Remarriage after divorce is not adultery or sin

Marriage Builders

"Remarriage after divorce is not adultery or sin."

I've had several well-meaning people on MB quote scriptures to me telling me just the opposite of the above statement.

I have had this on my mind almost continuously for some time now. I have felt an overwhelming new pressure to make my marriage work, even if my H isn't going to treat me very well, out of a fear of sinning if I divorce him, and in particular if I were ever to remarry.

So I've been reading and rereading the related scriptures, and today I decided to do some searching on the internet too, and I came across a very carefully researched argument that remarriage after divorce is not adultery or sin.
Divorce: The Bible says Divorce and Remarriage is not adultery

(I am not saying I plan to or even want to divorce my H at this time. What I am saying is that I should be able to do so if we cannot work things out.)

And hey, if you think that the entire article is just plain old bunk, so be it, but I think if nothing else, it's an interesting read for anyone who steadfastly clings to the belief that divorce and remarriage are sins.

Jen

[ July 03, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]

Hmmm?

I need more time to digest this article but a few things are sticking in my craw about it.

Jen,

I disagree with the premise of the article (and I think the author has done a lousy job actually---I've seen more convincing biblical pro-divorce articles). Treating God as a divorcee is pretty tenuous. Marriage is not just a contract---it's a vow. In my case, a sacrament. I look at the author's view of Matthew 5 (Sermon on the Mount)---it's beautiful in it's simplicy of the law, and how to treat people. And the author agrees, right up to the "divorce" segement, where he acts like a lawyer (Pharisee) and tries to wiggle out his interpretation by misusing the translation of the original words.

This isn't to beat up on you (or anyone) for considering divorce. I was fortunately never far enough gone in the marriage to consider divorce. Divorce is not an unforgivable sin (there are no "unforgivable sins"). I cannot say what I would truly do in your situation. I will tell you that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that I would have predicted the way that I ended up dealing with my wife's affair and pregnancy. What I will tell you is that with God's help, anything is possible.

So it's my hope that God will comfort you, and help you along this difficult journey. Let Him guide you. {{{{{{Jen}}}}}}

Read this, it may help.

http://www.bible.com/answers/adivorce.html

I can't read the article right now- but I do believe that remarriage after divorce IS adultery unless you remarry after your spouse's unfaithfulness. My question is, is a spouse only unfaithful sexually? Can a spouse be unfaithful in that he/she is abusive, or abandones his/her family or puts something else (like OW that maybe he isn't even sleeping with- emotional affair?) before his wife?
And as always, we act like divorce is the sin of all mother sins. It has grave consequences, it is hell to go through, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but it is still sin that God forgives ....

And solon is using bible.com- that is what I use too.

[ July 03, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

The interpretation depends greatly on what type of Christian a person is. For Catholics (any sect of Catholics) marriage after divorce is adultery and a sin. BUT, if the person gets an annulment (if their spouse was Catholic) or a dispensation (if their spouse was non-Catholic) then the Church does not recognize the previous marriage anymore. So re-marriage is not a sin. There is absolutely no wiggle room on this in the Catholic faith.

For Catholics, annulments/dispensation can be obtained if it can be shown that their spouse did not fill the responsibilities of a Catholic husband or wife. (‘Responsibilities” may not be the word but am too lazy right now to do the research on how it is really worded.) This includes adultery, addictions to drugs/alcohol, physical abuse, never consummating the marriage, total lack of SF in the marriage for a prolonged period of time, and other things.

My husband and I are Catholics. He is Byzantine Catholic. I am Roman Catholic. Neither of us got annulments or dispensations from our previous spouses. So according to our faith we are adulterers and sinners. My first husband is deceased so according to the Church I’m a widow. I’d be glad to get a dispensation from my second husband but it seems futile since my H will not get an annulment from his former wife. His priest approached him before we got married to tell him that based on his wife’s adultery, drug use, and so forth Father J. would be more than glad to give him an annulment. Father J. knew his ex-wife from birth so he knows what went on. But my H will not get an annulment despite all of that because she is the mother of his children and fears it will hurt his children more then it will help us.

Whether or not a person is sinning or committing adultery based on the beliefs of other Christian sects… there are about as many opinions on this as there are sects. In his book, “Love Must Be Tough”, Dr. Dodson does a very good jog of describing when a person may divorce an adulterer (or otherwise abusive spouse) and it falls within the confines of most definitions of Christianity. The only issue is that Catholics need that extra ok from the Church. Dr. Dodson’s definition is the same one by Priest used when he advised me that I really should divorce my husband.. he told me that we did not have a marriage. Only a legal contract. That my ex did not live as a Christian therefore I was not obligated to stay in that marriage.

Jen, I also don't agree with the author's interpretation and think he does an awful lot of unneccessary twisting. He is overanalyzing. And while different religions might have different customs, the buck stops at the Bible, that is the deciding factor in God's Word. God's Word also never says anywhere that divorce is the unforgivable sin.

Hi Jen,

Oh, I wrote a thread very much like this once... maybe twice. I too had verses and one heck of an article (posted to me by an old MB'er friend of mine - TNT)... Heck, I even sent a copy to my ex to study. So you won't get any argument from me.

However, I do want to tell you about something that I have learned about being a Christian... well, actually, let me begin with a story about my ex-H's grandparents:

They have been married for over 50 years, may be 60 now, I'm not sure. A long time. They have one daughter, my ex's mother. They are long-long time members of the Church of Christ. In their church there are deacons and elders. This God-fearing, lovely man could never be a deacon or an elder. Wanna know why? It's because the Bible says that a deacon must be the father of children. Not one child, but more than one. So, they would never let him be a leader in the church, because of their black-and-white literal interpretation of the Bible.

Ya know, I don't think that's what that verse meant, do you? I really do think we can pick apart the Bible to suit our needs, and many, many people do just that!

Personally, I would have let the man be a deacon... I can't imagine taking the Bible *that* literally.

Anyway, what I have learned is that only one person will stand before God when all is said and done in YOUR life, and it won't be your spouse, your neighbors, or our fellow-MB'ers. It will be YOU. And what has happened in your life is between YOU and GOD.

Thanks for sharing the article. I'm going to add it to my file... for when I'm questioning things myself.

Jen:

All this stuff about Bibles and religions and articles...

...what do YOU believe is right for YOU? What "moral code" defines YOU and how you behave? And before you answer that, I KNOW that it isn't the same as it was when you had your ONSs.

I'm not much for labeling people as sinners. I prefer underscoring their positive attributes and watching those grow.

Take care,
-ol' 2long

Jen, I also don't agree with the author's interpretation and think he does an awful lot of unneccessary twisting. He is overanalyzing.
It looks like it COULD have been written by a certain person “banned” from these very forums... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen;

Seems to me this question puts the cart before the horse, here......

The SIN was the actual affair! Divorcing/remarriage, or just plain working to make a M work isn't necessarily any worse than what has already taken place! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Not trying to beat up on ya, Jen, but reallY!!!! I think you're focus needs to change.

Quit worrying so much about it, pray intensely about it, ask God, wait for an answer from Him, and then proceed. The most important thing to God is that we turn from our sin(which you have done), and live FOR HIM.

He wants to direct your steps. He wants to see you happy, fulfilled, living IN HIS WILL, and He wants to help you do it.

Believe it. Pray for it.

God Bless you both.

oops!

[ July 03, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by new_beginning:
Wanna know why? It's because the Bible says that a deacon must be the father of children. Not one child, but more than one. So, they would never let him be a leader in the church, because of their black-and-white literal interpretation of the Bible.

.<hr /></blockquote>Thats a very sad example of a gross misinterpretation of a literal passage. It's not literalism that is the problem, but legalism.

While I don't think the Bible is the easiest book in the world to understand, I get the sense that God sort of expected us to figure it out and really thought we were smart enough to do it.

Does that mean that every person will have it 100% right? No, but they should try to understand it if they have chosen God. I think it would be a horrible mistake to use the misinterpretations of others as an excuse to not try and learn its meaning. And by correctly, I mean taking the literal parts literally and the symbolic parts symbolically. The meaning of a passage is always determined by the author, not the reader, so it is up to each reader to honestly try to determine the author's meaning.

So, when I stand before God and explain my life, I can say that tried to follow his command to do "your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

I might have got a few things wrong, but it wasn't from a lack of trying.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
oops!<hr /></blockquote>I saw that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> pssstttt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

saw what??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
saw what??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Nothing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ... actually it is not that bad, you should leave it alone. However I understand there might be misunderstanding and moving the focus from the original thread. Like this replies ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

-rh-

redhat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:

While I don't think the Bible is the easiest book in the world to understand, I get the sense that God sort of expected us to figure it out and really thought we were smart enough to do it.
<hr /></blockquote>I totally agree with you!

And I do see your point about 'legalism' vs. 'literalism'... I'll be thinking on that... it rings true.

I have been putting off replying to this thread. Simply because even though I consider myself somewhat religious, with a Christianity (Baptist) background, I try to adhere to the principle that each of us have the freedom to worship as we choose, and believe as we choose. I will not force my beliefs on someone else, neither do I want other's views forced on me. But...I do think that ALL religions can benefit from constructive discussion of each other's thoughts.

Sometimes I think to myself that if all of us could discuss our beliefs in our respective religions, that we could somehow take a little from each and eventually reach a common ground within them.

With that being said...

I think that we sometimes miss an important point regarding forgiveness. Does forgiveness completely absolve someone of their wrongdoing? Yes, you say? Well...think about this...

Moses at one time after leading the children out of Egypt had a conflict with God. I am quite sure that there was forgivness given for that, YET Moses STILL had a punishment that he was to endure even though he had been forgiven for his misgivings.

He was prohibited from entering the promised land.

There are also certain stipulations and requirements for those whom assume leadership positions in their religions. Even though one can be forgiven for their bad deeds, there still can be certain "punishments", or can be disallowed from participating in certain aspects of life because of those past deeds. Deacons and elders of the church, according to the KJV Bible, have certain requirements that must be met. Now...any of the "no-no's" are forgiveable, BUT they will cause a person to have "forfeited" their right to participate and enjoy in them.

So...in a nutshell...my opinion is that just because it is possible to be totally forgiven for a past transgression, it IS entirely possible to STILL have forfeited certain aspects of life.

I think that marriage is one of the more sacred gifts from God. Too many times God has referred to his relationship with us as a "marriage". Hence, the importance in his eyes of marriage.

If forgiveness was a "cure-all", then why would God have needed to issue other remedies and teachings concerning adultery? Could one assume that marrying again after one commits adultery cannot be forgiven? If this is not the case, WHY would God need to specifically state the conditions for DV? Wouldn't have just the act of forgiveness taken care of that?

Using my XW as a example, she remarried a week after our DV was final. Now...I ask...isn't she commiting adultery? Is it possible for her to be forgiven for that, yet remain married to her current husband? If being married to her new H was adultery yesterday, and today she asks for forgiveness, why wouldn't continuing to be married to her current H be adultery tomorrow? Can someone point me to a situation in which something is a sin before forgiveness, that isn't a sin after forgiveness? Does that mean that I can commit murder today, ask for forgiveness tonight, and then because I have been forgiven, that I can continue that activity and it is no longer murder? We all know the answer to that one...

Sometimes I honestly have the opinion of that we can indeed, as did Moses, forfeit certain rights and privileges even though forgiveness has been granted. Enjoying the fruits of marriage is one of them. I believe if we show a propensity to introduce adultery into our marriage, that God is merciful and gracious enough to allow us to be forgiven of that, providing that we can repair our M, and commit adultery no more. If that doesn't happen, then it would seem that may be a right that we have forfeited such as Moses did, and also leaders of the church have. Sure, we are forgiven, YET we are restricted to not enjoying certain things in life.

That brings me to where it has been posted concerning DV'ing, marrying another, and then the ORIGINAL H or W NOT taking the offending spouse back. I think that is God's way telling us that we are not to assist the wayward, adulterous one of circumventing God's issuing of punishment. In other words, if one commits adultery, they have God's mercy in that he will allow them to enjoy the fruits of a meaningful M, providing that they are successful in maintaining and rebuilding the original M. However, should an adulterous spouse marry another, and then wish to be restored to the original M, then it is my opinion that they have forfeited the right to particpate and enjoy in that aspect of life.

Remember? God will forgive us, yet place certain restrictions on our lives due to our past actions.

Not all will agree, and some may even be apalled at my thoughts, but I wanted to offer my opinion.

HCII

[ July 05, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: hcii ]

Thanks for your well thought out post HCII. It’s right along the lines of what I’ve been thinking.

A couple of months ago there was an OP posting on MB. She and her MM were getting married. The adulterous couple PLANS to be saved after their marriage. Yep, it is their intent to continue their adultery until the day they are married, then say they accept Jesus and be saved. This OP actually thinks that premeditated adultery and a false ‘saving’ are going to absolve them of all guilt. To my dismay, some people were telling her that doing this was wonderful; the nothing is required for salvation and forgiveness except to believe.

Can a person really put a date for salvation on your calendar and purposely sin right up to that date and be forgiven? And then continue living the sin after ‘salvation’ and be absolved? It’s like getting a cart blanc for any one particular sin for the rest of your life. It’s one of the more ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hcii:
 Does that mean that I can commit murder today, ask for forgiveness tonight, and then because I have been forgiven, that I can continue that activity and it is no longer murder? We all know the answer to that one...<hr /></blockquote>No, I don't think we all know the answer to that one, honestly.

You ask if we can "continue" that activity and be forgiven, and my answer would be "Of course not!" However, if you are asking if someone were to commit murder, ask for forgiveness from God, and get forgiven, my answer would be "Yes!"

Of course there would be consequences for the action of the murder: Someone is dead, their family suffers, the murderer is in prison, their family suffers, the record follows the murderer wherever he/she goes - in short, life is changed, forever.

I do enjoy debates, and especially religious ones. I like to learn how different people believe and find opinions very interesting. The one thing I realize, more and more as I read and learn, is that we are simply humans trying to understand an AWESOME God, and fall short at times... simply because we are human.

Whether God will forgive *your* wife for what you consider continued adultery, hcii, is between God and your wife. But it is still a mind-boggling question. I'm glad I'm not God.

Well said, HCII, you have stated many of the things I have also thought about. I don't know what the answer is, but your points make excellent sense. Thanks.

Jen,

My H posted here under the name "zachsdad" hoping to find some clarity on how to get over his guilt, this is a last ditch effort and I am afraid that there will not be any advice on his thread (mine get lost easily too), I am trying to step back and not take "control" but I am praying that all those great advice givers are out there lurking and able to offer some clarity. How can he get the attention this thread needs. It's call "can't get peace of mind" under "Just Found out".....I know I acting crazy but this is it for him I think.....You are one of the great veterans whose threads I always read so I thought you might have some advice (besides back off...heehee)...
Hope you can help-you can e-mail me at dlmelanson@eastlink.ca....

Take care

Like Zorweb, I too am Catholic.

In no way though, can I ever say to others (non-Catholics) that divorce is a sin...
...even our own Catholic Cathecism... says there are situations where divorce is necessary!

As to remarriage...
...I would advise against it...
...but unless you are Catholic and have the option of an 'annulment'...
...(a mechanism that offers a special guidance/authority through the local teaching magisterium)...
...remarriage as defined by owns faith... is not something I [as a individual] can rule out. Without the option of receiving an 'annulment'...
...how can I [or anyone] say the marriage was not in fact 'null' (and void)... at the time of the marriage.

The previous links I have mentioned:
What the early Church said about conditions for divorce and...
FA: I found my bible...
...may give thoughts and guidelines on remarriage... and mostly in line with traditional evangelical/orthodox Christian thinking.

Maybe worth reviewing...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

2Long said:
[QUOTE

posted July 03, 2003 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen:

All this stuff about Bibles and religions and articles...

...what do YOU believe is right for YOU? What "moral code" defines YOU and how you behave? And before you answer that, I KNOW that it isn't the same as it was when you had your ONSs.

I'm not much for labeling people as sinners. I prefer underscoring their positive attributes and watching those grow. [/QUOTE]

2Long, a discussion of Christian principles between Christians is often going to be "unintelligible" to nonChristians.

But, your "advice" to Jen is somewhat scary. You are back to "doing what you feel like doing" regardless of the consequences or the "rightness or wrongness".

Jen, please do not fall into that trap again.

God bless.

Just some quick notes to keep this going.

First off, the only time God stat he HATES something is when he refers to divorce in Malachi.

Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow. It states that if her husband is DEAD, she is free to remarry, only in the Lord (meaning only another believer). So I think all Christians agree that God has stated here that remarriage is okay for someone who's spouse has died.

But, what is the definition of death? Of course, someone that physically dies would be considered dead. But what about spiritual death? the word used in this passage of Scripture is the same word for death in Genesis. God had stated that anyone that ate of the fruit of the tree, would surely die. The same word. But did Adam and Eve die when they ate the fruit? No...and yes. They didnt physically die. But they did spiritually die. They were cut off from their relationship with God.

In 1st Corinthians, it talks about what to do with a Christian who continues to live in sin. It talks about being brought before the church. and if the brother or sister refuses to stop what they are doing, they are declared "dead" by the church and are to be treated as a sinner or tax gatherer (which means spiritually dead). They are still saved, but have been declared spiritually dead because of their transgressions.

So what happens then? Well, Hebrews 10 speaks to what God does with believers who are spiritually dead. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. And Hebrews 10 is NOT talking about heathens...it is talking about believers.

So, a WS who is brought before the church, who still refuses to stop sinning, even after they know the truth of what they are doing, even after being declared spiritually dead, has atough road ahead of them. hebrews 10 speaks to this when it says that Jesus' blood will not cover these sins. That this Christian will pay the consequences of his/her sin alone, and that God has limited Himself by saying He will not provide grace until the consequences have been served.

Want an example in marriage. Go read 2nd Samuel, with David. He committed adultery and murder. He (the OM) and Bathsheba (the WW) had a child. That child was struck with a sickness by God, and even though everyone prayed, the child died This was payment of the consequences for David KNOWINGLY sinning (rebelling) against God's Word. Now, after the baby dies, God brought grace to David and Bathsheba, and they bore a child named Solomon, who God loved.

So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY! Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery! God left only one provision for divorce, and that is the death of a spouse (physical or spiritual). In the physical realm the spouse isnt dead until declared so by a coroner. In the spiritual realm, that coroner is the church.

Once a spouse is dead, then the remaining spouse is free to remarry, only in the Lord by being free to remarry, they are not committing adultery and not sinning, just as the widow is not committing adultery or sinning if she remarries after her husband dies.

The Ws is in a real pickle! If they continue to pursue their immoral life, they will be declared spiritually dead. God will then not hold back the consequences of their sin. He will not bless the divorce, remarriage, subsequent children, etc until the price is paid for that person's rebellion.

I have more to say, but want to get the discussion going some more. Suffice it to say, God does allow remarriage...and divorce. But only when a spouse loses a spouse to death, physically or spiritually.

In His arms.

So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY!
No it doesn't.

Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery!
What if they just divorce, never had affairs and never remarry or sleep around?

Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow
You mean remarriage is allowed BY a widow.

[ July 09, 2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Jen here's a booklet on line from RBC's ministry
that talks about divorce and remarriage...it should clear up all your questions.God bless you.

this will help you decide what to do too.
EarthAngel Divorce & Remarriage

DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE
What Does The Bible Teach?
Introduction
Mixed Signals
What Does The Bible Teach?
The Divine Permission
The Proper Procedure
The God-Honoring Goal
Questions People Ask
Spiritually Equipped

remember when your there you can also order this
it is free they will send it to you snail mail
and they don't bother you for money...
so when your there order a few others to have to read.at home..hugs..am praying for you..hope you are well..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SadEyes:
 here's a booklet on line from RBC's ministry
<hr /></blockquote>Curiously, I did find inconsistencies in this stuff. I read it all the way through.........and there were instances where the "writings" say one thing, and the FAQ's contradicted it!

Listen, here's the thing. This whole issue is really sooooo personal, that, my feeling is: This is an issue that each of us must take up with our Lord, and follow HIS leading!

What is HIS plan for one family/couple may not be His plan for another.........since each circumstance is different...........

Kinda like what Foreverhers is saying........

OR

One BS may be able to "wait" for their WS to repent and want to return to the M, and another BS is not able to do this. Does that make one "right" with the Lord and another in defiance? I wouldn't want to go that far!

Mortarman,
Here's the thing about your post: How long would one wait for one's spouse to repent before declaring the person "dead" to spiritual things? That would be a concern of mine.....why would we think we could decide when one has reached a point of no return, in essence, for repentance.

I know for myself, I was an adult when I repented of my sins for the first time, and decided to follow Christ. Even then, it wasn't a straight road of total faithfulness all those years till now. What if God has decided that if I didn't do it exactly right from then till now, I wasn't His child, and condemned to hell?

How can we know when enough is enough, and our UNrepentant spouse is going to remain UNrepentant forever? HOW LONG is long enough to wait for them to repent and return to the Lord? When can we declare the M DOA and finally "move on"?

At least with a living body, you know when it's DOA by the ceasing of human functions (heart-beat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). But with the spiritual condition of men, HOW would you know when to declare that the person will NEVER be brought back to God by repentance?

Sounds like dangerous ground there........

Hey,

Just wanted to weigh in on the latest posts.

Chris <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />So, first of all...ALL DIVORCE INVOLVES ADULTERY!<hr /></blockquote>No it doesn't.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, okay. If a married couple seperate, never divorce, never remarry, never have sex with someone else, then yes...there is not adultery. But, there is no such thing as no fault divorce in the Bible. There is always fault. And the Bible states that divorce can happen when there is the fault of sexual immorality. That's it. To do it any other way invites sin. If my wife and I "divorce" for no-fault, and I never have sex or remarry, but my wife does...she commits the sin of adultery. In God's eyes, she is still married to me, because He has said that the only divorce that he allows is for sexual immorality. That was not the case in this example. Now, once she does that, then I am free to remarry, because my wife has committed adultery.

But wait. I am also in trouble because I helped lead my wife into adultery by signing an earthly divorce, instead of doing as God says. So her adultery actually falls on me also.

So, if both spouses divorce by earthly terms, never remarry and never have sex again, then there is no adultery. God views them as seperated, because He does not recognize the divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Even if both spouses never cheated, if they decide to divorce and then remarry or just start sleeping with others, they are committing adultery!<hr /></blockquote>What if they just divorce, never had affairs and never remarry or sleep around?<hr /></blockquote>See above.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Next, it is stated in the New Testament that God allows remarriage to a widow<hr /></blockquote>You mean remarriage is allowed BY a widow.<hr /></blockquote>Right. Sorry...bad english!

Lupolady,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mortarman,
Here's the thing about your post: How long would one wait for one's spouse to repent before declaring the person "dead" to spiritual things? That would be a concern of mine.....why would we think we could decide when one has reached a point of no return, in essence, for repentance.<hr /></blockquote>It is not for us to decide individually. Read 1st Corinthians Chapter 7. God outlines how it is supposed to be done. A church court is established. The rebelling Christian is confronted, and if they refuse to obey, they are brought before the church. If they will then not do as God demands, they are to be put out of the church and treated like sinners and tax gatherers (spiritually dead). YOU do not do it...God's coroner, the church, does it (I am nondenominational, for those of you who wonder what "sect" I am).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know for myself, I was an adult when I repented of my sins for the first time, and decided to follow Christ. Even then, it wasn't a straight road of total faithfulness all those years till now. What if God has decided that if I didn't do it exactly right from then till now, I wasn't His child, and condemned to hell?<hr /></blockquote>He does not do this. He is a God of love and grace. He knows that you still have the sin nature. This life is a process. You will fail from time to time. But we arent talking about sinning here. We are talking about whayt is written in Hebrews 10, which is open rebellion. When you receive the knowledge of the truth, when you are confronted and still do what God does not want you to do, then God has limited himself as outlined in Hebrews 10. He says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Now, does that mean you are going to Hell? Of course not, just as me getting a spanking and sent to my room didnt mean that I was thrown out of my family when I was 10. Hell is a choice. By accepting Jesus in your life, Hell is no longer an option for you. But it also means that a process of sanctification is started where you begin your walk with Jesus. And God loves you too much to let you stand still. And He certainly loves His Son so much that He will not allow any believer to "trample" His Son's bllod under their feet. He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />How can we know when enough is enough, and our UNrepentant spouse is going to remain UNrepentant forever? HOW LONG is long enough to wait for them to repent and return to the Lord? When can we declare the M DOA and finally "move on"?<hr /></blockquote>You do not declare your spouse spiritually DOA, just as you wouldnt be the one to declare them physically DOA. There must be a coroner. That isnt YOU! One of the things that was happening concurrent with my Plan B was that I had started the process of 1st Corinthians 7 with my wife. I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." What kind of father would allow their child to continue that way?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />At least with a living body, you know when it's DOA by the ceasing of human functions (heart-beat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). But with the spiritual condition of men, HOW would you know when to declare that the person will NEVER be brought back to God by repentance?<hr /></blockquote>You dont know when brain waves, blood flow end. Even if you did, you still dont declare them dead. there is a process. There is a person that does do that...the coroner. In the spiritual realm, it is the same. In 1st Corinthians 7, it talks about Jesus saying that when two or more believers meet, He will be there. Be there when they pray? Well, sure. Be there in their troubles? Sure. But that wasnt the context of that passage. That chapter was talking about the establ;ishment of a church court and disciplining believers. And Jesus said He will be there with them as they do this. That is how we KNOW when to declare them spiritually dead. It is how we KNOW that when they are declared such, that it was the right judgment. This is because God PROMISED that He would be there in the process, and the decision.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sounds like dangerous ground there........
<hr /></blockquote>Well, it is. It is dangerous for everyone. That is why it is spelled out in Hebrews 10 (the offense) and 1st Corinthians 7 (the court). It is in this way that God has given us the ability to do His will here.

He is very straight forward on this. He has set up the rules on how to do this.

And when it comes to marriage and divorce, He set up marriage. It was His idea. Thus, the local courthouse does not have to power to over rule what God established. And God said that there is divorce for one reason. And until that reason has been met, you are still married. And then, it goes on in the above two listed passages, to describe how that divorce is to happen. You cant just declare yourself divorced in the world. Human law will not allow that. You have to go through the process. God's law is no different. There is a process...follow it and you will be fine. Dont follow it, and you invite disaster.

When I started the process with the church, I was DONE with my wife's affair, done with the marriage. I was in Plan B, but in my heart, I was in Plan D. But I knew that if I took it before the church, it was possible that my wife might recant and come back inline. And then I would no longer have the right to divorce her. Because by her asking for forgiveness, and coming out of rebellion, she was no longer "dead," and could not be declared so by the church. And as it says in the Bible, remarriage is only allowed if your spouse is dead, physically or spiritually.

If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says. And my wife came back to me. She hadnt been declared dead yet. Thus, if I was to follow my God and not rebel myself, I had no choice but to forgive her and accept her back.

In His arms.

[ July 10, 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortarman:
A church court is established. The rebelling Christian is confronted, and if they refuse to obey, they are brought before the church. If they will then not do as God demands, they are to be put out of the church and treated like sinners and tax gatherers (spiritually dead). <hr /></blockquote>I have a problem with having a church tribunal do this. I guess I'm saying just b/c someone won't repent the day they are brought before the church court, doesn't mean they NEVER will!

I wouldn't disagree with the "right" of the BS to do this, and then to "move on" - if that is what they are seeking to do. Most of the time, the WS breaks the M vows once they engage in an A, and adulterous behavior, no doubt about that.

I believe this whole ugly mess created by an A can be a test for us. It can be a test of our faithfulness to our M vows......to our S, to God. I'm not talking to you personally, here, OK? I'm just saying that this "process" - of being allowed to go before your church elders and declare your WS "dead" - so you can file for D. and "move on" doesn't seem like the way God wants us to handle this. We M for life. We take our vows before God, "For better or worse, in sickness and health, in good times and in bad......" -- You know the deal....

I am having a problem bringing this type of "sin" up before the elders of the church when dealing with your S.....after all, Christ wants us to respect, love and cherish our S's. IMHO, this hardly seems like the proper technique to show that love.

MM, you referred to open rebellion by our WS's. I understand this. I also understand that xH and I were lving our lives in open rebellion of God's plan for both of us for a very long time......

I often wonder "Is that why God allowed this mess to overtake our lives?"

So God is punishing us for that rebellion? By busting up my M, and taking my H away, and allowing him to enter into an adulterous relationship? Filing for divorce without biblical grounds? To what end? So he would be further away from God, and further sinning would be taking place? See where this kind of thinking has gotten me?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />....in Hebrews 10....says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences.<hr /></blockquote>I think that IS true! I know this, our "mess" has brought me back to the Lord. It has brought me to repentance, and to understand all the ways I failed. I failed my M by not being a christian W to my H. I failed my Lord by not being a faithful Xn, and now look at my mess! Don't feel sorry for me...........I know and believe all this stuff. I KNOW all this has happened for His higher purpose. I am trusting and believing HE knows what He is doing! PTL.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).<hr /></blockquote>OK, here's my point. HOW can you expect grace to be given to someone you've just had your church declare dead[/b}!?!?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." <hr /></blockquote>Well, here again, I believe God WILL reel in the WS, [b]at His appointed time! Doesn't always happen the way it happened with your W. Not all WS's "see the error of their ways" immediately, repent, and come into the fold with all manner of guilt, repentance, etc.

No, it is NOT love to leave your S in open rebellion. My WS does NOT want to hear about his rebellion. He DID actually say to me, "I don't care what God wants, I want out of this M, I want this Div!" Hauling his sorry butt before a church tribunal would have accomplished nothing at this juncture. I DO believe a time will come when he WILL repent, come back to the Lord, and join me in my new church (you see, we weren't even attending church when he left!), repentant, sanctifiied and washed of all the sin of this A. Why do I believe that? 'Cause it's what I'm praying for. I am praying to save his sorry butt from the pits of hell and the devastation of his life from the trap that satan has him in.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says. <hr /></blockquote>I totally agree with this. Only thing you and I can disagree on here is the idea that once the church declares your S "dead" - well then you MIGHT AS WELL move forward w/Plan D.

I'm just not ready to do that.

Funny thing is, I always thought *I* would be the one who would tell him to take a flying LEAP!!!! When presented with the opportunity to do it, the Lord directed me to lots of places that said I wasn't to go that way.

Now, it occurs to me that had the shoe been on the other foot (not that I would have "cheated" - but our problems were so severe at one point) I would be the one to leave....and my H would NOT have the inner strength to "pray me through it."

My g/f and I were talking about this very subject the other day....and she made that astute observation: She said I am the "stronger" one in our M. Stronger emotionally, spiritually, etc. and so if I had left, H would NOT have been able to handle it, and certainly wouldn't have been able to "pray me through it" as stated above. Therefore, NO ONE to stand in the gap.....which is what I feel I'm doing for our M....fighting the good fight against the fiery darts the enemy is using to destroy us (now mostly him).

Actually, to clear up a point, I'm not sure my H did "cheat" prior to our Div. I mean, he moved in immediately w/ow on the day he moved out of here.....BUT - in his defense, he HAD already filed for Div, had the paperwork in the system, so I think in his mind he was already div'd, so was "free" to date! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway, nice to discuss these points with you, MM, even tho we seem to be in total opposition on some of these issues! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

LL,

Thanks for the continued discussion. I do want you to understand that we may not be as far apart aas you might think right now. Let me explain by answering your post below.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have a problem with having a church tribunal do this. I guess I'm saying just b/c someone won't repent the day they are brought before the church court, doesn't mean they NEVER will! <hr /></blockquote>Oh, this is true! I totally agree. But this divorce process is about the betrayed spouse, not the WS. God's rules about divorce have nothing to do with helping or justifying the WS. In the case of a biblical divorce, it is all about the BS.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wouldn't disagree with the "right" of the BS to do this, and then to "move on" - if that is what they are seeking to do. Most of the time, the WS breaks the M vows once they engage in an A, and adulterous behavior, no doubt about that.<hr /></blockquote>That is what divorce (biblical, not worldly) is all about. It is about the BS. You see, while some BSs can overcome the A and try to regain their marriage (God's will is ALWAYS for the marriage to survive and prosper...He hates divorce), there are others that cannot. It is just too much for them. So God allowed (permitted) them to divorce, and outlined to them how it is supposed to be done.

The rules God established werent for the WS. They have no rights in this process. The rules were established to protect the BS. So, God gives us BSs two choices. First is to try to save our marriage, which is His will. The second is that He PERMITS divorce. As one person reminded me when I was in Plan A, that God will not tell you to divorce your mate...because it is never His will for you to divorce. He just permits it under the circumstances and rules previously outlined.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe this whole ugly mess created by an A can be a test for us. It can be a test of our faithfulness to our M vows......to our S, to God.<hr /></blockquote>YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT! It is a test. Some BSs pass it. Others just cant. Mostly because of the extreme pain that the WS has caused. So, God says that even though the BS might fail the test, He will not hold it against them if they decide to divorce (biblically).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not talking to you personally, here, OK? I'm just saying that this "process" - of being allowed to go before your church elders and declare your WS "dead" - so you can file for D. and "move on" doesn't seem like the way God wants us to handle this.<hr /></blockquote>His word is very plain in 1st Corinthians 7. His rules, not mine. Of course, as I said above, God's will is for marriages to stay together and prosper.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We M for life. We take our vows before God, "For better or worse, in sickness and health, in good times and in bad......" -- You know the deal....<hr /></blockquote>I TOTALLY agree with you on this. That is why I am still with my wife. I believe this also.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am having a problem bringing this type of "sin" up before the elders of the church when dealing with your S.....after all, Christ wants us to respect, love and cherish our S's. IMHO, this hardly seems like the proper technique to show that love.<hr /></blockquote>It is neither respect nor love to allow someone to continue to live in sin, to live in rebellion. You bring this before the church because God does not want family business brought up in the street. Some other Christian owes you money? Dont sue them in court...take it to the Church. God states in Hebrews 10 that if you do these types of things outside of His rules, then you have already lost. He wants things decided in the church. Since Jesus promised to be there when two or more are gathered, then we know that a church court properly put together and under the influence of the Holy Spirit, is much better, fairer, etc than any worldly court.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM, you referred to open rebellion by our WS's. I understand this. I also understand that xH and I were lving our lives in open rebellion of God's plan for both of us for a very long time......<hr /></blockquote>All maybe true. But are you still in rebellion? Open rebellion? Sin is rebellion. But the rebellion I speak of is something different. It is being told that God only allows divorce for marital unfaithfulness, and then proceeding with your no-fault divorce anyway. Rebellion is faced with the knowledge of the truth (confronted by His word, by the Holy Spirit and/or other Christians), you still chose your own way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I often wonder "Is that why God allowed this mess to overtake our lives?"<hr /></blockquote>Free will. That is why He allowed it. And yes, He will allow adversity to strengthen us...not destroy us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So God is punishing us for that rebellion? By busting up my M, and taking my H away, and allowing him to enter into an adulterous relationship? Filing for divorce without biblical grounds? To what end? So he would be further away from God, and further sinning would be taking place? See where this kind of thinking has gotten me?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[quote]in Hebrews 10....says here that He will not allow his Son's blood to cover that sin, that rebellion. That you, and you alone, are to bear the full brunt of the consequences.<hr /></blockquote>I think that IS true! I know this, our "mess" has brought me back to the Lord. It has brought me to repentance, and to understand all the ways I failed. I failed my M by not being a christian W to my H. I failed my Lord by not being a faithful Xn, and now look at my mess! Don't feel sorry for me...........I know and believe all this stuff. I KNOW all this has happened for His higher purpose. I am trusting and believing HE knows what He is doing! PTL.<hr /></blockquote>Keep this up! You are walking in His will!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />He will not give you grace in the case of rebellion until AFTER the consequences of that rebellion are served (see 2nd Samuel about David and Bathsheba).<hr /></blockquote>OK, here's my point. HOW can you expect grace to be given to someone you've just had your church declare dead[/b}!?!?<hr /></blockquote>If they were saved, they are still saved, even when declared "dead." It says in 1st Corinthians 7, that the believer should be considered a sinner and tax gatherer. Now, once declared spiritually dead, what happens? Well ,they can continue to live in sin, and reap the consequences of their rebellion. Or they can repent, and thus forgiven. Grace is given with repentance. Do you see? It is like a family. The child rebels. Dad puts him in timeout. He continues to rebel, and continues to thus receive punishment. Finally, there is sorrow and repentance and the child is allowed to join the family functions again. Now, was he ever out of the family? Of course not. But Dad was not going to allow rebellion. He loves the child too much. And thus God loves the wayward believer too much to allow them to continue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />I had talked to the pastor. he had pulled together deacons to come talk to me, and then talk to her. He readied the church so that if it came to it, that this would be brought before the whole church. My wife doesnt know it, but she was only a week away from being visited by the deacons, when she decided to come home.

It is not love to leave your spouse in rebellion. By bringing them before the church, they are given the option to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to put their life back right, or to rebel and tell God "I dont care what You say...I am going to do this my way." <hr /></blockquote>Well, here again, I believe God WILL reel in the WS, [b]at His appointed time!<hr /></blockquote>True. And He has ways of doing that. Most importantly, in 1st Corinthians 7, it says you should first confront the believer in love. keep it at its lowest level. If they still rebel, then you must take it to the church.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Doesn't always happen the way it happened with your W. Not all WS's "see the error of their ways" immediately, repent, and come into the fold with all manner of guilt, repentance, etc.<hr /></blockquote>Very, very true! That is not the issue. The issue is protecting other believers from the rebels behavior. It is also to allow God to use His rules in order to get the attention of the wayward believer. It may happen overnight. It may happen two years later. Their hearts might harden and it might not ever happen. But there should be no mistake here...God intends for the believer to be brought back into the fold, and He will use ANYTHING in order to do that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No, it is NOT love to leave your S in open rebellion. My WS does NOT want to hear about his rebellion. He DID actually say to me, "I don't care what God wants, I want out of this M, I want this Div!" Hauling his sorry butt before a church tribunal would have accomplished nothing at this juncture.<hr /></blockquote>Well, you might be right. But you might be wrong to. It goes on in Scripture to talk about the fact that when this process is done and the believer is declared spiritually dead, that he/she is thrown into the realm of Satan. Not a very nice place to be, for sure. Why? So that the pain will increase, that the believer be brought back into the fold. It is punishment. It is punishment in love, just as punishing your child is in love.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I DO believe a time will come when he WILL repent, come back to the Lord, and join me in my new church (you see, we weren't even attending church when he left!), repentant, sanctifiied and washed of all the sin of this A. Why do I believe that? 'Cause it's what I'm praying for. I am praying to save his sorry butt from the pits of hell and the devastation of his life from the trap that satan has him in.<hr /></blockquote>And you are doing great! And this is the way it should be done. And God will reward YOU for your patience and faith. But understand, there is another way for those that cannot continue. Or for those that believe that this may be the only way to have their spouse wake up.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />If your spouse dies on the operating table...but then comes back to life a few minutes later, can you remarry? Of course not. Even though they were technically dead, they came back to life before a coroner could declare them legally dead. Same goes in the spiritual realm. Until your spouse is declared spiritually dead by the church, they arent dead. And thus, as a Christian, I had no right to continue to pursue my divorce with my wife when she came to me asking reconciliation. She wasnt dead anymore, and had never been declared dead by the church. And thus, in God's eyes, I had no grounds for divorce.

And it really doesnt matter what the world says. If you are a Christian, it should only matter what God says.<hr /></blockquote>I totally agree with this. Only thing you and I can disagree on here is the idea that once the church declares your S "dead" - well then you MIGHT AS WELL move forward w/Plan D.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, I do not believe this. Just because they are declared spiritually dead does not mean that is time for divorce. Having to go through this process is an act of love, of faith. Faith that once your spouse is released to the consequences of their actions, that God will use the trials that come from that to bring your spouse to repentance. It does not mean divorce. If you want a divorce, then you have to go this way. But if you still want to save your marriage, you will find that God's process will allow the wayward believer to reap their 'rewards' and to move toward repentance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm just not ready to do that. Funny thing is, I always thought *I* would be the one who would tell him to take a flying LEAP!!!! When presented with the opportunity to do it, the Lord directed me to lots of places that said I wasn't to go that way.

Now, it occurs to me that had the shoe been on the other foot (not that I would have "cheated" - but our problems were so severe at one point) I would be the one to leave....and my H would NOT have the inner strength to "pray me through it."

My g/f and I were talking about this very subject the other day....and she made that astute observation: She said I am the "stronger" one in our M. Stronger emotionally, spiritually, etc. and so if I had left, H would NOT have been able to handle it, and certainly wouldn't have been able to "pray me through it" as stated above. Therefore, NO ONE to stand in the gap.....which is what I feel I'm doing for our M....fighting the good fight against the fiery darts the enemy is using to destroy us (now mostly him).<hr /></blockquote>Again, God's will is for the marriage to prosper. Keep following His direction...you cant do wrong.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Actually, to clear up a point, I'm not sure my H did "cheat" prior to our Div. I mean, he moved in immediately w/ow on the day he moved out of here.....BUT - in his defense, he HAD already filed for Div, had the paperwork in the system, so I think in his mind he was already div'd, so was "free" to date! <hr /></blockquote>And until God says he isnt married, then he is still married. And thus, he is cheating, he is committing adultery...he is in rebellion if he is a believer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Anyway, nice to discuss these points with you, MM, even tho we seem to be in total opposition on some of these issues!<hr /></blockquote>Like I said, I think we are closer than you think. You are a strong woman, and definitely show that you have great faith in the Lord. Keep following Him. But remember, He created marriage. And He has established rules for human interaction. If you follow them, you cannot go wrong.

In His arms.

[ July 11, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

ooppps...somehow my original post above didnt all come thru. I just edited it, so now it is uptodate.

Okay, simple question.

I divorced my ex because in addition to her affair, I have only seen her 3 times in the last 4.5 years and haven't talked with her more than 30 minutes total in the last 2.5 years.

I never committed adultery.
According to the bible, can I get remarried?

CHRIS,
I think so.
One site I found helpful was www.newlife.com. In their archive of questions and answers, someone asked about remarriage. They responded with:
"Most biblical scholars I have taught with believe permission to remarry is implied in Matthew 5 and Mathew 19 and I Cor. 7. For example, in Matthew 19:9, Jesus clearly says, "whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery. It seems clear that it is okay to remarry once the spouse (or ex-spouse) has sex with someone else.
I agree with this and believe that God would bless you, and me, with a GODLY spouse if we pray to Him and it is His will. . I believe if it was not his will, that he would give me the spiritual gift of celibacy. I do NOT believe that God wants us to wait for our spouses forever - especially in blatant abandonment or adultery such as our own situations. Forgive, yes. Stay stuck, no.

If you read my post about restore ministries, you will see that I am disagreed with some on this situation, but this is how I interpret the Bible and I am at peace with it and with my relationship with Christ.

[ July 11, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

Chris,

Of course! Now, did you divorce her in the local court system, or the church before the court? Big question here.

Let's say you did it thru the church, as 1st Corinthins 7 spells out. And then went to the local courts to do it legally. Then you are okay to be remarried, because your wife was declared spiritually dead, and you are thus free to be remarried, only in the Lord (which means only to another believer).

But, let's say you didnt have her declared spiritually dead. You had grounds for divorce, but didnt go thru the process as outlined by God. Well, then by God's standard, you were still married, even after the court issued a decree of divorcement. Why? Because God has told us why we can get a divorce, and how to do it. You would have had the "why" but not the "how." Your wife was not declared spiritually dead by the church, thus you did not have grounds for divorce, nor the ability to remarry.

Now, if that has happened, you have done a legal divorce, she has remarried and maybe you have also. What do you do now? Well, you do as the woman was instructed at the well...you go and sin no more. Once you have the knowledge of the truth (and I didnt know any of this stuff either until I was stuck in this and was counseled and did research), then you are responsible to act upon the truth. If then you do not act upon the truth, then you will be in rebellion. And thus, Hebrews 10 spells out what will happen to those believers in rebellion.

A lot of Christians have never been educated to this, have never even studied the Bible. So they dont understand. Thus, they divorce, even when they have grounds, and dont know that what they are doing is unacceptable to God. And consequences come from that, even though it is from ignorance. But, once you have the truth, you must act upon it.

The truth is God hates divorce. But he permits it for marital unfaithfulness. Actually, He allows it for spiritual death, which includes marital unfaithfulness, desertion, among several. That is another discussion.

Since He only permits a fault divorce, then the point here is who is it that must rule if there is fault. The BS? Of course not. The local judge? Nope. He/she isnt bound by God's law. No, it must be determined if you have grounds based upon a church court, where they review the evidence and make a ruling. In that process, Jesus has promised that He will be there. And that means the verdict rendered will be His verdict.

So, the short of it is that if you did it the way God has laid it out, then yes, you are permitted to remarry. If you didnt, then you too in God's eyes, committed adultery when you moved onto a new spouse (if you remarried). But, although that may make you and some others uncomfortable, God does allow for ignorance. So, He doesnt let Hebrews 10 descend upon those that didnt know. It says in Hebrews 10 that if you KNOWINGLY rebel, then there is no sacrifice for that sin. No grace will cover the consequences.

When I heard this and read it I was floored. I had started pushing forward a civil divorce. And now this. I was looking forward to finding someone new. And then I find out that I am doing it all wrong, and will pay for it later if I continue. And also, I realized that if I did it the right way, that my wife MIGHT repent and come back before the process is done.

I believe that the reason my wife was brought out of the fog in January is because instead of pushing a worldly divorce and going for someone new, I started the process to have her declared spiritually dead. And because of my obedience, God rewarded me by having the fog lift on my wife and her come home.

I hope that helps.

In His arms.

I just did it though the civil courts.
We were married Catholic. It was not really a big deal to me, as long it was Christian. I was baptized Catholic but never did my first communion, so I wasn't a "real" Catholic (or any kind of Catholic in any sense of the word either). The church even kept my original Baptismal certificate (since I wasn't "real"?). I was pissed because it was signed by my Grandmaother , who was my Godmother.

Let's say you did it thru the church, as 1st Corinthins 7 spells out.)
This religious "divorce" is not the same as an annulment, correct? And is it even something the Catholic church believes in?

Chris,

No it isnt an annulment. I am not Catholic, so I am not sure exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

I do know that the Bible does not speak of annulments. You are either married or you get divorced. And only for the reasons outlined in the Bible. And only the way in which God outlined it. So I am not sure what an annulment really accomplishes because once the "I do's" are said, you are married...and then only God can seperate that union, based on the criteria He outlined in Scripture.

In His arms.

From my (little) understanding, a Catholic annulment means that a "valid" marriage never occurred.
A divorce is "okay" (meaning you don't have to stay married) as long as you do not remarry.

In order to get married (again), you must have the first marriage "annuled" because according the the Catholic church, there can be only one marriage and it is for life.

I don't believe that you HAVE to bring it before the church to declare the spouse spiritually dead in order to be divorced in God's eyes. Yes, that is in 1 Corinthians 7 and IS a way. But Matthew 5:32 clearly states that you can divorce your spouse for sexual unfaithfulness. Matthew 19:9 clearly states you can remarry if your spouse committed adultery. And in Proverbs, it says that the way of the adulteress leads down the pathway of death. These are all passages that show that my husband is spiritually dead at this moment. We were not members of a church at the time of the divorce. I am a member now at an interdenominational church. So how could I have brought my x before a church? I was a Christian, but not a member anywhere. I DID get my husband to go with me to that church a few times, and I did talk to the pastor and his wife about him. But the pastor's wife said that since I had confronted him with the adultery, and then his friend Sean confronted him with it, and then we went to counseling, and then we talked to a Christian couple who went through the same things, and then I asked him to come to church with me and he only would occassionally- the pastor's wife said i had done all I could and so had the others, that he was confronted by Christian witnesses and that since he was not a member of the church that I had done all that could be done, and I was free to move on. I was a little hesitant about this because I felt like the church should have done something, but again, he wasn't a member. And I went through the process as much as possible. I believe I am free to remarry. The Bible clearly says adultery is grounds for divorce, and clearly says UNLESS a spouse committed sexual unfaithfulness that remarriage was adultery- but he did. And the Bible again, clearly says that adultery leads down the pathway to death.

Hey ADGirl,

Thanks for joining the fray! I wanted to address your points here. First I want to say that I am not an expert. Over the last year, I have studied, been to counseling, and asked pastors, etc. what the situation is here with marriage, adultery, divorce and remarriage. I have read the Bible over and over as people bring things new to me. And over this, I have found the following information.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't believe that you HAVE to bring it before the church to declare the spouse spiritually dead in order to be divorced in God's eyes. Yes, that is in 1 Corinthians 7 and IS a way. But Matthew 5:32 clearly states that you can divorce your spouse for sexual unfaithfulness. Matthew 19:9 clearly states you can remarry if your spouse committed adultery. And in Proverbs, it says that the way of the adulteress leads down the pathway of death. These are all passages that show that my husband is spiritually dead at this moment.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, let's start here. You bring up excellent passages that show when and how a believer is spiritually dead. All of these, and a few more, outline when this happens. The problem here is who decides when a person is spiritually dead? The spouse? What if the adultery was a one time fling while under the influence of alcohol? And the WS is repentant immediately afterwards and comes forward asking forgiveness and grace? Are they spiritually dead? Were they before they asked for forgiveness? The answer is not readily available. We cannot see into another man's (woman's) heart. We dont know if they are spiritually dead. We dont know what is going on. So, there has to be someone that can tell us. The only person that can do that is Jesus Himself. And Jesus has outlined in 1st Cor 7 how He does that. He doesnt say that this is one way to do this. He says that if your brother (sister) sins against you, this is how you take care of it. He doesnt say this is ONE WAY to take care of it. Again, there is no doubt that says what adultery does to a believer. There is no doubt what rebellion does to the believer. But the question still remains...who decides if that person is spiritually dead. Fortunately, Jesus has given us the way to find that out...through the process of 1st Corinthians 7. And this doesnt just apply to adultery. If your brother sins against you, no matter what the sin, 1st Corinthians 7 outlines how to handle it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We were not members of a church at the time of the divorce. I am a member now at an interdenominational church. So how could I have brought my x before a church? I was a Christian, but not a member anywhere.<hr /></blockquote>A Christian church is a Christian church. So, a Methodist who just moved to the area, and decided to start going to the local Baptist church, could go to that church to have this taken care of. And if your husband is a believer, then he will be subject to that church court, in the name of Jesus Christ, even if he had never attended that church. Why is this? Because the church refers to the body of believers. Where does that body meet? In the church.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I DID get my husband to go with me to that church a few times, and I did talk to the pastor and his wife about him. But the pastor's wife said that since I had confronted him with the adultery, and then his friend Sean confronted him with it, and then we went to counseling, and then we talked to a Christian couple who went through the same things, and then I asked him to come to church with me and he only would occassionally- the pastor's wife said i had done all I could and so had the others, that he was confronted by Christian witnesses and that since he was not a member of the church that I had done all that could be done, and I was free to move on. I was a little hesitant about this because I felt like the church should have done something, but again, he wasn't a member. And I went through the process as much as possible.<hr /></blockquote>Sounds like you went through the first two parts of 1st Corinthians 7. Now, a lot of churches do not want to do this stuff...it is a lot of work! So, what you should have done is find a church that takes its responsibilities seriously. Not just dismiss things as "you have done all you can...get on with your life." My church that myu wife and I was hesitant to get involved. Right after the affair was made known, I took the kids to a different church a few times, and then began to feel comfortable. When I decided to pursue all of this, I had gone to our original church. But they were hesitant. So, I went to the pastor of my new church across town, and they said they would handle it, and they would actually coordinate with my old church, since they knew my wife. Now, my wife had never attended this new church. Added to this, the new church was a different denomination from the old one. But the new one took its responsibilities seriously.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe I am free to remarry. The Bible clearly says adultery is grounds for divorce, and clearly says UNLESS a spouse committed sexual unfaithfulness that remarriage was adultery- but he did. And the Bible again, clearly says that adultery leads down the pathway to death.<hr /></blockquote>And thus you are free to remarry, only in the Lord. You have grounds for divorce in God's eyes. But, do you get to declare the marriage over? Do you decide if he is spiritually dead? Like my scenario above, what if he repented before the divorce? Is he still "dead." You see, it is so hard for us to decide where the dividing line is between a mistake and spiritual death. That is why Jesus has set up the church court, with Him as the head. He says He will be there to direct that court in its decisions. Thus the decisions are right and binding.

You want to move on with your life and remarry? Fine. Then end the marriage first. How do you do that. Well, you dont go down to the courthouse and get the legal divorce. God does not recognize that. That divorce is a legal, worldly divorce. You must do that in order to be lawful. But God's laws say that even with a earthly divorce, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. No one ever ended the marriage.

Can one spouse just end the marriage when they want? Of course not. What God has put together, let no man put asunder. It requires God Himself to end the marriage. And only one way has He defined in the Bible on HOW TO do that.

We have laws in each state on how a divorce happens. Can you just wake up one day and say "My husband cheated on me...I have grounds...I have decided today that I am divorced."? Of course not. There is a process, where a judge renders the verdict. Even though the evidence is overwhelming that you have a right to be divorced, it still requires that you go before the judge and get that legal divorce. Until that happens, no matter what your husband has done, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED!

Well, God has spelled out the same thing in His law. You must go before a judge to have that marriage ended. That judge is the church. When the Bible talks about "Thou shalt not judge," it speaks of judging hypocritically. It is also speaking of judging and how to judge in the place of Christ.

We are to judge. But God has outlined the way to do this. Your husband may be spiritually dead, and even though there is overwhelmeing evidence to the fact, it takes a judge to declare him so.

Last analogy. If your husband was killed in a car accident, when are you no longer married? At the point he stopped breathing? Of course he was dead then. But legally (man's law), when are you no longer married? The answer is when the coroner declares him dead. Until then, according to the law, he isnt dead...and you are still married. Even if he has assumed room tempature!

So, spiritual death is the same thing. He may appear spiritually dead. He may actually be spiritually dead. But until God's judge or coroner (the church) declares him dead, then he is not officially dead...and you are still married.

In His arms.

That is why Jesus has set up the church court, with Him as the head. He says He will be there to direct that court in its decisions.
So is there some sort of "tribunal" in which churches (other than Catholic) decide on a religious divorce?

Or is this something the pastor decides?

ForeverHers:

I just saw this:

"2Long, a discussion of Christian principles between Christians is often going to be "unintelligible" to nonChristians."

Did you think I thought it was unintelligible? I was raised a Christian, though I don't "practice" 2day. No, I find this conversation intelligible, alright. I also find it rather bizarre.

"But, your "advice" to Jen is somewhat scary. You are back to "doing what you feel like doing" regardless of the consequences or the "rightness or wrongness".
Jen, please do not fall into that trap again."

Where in anything I've said, either here or anywhere else in my thousands of posts, have you gotten THIS idea?????????????????????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have followed Jen's story from her very first post here, and have found her character and morality 2 be no "lower" than anybody here, either WS or misguided BS (and I have been "off track" in my own search for healing for much of the past 18 months).

I'm saddened by her continued guilt. She seems 2 want 2 be punished, either by her H or, now, by God. AT some point, I hope that she recognizes the growth she's accomplished, perhaps even 2 the point that she could feel "forgiven" even if she marries someone after a DV.

-2long

MM, so what happens when there is no office of coronor (or equivalent), you remain married to a corpse?

btw, what happens (to your analogies etc.) when there is no body to declare dead?

[ July 11, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Good question sufdb....what if your spouse takes off- you can't bring them before the church then- so the BS just has to pay for the WS wrongdoings?

sufdb,

Excellent questions. And like any analogy, sometimes it doesnt fit perfectly. But let me try to answer this, based on what I have learned.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM, so what happens when there is no office of coronor (or equivalent), you remain married to a corpse?<hr /></blockquote>The point to this is that you do not get to divorce your spouse on your own accord. You do not decide the conditions. You do not decide whether you have grounds or not. You cannot decide that you are divorced today. It isnt that easy. There is a process set up by God. You must take it to the church (the body of believers). Until then, you are still married...and yes, to a "corpse."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />btw, what happens (to your analogies etc.) when there is no body to declare dead?<hr /></blockquote>Well, how do we handle soldiers missing in action. While they are still declared MIA, the wife is still married to a live individual (who may be dead, but we dont know it). It isnt until they are declared KIA that the spouse is allowed to get death benefits, etc. And then they are free to remarry as they are now a widow. Now, the soldier might have actually been dead for months or years. But, until he is legally declared dead, then he isnt dead according to the law...and the wife is still married to him. In the case of the church, the analogy fits when the church cannot confront the wayward spouse. It is then up to the church, just as it is up to the state in the legal sense, to take all information at hand to determine whether the spouse is spiritually dead, even in the absence of the spouse. They talk to witnesses and family members. And then deliberate, under the direction of the Holy Spirit. And then render a verdict.

Again, analogies dont always fit 100%. I hope I have at least explained this.

hmmm....the underlying theme here seems to be a conflict between individual self-determination and an external authority over an individual. We all recognize the rule of force, and that a state will enforce it's will on us (even to killing us if necessary). So the right to remarry (in absence) is determined by the state declaring kia, or dead in some other manner (like 911 mia's). But what if someone is simply missing, not presumed dead, one can petition the court for divorce, and it seems you are saying one can petition the church similarly. This neatly closes all the loopholes. I suppose if one is living on a deserted island there is no issue, cause no one to remarry (except the now dead/missing spouse). And if there is anyone else, then that comprises the "state" and or church, so you would seek permission from them? The idea being one is not allowed to make a unilateral decision without some external validation. I dunno MM, you have done a good job of making your case, and closing the loopholes, but your underlying principle troubles me, that being human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. I will have to think on this, but have enjoyed watching the discussion.

1 Corinthians 7 does not talk about the church declaring the spouse dead. I thought that was somewhere in Matthew. I just read 1 Corinthians 7 and did not read it. I did read how an unbeliever who leaves a believer- the believer is not bound. And that if a spouse is dead, the other spouse is free to remarry. But that passage does not say anything about the church governing it, unless I am missing it. I am familiar with the passage Mortarman is discussing, but I thought that was talking about ANY sin and that it was in the book of Matthew. I don't have time right now to find the exact passage but will look into it. However, I do think that sufdb has good points. And Mortarman, you do too- I just don't know how far I would go to agreeing with them. I guess it is true- take what you can use and leave the rest, and respect one another's opinions in the process.

SB,

Thanks for the post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I dunno MM, you have done a good job of making your case, and closing the loopholes, but your underlying principle troubles me, that being human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. I will have to think on this, but have enjoyed watching the discussion. <hr /></blockquote>Of course we can make unilateral decisions. My wife made the unilateral decision to commit adultery. She had freewill to do so. But she also knew there were consequences to those actions. You see, many people believe that for us to have true freewill, that God must give up His freewill. And this is not the case. His will is ALWAYS done. Now, we can be a hinderance to it, or a help. But the only person that gets "hurt" in this by not following His guidance, His will, is us. God gave us freewill so we would have choices. But he did not give up His ability to make choices also. He chose to say that there was only ONE WAY to reach him, and that was through His Son. He could have accepted other ways, other choices made by men. But He did not. And being God, He has the right to make that choice, to limit our choices.

Look, you are free to murder your next door neighbor. You have that choice. But understand that when you are locked up and face the consequences of that action, your freewill wasnt taken away. But, the freewill of the victim, the State, etc also must come into play. Thus, you pay the consequences of your freewill.

God has almost the same set-up. YUou have freewill. But so does He. And in His freewill, out of love, He has set conditions, standards, laws, etc. You have the "right" to do as you please. But He has the right to withhold grace and/or punish you for actions He deems are violations.

I hope that helped. I look forward to our continued discussion.

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I believe you've got it right. WE DO NOT have the "right" to make unilateral decisions....especially decisions that affect our "One-flesh mate" that we vowed unto God to cherish, love, protect, in sickness & health, good times and bad......" that whole scene again.

What MM has said is good..........

It is not a violation of our free will. We have free will. HOWEVER, every time we go against God's WILL for us, b/c of OUR "free will" - we risk being outside of His umbrella of protection on us. At that point, we leave ourselves open to slings of the devil, the world, our own sin can consume us, and all sorts of evil things await us out in the world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God's commandments which were laid down for us to live under were put in place to save us from a life of sin, pain, devastation and ultimate death. WHY would we continue to RUN from God toward THAT?!?!?!?!

Great discussion, everyone.

This thread really has taken on a life of its own, and I am glad that several of you have been able to engage in a good discussion.

Two quick things you can respond to if you like:

1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)

2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)

Have fun, discuss, I am just curious what your thoughts are on these two points.

Jen

Jen:

Well, *I* don't think so.

...but then, I'm destined 2 fry like a Frito in the Frying Pan of Haydes for my wayward beliefs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

don't mean 2 steer you wrong!

-2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
This thread really has taken on a life of its own, and I am glad that several of you have been able to engage in a good discussion.

Two quick things you can respond to if you like:

1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)

2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)

Jen<hr /></blockquote>Hi Jen, We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer. God has placed the government to decide weather the killer is guilty and if so weather to put them in prison or to death. In the case of sin this is a spiritual matter and the Bible clearly states that if a brother does you wrong you are to confront them, if they continue you are to take another with yor and confront again. If that doesn't work you are to take them before the church. The problem is that most churches in this country at least will not take on what the Bible clearly says thier responceability is will not do anything in fear of offending that person and causing that person to leave for good.

The bigest question with a wayword spouse is how long is too long to wait? God has waited until 11:59 for some of his childern to come home to him then they died at 12:00. I can not tell you how long is too long to wait for your h. At this time God is telling me to wait for my w! There have been many times where I have become just exhausted and want to move on; but God continues to tell me to wait, in his word. I also have to remember that even though I think I can't handle anymore God will never ask me to do anything that He feels I can't handle. Just remember Jen that there are a lot of people on this board that are praying for you! Smiaj

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SMIAJ:

i Jen, We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer. God has placed the government to decide weather the killer is guilty and if so weather to put them in prison or to death. ]<hr /></blockquote>SM, I think you are confusing legal judgement with moral judgement. The courts are in place to determine LEGAL guilt and render legal judgement based on the law. That is an entirely different matter from judging sin. Christians most certainly are called to judge sin according to God's standards. They are called to judge right from wrong.

A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement."

[ July 11, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Jen:

Well, *I* don't think so.

...but then, I'm destined 2 fry like a Frito in the Frying Pan of Haydes for my wayward beliefs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long<hr /></blockquote>Naw, I am sure that God plans on dragging you into heaven against your will, 2Long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[oh wait! then heaven would be hell!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

MM..Of course we can make unilateral decisions. My wife made the unilateral decision to commit adultery. She had freewill to do so. But she also knew there were consequences to those actions.

s...That is not what I meant, I wasn't really clear enough. If all freewill means is ignoring external constraints on your choices (and suffering consequences), it is not freewill (it is disobedience). For freewill to make any sense the individual must have the means within themself to make acceptable unilateral decisions. Your argument does not allow this decision path, but makes each of us subservient to the will of other wo/men. That is unacceptable for an individualistic species, it is more akin to group species (such as insects). If we had the means (and we do) to determnine God's will for us, then freewill applies. Since God specifies our relationship is personal and cannot be abridged by anyone, that would seem to cast into question your arguements about absolutely needing external validation for our decisions. You argue from a standpoint of perfection. That being a church body will never err, will not have any personal agendas, etc. etc. That is clearly impossible. The ultimate authority in our assessment of choice (if freewill exists) must be the individual.

MM...Look, you are free to murder your next door neighbor. You have that choice. But understand that when you are locked up and face the consequences of that action, your freewill wasnt taken away. But, the freewill of the victim, the State, etc also must come into play. Thus, you pay the consequences of your freewill.

s...I have no problem with the concept of consequence...whether it arise from a choice to murder, or a choice to give over your personal choice to a church tribunal.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lupo..Yes, I believe you've got it right. WE DO NOT have the "right" to make unilateral decisions....especially decisions that affect our "One-flesh mate" that we vowed unto God to cherish, love, protect, in sickness & health, good times and bad......" that whole scene again.

s...Are you speaking of a moral code (choice), or an inherent capacity (the ability to do something). I am speaking of right in the latter sense, no value judgement implied, substitute the word capacity if right is to bothersome.

lupo..It is not a violation of our free will. We have free will. HOWEVER, every time we go against God's WILL for us, b/c of OUR "free will" - we risk being outside of His umbrella of protection on us. At that point, we leave ourselves open to slings of the devil, the world, our own sin can consume us, and all sorts of evil things await us out in the world.

s...sounds about right to me.

lupo...God's commandments which were laid down for us to live under were put in place to save us from a life of sin, pain, devastation and ultimate death. WHY would we continue to RUN from God toward THAT?!?!?!?!

s...Don't know. But I do know some of the confusion arises over conflicting opinions about God's will....especially when "I" am telling "YOU"what His will for you is. I don't think anyone can do that.

jen..1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?"

s...Who else is available?

Everyone, this has been a great discussion. I am enjoying it.

First, let me get to Jen's questions.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)<hr /></blockquote>Christians are supposed to judge sin. As a matter of fact, when the end comes, we will sit with Christ in judgment of those that did not follow Jesus, and those angels that fell. We are to judge a righteous judgment, as was stated above. The Bible tells us to render this judgment, but how do we do this? As I have outlined before, the basis of a righteous judgment is through the Holy Spirit. We can make such a judgment because we are guided by God Himself. Now, can we make mistakes? Of course, when we do not listen, bring in personal agendas...and generally do not judge righteously.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, the answer is YES. Now, I say that is unfortunate because the BS did not deserve the behavior of the WS. Unfortunate because the pain caused by the WS is such that they will never know the depths of despair that they have caused. And unfortunate that some BSs are forced into a dilemna such as you just laid out.

But, make no mistake. God has said His peace about marriage, adultery, divorce, and remarriage. That is why it is said in the New Testament, when these conditions of marriage were outlined, that it is better to stay unmarried. This is NOT easy, as all of us here can attest.

What is marriage all about? It is basically about bringing to Earth the relationship we have with Christ. Ephesians details some of the responsibilities of the wife and husband. The wife is to treat her husband as we treat Christ. The husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church (believers). Now, we are flesh. We cannot be perfection. We make mistakes, even horrendous ones.

When your spouse committed adultery, who did he/she sin against? You? Sure. Your children and or family? Yep. God? YES! One thing my pastor told me when I first counseled with him after finding out about my wife's affair was that she wasn't leaving me, she wasn't rejecting me...she was rejecting Christ.

Christ gave His life for my wife. He paid the price so she wouldnt have to. As a believer, she knows this. When she walked away from our marriage, she walked away from Christ's sacrifice and basically said "I dont care what you did, I am hurting, and I will do this my way."

Now, if you gave your life for someone, and then they act in a way that tells you that they could care less, how would that make you feel? Hurt? Do you see where I am going here?

Your spouse sinned against you and hurt you. But you never gave your life for them. Christ did. And your spouse walked away from Him.

But guess what? Even though they have walked away, if that WS asks for forgiveness and repents, Christ will forgive and accept them home. ALWAYS! The Bible says that if we do not forgive, He will not forgive us.

Our relationship with Christ is THE most important relationship we have. So, if our spouse, before they are no longer our spouse, asks for forgiveness and has repented, we are called to do as Christ does for us everyday.

Never ask for what you deserve. What we DESERVE is to burn in hell for our sins. But God has provided grace, based on love. He has paid the price for our transgressions, so that we will not get what we deserve.

Do you think that the sins you committed today are any different than the sins that our spouses committed? All sin has the same result...death. No matter how big, nor small.

Our pain is real. But so was Christ's. The betrayal of our love was real, but so is the betrayal of Christ's love that our spouses committed.

And Christ will forgive them and restore them. Can we possibly do any different?

It is hard to do so. Believe me, I am in recovery and many days, it is a trial to move forward, to try to get over what my wife has dones. But God has promised us strength, blessings, etc. if we will follow His intruction, His will.

I feel His hand on my shoulder, even today. I am on a two week deployment. The last time I was deployed (for 7 months), my wife entered into an adulterous relationship. How much pain do you think I feel as I am apart for the first time since this happened? How many triggers do you think are coming up? But I just kneel and ask God for the protection and strength that He promised. And He does.

Want some proof? I was talking to my wife last night. Anyone that has followed myh story knows that my wife has great anger for my family, especially my mother, because of the things they did while I was gone to Bosnia (they hired PIs, etc to uncover her affair). She has said barely a sentence to them since I got back.

Until lately. The last few weeks, during my sons baseball games, I have found my mom and my wife in discussions about the kids, her job, etc.

Another issue that my wife has had is going to church. She really has been angry at God ( a separate thread is needed for that). But lately, she has talked about going to church. Well, our old church is filled with people that also undermined her affair.

Now with all that background, my wife tells me last night that she has been talking with my mother the last few days, and they are going to church together this Sunday...to our old church.

CHRIST CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING! His wounds of His death are still on him. The scars are still there. And so will be our scars. But we can be healed. We can bring our spouses home again and find love between us that defies logic.

But, it is all about Him. We do it His way, then it will work out for our good.

In His arms.

We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.

so MM while the discussion goes on I am curious about something, what is marriage to you? (Not looking for a religious dissertation). Do you find your motivation in following God's rules (as you interpret them), and who/what/etc. your wife is, of less importance. In other words the quality of your marriage is not a factor in how you view marriage, it would make no difference who you were married to, you would continue the arrangement, even if you lived a lifetime in an empty, lonely marriage? All this theory is fine, but you know as well as I, that millions of people live in empty, neglectful, lonely marriages....won't even go into emotional, verbal abuse....(will accept we all agree physical abuse is a legitimate get out free card). Do they just endure for a lifetime? There are no other standards, just the very instant, nanosecond you agree (to whatever passes for social recognition of marriage in ones culture), you are "yoked" for your entire life?

One misstep, one mistake, decieved by the one pursuing you, ignorant yourself of proper mate selection, whatever, you are done? Your life (on earth as a partner in a healthy happy marriage) is done, ended, fini, never to be? Suppose you are some 15 (age of consent in most cultures) 16, 17 whatever yo, and you marry a complete loser, you are bound to them, must service them, must give them children etc. etc. no matter how undesireable the marriage is. And you must do this for the rest of your life......why?

[ July 12, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

We are ALL sinners and betrayers, and acknowledging it with humility is a step towards God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.<hr /></blockquote>s..Where?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
We are ALL sinners and betrayers, and acknowledging it with humility is a step towards God.<hr /></blockquote>s..If you acnpwledge it without humility then it doesn't count? So Christianity is predicated on being humble? What about rightousness (not a humble behavior). What about acceptance (not a humble behaviour). What about even acknowledgement in anger, fear, or despair...that is not a step towards God?

SB,

You pose alot of GREAT questions. Many of these have been the central questions I have raised in my situation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />so MM while the discussion goes on I am curious about something, what is marriage to you? (Not looking for a religious dissertation). Do you find your motivation in following God's rules (as you interpret them), and who/what/etc. your wife is, of less importance. In other words the quality of your marriage is not a factor in how you view marriage, it would make no difference who you were married to, you would continue the arrangement, even if you lived a lifetime in an empty, lonely marriage? All this theory is fine, but you know as well as I, that millions of people live in empty, neglectful, lonely marriages....won't even go into emotional, verbal abuse....(will accept we all agree physical abuse is a legitimate get out free card). Do they just endure for a lifetime? There are no other standards, just the very instant, nanosecond you agree (to whatever passes for social recognition of marriage in ones culture), you are "yoked" for your entire life?

One misstep, one mistake, decieved by the one pursuing you, ignorant yourself of proper mate selection, whatever, you are done? Your life (on earth as a partner in a healthy happy marriage) is done, ended, fini, never to be? Suppose you are some 15 (age of consent in most cultures) 16, 17 whatever yo, and you marry a complete loser, you are bound to them, must service them, must give them children etc. etc. no matter how undesireable the marriage is. And you must do this for the rest of your life......why?<hr /></blockquote>Why indeed! First off, my view on marriage is that there are three persons involved in my marriage...my wife, Christ, and me. I do not get all of the things I need out of this marriage from my wife. There is also Christ in this marriage, who never fails me.

Now, why did God create marriage? Well, many reasons. But the first was to create a relationship between a man and woman that reflects His relationship to us. Why? In order for us to have the life we deserve, the life where we get closer to Him, all in order to honor him.

How do we do that? Well, first off, we need to marry a believer. Do not be unequally yoked. That is a rescipe for disaster. Now, being married to a believer doesnt mean that they wont do the things that you listed above. Shoot, my wife is a believer and she committed adultery and ran off with the OM.

But what it does do is give your marriage the grounding it needs. It gives your marriage that third person that you can appeal to when everything between you and your mate are breaking down.

Now, I know of the things that you were referring to. Love, lust, friendship, etc between spouses. What about that? Well, I love my wife intensely. But let me ask you a question. What does the Harley's say about love, about the love bank? That ANYONE that makes depositis in our love bank can cause us to fall in love with them. That's how most of these affairs have happened.

So, if affairs, casual friendships, etc all have these things in common, how do those things make a marriage special? They dont. The affair isnt special, it's sick! But there is love there. Lust, friendship, etc. What makes it DIFFERENT from a marriage. Vows? Hardly.

A marriage is a bond put together by God. He wants no man to put it assunder.

He makes us one flesh. Now what makes a marriage one flesh? Well, Adam speaks in Genesis of "bone of bone, and flesh of flesh" when referring to his marriage to Eve. One flesh. But read it closely. He doesnt say "SHE" is bone of bone, he says "IT" is bone of bone!

Now what is 'IT?" It is the marriage, the relationship. We are supernaturally joined together. Sure, there is love, friendship, lust, etc. That is all the fruits of the relationship. But the marriage is based upon the relationship that was joined by God.

Now, if we are joined to a bum or to someone where the love or lust just isnt there, then what kind of marriage do we have? Well, not the one God intended. But, His will isnt to throw it in the trash. The bond is STILL there, until He breaks it.

This stuff is really simple, but it isnt easy. If we follow His guidelines for marriage (both spouses), then love, lust, friendship, etc ALWAYS follow. but we can never BASE a marriage on these things. That will only cause disaster in the end.

The marriage has to be based on somethign else. My marriage to me is based on the fact that I am no longer one, but two. If I want to end the marriage, I have to split the one back into two. And when you cut something living in half, both halves die!

Look at the statistics. MOST spouses who have divorced look back 5 years later and see that there is still a part of them with the old spouse. Why? Because they are one. Until God splits it.

I love my wife very much. She used to be my best friend. I used to lust her like no other woman I have ever met. Now, she has hurt me very badly. But nonetheless, she is still my wife. I am still in this relationship with her and Christ. And God has promised that He will reward me if I keep His standard. That is why I KNOW that my wife will be back to my friend and lover in the future.

If one person changes, the other HAS TO change.

Marriage is a relationship preidcated on more than love, lust, friendship, children, family, etc. It is a joining of two people in a supernatural relationship. A joining which we have no right to separate. Many Christians around the world die martyrs deaths for Christ. Is that unfair? Sure. We would God allow that? He has allowed freewill. But those martyrs will reap a reward greater than any that we will ever know.

A pouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:

If you acnpwledge it without humility then it doesn't count? So Christianity is predicated on being humble? What about rightousness (not a humble behavior). What about acceptance (not a humble behaviour). What about even acknowledgement in anger, fear, or despair...that is not a step towards God?<hr /></blockquote>What is righteousness or all of the others without humility? ARROGANCE that blinds you to beleive that you are incapable of doing anything wrong and PRIDE in your beleif that you are better than everybody else.

[ July 12, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

hey, you must have missed the part about no need for a religious dissertation, I already understand that part....my purpose (in that post) was about when it does not work, and the various ways one can become married. I get that you see hope and value in yours...but what if you did not? Is marriage a life sentence? Suppose one day after being married you found your wife had lied about things that would have led to your not marrying her if you had known them...she tricked you into marriage. What does MM do? Now same question suppose 1 year gone by, maybe 10, 20... what principles are at work MM. I specifically would like your opinion about being decieved into marriage (happens quite regularly btw). This all ties into freewill (we either have it or we don't). One response might be that we are always in the marriage God meant for us, but then that abridges freewill, so is not the answer (and an obvious copout anyways).

MM... spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded.

s...You cannot possibly say that (with proof), you can only hope that.

MM...Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around.

s...And maybe never, but why would one have the choice to spend their life like this taken away from them? We are empowered as human beings (by our creator) to assess and change our lives in every imaginable way....yet somehow we are not empowered to address something as critical to our well-being as who we choose to be in the most vulnerable of relationships with?

MM...Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed.

s...yippee, maybe one can wear a hair shirt while they are waiting too. There is no virtue in misery MM, no matter how obedient. This is no different than saying the way to heaven is paved by good deeds, it is not (as you know)...and I do think legalistic application (otherwise known as obedience) will go unnoticed, as it should.

MM...The other person in the relationship notices,

s...MM you absolutely cannot argue this way, you cannot just make a feel good statement and use it as proof. The other person may very well notice nothing, and continue to use and abuse their spouse...why, cause they are allowed to if a mindless application of obedience is applied to that marital circumstance. The eamples are all around you, even on these MB boards, of people married to users, who will never be a healthy marital partner. That falls under the lifetime question, your argument is nicely protected by simply writing these people off by saying so sorry your life was awful, but no you can't do anything about it, you will be rewarded in heaven though... MM one can offer that rationalization about any religious topic, it doesn't wash. We are either empowered by freewill to lead our lives in healthy manner, or we are not...I think we are.

MM...and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

s...So marriage is about being a sacrificial lamb for a spouse we never would have chosen had we known what was coming (for those whom this applies too). The idea we sublimate the marriage by pretending we are married to Him is questionable. God will meet our needs married or not. The issue is freewill, and are we empowered to assess and order our lives in all ways, or not. The trouble with imposing draconian rules on one party to a marriage is that it empowers dysfunctional people to seek out such mates, marry them, and reap the rewards of having such a mate, while doing nothing in return, or worse being neglectful, abusive, narcissistic, slothful, whatever. Your argument only works when you have two psychologically/emotionally healthy people who want to (and have the capacity too), meet each others needs...but then if that were true, they probably don't want to divorce anyways.

[ July 12, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

TMCM I have no idea what the point of your reply was. But I agree pride and arrogance are bad things. I do however think there is a wider set of human behaviours than arrogance, pride, and humility. I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so. I assume God has some means whereby this belief in each of us is actually present. An arrogant prideful attitude is probably less likely to make this leap of faith...but being humble is no gaurantee one will either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so.<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, SOME have also used this simple requirement as carte blanche to commit unspeakable attrocities. Tell me this then, are you free to commit murder, adultery, and theft if you know that in order to be saved you are only required to beleive your above statement? Isn't this a very similar requirement like the one that terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hetzbolla looks for in their members.

[ July 12, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so.<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, SOME have also used this simple requirement as carte blanche to commit unspeakable attrocities. Tell me this then, are you free to commit murder, adultery, and theft if you know that in order to be saved you are only required to beleive your above statement? Isn't this a very similar requirement like the one that terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hetzbolla looks for in their members.<hr /></blockquote>s..You used the word "know", so you will not be saved whether you do unspeakable things or not. But assuming you meant to use the word "believe", then yes you can do anything and be saved.

However, keep in mind that humans are quite capable of self deception. So thinking one believes in God, yet willfully disobeying probably means you don't really believe. The efficacy of our belief will be judged, hence our motivation to behave "now", even though we will fall short, such is the nature of freewill. In simplistic terms I think (for unknowable reasons), Christianity is a test of each humans ability to make a leap of faith, a culling process if you will. To the degree the ability to make that leap is related to our motivations (and resultant actions) we place ourselves at risk when we willfully disobey God's will.

Terrorists, molesters, thieves, adulterers and such that do so deliberately can be forgiven (obviously) but the more they choose such behaviour the greater the likelihood their belief will fall short. Even ignorance is no sheild, because God has promised all a fair choice (meaning understanding a choice exists). I am not sure what happens when say a moment before death a lifelong child molester repents and becomes a believer. It appears they will be saved, that the issue is acknowledgement, repentance, which seem to be a part of the leap of faith. That offends our sense of secular justice, but makes sense spiritually, because you are reborn, there is no need or benefit to punishment for previous transgressions. Such would imply coming to believe out of fear, I don't think one can make a leap of faith based on fear, but rather it is made on trust and hope.

[ July 12, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

SB,

Thanks for the continued discussion. Before I get into the meat of your arguments, let me say that I believe you are not seeing the full picture of what I am saying. I will go into more detail below. But suffice it to say, so far, I have mostly covered what God demands in marriage, what the person who lives up to his expectations can expect. You have made a lot of reference here to the one that doesnt live up to those expectations. So let's discuss them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />hey, you must have missed the part about no need for a religious dissertation, I already understand that part....my purpose (in that post) was about when it does not work, and the various ways one can become married.<hr /></blockquote>This is not dissimilar to enlisting in the Army. We all enter for many reasons. Go talk to a group of soldiers, and you will have many different reasons why they joined. Now, when they joined, they made a vow. And that they would live up to that vow until the contract was over with...and thus the relationship ends. Now, what if the Army life isnt what they expected? Can they just walk in and say "Hey, I didnt expect this...I'm outta here"? Of course not. In many things in life, we make the best possible decisions we can at the time. Sometimes we make stupid decisions, like joining the Army out of a lark or something. No matter how it happened, we gave our word. We entered into a "relationship" that only ends when that contract is through.

Now, can we get out of it early? Sure. But we will pay a penalty. Jail, loss of pay, social stigma, loss of security clearances, etc. That is a choice. Eventually, once the early penalties are paid for, we can get on with our lives. But in many ways, that choice to leave before the contract is over, will drag with us the rest of our lives. We wont be able to get jobs that require security clearances. We might have a federal record. And so on.

Marriage is the same way. We made a vow, a contract with God and our spouse. Even if our spouse breaks the contract, God has not. He has allowed us one way out of this contract...death. Physical or spiritual. I mean afterall, we did promise "until death do we part." Not until debt do we part...or until they stop making me happy do we part...or until they start ignoring me do we part. The only criteria for the ending of the contract is death. That is why this is a SERIOUS decision, and one that has life long consequences.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I get that you see hope and value in yours...but what if you did not? Is marriage a life sentence? Suppose one day after being married you found your wife had lied about things that would have led to your not marrying her if you had known them...she tricked you into marriage. What does MM do? Now same question suppose 1 year gone by, maybe 10, 20... what principles are at work MM. I specifically would like your opinion about being decieved into marriage (happens quite regularly btw). This all ties into freewill (we either have it or we don't). One response might be that we are always in the marriage God meant for us, but then that abridges freewill, so is not the answer (and an obvious copout anyways).<hr /></blockquote>Oh, it does not abridge freewill. Not at all. We made a choice. Now, in your example, that choice might have been made due to lies by our spouse. But remember, there isnt just the two of you in the relationship. One of the things in Scripture it talks about is staying in the marriage to win the person to Christ or back to Christ, due to your example. It is an evangelical opportunity.

God HATES divorce. He doesnt say that he hates some divorce, He hates ALL of it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM... spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded.

s...You cannot possibly say that (with proof), you can only hope that.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, I absolutely can! First off, these are promises of God. He is God, and by nature, He does not lie. So if He promises something, His promises are true. Now subjectively, there are believers out there who can testify that His promises are true.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around.

s...And maybe never, but why would one have the choice to spend their life like this taken away from them? We are empowered as human beings (by our creator) to assess and change our lives in every imaginable way....yet somehow we are not empowered to address something as critical to our well-being as who we choose to be in the most vulnerable of relationships with?<hr /></blockquote>Look, this life is not about us. It is about working out our relationship with God. At one time in history, this life was about us and God. And then Adam and Eve screwed things up. Now, we all have to work out our relationship with Him, in order to have that life again that they first have. The eternal life in the presence of God. So, just like the many reasons for joining the Army, there are many reasons why we are in the relationship we are and what God expects from us. Maybe it is to win our spouse back to Christ. Maybe it is to pass on a Christian background to our children. Maybe it is to bring a closer relationship to God in our lives. There have been people that it took being paralyzed for life until they woke up and saw where they were headed and repented.

Now, I know what you are going to say. What about freewill? well, if my 5 year old son is riding his bike in the street and I see a truck coming, I could just leave him to his choices. Afterall, he has chosen to ride in the street. But where is the love for him. Now, if I run out and jerk him off his bike at the last minite, and bruise him in the process, amd I being mean or denying him freewill? Of course not...I am saving his life.

When God does many things, we look at the pain and wonder what kind of God will allow this. Well, many times, it was that painful event that was the ONLY thing that took us out of the way of that "truck." Hell is forever, and very painful. God does not want that, and as a loving God, He will do everything He can to educate and pursuade us to save our lives.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed.

s...yippee, maybe one can wear a hair shirt while they are waiting too. There is no virtue in misery MM, no matter how obedient. This is no different than saying the way to heaven is paved by good deeds, it is not (as you know)...and I do think legalistic application (otherwise known as obedience) will go unnoticed, as it should.<hr /></blockquote>Ahhh...I do not speak of legalism. I speak of a relationship. If my relationship with Christ is right and I am where I should be with him, would I divorce my wife because she isnt meeting my needs? Of course not. God will NEVER tell someone to divorce. Divorce is only PERMITTED and only under certain circumstances. And if you go on, you will see that God permitted it due to the hardness of our hearts. So, a right relationship with God supposes us to act in a way that please Him. That isnt legalism. If we are walking with God, loving Him...then His laws will be kept. We dont keep His laws to have a relationship with Him...we have a relationship with Him and thus keep His laws (fruit of the Spirit).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...The other person in the relationship notices,

s...MM you absolutely cannot argue this way, you cannot just make a feel good statement and use it as proof. The other person may very well notice nothing, and continue to use and abuse their spouse...why, cause they are allowed to if a mindless application of obedience is applied to that marital circumstance. The eamples are all around you, even on these MB boards, of people married to users, who will never be a healthy marital partner. That falls under the lifetime question, your argument is nicely protected by simply writing these people off by saying so sorry your life was awful, but no you can't do anything about it, you will be rewarded in heaven though... MM one can offer that rationalization about any religious topic, it doesn't wash. We are either empowered by freewill to lead our lives in healthy manner, or we are not...I think we are.<hr /></blockquote>Again the freewill question. Of course, we may have a spouse that may not get it. Or they get it, but still do not follow. Our relationship with Christ isnt about our circumstances. Too often, being Americans, we believe we have a right to be happy, for everything to be there for us. A right to food, to health care. We have a right to be pleased by our spouse in a way that we want. And if someone denies us those rights, then we scream bloody murder.

but there are believers in other countries who are starving tonight...who are being persecuted. Their relationship with Christ is still to be the same. Listen to Him, follow Him, no matter the circumstances. If we do this, NO MATTER the circumstances, God will work it for our good (Romans 7 or 8, I believe). This is a promise by Him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

s...So marriage is about being a sacrificial lamb for a spouse we never would have chosen had we known what was coming (for those whom this applies too).<hr /></blockquote>Well, to an extent ...yes. Do you know that the Bible does not command wives to love their husbands? Respect, obey, etc...but not love. But guess what? Husbands are COMMANDED to love their wives, as Christ loves us. What kind of love is that? Sacrificial love! As I stated above, marriage is about establishing on Earth the relationship that we have with God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The idea we sublimate the marriage by pretending we are married to Him is questionable.<hr /></blockquote>Pretend? He is in the marriage. He put it together. Over and over again, it says in the Bible of how God's relationship in the marriage. The only marriage that even has a chance to meet its potential is the one that includes Christ in the relationship.

God will meet our needs married or not.[/quote]Oh, not necessarily. Read Hebrews 10. If a believer rebels against God, God will pull back His grace and allow us to reap the consequences. Obviously, we arent getting our needs met. Go read the passage in Romans (I dont have my Bible with me right now) that talks about the promise that God will make good everything to those that love him. Follow Him, and He will meet your needs. Chose your own way, and He will allow you to meet your own needs.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The issue is freewill, and are we empowered to assess and order our lives in all ways, or not.<hr /></blockquote>Get back to my post earlier where I talk about freewill, and about God's freewill. He need not give up His in order for us to have ours.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The trouble with imposing draconian rules on one party to a marriage is that it empowers dysfunctional people to seek out such mates, marry them, and reap the rewards of having such a mate, while doing nothing in return, or worse being neglectful, abusive, narcissistic, slothful, whatever. Your argument only works when you have two psychologically/emotionally healthy people who want to (and have the capacity too), meet each others needs...but then if that were true, they probably don't want to divorce anyways.
<hr /></blockquote>This is not true. The rules apply to both. Remember what I said, walk with Him and He will take care of you. Walk away from Him, and you will walk alone. Thus, the WS that doesnt repent, or the spouse that doesnt meet their spouses needs, well, they are in for a rough ride themselves. When will it happen to them? What will happen to them? Who knows? But it will happen. The first thing that will happen to everyone like this is that they wont get what they deserve, the blessings provided by Christ. So they will miss out in life on things that they will only find out later that they missed out on.

God created us to have a relationship with Him. If we chose not to have that relationship, to do it our own way, He will allow freewill and let you go. But as was stated above, the umbrella of His protection will be removed. His blessings will no longer flow. We will have to create our own happiness...and fight our own battles with Satan.

It is no different than a kid that will not live by the rules of my household. I love them, but if they wont obey, they certainly arent going to get dessert tonight. And if they are old enough, they certainly wont be living in the house anymore.

I habve a friend that has a daughter in college. She announced last month that she is going to move in with her boyfriend when she goes back in the fall. Obviously, this is behavior that my friend does not allow. But since she is an adult, she has freewill. But my friend isnt going to support it either. He notified her that if she was going to do this, then she would also have to pay for things...that the money was to stop from him.

Was her freewill denied? Nope. But her father's freewill also was that if she was to live an immoral lifestyle, he wasnt going to support it financially. Her freewill led to consequences. She now must support herself, to provide her own finances if she is to live with her boyfriend.

Our relationship to God, and our freewill (and His) is alot like this.

In His arms.

Coffeeman,

A short response to your post.

Read 1st Corinthians. It says three times that ALL things are lawful for the believer. That means that yes, we can sin and our salvation still remain. Sin is all the same..stealing, lying, murder.

But, Hebrews 10 lays out what happens to the believer if they sin. In short, God will allow the consequences of their behavior to come. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." That sentence speaks of believers.

In His arms.

[ July 12, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Here's what I wonder:

Is this thread, by this point, about learning Biblical principles... or is it about seeing how we all feel about what the Bible says regarding remarriage... or maybe it's about arguing about the Bible says... or perhaps about finding ways to continue the cycle of guilt and punishment that both the BS and WS already feel... or is it about convincing people that the Bible is the final say on all subjects, including adultery and remarriage? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My biggest beef with religion, and most especially Christianity (fundamentalists especially), is that so many within the 'system' push their beliefs down the throat of everyone - and God forbid someone believe differently.

I know that it's a free country, and this is a 'free' website and nobody has to read or write on any thread, and normally I enjoy a good debate... but my hackles really get up when I read things like:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement." <hr /></blockquote>Do you know how many wars (both literally and personally) are started because someone (a simple human) uses "righteous judgement" to determine right and wrong? Who are WE to judge? And the quote above clearly says that ******God******* judges the soul - not man.

As I've said before - I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus, that He died on the Cross for me, that He rose again. I believe because I do, not because someone tells me to, not because the Bible tells me to... just because I do. I have no desire to try to convince anyone to believe like I do, because it's personal. Yeah, I'd like it if everyone was nice, there was peace on earth, and all that good stuff... and one way I can achieve that in my little corner of the world is not to judge others (not easy, but it's a continuing process).

OK MM, think I am fairly clear on your position, will probably comment more later but here are some points, correct me as needed.

1. You believe all marriages are valid, there is no consideration of intent, ignorance, deceit, etc.

2. You believe you are "married" the instant you complete whatever social custom applies (that in itself is a little ambiguous, but whatever).

3. Once "married" it is for life, only exception being adultery, or a church sanctioned death declaration (which begs the issue then marriage is not an absolute, just not up to the individual in it, which puzzles me no end).

4. You believe God is all powerful, and can do anything He wants, but He won't lead one from a marriage chosen against His will (because we have freewill we can marry against God's will for us...true?). Therefore we can make a marital error, but we have no means to correct it, and cannot call on God to lead us out. We are trapped.

5. Allthough you agree we have freewill (and can thus err), any marriage we enter is the one we were supposed to enter.

6. You acknowledge that some have much better marriages than others. But if you are in a bad one, then it is a life sentence, you cannot seek out a healthier relationship but must be obedient to the premise divorce is not allowed, and you will be rewarded after you die for this obedience.

I assume you reject the notion that one may be civily married but not in a spiritual union, or that for a spiritual union to exist it must meet certain criteria or is not a oneflesh union, but simply cohabitation. I assume (from what you have posted) you also reject the notion someone can deliberately target another for marriage, knowing that if they can get them, they have them for life.

Sort of like signing up for the military and finding out you are to be a guinea pig for nuclear fallout tests (yes this did happen), but being obligated to comply because you signed a vow...rather than self-preservation trumping that vow and deserting.

Your army analogy was interesting, but doesn't work. Even the uniform code of military justice allows for disobedience and desertion if justified (for example, you cannot be ordered to certain death... which is why I do not believe marital doctrine can be interpreted as an absolute, or life sentence regardless of circumstances). There is no human analog for what you propose spiritually. Everything humans do is conditional, all vows, contracts, gaurantees etc. have limitations. There are sound philosophic principles why if you want to go there.

NB, can only speak for myself, but sense the same in MM, and others of similar ilk. We are not trying to make anyone do anything, we are simply exploring a complex issue as much for our own understanding as anyone elses....and if others benefit, great, if not, fine...there is no coercion involved cause no one has to read or participate.

You did say one thing, that you see no need to persuade others to your belief. If you are a Christian (and you said so) you are obligated to evangelize (in some sense). I don't think anyone disputes that, or has conflict with that tenet. That makes sense cause Christianity is a choice, one must make a proactive choice. That cannot happen if one is unaware, hence evangelism, you may be the tool chosen to "inform" someone of their choice...if you don't do that...what then?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortarman:
Coffeeman,

A short response to your post.

Read 1st Corinthians. It says three times that ALL things are lawful for the believer. That means that yes, we can sin and our salvation still remain. Sin is all the same..stealing, lying, murder.

But, Hebrews 10 lays out what happens to the believer if they sin. In short, God will allow the consequences of their behavior to come. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." That sentence speaks of believers.

In His arms.<hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry MM but I fail to grasp how one can be saved while at the same time falling into the hands of God.

I can grasp being saved by beleiving in Jesus Christ as the son of God, but to expect to be saved later by committing all sorts of unspeakable acts against fellow human beings without paying the price of damnation? I can see salvation being possible IF the latter came first and the former came second, for it would indicate true beleif with repentance and not just lip service.

[ July 12, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

I've been holding my tongue for quite some time. I've had it, I have flat out had it. Here's what I really think:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> A pouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe it will take my whole life????!!!!????

Call me selfish, call me an adulteress, call me a heathen, call me what you like, judge me how you like, but I REFUSE to sit by for my whole life waiting for my H to have a revelation and suddenly decide I am worthy of him treating me like his wife again.

As far as I know, we're only here once, and if my H won't wake up and choose to treat me as his wife again, I will divorce him, I want to find someone else to love and have kids with, and I want to live a happy Christian life with that other man and the kids we may get to have.

I don't think God wants me to live in misery waiting for a man who doesn't want me and can't find forgiveness in his heart to come back to me or to take me back as it were.

Besides, divorce is allowed for in the case of infidelity. Sure it was originally my infidelity, but my H's obsession with porn, and his unnaturally close friendship (it may be more) with two female friends sure could be chalked up as infidelity as well.

So I may burn in hell for remarrying, but I sure as heck am not going to sit and pine and pray for my H to come back to me for all of my life. Forget it. There have to be limits to the suffering we must endure.

It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
You did say one thing, that you see no need to persuade others to your belief. If you are a Christian (and you said so) you are obligated to evangelize (in some sense). I don't think anyone disputes that, or has conflict with that tenet. That makes sense cause Christianity is a choice, one must make a proactive choice. That cannot happen if one is unaware, hence evangelism, you may be the tool chosen to "inform" someone of their choice...if you don't do that...what then?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I suppose I missed the mark somewhat in my explanation on that one. However, I would disagree with my being "obligated" to evenagelize in the traditional sense.

I share, if it feels safe to do so, but will stop immediately if someone asks me not to discuss it with them. Also, if I feel that my beliefs are being mocked, or that to continue the conversation would bring negativity or ugliness, I stop.

I do believe that God brings people, or situations into our lives as a vehicle to discuss... perhaps even here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... but will not do "cold calls" about my beliefs.

Also, as I stated earlier in this thread, I am not saying that we, as a society, cannot judge wrong... clearly there are some things that are evil beyond explanation. But to judge someone who is truly trying to live a good redeemed life... I just think it's wrong.

Easy Jen, this is only a philosophical exercise. It is only natural that people tend to disagree but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are branding you. I personally don't beleive that you will forever carry the scarlet letter around your neck until the last day of your life, and neither should you. You are a good person that made terrible choices, but has repented, sought forgiveness from God and her H, and in my book, you are somebody I respect.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
So I may burn in hell for remarrying...<hr /></blockquote>Honey, I'll be there too, as I already remarried. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen, you don't need any of us to tell you anything -- you know your heart, God knows your heart, and it's between God and you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
So I may burn in hell for remarrying...<hr /></blockquote>If that's the case, you are going to have my company as well. I hope you can endure an eternity of lame jokes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />A spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with Jen. There is not way God wanted any of us to have to just put up with the abuse (physical, emotional, infidelity, etc.) of a bad marriage. Even if a person follows the bible closely here are allowances for divorce and remarriage.

To make a person feel like they are somehow sinning because they have to leave a bad marriage is WRONG. Are you going to tell me that if a man beats his wife, that the only way she can live by God’s principles is put up with it and hope some day her husband will suddenly realize that she was right and good and he was a scumbag for abusing her? It seldom happens. For the most part abusers just get worse with age.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.<hr /></blockquote>For the most part the arrant spouse will not notice the love and friendship we have with Christ. It’s a good, feel good philosophy but it sets people up for allowing themselves to be treated horribly.

Much of this discussion reminds me of the argument some use that a woman is not to dress in her husband’s clothing. So they say that a woman is not to wear pants or slacks. This is ridiculous. At the time it was written men did not wear pants or slacks either. They wore robes, women wore robes. So if they both wore robes does this mean that the woman was to go around naked to not dress like her husband? Nooooo this mean that a woman is not to be like a man… that she is not to take her husband’s place in family, society and sexually. She is not to BE a man. Today there are men’s versions of pants and women’s versions. Today we define men’s and women’s roles differently then they were defined in biblical times… so it is applied to our current social structure.

When the bible was written, the average human lived to only 22 years of age. If they married at the normal 13 –14 years of age they had only 8-10 years of marriage ahead of them. It’s a lot easier to be married for life when life is so short. At the turn of the 20th century, the average life span for a man was 45 and for a woman was 47. Again it was much easier to be married for life at that time. Today we the average man lives to be about 75 and the average women to be 80. So if a couple marries at 20, they easily can look at having a 55-year marriage. That is a long time and many things can happen in that time.

Do you really think that the God intended for a person to marry at 20 and live in a abusive marriage until she was 80 years old? Do you really think that was the intent? I hardly think so. Religion has to be applied with some common sense.

well jen, very clearly stated. MM this is the real issue, marriage takes two people on the same page, there are lots of things that can interfere with that working right. Freewill means we only have control over our end of things, and that means we are empowered to make choices (much as you described God doing with his freewill) based on others freewill choices. Making marriage an absolute, abrogates that principle. You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved. And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices... I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us). You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.). Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.

Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave. I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice. Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what. The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them? It should not be a choice made lightly (divorce or marriage), but they are choices.

[ July 12, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

There are a couple of good posts here, and I will respond to them shortly. But I wanted to respond to Jen first.

Jen,
My posts were not meant to hurt you. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH! I understand the pain and the wanting a life free of this mess. Let me get to your posts and explain what I have been talking about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've been holding my tongue for quite some time. I've had it, I have flat out had it. Here's what I really think:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />A spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe it will take my whole life????!!!!??? Call me selfish, call me an adulteress, call me a heathen, call me what you like, judge me how you like, but I REFUSE to sit by for my whole life waiting for my H to have a revelation and suddenly decide I am worthy of him treating me like his wife again.<hr /></blockquote>Jen, please settle down. I am not calling you anything. I am simply explaining what I have learned about God's word and what He wants for us. My concern right now after reading this is that you may be missing out on healing, and maybe even the healing of your husband becoming the husband he should, precisely because you refuse to do things that God has asked you to do. It may be about your will versus God's will. About whether or not you trust Him. Remember the history in the Bible where a man was told to sacrifice his son. When he went to do it, God stopped him. He didnt refuse God's will. He said "Your will be done, even if that is the loss of my son." And because of his faith, his son was spared and his relationship with God grew.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As far as I know, we're only here once, and if my H won't wake up and choose to treat me as his wife again, I will divorce him, I want to find someone else to love and have kids with, and I want to live a happy Christian life with that other man and the kids we may get to have.<hr /></blockquote>These are precisely the reasons my wife got into an adulterous relationship, and wanted to leave the marriage. We were having trouble, and I wasnt being the husband she deserved. But she committed adultery, no matter what her pain or reasons for doing it. And the Bible spells out what happens when we do things on our own, outside of the will of God. You say you will divorce him and find your owjn happiness. God says you will only find happiness through him. Who is right? You both cant be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't think God wants me to live in misery waiting for a man who doesn't want me and can't find forgiveness in his heart to come back to me or to take me back as it were.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, you are correct. He does not want you to have to live this way. And maybe the way things are right now are the consequences that God said would happen if someone strays from their marriage. That is for you to find out through prayer and Bible study. But, your husband should not be treating you this way. And he will be dealt with by Christ, if he is a believer. You have to concentrate on YOUR relationship with Christ. You willing to sacrifice or strain your relationship with Christ in order to find some sort of happiness with another man? Come on, you know that there is no man on this Earth that can match the love of Christ. Dont accept second best, Jen.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Besides, divorce is allowed for in the case of infidelity. Sure it was originally my infidelity, but my H's obsession with porn, and his unnaturally close friendship (it may be more) with two female friends sure could be chalked up as infidelity as well.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, infidelity is a reason for divorce. But not for the WS. A spouse cannot go out and commit adultery so they can divorce. The choice for a biblical divorce is in the hands of the BS. Yes, porn is a form of adultery, of which I am guilty (one of the problems my wife was having with me before the A). And you may have grounds. So do as 1st Corinthians 7 says and take him before the church. Tell your pastor that he isnt meeting your needs, not being an adequate husband. Tell him that he continues with porn. The church will then confront your husband. Then either he will either repent, or he will continue on the path he is on. If he continues, then the church will declare him spirituall dead...and you are free to divorce and remarry (only to another believer).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So I may burn in hell for remarrying, but I sure as heck am not going to sit and pine and pray for my H to come back to me for all of my life. Forget it. There have to be limits to the suffering we must endure.<hr /></blockquote>First off, if you are a believer, you are not going to burn in hell. Christ has paid the price of your sins. Hell is not in your future. But hell on Earth could be. You do not have to pray for all of your life for your husband to come back. When reading the Bible, it says marital unfaithfulness. But the original translation speaks of immoral behavior. That includes (as spelled out later in Scripture) drunkeness, a husband that wont provide for his family, etc. Desertion is one of them. But the point is that if you have grounds for a divorce, if your husband continues to refuse to be the husband he is supposed to be...then take him before the church. If he still wont obey, then he is in rebellion to God and then he is put out of the church and treated as if he is a sinner or tax gatherer. Spiritually dead. And then you are legally and morally able to divorce. Jen, there is a way to get your husband back or divorce. You do not have to put up with this throughout your life. But please please...do not due it Jen Brown's way. Do it God's way, and you will not regret it. Like I said, my wife was lonely and upset. But she never took me before the church. She did it her way. And we will live with the consequences of that way for the rest of our lives.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?<hr /></blockquote>Actually, this statement hurts, Jen. You think this is easy. Go back to last October and Novemebr to my threads, when I thought my marriage was over and was mad at God for me having to go through all of this pain, when it was her that was disobeying. And then I posted exactly what I am telling you here. I let me mind and what I know aboutthe Lord override my emotions. Whether or not my wife is with me or not, I would still pursue His will. Look back right before she came home seeking reconciliation. I had already started the process at the church to have her confronted. I was done with the marriage and wanted out. But I was going to do it God's way, not MM's way. A week later, God flipped things upside down and brought my wife home.

I believe in oart that she came home due to my obedience and my trying to do things, even divorce, God's way. I think part of that was a test for me. That I neded to have faith that if I did it His way, that it would all work out. And it did.

Jen, I am sensing (and I apologize if I am wrong) that this may still be a faith test for you. That God has still not allowed your husband to move forward because he is still trying to get you to let go and let Him take control. You have to get to the point where you say "Your will, God...no matter what."

I dont say these things because it is easy. God's way sometimes is exactly opposite of human nature. It isnt easy...but this is all very simple. If your husband wont be the husband that God demands, take him before the church. Have the church deal with him, IAW 1st Corinthians 7. If he doesnt repent, then you will be free to divorce and remarry.

Any other way, Jen...you invite disaster because you will be doing it Jen's way.

I hope that I have not hurt you and I am praying for peace in your life. Sometimes the truth hurts. I am sorry if you are hurting. I am not sorry for the truth.

Please keep talking here. There IS a way for you to be happy again. It is all outlined in His word.

In His arms.

[ July 12, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

SB,

Again, thanks for the continued to discussion. Everyone here is giving me things that I need to think, pray and study over.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM this is the real issue, marriage takes two people on the same page, there are lots of things that can interfere with that working right. Freewill means we only have control over our end of things, and that means we are empowered to make choices (much as you described God doing with his freewill) based on others freewill choices.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with this wholeheartedly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Making marriage an absolute, abrogates that principle.<hr /></blockquote>No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen. Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be. So the object of this is the church must subject its will to the Will of God. Christ is there and able, through the church, to render judgments.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...<hr /></blockquote>Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not. He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder. We can do it his way...or let our actions have consequences. The church doesnt decide who you sleep with, although I know of some churches that will not marry an unbeliever to a believer. But your choice in mate is yours. Now if you are a believer, God does say dont marry an unbeliever. If you do, your actions will have consequences (usually the unbeliever pulls the believer away from their relationship with God).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).<hr /></blockquote>There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them. Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them. My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM. God's way is always right for us. Our way is too often the wrong way and only brings pain. You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).<hr /></blockquote>What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog. There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.<hr /></blockquote>This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there. The problem with this approach is that it is gross disrtespect of God. I'll do what I want and God just has to stand by and accept it. No He doesnt.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.<hr /></blockquote>The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins. If we chose not to accept or live by that covenant, then the penalty is death (hell).

Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured. And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.<hr /></blockquote>Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.<hr /></blockquote>God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?<hr /></blockquote>Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing. When you marry, He joins you together. If you marry an unbeliever against His will, He still joins you together. That is why He warns against doing so. Because now you are bound to someone for life that does not know Jesus.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It should not be a choice made lightly (divorce or marriage), but they are choices.<hr /></blockquote>Choices, yes. But when we chose to do so outside His will, in a way not prescribed by Him...consequences will happen. And if we want to do it our way, He will let us. And He will let us reap what we sow.

In His arms.

WOW!! What a thread!

Sheryl.....my dear, dear sister Sheryl. Please do not be offended. I get the distinct impression that you are offended by the suggestion that you should be evangelizing, if you are a born-again christian. But that you do not want to. That that would be "pushing" yourself on someone else's beliefs, and you do not believe you should do that?

Unfortunately, it is true. We ARE to be evangelizing any and every chance we get! Why? Cuase - to use MM's example of the little boy riding his bike in the street - the world is in danger of death, condemnation and hell and don't know it unless we tell them!

Now, some christians are better at this than others, some have a real "heart" for it, talent, leading by God, call it what you will. I know I do not have the gift of Evangelizing. However, I sometimes see people, or know people I work with, and think, "I should tell them about Christ. They should have something to help them, they are going through life without knowledge that would make a lot of things easier...." But I don't always do it. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe the reasons you outlined. But we are commanded to do it, by Jesus Himself, so we should be doing it, even if they are offended. Just like the little boy, there are horrible consequences awaiting them, and we can be held accountable, if they never hear, and WE were the only ones who could have told them. We should do it often. Even if it hurts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sufdb, I swear, I think you ARE SNL, but...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Oh, well......I'll assume I'm wrong....for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's the thing about what you are asking, S. IF (BIG "if" - I know), IF you have sought God before M'ing, have prayed about your mate, etc. and truly believe the one you have M'd IS God's mate for you.....then you have to trust all the tenets that MM has outlined are also true! Meaning: HE (the Lord), will convict your spouse of their bad behavior.....that HE will have them "notice" if you follow Him, and they do not....that HE KNOWS what you are suffering, and HE will bring them to repentance.....IF you are being obedient to Him. Yes, I KNOW you do not believe this, as you stated that to MM, but it is a Biblical principle, and as with ALL God's principles, IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

Now, does this mean it's going to happen like -POOF!! - next day, next week? Whenever we blink twice? Nope, no guarantee of WHEN. Remember, God's timing is not OUR timing! But here's another biblical truth: WHEN we are "One-flesh" joined in M to another, the closer we get to God, the closer they get, too! Can't help but be true, if we are One-flesh.

You also said, "So a M is being a sacrificial lamb...."
Truth is: Our entire life is a sacrifice to HIM!!!! HE OWNS US!! He bought us!!! Paid with HIS blood. HE CAN GIVE US WHATEVER HE WANTS, OR NOT. His choice.

Praises to Him that he is Merciful and Loving, and gives us WAAAAY more than we deserve!!! We deserve death..........He gives us eternal life. We deserve punishment and separation from Him for our sins, since He can't look on sin (ALL have sinned), He gives us restoration and fellowship with Him, and in fact, DESIRES ABOVE ALL ELSE that we fellowship with Him!

What an awesome God!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You believe you are "married" the instant you complete whatever social custom applies (that in itself is a little ambiguous, but whatever).<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm, not quite.

It isn't the "social custom" that creates a M. It is the VOW we take, both of us, in the presence of God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm sorry MM but I fail to grasp how one can be saved while at the same time falling into the hands of God.<hr /></blockquote>I think the point here is that although one can be saved, one can pull so far away from God as to be totally living outside God's tenets, and therefore in major DANGER of God's wrath and punishment. This punishment of God is meant to bring a beleiver back into the fold. Much like the Prodigal Son, much like the parable of the Lost Sheep. My own DH fits this category.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?<hr /></blockquote>Jen,
I am in total agreement with everything MM writes............OK, 99% of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
My own M is "dissolved" - according to the civil courts, and my H is living in the "far country" - sleeps in another woman's bed every night........the whole nine.
Do I believe we are "Divorced" in God's eyes? No.
Why? B/c H initiated Div proceedings, against God's principles...........HE left, HE filed for Div., HE committed adultery, HE refuses to consider what God would have him do.

I don't think it has anything to do with what is going on around us, it's really a matter of obedience. I think that's what MM is saying to you. Do you want to obey Christ and do this HIS WAY?

I don't believe anyone is saying that you HAVE to say in this relationship with this person, if you believe God wants you out of it. See? That's MM's point! IF you have repented of your sins of leaving the M, and have returned due to obedience to God, and then you believe you have "biblical grounds" and have followed the biblical way of divorcing your erring spouse (having him declared spiritually dead, et. al), then you are FREE to move on!

This is all very interesting stuff. I feel I'm growing and learning with each post! Thanks, all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by new_beginning:Here's what I wonder:

Is this thread, by this point, about learning Biblical principles... or is it about seeing how we all feel about what the Bible says regarding remarriage... or maybe it's about arguing about the Bible says... or perhaps about finding ways to continue the cycle of guilt and punishment that both the BS and WS already feel... or is it about convincing people that the Bible is the final say on all subjects, including adultery and remarriage? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I think that the point is to discuss what we think the Bible says, which *IS* the final say for a Christian. Its been a very productive thread.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My biggest beef with religion, and most especially Christianity (fundamentalists especially), is that so many within the 'system' push their beliefs down the throat of everyone - and God forbid someone believe differently. <hr /></blockquote>What does this have to do with this discussion? I often hear this complaint, but never see any evidence of it so I don't know the relevence of this remark. Are you therefore "pushing your beliefs" on us when you state your opinions?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ML: previously wrote: A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement." <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you know how many wars (both literally and personally) are started because someone (a simple human) uses "righteous judgement" to determine right and wrong? Who are WE to judge? And the quote above clearly says that ******God******* judges the soul - not man. <hr /></blockquote>I dare say that most wars HAVE started because cruel despots could not judge right from wrong. I will tell you who *we are* to judge. We are rationally thinking, sane adults who are COMMANDED to judge right from wrong. God judges the soul, we judge the act. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong and I seriously wonder if anyone should be walking free who claims not to be able to judge right from wrong.

[ July 12, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Hi Lupolady,

You are so dear! And yes, I do have some thoughts no what you've written:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Unfortunately, it is true. We ARE to be evangelizing any and every chance we get! Why? Cuase - to use MM's example of the little boy riding his bike in the street - the world is in danger of death, condemnation and hell and don't know it unless we tell them!<hr /></blockquote>Well... I guess I think that most people *do* know about the danger, but choose another path. I don't feel it's my job to steer them down (or up) my path.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now, some christians are better at this than others, some have a real "heart" for it, talent, leading by God, call it what you will. I know I do not have the gift of Evangelizing. However, I sometimes see people, or know people I work with, and think, "I should tell them about Christ. They should have something to help them, they are going through life without knowledge that would make a lot of things easier...." But I don't always do it. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe the reasons you outlined. But we are commanded to do it, by Jesus Himself, so we should be doing it, even if they are offended. Just like the little boy, there are horrible consequences awaiting them, and we can be held accountable, if they never hear, and WE were the only ones who could have told them. We should do it often. Even if it hurts!
<hr /></blockquote>While I will agree that some have this gift, I will then suggest that they are probably the one's who should be doing the telling. I'm not saying that I can't say when God has blessed me, because believe me, I do... but what I am saying is that my gift is absolutely NOT evangelism. And, I simply do not feel led to do it in the way that most churches preach about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
I think that the point is to discuss what we think the Bible says, which *IS* the final say for a Christian. Its been a very productive thread. <hr /></blockquote>Dear MelodyLane,

This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above).

Now I know we've talked about "legalism" vs. "literalism" before... but as you can see, for me, it doesn't matter all that much which "ism" we use, as I have a problem believing the Bible hasn't been corrupted by man.

I do NOT intend to offend you. I do not wish to insult you either. This is simply how I believe.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What does this have to do with this discussion? I often hear this complaint, but never see any evidence of it so I don't know the relevence of this remark. Are you therefore "pushing your beliefs" on us when you state your opinions? <hr /></blockquote>I feel that some on this thread are saying that it's "my way or the highway" using the Bible to support their belief that a second or subsequent marriage is wrong in the eyes of God - period.

As far as evidence: I do not want to point fingers or call anyone out at all -- and I certainly don't expect everyone (or anyone, for that matter) to come skipping along my garden path -- this is what *I* believe, and it's not for everyone. I'm just adding my two cents about what I believe.

[ July 12, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above). <hr /></blockquote>Yes, you are a Christian, however, you have to realize that many of us have spent years studying the Bible and do believe it's true so you bet we will disagree on that point. As far as being "literal," the literal parts should be taken literally, the symbolic parts symbolically, just as any other book. It should be taken in the spirit meant by the author. You are perfectly free to reject the Bible and rely, instead, on your own understanding, but others choose not to do so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel that some on this thread are saying that it's "my way or the highway" using the Bible to support their belief that a second or subsequent marriage is wrong in the eyes of God - period. <hr /></blockquote>No, I think rather that I see many people trying to figure out what GOD says. I don't see anyone saying "*my* way or the highway." There might be a disagreement about what God's intent is, but both sides cannot be right, hence a great discussion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />this is what *I* believe, and it's not for everyone. I'm just adding my two cents about what I believe.<hr /></blockquote>And you have every right to believe what you choose. That right cuts both ways, though. Christians also have the right to discuss and try to determine what God believes via his word in the Bible.

[ July 12, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by new_beginning:
This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above).

[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>new beginning,
I very much agree with what you wrote. I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life. I do however question the role of religion. No one religion has ever met with my beliefs about Christ. I do not take the Bible literally, nor do I accept it as the word of God.

I do not believe God would want me to be in a bad marriage. Nor do I believe God would condem me for remarrying. The Catholic Church will grant you an annullment if you meet certain conditions, so even a large established religion acceptst that not all marriages were meant to be, even in the eyes of God. An annulment is no different in my eyes than a divorce, just harder to acheive.

Jen, if you can look yourself in the mirror every morning, and know that you have done your best to preserve your marriage, I believe you have done no wrong. If your marriage ultimately fails, I do not believe God would wish that you do not remarry, quite the contrary, I believe that if you find another man who brings joy to your life, and who will lift you up spiritually, God would want you to share your life with him.

Michael

ok, for NB a brief detour from the main focus of this thread.

I am not going to be argumentative, but it will feel like it, so if you find this distressing ignore it and I will not pursue it.

First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.

By calling yourself a Christian, you are saying you believe the New Testament...if you actually do not, then what do you believe sheryl? How do you even know Jesus existed if the Bible is not to be trusted (ie is corrupted). What is your source of authority for your belief system? A difference in interpretation is one thing, and is inevitable....but saying one will just pick and choose willy nilly, using as a basis one "beleives" the Bible is corrupted is breathtakingly arrogant. (not that you are arrogant sheryl, but such a position is).

First, if you beleive the Bible to be corrupted you must provide some kind of rationale, with proof, many have tried to do just that, and failed. In fact, the Bible has been subjected to more heuristic analysis than any other work of man, and has an internal consistentcy orders of magnitude greater than any other historical record, making it an unexplainable (some would say divine) anomaly. It is either true, or nothing is true, in which case being a Christian or a Heathan, or whatever, is all the same, since we have no basis for choice....well unless you have been addressed by some burning bushes lately.

If your position is that you sense and believe some kind of God explanation for our existence, as opposed to random physical events.. that is a legitimate conclusion upon reflecting why you exist. Calling oneself a Christian is more specific, it assumes you beleive in a God centric universe, but further that you believe the nature of that God to be as Christians describe Him. I personally think one can prove God exists (using logic and the scientific method, no theology needed), have had some long lasting um.."discussions" about this (often with atheists, who in general are poor debaters and usually go away mad when you disassemble their arguments), and read other "proofs" as well... so I am not saying you have to accept the Bible to believe in God. What is confusing is why people want to use the label Christian, but then say they don't believe in Christian theology, or they only believe in what suits them (in other words offer no rationale for the picking and choosing). Christian is just a word, you could say you are a rumpledinker and be just as saved etc, if your rumpledinker beliefs are congruent with Christian theology. But likewise one can say they are a Christian, but are not cause they reject Christian theology. The only purpose of labels is to facillitate communication, so we are all on the same page. Makes no sense to call oneself a democrat if you are a republican, or a girl if you are a boy, or a chocaholic if you hate chocalate, or a ...well you get the picture. It confuses people, leads to conflict, and wasted efforts trying to clarify what one assumed was true by a label, also breeds distrust, etc.

In this case Christian theology is clear (and makes sense) evangelism, or witnessing is part of the deal...so naturally anytime you enter a discussion that includes this concept, people would expect it a given you understand and concur...because you claim the label Christian. And so forth and so on with the rest of Christian theology. Now how one interprets evangelism is another story, how much and what kind should a given individual do is also subject to individual variation, but the principle is not open to debate, it is too clear.

Yes, it is a free country, and one can call themself whatever they want and believe whatever they want. What I don't understand is the purpose in calling oneself Christian, if one does not believe the source of our information for defining that label is correct. True, in the final analysis, believeing the Bible is the Word of God is a leap of faith. But that is what is asked of us, apparently you find yourself unable to make that leap, I am curious (if it is not too distressing for you) as to why.

ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael

[ July 12, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Hi again, and thank you both to ML and Michelle for responding to my thoughts.

I rarely post anymore, and choose only truly meaningful (to me) subjects to pour my heart out on... and this subject, because I am in a second marriage, is one of them.

However, upon reflection, I realize that I cannot help but offend when talking about religion, because I am *so* not in the norm of Christainity ... and although I belong to the Episcopal church, I am not very religious. I used to be though, and I have studied the Bible extensively - and used to be very proud that I could refute any door-knocker that darkened my doorstep. Anymore, I don't care to do that... I'd rather work on my walk with God, try to be a good person, and spread love, whenever possible. Call me new-agey... some have... but these are my beliefs.

I was just out driving with my son who is learning to drive (now *that's* close to God!) and I realized that I can no longer contribute anything meaningful to this conversation.

I've said my peace, and hopefully Jen can make her own decisions based on her personal beliefs. In fact, she titled her beliefs, didn't she? She said that remarriage after divorce is not adultery or sin in her subject line. And although it is a fascinating discussion, I am concerned about it becomming a personal attack on beliefs.

Oh, and PS to sudfb (hope I got the name right, my memory, ah, it fails me at this age <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )... not offended at all, and you make some good points. Hopefully I made myself clear above, and perhaps we will discuss this another time. For now, I think it's best for me to bow out.

[ July 12, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

Lupo et al, my use of the phrase sacrificial lamb was ill-advised. I certainly did not mean anything religious by it, but as a secular phrase meaning a sacrifice without meaning or benefit to the sacrificee. I withdraw that phrase and replace the point with marriage should not be understood as a condition that only benefits one party. It should be a mutually nurturing, safe, healthy, joyous place....as God said it should be. God does not (far as I know) say marriage should be a miserable, one-sided, hurtful place you just endure for a lifetime and get rewarded in heaven for you obedience. He gives far too many examples of how marriage should be for me not to think that means we are to assess our marital circumstance and empowered to act. Marriage is absolutely meaningless without the possibility of divorce. Without the possiblility one can lose the marriage (their spouse leave) there is no incentive, or consequence to alter behaviour. Such is the nature of human beings.

[ July 12, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Not all Christians believe in prostelitizing, thank goodness. We lived in the midst of an Amish community for two years, and I heard the word "God" from an Amish person I believe one time, and never heard the name "Jesus." They just lived their religion, rather than feeling the need to beat you over the head with it. On the other hand, at 4-H (a state sponsored organization) dinners, there were not only prayers, but prayers ending with "In Jesus' name," in clear violation of the separation of church and state, not to mention quite likely offensive to every non-Christian present.

BTW, from what I have read, the main reason that the average lifespan has increased so much is the reduction in mortality in infancy and childhood. Once people reached their twenties, people were almost as likely to live to a ripe old age as they are now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael<hr /></blockquote>Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God. By strict definition, belief in the new Testament, no I am not a Christian.
Michael

[ July 12, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

I must take issue with sufdb here:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.
<hr /></blockquote>My dear friend, you are offending Jews and Muslims here by displaying your ignorance of their religions, and not even honoring your own religion, (much less making a convincing argument), by arguing its validity vs. these other religions when you have a very tenuous grasp of these.
I would suggest one of two options; either bow out of a discussion you are not prepared to make, or take the time (and show the respect) of learning about what you speak.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael<hr /></blockquote>Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God.
Michael<hr /></blockquote>No, you said you believe in Christ:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life.<hr /></blockquote>Are you saying that you believe in Him but do not follow him?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael<hr /></blockquote>Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God.
Michael<hr /></blockquote>No, you said you believe in Christ:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life.<hr /></blockquote>Are you saying that you believe in Him but do not follow him?<hr /></blockquote>I do believe in Christ. Not in the way most people do, but I do believe. By follow him, do I do what I belive Christ would want me to do, do I live my life the way I believe Christ would want me to live my life? Yes.

Do I live my life, or "follow him" by a preset way of thinking based on a set of "rules" (my word), no, I do not. Belief in Christ, and/or belief in God, as someone said earlier, is a leap of faith. The leap of faith of the Jews led them in one direction, the Muslims in another. My leap leads me down a different path. I don't think that makes me wrong, nor do I think it makes me right. That does not mean I disrespect your beliefs, though I do not agree with them.

Michael

[ July 12, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

That is true nellie, lifespans need to be adjusted for infant mortality. But other other non biologic reasons (such as sanitation, nutrition), not to mention better medical intervention also apply. So lifespan has increased substantially over the last 5000 years due to benefits in these areas. I am not sure but I think average "adult" lifespans (in a functional sense) in Biblical times was about 50 (but do not quote me).

Whether this fact is reflected in the marital doctrine we are discussing, I don't know. But it does make some sense. The first 1/2 of life (say 20-50) you are essentially raising and establishing your lineage (ie children), this is an a major motivator (still is) in remaining in unhealthy marriages. From 50-80 you essentially have another life, albeit subject to some ageing, and greater mortality rates...but even in the 50's a substantial number of women are starting/continuing families (having children). So there is a psychological pressure to not want to live this "additional" lifespan in a conflictual unhappy (and often distant therefore) relationship, just to get the T-shirt (see I was married 50 years). In part this sort of self-actualization component is also an outcome of not only longevity, but also greater social opportunity, more people have the money, and society offers women more options if they choose to divorce. This shift in opportunities for women is a primary factor in our divorce rate. Women no longer have to remain in a chattle condition, and in ever increasing numbers...they don't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />By follow him, do I do what I belive Christ would want me to do, do I live my life the way I believe Christ would want me to live my life? Yes. <hr /></blockquote>Ok, so you do follow Christ' rules.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do I live my life, or "follow him" by a preset way of thinking based on a set of "rules" (my word), no, I do not.

Michael<hr /></blockquote>And now you take back what you just said and contradict yourself like you did in your previous post. hmmmmm

I just posted your exact statements and they are in direct contradiction of each other. You say you live the way Christ would want you to and then say you DON'T live according to his rules. That makes no sense. Just like you say that you believe in Christ but you are not a Christian. I don't understand.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:
I must take issue with sufdb here:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.
<hr /></blockquote>My dear friend, you are offending Jews and Muslims here by displaying your ignorance of their religions, and not even honoring your own religion, (much less making a convincing argument), by arguing its validity vs. these other religions when you have a very tenuous grasp of these.
I would suggest one of two options; either bow out of a discussion you are not prepared to make, or take the time (and show the respect) of learning about what you speak.<hr /></blockquote>??? You lost me spacecase, the post was not about Jews or Muslims, just a passing mention to the main issue which was what is a Christian. Since I do not intend to debate the fine points of Judaism of Islam vs Christianity (although I could, but only by referring to reference material I have at hand, I do not claim academic credentials), there is nothing to bow out of <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck I didn't post enough to offend anyone, are you a spokesman for PC? (that was a joke by the way). I have no need or desire to offend anyone, but I don't worry too much about PC either. If one wants to enter a religious debate one had best wear their best armour, it is a rough ride. been there done that, seen and been the butt of Christian bashing many a time myself, knocked all the offensive reactions right out of me after awhile, got tired of whining about being mistreated, and just bashed some more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Fact is religion debate is bare knuckle sport at it's best, and street fighting most of the time, best to just let offense slide right off ones back and stick to arguments. I admit the wild goose comment was not in the greatest taste...but it made my point succinctly and was not that awful, really is an acceptable imagery if one wants to convey they think (theologically) mohammed was a fake, and I do, and it is ok to say so.

Btw how can ignorance of someones religion be offensive anyways? Nor did I question their validity, Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all on the same page spacecase, the say God, the same Bible (at least the old testament parts). They (the Jews who don't think the messiah has come, and the Muslims who don't believe Jesus was the messiah either) are just confused about God's plan for us.

Did I mess up with identifying Orthodox Jews as not believeing in the new testament, dang, I was afraid of that, it is hard to keep all the religious factions straight..even the Christian sects confuse me sometimes, maybe someone will publish a simple laminated cheat sheet, I would pay good money for such an aid.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
I just posted your exact statements and they are in direct contradiction of each other. You say you live the way Christ would want you to and then say you DON'T live according to his rules. That makes no sense. Just like you say that you believe in Christ but you are not a Christian. I don't understand.<hr /></blockquote>s...I wonder if this falls under the category of ask and you shall be given.

Michael (and thx melody for following this up) you have demonstrated exactly my point. You believe in Christ, but you don't believe in Christ, this creates confusion when one is trying to understand where you are coming from. Why not just say you believe in God, and that you try to live your life in a way you think He wants you too. Saying you believe in Christ implies a much more delinieated belief, Christ said very clearly how He wants us to live (yes, subject to interpretation conflicts), if you don't believe that, it is hard to understand what you believe in Christ means. So what does it mean anyways?

ok, just saw the followup to melody. Then is it fair to say you are not a Christian, but that you believe someone like Christ existed, and draw certain parts (but not all) of your beliefs from some of His teachings?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
[qb]
Saying you believe in Christ implies a much more delinieated belief, Christ said very clearly how He wants us to live (yes, subject to interpretation conflicts), if you don't believe that, it is hard to understand what you believe in Christ means. So what does it mean anyways?<hr /></blockquote>So you admit there are conflicts in interpretation. Why am I wrong if I have not yet found a religion which fits with my intepretation? To answer your question though, I have always understood that believing in Christ means believing he was the son of God.
Michael

[ July 12, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

you didn't say you had interpretation issues. When one does, you are generally on the same page, and there has to be some recognizable (using rules of logic) basis for an interpretation conflict. But anyways this is all very difficult without specifics, the fact is I don't know what you believe. However, believeing Jesus was the son of God is a long ways down the I am a Christian path, the other half is believeing the Bible is the word of God. The rest is pretty much interpretation issues (subject to the logic caveat above, you cannot just invent a new interpretation out of the blue, unsupported by any real argument).

I'm sorry to jump back in here, but I realized I'd called Michael "Michelle" by mistake, and by the time I could get back on to the internet a dozen messages had been posted... seemed kind of silly to just change my mistake at that point.

So Michael, thank you for understanding my views... and I will honestly (hopefully gracefully this time) let you all get back to your discussion.

Me oh my, you've been a busy bunch of posters haven't you all?? I went to a wedding and you managed to post 2 additional pages since I left! All very interesting I must add.

I was able to attend a wedding without my H, and stay tear free. Now there's an accomplishment if I dare say so!

I still want, more than anything, to spend the rest of my life with the man I vowed to spend the rest of my life with. But if if I do everything in my power to make it clear to him that I want to be with him, and want to work on our marriage with him, and my H can't find it in his heart to try to forgive me and let me be his wife again, my goal will be to find a nice Christian man to marry and have a family with. As one wise person noted, I stated my opinion in the subject line: I don't think divorce or remarriage is a sin or adultery.

Being at a wedding today gave me a chance to remember so many happy memories, and recall how happy my H and I really once were when we were together. I am going to keep on praying for restoration of my marriage until the day that my H tells me he wants otherwise, or until I've waited as long as I can possibly wait for him to decide, whichever comes first.

It's so strange, I expected to be so sad after attending a wedding, but somehow it really encouraged me, because it reminded me of how powerful love can be, how it can unite two people and help them to take on the world together. I want that again, I just pray that my H will want that too. I now know that it not only takes love but hard work, graciousness and protection too.

This thread may have had me a bit upset earlier on, but in reality, it's helped me to confirm my own opinion. I apologize if I have offended anyone in the process.

Let the intellectual debate continue!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MM...No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen...s.. (not always, but I will grant you the analogy). ...Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

s...There will be consequences both ways MM, the ones if you stay may even be worse. I don't think we have any conflict over the issue of consequences. It seems out primary area of contention is who decides our life choice..us, or some arbitrary group of men supposedly sitting in for God. Secondarily what constitutes grounds for leaveing a marriage. And thirdly, what is spiritual marriage (as opposed to legal marriage) anyways.

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You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved.
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Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.

S...so when the believers gathered together and instituted the spanish inquisition that was sanctioned by God? not to mention the millions of other atrocities committed in God's name by gathered believers.

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And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...
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Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not.

s...scratching my head...yes they are MM. And God will recognize the divorce as well, so clearly the choice is the individuals....subject to consequences again.

MM...He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder.

s...This is oft quoted as meaning divorce is not allowed. That is not what it says. It does not say can never be put asunder under any circumstance, nor does it say an individual cannot set aside their own marriage (make a freewill choice)....why say no man, which sounds like anyone else but the given individual. It sounds like an admonition to the state, that the state cannot simply divorce someone for it's purposes. Perhaps declaring all inter-racial marriages annulled, or conspiring with an individual to get rid of a wife (H) for selfish reasons. Maybe a family member, or peer group would try to seperate the couple etc. Some would say civil divorce is just that, I agree. One should address the spiritual issues (themself) before asking the state to rule on the economic contract (which is all a marriage license is IMO). The state cannot decide you are married, or divorced in God's eyes, there are other criteria at work, and I think He makes that clear, so we can know our status. Lastly He does not say (and clearly has the power) He can't end marriages, so divorce (like most choices) is between the believer and God, not subject to anyone elses opinion.

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I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).
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MM...There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them.

s...What does that mean. How does a human being do anything but what we feel like doing. I might feel like flying by flapping my arms and jumping off a cliff...with predictable consequences, so I can't "fly" cause I feel like it. But I can construct an airplane and fly cause I feel like doing so. How one feels is a part of every single decision we make. If I feel like being divorced, but I don't cause I feel more benefit in obeying a particular interpretation of God's will for me, then I did exactly what I felt like. It is nonsensical to say one cannot divorce cause they feel like it...is akin to saying one cannot breathe cause they feel like it. If one assesses they no longer want to be in a marital relationship they can divorce. In fact I think most likely people who no longer want to be married but stay anyways are allready divorced, since God knows our mind. What do you think actually makes you married MM, surely not a piece of paper? What about people who cohabitate, are they married? What about people who don't believe in Christianity, are they married? What is the exact mechansim that creates oneflesh, and how can you know with exactitude it has happened? I asked you earlier questions about intent and capacity to enter a marriage, you did not address those. I would be interested in your views on this matter, when is one actually married, what are the requisite precursurs, what must the final result look like?

MM...Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them.

s..I agree. Divorce IMO can only happen when one party or both says you are divorced, that is all it takes. One can do that with or without God's will (freewill again, and resultant consequences), but the power to divorce can only reside in the individual. You cannot be bound against your will, in the final analysis marriage is a freely made committment, when it is no longer made, the marriage ceases to exist, and defaults to cohabitation, or a simple economic contract (if not living together).

MM...My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM.

s...I agree she proceeded wrong. Did you ever tell her you wanted to divorce her (prior to all this), did she tell you? I can't say for sure, but I wonder if a marriage ends the first time someone says they want a divorce, makes sense. Sort of like pointing a gun and shooting someone, then asking, are you really dead. If no one said they wanted a divorce, then her subsequent actions in not obtaining one suggests she was unclear in herself, despite what she said to you, and as you noted mistreated both you and the om poorly by not knowing what she wanted.

MM...God's way is always right for us. Our way is too often the wrong way and only brings pain.

s...Can't argue with that.

MM...You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

s...smile, MM we do what God wants cause we want to. We always do what we want MM, that is the nature of human life, we are not insects subject to a hive mind, or animals forever constrained by genetic programming. I have no problem with this, and will never give over my will to another man, to do so violates the Creators plan for me.

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You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).
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MM...What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog.

s...love the two ticks thing. It is all just words MM, I agree love is almost a meaningless label anymore, used so often in dysfunctional and/or self-serving ways...Oh I just love my H, even though he beats me regularly, has serial affairs, verbaly abuses me, yada yada yada...yeah right, that is love. I don't think you can decide to love someone either, is a nonsensical notion, you can decide to act in a way, or give things you would not normally do, and call it love. But IMO the love we speak of when trying to identify oneflesh, only exists in a union that meets high standards of being a safe, healthy, nurturing, joyous place.

I agree committment is a factor as well. But committment without standards to assess the marriage is just legalism, and of no value. Nor would I want to be loved that way, who would. In fact we have labels for such committment (when extreme), obsession, stalking, etc.

MM...There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

s...Sounds ok, but God will not save us from a bad marital choice (which one would have avoided had we listened to His will in the first place, no matter we are the avoider or the avoidee).

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Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.
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This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there.

s...Uh, MM you added to my comment, please do not do that, it is very annoying. I said God will be there, not that He would condone whatever we do. The better job we do making choices the better the outcome, I would suggest people always pray and seek discernment for their choices.

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Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.
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The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins.

s..Whoa big guy. That is a reach to equate marriage with believeing in God, and that if you don't get marriage right you will die (unlike getting believeing in God wrong). Calling it a covenant isn't particularly compelling, just wordplay. God clearly recognizes divorce, even explicitly spells out some circumstances, and implies others. You cannot ride the coatails of the New Covenant to make your marital case, apples and oranges.

MM...Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured.

s...No it hasn't. And this again gets into an uncomfortablke area. Death is death, it is unambiguous. Human relationships are anything but simple, they are very complex interactions, including what exactly is marriage (and divorce). If you mean adultery "kills" a marriage, that is ok symbolism, but it is not fact, you can only kill a living thing, living meeting certain observable biologic criteria. I also (haven't yet, but now good as any) take great issue with this notion of spiritual death. No man (or group of men) has any status or capacity to do declare such a thing. It also flies in the face of the entire bedrock of Christianity, that we are all sinners, but are forgiven and can be saved...how does that happen if you are declared dead for some arbitrary reason? Must you be resurrected? We are not Jesus MM, and we are not his bride in a human sense, it is just symbolism. We cannot die and be resurrected because we goofed up today in someway. If so we all need to be declared dead and resurrected daily cause we fall short all the time.

MM...And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

s...I don't think so. He has provided a way to make choices though. He has make our relationship a personal one, we do not need a go between. One can just simply ask Him what to do, the answer will be provided.

MM...My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

s...She cannot decide you will never change, or anything about you, good or bad. She can only decide for herself, and obviously she did not decide the marriage was over, or you would be divorced now. Or perhaps she did decide the covenant was broken, or never existed, and based on your subsequent behaviour has entered (or is considering entering) a new marital covenant with you...that is a different thing, and freewill allows for such outcomes.

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I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.
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MM...Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

S..I am not much into word games MM. You cannot have marriage without divorce is a meaningless concept. You cannot have light without dark, hot without cold, etc. If everyone is married, and it never ends then it is not marriage, it is just the condition that species exists in. I use the label marital choice to include any and all behaviours, choices, consequences etc, arising from contemplation of this behavioural paradigm.

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Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.
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God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

s..That assumes God puts all marriages together. A point I will not conceed (due to freewill).

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The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?
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MM...Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing.

s...Divorce is not a sin. It is a condition of committment with secular and spiritual components having consequences. If it was a sin, then divorce would never be "allowed", but it is under a variety of conditions. That suggests divorce is not against God's will at all, so He may very well lead you to divorce, why wouldn't He?

[ July 13, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Re: God divorcing Israel! You need to read the whole chapter!
He basically removed his grace and protection from her until she would turn again to him! Put her away as well. Get down to verse 14!
Following is remainder of Jer: chapter 3!
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

God has always considered Israel his chosen land and people! He has not forsaken them completely and will rejoin with them.
We are talking the adultery of worshiping other Gods!
There is a big difference between forsaking forever and withdrawing for a time until their repentance!
To try to use the book this guy wrote to justify divorce and marry again and again is in my opinion, Heresy!
He completely takes text out of context, not applying the total Scriptures!
If you read it all, you will find that God did not forsake Israel forever! He states himself that he is her Husband!
Quite frankly, I read the whole article and found it to be disgustingly twisted!
But then, there are other religions that have done the same. Written their own books because they feel there are errors in the Scriptures originally given!
Hey, God allowed Samson to kill many, shall we say that since God allowed that to bring justice that murder is not a sin for any of us as long as we feel justified?
And before anyone thinks I'm condemning those who have divorced and remarried, I am in the same boat! Once divorced and remarried! Not through infidelity, but a year after divorce I met and remarried my current husband.
The law of Moses had been taken and totally misapplied to marriage and divorce in that article.
Shall we also go back to the old testament and decide that since The within first generations some had multiple wives that it is so today?
Um, try reading Hosea and God's word to that situation!
Let us not forget God made it possible for us to be forgiven many times over because he knew we'd screw up a lot!
The scriptures also say if an unfaithful spouse wishes to continue in the marriage, the Betrayed one may choose to also continue.
---- Malachi 2
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

--------Matthew 5:
Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[5] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[6] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Perhaps some would like to research scripture online. I use Biblegateway.com

LEN

The thing about these kinds of discussions is they focus on the "right" to divorce. The quality of the marriage, something one chooses voluntarily, it is not a "rquirement", seems to be of little importance. I find that hard to understand, and suggests to me this argumnent as it rages across the land is driven by two mindsets...one being the rulemakers, those for who the rules are everything, the outcomes of less concern, their safety, there reason for living lies in a dance with the rules. The other mindset is about does something make sense, does the outcome match the purpose of the rule, if not the rule is being misapplied, or maybe just wrong, and is discarded, clarified, overhauled.

These two poles will never agree, they cannot, they live in different realities and it will color every argument, every decision, every interpretation and so forth. We clearly must have rule, which is why we have evolved rulemakers, they are essential to our survival...likewise we clearly must have rule challengers, who focus on outcomes, to keep the rulemakers from rigidity and ultimately self-destructing under weight of the rules. Likewise the rulemakers (as a majority) exert a lot of control over the challengers, making them work hard at proving their case, and proceeding slowly with change, lest we throw out the good rules with the not so good rules, and perish in confusion and chaos as our carefully crafted (and maintained) systems fall apart.

Since God made us this way, must be a good thing, but it sure is hard for the two types to get along (or reach consensus) when fundamental issues are at stake. It is even more difficult when the two types are interacting in personal relationships (family, marital, partnerships, community) etc.

God provides lots of information about what a healthy marriage looks like, I think He does so for a reason, so we can assess our personal circumstances and make decisions accordingly. If marriage were just about rules, would be no need for this info. IMO marital decisions need to be made in the light of both rules, and quality.

There is one thing that I find with sudfd threads. Why do you seem to have to put the words of 'who you sleep with'. Does marriage mean so little to you than a sleeping partner. I have read your posts elsewhere, and you bring this up quite frequently.

Also, you are really out on left field on divorce and sin. Divorce is sin. God does not want divorce, and quit the crap of so your husband beats you several times. What about men who could't keep their pants zipped up, and look into their wives eyes and see the hurt they cause. Why do you have to put everything at the worst. I know I was an obedient wife. I did almost everything my husband wanted. I even got a parttime job, and he came to my place of work, made a scene and I put my resignation in 1 week later. And he agreed to have me work outside the home to make some money to play with. And then when it didn't fit his chart, he came and made a scene. He wouldn't let me do things without asking him. So many people would ask me why did I have to ask my husband and I said cause I had to. But he purchased big items, did things without me, and didn't think anything about it. I worked hard for this man. I ran the business, we had out of the home. And didn't receive one paycheck all those 25 years.

Divorce is a sin, and where you get your theory, sounds like you haven't read the Bible. Read the above passages out of the bible. And see where you committed sin, and hurt your family, and especially your wife. I for one know that a man who has a sexual affair in their marriage, don't give a crap about their wife, and don't care what they said to their wife. Read the threads here and read how the betrayed wife had to deal with a ballistic man. The Bible states, treat yourmate as a possession of love. A possession that you will give all you have to that person. Treat her like you would treat yourself.

If you are to remarry, you will be committing sin. According to the bible, the only one that you are allowed to marry is your wife. Your wife will always be your wife, no matter how you look at it. You two went before the altar with God, and professed your love to each other for life. Not till the grass is greener on the other side, or till you get tired of the person. This was a committment with God, and only God. For you to think that you have not sinned, for you to not have committed adultery, you are one person in need of counseling.

Many many posters have stated their pain, and look at their spouses eyes, seeing only betrayal and sin. Seems that divorce is too easy, and the committment was not there in the first place. Maybe all going to the altar should be going for a lie detector test first.

This was stated before, once you are married, if you divorce you have committed sin. And if you marry another, is sin. The only one that you are allowed to marry is your spouse. Cause you both created this union, oneflesh with God at the altar. SUDFD, so you didn't committment yourself at the altar to oneflesh. Did you go to the altar stating until I get tired of this one?

We are not perfect humans. No one is perfect, and therefore everyone needs to confess their sins. Show empathy, and compassion. Show remorse and guilt for what they have done. That is in the Bible also. That is part of the healing process. Without this, there is no healing.

sudfd? this quote you put, where in the bible do you find this?
(Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.)
According to all the bible versions I read, it says where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be also and it applies to prayer. Not judging!
We are in fact, commanded not to judge.
Matthew 18:
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This clearly appears to be as agreeing in a prayer for a request. Not judging.

Of course, not all who post are of the Christian religion. But if you are and want to know the truth, it's dependent on deep research in the bible for yourself. Not taking some other persons book written and interpreted purely on their whims.
Even though one has their Pastor as a spiritual teacher, it is necessary for each person to delve into the word, read it, pray for spiritual guidance to understand it. For it's pure interpretation as God meant it.
So many can twist it, change it around to suit their own lifestyle desires.
And reference in the many books for a full knowledge. Not just one, but all 66!
We cannot pull one or two verses out and get the full context of a chapter.
As for God having given a divorcement as was mentioned in the Article you put, it says since it's not a sin for God to do, then it's ok for us.
I totally disagree with this Dr.'s opinion.
Then we could say oh well, God brings judgement, punishment and death on people, so it's ok for us to do too?
NOT! We are not God. And to twist his works around to please our own little gray areas is just what some authors do.
Besides, Divocement in the meaning of what God did with Israel is fully different than us breaking our marriages apart.
Choices? We made the choices of whom we would marry. It's our judgement that is at fault if we later decide we don't like it.
Whatever two people had to bring them together to begin with is to be kept or renewed. Not just dumped the min the going gets tough.
There are instances of physical, mental, emotional abuse that cannot be tolerated and I believe in that instance, God will make a way out. But it might not be divorce at all.
Infidelity can be many ways. Not just sexual.
Man is to love his wife as he loves his own body/and the church.
It might take years to rebuild what has fallen away in a marriage, but it is rebuildable.
Too many simply look for any excuse to divorce and run over to the next greener looking Pasture.
Guess what? They all have weeds!Who you are in one marriage is who you will take with you to the next one!
I know one man whose wife moved in with another man. But her H didn't divorce her. He waited 5 yrs, due to his christian belief.
She finally filed for divorce. But this way it's her who broke the covenant, not him.
He never intended to file so he would not be held accountable for breaking the covenant. And it's a covenant not only between two people, but with God as well.
LouLou

Thanks LadyLou and Faith, you bring up some very good points.

SB,

I am going to address all of your latest post, but I want to say something first. To me, it appears that you say a lot of "I believe" but not a lot of "God has said or written." Now, I am not here to argue beliefs, nor pursuade anyone in them. This thread has to do with marriage, divorce and remarriage and whether divorce and remarriage is a sin in God's eyes (read the Christian God). Now, if other religions, atheists, sects of Christianity that arent really Christians (and tghere are a few), want to talk about beliefs in the sins of adultery, divorce and remarriage, then they are welcome to it. But here, we are talking about Christians and what God expects of us.[/quote]

In the Christian faith, heathens are expected to sin. It is human nature. If the sins that you have committed already in your life have given you a death sentence (and God does state that ALL sin has the penalty of death, no matter how we view it in severity), then who cares if you commit a few more.

Christians are different. We are no longer sinners, no longer heathens. We are Christ in us. Does that mean we dont sin? Of course not. It means that we are a new creature and no longer bound by our flesh (sinful nature). So, we can chose not to sin based on the fact that sin no longer has a hold on us.

When a Christian sins, it is because they believe the lie of their old nature. That dont believe in who they have become, who they REALLY are. My wife said today that when she started the affair, she was done with the marriage. She said she had reached her limit. Now, if you are talking about JUST the limits of Mrs. MM, I would agree with her. But she is saved, and she was nowhere near her real limits. Why? Because she has the strength of Christ in her. And thus she has enough strength to carry on, no matter what. But she lost sight of who she REALLY is and acted on the lie from Satan, the one that says that she had not changed, that she was still the same ole Mrs. MM. All lies. But she fell for it.

I will get to your posts now. Maybe I am wrong about what I see is your emphasis on YOUR beliefs, and not the emphasis on what God has said. Now, if you want a discussion on the validity of the Bible, or its accuracy after being handed down through the years, then we can do that (but I would rather just give you a list of books, two in particular, that may lay to reast any doubts you have on whether the Bible you are reading is the Word of God). But, I am having this discussion with fellow believers. That presupposes that those believers believe in the central tenets of Christianity (we may not all have the same interpretation on the small stuff...and that's fine) and believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

Now, I am going to get to your post. Maybe I am wrong about what I said above about you. If I am, I apologize for my mistake. But it just seems that you want to argue beliefs. I will show you how I arrived at this below. This thread is not about arguing beliefs. It is about the discussion of what God has said, and try to find out His intent through that. So, let's try to stay away from beliefs that are not at least backed up by Scriptuure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
MM...No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen...s.. (not always, but I will grant you the analogy). ...Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

s...There will be consequences both ways MM, the ones if you stay may even be worse. I don't think we have any conflict over the issue of consequences. It seems out primary area of contention is who decides our life choice..us, or some arbitrary group of men supposedly sitting in for God. Secondarily what constitutes grounds for leaveing a marriage. And thirdly, what is spiritual marriage (as opposed to legal marriage) anyways.<hr /></blockquote>First off, of course there are consequences for what we do. I have accepted my wife back home after her betrayal. There have been many consequences because of that decision. Not all of them have been pleasant. On the deciding a life choice, as you put it...well, first of all, we made that choice when we said "Until death do us part." Also, when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior (and by being our Lord, means we subject ourselves to His rules), we also accepted all of the views and His will when it comes to marriage. The group that God says we must use when we have a problem with our brother or sister is not arbitrary. It isnt just picked out of a crowd. The "group" isnt allowed to do whatever it wants. It must subject itself to God, His Word, and His decisions. So, if one's church cannot do this, that cannot render a righteous decision (God's will), then it is time to find a new church! I believe the primary contention between you and I is not about this group, but whether or not God gets His freewill in this. God has expressed His views on marriage, divorce and remarriage. They are unambiguous. So, He has expressed His will in this situation. Does He get NO say in the marriage that He created (and the Bible does say He created marriage, for the believer and heathen). Thus, if He is God, and He has freewill also, wouldnt it make sense that He can create the rules for an institution that He created? God defines what marriage is, not us. He made it!

On your second point, it is clearly stated several times in the New Testament what the grounds for divorce and/or remarriage. A widow can remarry due to physical death. A person can also divorce and remarry due to spiritual death (more on this below). Please read these. Many of them have been posted in posts above.

On your third issue, a marriage is a marriage. It isnt spiritual or non-spiritual. It is a marriage. Marriage is an institution created by God, with rules created by God, and its purpose is from the view of God. We have no right, especially as Christians (since WE made Him Lord) to question those rules and decisions. Who do we think we are? We are talking about God here, not the President of the United States! Unfortunately, humans in their sinful nature want to make life all about themselves. Well, creation, life, etc...it is all about Him. It is His ballgame. He has given us freewill. That power we do have. But we have NO power to change or modify or cancel his rules.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved. Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.

S...so when the believers gathered together and instituted the spanish inquisition that was sanctioned by God? not to mention the millions of other atrocities committed in God's name by gathered believers. <hr /></blockquote>Like I outlined above, we are either under the rule of God, or we are in rebellion and sin. The atrocities you outlined above were due to individuals that did not believe in who they really are. They believed the lie! Thus, they acted on their own. In the military, we have a chain of command. The higher guys make the rules for the lower guys. Now, within the limits of the rules, we have the right to freewill. But we have no right to change the rules of higher HQ. And we as Christians (or any human being for that matter) have no right to redifine what we believe to be fair or just, and ignore God's will or intent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...
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Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not.

s...scratching my head...yes they are MM. And God will recognize the divorce as well, so clearly the choice is the individuals....subject to consequences again.<hr /></blockquote>God does not recognize an "illegal" divorce. A divorce must be legal on His terms! And His terms require death.

Look, two guys might want to "marry" each other, they have the ceremony, the State ordains their union. Did they have freewill? Of course. Is it a marriage that God recognizes? Of course not! God has defined marriage, and that aint it! Same goes for divorce. God has defined what constitutes a legal divorce. If you do it YOUR way, He still looks at you and says "What divorce? I dont see any divorce. If you had REALLY divorced, you would have done X, Y, Z... You are not divorced." Want an example? The woman at the well. Jesus recognized that she had 5 husbands! She was a polygamist. Why? Because she had married these men one at a time, but never bothered to divorce the right way, under the conditions that God has set for divorce. Of course, He then goes and tells her to go and sin no more. After she had repented, and decided to follow Him, then her marriages were declared dead, and she was free to remarry. Also, look at David in 2nd Samuel. God did not recognize his marriage to Bathsheba because she was still married to her husband (never sought an acceptable divorce). So, we have adultery. It wasnt until God received just compensation for their sins (through the death of their first child) that God then blessed their marriage and orrspring. There ALWAYS has to be death for God to accept remarriage. The passages that outline this were listed above by someone else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder.

s...This is oft quoted as meaning divorce is not allowed. That is not what it says.<hr /></blockquote>I did not say that. Nor would I ever. In God's eyes, I had grounds for divorce at one time due to the spiritual death of my wife due to adultery. Thus, I know that God does PERMIT divorce. But understand this...God never will tell you that His will is for you to divorce. He has just permitrted it under certain conditions, due to the hardness of our hearts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It does not say can never be put asunder under any circumstance,<hr /></blockquote>of course not...it says man is not to put it assunder...only He can!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />nor does it say an individual cannot set aside their own marriage (make a freewill choice)....<hr /></blockquote>What? What Bible are you reading? It absolutely says that you cant decide to end your marriage. That there are conditions, and there is a process. You made a choice when you married. You made a vow. You entered into a covenant, of which the rules and regulations are clearly outlined. To not live up to your agreement is not to have God disallow freewill. It is just that you will reap what you sew.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />why say no man, which sounds like anyone else but the given individual. It sounds like an admonition to the state, that the state cannot simply divorce someone for it's purposes.<hr /></blockquote>That is absoltuely not what the bible is stating. If God had wanted to say State (governement), He would have said so. He says NO MAN. That is individual. That is anyone! God has the rights of God. And one of those rights is to set the rules. We are His creations. We have NO RIGHT to set the rules, except those that he delegates to us. He gave us freewill in order for us to make the decision to love Him, or not. And He has said what happens to you, depending on that decision. And that is His right and His freewill. Just as you have the freewill to reject Him. But if you do, then you WILL get what you DESERVE. All sin carries the death penalty. Without God's grace, you are subject to that penalty for that which you have done against God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Perhaps declaring all inter-racial marriages annulled, or conspiring with an individual to get rid of a wife (H) for selfish reasons. Maybe a family member, or peer group would try to seperate the couple etc. Some would say civil divorce is just that, I agree. One should address the spiritual issues (themself) before asking the state to rule on the economic contract (which is all a marriage license is IMO).<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely none of this comes from His word or is Scriptural. And since we are talking about God here, then I will ignore this. Except to say again that our beliefs here are a dime a dozen. We all have them. But this discussion is about what God has said, commanded, etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The state cannot decide you are married, or divorced in God's eyes, there are other criteria at work, and I think He makes that clear, so we can know our status. Lastly He does not say (and clearly has the power) He can't end marriages, so divorce (like most choices) is between the believer and God, not subject to anyone elses opinion. <hr /></blockquote>Not what God has said. As a matter of fact, He has said exactly the opposite of what you have stated here. Read VERY closely 1st Corinthians 7. He doesnt say this is "one" way. He says that if your brother or sister sin against you, and you talk to them and they wont listen to reason, then you are to take them to the church. End of story.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MM...There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them.

s...What does that mean. How does a human being do anything but what we feel like doing. I might feel like flying by flapping my arms and jumping off a cliff...with predictable consequences, so I can't "fly" cause I feel like it. But I can construct an airplane and fly cause I feel like doing so. How one feels is a part of every single decision we make. If I feel like being divorced, but I don't cause I feel more benefit in obeying a particular interpretation of God's will for me, then I did exactly what I felt like. It is nonsensical to say one cannot divorce cause they feel like it...is akin to saying one cannot breathe cause they feel like it. If one assesses they no longer want to be in a marital relationship they can divorce.<hr /></blockquote>This is your belief, and you are ABSOLUTELY entitled to have it. But that being said, understand...this is NOT what God has said, not what Jesus preached when He was here. I no of no Chapter in the Bible that says what you have stated above. But there are MANY in there that state the exact opposite. Divorce is God's perview. He has stated how it will happen and under what conditions it will happen. There is no assessment. There is only obedience, or disobedience.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In fact I think most likely people who no longer want to be married but stay anyways are allready divorced, since God knows our mind.<hr /></blockquote>The key word here is that you said "you think." But your belief is not Scriptural. He says you are bound to your spouse as long as they are alive. And that you are no longer bound once your spouse is dead. Very clear wording here. Not really open to interpretation. No matter if you are happy, or sad...marriage is predicated on something else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What do you think actually makes you married MM, surely not a piece of paper?<hr /></blockquote>It is the supernatural joining of a husband and wife into one flesh. That is marriage. it doesnt matter what kind of ceremony, or what you say at the ceremony. Paper or no paper. It is what God does to the two of you that makes the difference. And it is that joinging by Him that gives Him the right to say when it is seperated. And He has said unequivically that only death shall seperate you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What about people who cohabitate, are they married?<hr /></blockquote>Nope...and they are committing the sin of fornication (if they are having sex).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What about people who don't believe in Christianity, are they married?<hr /></blockquote>Yes. God has many rules, institutions, etc that ALL humans are subject to. He made the Law of Gravity. We are all subject to it the same. Marriage was created by Him. He set up the rules.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What is the exact mechansim that creates oneflesh, and how can you know with exactitude it has happened?<hr /></blockquote>GREAT question! The exact same one that I have been asking. But guess what...there is an answer. I actually did research into the one flesh thing and have the answer, but it is at home and I wont be home for another week. But the one flesh thing has to do with God binding the two into one. "Bone of bone, flesh of flesh. When I get back home, I will try to post the conditions for a one flesh relationship. But the basis is that God does this...it isnt from anything we do. And, how do I know with certitude that this happens? Because God says so...and He never lies nor disppoints.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I asked you earlier questions about intent and capacity to enter a marriage, you did not address those. I would be interested in your views on this matter, when is one actually married, what are the requisite precursurs, what must the final result look like?<hr /></blockquote>Not sure what you mean by what the final result looking like. But a marriage is not something that can be pinpointed exactly. Are you married before the vows? After them? With no ceremony? There is a biblical notion of consummating the marriage. So in my "beliefs," I have always believed that my wife and I didnt become marriaed and one flesh until the moment we consummated our marriage. Again, the exact moment is a good question, and will be the subject of my future studies.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them.

s..I agree. Divorce IMO can only happen when one party or both says you are divorced, that is all it takes.<hr /></blockquote>So when my wife decided after I left for Bosnia that she was done with the marriage, then after that, she was no longer married? So that meant that she didnt commit adultery? Whew!! All the time I thought my wife had been immoral, but now I see that she can just make up what married is and when she is married or not anytime she liked. Okay, I am being sarcastic. But my wife took the same position to justify her affair. But no matter her feelings and justifications, she was still married to me and still committing adultery. This is why that God took out the ability of the individual to decide these things. Because in the emotional mess that relationships find themselves sometimes, it would be too easy for people to just jump from one marriage to the next when one or the other spouses can just say "I'm done"...and then she can continue looking for another spouse or playmate. Understand this...what you have prsented in that statement is NOT Scriptural.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One can do that with or without God's will (freewill again, and resultant consequences), but the power to divorce can only reside in the individual.<hr /></blockquote>Where do you get this. God's word in the Bible is exactly opposite of this. So, who brought up these ideas. They are definitely nor scriptural.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You cannot be bound against your will, in the final analysis marriage is a freely made committment, when it is no longer made, the marriage ceases to exist, and defaults to cohabitation, or a simple economic contract (if not living together).<hr /></blockquote>Marriage is not being bound against your will. Your will was when you married. Is this tough stuff? Oh yeah!Marriage is hard to get into, and even harder to get out of in reference to God's provisions. Why? Because God knew we would be very destructive in our relationships and to our children, if left to our devices. When I decide that I no longer want to live up to a contract, that doesnt mean that the contract is null and void. In actuality, when I decide not to live up to a contract, then the penalty phase comes in. Again, your view here is not Scriptural.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM.

s...I agree she proceeded wrong. Did you ever tell her you wanted to divorce her (prior to all this), did she tell you?<hr /></blockquote>No and no.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I can't say for sure, but I wonder if a marriage ends the first time someone says they want a divorce, makes sense.<hr /></blockquote>I can say for sure. The Bible doesnt say the marriage ends when someone says so. It says that it ends with a "death."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sort of like pointing a gun and shooting someone, then asking, are you really dead. If no one said they wanted a divorce, then her subsequent actions in not obtaining one suggests she was unclear in herself, despite what she said to you, and as you noted mistreated both you and the om poorly by not knowing what she wanted.<hr /></blockquote>Not really. She didnt tell me to protect me while I was in harms way in Bosnia. Waited until I got back. But, she was serious!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

s...smile, MM we do what God wants cause we want to. We always do what we want MM, that is the nature of human life, we are not insects subject to a hive mind, or animals forever constrained by genetic programming. I have no problem with this, and will never give over my will to another man, to do so violates the Creators plan for me.<hr /></blockquote>First off, of course we do what we want to. The point of your walk with Christ is to change your wants. As a new creature, your wants should change, because now you subordinate your sinful fleshly wants for the wants of Him who is now in you. Now, His wants are your wants. We get in trouble when they are not. The Creators plan for us is to love Him. Not to find happiness in ourselves. It is all about him!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too.<hr /></blockquote>True!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).<hr /></blockquote>See back to another post I had here. Duty, obedience, committment...these are the basis of a good marriage. They are the bedrock that you can rely on when things are tough and you arent "feeling the love." So, building a relationship based on these things is not unhealthy. It actually will give your relationship a fighting chance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog.

s...love the two ticks thing. It is all just words MM, I agree love is almost a meaningless label anymore, used so often in dysfunctional and/or self-serving ways...Oh I just love my H, even though he beats me regularly, has serial affairs, verbaly abuses me, yada yada yada...yeah right, that is love. I don't think you can decide to love someone either, is a nonsensical notion, you can decide to act in a way, or give things you would not normally do, and call it love. But IMO the love we speak of when trying to identify oneflesh, only exists in a union that meets high standards of being a safe, healthy, nurturing, joyous place.<hr /></blockquote>Have you read the requirements of a husband for his wife. He is to love her as Christ loves the church. What kind of love is that? God's love. Alone, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to love his wife in the way she deserves, and in a way that will protect the relationship. it takes LOVE Himself to provide that love to you and through you. A marriage makes it because when my flesh says I want to throw my wife out because of what she has done, the love of Christ tells me to forgive, to love her with a sacrificial love, to treat her as a someone special. But, while I dont feel it, my committment to my wife, and more importantly, to Christ, allows me to find the love and strength to give my wife the type of husband that God demands.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I agree committment is a factor as well. But committment without standards to assess the marriage is just legalism, and of no value.<hr /></blockquote>True..and God HAS already set the standards. We do not get to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nor would I want to be loved that way, who would. In fact we have labels for such committment (when extreme), obsession, stalking, etc. <hr /></blockquote>ANYTHING in extremes is usually bad (love, hard work, working out, etc.). Actually, a spouse who has a spouse who is committed to them through the principles and direction of God, has a better chance of being loved the way she/he wants to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

s...Sounds ok, but God will not save us from a bad marital choice (which one would have avoided had we listened to His will in the first place, no matter we are the avoider or the avoidee).<hr /></blockquote>True. But God takes all things in the believers life and uses them for the good of the believer (Read Romans).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.
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This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there.

s...Uh, MM you added to my comment, please do not do that, it is very annoying.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, didnt mean to be annoying.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I said God will be there, not that He would condone whatever we do. The better job we do making choices the better the outcome, I would suggest people always pray and seek discernment for their choices.<hr /></blockquote>No problem here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.
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The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins.

s..Whoa big guy. That is a reach to equate marriage with believeing in God, and that if you don't get marriage right you will die (unlike getting believeing in God wrong).<hr /></blockquote>Didnt say that if you dont get marriage right. Death comes from rebellion to God's word, no matter what you are rebelling against. So yes, if you divorce for a non-biblical reason, and do so in a way not prescribed by God, then you are sinning. If you knew better beforehand, but did it anyway, then you are rebelling. 1st Corinthians 7 is there so believers can pull another believer back into the fold before they rebel (and die). But in the end, if they still want to continue in their own way (thus rebellion), then they are spiritually dead.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Calling it a covenant isn't particularly compelling, just wordplay.<hr /></blockquote>Not my wordplay...it is God's wordplay. So, your argument on whether marriage is a covenant is with Him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God clearly recognizes divorce, even explicitly spells out some circumstances, and implies others. You cannot ride the coatails of the New Covenant to make your marital case, apples and oranges.<hr /></blockquote>Didnt ride the coattails of the New Covenant. Just used it as an example of one covenant. All covenants are the same. By definition. A CONTRACT is a legally binding agreement. A COVENANT is a legally binding agreement, under the threat of death for those that do not live up to it. In the New Covenant, we didnt live up toi the contract with God. Thus, God's holy sense of justice demanded a death. And sent His son to do so for us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured.

s...No it hasn't. And this again gets into an uncomfortablke area. Death is death, it is unambiguous.<hr /></blockquote>It is? In the Bible, there are two kinds of death. One is physical, the other is spiritual. It is possible to be physically alive and spiritually dead. Adam and Eve were told that if they ate the fruit, then they would die. Well, they did and they didnt. At least not physically. But spiritually, they were. They were cut off from a relationship with God. If you are uncomfortable with this, I am sorry. So was I a few months ago. But I didnt write it, I am just the messenger.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Human relationships are anything but simple, they are very complex interactions, including what exactly is marriage (and divorce).<hr /></blockquote>Relationships are compex. God's view on marriage and divorce is not. Easy...no. Simple...yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you mean adultery "kills" a marriage, that is ok symbolism, but it is not fact, you can only kill a living thing, living meeting certain observable biologic criteria.<hr /></blockquote>Not what I am talking about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I also (haven't yet, but now good as any) take great issue with this notion of spiritual death. No man (or group of men) has any status or capacity to do declare such a thing.<hr /></blockquote>Again, your problem isnt with me, it is with God. He said it. it is His word. A man's status in this is what God says it is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It also flies in the face of the entire bedrock of Christianity, that we are all sinners, but are forgiven and can be saved...how does that happen if you are declared dead for some arbitrary reason?<hr /></blockquote>Rerad 1st Corinthians 7 very closely. if you go thru that and they are still rebelling, then they are to be TREATED AS IF they were sinners or tax gatherers. Treated AS IF they were dead spiritually. They are released to the consequences of their rebellion AS IF they werent saved. Christ will not mitigate the consequences nor provide grace in rebellion. Only afterwards.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Must you be resurrected?<hr /></blockquote>No. You dont lose your salvation. You are just treated as if you had. Until you repent. See 2nd Samuel with David and Bathsheba for a GREAT example.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We are not Jesus MM, and we are not his bride in a human sense, it is just symbolism.<hr /></blockquote>You must think all of the bible is symbolism. I have heard that a lot out of you. And we are not Christ...we ARE Christ in us. That is who we are.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We cannot die and be resurrected because we goofed up today in someway. If so we all need to be declared dead and resurrected daily cause we fall short all the time.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. Not what I said. See above.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

s...I don't think so. He has provided a way to make choices though. He has make our relationship a personal one, we do not need a go between. One can just simply ask Him what to do, the answer will be provided.<hr /></blockquote>Correct. Absolutely correct. But He will NEVER contradict Himself. So if He says He is the only way, then He is the only way. If He says let no man put a marriage assunder, then that is they way it is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MM...My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

s...She cannot decide you will never change, or anything about you, good or bad. She can only decide for herself, and obviously she did not decide the marriage was over, or you would be divorced now. Or perhaps she did decide the covenant was broken, or never existed, and based on your subsequent behaviour has entered (or is considering entering) a new marital covenant with you...that is a different thing, and freewill allows for such outcomes.<hr /></blockquote>The second is what happened.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.
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MM...Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

S..I am not much into word games MM.<hr /></blockquote>I am not either. But guess what? Words do mean things. They are not always symbolism or bague.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You cannot have marriage without divorce is a meaningless concept. You cannot have light without dark, hot without cold, etc. If everyone is married, and it never ends then it is not marriage, it is just the condition that species exists in.<hr /></blockquote>If you have marriage without divorce, then you have PERFECTION!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I use the label marital choice to include any and all behaviours, choices, consequences etc, arising from contemplation of this behavioural paradigm.<hr /></blockquote>Okay.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry...didnt make the rules. Take it up with the guy who did.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

s..That assumes God puts all marriages together. A point I will not conceed (due to freewill).<hr /></blockquote>And you can say such a thing. it is your right. But you cannot say that the Bible does not state this, because it does. So the question remains...do you believe the Bible? If you do, then God's word and promises are true.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?
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MM...Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing.

s...Divorce is not a sin.<hr /></blockquote>It ABSOLUTELY IS! In order to get a divorce, we have to disobey God. Either we are divorcing when there is no grounds (as He has outlined), or we have grounds but do not pursue it in the prescribed way. Either way, that is sin!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It is a condition of committment with secular and spiritual components having consequences. If it was a sin, then divorce would never be "allowed", but it is under a variety of conditions.<hr /></blockquote>Killing is a sin, but only when it is murder. Defending yourself, killing is not a sin. Thus, killing can be a sin or not. Same thing with divorce. Sex in marriage is not a sin. Sex any other way is a sin. Sex itself is not a sin...it only is a sin when we have it outside the God-prescribed boundaries and rules. Divorce God's way, under His conditions, is not a sin. Divorce under our own way and reasons is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />That suggests divorce is not against God's will at all, so He may very well lead you to divorce, why wouldn't He?<hr /></blockquote>As I have shown above, this is not the case. Divorce is against His will, always. but due to the hardness of our hearts, He has PERMITTED it under certain narrow circumstances.

As I said above, I had the same questions as you and many of these things I did not know. I have taken the time to study this intensely. Many times, there is room for interpretation. But most of what I have presented here is very unambiguous.

I know that God can present His will to an individual. But He never, ever contradicts Himself. He has prescribed the boundaries, rules, etc for marriage and divorce. I caution you that if you are going to discuss God's will, that it must align itself with what He has said.

In His arms.

LadyLou,

I may be wrong (because I have been up all night), but I think I read that you said that Christians are not supposed to judge, and that Christ is not there in judgments.

1st Corinthians 7 absolutely says that Christians are to judge. It exhorts us that when we judge, we will be judged by the same standard that we judge. So, we are to be careful when and how we judge. And it does say that where two or more gather in His name, there He will be. And that was in the context of the discussion, which was rendering judgments.

In His arms.

OOPPPSSS...I told you I am low on sleep.

To everyone, where i have referenced 1st Corinthians 7, please look to Matthew 18. Sorry!!!

Mathew 18:

15"If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.16But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.17If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.18I tell you this: Whatever you prohibit on earth is prohibited in heaven, and whatever you allow on earth is allowed in heaven.19"I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you.20For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."

MM...To me, it appears that you say a lot of "I believe" but not a lot of "God has said or written." Now, I am not here to argue beliefs, nor pursuade anyone in them. This thread has to do with marriage, divorce and remarriage and whether divorce and remarriage is a sin in God's eyes (read the Christian God).

s...My use of the phrase I believe means...."it is my interpretation of Christian doctrine (and Scripture), and my understanding of the revealed God that..."

But it is a little cumbersome to say this each time. Hope that clarify's where I am coming from. Although context should have, no problem though with your concern.

On another note about the use of the word covenant. First the Bible is not written in english, so I am not sure the exact meanings of marital covenant and other covenants are equivalents in the way you stated (violation of a covenant means death), just cause you use the same english word. I am not even sure the principle of covenant exists as you suggest it. (Not that covenants don't exist at all). You are suggesting some arbitrary mechanism is extant, and that if one can have it labeled on them you violate it or die as an imposed punishment. It seems more like to me a covenant could be akin to a principle, like gravity, if I violate it, I will be injured, may even die, but not because I believe or not in gravity. God does not kill anyone (I guess, maybe he does sometimes I dunno, but in general) because they choose (freewill) not to make the leap of faith...you die because you didn't make the leap of faith and went down with the airplane instead of accepting the proffered parachute.

Regarding your most recent post, there was a lot of hey it's not me, this is God's idea. Well that isn't an argument MM. That is why we are having this discussion. We differ on Scriptural interpretation. Whether you are the better Scriptural whiz or not (and I mean that in a freindly manner) doesn't give you any points. I have read the Bible too, and was raised in all the usual Christian enviroments. I feel comfortable I have sufficient information to have the interpretive opinions I make (and some of this is not opinion but discussion as well, devils advocate and all that), and feel no need to quote chapter and verse (something I am not good at). In the end Christianity is a personal religion, between one and God, and is not about which individual (or even scholar) is a better at making their case with Scripture. In the end every interpretation is wrong, cause none of us (humans) has perfect understanding.

On another note (the declared spiritually dead thing). I did some surfing last night and asked that question on a Christian site (not sure where, and not saying they were right either). I was told your use of this idea is not Scriptural. That God nowhere empowers any humans to declare someone spiritually dead, and that was not the point of the Scriptures you quote in that particular. This still greatly distrubs me as a concept...One I intend to find out more about. At the very least it offers no accountability if the church court errs, and they will, they must, it is not a perfect process. No one can tell someone they are married, should remain married, are divorced, or can divorce...no one. It is a decision made between the individual and God.

We are reaching the point where one starts repeating themselves, so will not rehash the rehashing, but later will add any more comments that come to mind about your last reply, and maybe a conclusion. Thx for the discussion. I will be interested in your comments on when exactly marriage occurs (and IMO it is not when consummated, for a whole host of reasons...and someone (you?) said bethrothal was marital committment in ancient times, that would be before consummation). .. what exactly makes one married (and not the words people say, but the conditions that prevail, and why if a marriage is not working like God describes is it still a marriage...and how does that work with oneflesh.

I have a real problem with the notion....oh la di da, I am dating someone and they are just so wonderful, and after a month they go to a JP and take out a marriage license (or a church, and now they are automatically merged into this oneflesh status...then one comes to find out they made a bad decision, the person is nothing like who they thought they were...ok, so there are consequences to making bad choices...but losing your entire life, being bound to someone against your (now) will...whew, that is a heck of a price to pay for a momentary lapse of good sense. Heck we (and God) know people make dumb choices all the time, so interpreting God's will for marriage as glorifying bad choices is nonsensical. And saying, oh well, that is what He says is not true, it is an interpretation, and not a very good one at that. Since the concept of divorce exists, and conditons for it (including hard hearts). Making marriage more important than the well-being of the people in it seems at odds with the Bible in general, God is not about legalism, He is about our well-being. I think Scripture supports that. Your argument boils down to legalism, that being married is what makes us healthy, that we are being judged by our acts, and efforts at obedience, regardless of the damage we sustain. Yet we know (as you pointed out with the inquisition example) that obedience can be missapplied, often horribly so. That tells me there has to be a balance, and that the well-being of the supplicant is relevant to God's will..and that a marriage which is not a safe healthy nurturing place is NOT God's will for us. So we cannot interpret marital doctrine legally only, but intent and capacity of the individuals is a factor in the consummation and oneflesh issues, and must be accounted for in marital doctrine. If not, the interpretaion is de facto incomplete.

This post has gotten so many answers since I was last here, and I scanned through but honestly don't have time to read it all, so please forgive me if I touch on something already covered. One thing that bothered me is that around post 50 I said that 1 Corinthians 7 never talked about the church discipline that you are talking about. I said that a chapter in Matthew did, and that that was for all sin. No one acknowledged this, so after 110 posts, you finally realize that you have been on the wrong scripture about this the whole time. How many people have been talking of this, and didn't open the Bible and read where the passage was, or research for themselves? This is what most deeply disturbs me when discussing religion or Christianity. Who has opened the Bible and looked? Very clearly in 1 Corinthians 7 it says that if an unbeliever chooses to leave a believer, a believer should let him./ This means submitting to the divorce, because you cannot "make someone do something- especially a nonbeliever". We would also all do well to remember 1 Peter 3:15 - but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared for a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness & reverence. Some people were telling newbeginning that she was called to evangelize. She is, in her everyday life, and if people ASK. I do not believe that we are to try to inflict our religion on others day after day- or then they will really not want to be a Christian. How appetizing is it to tell someone how they should be living, when it is unsolicited advice?
Matthew 18 should be carried out for ALL sins. But rarely is it. It never says anywhere in the Bible that you must do this or you are still married. Nowhere. The person in Matthew 18, if he does not listen, is treated as a heathen or pagan- which means at least temporarily expelled from Christian fellowship. Does this mean spiritually dead? I don't know. I know it doesn't say that. I know it says adultery is the pathway to death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the church declares someone spiritually dead and if you remarry you are sinning until that happens. Very clearly it says in Matthew 19:9 that if you divorce and remarry, EXCEPT for sexual immorality, you are committing adultery. So let's not forget that verse. I know I won't. The truth is, everyone, EVEN if you are all Christians, or all another religion, will disagree about something. Where is your heart? Where is this debate? Is it a prayerful, well thought out debate, or a I am right and you are wrong debate? Has anyone stopped to pray or to listen to your heart on such matters? Is the Lord involved? Is it more of a "let's inflict rules" or let's have a relationship and ask God about his will for our lives kind of thing? Opinions are like Old Navy Shirts, everyone has one and you will never make anyone completely agree with you no matter what. So while discussions are good, and healthy, and encouraged, after all, we are on a discussion forum, the bottom line is, it is between you and God. What some feel convicted about, others may not. The Bible is the truth. The Bible is also open to many interpretations. So seek GOD for answers. And be at peace knowing you are doing the best YOU can with YOUR life.

[ July 14, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />....in 1 Corinthians 7 it says that if an unbeliever chooses to leave a believer, a believer should let him./ This means submitting to the divorce, because you cannot "make someone do something- especially a nonbeliever".<hr /></blockquote>Adgirl,
I agree with you on this point. Further, when one is m'd to an unbeliever, and THEY (unbeliever) "leave" - or div. the believer, I would say the believer is absolved of any guilt - at least as far as breaking this covenant, since I would say an unbeliever cannot enter into a covenant with God - until they become saved.....and that would be the first covenant they enter into. They are actually only "covered" in this covenant by virtue of the faith of the believing spouse.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The person in Matthew 18, if he does not listen, is treated as a heathen or pagan- which means at least temporarily expelled from Christian fellowship. Does this mean spiritually dead? <hr /></blockquote>This is the comment that proves my previous point: If an individual is not a believer, they are spiritually dead!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know it says adultery is the pathway to death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the church declares someone spiritually dead and if you remarry you are sinning until that happens. <hr /></blockquote>Adgirl,
Go back and re-read MM's scripture references. This thread is very long now, so I don't want to reiterate what has already been stated, b/c he covered it adequately earlier. WHen the elders and leaders declare a sinner will not repent, and put them out, and they are considered to be as tax collectors and pagans (total unbelievers). Unbeleivers are spiritually dead, so in essence, a death has occurred to "break" the covenant. ALL covenants require a blood sacrifice (death) to seal (or unseal) them. I believe this is what MM is referring to. And yes, I believe it to be TOTALLY scriptural. That is not to say you must believe that.....but it would be worth studying to learn and find out, wouldn't you say? (I'm not speaking exclusively to you, Adgirl, there are others here who are being quite contrary in accepting these things.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The Bible is the truth. The Bible is also open to many interpretations. So seek GOD for answers. And be at peace knowing you are doing the best YOU can with YOUR life.<hr /></blockquote>TOTALLY AGREE!!! God's Word does not go against Itself......so IF one really wants God to speak to them, wants God to tell them what they should do, all one has to do is ASK HIM!!!

Here's the rub: Sometimes people want what they want, and therefore IGNORE - or misinterpret - God's Word in order to align it with their own beliefs. I believe THIS is where the many interpretations come to play. It's the rare person who follows exactly what God wants them to do. It's too hard, it's not popular, and it often goes against what WE want to do. I know I am guilty.

"The road is narrow, and hard....." we all know this. So the problem of just trusting your own thoughts, beliefs, studies, without filtering it through your church leaders is that this can be dangerous, and lead to lots of wrong interpretations.

Whoa! Big storm. Will send this, then continue later. Don't want to lose all this when the lights blink! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"The road is narrow, and hard....." we all know this. So the problem of just trusting your own thoughts, beliefs, studies, without filtering it through your church leaders is that this can be dangerous, and lead to lots of wrong interpretations.

But the ultimate leader is Jesus. And sometimes it is dangerous to go to church leaders about everything too. They can seek God's will WITH you, but church leaders don't always know best either. Yes, we should do as Matthew 18 says- sin is sin and unrepentant sin should be addressed. But let's not put church leaders on a pedestal. And where does it necessarily say that pagans and tax collectors are spiritually dead? They may not be covered yet with the Holy Spirit but they have the capability of finding Christ.
You asked me to go back to Mortarman's scriptural references. With the utmost respect, I again said around post 50 that his scriptural reference was wrong and it was not acknowledged until around post 110.

ADgirl,

I will address your posts later this evening. But it seems that you are caught up with my mistake on where a certain Scripture was. Now, did I make a mistake on where it was? Yes. I am deployed right now and do not have the access I normally do. There are several passages in the Bible I was referring to. When I wanted to talk about the church court issue, I had mistakenly said that it was in 1st Corinthians, which is a passage about marriage.

did I make a mistake? did it change the point I made? No. Matthew 18 is exactly as I listed. The passage is exactly what I was talking about. So, my mistake on what chapter of the Bible to find it in in no way takes away from the point I was making. If I had CHANGED the passage, or quoted a passage that just didnt exist, then my argument would (and should) fall on deaf ears.

But that is not the case.

In His arms.

MM,
I'm not talking just about where the scripture is. I'm sorry if it came across that way- i can see where it did. .I am talking about where to apply it. It never says in Matthew 18 that you must do this to be divorced, that you must do this or you are still married. Matthew 19:9 clearly says that you can only remarry if your spouse commits adultery- it does not say, but you must take him before the church.
1 Corinthians 7 says you should submit to the unbeliever's request for divorce- if they want to leave, let them.
My point was, that Matthew 18 IS a correct Biblical approach to ALL sin, BUT it is NOT something that says must be done to get a divorce and remarry.
And again, where is the heart in all of this? I firmly think if someone seeks God's will for their lives, the answer will be there, and you are not always going to do something in your life that other people agree on, but you know God does.

from a few pages back...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.<hr /></blockquote>s..Where?<hr /></blockquote>Took me a while to get back to this but I rememeber it from when I was stationed in Saudi.

Here is a link.
In Islam (Submission), the victim a...rvision of a person who knows the Quran.

Mortarman, maybe I misunderstand you, but I never said God is not there to judge? Just that we do not gather to judge others.
Bible says, Judge not lest you be judged. The gathering of two or more in my understanding is to agree in prayer for asking for something, be it healing, financial help, a person being drawn to be saved, what ever the need as long as it is not against God's will or commandments.
NO where did I read together to judge?
God/Jesus is the ultimate and only one to judge and mete out punishment.
As for the taking before church elders or church itself, I believe this to be if the person does not ask forgiveness from you/recongize their wrong for the harm done to you? This is in keeping with accountability to your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Or if you do not forgive one for harming you, they may ask the church in private, then taking before two or more?
Otherwise, we would gather and start gossip? or blaming and judging perhaps wrongly?
I could be misinterpreting, but no way do I want to be the one to join with any others and blame/judge another.
If I do harm and ask a brother or sister to forgive me, they do not, then I can go before the church privately with this person, then two or more meaning elders, than the whole church if necessary. Is this not seeking forgiveness or seeking to right a wrong for the perpetrators soul?
I am willing to learn if I'm wrong, I just like to see the exact scripture in whole to read it.
And compare with the references in other scripture that is usually given.
I use the King James and NIV versions, but bible gateway has many to use also.
Thanks and God bless, I like your post that was just prior also. Right on!
LouLou

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The gathering of two or more in my understanding is to agree in prayer for asking for something, be it healing, financial help, a person being drawn to be saved, what ever the need as long as it is not against God's will or commandments.
NO where did I read together to judge?<hr /></blockquote>Matt. 18:15 - "If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother."
If your brother WRONGS you..........this would be judging against a wrong, wouldn't it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for the taking before church elders or church itself, I believe this to be if the person does not ask forgiveness from you/recongize their wrong for the harm done to you? This is in keeping with accountability to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I could be misinterpreting, but no way do I want to be the one to join with any others and blame/judge another.<hr /></blockquote>The church elders are there to hear about disagreements between "brothers." We are to do this rather than taking it to a civil (UNchristian) court.

And it isn't any old person from the church who are judging. It is the elders, the ones whom God has put in the position of leadership.

JMHO.

From sufdb,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
On another note about the use of the word covenant. First the Bible is not written in english, so I am not sure the exact meanings of marital covenant and other covenants are equivalents in the way you stated (violation of a covenant means death), just cause you use the same english word. <hr /></blockquote>First of all, the word covenant is God's Word. Every covenant God made REQUIRED a blood sacrifice! A covenant is not something a human can enter into with the Almighty God and then decide to just leave it! It's serious business.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> God does not kill anyone (I guess, maybe he does sometimes I dunno, but in general) because they choose (freewill) not to make the leap of faith...you die because you didn't make the leap of faith and went down with the airplane instead of accepting the proffered parachute.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm, not sure about the aforementioned parachute, buuuuut, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I DO believe God can (and sometimes does) cut short the life of a wayward believer, if they continue in sin and refuse to come into repentance. There is scripture to that effect, but it's late, and I have not looked it up. But if anyone has that reference, please post it, otherwise, I will do it tomorrow.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> there was a lot of hey it's not me, this is God's idea. Well that isn't an argument MM. That is why we are having this discussion. We differ on Scriptural interpretation. In the end Christianity is a personal religion, between one and God, and is not about which individual (or even scholar) is a better at making their case with Scripture. In the end every interpretation is wrong, cause none of us (humans) has perfect understanding.<hr /></blockquote>Number one: It is true, none of us humans has it perfectly right, But b/c God wants us to know Him, He has laid it out pretty clearly. All we have to do is take the time to study it. We're free to interpret it ourselves, remembering that we (as fallible humans), usually DO have an "agenda" - we are usually looking for the scriptures to agree with OUR agendas, instead of the other way around.

So to take offense at MM's saying "It's not me, It's GOD's WORD!" really is missing his point (I think). I think he was trying to say, "Go look for yourself! It's all in there. Go, read, and ask the Lord yourself what it is saying." MM, did I get that right? Woudln't want to put words in your mouth......

While I agree, our salvation is personal, our relationship with our Lord is personal, private and special.....I believe the Bible was "put out there" for us to read, to meditate on, to teach and to learn from - together and separately.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God nowhere empowers any humans to declare someone spiritually dead, and that was not the point of the Scriptures you quote in that particular. This still greatly distrubs me as a concept...At the very least it offers no accountability if the church court errs, and they will, they must, it is not a perfect process. <hr /></blockquote>This is precisely the reason we are to choose church elders, deacons (whatever you call them at your church, all have different titles), very carefully. Mistakes can be made if you have set men up in leadership positions who have no business being in that position!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No one can tell someone they are married, should remain married, are divorced, or can divorce...no one. It is a decision made between the individual and God<hr /></blockquote>Well, unfortunately, sufdb, yes, they can! "Someone is married and should remain married...." if they have entered into covenant with a partner before God and agreed to be thus.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will be interested in your comments on when exactly marriage occurs, and why if a marriage is not working like God describes is it still a marriage...and how does that work with oneflesh.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, let's take this discussion there!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have a real problem with the notion....oh la di da, I am dating someone and they are just so wonderful, and after a month they go to a JP and take out a marriage license (or a church, and now they are automatically merged into this oneflesh status...then one comes to find out they made a bad decision, the person is nothing like who they thought they were...ok, so there are consequences to making bad choices...but losing your entire life, being bound to someone against your (now) will...whew, that is a heck of a price to pay for a momentary lapse of good sense.<hr /></blockquote>So - what's your point? That God should just let you OUT of a "bad" decision regarding a covenant you entered into "in the heat of passion?"???? Maybe that's the reason we should consult HIM first, before moving into such a decison.......
And, YES, it can be a "heck of a price to pay...."
BUT, really, sufdb, life is like that, ain't it? I wonder HOW MANY people on this board (or just in general, if we could poll them privately) would admit to having more children (or ANY children) due to "momentary lack of good sense..."
I wonder how many people are "living lives of quiet desperation....." b/c of momentary lack of good sense.........
I wonder how many people live in towns they hate, work at jobs they hate (cause they "decided" not to go to college, or dropped out of HS.....), etc.

People have momentary lapses of good sense all the time, and mess up their lives, s. IF we would take some time and listen to God first, maybe we wouldn't do that so often.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Heck we (and God) know people make dumb choices all the time<hr /></blockquote>True, BUT we don't enter into covenants with God over them. Marriage is a symbol of our relationship with Christ. It's a covenant. It's MOST important to get this right. And even if we don't, then God WILL MAKE IT RIGHT!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Making marriage more important than the well-being of the people in it seems at odds with the Bible in general, God is not about legalism, He is about our well-being.<hr /></blockquote>No, actually, that's NOT what God is about!! He is about reconciling Mankind to Himself, due to our sin, and separation. THAT RECONCILIATION IS SYMBOLIZED THROUGH MARRIAGE. That reconciliation required a covenant between man and God. That covenant required a blood sacrifice, and death. Christ's death on the cross. Therefore, in order to give a human-type example of that kind of sacrifice, men are commanded to love their wives in the same manner, willing to DIE for them. As His children, we are told to DIE TO SELF in order to fulfill His plan for mankind. We DO NOT live to be made happy. WE LIVE TO GLORIFY GOD. He gave us marriage as a wonderful institution for our good pleasure, but ONLY IF WE USE IT TO GLORIFY HIM.

That's why it's vitally important that we realize how we can use that visualization to show the world the kind of self-sacrificing love God has for us/for them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> a marriage which is not a safe healthy nurturing place is NOT God's will for us. <hr /></blockquote>Agreed. BUT, I do not believe divorce is the only viable option!! What if God gave you a "way out?" A way to FIX what is wrong, so your M could be a blessing to both of you? What if He told you how to fix your M so both people would be obedient by staying in covenant, and be blessed, loved, and had more than enough reasons to Glorify God in the process? Wouldn't that be more appropriate than acting "like the world" and just giving up, giving in, walking away, creating heartache, hardship and pain. NONE of which is His Will for His children?

In fact, HE HAS!! He has stated that if we will be obedient, follow His Word, DO NOT break covenants, it will go well with us in this life, and beyond.

I think this is all I had to add, s.

God Bless all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ladyLou:

Bible says, Judge not lest you be judged.
NO where did I read together to judge?
LouLou<hr /></blockquote>LadyLou,I think if you read further down you will see that that passage has been taken out of context. The Bible does not ever say NOT to judge, but not to judge hypocritically.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

That phrase, Judge not lest ye be judged, is probably the most abused passage in the Bible. Of course, Christians are supposed to judge right from wrong. We are commanded to judge righteously:

John 7: 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

P.S. just wanted to add that the idea that we are not supposed to judge right from wrong is straight out the depths of moral relativism [hell]. It is not and never has been a Christian principle. Our prisons are FULL of people who cannot judge right from wrong.

I can't imagine anything that accomodates EVIL more than the premise that good people should stand silent or that it's WORSE to judge than it is to do evil. The old saying "Evil thrives when good men stand silent" comes to mind.

Holy smokes! It's the Inquisition all over again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

now, now, don't be judgemental there, Space! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.

Now, how's THAT for being judgmental? Or not?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long
P.S. I don't think the Bible, particularly the New Testament, is so much a book of rules as a guide 2 personal enlightenment. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:
Holy smokes! It's the Inquisition all over again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

ala Monty Python

Hi All ... Let's ROCK in highband width or lowband width!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> !!!! or Jesus loves all of us !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-rh-

[ July 15, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
[QB]"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.
<hr /></blockquote>I am sure Hitler will like that saying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and it goes on, and on, and on.....oh the horror! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Mel:

Mondo Bizarro! I've no idea where that came from.

Thankfully, Hitler is dead. Too bad he didn't self-immolate be4 the Holocaust.

And Shakespeare never practiced genocide.

2long.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:


And Shakespeare never practiced genocide.

2long.<hr /></blockquote>I guess we should be thankful since he had an attitude like that!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
?<hr /></blockquote>2Long, I said we should be grateful that Shakespeare didn't commit genocide like Hitler since he thought that the only difference between good and bad was one's "thinking." [a license to commit any henious act if there ever was one] I am sure Hitler would agree.

"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.

[ July 15, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Ah. That's what you meant.

However, I don't think Hitler needed any such license. In fact, he thought he was doing the world a favor!

Consider what would happen if the Earth were destroyed 2 make room for that Hyperspace Bypass that Doug Adams talks about in Hitchiker's Guide. Would that be a good or a bad thing? There are something like a hundred billion galaxies in the universe, and each has a few hundred billion stars. If each of these has one or 2 habitable planets, there are... ...a whole Boatload of habitable planets in the universe, probably a lot of them with intelligent life on them.

Whether the Earth were 2 be destroyed or not would be good or bad relative 2 its inhabitants and their thinking making it so. Now, that's obviously an extreme example. Let's go closer 2 home. Like I said on STTSI's "resentment thread" recently, I can't be grateful for the learning I've gotten as a result of my soul searching over the past 18 months if I continued 2 hold on2 the resentment I felt for my W's A. Labeling it and her as "bad" or "wrong" was exactly what kept me from progressing all this time. I quit that crap, and now we're progressing in leaps and bounds!

regards,
-2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Ah. That's what you meant.

However, I don't think Hitler needed any such license. In fact, he thought he was doing the world a favor!

-2long<hr /></blockquote>But that was exactly the license that Hitler took. He thought that good and bad was determined only by him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Labeling it and her as "bad" or "wrong" was exactly what kept me from progressing all this time. I quit that crap, and now we're progressing in leaps and bounds!

<hr /></blockquote>I am glad that worked for you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Like I said on STTSI's "resentment thread" recently, I can't be grateful for the learning I've gotten as a result of my soul searching over the past 18 months if I continued 2 hold on2 the resentment I felt for my W's A. Labeling it and her as "bad" or "wrong" was exactly what kept me from progressing all this time. I quit that crap, and now we're progressing in leaps and bounds!

regards,
-2long<hr /></blockquote>2Long, do you have to call something "bad" good in order to get over your resentment? I mean, aren't some things really just bad? Aren't some things really just wrong? My husband's affair was not only wrong, it was BAD, it was destructive. But I didn't feel the need to change the truth in order to recover from my resentment. I got over my resentment just fine, but I did it without pretending like an affair isn't bad.

I am sorry, I do think an affair is a very bad thing and I would have a hard time living with such a manipulation of the truth. I am glad that you found acceptance that way, but I found acceptance without doing that.

[ July 15, 2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Mel:

"But that was exactly the license that Hitler took. He thought that good and bad was determined only by him."

No, it wasn't. He thought that he was doing good by exterminating what he judged was bad.

ol' 2long should never have posted 2 this thread. Hurts ol' 2long's noodle, it does!

-2long.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Mel:

"But that was exactly the license that Hitler took. He thought that good and bad was determined only by him."

No, it wasn't. He thought that he was doing good by exterminating what he judged was bad.

ol' 2long should never have posted 2 this thread. Hurts ol' 2long's noodle, it does!

-2long.<hr /></blockquote>I don't understand your point of disagreement. It was exactly that. That statement implies that there is no good or bad, only thinking that makes it so. Hilter thought he was doing GOOD. He was doing BAD, but "thought" he was doing good. If there is no standard of good or bad, that is a license to do anything.

wow e, this thread starts with Jen Brown's statement and turns into a debate and then I ask where God is in this and no one knows and now we are talking about Hitler. I think this thread should die a peaceful death. But hey, that is just my humble opinion!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) <hr /></blockquote>On that note, maybe we should put this thread out of its misery.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
if I continued 2 hold on2 the resentment I felt for my W's A. Labeling it and her as "bad" or "wrong" was exactly what kept me from progressing all this time. I quit that crap, and now we're progressing in leaps and bounds!

do you have to call something "bad" good in order to get over your resentment? I mean, aren't some things really just bad? Aren't some things really just wrong? <hr /></blockquote>I think both of these statements is true.

I think there IS "bad" out there - and good out there, and both cross our paths but I think it's important HOW we deal with things, particularly the "bad" things that determines what happens to us.....how it affects us. Which direction it moves us in for our future.

If we allow ourselves to harbor, nurture, feed the feelings of not deserving the "bad" thing that has happened to us, only makes it take on a life of its own, and gives it power over us.

In some ways, it's a lot like this thread!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Could explain why God commands us to forgive each other. Yeah, bad things happen. BUT our reactions to them affect us way more than the "bad thing."

Interesting directions this thread keeps taking....

God Bless,

Good and bad are labels, they are meaningless without context, maybe that is what shakespeare was getting at. And indeed much good or bad is in the eye of the beholder, depends on how narrow the focus is. But I do think there is absolute good and bad, and I think it can be unambiguously defined so as to be clear to anyone at any degree of focus. But that doesn't happen much.

On the other hand maybe shakespeare meant what he said, but if he did then another way of stating his position is that each of us is God, was he a new ager?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) <hr /></blockquote>On that note, maybe we should put this thread out of its misery.

Jen<hr /></blockquote>I has tried 2x ... maybe we all should listen to acaza.com, a christian rock internet radio <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> instead.
-rh-

Indeed rh, indeed.

Or perhaps one of us could do something wildly inappropriate and against MB rules so that the moderator shuts down the thread, lol.

Jen

Rh- don't you see? Your good idea is ignored because people are too fired up on their opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Jen Brown- GREAT IDEA!!! What should we say? I'm in- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (laughing an 'evil' laugh! hahahahahaha)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jen Brown:
Indeed rh, indeed.

Or perhaps one of us could do something wildly inappropriate and against MB rules so that the moderator shuts down the thread, lol.

Jen<hr /></blockquote>Oh I don't know Jen. There are other much longer threads about, the kingdom of carelon has been going on for months and hundreds of pages. Why shut this one down?

Actually I find it interesting that ending the thread has even come up, or that posters have dropped in for no other purpose than to suggest ending it. Why do you suppose that is?

Perhaps it would be safer to talk about waxy buildup or the weather, lest we upset anyone's tender sensibilities with a spirited debate about religion and philosophy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My favorite sink cleanser is Soft Scrub with a fresh lemon scent. What does everyone else prefer? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I prefer Lysol, and I think that people suggested ending it because it went all over the board with the original thread person not getting her answers but getting the thread hijacked instead.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by adgirl48:
I prefer Lysol, and I think that people suggested ending it because it went all over the board with the original thread person not getting her answers but getting the thread hijacked instead.<hr /></blockquote>s...Nope, IMO melody knows why, and I concur. Jen herself noted and encouraged debate at different junctures. Further when and if Jen responds anymore with questions or needs I am confident she will be accomodated. In any event ending the thread also does not get her any answers, so how does that help? Which means of course that isn't the reason. Let me ask you (or anyone) does this thread make you uncomfortable? Does that have anything to do with wanting to end it? What are the real reasons (anyone) wants to end this thread deliberately...as opposed the the usual process which is that threads just die their own natural death. There has to be an agenda, anyone brave enough to actually post their real feelings/reasons?

Sufdb,
Thanks for asking my feelings or opinions. The thread itself does not make me uncomfortable. The only time it makes me uncomfortable is when someone else's opinion is shoved down another's throat or when it gets judgmental. My main beef with the thread, and maybe it would be best for me to stay off of it, is that around post 50 I said that the scripture reference was wrong. No one acknowledged this until around post 110. It was an innocent enough mistake and there is no problem with the mistake itself because the scripture IS in the Bible, it just happened to be in Matthew instead of 1 Corinthians.
Then I added that I wondered where God was in all of this and if people prayed over these things before expressing their opinions that could in fact influence another's life. God is the only source of real truth we have. Other people mean well and can think and pray and give thoughtful answers but in reality it is between you and God. Again, no one acknowledged this post. So I guess my main problem is that not only I, but several others, have gotten looked over in this thread either because people are too hot and heavy into the debate or don't care enough about what someone else says or maybe innocently enough, just don't pay attention or know what to say.
WIth that said, my main concern was just that it turned into a debate about who knows what and turned into a legalism thing instead of a personal decision between you and the Lord.

[ July 16, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

The problem with a thread like this one is that it becomes a preaching podium on religion and not on marriage building.

How is it that TMCM and JL are so good at putting things simply? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think the only thing that this thread proves is that a great many of us are still very, very stuck with the desire to be right rather than happy.

It ceased to be for or about Jen Brown a long time ago, and became a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else, our fellow man included.

A sad state of affairs, indeed.

Thanks for asking my feelings or opinions.

s...u r welcome.

ad...The thread itself does not make me uncomfortable. The only time it makes me uncomfortable is when someone else's opinion is shoved down another's throat or when it gets judgmental.

s...I concur, that should make any well-meaning responsible person uncomfortable. But it is not a reason to end a discussion (except as a personal choice made by each participant).

ad...My main beef with the thread, and maybe it would be best for me to stay off of it, is that around post 50 I said that the scripture reference was wrong. No one acknowledged this until around post 110.

s..I noticed the delay, I suspect it was because the location wasn't too relevant to the issue, long as the Scripture was correct. But I did note your effort to make that correction. Not being a Biblical specialist (in any sense) I didn't comment myself.

ad...Then I added that I wondered where God was in all of this and if people prayed over these things before expressing their opinions that could in fact influence another's life. God is the only source of real truth we have. Again, no one acknowledged this post.

s...I was on that page with you. And said similar things, I am not sure anyone would respond specifically, since it is a postion, and opposing positions are inherently obvious when made. I do think in this kind of venue there is a natural economy of words (both intentional and unintentional), which can be annoying, but is just the way it is.

ad...So I guess my main problem is that not only I, but several others, have gotten looked over in this thread either because people are too hot and heavy into the debate or don't care enough about what someone else says or maybe innocently enough, just don't pay attention or know what to say.

s...Hmm.. maybe you have a "need" for validation (and that is ok). This is one of those things hard to know (or keep straight) because of the numbers of posters, and annonymity of the site. So while it may "feel" neglectful, I choose to think (when happens to me) that most likely I was read and contemplated regardless of anyone specifically saying so. And most likely further responses by folks reflect that likelihood. But for the record I read and contemplated all your posts.

ad...WIth that said, my main concern was just that it turned into a debate about who knows what and turned into a legalism thing instead of a personal decision between you and the Lord.

s...And so you advocate on that issue, if you want. But again, that has nothing to do with taking a proactive stance to "end" a thread deliberately..right?

TMCM...The problem with a thread like this one is that it becomes a preaching podium on religion and not on marriage building.

s...So? Meaning should threads be censored to fit anyones specific notion of relevance? Clearly religion plays a huge role in marriage and cannot be removed from marriage building, so seems fine to have such discussions, until the thread dies it's own natural death. I can see your point (a little) should something completely morph into a pure religion debate, but my sense is most of the religious threads revolve around marital and related issues (like obedience, legalism, authority etc.). Don't see too much discussion over say....um the validity of the shroud of Turing or some such...what do you think?

ad...How is it that TMCM and JL are so good at putting things simply?

s...cause they leave out other relevant factors? just kidding, sometimes simplicity is good, othertimes issues are such that simlicity does not work.

space...I think the only thing that this thread proves is that a great many of us are still very, very stuck with the desire to be right rather than happy.

s....could this post be an example of that focus? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

space...It ceased to be for or about Jen Brown a long time ago, and became a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else, our fellow man included.

s...scratching my head. Tell me, oh tell me pray tell, how does one advocate a positon if they think they are wrong? (assuming one is mentally healthy, and not including devils advocacy). Space the heart and soul of issues oriented debate is passionate belief in your convictions (hopefully with an open mind as well though). It makes no sense any other way. Further, allthough some get off on gratuitious arguing (just for the sake of arguing), I think this process of vigorous debate is how one ascertains what they believe, and whether they should continue to do so.

space...A sad state of affairs, indeed.

s...What other state do you propose? If you refer to Jen, she is quite capable of stating any personal concerns she has, and will be heard (I think)...no harm, no foul.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb - space...I think the only thing that this thread proves is that a great many of us are still very, very stuck with the desire to be right rather than happy.

s....could this post be an example of that focus? <hr /></blockquote>Only if you choose to interpret it that way. I believe all of my posts have been clear in that I respect what you believe, and without reservation grant you that right, even if I don't believe it myself, and only ask for the same courtesy. That same courtesy is what was not forthcoming in a great portion of this thread.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> space...It ceased to be for or about Jen Brown a long time ago, and became a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else, our fellow man included.

s...scratching my head. Tell me, oh tell me pray tell, how does one advocate a positon if they think they are wrong? (assuming one is mentally healthy, and not including devils advocacy). <hr /></blockquote>One doesn't advocate a position one believes is wrong; one allows others to advocate their position with the same respect one expects for one's own position. When this is not allowed, or is dismissed, it becomes a pulpit and not a debate.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Space the heart and soul of issues oriented debate is passionate belief in your convictions (hopefully with an open mind as well though). <hr /></blockquote>This last part is PRECISELY what has been missing in the majority of this thread, and the EXACT REASON I posted this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Space the heart and soul of issues oriented debate is passionate belief in your convictions (hopefully with an open mind as well though).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This last part is PRECISELY what has been missing in the majority of this thread, and the EXACT REASON I posted this.

s...You really really think that space? I don't see it. Does that apply to all here, how about me? My assessement of this thread is that for the most part it has been a polite, open minded discussion of extremely volatile issues.

In any event re the pulpit theory, that is not possible in this venue because no one has to listen....unlike the bully pulpit, or a captive audience of any kind (like an employer, or military authority). This is as free as it can get for an exchange of ideas...right? The only thing one gets accomplished by using this as a pulpit is......... ignored.

Mel:

"My favorite sink cleanser is Soft Scrub with a fresh lemon scent. What does everyone else prefer?"

Today? Twelve molar hydrofluoric acid.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb:

I can see your point (a little) should something completely morph into a pure religion debate, <hr /></blockquote>And it hasn't done so already?

s..I noticed the delay, I suspect it was because the location wasn't too relevant to the issue, long as the Scripture was correct. But I did note your effort to make that correction. Not being a Biblical specialist (in any sense) I didn't comment myself.

The location isn't relevant? This is what especially gets me. I was thinking about this at lunch. When I hear someone quote a Bible scripture I immediately go to the Bible and read it. Doesn't that make sense? On this post, there has been a lot of "talking heads" who have not done their research. Why would you have a discussion about the Bible without looking in the Bible yourself? It DOES matter that the scripture is in Matthew and not in 1 Corninthians. You know why? Because Matthew 18 is talking about ALL sin should go before the church when a Christian is stuck in the sin and not wanting to repent. IT is not specifically addressing marriage. 1 Corinthians 7 is written by Paul and is ONLY talking about Marriage. Matthew 18 never says, you should bring your spouse before the church and if you don't then you aren't really divorced and getting remarried is adultery. Now, how is the church to be held accountable if they do not practice discipline or how is a Christian to be held accountable if they don't follow through with Matthew 18 ? I have no idea. I know that Matthew 18 was the way it was supposed to be. I also know that God sent his son to die on the cross for all sin because He knew we would mess up. I know that God wants us to look to him for answers, and so many people on this board have given their opinion without consulting God in prayer or the BIble they seem to think they know.

As far as my "need for validation" - I don't really think I need that so much, as I need someone to do their research before they start giving opinions on something as important as Christianity and what the Bible says. And everytime I tried to explain that, I got ignored. My beef is not that I got ignored, my beef is that as Christians we are called to know what we are talking about- and I don't think this thread has proved that. I think this thread is definitely a PULPIT where several people have just wanted to shove other opinions down other throats without having all scriptural facts in place.

I think I see a whole lot of very judgemental censuring going on here and that disturbs me terribly. This was a very civil, respectful religious discussion that has become uncivil by those who would inflict their own standards on the rest of us. Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*.

Suddenly we seem to have new standards for threads being forced down our throats by the same folks who are complaining that religion is being forced down their throats. ["became religion debate", "a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else." {I guess it is better to be wrong} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] ummmm, did I miss the MB rule that there are to be NO relgious debates?

I am sorry, but we members have no right to shut down others just because a discussion makes us uncomfortable. Nor are you entitled to a response to your every post, no one gets that. If you don't like the conversation, why not move onto another thread instead of attempting to dictate the behavior of others?

[ July 16, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

2Long - THAT stuff will clean the clock of just about anything! I'd love to hear what you think would be a strong cleaner...grin!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I didn't know suggesting that you check the Bible before you quote it and before you have a discussion on it was judgemental. If so, I guess the shoe fits.
I'm out. I surrender. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mel:

"This was a very civil, respectful religious discussion that has become uncivil by those who would inflict their own standards on the rest of us. Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*."

Well, I was more inclined 2 run like he!! than shut down the thread, myself. I think whether it wound up being "civil" or "respectful" is a matter of opinion. I won't go in2 detail, because there's no "solution" 2 this kind of empassioned argument, but suffice it 2 say that being told repeatedly (here and elsewhere on this 4um) that I'm not "going 2 heaven" because I'm not on someone's subjectively interpreted narrow path, when I know different (heaven is something we can all attain NOW), doesn't attract me much 2 these kinds of discussions. ...and I love talking about religion, politics, ...affairs.

"{I guess it is better to be wrong}"

There is no such thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You knew I couldn't resist THAT one, didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously, I think it's better 2 be enlightened. In some cases, we get that by being "wronged" (ie, our S having an A). For the oppor2nity for enlightenment, I am grateful. But I do hope we never have 2 get there that way again! (I promise 2 "get it this time!")

"] ummmm, did I miss the MB rule that there are to be NO relgious debates?"

Is this a rule? I honestly didn't know if it is. I apologize, after all, it is the Harleys' 4um.

FH:

"2Long - THAT stuff will clean the clock of just about anything! I'd love to hear what you think would be a strong cleaner...grin!"

We used it in a Sed Rocks lab a 2ple decades ago. Had 2 store it in plastic bottles, because it dissolves glass!! We used it 2 dissolve quartz. It would do quite a nice job on porcelain, 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

[ July 16, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by adgirl48:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I didn't know suggesting that you check the Bible before you quote it and before you have a discussion on it was judgemental. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>adgirl, I never said that was judgemental. In fact, I thought you made an excellent point when you said that! I said "YES, ADGIRL!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Melody Lane,
Can we be friends?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

am sorry, but we members have no right to shut down others just because a discussion makes us uncomfortable.
???

I believe that the discussion concerning closing the thread was started because it had gone off-topic and not because people were uncomfortable with the direction it was taking.

and Jen Brown posted;
Or perhaps one of us could do something wildly inappropriate and against MB rules so that the moderator shuts down the thread, lol.
But it was HER thread to begin with, so her (even jokingly) asking to shut it down is very appropriate.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
 I won't go in2 detail, because there's no "solution" 2 this kind of empassioned argument, but suffice it 2 say that being told repeatedly (here and elsewhere on this 4um) that I'm not "going 2 heaven" because I'm not on someone's subjectively interpreted narrow path, when I know different (heaven is something we can all attain NOW),<hr /></blockquote>2Long, but that is a Christian belief. We have a right to express our beliefs, don't we? Or should we be censured from expressing Christina beliefs? We don't believe that anyone should be dragged into heaven against their will. Then it would be HELL. God is a Libertarian God, he likes CHOICE and won't make anyone choose him against their will.

However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there. You can't complain that you aren't going to a heaven when you reject Christian beliefs in the first place.

[ July 16, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:

I believe that the discussion concerning closing the thread was started because it had gone off-topic and not because people were uncomfortable with the direction it was taking.

<hr /></blockquote>I think most threads do wander off topic and thats what makes the discussions so interesting. I would have to say that is more the rule than the exception. It doesn't seem to bother people usually.

[ July 16, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by adgirl48:
Melody Lane,
Can we be friends?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>ALWAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mel:

"However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there."

Hm... I don't think heaven is a strictly Christian belief. And I don't think we should have 2 die 2 get "there."

"You can't complain that you aren't going to a heaven when you reject Christian beliefs in the first place."

I can do anything I want, and so can you. Do I reject Christian beliefs? Not that many. I was raised a Christian, after all. Like I said, way earlier in this thread, I don't think the Bible was intended 2 be a strict rulebook so much as a textbook on enlightenment. ...and a history book. ...and a book of folklore and mythology (and before you jump on me about that, "myth" does NOT mean "untruth", but the opposite).

I honestly don't mean 2 offend anyone, and will cheerfully shut up if you think I'm doing so.

-2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[I think most threads do wander off topic and thats what makes the discussions so interesting. I would have to say that is more the rule than the expection. It doesn't seem to bother people usually.
Usually, yes it does keep it interesting.

However, my reply was to you because you got so upset (for some reason.)
You said;
Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Mel:

"However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there."

Hm... I don't think heaven is a strictly Christian belief. And I don't think we should have 2 die 2 get "there."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>2Long,
And that is your right to believe whatever you want. Just as Christians have every right to believe Christians beliefs. You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. You said earlier that you were offended by those beliefs and I am sorry for that.

Mel:

"You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. "

I did not say that the Bible is mythology. Parts of it are, though. The story of Noah, for example. Noah is the judeo-Christian version of the Babylonian Gilgamesh.

As for absolute truth, I believe that the "truth" of the "moral of the story" or the truth portrayed in the alegories or myths of characters like Noah, or the parables taught by Jesus are absolute, though they may not recount actual events.

-2long

[ July 16, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Mel:

"You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. "

I did not say that the Bible is mythology. Parts of it are, though. The story of Noah, for example. Noah is the judeo-Christian version of the Babylonian Gilgamesh.

-2long<hr /></blockquote>And again, most Christians don't believe that at all and believe the historical data says otherwise.

Mel:

"And again, most Christians don't believe that at all and believe the historical data says otherwise."

Perhaps. I don't think so, though. I know that many Christians do believe that.

What historical data? (we used 2 get "Biblical Archaeology" magazine, but not recently).

-2long

2Long, its been quite a few years since I studied the geological evidence for the flood but suffice it to say, I was convinced of its existence. Especially in light of the fact that the Bible is one of the most historically accurate books we have. Archaeologists regularly use it as a guide in middle eastern archaeological digs.

People,

Let me just say I've been around here (on the boards, I mean) waaaay longer than I ever expected to be...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Having said that, let me add I've seen "disrepectful religious discussions" around here during my time here.

People, this ain't one!!! This thread didn't really get, umm, "disrespectful" till the last page or two......

Jen is getting upset by the direction the thread is taking, and that's her prerogative, since she DID start the thread. If she doesn't want to participate anymore, THAT's her prerogative, too! But listen, everyone else. WHAT is so wrong with having a good, respectful discussion?!?!?!

We can't disagree?!?!?! Is that so terrible?!?!?! Don't ya'll know how to have a good discussion, and disagree with someone else's opinions and not get upset?? Or is it no longer a "good" discussion if someone disagrees with me? SHEESH!!!

Trust me. Sometimes I've seen these threads get REAL ugly. This one hasn't yet. I hope it never does. I've really enjoyed listening, reading and contributing to the discussion.

Just hope I have not offended anyone with my opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mel:

"2Long, its been quite a few years since I studied the geological evidence for the flood but suffice it to say, I was convinced of its existence."

I agree with you about the historical accuracy of the bible. I believe it's accurate 2 note that Noah is the same character as Gilgamesh.

I have a PhD in geology, and there is no geological evidence for a global flood. Period. This does NOT negate the "abolute truths" in the story of Noah.

♥2long

I have a PhD in geology, and there is no geological evidence for a global flood. Period. This does NOT negate the "abolute truths" in the story of Noah.

s...gotta respect a phD, but geology is a Biiiiiggggg field. Anyways I recall reading and watching specials in last few years dealing with large historical flood evidence. A worldwide flood itself may be too literal an interpretation, but a flood affecting a large region, or several regions in closely in time would work, wouldn't it? Also (and I may be just dreaming here) but aren't there some theories regarding the breaching of the straigts of gibralter and createing the mediterranean sea, now that would have been a flood of Biblical proportions, especially if that area was the cradel of civilization that we speak of.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Jen is getting upset by the direction the thread is taking, and that's her prerogative, since she DID start the thread. If she doesn't want to participate anymore, THAT's her prerogative, too! But listen, everyone else. WHAT is so wrong with having a good, respectful discussion?!?!?! <hr /></blockquote>I am not upset by the direction of the thread other than the fact that I have nothing further to contribute to it. I simply am not as well versed in the scriptures as many of you here, so I choose not to continue in the biblical debate. Keep up the discussion if you like!

Oh wait, one niggling little question tugs at my mind as I read the recent posts today though...how does whether there is geological or biblical evidence of a flood relate to marriage building or infidelity or divorce?

Jen

sufdb:

"s...gotta respect a phD, but geology is a Biiiiiggggg field."

Yes it is! Ironically, one of my specialties is catastrophic flooding! My other specialties, without going in2 any detail, pertain directly 2 being able 2 determine the former presence of large bodies of water where they are no longer present.

"Anyways I recall reading and watching specials in last few years dealing with large historical flood evidence. A worldwide flood itself may be too literal an interpretation, but a flood affecting a large region, or several regions in closely in time would work, wouldn't it?"

Yes it would, if there were evidence 2 suggest that they were closely spaced in time. But is it "necessary" 2 invoke multiple floods? After all, the Tigris/Euphrates region WAS the "world" or the center of civilization at the time of the Noah flood. A large flood in that area could easily be characterized as "a worldwide flood" by the inhabitants.

There are flood-related myths in most cultures. Some of them have clear ties 2 historic or even prehistoric events. Meaning, people were in the area at the time of the flood, even if it was a very long time ago, and there might be cultural memories of that event. The Missoula Flood of southeastern Washington State is one such event. It was huge, 2. Lake Missoula was on order of 500 cubic miles in volume, and drained catastrophically when the ice sheet that formed it by damming the Clark Fork River failed suddenly. The flood was huge, but literally a drop in the ocean compared 2 the volume of the oceans. There were several floods (maybe 50 or more), but the last of them happened over 10,000 years ago. There were similar prehistoric floods in many places in the world, notably Alaska, Idaho, the northern Great Plains, Canada, Siberia and the Baltic. Most of these are Pleistocene or early Holocene in age, though.

"Also (and I may be just dreaming here) but aren't there some theories regarding the breaching of the straigts of gibralter and createing the mediterranean sea, now that would have been a flood of Biblical proportions, especially if that area was the cradle of civilization that we speak of. "

This flood has been proposed based on undersea exploration - drilling in2 the submarine sediments in the western Meditteranean. The Mediterranean Sea may have filled catastrophically when the Atlantic Ocean overtopped the land barrier at the Straight of Gibraltar. That was millions of years ago, though. Long before human ancestors arose.

Best regards,
-2long

Jen:

"Oh wait, one niggling little question tugs at my mind as I read the recent posts today though...how does whether there is geological or biblical evidence of a flood relate to marriage building or infidelity or divorce?"

It doesn't! ...sorry. ol' 2long is gone now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-2long

There are flood-related myths in most cultures. Some of them have clear ties 2 historic or even prehistoric events. Meaning, people were in the area at the time of the flood, even if it was a very long time ago, and there might be cultural memories of that event.
But with Noah's flood, there weren't a whole lot of people around afterwards to discuss it and make it a "cultural memory."

Chris:

Clearly, there were enough.

-2long

Well, I personally sat and listened to a scientist talk on the flood. The evidence is in a museum here in Ca. near Laguna beach. Down the southern coast. I can't remember the name of city but will research if. They took the group on field trip there.
They proved that the Grand Canyon was formed over 4 or so days period. The whole canyon!
The layers are not over millions of years or thousands even. They are too similar and show having been formed over days. There was a huge tidal basin covering several states surrounding that area, when they broke, it was with such force it carved it out in days!
And yes, there is more evidence as well!
Evidence of Jericho walls also. Many other biblical events have been proven by findings.
Of course, you can always find a scientist to disagree because many are atheist, agnostics or just want to argue evidence.
But I trust the renown of the ones I listened to and seeing the evidence as well.
Someone has not studied deeply enough into the oceans as well. The huge crevices, cracks, mountains under there show evidence of huge upheavals consistent with openings with water rushing to surface causing global floodings!
Whale bones as well as other marine life fossils found on mountain tops in the world including the United states! Care to explain how a whale got on top of a mountain today?
If the PHD has not seen any evidence, I'd say you've not studied far and wide because it's tremendous.
Of course, you may also have had a teacher who preferred to overlook the factual findings and give only their narrowed view.
A degree does nothing toward the truth unless you've had someone teaching truth and not their own opinion.
BTW, most schools don't want to let Theology in!
Darwins theory is also taught. But he himself made a death bed statement he had done mankind a grave injustice!
Truth is only found by doing the deep research into many areas and not just taking someones word. Seeing with your own eyes also helps! You can't refute something so bold as fact.
LouLou

Okay, so here this thread is taking on a new focus, and that is whether the flood(s) described in the bible really happened, and is there scientific proof, and this obviously has nothing to do with marriage, BUT, 'ol 2long, don't run away yet. I am human, I am curious! I want to hear your PhD thoughts on the formation of the Grand Canyon, etc. Four days???

Jen

LouLou:

Oh heck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Now you got me going! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Understand that I harbor no ill feelings 2 people of faith (more properly "religious faith" because I have faith). We're all down here trying 2 figure stuff out and live honorable lives 2 the best of our abilities. However:

"They proved that the Grand Canyon was formed over 4 or so days period. The whole canyon!"

I've independently "proved" 2 myself that the layers in the canyon walls are as much as 2 or 3 billion years old, and that the canyon itself is relatively "modern", having been carved in the past few million years at most.

"They are too similar and show having been formed over days."

Well, they're certainly not that similar. There are terrigenous as well as marine sediments alternating through time. Most of the Canyon sediments are fine-grained, indicating deep water deposition or long term wind-blown sand accumulation.

"And yes, there is more evidence as well!
Evidence of Jericho walls also. Many other biblical events have been proven by findings."

This is true. But not in the Grand Canyon. Mostly in Iraq.

"Of course, you can always find a scientist to disagree because many are atheist, agnostics or just want to argue evidence."

This is also true. But I think you'll find that MOST scientists are very religious people. And few religions, other than fundamentalist ones, have difficulty reconciling an ancient Earth with their religious beliefs. I consider myself a "spiri2al atheist", though probably inaccurately, but I was raised in a Christian religion. I probably am not even agnostic anymore, but I'm not a "member" of any particular church. Arguing evidence, though? It's ac2ally productive for scientists 2 argue (or debate, to be more precise) their observations and data. It isn't supposed 2 be emotion-based. It isn't for me, at least. The world and all that's in it is just 2 fascinating 2 get bogged down in vindictive arguments.

"But I trust the renown of the ones I listened to and seeing the evidence as well. "

You are entitled.

"Someone has not studied deeply enough into the oceans as well."

Someone? Who? I did.

"The huge crevices, cracks, mountains under there show evidence of huge upheavals"

Yes.

"consistent with openings with water rushing to surface causing global floodings!"

No.

"Whale bones as well as other marine life fossils found on mountain tops in the world including the United states!"

I'm not aware of whale bones on mountains in the US, but there are certainly marine fossils on mountains, including Mount Everest.

"Care to explain how a whale got on top of a mountain today?"

Plate tectonics. The mountain wasn't there when the whale died.

"If the PHD has not seen any evidence, I'd say you've not studied far and wide because it's tremendous."

I've studied far and wide, and there is a tremendous amount of evidence 2 be found. None of it supports a global flood, though.

"Of course, you may also have had a teacher who preferred to overlook the factual findings and give only their narrowed view."

I'm sure we all have. In school and in church.

"A degree does nothing toward the truth unless you've had someone teaching truth and not their own opinion."

True.

"BTW, most schools don't want to let Theology in!"

This isn't so much because it's not a worthwhile thing 2 do as: who's flavor of theology would you propose be taught in schools?

"Darwins theory is also taught. But he himself made a death bed statement he had done mankind a grave injustice!"

This isn't true. Go here for more information: http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/blurbs/darwin-deathbed.html

"Truth is only found by doing the deep research into many areas and not just taking someones word. Seeing with your own eyes also helps!"

This is correct.

"You can't refute something so bold as fact."

True. I don't.

regards,
-2long

2long, You are entitled to your own belief. I still believe what I saw and heard explained.
I'm not a scientist, but I did see the evidence of the Grand Canyon. Like your belief and study there are those still who disagree.
But it made more sense to me with the huge tidal basins breaking loose than millions of years formation since I also believe the earth to be no more than 6,000 yrs old!This of course, has not been proven. So I take the bible as fact and based on the historical period covered there. I do take everything the bible says as the true word of God. God doesn't make mistakes, so he wouldn't trust his word to be translated, written and kept alive by someone who would twist it or delete or change it to suit.
I wish I had a tape of the speech, maps, graphs, geological studies, etc to share here.
But there was proof of formations from bottom to top being consistent with the 4 day period.
Since I read approximately 250 to 300 books a year, it's very hard to recall every book title where I find evidence or someones evidence given. Or the names of people I attend their seminars or speeches.
I digest, keep what matters most, delete the spam and move on to another profound subject.
This may not be a thread on Marriage, but I find it quite fascinating and interesting to read others views.
Without any disrespect for others religion or lack of.
LouLou

P.S. there is so much historical data out there it would take you a year probably to research it all or longer!
Those who have spent their whole lives researching for such data or proof.
In fact, many scientist who were not believers in God, are now due to findings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Something good came from it anyway!
LouLou

Is HIS seconds the same as our seconds ?. Just asking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . It is too slow at plan A/B .... -rh-

ladylou, I have read some of the materials you refer to, unfortuneately for the most part it is not good science...and I am as fundamentalist as you can be. But I also have a brain, that God gave me to use. If the earth is 6000 years old in actual "years", then God has deliberately arranged for geologic evidence to appear billions of years old. He certainly has the power to do so, one can only wonder why....but the fact of the matter is we have applied out brains to uncovering and applying the physical laws that govern the reality we inhabit...and those laws are unequivocal. Further we can apply those laws to our benefit, such as predicting where we will find oil, minerals, fossils and such. Or dating different geologic time periods which help us understand the nature of our biosphere/ecosphere...or identify ancient climatological conditions, magnetic field variations etc. etc. Perhaps God has arranged the enviroment we live in to seem much older so we can learn and apply natural law, I don't know. But whether or not 6000 years = 4 billion years or not is of no consequence...we "know" the ages of things and can apply this knowledge in helpful ways....the real truth will be revealed in due time in another reality.

Hi Jen - I just wanted to stop the geologic clock long enough to see how you are doing and what's been happening with your husband?

Sufdb, Yes, I have a lot of questions when I get there. LOL
That's one reason I'm convinced God will give us instand knowledge. Would take eternity to answer all my ?.
I do know God can make it look anyway he wishes. Such as geological changes to give us Oil, coal, whatever. A thousand years is as a day and vice versa.
LEN

Redhat, Gods timing is nothing like ours as you know. LOL Wouldn't it be nice if we could change the whole universe in days?
In the end, it has nothing to do with us getting there. Just different points of view and many theories.
We can all get the answer with God one day. LOL
LOULOU