</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong> Does that mean that I can commit murder today, ask for forgiveness tonight, and then because I have been forgiven, that I can continue that activity and it is no longer murder? We all know the answer to that one...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think we all know the answer to that one, honestly.

You ask if we can "continue" that activity and be forgiven, and my answer would be "Of course not!" However, if you are asking if someone were to commit murder, ask for forgiveness from God, and get forgiven, my answer would be "Yes!"

Of course there would be consequences for the action of the murder: Someone is dead, their family suffers, the murderer is in prison, their family suffers, the record follows the murderer wherever he/she goes - in short, life is changed, forever.

I do enjoy debates, and especially religious ones. I like to learn how different people believe and find opinions very interesting. The one thing I realize, more and more as I read and learn, is that we are simply humans trying to understand an AWESOME God, and fall short at times... simply because we are human.

Whether God will forgive *your* wife for what you consider continued adultery, hcii, is between God and your wife. But it is still a mind-boggling question. I'm glad I'm not God.

Well said, HCII, you have stated many of the things I have also thought about. I don't know what the answer is, but your points make excellent sense. Thanks.

Jen,

My H posted here under the name "zachsdad" hoping to find some clarity on how to get over his guilt, this is a last ditch effort and I am afraid that there will not be any advice on his thread (mine get lost easily too), I am trying to step back and not take "control" but I am praying that all those great advice givers are out there lurking and able to offer some clarity. How can he get the attention this thread needs. It's call "can't get peace of mind" under "Just Found out".....I know I acting crazy but this is it for him I think.....You are one of the great veterans whose threads I always read so I thought you might have some advice (besides back off...heehee)...
Hope you can help-you can e-mail me at dlmelanson@eastlink.ca....

Take care

Like Zorweb, I too am Catholic.

In no way though, can I ever say to others (non-Catholics) that divorce is a sin...
...even our own Catholic Cathecism... says there are situations where divorce is necessary!

As to remarriage...
...I would advise against it...
...but unless you are Catholic and have the option of an 'annulment'...
...(a mechanism that offers a special guidance/authority through the local teaching magisterium)...
...remarriage as defined by owns faith... is not something I [as a individual] can rule out. Without the option of receiving an 'annulment'...
...how can I [or anyone] say the marriage was not in fact 'null' (and void)... at the time of the marriage.

The previous links I have mentioned:
What the early Church said about conditions for divorce and...
FA: I found my bible...
...may give thoughts and guidelines on remarriage... and mostly in line with traditional evangelical/orthodox Christian thinking.

Maybe worth reviewing...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

2Long said:
[QUOTE

posted July 03, 2003 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen:

All this stuff about Bibles and religions and articles...

...what do YOU believe is right for YOU? What "moral code" defines YOU and how you behave? And before you answer that, I KNOW that it isn't the same as it was when you had your ONSs.

I'm not much for labeling people as sinners. I prefer underscoring their positive attributes and watching those grow. [/QUOTE]

2Long, a discussion of Christian principles between Christians is often going to be "unintelligible" to nonChristians.

But, your "advice" to Jen is somewhat scary. You are back to "doing what you feel like doing" regardless of the consequences or the "rightness or wrongness".

Jen, please do not fall into that trap again.

God bless.

Just some quick notes to keep this going.

First off, the only time God stat he HATES something is when he refers to divorce in Malachi.

Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow. It states that if her husband is DEAD, she is free to remarry, only in the Lord (meaning only another believer). So I think all Christians agree that God has stated here that remarriage is okay for someone who's spouse has died.

But, what is the definition of death? Of course, someone that physically dies would be considered dead. But what about spiritual death? the word used in this passage of Scripture is the same word for death in Genesis. God had stated that anyone that ate of the fruit of the tree, would surely die. The same word. But did Adam and Eve die when they ate the fruit? No...and yes. They didnt physically die. But they did spiritually die. They were cut off from their relationship with God.

In 1st Corinthians, it talks about what to do with a Christian who continues to live in sin. It talks about being brought before the church. and if the brother or sister refuses to stop what they are doing, they are declared "dead" by the church and are to be treated as a sinner or tax gatherer (which means spiritually dead). They are still saved, but have been declared spiritually dead because of their transgressions.

So what happens then? Well, Hebrews 10 speaks to what God does with believers who are spiritually dead. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. And Hebrews 10 is NOT talking about heathens...it is talking about believers.

So, a WS who is brought before the church, who still refuses to stop sinning, even after they know the truth of what they are doing, even after being declared spiritually dead, has atough road ahead of them. hebrews 10 speaks to this when it says that Jesus' blood will not cover these sins. That this Christian will pay the consequences of his/her sin alone, and that God has limited Himself by saying He will not provide grace until the consequences have been served.

Want an example in marriage. Go read 2nd Samuel, with David. He committed adultery and murder. He (the OM) and Bathsheba (the WW) had a child. That child was struck with a sickness by God, and even though everyone prayed, the child died This was payment of the consequences for David KNOWINGLY sinning (rebelling) against God's Word. Now, after the baby dies, God brought grace to David and Bathsheba, and they bore a child named Solomon, who God loved.

So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY! Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery! God left only one provision for divorce, and that is the death of a spouse (physical or spiritual). In the physical realm the spouse isnt dead until declared so by a coroner. In the spiritual realm, that coroner is the church.

Once a spouse is dead, then the remaining spouse is free to remarry, only in the Lord by being free to remarry, they are not committing adultery and not sinning, just as the widow is not committing adultery or sinning if she remarries after her husband dies.

The Ws is in a real pickle! If they continue to pursue their immoral life, they will be declared spiritually dead. God will then not hold back the consequences of their sin. He will not bless the divorce, remarriage, subsequent children, etc until the price is paid for that person's rebellion.

I have more to say, but want to get the discussion going some more. Suffice it to say, God does allow remarriage...and divorce. But only when a spouse loses a spouse to death, physically or spiritually.

In His arms.

So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY!
No it doesn't.

Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery!
What if they just divorce, never had affairs and never remarry or sleep around?

Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow
You mean remarriage is allowed BY a widow.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Jen here's a booklet on line from RBC's ministry
that talks about divorce and remarriage...it should clear up all your questions.God bless you.

this will help you decide what to do too.
EarthAngel Divorce & Remarriage

DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE
What Does The Bible Teach?
Introduction
Mixed Signals
What Does The Bible Teach?
The Divine Permission
The Proper Procedure
The God-Honoring Goal
Questions People Ask
Spiritually Equipped

remember when your there you can also order this
it is free they will send it to you snail mail
and they don't bother you for money...
so when your there order a few others to have to read.at home..hugs..am praying for you..hope you are well..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SadEyes:
<strong> here's a booklet on line from RBC's ministry
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Curiously, I did find inconsistencies in this stuff. I read it all the way through.........and there were instances where the "writings" say one thing, and the FAQ's contradicted it!

Listen, here's the thing. This whole issue is really sooooo personal, that, my feeling is: This is an issue that each of us must take up with our Lord, and follow HIS leading!

What is HIS plan for one family/couple may not be His plan for another.........since each circumstance is different...........

Kinda like what Foreverhers is saying........

OR

One BS may be able to "wait" for their WS to repent and want to return to the M, and another BS is not able to do this. Does that make one "right" with the Lord and another in defiance? I wouldn't want to go that far!

Mortarman,
Here's the thing about your post: How long would one wait for one's spouse to repent before declaring the person "dead" to spiritual things? That would be a concern of mine.....why would we think we could decide when one has reached a point of no return, in essence, for repentance.

I know for myself, I was an adult when I repented of my sins for the first time, and decided to follow Christ. Even then, it wasn't a straight road of total faithfulness all those years till now. What if God has decided that if I didn't do it exactly right from then till now, I wasn't His child, and condemned to hell?

How can we know when enough is enough, and our UNrepentant spouse is going to remain UNrepentant forever? HOW LONG is long enough to wait for them to repent and return to the Lord? When can we declare the M DOA and finally "move on"?

At least with a living body, you know when it's DOA by the ceasing of human functions (heart-beat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). But with the spiritual condition of men, HOW would you know when to declare that the person will NEVER be brought back to God by repentance?

Sounds like dangerous ground there........

Hey,

Just wanted to weigh in on the latest posts.

Chris </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it doesn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, okay. If a married couple seperate, never divorce, never remarry, never have sex with someone else, then yes...there is not adultery. But, there is no such thing as no fault divorce in the Bible. There is always fault. And the Bible states that divorce can happen when there is the fault of sexual immorality. That's it. To do it any other way invites sin. If my wife and I "divorce" for no-fault, and I never have sex or remarry, but my wife does...she commits the sin of adultery. In God's eyes, she is still married to me, because He has said that the only divorce that he allows is for sexual immorality. That was not the case in this example. Now, once she does that, then I am free to remarry, because my wife has committed adultery.

But wait. I am also in trouble because I helped lead my wife into adultery by signing an earthly divorce, instead of doing as God says. So her adultery actually falls on me also.

So, if both spouses divorce by earthly terms, never remarry and never have sex again, then there is no adultery. God views them as seperated, because He does not recognize the divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if they just divorce, never had affairs and never remarry or sleep around?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean remarriage is allowed BY a widow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. Sorry...bad english!

Lupolady,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman,
Here's the thing about your post: How long would one wait for one's spouse to repent before declaring the person "dead" to spiritual things? That would be a concern of mine.....why would we think we could decide when one has reached a point of no return, in essence, for repentance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not for us to decide individually. Read 1st Corinthians Chapter 7. God outlines how it is supposed to be done. A church court is established. The rebelling Christian is confronted, and if they refuse to obey, they are brought before the church. If they will then not do as God demands, they are to be put out of the church and treated like sinners and tax gatherers (spiritually dead). YOU do not do it...God's coroner, the church, does it (I am nondenominational, for those of you who wonder what "sect" I am).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know for myself, I was an adult when I repented of my sins for the first time, and decided to follow Christ. Even then, it wasn't a straight road of total faithfulness all those years till now. What if God has decided that if I didn't do it exactly right from then till now, I wasn't His child, and condemned to hell?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He does not do this. He is a God of love and grace. He knows that you still have the sin nature. This life is a process. You will fail from time to time. But we arent talking about sinning here. We are talking about whayt is written in Hebrews 10, which is open rebellion. When you receive the knowledge of the truth, when you are confronted and still do what God does not want you to do, then God has limited himself as outlined in Hebrews 10. He says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Now, does that mean you are going to Hell? Of course not, just as me getting a spanking and sent to my room didnt mean that I was thrown out of my family when I was 10. Hell is a choice. By accepting Jesus in your life, Hell is no longer an option for you. But it also means that a process of sanctification is started where you begin your walk with Jesus. And God loves you too much to let you stand still. And He certainly loves His Son so much that He will not allow any believer to "trample" His Son's bllod under their feet. He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can we know when enough is enough, and our UNrepentant spouse is going to remain UNrepentant forever? HOW LONG is long enough to wait for them to repent and return to the Lord? When can we declare the M DOA and finally "move on"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do not declare your spouse spiritually DOA, just as you wouldnt be the one to declare them physically DOA. There must be a coroner. That isnt YOU! One of the things that was happening concurrent with my Plan B was that I had started the process of 1st Corinthians 7 with my wife. I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." What kind of father would allow their child to continue that way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least with a living body, you know when it's DOA by the ceasing of human functions (heart-beat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). But with the spiritual condition of men, HOW would you know when to declare that the person will NEVER be brought back to God by repentance?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You dont know when brain waves, blood flow end. Even if you did, you still dont declare them dead. there is a process. There is a person that does do that...the coroner. In the spiritual realm, it is the same. In 1st Corinthians 7, it talks about Jesus saying that when two or more believers meet, He will be there. Be there when they pray? Well, sure. Be there in their troubles? Sure. But that wasnt the context of that passage. That chapter was talking about the establ;ishment of a church court and disciplining believers. And Jesus said He will be there with them as they do this. That is how we KNOW when to declare them spiritually dead. It is how we KNOW that when they are declared such, that it was the right judgment. This is because God PROMISED that He would be there in the process, and the decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like dangerous ground there........
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it is. It is dangerous for everyone. That is why it is spelled out in Hebrews 10 (the offense) and 1st Corinthians 7 (the court). It is in this way that God has given us the ability to do His will here.

He is very straight forward on this. He has set up the rules on how to do this.

And when it comes to marriage and divorce, He set up marriage. It was His idea. Thus, the local courthouse does not have to power to over rule what God established. And God said that there is divorce for one reason. And until that reason has been met, you are still married. And then, it goes on in the above two listed passages, to describe how that divorce is to happen. You cant just declare yourself divorced in the world. Human law will not allow that. You have to go through the process. God's law is no different. There is a process...follow it and you will be fine. Dont follow it, and you invite disaster.

When I started the process with the church, I was DONE with my wife's affair, done with the marriage. I was in Plan B, but in my heart, I was in Plan D. But I knew that if I took it before the church, it was possible that my wife might recant and come back inline. And then I would no longer have the right to divorce her. Because by her asking for forgiveness, and coming out of rebellion, she was no longer "dead," and could not be declared so by the church. And as it says in the Bible, remarriage is only allowed if your spouse is dead, physically or spiritually.

If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says. And my wife came back to me. She hadnt been declared dead yet. Thus, if I was to follow my God and not rebel myself, I had no choice but to forgive her and accept her back.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
A church court is established. The rebelling Christian is confronted, and if they refuse to obey, they are brought before the church. If they will then not do as God demands, they are to be put out of the church and treated like sinners and tax gatherers (spiritually dead). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a problem with having a church tribunal do this. I guess I'm saying just b/c someone won't repent the day they are brought before the church court, doesn't mean they NEVER will!

I wouldn't disagree with the "right" of the BS to do this, and then to "move on" - if that is what they are seeking to do. Most of the time, the WS breaks the M vows once they engage in an A, and adulterous behavior, no doubt about that.

I believe this whole ugly mess created by an A can be a test for us. It can be a test of our faithfulness to our M vows......to our S, to God. I'm not talking to you personally, here, OK? I'm just saying that this "process" - of being allowed to go before your church elders and declare your WS "dead" - so you can file for D. and "move on" doesn't seem like the way God wants us to handle this. We M for life. We take our vows before God, "For better or worse, in sickness and health, in good times and in bad......" -- You know the deal....

I am having a problem bringing this type of "sin" up before the elders of the church when dealing with your S.....after all, Christ wants us to respect, love and cherish our S's. IMHO, this hardly seems like the proper technique to show that love.

MM, you referred to open rebellion by our WS's. I understand this. I also understand that xH and I were lving our lives in open rebellion of God's plan for both of us for a very long time......

I often wonder "Is that why God allowed this mess to overtake our lives?"

So God is punishing us for that rebellion? By busting up my M, and taking my H away, and allowing him to enter into an adulterous relationship? Filing for divorce without biblical grounds? To what end? So he would be further away from God, and further sinning would be taking place? See where this kind of thinking has gotten me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....in Hebrews 10....says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that IS true! I know this, our "mess" has brought me back to the Lord. It has brought me to repentance, and to understand all the ways I failed. I failed my M by not being a christian W to my H. I failed my Lord by not being a faithful Xn, and now look at my mess! Don't feel sorry for me...........I know and believe all this stuff. I KNOW all this has happened for His higher purpose. I am trusting and believing HE knows what He is doing! PTL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here's my point. HOW can you expect grace to be given to someone you've just had your church declare dead[/b}!?!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here again, I believe God WILL reel in the WS, [b]at His appointed time! Doesn't always happen the way it happened with your W. Not all WS's "see the error of their ways" immediately, repent, and come into the fold with all manner of guilt, repentance, etc.

No, it is NOT love to leave your S in open rebellion. My WS does NOT want to hear about his rebellion. He DID actually say to me, "I don't care what God wants, I want out of this M, I want this Div!" Hauling his sorry butt before a church tribunal would have accomplished nothing at this juncture. I DO believe a time will come when he WILL repent, come back to the Lord, and join me in my new church (you see, we weren't even attending church when he left!), repentant, sanctifiied and washed of all the sin of this A. Why do I believe that? 'Cause it's what I'm praying for. I am praying to save his sorry butt from the pits of hell and the devastation of his life from the trap that satan has him in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with this. Only thing you and I can disagree on here is the idea that once the church declares your S "dead" - well then you MIGHT AS WELL move forward w/Plan D.

I'm just not ready to do that.

Funny thing is, I always thought *I* would be the one who would tell him to take a flying LEAP!!!! When presented with the opportunity to do it, the Lord directed me to lots of places that said I wasn't to go that way.

Now, it occurs to me that had the shoe been on the other foot (not that I would have "cheated" - but our problems were so severe at one point) I would be the one to leave....and my H would NOT have the inner strength to "pray me through it."

My g/f and I were talking about this very subject the other day....and she made that astute observation: She said I am the "stronger" one in our M. Stronger emotionally, spiritually, etc. and so if I had left, H would NOT have been able to handle it, and certainly wouldn't have been able to "pray me through it" as stated above. Therefore, NO ONE to stand in the gap.....which is what I feel I'm doing for our M....fighting the good fight against the fiery darts the enemy is using to destroy us (now mostly him).

Actually, to clear up a point, I'm not sure my H did "cheat" prior to our Div. I mean, he moved in immediately w/ow on the day he moved out of here.....BUT - in his defense, he HAD already filed for Div, had the paperwork in the system, so I think in his mind he was already div'd, so was "free" to date! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway, nice to discuss these points with you, MM, even tho we seem to be in total opposition on some of these issues! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

LL,

Thanks for the continued discussion. I do want you to understand that we may not be as far apart aas you might think right now. Let me explain by answering your post below.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a problem with having a church tribunal do this. I guess I'm saying just b/c someone won't repent the day they are brought before the church court, doesn't mean they NEVER will! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, this is true! I totally agree. But this divorce process is about the betrayed spouse, not the WS. God's rules about divorce have nothing to do with helping or justifying the WS. In the case of a biblical divorce, it is all about the BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't disagree with the "right" of the BS to do this, and then to "move on" - if that is what they are seeking to do. Most of the time, the WS breaks the M vows once they engage in an A, and adulterous behavior, no doubt about that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what divorce (biblical, not worldly) is all about. It is about the BS. You see, while some BSs can overcome the A and try to regain their marriage (God's will is ALWAYS for the marriage to survive and prosper...He hates divorce), there are others that cannot. It is just too much for them. So God allowed (permitted) them to divorce, and outlined to them how it is supposed to be done.

The rules God established werent for the WS. They have no rights in this process. The rules were established to protect the BS. So, God gives us BSs two choices. First is to try to save our marriage, which is His will. The second is that He PERMITS divorce. As one person reminded me when I was in Plan A, that God will not tell you to divorce your mate...because it is never His will for you to divorce. He just permits it under the circumstances and rules previously outlined.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this whole ugly mess created by an A can be a test for us. It can be a test of our faithfulness to our M vows......to our S, to God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT! It is a test. Some BSs pass it. Others just cant. Mostly because of the extreme pain that the WS has caused. So, God says that even though the BS might fail the test, He will not hold it against them if they decide to divorce (biblically).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not talking to you personally, here, OK? I'm just saying that this "process" - of being allowed to go before your church elders and declare your WS "dead" - so you can file for D. and "move on" doesn't seem like the way God wants us to handle this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His word is very plain in 1st Corinthians 7. His rules, not mine. Of course, as I said above, God's will is for marriages to stay together and prosper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We M for life. We take our vows before God, "For better or worse, in sickness and health, in good times and in bad......" -- You know the deal....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I TOTALLY agree with you on this. That is why I am still with my wife. I believe this also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am having a problem bringing this type of "sin" up before the elders of the church when dealing with your S.....after all, Christ wants us to respect, love and cherish our S's. IMHO, this hardly seems like the proper technique to show that love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is neither respect nor love to allow someone to continue to live in sin, to live in rebellion. You bring this before the church because God does not want family business brought up in the street. Some other Christian owes you money? Dont sue them in court...take it to the Church. God states in Hebrews 10 that if you do these types of things outside of His rules, then you have already lost. He wants things decided in the church. Since Jesus promised to be there when two or more are gathered, then we know that a church court properly put together and under the influence of the Holy Spirit, is much better, fairer, etc than any worldly court.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, you referred to open rebellion by our WS's. I understand this. I also understand that xH and I were lving our lives in open rebellion of God's plan for both of us for a very long time......</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All maybe true. But are you still in rebellion? Open rebellion? Sin is rebellion. But the rebellion I speak of is something different. It is being told that God only allows divorce for marital unfaithfulness, and then proceeding with your no-fault divorce anyway. Rebellion is faced with the knowledge of the truth (confronted by His word, by the Holy Spirit and/or other Christians), you still chose your own way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I often wonder "Is that why God allowed this mess to overtake our lives?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Free will. That is why He allowed it. And yes, He will allow adversity to strengthen us...not destroy us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So God is punishing us for that rebellion? By busting up my M, and taking my H away, and allowing him to enter into an adulterous relationship? Filing for divorce without biblical grounds? To what end? So he would be further away from God, and further sinning would be taking place? See where this kind of thinking has gotten me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[quote]in Hebrews 10....says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that IS true! I know this, our "mess" has brought me back to the Lord. It has brought me to repentance, and to understand all the ways I failed. I failed my M by not being a christian W to my H. I failed my Lord by not being a faithful Xn, and now look at my mess! Don't feel sorry for me...........I know and believe all this stuff. I KNOW all this has happened for His higher purpose. I am trusting and believing HE knows what He is doing! PTL.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep this up! You are walking in His will!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, here's my point. HOW can you expect grace to be given to someone you've just had your church declare dead[/b}!?!?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they were saved, they are still saved, even when declared "dead." It says in 1st Corinthians 7, that the believer should be considered a sinner and tax gatherer. Now, once declared spiritually dead, what happens? Well ,they can continue to live in sin, and reap the consequences of their rebellion. Or they can repent, and thus forgiven. Grace is given with repentance. Do you see? It is like a family. The child rebels. Dad puts him in timeout. He continues to rebel, and continues to thus receive punishment. Finally, there is sorrow and repentance and the child is allowed to join the family functions again. Now, was he ever out of the family? Of course not. But Dad was not going to allow rebellion. He loves the child too much. And thus God loves the wayward believer too much to allow them to continue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here again, I believe God WILL reel in the WS, [b]at His appointed time!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. And He has ways of doing that. Most importantly, in 1st Corinthians 7, it says you should first confront the believer in love. keep it at its lowest level. If they still rebel, then you must take it to the church.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't always happen the way it happened with your W. Not all WS's "see the error of their ways" immediately, repent, and come into the fold with all manner of guilt, repentance, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very, very true! That is not the issue. The issue is protecting other believers from the rebels behavior. It is also to allow God to use His rules in order to get the attention of the wayward believer. It may happen overnight. It may happen two years later. Their hearts might harden and it might not ever happen. But there should be no mistake here...God intends for the believer to be brought back into the fold, and He will use ANYTHING in order to do that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it is NOT love to leave your S in open rebellion. My WS does NOT want to hear about his rebellion. He DID actually say to me, "I don't care what God wants, I want out of this M, I want this Div!" Hauling his sorry butt before a church tribunal would have accomplished nothing at this juncture.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you might be right. But you might be wrong to. It goes on in Scripture to talk about the fact that when this process is done and the believer is declared spiritually dead, that he/she is thrown into the realm of Satan. Not a very nice place to be, for sure. Why? So that the pain will increase, that the believer be brought back into the fold. It is punishment. It is punishment in love, just as punishing your child is in love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO believe a time will come when he WILL repent, come back to the Lord, and join me in my new church (you see, we weren't even attending church when he left!), repentant, sanctifiied and washed of all the sin of this A. Why do I believe that? 'Cause it's what I'm praying for. I am praying to save his sorry butt from the pits of hell and the devastation of his life from the trap that satan has him in.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you are doing great! And this is the way it should be done. And God will reward YOU for your patience and faith. But understand, there is another way for those that cannot continue. Or for those that believe that this may be the only way to have their spouse wake up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with this. Only thing you and I can disagree on here is the idea that once the church declares your S "dead" - well then you MIGHT AS WELL move forward w/Plan D.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I do not believe this. Just because they are declared spiritually dead does not mean that is time for divorce. Having to go through this process is an act of love, of faith. Faith that once your spouse is released to the consequences of their actions, that God will use the trials that come from that to bring your spouse to repentance. It does not mean divorce. If you want a divorce, then you have to go this way. But if you still want to save your marriage, you will find that God's process will allow the wayward believer to reap their 'rewards' and to move toward repentance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm just not ready to do that. Funny thing is, I always thought *I* would be the one who would tell him to take a flying LEAP!!!! When presented with the opportunity to do it, the Lord directed me to lots of places that said I wasn't to go that way.

Now, it occurs to me that had the shoe been on the other foot (not that I would have "cheated" - but our problems were so severe at one point) I would be the one to leave....and my H would NOT have the inner strength to "pray me through it."

My g/f and I were talking about this very subject the other day....and she made that astute observation: She said I am the "stronger" one in our M. Stronger emotionally, spiritually, etc. and so if I had left, H would NOT have been able to handle it, and certainly wouldn't have been able to "pray me through it" as stated above. Therefore, NO ONE to stand in the gap.....which is what I feel I'm doing for our M....fighting the good fight against the fiery darts the enemy is using to destroy us (now mostly him).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, God's will is for the marriage to prosper. Keep following His direction...you cant do wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, to clear up a point, I'm not sure my H did "cheat" prior to our Div. I mean, he moved in immediately w/ow on the day he moved out of here.....BUT - in his defense, he HAD already filed for Div, had the paperwork in the system, so I think in his mind he was already div'd, so was "free" to date! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And until God says he isnt married, then he is still married. And thus, he is cheating, he is committing adultery...he is in rebellion if he is a believer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, nice to discuss these points with you, MM, even tho we seem to be in total opposition on some of these issues!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said, I think we are closer than you think. You are a strong woman, and definitely show that you have great faith in the Lord. Keep following Him. But remember, He created marriage. And He has established rules for human interaction. If you follow them, you cannot go wrong.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

ooppps...somehow my original post above didnt all come thru. I just edited it, so now it is uptodate.

Okay, simple question.

I divorced my ex because in addition to her affair, I have only seen her 3 times in the last 4.5 years and haven't talked with her more than 30 minutes total in the last 2.5 years.

I never committed adultery.
According to the bible, can I get remarried?

CHRIS,
I think so.
One site I found helpful was www.newlife.com. In their archive of questions and answers, someone asked about remarriage. They responded with:
"Most biblical scholars I have taught with believe permission to remarry is implied in Matthew 5 and Mathew 19 and I Cor. 7. For example, in Matthew 19:9, Jesus clearly says, "whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery. It seems clear that it is okay to remarry once the spouse (or ex-spouse) has sex with someone else.
I agree with this and believe that God would bless you, and me, with a GODLY spouse if we pray to Him and it is His will. . I believe if it was not his will, that he would give me the spiritual gift of celibacy. I do NOT believe that God wants us to wait for our spouses forever - especially in blatant abandonment or adultery such as our own situations. Forgive, yes. Stay stuck, no.

If you read my post about restore ministries, you will see that I am disagreed with some on this situation, but this is how I interpret the Bible and I am at peace with it and with my relationship with Christ.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Chris,

Of course! Now, did you divorce her in the local court system, or the church before the court? Big question here.

Let's say you did it thru the church, as 1st Corinthins 7 spells out. And then went to the local courts to do it legally. Then you are okay to be remarried, because your wife was declared spiritually dead, and you are thus free to be remarried, only in the Lord (which means only to another believer).

But, let's say you didnt have her declared spiritually dead. You had grounds for divorce, but didnt go thru the process as outlined by God. Well, then by God's standard, you were still married, even after the court issued a decree of divorcement. Why? Because God has told us why we can get a divorce, and how to do it. You would have had the "why" but not the "how." Your wife was not declared spiritually dead by the church, thus you did not have grounds for divorce, nor the ability to remarry.

Now, if that has happened, you have done a legal divorce, she has remarried and maybe you have also. What do you do now? Well, you do as the woman was instructed at the well...you go and sin no more. Once you have the knowledge of the truth (and I didnt know any of this stuff either until I was stuck in this and was counseled and did research), then you are responsible to act upon the truth. If then you do not act upon the truth, then you will be in rebellion. And thus, Hebrews 10 spells out what will happen to those believers in rebellion.

A lot of Christians have never been educated to this, have never even studied the Bible. So they dont understand. Thus, they divorce, even when they have grounds, and dont know that what they are doing is unacceptable to God. And consequences come from that, even though it is from ignorance. But, once you have the truth, you must act upon it.

The truth is God hates divorce. But he permits it for marital unfaithfulness. Actually, He allows it for spiritual death, which includes marital unfaithfulness, desertion, among several. That is another discussion.

Since He only permits a fault divorce, then the point here is who is it that must rule if there is fault. The BS? Of course not. The local judge? Nope. He/she isnt bound by God's law. No, it must be determined if you have grounds based upon a church court, where they review the evidence and make a ruling. In that process, Jesus has promised that He will be there. And that means the verdict rendered will be His verdict.

So, the short of it is that if you did it the way God has laid it out, then yes, you are permitted to remarry. If you didnt, then you too in God's eyes, committed adultery when you moved onto a new spouse (if you remarried). But, although that may make you and some others uncomfortable, God does allow for ignorance. So, He doesnt let Hebrews 10 descend upon those that didnt know. It says in Hebrews 10 that if you KNOWINGLY rebel, then there is no sacrifice for that sin. No grace will cover the consequences.

When I heard this and read it I was floored. I had started pushing forward a civil divorce. And now this. I was looking forward to finding someone new. And then I find out that I am doing it all wrong, and will pay for it later if I continue. And also, I realized that if I did it the right way, that my wife MIGHT repent and come back before the process is done.

I believe that the reason my wife was brought out of the fog in January is because instead of pushing a worldly divorce and going for someone new, I started the process to have her declared spiritually dead. And because of my obedience, God rewarded me by having the fog lift on my wife and her come home.

I hope that helps.

In His arms.

I just did it though the civil courts.
We were married Catholic. It was not really a big deal to me, as long it was Christian. I was baptized Catholic but never did my first communion, so I wasn't a "real" Catholic (or any kind of Catholic in any sense of the word either). The church even kept my original Baptismal certificate (since I wasn't "real"?). I was pissed because it was signed by my Grandmaother , who was my Godmother.

Let's say you did it thru the church, as 1st Corinthins 7 spells out.)
This religious "divorce" is not the same as an annulment, correct? And is it even something the Catholic church believes in?

Chris,

No it isnt an annulment. I am not Catholic, so I am not sure exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

I do know that the Bible does not speak of annulments. You are either married or you get divorced. And only for the reasons outlined in the Bible. And only the way in which God outlined it. So I am not sure what an annulment really accomplishes because once the "I do's" are said, you are married...and then only God can seperate that union, based on the criteria He outlined in Scripture.

In His arms.

From my (little) understanding, a Catholic annulment means that a "valid" marriage never occurred.
A divorce is "okay" (meaning you don't have to stay married) as long as you do not remarry.

In order to get married (again), you must have the first marriage "annuled" because according the the Catholic church, there can be only one marriage and it is for life.

I don't believe that you HAVE to bring it before the church to declare the spouse spiritually dead in order to be divorced in God's eyes. Yes, that is in 1 Corinthians 7 and IS a way. But Matthew 5:32 clearly states that you can divorce your spouse for sexual unfaithfulness. Matthew 19:9 clearly states you can remarry if your spouse committed adultery. And in Proverbs, it says that the way of the adulteress leads down the pathway of death. These are all passages that show that my husband is spiritually dead at this moment. We were not members of a church at the time of the divorce. I am a member now at an interdenominational church. So how could I have brought my x before a church? I was a Christian, but not a member anywhere. I DID get my husband to go with me to that church a few times, and I did talk to the pastor and his wife about him. But the pastor's wife said that since I had confronted him with the adultery, and then his friend Sean confronted him with it, and then we went to counseling, and then we talked to a Christian couple who went through the same things, and then I asked him to come to church with me and he only would occassionally- the pastor's wife said i had done all I could and so had the others, that he was confronted by Christian witnesses and that since he was not a member of the church that I had done all that could be done, and I was free to move on. I was a little hesitant about this because I felt like the church should have done something, but again, he wasn't a member. And I went through the process as much as possible. I believe I am free to remarry. The Bible clearly says adultery is grounds for divorce, and clearly says UNLESS a spouse committed sexual unfaithfulness that remarriage was adultery- but he did. And the Bible again, clearly says that adultery leads down the pathway to death.