LouLou:

I'm still considering your POV and may still make a gesture on our 27th anniversary. I am struggling with this issue.

I talked to the piano teacher again at length tonignt and have thought about my few conversations with him. Despite what I have stated in my PLAN B letters, my WS does continue to want reassurance that I love him. I remember in my last face to face talk with him, that last time when we had SF, he seemed convinced that she is the only one who loves him. He did not give the indication that he loved her, just liked the feeling she gave him regarding her care for him. I remember how unbelievable that was to me. How could she have convinced him of that and how have I not shown him love all these years or does he believe that he is unlovable?? I really believe that he didn't feel loved enough by me when he came back home. I didn't give him whatever that feeling is that she gives him. I do believe that he is not getting that same sense from her now. It seemed so incredible to me that the piano teacher knew this years ago. He expressed a lot of feelings to her that he only recently has shared with me. I wasn't listening to him before; OW was listening. He has said over and over that the A started because he "needed somebody to talk to" and music teacher said "He needed somebody to talk to". She volunteered this information. I did not tell her that my WS had been saying this.
That blew my mind that she knows him so well and they have not really talked in years.

I think something is going to happen in the next few days. WS has something brewing but who knows? OW has her spell.

I'm planning to schedule a session with Steve H. tomorrow. He is straightforward and innovative in his viewpoints regarding my WS. He does not stick to the firm rules of PLAN A or PLAN B. In fact, he never used those terms with me. I guess he's much more aware of the individual issues in each case.

I will keep you all posted and thanks for your interest in helping me,LouLou.

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

I am headed back tomorrow from my 2 week training exercise, so I havent been able to follow along. So, forgive me if I am not up to speed.

I too have counseled with Steve Harley. I have read all of the stuff from the Harley's. And as you know, my wife is home now and we are working on our recovery.

That being said...it may be time to break out the 2x4 on you (and maybe even LadyLou...sorry girl, most of the time we agree...but Mimi is way to close to screw up now).

Correct me if I am wrong...you sent a Plan B letter, right? It said NC between you and him until OW is gone for good, right? What's the problem here?

Your WH KNOWS the way back. As you said, he remembers your great Plan A. OOOHHHHH how he remembers. Each day that the OW continues to LB and look like the ugly toad, is each day that he can remember his life with you, and the time where you showed him his future with you (Plan A). That is the whole Plan A idea. To put in his mind what can be. But, as Steve Harley has told me before, rarely can you do just Plan A. Most of the time, it requires Plan B to bring them out of the fog.

You know the jargon, so I wont repeat it (about saving your love for him, your husband gets stuck having his needs met by OW, etc). All of this is absolutely true.

So, Mimi has done a great Plan A. Then, she goes and does a reasonably well Plan B. And predictably, your WH is following the script and being led out of the fog. Why is this hapening? Seriously, ask yourself why these events are now happening. Try to put yourself in your husbands shoes. It goes something like this...

Now fully in Plan B, originally (early on), it was a relief to have the constant reminder of his failings (you) in front of him. It was nice to think that he was finally going to be able to be alone with her and maybe see what happens. But, from the moment this quiet time started, something began not to feel right. Left to their own devices, the two of them begin to let their guard down and show their real selves. There is no longer an outside enemy to their relationship.

But wait a minute. Now that you can look at it from the outside...oopppps, I can see a small crack, an enemy within put in place by Mimi. What is that enemy? It is the combination of Plan A in his mind, and that damned Plan B letter (his way out of the mess). In the back of his mind, a crisis is developing. He has seen Mimi at her best. She has now given him a letter explaining how he can have that again. And now she is gone.

Now, he is truly alone with the OW. And she is now at her "best." Problem is, that nagging feeling in the back of his mind that there is something better back home begins to creep into their relationship. Devious, huh? (One note...ENJOY Plan B! You should absolutely enjoy it. Why? As far as I am concerned, it is payback time. For the hurt, pain...for the loss of control over your own world. In Plan B, the power begins to shift back to the BS...so much so that the WS ends up in a position in the end of almost total submission to the will of the BS...more on that below).

So, he unkowingly has been setup for failure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . And so, it is only a matter of time before things make it to critical mass. In your case, I definitely see the needle in the red zone!

So, due to your devious virus you have put into their relationship (Plan A and B), you have set the timer on the destruction of their relationship. It is about ready to blow.

But wait a minute! Just before your WH and OW are about to be emotionally blown out of the water, you want to save him. Why is that? This is your chance at payback. He made his bed, let him lie in it. Let him feel the FULL brunt of the consequences of his actions. Shoot, I LOVE what Orhid did by sending her husband back when he first inquired.

Now why do I say all of this? First of all, it is good for you. It will help you to feel better by knowing that you werent the only one that got to feel pain here. And the beauty of this, it is HIS actions that are causing his own pain.

The second reason to stay the course is that if you rescue him now, he will have learned nothing. He will not have felt the complete utter despair of the guilt of what he has done, and the knowledge of what he is about to lose. I know you love him Mimi, and most of us want to spare our spouses as much pain as possible.

But Mimi, he NEEDS to hurt. He needs to feel this. He needs to understand EXACTLY what damage hus actions have caused. If you try to help him now, he will learn nothing. And you are doomed to repeat it.

How many of us BSs are going to go back to treating our spouses like we treated them before the A? None, I would guess. Why? Because who the heck wants to go back through this pain again. We will do anything to be the spouses that our spouses need. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MARRIAGES THAT REBUILD AFTER SOMETHING LIKE THIS ACTUALLY END UP STRONGER...IT IS CALLED FEAR OF PAIN. Dr. Harley mentions this on the website here. That once recovery starts, most couples do so with great zeal. Why? Because they want to get as far away from the hurt as possible...and never, ever go back there.

Now, Mimi...your husband isnt stupid (although the choice of an affair, and even the quality of affair partner, may leave his intelligence open to question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). He has read your Plan B letter. He knows the way out. His calls to you, to your son, are cries for help. They are cries for help because he is looking for a way out of his increasing pain anyway he can...except for the only way that you have spelled out. In order to do it your way, he has to fully delve into the pain. He doesnt want to do that.

So, Mimi sends him flowers for the anniversay, of cards, or whatever. And then you spare him the pain. But you are also sparing him the ability to get his life back together. He NEEDS that pain. Sometimes, it isnt love to spare pain. If someone needs a surgery done, there is great pain...but all for that persons good. If you dont get the surgery, you may save some temporary intial pain...but the pain that comes from neglecting what they needed to fix, will come back ten times stronger later.

Mimi, do not spare him the pain. In the middle of my Plan B last December, I made it a point that we would not spend one minute together over Christmas. No family time with her, me and the kids. No sharing of Christmas lists on what to buy the kids. No joint Christmas where we could be together as a family. Nothing. Did it hurt. Sure. But it was the BEST thing I could have done for my marriage.

My wife went off the charts angry when two weeks into Plan B, I would not back down and have a good Christmas together "for the sake of the kids." She went so ballistic that she flung herself at the OM, planned a trip to Florida with the OM over Christmas to meet his family, and actively pushed her situation in order to quickly move her life forward with him.

But all that did was hasten the death of the relationship. The kids were with me Christmas day. The next day, she picked up the kids (since she had by then returned from Florida) and kept them at her apartment for two days. But my kids even said...it wasnt really Christmas. My wife was out of it most of the time, and didnt seem to want to spend much time with them after they opened their presents. She would lay on the couch, and take naps (all of this is very uncharacteristic of her with the kids).

Mimi, her pain had increased. He trip to Florida had been a disaster. She met his family and saw how he acted around them...and didnt like it. She saw how he wasnt being a real dad to his two daughters that were living in Florida with his ex. And one night while there, while they were having sex, the OM called my wife by his ex wife's name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

Her pain was now off the charts. So, after having the kids for two days, she brings them back and wants to talk. I told her that I wasnt going to talk, as was outlined in my PBL. Now, if she was ready to talk NC with OM, then we had something there. She said she needed time, that there was a lot she needed to work through...and couldnt I just be a friend to her and be there for her while she worked it out (gag!)?

Well, NO! That would be what we call ENABELING! I told her OM or MM. I reiterated the PBL...even asking her she needed another copy. She then got angry, saying I never cared for her or her views...that this just proves that I will never be there for her and the changes she has seen in me are false...blah, blah, blah!

I told her "Whatever...honey, you know the way out of this." ANd I turned around and walked back into my house.

For the next 3 weeks, I heard nothing from her. Once or twice a week, she would call or come by to see the kids. I wouldnt talk to her. Just passed the phone to the kids. Or if she was coming to get them, my oldest watched for her and then they ran out to meet her and left with her. I went completely DARK!

Well three weeks later, there is a surprise knock on my door at 8pm at night. It seems my wife has just gotten off work, and wanted to come by to see the kids. So, I let her in, I went into the kitchen and she went downstairs with the kids.

TEN MINUTES later, she comes up (so, she came to see the kids huh?). She wants to talk. She says she wants to discuss some things. I asked what. She started to try to berate me, to get me to engage in a conversation...or an argument iif she could. I told her she had to leave. She asked "What if I dont?" I told her I would call the police. She then said "Well, I guess you are going to have to do that."

So, for the next 4 hours, we sat at my kitchen table while she told me everything, and told me how she wanted to know how to get this all back. I reiterated that she had to have NC with OM...and that she (and then both of us later) needed counseling.

I let her leave without promisisng anything. As a matter of fact, she tried to suck me in again as she went to walk out the door, asking me to give her time. I told her no, that the letter stands. And then I told her that under no circumstances was she to EVER just drop by again. There was a look of surprise in her eyes. Here she thought we had a great conversation, and probably thought she had me back on the reservation and supporting her fence sitting due to our calm conversation (with even some laughter in it). And then I end it by saying nothing has changed, dont drop by again, do not call...until Plan B letter requirements are met.

A week later, she says she in a phone message that she knows she has to end things with OM, even if we do not work out (the first real crack!). I DO NOT RESPOND! Then, she calls and says that she has made an appointment with the same counselor that me and the kids are going to. She asks if I want to do marriage counseling together. I reply back to her that...no, no marriage counseling until we have a marriage. I will go to counseling with her, only in regards to the kids (as they were seeing this counselor also). So, I went to two sessions with her, where she tried to get counselor to enlist me in baking her a large cake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . The counselor didnt...and I didnt. As a matter of fact, after the second time...I refused to go anymore. She could go with the kidso n her own time, and me on mine.

I was playing hardball. Always the same message. It is shortly thereafter, that in the midst of my wife being VERY sick, and OM LBing her and also leaving her sick and alone to go to some job thing out of town, that I got the call saying that she wants to come home and was ending things with him. A week later, she did end it with him...and a few short weeks later, after some counseling, a few dates, and me allowing her to get thru the worst of withdrawal, we moved her home.

I know this has been long Mimi. But I want you to understand. There is only one way through this now. You spelled it out to him. Dont lie to him. Dont tell him NC with OW or else...and then back down. Keep your word.

I agree with you though. I think you are probably days away from a resolution (he is thinking about that anniversary also!).

Hang tough...stay the course. Stay in Plan B. Stay dark. No calls, presents, slowers, emails...nothing! This is what has gotten him to this point. Dont blow it now.

In His arms.

Mimi

Print out this post from MM and frame it - I think I will!

An excellent justification for doing plan B properly. The only thing I would add (for emphasis) is that (unnecessary - i.e. not related to kids etc) contact between you and your WH during plan B will be like contact between a WS and the OP during withdrawal - it sets the clock back. Be strong. He knows the love for him is there - that was what you did during plan A. Forget the piano teacher. She is just telling you that there were problems in the past with the relationship - you know this!

Don't beat yourself up on it - you can't change what has gone before. You have shown you can change for the future - you did this with plan A. Plan B has shown him the way back. Stick to it and be strong. You are doing great.

S.

WW is acting true to course and I almost goofed. I need help. Somebody please tell me exactly what to do because I am not thinking clearly!

WS says he wants to reconcile. Wants me to back off of getting the house that I chose. Wants to choose another bigger house to live in with me. He is focusing on the house issue but has said nothing about being sorry about what he has put me through. Just seems desperate to get away from his life with the OW.

I just said, like an idiot, out of shock and disbelief, "We need to talk and go more slowly".

What do I say to recover in the next conversation? I don't know why I whimped out this morning. I don't feel strong. I know I am making a mistake. I am still afraid of making him mad. It is an issue for me. He is definitely being controlling not repentant.

He is not saying the right things, Mimi. He needs to first seperate from the OW and present evidence of this via a no contact letter. THEN you can begin to listen to his plan of recovery.

What is his plan to recover the damage to your marriage? You don't EVEN want to have to live through another false recovery when he strings you along for few weeks and then goes back to the OW. Slooooooooooooooooow and easy here.

His words are just that, words that have not been backed up with any action. HE IS STILL WITH THE OW, remember. WS' have lots and lots of meaningless WORDS. And not even the RIGHT words at that. I don't think he's ready to do anything yet, but is merely experiencing some mild panic at your independence.

LET HIM PANIC! Let him panic enough to do the RIGHT THINGS, such as end the affair. [as a beginning]

You can't put off your new house for this wimpy little show. Just remember, you have been through all this before, with the empty promises, etc, etc.

Stay the course, Mimi, and make him PROVE to you that this is all over. In the meantime, don't vacate your plans to buy the new house. If he does come back, he can live in that house with you.

You weren't weak, you were shocked! You did fine! You're rocking his world with all this reality. If/when you get together to talk, just stand firm on your list of "demands" for getting back together. He's only just peeking out of the fog, but that's SOMETHING!

Some WS's take longer to come to the point of true regret. He's probly hoping just to come back home and move on as if nothing happend. You KNOW it doesn't work that way, but his foggy brain doesn't. It's pain avoidance...the entire affair is pain avoidance. It hurts to realize how stupid he's acted and it hurts deeply to know that you've caused someone you love very much such horrible pain. He wants to avoid dealing with those consequences. He wants to believe it can be "all better".

Hang in there Mimi!! I also don't know exactly what you should do, but hopefully the experts will be here soon to give you some good hints! GOOD LUCK!!

I need to go ahead with the house for sure.

I forgot to mention that his concern is that my new house is on the same side of town where she lives and he is wanting to hide from her, I guess.

Do I actually meet with him today?

I haven't seen him in about 6 weeks.

I have to hear more specifically whether he is meeting my conditions. He was rushing on the phone, going into jury duty of all things.

THANKS, YOU GUYS!!!!

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,
I would suggest leaving him a VOICE MESSAGE while he is in jury duty telling him that you do plan on going forth with the house and that when he discontinues ALL CONTACT with the OW, as per your letter, to give you a call and THEN - ONLY THEN - will you discuss possible reconciliation.

Until that happens, you are moving on with your life!

He is trying to yank you off track, Mimi. Please don't let him do it.

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Right now, you have all the control. He is trying desperately to take that back. Please don't give it back to him, Mimi. He has ABUSED that control in the past and will do it again if you let him.

Better yet-

Tell him you want an NC letter mailed together by you and he TODAY, and you will consider stalling the house stuff. Make it clear that unless he committs to it TODAY, then you have to keep moving forward.

Of course I will insist on the NC letter and other conditions before reconsidering buying the house and thinking of reconciliation.

I'm thinking that he's planning on the NC letter. I've made it clear that there is no other way.

My question is: "Do I meet with him face to face?"

I think I need to have more discussions with him.

I can't reach him by VOICEMAIL. He'll probably be calling me.

He says he wants us to buy a more expensive house together in a gated community. (Afraid of her?) That's a big step from being with OW in the condo each weekend. It's incredible that he is seeing that as an option. Almost bizarre!!

He needs to be completely honest with me about this, for sure.

Mimi

I'd respectfully (very respectfully actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) disagree with Kily here. I would go ahead with the house come what may. Communicate to your husband via voice mail, e-mail or letter (don't talk direct to him), that he knows what he has to do to begin a discussion on reconciliation. That is in your plan B letter, but re-iterate it now. The are the preconditions to discussion about reconciliation.

Remember the bigger picture Mimi. You showed him what he was losing with your plan A. With plan B you took it away from him and got on with your life. You are on a new train now. He has a ticket with a built-in expiry date there. The longer he leaves the faster that train is going and eventually he won't be able to catch it. A result of that process is a better Mimi living a new life. He has his invitation to join. There is a price to be paid and that has been made clear in your plan B letter.

He will do anything to haggle about the price - e.g. give me time, don't sell the house etc. He will even try to justify this (e.g. don't want to live near OW). It is all fog-talk. I have several hundred people live in a half-mile radius of me. How many of them do I know? I have people who live 200 feet for me and I might go 6 weeks without even seeing them. So what if she lives on the same side of town. She can be avoided if he really wants to. He is holding on to that fence for dear life. Your plan B train is running alongside and shaking the fenceposts. He knows is going to fall off. He wants you to stop the engine so that his fall is delayed. Don't

Be strong

S.

Mimi,
I would ask for MORE THAN WORDS. And I wouldn't meet with him until he has ended contact with the OW in order to dicuss the possibility of reconciliation. Move too fast here and you are DOOMED TO FAILURE and more heartache.

He has said words before. I would expect a demonstration, ie: complete end to his affair for some time in addition to the NC letter. The NC letter doesn't mean anything if it's not backed up by actions. He has told you he was ending contact before.

And I wouldn't put off the purchase of the house. Why should you? You want the house, don't you? He can't just come waltzing back making demands after what he has done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Salerio:
<strong>

He will do anything to haggle about the price - e.g. give me time, don't sell the house etc. He will even try to justify this (e.g. don't want to live near OW). It is all fog-talk. I have several hundred people live in a half-mile radius of me. How many of them do I know? I have people who live 200 feet for me and I might go 6 weeks without even seeing them. So what if she lives on the same side of town. She can be avoided if he really wants to. He is holding on to that fence for dear life. Your plan B train is running alongside and shaking the fenceposts. He knows is going to fall off. He wants you to stop the engine so that his fall is delayed. Don't

Be strong

S.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Salerio is absolutely right. Don't let him pull you off track, Mimi, with MORE empty talk. It will only lead to more heartache. He is getting scared and only wants you back in place. Wanting to get control of your housing situation is NOT a condition you set down in your Plan B letter. Complete seperation from the OW is.

PLAN B is working, Mimi!! Don't throw in the towel now!

Mimi,

Tell him, thanks for his thoughts and you now need time to think about it.

L.

He's not "there" yet Mimi.

Hold steady your course.

Your tender heart makes you want to help him get back home ... he's a proud man, he has to know he did the tough things himself to earn his way back.

Don't give him anything, it will diminish his self respect when this is all over. He earns his self respect back by being the man he is supposed to be ... not by the grace of your tender heart.

Save your tenderness for later. Right now, you are a goddess just out of his reach.

Let HIM reach for you, don't reach back.

Love, Pep

I like the idea of him providing PROOF, a plan that is believable to me.

I'm moving forward. The bank called about me proceeding with the loan. I meet with the movers for an estimate this afternoon.

He probably hears in my voice that I'm not ecstatic about this house. It is on a lower level than I am used to. At this time in my life, I had expected to be moving up rather than moving downward. I'm moving from my dream house that we designed into a house with no wallpaper and no shower door in one bathroom. I hate to sound snooty!! But maybe I'll be happier there. I tried to make myself feel happier there yesterday but it is below my standards. WS knows this about me and was asking me questions about it, regarding the fixtures, etc., trying to offer me more. That has been his style in the marriage, showing me love by buying me stuff. Interesting, he had indicated being intrigued by the OW's lack of class and lower standards. I'm confused. He has thrown me off track. He knows me. He's been my life partner. I'm supposed to buy a house with him, not independently.

I'm not sure what to do. I'm listening to you guys but still am confused about what to do.

I'm getting in my car to pray. I'm going to put it in God's hands.

If he meets my conditions and he provides PROOF (that I really can believe in my heart and soul), then I might allow him to come live in the house with me. If he wants me, he will comply with my wishes on this. Salerio is right if he is for real it doesn't matter if we live down the street from her. He won't be able to completely avoid her in this town. We do not live in a large enough city for that.

The ball is in his court. He will have to pursue me again today. He just MIGHT have the NC letter in mind. Also, you are right, Melody, it will have to be more than that. I'm not sure exactly what I need. A willingness to live in the house I chose??? Kissing me feet?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know true repentance is needed. I'm not hearing that from him. He just sounds really desperate to be relieved from her for some reason. Of course, we only had a 5 minute conversation.

Mimi-

I agree with Salerio 100% actually! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The point that I was making was that unless he was 100% committed then do not change your path for anything.

I mentioned a few posts back that he was more attached to the house (you) then he let on. Well guess what. This attachment is what's driving his current behavior.

The scales have now tipped and he has the first feeling of PANIC due to his choices. His current reactions are what you see today. He is now in pain and is trying desperately to get rid of that pain. Don't enable him by giving in. He needs to feel pain in order for that FOG to clear.

I agree with Melody Lane too. I think that you should not have face to face contact until he meets those few requirements. He needs to show you that he wants this and isn't simply yankin your chain.

Tell him #1 - you want the voicemail service reactivated for YOUR convinience.

#2 NC letter signed and mailed. Nothing less...

#3 Whatever else your little heart desires. Don't make it easy.

I think this is a tricky situation and I really hope you will talk with Steve about how to proceed. I think there are alot of nuances to navigating the road to recovery.

I do think there are some negatives to beginning recovery (if it does happen) in a house that WS did not help choose, and in a house that is not as appealing, and in a house where he is vulnerable to the sight of OW. I would not dismiss your WH's concerns offhandedly.

I found that while my WH was in the fog, I did have to talk to him and try to explain things to him. Sometimes my words would penetrate. So I think there might be some value into TALKING with your WS, and trying to get him to go through his logic. And just discuss it calmly and very reasonably. Ask him about his plans. Point out calmly any flaws in his logical thinking. I did this with my WS and he started to realize that his fantasy would not work.

For example, he was going to move a few hours away to spend the summer "exploring the OW". I said, "fine, let's figure out a visitation schedule and you can drive down to pick the kids up and bring them back to your house." When he realized that he'd be spending 3 or 4 hours just getting them suddenly the idea of his country hideaway became much less appealing.

While I do believe in Plan B, I think the WS has to be guided back home. They have to know the door is open. That requires some communication with them. Even in Mortarman's description, he did have some communication with his WW during Plan B, during which he reiterated his conditions for her to come home.

I would not rush forward too fast on this new house. get Steve's advice!!!

Talked to WS and will try to give you guys the gist of the conversation.

I asked him what his plan is for ending the contact with OW. Told him I expected NC letter today.

This initially made him angry, stated that I was giving him the feeling that I only wanted him back on my terms, that I was being "adverserial".

I maintained my position. Stated that I was not being argumentative, that I was protecting myself from further hurt, that I was no longer going to be disrespected by him.

He wanted to tell me HIS PLAN. I listened. He claims that he has learned of her vindictiveness. Claims to be afraid of her, that she might kill him or have him killed.( Her last BF was in jail. She is from that side of the tracks which made me wonder about him being with her in the first place.) He wants to buy us new cars fo anonymity. He states he needs to move out of his condo because if he stays there after NC she will harass him and make his life hell.

I state my plan to proceed with the new house. If we do reconcile, maybe he can live with me there. However, not right now. He states a plan to live somewhere else first.

Told him that I do not plan to put myself in the position of him leaving me again. I know life holds know guarantees but we have to work on our marital issues through therapy, using MB principles, etc. He claims that there would be no turning back for him. He has been reading SAA. Didn't want to live on her side of town because of temptation of getting back into the addiction.

He described the problems in their relationship. Her 12 year old daughter, her wanting to go out with him in town, him realizing her vindictiveness, meanness, etc. They have no history together, he really loves me.

He will have to prove this right? There is value in PLAN A. He is remembering it. He does know that I love him. MM is right. He is seeing her as a toad.

He is agreeable and understandable that I will have NC with him until he is willing to meet my conditions.

Your thoughts?

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>