off the same script.

The Harleys are on to something. Ya gotta believe. I believe in you, Mimi, and, God, I am praying for you and your H to enter recovery. When you do (note: when, not IF) please keep us informed, and don't forget us Plan B'ers out here.

We love you, Mimi.

Hugs!

ISG

Don't most homeless shelters need a good quality bedroom suit?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ August 27, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Pep,

Amen! Mimi, do NOT accept that bedroom suite in your home! NFW! (excuse me!)

Let him donate it - wherever!!!! You do NOT need that!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
Don't most homeless shelters need a good quality bedroom suit?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Put it on EBAY or the Craig's list <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't bring it into your home...... baaad trigger and it isn't the furniture's fault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

L.

Oh good, she changed her title, she doesn't hate us today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi, are you kidding about letting him bring that bed to your house?? FERGET IT!! Tell him to send that fleabag to the OW's house! Its not good enough for our Mimi.

Thank God you stayed the course, Mimi. I thought for sure you were going to steal defeat from the jaws of victory again.

I hope you see now that these people caught in affairs are remarkably similar. That the Harleys, Dobson, Carder, and others know what makes them tick. And your husband is not different.

Your tough love, your strength, is going to save your husband's life. One day, like Hope4Future put in a recent post, he will thank you and know that he owes everything to your perseverence, love and strength.

So, you get the 5th off! Dont tell him it is off until NC is sent and you have seen it and KNOW it is gone. Then you go away, have the time of yoru life with him, and come back here committed to starting another plan (oh great...not Mimi trying to follow another plan!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )...the Recovery Plan. I will finally be posting my talk with Steve Harley today, hopefully I'll have it up tomorrow. But understand, once you are in recovery, there must be a plan. And your husband must be in on it to. Otherwise, it aint recovery (believe me...I KNOW!).

And I like the game! Just be careful. WSs are very skittish. Dont frighten him anymore than he already is. There will be plenty of time for "playful retaliation" later!

Good job Mimi. As I just posted on Now What's thread (and I want you to continue to remember), that it isnt faith if you only have it in the good times!

In His arms.

Me thinks that bed has 'cooties'. LOL!!!

Oh...I agree on the bed.

Shoot, with cooties in it, how on Earth could you possibly give it away to some poor unsuspecting soul out there.

Nah! No way I could keep it, or give it away. Time to take it out in a field somewhere and have a good ole fashion bed burning!

Very cathartic!!

In His arms

MIMI , hi hope all is ok . I was reading on the RECOVERY board , and if you got a min. go read CHORUS new thread about N/C .

I don't know why , but I though of you and with some of the responses also I think it may be helpfull to you in feeling good about some of the things you say .

About knowing your S and doing things your way that might not be texted book MB .

Ever hear the song "I did it my way" well thats your WS . Mine was the same way .
Well got to go , have a nice day .

It SOUNDS encouraging. However, I feel that as long as he is with her anything can change.

VoiceMail Messages from WS today: "These LAST THREE DAYS will be really tough for me. I need for you to stay positive and help me". (I'm no sure what this means but I think he wants me to believe in his sincerity.)

He talked to his best friend today with whom he has not contacted since he went back to her this last time. He said he told friend that we would be up to visit them next weekend but wouldn't be staying at their house. The friends live in a big city where we have loved to signtsee and have, of course, visited often.

Today is interesting given that yesterday I had resolved that it wasn't going to happen. WS was sounding weepy and tentative yesterday as if he was having second thoughts. I did not contact him about the bed issue because I sensed he was looking for some excuse yesterday. Yesterday I did tell him again, as Steve Harley recommended that I repeat, "I need for you get rid of her by Monday". He said: "I know you keep telling me that over and over" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> He got that right! I thought he would be angry but look what has happened today. I keep being absolutely amazed at the value of gaining the WS' respect as encouraged by Dobson. I also am so personally proud of my changes in this regard.

Thanks for your encouragement guys. Continue to keep me in your prayers because "the evil spirits continue to abound".

[ August 29, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

quote:
Where have you been KEEPMVNFORWARD?

Been here the whole time..... I have always believed that you would "discover" the truth of what really works to bring back a WS.......

I repeat:
What works is this.... confidence, self respect, and NO PRESSURE.....

You can do all the Plan A and Plan B that you want, but it boils down to showing these attitudes for them to want to come back and for it to WORK when they do.....
_________________________________________________

quote: I also played a little game which KEEPMVNFORWARD and ESPOIR would appreciate but some of you others might not like. It worked great,though!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yea, I know it works great... That's why I highly recommend it...... Why would I recommend something that didn't work? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> If he truly loves you, why wouldn't a little "competition" be good for him?...... Might do him good to do a little "soul searching" of what he stands to lose...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So talk to us Mimi. What's up?

Hi Guys:

There is a lot of DRAMA going on!! WS seems truly frightened of OW. Called Sunday from another phone other than his saying that he is afraid of being HURT by her. Really, I'm reading this right MELODY. He was really scared. I don't know what he had told her or what she had threatened. He created this.

Today is Tuesday. Therefore, I am DARK.

It's all about being on his time frame, I think. He does not want to feel pressured. Or, maybe it has to do with her nuttiness. Anyways.....

He called on VOICEMAIL TODAY saying that he is writing the letter today and will call me later about arranging for me to read it. The Plan is for us to mail it on Friday as we leave to go away. He states that the Friday plans are definite, even though it's taking a couple of more days, he wants me to know "It's definitely over; this is all bull sh#$." I don't know what that BS remark is supposed to mean, if anything.

The drama includes her having an attempted break-in at her house this morning; remember the drug-infested neighborhood. Maybe one of her old boyfriends is mad. Who knows? WH states that today he is moving his clothes out while she is at work and school.

His cell phone is off.

There is lots of drama today.

Meanwhile, I am dark.

It's going to happen, I'm sure. However, you see we will have a lot of work to do during recovery.

[ September 02, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hang in there Mimi...the ride is always bumpiest right at the end. Just grab the hand rails and hold on. Stay dark.

Once he meets your PBL stipulations, makes sure the two of you discuss what to do in regards to the OW (and him being afraid); If he is truly afraid, then it might be time for him to go to the magistrate and get a protective order against her. Yeah, she could still do something. But, the point is if she comes anywhere near him, then her butt will be in a nice cell somewhere (I can see Mimi smiling with that image in her head right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Stay dark!! You are there. The printing press is ready to printout MIMI as the next MB success story. But, there is a little bit of rough road yet. This STILL could get derailed! So, stay dark and let him go through the worst of it.

My prayers are with you, and more importantly, with your husband right now. He is definitely reaping the whirlwind.

In His arms.

[ September 02, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

MM:

What does "reaping the whirlwind" mean?

It's an expression...basically means that he has brought on himself the mess that is falling upon him. All of his actions, all of his betrayal, everything...is now coming headlong onto him like a whirlwind (tornado). And he cant stop it or get out of the way.

But you CAN get out of the way! He has to go through this. You cannot save him from the consequences of his actions. Just be there to help him pick up the pieces when it is all over with!

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
Hi Guys:

There is a lot of DRAMA going on!! WS seems truly frightened of OW. Called Sunday from another phone other than his saying that he is afraid of being HURT by her. Really, I'm reading this right MELODY. He was really scared. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Mimi! Do you get the sense that he is following through on his promises or is he using this to buy time? Any thoughts?

Melody and others:

Even as of this evening, he is pretty definite about Friday. He said: "Tell "son", we won't be here Friday for his football game." It's as if he is psyching himself up, giving HIMSELF "pep talks". His last message to me was "I'm calling to pep YOU up. I'm sorry, I have a couple of more things I have to do".

How do I put this? It's almost like a power struggle or a matter of pride for him. He seems to be respecting my need for him to end things but still wants to do it his way. That has been an issue in our R which we will need to work on. He wants to make sure that I don't wear the pants in the family, that I respect him as the husband and father. He does not want me to take charge. However, he is very dependent on me to arrange things and to get things done. I'm sure that he missed that.

The fearfulness of her seems to be convincing him of his need to get out of this. He's not indicating that he needs to stay with her out of fear. I do think, though, that he is stalling. Hard to give up the drug? Trying to get that last hit? I don't think she's getting him high anymore. I think he wishes she did, that he misses that. Like the reference to BS, he seems to be seeing the "real her".

Dearest Mimi ~~~

Seeing "the real her" (nutty-slutty OW) is actually the easy part.

Seeing "the real himself" (the lying cheating WS) is not gonna be so easy.

Hold onto yourself Mimi .... "the dawn" is not exactly what you might be expecting. The dawn actually begins a new a struggle with his own ego and pride.

He will be missing the parts of himself he shed in order to allow himself the A. It can be awful for awhile. But, it is really a joy to be there when he "gets himself back." But, he may not be "there" for you, because he's not "there" for himself.... yet.

I am saying this to encourage you (although it might not sound so encouraging right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Recovery is tough .... remember? Well, he's not going to be a picnic when he starts to really look into that mirror. You're going to find yourself standing tall after discovering yourself during Plan A. .... and your H is behind you in as far as self examination goes. There might be only one healthy adult in the M for awhile.

Sometimes, it hits the WS like a ton of bricks. "Who the hell am I? I don't even like myself!"

You are shining like a STAR Mimi!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ September 02, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

((((((((((((((((BUMP)))))))))))))))))

You were on the 2nd page. So here is a bump for you mimi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am following your post in hope that it maybe me one day being that close.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> A girl can dream. They can't take that!

Quick Update: Plan is for WS to pick me up at 8:30 in the morning with the letter and we are on our way. He wanted me to meet him at the gym tonight. I said No. He said: "I guess you have things to do to get ready." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My Question: He wants to do Husband/fatherly things this weekend such as take car to my college son-car got repaired after his wreck. He also wants to go to son's college football game on Saturday. What is the psychology behind this? Here I was planning a wild, romantic weekend. He's putting me in that mother/wifey role again which he resented. Is this a set-up? Is he trying to be the GOOD GUY again? Or should I not worry about it. He certainly wouldn't be doing such things with the OW this weekend.

What are your thoughts??

Mimi

I do not personally think you should be having a 'wild,romantic' time with him. I hope I'm not being too stereotypically male here, but to me that means ending up with sex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The message that gives me is: I've been waiting for you to come back and its great to have you.

I know you have been waiting, but remember there are conditions associated with him coming back and the plan B letter is only one. I would be inclined to take things more slowly. What he is proposing sounds alright to me, and the 'clincher' is in your line about how he certainly wouldn't be doing it with the OW.

My advice: Go with what he has suggested, but try and put in something over the course of the weekend that you would like too. You have done most of the hard work in breaking up the A, but the reconciliation will be hard too and you need to take small carefully measured steps.

Good luck.

What I mean is that I want to have FUN for a change. I'm so tired of working. Working on the plan, working on moving, working on setting up the house.

Taking son the car, going to the football game, etc. seems like more of the WORK of motherhood which I had to do on my own while he was gone. It seems that everyone wants to keep me in that role and I want to be a WOMAN.

MIMI, I hear where your coming from, I kind of would be disappointed also .

I think he lead you to belive it was a "YOU & HIM" type of thing going down this week end .

If I read write didn't he send yo9u a voice mail a week ago saying tell S we can't make his game or is that something you assumed?

You know some times its not others that put US into that WIFE/MOTHER role , its what we may have portraying to others for so long . OUR family / H is the thing I live for .

I know I did I use to say I am happy being HIS WIFE and a mother.
But after the A I realized (while he was gone) I was wrong for that , I am a women , I want to be sexy, flirted with (by H) I want to be drooled over again , romantic, dance live laugh get drunk act stupid ect.

I to wanted HIM to stop looking at me and treating me LIKE JUST A WIFE / MOTHER .

He hated that pre-a that I did nothing but think of myself as that .

BUT weird is when he came home , the first thing he did was the all together FAMILY outings , kids all the time .

I had to stand up and say some thing and show it .

JMVHO - I know your dark until you leave tomorrow , but I would call him on this , you don't want this to be a sign of whats to come if its not what you want .

I would say it sounds nice US seeing Sons game , but I hope you have something else palned as well cause I am really looking forward to a FUN type of weekend with 2 adults .

Again sorry if I am off the mark , maybe you ment something else all together , just my 2 cents .

Have fun , and enjoy , with what ever happens , be thinking of ya .

3:
I mignt talk to him.

Both my sons play football. We will miss young son's game who lives in town. The older son plays college football out of town.

Thanks for understanding. We have the same POV.

Hey Mimi,

Expectations will bite you on the hiney every time.

If your husband really means this recovery, it means he is choosing you and his family - but it doesn't mean that he feels romantically inclined.

My recovery with my husband started with family stuff...getting used to each other again slowly. Part of the affair meant that he neglected the family, and thats the part he started fixing first.

I think it was probably 6-9 months into recovery before there was much in the way of romance or sex.

I'm not saying you cant go have fun or shouldn't ask for it....but your husband has some withdrawing and adjusting to do and he might not be in that spot yet.

Thanks so much, Bramblerose.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense.

He does seem sincere this time. Compared to last time, he is extremely remorseful, saying how sorry he is to have done this to me, etc. I need to at least be thankful for that.

thinking of you, mimi. Not checking in so much- but I see you are getting excellent advice from Pepper and others.

And by the way, you were masterful with your gas station story... I think that this is simply a "consequence" for WS- that they should be aware of. If they leave their spouse on their own, in order to go off with OP, said spouse may get hit on, and if they leave their spouse alone for too long, said spouse may meet someone else and date. Sorry, folks but that is reality.

I hope you are off with WS now for that weekend, NC letter sent... I agree with others that "family" time is OK right now. That is what he lost from going to OW. I read once in Wallerstein that men who divorce lose an important role in their life, that of "Head of Household". I think going to the football game is a small attempt on his part in reclaiming that role. I would enjoy that for the moment- you will have time for romance later. Frankly, he may be sick of romance right now- he went for that with OW and look where it got him. Friendship, caring, laughing, family and closeness may mean more to him now.

thinking of you and hoping all goes well.

Espoir:

Your post was helpful and meant loads to me as usual. Thanks!!!!

Last message from him tonight: "I look forward to seeing you tomorrow."

[ September 04, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Duh, I was going to post but forgot my promise.
So I won't say anything but have fun.
God bless, LouLou

Good luck Mimi. I'm happy for you!

NW

Mimi, we are here for you no matter what happens. Please keep us posted!

Mimi,

Hoping and praying this is a rewarding and productive weekend.

We await your recap...hopeful and believing this can and will work!

ISG

Guys:

I have so much to report. I don't even know where to begin. Will share the highlights.

There was lots of drama on Friday. WS did not change his cell no. after OW got NC letter. She did not comply with it and started calling him right away, leaving 11 voicemail messages which he listened to. I think he must have wanted to know what her response would be. He shared most of them with me. She failed his test. She said awful things like "I will be F%%^^% tonight; I will destroy you,etc." I did hear him call some of his business associates to warn them that she might call. He did finally change the number so that there's no way now for her to reach him. He has closed his old office and does not have voicemail. Now he will have to call her to make contact.

For me, life is 10 times better like this, with him, than it was in PLAN B. I feel more complete.

He seems like himself. Does not seem to be in withdrawal like he was last time. Says that he began to withdraw from her about a month ago. He does not know our lingo...Plan B, etc. Wants me to know that the key was getting to spend more time with her. He states he realized how she really is and it astounded him. Things like how she cursed at her mother, how she treated her daughter, how narcissistic she is, how she liked the abnormality of their relationship and on and on. This indicates the value and importance of PLAN B, guys. There was lots of this talk about her on Friday. No discussion of her on Saturday. That was good because I had a hard time holding back on making negative remarks about her. When I did yesterday, it was a mistake. I could tell he wanted to take up for her. Not because of caring for her but because of the bad reflection it is on him to have been with such a sleazy, awful person. That's been hard for me to come to terms with. The H that I knew to have a relationship with a person like her.

He described the R as being like an ADDICTION . He actually used this word. He states that's why he went back last time. He liked the feeling that the A gave him. When I tried to talk to him about how difficult withdrawal would be, he claims to have already begun work on the withdrawal and wants me to have confidence in him that he can do it. There's a real issue of wanting me to believe in him, that he has made a decision to be with his family, that he is committed to his marriage, etc. We will see...

He continues to be very much sexually attracted to me. That has definitely not been a problem. One of her messages to him though, little does she know, was "You'll be thinking about me when you are with her". I think it was probably the other way around. He liked the admiration that she provided. I have to work on being able to authentically meet that need. That's the main one that I will have problems with and the main one that I think she provided. I learned that she also recently goofed though by buying him a hair rejuvenation kit in response to his balding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He said that he was really insulted by that. He realizes now that much of her admiration of him was phony.

Yesterday he did fess up to how he felt that he was not "authentic" in trying to be such a GOOD GUY. I guess he wanted to experiment with being BAD and being around BAD people. In talking about our RECOVERY PLAN, one of his main goals is staying away from "BAD PEOPLE".

He wanted to do family stuff this weekend as indicated before. Be the good guy again? It went really well, though. We thoroughly enjoyed going to our son's football game and then took son out to dinner yesterday. H spent alot of time talking to son.

Now begins work on H adjusting to living in the new home with me. It's kind of awkward. I'm glad though that it is a house that he feels comfortable in living in. That was a good decision.

Will post more later.

Thanks for being there for me over the past months. I will continue to need you. I realize that a lot of important and essential work is just beginning.

[ September 08, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Oh, Mimi, You don't know how happy I am for you!!
Keep up the good work, the road to recovery may have some bumps but you'll get through it!
I'm starting the D process today. WH not supporting us and anger is out of control. Check out my thread if you get a chance. Recovery time takes precedent though!!
I'll be watching!

Mimi, this is wonderful news! It sounds like he is really committed this time. I see no red flags here at all. Doubly nice is that he seems to understand the psychology of the affair and knows where he stands.

How hard it must be for you to sit there and say nothing about the OW. It is more than promising that he already sees her in a very negative light. That will probably get much worse the farther he gets from this.

Does she know how to get ahold of you?

great news!

well done Mimi for travelling this difficult road and getting so far. You still have hard work to do but you have reached a big milestone.

I feel proud of you if that doesn't sound crazy about someone you've never seen or met!

You are giving all of us in this awful position hope.

S.

Mimi, congratulations! I'm happy things are turning around and the light is coming through for your H.
As for Ow hurting him, if necessary, put a Restraining order against her and see if it can include calling his clients, trying to harm his work.
I'm sure this will fade with time though, and most people who transact business with your H couldn't care less as they already obviously know and like him. Other than they would hate her harrassing them.
Sounds like your H took great care in closing his office, and now changing cell number.
Glad you picked a home that you both will enjoy and feel comfortable in.
You did a great job on all this Mimi. You have much strength in you. I would only wish I could be as strong as you've been and able to follow all the successful rules.
I'd have a hard time not knocking OW. You truly are a great lady!
LouLou

Yes, Yes, Yes! Damn, I'm happy for you, mimi.
You deserve this.
And you have given a bunch of us Plan B'ers new hope. Thank you.

Mimi,

I tried to post to you last night, but it disappeared in cyberblackhole-land!

I am so delighted for you. Those of us still in Plan B are holding your success up as a beacon. If you can do it, by golly, so can we!

But selfishness aside, you have been through it all, and I am really excited for your success. Yes, they say the hard work is just starting, but what a major hurdle you and your H have crossed.

I like the things I am hearing him say. That's the part of the MB/WS script that we all look forward to hearing someday. He really does sound committed to your marriage.

Yay, Mimi! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

MIMI so very happy for you , Take this slow and don't read alot into everything .. JMVHO give him time to settle in , and my H told me the same thing that the withdrawl process was before he came home .

WELL congrats women , it gives hope to many !!!!!!

OW called my office today 5 times. Tried to get my direct number from my secretary on 3 occasions. Secretary said I'll put you through to her voicemail but OW didn't leave a message. Secretary said that she called back and demanded to know if I was at work, sounding B**&&chy. OW caught me finally with me not knowing it was her on the line. I was so shocked I could hardly talk because this woman who tried to destroy me addresses me as if we are friends. She says: "Hi "my name", this is N. How are you?" I'm shaking as I type this. I should have said "Wonderful". She goes on to say that she wants to get a message to my H to get some stuff from him. I say, "I don't have anything to talk to you about" and then I hang up. She then calls my secretary back immediately wanting my direct line. I haven't heard from her again. YUK!!! I hate her!!

Stay tuned .... she'd not done yet. Don't leave your car outside. Garage it. Do you know anyone who is a detective or investigator? You need to stay vigilent.

Pep

Good thing. H sounds angry that she is bothering me, calling to ask me "Am I alright?" and saying that I may have to call security.

She will have to be smart enough to go to public records to find out where I live. I do put my car in the garage. I recently got a new car, FWH's idea, so I don't think she knows what I drive. Hopefully, she can't round up enough money to get her own detective. One of her messages to my H was, "Too bad you didn't help me more financially when we were together". She's showing who she really is, isn't she?

Mimi,I am not very familiar with your situation but I never forgotten how much you had said to my WH Blah that he sounded so much like your WH, I read a couple of the responses in your thread, I think that OW sounds as insane as Blah's. She had called my work(she found the # from Blah's cell, I am very sure of it,she called my work the very first time Blah had his first official NC with the NC letter & changed all the contact #s emails.
That was Aug 02)She had called & emailed me many times but Blah never believed that, Blah trusted her over me for the longest time;once she called to scream at me why did I change my cell# and shut Blah out? I had moved out then & not wanting to be IN the game they were playing. OW freaked because Blah feared rejection & doing the opposite could bring Blah to me? She acted as if she were so understanding that she can kept sleeping with Blah and told Blah & me to patch things up and work on the M...now Blah should know
better..maybe he would never know???

OWs are thoughtless;deceitful & they are definitely fear of the TRUTH...look at Blah's OW's ugly truth..hang in there, take care of you.

Mimi,how ignorant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I was( self-centered)
Congratulations...hope your recovery goes well, I am happy for you, I envy you though your WH "was" like Blah except Blah is still Blah...no remorse YET..

Much Aloha. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Wangi,
My H is still not completely out of the hot water. I realize that I still don't trust him. He was out of place a few hours ago. He has since called me and confirmed that he was at the gym, thinking that he told me that he was there. He's legit but it made me realize how anxious I still am about all of this.

OW did this to me by calling me today. I allowed her to have that power over me and it worked.

Later, you guys.

Mimi, stay strong...OK.
Once the trust is broken, it takes a long long time to regain as it is the most precious and most difficult.

"It is good to have an end to the journey towards;but it is the journey that matters,in the end" ~Ursula K. LeGuin

Much Aloha

Mimi, you can get a restraining order against her for harrassment and should stop her calls unless she wants to be arrested. My daughters RO told xh he couldn't call her at all!
She is, of course, trying to get your H to talk to her. Don't fall for it.
Best to you both, LouLou

Mimi,

If you are comfortable w/your HR dept. inform them. You may need to have your vehicle kept under survillence (no joke - take it from someone who knows).

Document what has happened. The fact that she knows your work# means she may feel empowered and she may try to control you. You did right by hanging up. Let some around you become your support group. These types of OWs can turn vicious on a dime. Always be careful. Not paranoid, just careful.

If your HR dept is experienced, they will know you are not trying to make trouble. Many HRs have dealt with these types of issues and can help guide you. They may even ask you to do a writeup or give a description of the OW. Don't tell your H all that you do with them, at least not yet. You don't know if he will inform the OW she is risking it by contacting you. In fact, the more she tries to contact you, the better your case will be. Involve the right personnel, have it documented and it won't be long before she crosses over that legal line and then, they (HR) can take action. Even the police can do so if they feel she is being a threat to your personal safety.
JMHO.

take care,
L.

Mimi, you said you have a new car and she doesn't know what you drive. It's not beyond this woman to stake out your work to see when you come and what you're driving.
If she does call again, I'd record her threats! Definitely get a restraining order. This is beyond your personal safety as well, as she's trying to get you fired!
The HR advice is also good, but this means airing the dirty laundry which is another painful thing for you do to.
What irks me is we BW's suffer the fall out long after the A is over.
Seems UH's get the fun, we get the hazardous clean up duty without hazardous pay!
GRRRRR Keep your head about you and don't give her an inch.
LouLou

All remains quiet on the OW front today.

H mailed a discount card back to her today. Said that it was a trigger, wanted it out of his possession. I suggested that he throw it away, that it would reinforce her calling me. He thought it would cause more "animosity" for him to keep it. Seemed to feel that it was special that she let him use it and he thinks that's what she was calling about. I don't buy it. She just wanted some continued contact and influence. He says that's the last piece.

He's been wanting to maintain contact with me all day long, calling me almost hourly. The talking has felt good. There's a lot of business around integrating his secret world into our world together now. For example, a goal today was for me to have access to his secret savings and checking accounts. His schedule is flexible so he has been emptying boxes and being available for repairs around the house. He calls to tell me his accomplishments. All of this feels good and right.

He seems real concerned about me being out and about. Wants me to be careful just like you guys are saying.

Will keep you posted.

Mimi,

Doing the "Happy Dance" along with all your other MB friends here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

However, a word of caution from a major worry-wart: DO NOT think she cannot "find" your new house just because she doesn't have the address. All that is required is a visit on-line OR to your county Property Appraiser's office. All she needs is the Name of the owner (that's YOU!), and the information is public.

Best of luck. Please take care. We are all here for you both.

And God Bless,

Mimi, hope all is going well. Keep us updated! You know we live vicariously through you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's just me, you guys, don't get excited! Hopefully, she will come back soon and update us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi,

I have a lot going on, so I will catch up next week. But I had to say: WELCOME TO RECOVERY!

Now the bad news...the work is JUST beginning. Believe me. You will have a honeymoon period...and then it will be time to clean up the mess you two made over all of this, and all of your marriage. So, get ready. He has done the first part of what was needed. Now dont make the mistake of not doing the second.

And that is...get a plan of recovery together, as outlined here. And both of you agree to it. If me and Mrs. MM had done this, we wouldnt be struggling with many of the things we are right now (we had another Steve session today...more on Monday about that).

So, do not wait. Dont think you can pick it up later. Get it done now, in the honeymoon period. Get counseling with Steve for both of you. He will get the plan that is needed.

Now that I rained on your parade...I just wanted to say that I knew you could do it. Your husband will thank you one day for going so far for him. He will come to truly understand what he has in you...and he will never doubt why he came home.

In His arms.

H wants me to look at a movie with him so have to rush. That's good news.

Having issues with my son who is making every effort to get H to leave again.

Had my own session with Steve on Friday which was very helpful. Steve thinks we are on the right road and H is sincere.

OW found the house on Friday. Asked the yard man if it is H's house. Yard man did not give her the info. Have not heard from her again but at the least she will be doing drivebys.

Spent all day today with H. It has been great.

More later.

Mimi, time for RO against OW. Cover you, H and family for sure.
LouLou

Lou,
Don't I have to wait until she does something?
What's your thinking about her?

H has been indicating that she is an alcoholic. Yesterday morning during our walk he said, "She's probably started drinking about now". He attributed the drinking to her "guilt" over the fact that what they were doing "was wrong". I just call it alcoholism. Sometimes she did not make it to work on Monday mornings. He said that on Sunday mornings he would usually go jogging in the woods for a couple of hours and come back and find her using. YUK!!! Being with her on the weekends must have been lovely. He has implied that a good thing was that she was "uninhibited". YUK AGAIN!!!!

[ September 15, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, has she not already harrassed you on your job? And driving by your house? That is considered stalking I believe. And a very legitimate reason for a RO. Has she made any verbal threats? use them if she has.
Ask at the court house or of a police officer. I believe you already have enough reason to put one in affect.
I certainly hope so.
LouLou

I just wanted to share what I have learned in hopes that this may help some of you. People here have been so helpful to me that I want to give back some of what I have received.

These are my suggestions:

DO A GREAT PLAN A: Steve H. called it MY PLAN. I tried to figure out what ENs that I was not addressing in my marriage. I worked on these problems. Making these changes was mainly good for me as a person but it also has been an essential ingredient in my marriage today. These changes have become a part of me so that now that my H is back it is not forced. It is natural for me to go to the gym, watch what I eat, cook dinner for the family, consider his point of view, give him attention, etc. These are some of the things that I was not doing prior to D-Day. Of course, I am not perfect. The fact that I am doing enough of these things compensates for my weak points. What I have not been able to accomplish continues to be our primary marital problems. The point is WORK ON YOUR PLAN.

ACCEPT THAT YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO TO PLAN B: Folks on here told me this but I did not want to believe it. For my H, the A was too addictive for PLAN A to be enough. But true to the Harley text, he has told me PLAN A caused him to think about me a lot while he was with her. Even if he did not want to, he remembered the me that I was during my PLAN A.

THE MORE TIME WS SPENDS WITH THE OP, THE BETTER: This is what I'm repeatedly hearing from FWS. Prior to PLAN B, they mainly met on the the weekends, maintaining the fantasy. When I was out of the picture, he really got to know her. Luckily in my case, she seems to be a nutty, alcoholic. He can't find too many good things to say about her as a real person. She was lots of fun but day-to-day she was not able to do the job of wifey that he needs to make it. Add my SF, physical attractiveness, domestic stuff during PLAN A, he's in love with me again. She's not meeting any needs. He's left addicted to her, hoping and wishing for the drug to take effect again. Let me know if I'm not making this clear because it is an important point.

WS DOES NEED A ROAD MAP BACK HOME (as suggested by Espoir and MM): This is the transition piece that we have been talking about in my thread towards the end of the A. My WS stated that he wanted to end the A, come home months ago but needed to feel that there was a way out FOR HIM . If there was not a way out, he thinks he would have given up and just stayed in his mess. I would imagine that the WAY OUT will look different for different people. For him, he wanted a nice place to stay. A refuge continues to be important to him. Also, he is very proudful and needed to be sure that he would not be humiliated by me, my family or the kids. This all can be spelled out specifically in one or more PB letters. I wrote a couple of letters, I think. My FWS referred back to those. Also, I opened up lines of communication in the end regarding my terms for reconciliation.

HANGING IN THERE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON: Regardless of the outcome of this for me, I am happier with myself. It's unbelievable to me that I am saying this. I am a stronger, more self-confident person. So even if my H goes back to the OW, God forbid, I now will not take it as a rejection of me. I know that I did everything I could possibly do to save my marriage. Now it's on him. If he leaves, it will be his loss. He knows this about me now and has grown to respect me.

These are my thoughts for now. Hope this helps somebody.

[ September 15, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

It does.

Mimi

Maybe ou could take your last post and make it into a thread of it's own .... it's too important to be lost in the middle of this very long thread....

I think "recovery" and "jfo" boards need it's own copy of your last post as well. It's that good.

Pep

Thank you for this post.
DO A GREAT PLAN A:
I did what I think was an excellent Plan A. Go to the gym more often, lost weight, go to IC. I am an improved version of myself.
ACCEPT THAT YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO TO PLAN B:
I have now been in Plan B for four weeks. After six months in a good Plan A I needed to go to Plan B as much for myself as for my M.
THE MORE TIME THE WS SPENDS WITH THE OP, THE BETTER:
WW has been living with her mother for the past four months, today she is moving into her own apartment. This move may allow WW and OM to spend more time together and it is good to hear that you, like many MBs who have posted, think this is a good thing.
Hopefully I am on the same path you have taken.

Now about the road map. My Plan B has been solid with NC. When your WH decided that he would considering returning, what indications did he give you and how? Were there any concessions you were willing to make in order to bring him home, or did you simply state your conditions? And now that he is back are there any compromises he has asked from you?
I have followed your thread from the start and you did an excellent job, getting great advice from others (especially MM on Plan B). Whatever the final outcome you can be proud of yourself. Thank you for staying here and helping those of us who need advice and inspiration. For now you deserve to wear the crown as Queen of Plan B.

I'm not sure I know how to move the post.

You guys, tell me how or feel free to do it for me.

Remember, I'm the Spoiled Brat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 15, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi, Bravo! Great points that everyone should see. Could you start up a new thread with these points so others can see?

Mimi, are you ok? Have you seen any sign of OW since the Friday incident with the lawn man?

Mimi,

I am thrilled that everything seems to be going so well for you, after such a long, hard time. It sounds like you are on solid ground finally with your H, and he is lucky to have you... and hopefully he realizes it! You have a great attitude.

As for your son, you may need to sit him down and have a serious talk with him. I wouldn't let things fester. Make it clear that although H has made some mistakes, he is DAD and he is back in the family. Also make it clear that it is your M and it is not your son's place to draw conclusions about it. Let him know that you appreciate his support and that the best thing is for all of you to come closer together as a FAMILY.

Best of luck, Mimi!

Bump for LilSis.

LG

And this is just SOME of the PLAN B thread....there was a previous pages and pages of a PLAN A thread...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Mimi:

I picked this thread up by sorting on the "replies" column in the GQII section.

This one was about #25 on the list.

LilSis's is first. After Idiotville, 1,2,3. Thndr&lightning, TKO and Grays Campfire.

Followed by Heartsore.

What got me to pull it up?

The middle of the first post.

To paraphase: "Mimi fought with WH, and struggled." But OW did not intervene. And nobody went to jail....

OMG!

No wonder you are so invested in LilSis. The story line is so similar...

And you have been great to her.

I wanted to thank you for that. We may have disagreed on some individual things, but you were always giving LilSis excellent advice.

Keep it up.

LG

I'm jealous that Sis got to HER..I tried more than once..but H stood in the way...

AND...there was the time that I was gonna DRIVE to her house and my H hid my glasses...

It's a BLESSING..could have been a TRAGIC ending..I was THAT ENRAGED...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

On another note, I wonder where ESPOIR is....SHE WAS WONDERFUL to me..

ESPOIR, if you are out there lurking, come in and say hello...

WOW.

I'm working my way through this. mimi, I never would have guessed... Uncertainty and confusion...from mimi?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess I had this image of someone who knew exactly what to do, no hesitation. It seems as if the clarity that you have now is not what you experienced in the midst of it...isn't that the way life is? Knowlege and wisdom comes only with experience.

Recognizing that, I feel like someone with a blindfold on, with a shape in front of me. It feels like something very familiar, smells like something familar, sounds like something familiar. Those with knowledge and wisdom (no blindfold) are telling me that it is NOT the familiar thing that I believe it to be. However, I am resistant to abandoning my own instincts, in spite of the voices around me and other evidence that supports what those voices say.

I think BS's probably all experience this in some way...right? And we probably all come around in our own way, in our own time. I'm still working on it, perhaps being more stubborn than most.

Thanks so very much, LG and mimi.

Quote

It seems as if the clarity that you have now is not what you experienced in the midst of it...isn't that the way life is? Knowlege and wisdom comes only with experience.

Girl, I've been trying to tell you that I've WALKED IN YOUR SHOES!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I can't even bear to read this thread again...SO VERY PAINFUL...

But feel free to ask me questions and I'll TRY to answer...

I was just in this thread SKIMMING..I do need to stay out of here but...look at this comment OF MINE that I found...

Quote

I might get too discouraged and depressed if I stay on here. That's what happened to me yesterday. I have to keep going and be somewhat optimistic.

SOUND FAMILIAR, SIS?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LOTS of it sounds familiar, mimi. Too familiar. It is depressing to me as well, to read of your struggles. It should be inspiring, but it's not...at least not today. It's just painful.

I can certainly see why you need to keep out of here. That feeling that you get going back in...is probably what I feel right now, and feel every day...right?

Shoo me away, would you? Until I'm in a better place.

SHOO..but WORK ON getting to a BETTER PLACE...for your OWN SAKE...

It's definitely NASTY, UGLY and STINKY in AFFAIR LAND...

But keep in mind, though, that NOW..I'VE NEVER, EVER BEEN HAPPIER....

this needed to be bumped

Mimi:

Just another bump.

I notice who had the last post before this one.

HHMMM....

Any of the Killer Bees looking for additional insight?

This UPS delivery brought to by LG

Please sign here.

Checkout this WONDERFUL POST from MORTARMAN to ME:

Quote

Mimi,

I was headed to your thread right after I posted with Learnin. Obviously you read what I wrote to her in regards to Plan B.

Hang in there. My Plan B roughly took 6-7 weeks before there was a noticable crack. Now that my wife is home, I found out that during those 6-7 weeks, things were indeed reaching "critical mass." This is why once you go to Plan B...DO NOT BACK DOWN! It will hurt you and cause you to have to go back through withdrawal. And it will make your husband think that you are not serious the next time. He sounds like there may be cracks in is armor. Dont think about them together alone right now (easier said than done!). Understand that now that you have done Plan A, and have forced him into Plan B, you have put him in a no win situation. He has an "either/or" scenario now. Either you or her. And since you said she is an exact opposite of you, the contrast will be readily apparent (my wife's OM was exact opposite of me).

Look, you have been married a long time. Your husband is used to certain things. He will expect her to do them also, and do them the way he likes them done. But guess what? She cant! up until now, they had a common "enemy"...that being you. So they laid down the differences that they dont like about each other to confront the assault on their relationship by you. But now that you are in Plan B, there is no enemy to their relationship. So, for the next few weeks/months, they will begin to be truly alone with each other...warts and all. And the last thing that your WH remembers of you is your Plan A.

Just like I told Learnin, the cycle will begin. OW will begin to LB. He will not be able to come to you to make up for what she is not giving him. So, he will begin to try to "change" her...or worse yet...to LB her because he is angry that she cant do it the way he likes. Of course, this LBing will cause her to back up and get angry and LB him. And her new LBs will only make him want to change things more...or pull back from her. And all of the time in this cycle, he has the memory of YOU. You are no longer around so he can invent his view of you. He is left with the reality of your Plan A, as he sits alone in Plan B fog.

So, he will begin to try to call, or stop by for some stupid reason. He will try to get near you, and if he does, he will try to get you to LB, so he cna justify and feel better about the mess that is now his relationship with the OW. But guess what? You are not even in the cycle. You dont respond to him, talk to him nor meet ANY of his needs. He is now alone in a relationship that is increasingly becoming worse than anything he thought the two of you had. My wife said at one point right before I went to Plan B, that she would prefer to go back in time and go back to the worse years of our marriage than to go through what she was going through. Why do you think that over 97% of these relationships do not work out?

But Mimi, now is the time to stay out of it. I disagree somewhat with what was stated above about not "hiding" from your WH. Now, while I agree that you shouldnt go to undue lengths to stay away from him, since you have a child together, I also believe that it is better for you if you have very little contact, even visual. It will only cause you to get upset and go into withdrawal again. And it will give him the opportunity to have new memories where he might get the good Mimi of the Plan A out of his head.

I think that if you have to not go to something that he is attending, then dont go. When I went to Plan B, my wife and I did not attend the school functions atthe same time. We did nothing associated with Christmas together. Several times, she wanted to come by or catch up with us when we went out to eat...and I ALWAYS denied her.

Plan B has to be air tight. Since you have a child, you still must have some contact. Make it ONLY about the kids, and only things that you HAVE to do together right now. There will be plenty of time in the future, if you are to divorce, to find a comfortable way to deal with each other. Right now, he needsto continue to be as uncomfortable as possible. And you have to get as comfortable as possible. The only way to do that is stay on course, stay away from him...and let the plan do its work.

The cracks you see are real. This is not the time to give in. Stay the course. I think you are beginning to see the beginning of the end.

In His arms.

HE WAS EXACTLY RIGHT!!!

Mimi,

As I am preparing for Plan B, I want to thank you so much for bumping this up!

I am going to read it from beginning to end, over and over!

Your Welcome...

My Bad! LG--+ should have learned by now to read a feW posts above!

Thanks sweetie! You know, I always give my UPS guy a cake at Christmas. Let me know where to have yours delivered!

Quote

AND...there was the time that I was gonna DRIVE to her house and my H hid my glasses...

LMAO...I was going drive to her apartment to kick some tail and WH took my keys from me...then I just whaled on him for awhile...

Oh, the craziness of the A world...

LMAO...YOU'RE GREAT MIMI! Thanks for sticking around and helping us "newbies." Or dare I say I'm old now! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You know I lvoe you!

Bump

For No Where To Turn.

LG

Here it is, Chai..I found it..this is just the PLAN B THREAD..PLAN A is lost in MBers' History...

Mimi,

Thanks so much. This is what I was looking for. I need to read this and learn from it. I did a major screw up today.

I'll post about it...

BUMPING UP FOR Z...to prepare for PLAN B...

Here it is...YUCK..

bump for me

Hello everyone,
I want to thank you for reading this and your opinion is very much appreciated.
I made a decision with my wife for her to go to work in Saudi Arabia as a nurse. I made this decision against my true feelings, one of those that we make in the state of intemacy. I gave up my own happieness for hers. we made this decision to help us financially. Ita has been almost three months that she is gone, and now our financial need has been lifted and I asked her to return. She replied to me that she has a commitment to the job to finish one year and then she will return. there is really no obligation for her to stay there, this is her personal choice. when i asked why she replied that she has made a commitment to the job and she wants to keep that commitment for her personal integrity and pride.
We have been married for less than a year and I feel so left out and abandoned. I know she is committed to our marriage, but I dont know how to make her see how much what she is doing is damaging to our marriage.
please help.
thanks
Alex

Working my way through Mimi's thread... bumping it so I can find it tomorrow.

Quote

Here it is...YUCK..

Mimi....

It is not YUCK when all the newbie's can learn from a master.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the learning "manual"...lol

Your favorite "apprentice",

Not2fun

Another good one for the ones working the plans.

Bumping up again for KLD!!!!!

One of the best things about my day is rating this 5 stars and it showing up 5 stars....

It may be a YUK, but it was something that helped me survive in the darkest days.

Thanks Mimi, you are my treasure

Here you are....

and last but NEVER EVER least....bumping Miss MIMI

A good read for all Plan B'ers....

not2fun

Bumping for Scotland......

the ever lovable yet tough (and "I" know that one...) Mimi,,,,we miss ya lady...

not2fun

Not, I'm so glad you bumped this. This is the thread that turned my spirit around and kept me focused on G-ds plan. Mimi's struggles, her actions, her bravery are simply nothing short of a miracle.

It's Christmastime and I know her anniversary is coming up, I think it's 7 years of recovery and she is doing the deal, at least in my heart I think she is.

But oh Miss Mimi, do we MISS and LOVE you so much.

May G-ds blessings be filling your life and you KNOW how much you helped and impacted so many of us.

Bumping back to the top for Annemarie......

(((Queenie))),

yep, Mimi is coming up on her anniversary..... Isn't it amazing how even when the VETS do move on the newbies STILL learn from them??.....

Not2fun

bump because I miss Mimi so very much and this story is so inspiring...

bumping for any new BW since this is what helped me at first too.

Mimi, Thanx for your story.

I just finished this thread, and I am so encouraged by Mimi's story. I got so anxious a couple of times reading through the thread, hoping and praying her WH wasn't going to disappoint her again. I am so glad he didn't.

What initially got to me with her thread is how her WH would say things to her about coming back and the A being temporary. My WH does the same thing, and it makes NO sense to me. My WH told me this morning that he wants to come back home but doesn't know how to get away from OW. I do think his OW is a bit on the crazy side (perhaps borderline personality) but if your wife and children are worth it, don't you figure out a way? Is it really that hard? I guess I know the answer is yes, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, Mimi's thread provided a lot of guidance and encouragement. I feel very fortunate to have found it and read it.

Congrats Mimi!

bumping for Hitch....

Not2fun

there is always hope, i think, if WH vacillates between BW and OW because eventually, if BW has the patience to endure this, WH will come back to the M.
blessing

I hope so, I really do.

I can't find the list of successful Plan Bers?? Could anyone provide the list again?

Harmony (now)

This is the thread about taking OP to special places...

Originally Posted by lupolady

Mimi,
I'm in AWE of how things are going for you!!! Keep it up. Lots of us praying for you here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Someone mentioned that WSes often take OPes to special places of WS and BS. What is that all about? She said the attempt is to make the "memory into a nightmare'. <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I have another theory. Well, really, not me, but Bob Steinkamp.....ever heard of him? Well, he and his W run RejoiceMinistries in Pompano Beach, FL. He was the WS, 16 years ago! Now they help others (like us) navigate through this mess.

He writes stories, books, about the travels a WS (and sometimes the BS) takes through life as a WS (and sometimes as the BS). I strongly urge you to go read my thread on Prayer Requests entitled "Prodigals DO Come Home"

There are quotes from Bob's book by that title. If you do not have this book, and you are the BS, you NEED it!! Anyways, while waiting for your copy, please go read the thread. There's a chapter in the book explaining exactly WHY the WS's take the OP to "our" special places, or do "our" special things.......

I'm not gonna re-write it over here, cause it's posted over there, 2nd - it's late, and I don't want to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and final reason: without the book in front of me, I don't want to misquote any part of it.....but suffice it to say, Mimi, that it's all part of the WS mentality (and we ALL know about that, don't we?). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I goofed in that phone call last week. I probably gave him too much hope. He realized that I had not given up. Why else would he then take her on a trip right after that conversation?<hr /></blockquote>Forget about WHY he took that trip with her, but I agree about the other stuff. DO NOT ENGAGE in any conversations with him while in Plan B! Plan B is for YOU. You would have peace of mind, not thinking aobut his trip, his mindset, his plans, etc. You can concentrate on your future.....It's HIS TIME to "wonder" what is happening to his life....and to you. If you give him information - any information, then technically, you're not in Plan B, are you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And, yes, you probably gave him hope to keep stringing you along, while having vacations with <her>. This is why Plan B is no contact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hopefully as I proceed with moving and the house sale he will realize that I am really moving on.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, hopefully, he will. In the meantime, enjoy this!! It sounds so exciting!! Especially the way God is leading, and clearing the way for things to just work out!!!

When my WH left, I went to the Lord, and said, "Lord, I'm alone now. No H. YOU will have to be my H. YOU will have to provide for me...."
Mimi, He always did!! I never missed one payment on anything. I never ran out of anything, or lacked manpower or any help for anything my H normally had taken care of!!!! God is so faithful, if we call on Him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm continuing to have these opposing feelings and viewpoints....it almost seems impossible that I can forget and forgive him for what he is doing. <hr /></blockquote>Don't let your self think about this now. Satan will take this and have a heyday with it. Keep yourself strong, and your children will see how to handle adversity thrown at them without warning.

See, I got to a place where I realized God had made ME strong!! I mean, I alwasy was, but it was in MY strength. He wanted me to be strong IN HIM. Now, I think I am.....the difference now is that I know I am leaning on the Rock. And that the day will come when my H will need that ROCK. And the only place he will find it is with ME.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />over 6 months since D-Day, I still can't conceive of how my H can be maintaining a life and a relationship with someone else. It can't possibly be the man I have known. I can't understand how he can be doing that.<hr /></blockquote>I can go there in my head, too. Mimi, don't let yourself go there!!! These thoughts are of satan, to get your focus off God, to make you believe it is impossible that he will ever leave her, or come home. Remember, nothing is impossible with God! We can't understand WHAT is making them act this way, but it doesn't matter!! When the time is right, GOD WILL INTERVENE, AND THEN THE MEN WE KNOW, THE MEN WE MARRY WILL RETURN!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Given that he grew up with me, since the age of 18 and he is now almost 50, so much of him is part of me....so much of my routine of life was developed in my relationship with him. She's thinking that his routines are all him and she is in awe of him. That means that she is partly in awe of me. In other words, I helped prepare him for her. Does this make sense? I believe that we are of ONE FLESH as GOD DIRECTED<hr /></blockquote>Wow!! I think this is most profound!!! WOW!!!!
Anyway, think of this (also from Steinkamp's book), SHe is trying to "fit in" with his way of doing things.....Or make him over in HER ways. Meanwhile, HE is trying to make her into a duplicate of YOU, since he IS a part of you, and has done the things the way YOU TWO have done them for all these years.

problem is, they don't fit!! Never will. Cause he is YOUR One-flesh mate, not hers!!! SHE is the counterfeit. He is only trying to fit with her, to do everything HER way, or change her to HIS way, cause he's trying to recreate his life with you, with her. Does THAT make any sense?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The buyers of the house want to close ASAP. I would pay rent here until the closing of my house which would save me a mortgage payment here and at my new house. I can negotiate a small rental payment.

The realtor tells WS this and he flips, stating "Why are they rushing US ? WE were supposed to have one more month before the closing?" He is refusing to agree to this.
He hasn't called me yet. Is he now realizing that this is for real? He's losing his house and potentially his marriage? He's trying to stall, right, because he knows that he has to make a decision and get off the fence.<hr /></blockquote>Yep, I believe you've got it right.
Remember, you have to do what is best FOR YOU right now.....don't get sucked into his game, into his rationalizations, into his panic.

yes, his Freudian slips were showing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He was forgetting for a few moments that he wants NOTHING to do with yoU!!! He was panicking and seeing how it was all going to go away from him. POOF!! And you'd be gone. He sees his life with you slipping through his fingers, and he's starting to panic. ANOTHER reason, I believe, he went on the trip with her next day (trying to recreate his life, with a counterfeit), so it might still "feel normal"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My plan is to proceed with the closing ASAP. That's what's best for me. That's what I do in PLAN B.<hr /></blockquote>ABSOLUTELY Right!

You're doing great, Mimi. I really haven't posted much at all, cause you're getting great advice from so many other, smarter people.

I just wanted to share about the "counterfeit" thing, with OP taking our place, and silly WS's, trying to re-create a life. Funny thing, isn't it? They dont' go make a NEW life, they try to recreate the OLD ONE!!! The one they don't want anymore..............

Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

bump for Meggin and any other Plan B folks!