Hey ADGirl,

Thanks for joining the fray! I wanted to address your points here. First I want to say that I am not an expert. Over the last year, I have studied, been to counseling, and asked pastors, etc. what the situation is here with marriage, adultery, divorce and remarriage. I have read the Bible over and over as people bring things new to me. And over this, I have found the following information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe that you HAVE to bring it before the church to declare the spouse spiritually dead in order to be divorced in God's eyes. Yes, that is in 1 Corinthians 7 and IS a way. But Matthew 5:32 clearly states that you can divorce your spouse for sexual unfaithfulness. Matthew 19:9 clearly states you can remarry if your spouse committed adultery. And in Proverbs, it says that the way of the adulteress leads down the pathway of death. These are all passages that show that my husband is spiritually dead at this moment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, let's start here. You bring up excellent passages that show when and how a believer is spiritually dead. All of these, and a few more, outline when this happens. The problem here is who decides when a person is spiritually dead? The spouse? What if the adultery was a one time fling while under the influence of alcohol? And the WS is repentant immediately afterwards and comes forward asking forgiveness and grace? Are they spiritually dead? Were they before they asked for forgiveness? The answer is not readily available. We cannot see into another man's (woman's) heart. We dont know if they are spiritually dead. We dont know what is going on. So, there has to be someone that can tell us. The only person that can do that is Jesus Himself. And Jesus has outlined in 1st Cor 7 how He does that. He doesnt say that this is one way to do this. He says that if your brother (sister) sins against you, this is how you take care of it. He doesnt say this is ONE WAY to take care of it. Again, there is no doubt that says what adultery does to a believer. There is no doubt what rebellion does to the believer. But the question still remains...who decides if that person is spiritually dead. Fortunately, Jesus has given us the way to find that out...through the process of 1st Corinthians 7. And this doesnt just apply to adultery. If your brother sins against you, no matter what the sin, 1st Corinthians 7 outlines how to handle it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We were not members of a church at the time of the divorce. I am a member now at an interdenominational church. So how could I have brought my x before a church? I was a Christian, but not a member anywhere.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A Christian church is a Christian church. So, a Methodist who just moved to the area, and decided to start going to the local Baptist church, could go to that church to have this taken care of. And if your husband is a believer, then he will be subject to that church court, in the name of Jesus Christ, even if he had never attended that church. Why is this? Because the church refers to the body of believers. Where does that body meet? In the church.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DID get my husband to go with me to that church a few times, and I did talk to the pastor and his wife about him. But the pastor's wife said that since I had confronted him with the adultery, and then his friend Sean confronted him with it, and then we went to counseling, and then we talked to a Christian couple who went through the same things, and then I asked him to come to church with me and he only would occassionally- the pastor's wife said i had done all I could and so had the others, that he was confronted by Christian witnesses and that since he was not a member of the church that I had done all that could be done, and I was free to move on. I was a little hesitant about this because I felt like the church should have done something, but again, he wasn't a member. And I went through the process as much as possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you went through the first two parts of 1st Corinthians 7. Now, a lot of churches do not want to do this stuff...it is a lot of work! So, what you should have done is find a church that takes its responsibilities seriously. Not just dismiss things as "you have done all you can...get on with your life." My church that myu wife and I was hesitant to get involved. Right after the affair was made known, I took the kids to a different church a few times, and then began to feel comfortable. When I decided to pursue all of this, I had gone to our original church. But they were hesitant. So, I went to the pastor of my new church across town, and they said they would handle it, and they would actually coordinate with my old church, since they knew my wife. Now, my wife had never attended this new church. Added to this, the new church was a different denomination from the old one. But the new one took its responsibilities seriously.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe I am free to remarry. The Bible clearly says adultery is grounds for divorce, and clearly says UNLESS a spouse committed sexual unfaithfulness that remarriage was adultery- but he did. And the Bible again, clearly says that adultery leads down the pathway to death.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And thus you are free to remarry, only in the Lord. You have grounds for divorce in God's eyes. But, do you get to declare the marriage over? Do you decide if he is spiritually dead? Like my scenario above, what if he repented before the divorce? Is he still "dead." You see, it is so hard for us to decide where the dividing line is between a mistake and spiritual death. That is why Jesus has set up the church court, with Him as the head. He says He will be there to direct that court in its decisions. Thus the decisions are right and binding.

You want to move on with your life and remarry? Fine. Then end the marriage first. How do you do that. Well, you dont go down to the courthouse and get the legal divorce. God does not recognize that. That divorce is a legal, worldly divorce. You must do that in order to be lawful. But God's laws say that even with a earthly divorce, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. No one ever ended the marriage.

Can one spouse just end the marriage when they want? Of course not. What God has put together, let no man put asunder. It requires God Himself to end the marriage. And only one way has He defined in the Bible on HOW TO do that.

We have laws in each state on how a divorce happens. Can you just wake up one day and say "My husband cheated on me...I have grounds...I have decided today that I am divorced."? Of course not. There is a process, where a judge renders the verdict. Even though the evidence is overwhelming that you have a right to be divorced, it still requires that you go before the judge and get that legal divorce. Until that happens, no matter what your husband has done, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED!

Well, God has spelled out the same thing in His law. You must go before a judge to have that marriage ended. That judge is the church. When the Bible talks about "Thou shalt not judge," it speaks of judging hypocritically. It is also speaking of judging and how to judge in the place of Christ.

We are to judge. But God has outlined the way to do this. Your husband may be spiritually dead, and even though there is overwhelmeing evidence to the fact, it takes a judge to declare him so.

Last analogy. If your husband was killed in a car accident, when are you no longer married? At the point he stopped breathing? Of course he was dead then. But legally (man's law), when are you no longer married? The answer is when the coroner declares him dead. Until then, according to the law, he isnt dead...and you are still married. Even if he has assumed room tempature!

So, spiritual death is the same thing. He may appear spiritually dead. He may actually be spiritually dead. But until God's judge or coroner (the church) declares him dead, then he is not officially dead...and you are still married.

In His arms.

That is why Jesus has set up the church court, with Him as the head. He says He will be there to direct that court in its decisions.
So is there some sort of "tribunal" in which churches (other than Catholic) decide on a religious divorce?

Or is this something the pastor decides?

ForeverHers:

I just saw this:

"2Long, a discussion of Christian principles between Christians is often going to be "unintelligible" to nonChristians."

Did you think I thought it was unintelligible? I was raised a Christian, though I don't "practice" 2day. No, I find this conversation intelligible, alright. I also find it rather bizarre.

"But, your "advice" to Jen is somewhat scary. You are back to "doing what you feel like doing" regardless of the consequences or the "rightness or wrongness".
Jen, please do not fall into that trap again."

Where in anything I've said, either here or anywhere else in my thousands of posts, have you gotten THIS idea?????????????????????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have followed Jen's story from her very first post here, and have found her character and morality 2 be no "lower" than anybody here, either WS or misguided BS (and I have been "off track" in my own search for healing for much of the past 18 months).

I'm saddened by her continued guilt. She seems 2 want 2 be punished, either by her H or, now, by God. AT some point, I hope that she recognizes the growth she's accomplished, perhaps even 2 the point that she could feel "forgiven" even if she marries someone after a DV.

-2long

MM, so what happens when there is no office of coronor (or equivalent), you remain married to a corpse?

btw, what happens (to your analogies etc.) when there is no body to declare dead?

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Good question sufdb....what if your spouse takes off- you can't bring them before the church then- so the BS just has to pay for the WS wrongdoings?

sufdb,

Excellent questions. And like any analogy, sometimes it doesnt fit perfectly. But let me try to answer this, based on what I have learned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, so what happens when there is no office of coronor (or equivalent), you remain married to a corpse?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The point to this is that you do not get to divorce your spouse on your own accord. You do not decide the conditions. You do not decide whether you have grounds or not. You cannot decide that you are divorced today. It isnt that easy. There is a process set up by God. You must take it to the church (the body of believers). Until then, you are still married...and yes, to a "corpse."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">btw, what happens (to your analogies etc.) when there is no body to declare dead?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, how do we handle soldiers missing in action. While they are still declared MIA, the wife is still married to a live individual (who may be dead, but we dont know it). It isnt until they are declared KIA that the spouse is allowed to get death benefits, etc. And then they are free to remarry as they are now a widow. Now, the soldier might have actually been dead for months or years. But, until he is legally declared dead, then he isnt dead according to the law...and the wife is still married to him. In the case of the church, the analogy fits when the church cannot confront the wayward spouse. It is then up to the church, just as it is up to the state in the legal sense, to take all information at hand to determine whether the spouse is spiritually dead, even in the absence of the spouse. They talk to witnesses and family members. And then deliberate, under the direction of the Holy Spirit. And then render a verdict.

Again, analogies dont always fit 100%. I hope I have at least explained this.

hmmm....the underlying theme here seems to be a conflict between individual self-determination and an external authority over an individual. We all recognize the rule of force, and that a state will enforce it's will on us (even to killing us if necessary). So the right to remarry (in absence) is determined by the state declaring kia, or dead in some other manner (like 911 mia's). But what if someone is simply missing, not presumed dead, one can petition the court for divorce, and it seems you are saying one can petition the church similarly. This neatly closes all the loopholes. I suppose if one is living on a deserted island there is no issue, cause no one to remarry (except the now dead/missing spouse). And if there is anyone else, then that comprises the "state" and or church, so you would seek permission from them? The idea being one is not allowed to make a unilateral decision without some external validation. I dunno MM, you have done a good job of making your case, and closing the loopholes, but your underlying principle troubles me, that being human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. I will have to think on this, but have enjoyed watching the discussion.

1 Corinthians 7 does not talk about the church declaring the spouse dead. I thought that was somewhere in Matthew. I just read 1 Corinthians 7 and did not read it. I did read how an unbeliever who leaves a believer- the believer is not bound. And that if a spouse is dead, the other spouse is free to remarry. But that passage does not say anything about the church governing it, unless I am missing it. I am familiar with the passage Mortarman is discussing, but I thought that was talking about ANY sin and that it was in the book of Matthew. I don't have time right now to find the exact passage but will look into it. However, I do think that sufdb has good points. And Mortarman, you do too- I just don't know how far I would go to agreeing with them. I guess it is true- take what you can use and leave the rest, and respect one another's opinions in the process.

SB,

Thanks for the post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dunno MM, you have done a good job of making your case, and closing the loopholes, but your underlying principle troubles me, that being human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. I will have to think on this, but have enjoyed watching the discussion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course we can make unilateral decisions. My wife made the unilateral decision to commit adultery. She had freewill to do so. But she also knew there were consequences to those actions. You see, many people believe that for us to have true freewill, that God must give up His freewill. And this is not the case. His will is ALWAYS done. Now, we can be a hinderance to it, or a help. But the only person that gets "hurt" in this by not following His guidance, His will, is us. God gave us freewill so we would have choices. But he did not give up His ability to make choices also. He chose to say that there was only ONE WAY to reach him, and that was through His Son. He could have accepted other ways, other choices made by men. But He did not. And being God, He has the right to make that choice, to limit our choices.

Look, you are free to murder your next door neighbor. You have that choice. But understand that when you are locked up and face the consequences of that action, your freewill wasnt taken away. But, the freewill of the victim, the State, etc also must come into play. Thus, you pay the consequences of your freewill.

God has almost the same set-up. YUou have freewill. But so does He. And in His freewill, out of love, He has set conditions, standards, laws, etc. You have the "right" to do as you please. But He has the right to withhold grace and/or punish you for actions He deems are violations.

I hope that helped. I look forward to our continued discussion.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I believe you've got it right. WE DO NOT have the "right" to make unilateral decisions....especially decisions that affect our "One-flesh mate" that we vowed unto God to cherish, love, protect, in sickness & health, good times and bad......" that whole scene again.

What MM has said is good..........

It is not a violation of our free will. We have free will. HOWEVER, every time we go against God's WILL for us, b/c of OUR "free will" - we risk being outside of His umbrella of protection on us. At that point, we leave ourselves open to slings of the devil, the world, our own sin can consume us, and all sorts of evil things await us out in the world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God's commandments which were laid down for us to live under were put in place to save us from a life of sin, pain, devastation and ultimate death. WHY would we continue to RUN from God toward THAT?!?!?!?!

Great discussion, everyone.

This thread really has taken on a life of its own, and I am glad that several of you have been able to engage in a good discussion.

Two quick things you can respond to if you like:

1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)

2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)

Have fun, discuss, I am just curious what your thoughts are on these two points.

Jen

Jen:

Well, *I* don't think so.

...but then, I'm destined 2 fry like a Frito in the Frying Pan of Haydes for my wayward beliefs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

don't mean 2 steer you wrong!

-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>This thread really has taken on a life of its own, and I am glad that several of you have been able to engage in a good discussion.

Two quick things you can respond to if you like:

1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)

2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Jen, We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer. God has placed the government to decide weather the killer is guilty and if so weather to put them in prison or to death. In the case of sin this is a spiritual matter and the Bible clearly states that if a brother does you wrong you are to confront them, if they continue you are to take another with yor and confront again. If that doesn't work you are to take them before the church. The problem is that most churches in this country at least will not take on what the Bible clearly says thier responceability is will not do anything in fear of offending that person and causing that person to leave for good.

The bigest question with a wayword spouse is how long is too long to wait? God has waited until 11:59 for some of his childern to come home to him then they died at 12:00. I can not tell you how long is too long to wait for your h. At this time God is telling me to wait for my w! There have been many times where I have become just exhausted and want to move on; but God continues to tell me to wait, in his word. I also have to remember that even though I think I can't handle anymore God will never ask me to do anything that He feels I can't handle. Just remember Jen that there are a lot of people on this board that are praying for you! Smiaj

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SMIAJ:

i Jen, We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer. God has placed the government to decide weather the killer is guilty and if so weather to put them in prison or to death. ]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SM, I think you are confusing legal judgement with moral judgement. The courts are in place to determine LEGAL guilt and render legal judgement based on the law. That is an entirely different matter from judging sin. Christians most certainly are called to judge sin according to God's standards. They are called to judge right from wrong.

A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement."

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Jen:

Well, *I* don't think so.

...but then, I'm destined 2 fry like a Frito in the Frying Pan of Haydes for my wayward beliefs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Naw, I am sure that God plans on dragging you into heaven against your will, 2Long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[oh wait! then heaven would be hell!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

MM..Of course we can make unilateral decisions. My wife made the unilateral decision to commit adultery. She had freewill to do so. But she also knew there were consequences to those actions.

s...That is not what I meant, I wasn't really clear enough. If all freewill means is ignoring external constraints on your choices (and suffering consequences), it is not freewill (it is disobedience). For freewill to make any sense the individual must have the means within themself to make acceptable unilateral decisions. Your argument does not allow this decision path, but makes each of us subservient to the will of other wo/men. That is unacceptable for an individualistic species, it is more akin to group species (such as insects). If we had the means (and we do) to determnine God's will for us, then freewill applies. Since God specifies our relationship is personal and cannot be abridged by anyone, that would seem to cast into question your arguements about absolutely needing external validation for our decisions. You argue from a standpoint of perfection. That being a church body will never err, will not have any personal agendas, etc. etc. That is clearly impossible. The ultimate authority in our assessment of choice (if freewill exists) must be the individual.

MM...Look, you are free to murder your next door neighbor. You have that choice. But understand that when you are locked up and face the consequences of that action, your freewill wasnt taken away. But, the freewill of the victim, the State, etc also must come into play. Thus, you pay the consequences of your freewill.

s...I have no problem with the concept of consequence...whether it arise from a choice to murder, or a choice to give over your personal choice to a church tribunal.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
human beings are not able to make unilateral decisions, that is a violation of freewill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lupo..Yes, I believe you've got it right. WE DO NOT have the "right" to make unilateral decisions....especially decisions that affect our "One-flesh mate" that we vowed unto God to cherish, love, protect, in sickness & health, good times and bad......" that whole scene again.

s...Are you speaking of a moral code (choice), or an inherent capacity (the ability to do something). I am speaking of right in the latter sense, no value judgement implied, substitute the word capacity if right is to bothersome.

lupo..It is not a violation of our free will. We have free will. HOWEVER, every time we go against God's WILL for us, b/c of OUR "free will" - we risk being outside of His umbrella of protection on us. At that point, we leave ourselves open to slings of the devil, the world, our own sin can consume us, and all sorts of evil things await us out in the world.

s...sounds about right to me.

lupo...God's commandments which were laid down for us to live under were put in place to save us from a life of sin, pain, devastation and ultimate death. WHY would we continue to RUN from God toward THAT?!?!?!?!

s...Don't know. But I do know some of the confusion arises over conflicting opinions about God's will....especially when "I" am telling "YOU"what His will for you is. I don't think anyone can do that.

jen..1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?"

s...Who else is available?

Everyone, this has been a great discussion. I am enjoying it.

First, let me get to Jen's questions.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. "Who are we to decide what God would judge to be a sin?" (Quote from the movie "The Scarlett Letter", which I watched today)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Christians are supposed to judge sin. As a matter of fact, when the end comes, we will sit with Christ in judgment of those that did not follow Jesus, and those angels that fell. We are to judge a righteous judgment, as was stated above. The Bible tells us to render this judgment, but how do we do this? As I have outlined before, the basis of a righteous judgment is through the Holy Spirit. We can make such a judgment because we are guided by God Himself. Now, can we make mistakes? Of course, when we do not listen, bring in personal agendas...and generally do not judge righteously.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. So, if I have understood the general attitude of most of you posting on this thread, if a woman cheats on her husband, repents, asks for forgiveness from God and her H, and yet her H refuses to forgive her or take her back or start Dv proceedings to end his marriage to her, and this woman files for divorce, divorces her H and years later remarries, she is a sinning adulteress? (Keep in mind this woman is NOT Catholic.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, the answer is YES. Now, I say that is unfortunate because the BS did not deserve the behavior of the WS. Unfortunate because the pain caused by the WS is such that they will never know the depths of despair that they have caused. And unfortunate that some BSs are forced into a dilemna such as you just laid out.

But, make no mistake. God has said His peace about marriage, adultery, divorce, and remarriage. That is why it is said in the New Testament, when these conditions of marriage were outlined, that it is better to stay unmarried. This is NOT easy, as all of us here can attest.

What is marriage all about? It is basically about bringing to Earth the relationship we have with Christ. Ephesians details some of the responsibilities of the wife and husband. The wife is to treat her husband as we treat Christ. The husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church (believers). Now, we are flesh. We cannot be perfection. We make mistakes, even horrendous ones.

When your spouse committed adultery, who did he/she sin against? You? Sure. Your children and or family? Yep. God? YES! One thing my pastor told me when I first counseled with him after finding out about my wife's affair was that she wasn't leaving me, she wasn't rejecting me...she was rejecting Christ.

Christ gave His life for my wife. He paid the price so she wouldnt have to. As a believer, she knows this. When she walked away from our marriage, she walked away from Christ's sacrifice and basically said "I dont care what you did, I am hurting, and I will do this my way."

Now, if you gave your life for someone, and then they act in a way that tells you that they could care less, how would that make you feel? Hurt? Do you see where I am going here?

Your spouse sinned against you and hurt you. But you never gave your life for them. Christ did. And your spouse walked away from Him.

But guess what? Even though they have walked away, if that WS asks for forgiveness and repents, Christ will forgive and accept them home. ALWAYS! The Bible says that if we do not forgive, He will not forgive us.

Our relationship with Christ is THE most important relationship we have. So, if our spouse, before they are no longer our spouse, asks for forgiveness and has repented, we are called to do as Christ does for us everyday.

Never ask for what you deserve. What we DESERVE is to burn in hell for our sins. But God has provided grace, based on love. He has paid the price for our transgressions, so that we will not get what we deserve.

Do you think that the sins you committed today are any different than the sins that our spouses committed? All sin has the same result...death. No matter how big, nor small.

Our pain is real. But so was Christ's. The betrayal of our love was real, but so is the betrayal of Christ's love that our spouses committed.

And Christ will forgive them and restore them. Can we possibly do any different?

It is hard to do so. Believe me, I am in recovery and many days, it is a trial to move forward, to try to get over what my wife has dones. But God has promised us strength, blessings, etc. if we will follow His intruction, His will.

I feel His hand on my shoulder, even today. I am on a two week deployment. The last time I was deployed (for 7 months), my wife entered into an adulterous relationship. How much pain do you think I feel as I am apart for the first time since this happened? How many triggers do you think are coming up? But I just kneel and ask God for the protection and strength that He promised. And He does.

Want some proof? I was talking to my wife last night. Anyone that has followed myh story knows that my wife has great anger for my family, especially my mother, because of the things they did while I was gone to Bosnia (they hired PIs, etc to uncover her affair). She has said barely a sentence to them since I got back.

Until lately. The last few weeks, during my sons baseball games, I have found my mom and my wife in discussions about the kids, her job, etc.

Another issue that my wife has had is going to church. She really has been angry at God ( a separate thread is needed for that). But lately, she has talked about going to church. Well, our old church is filled with people that also undermined her affair.

Now with all that background, my wife tells me last night that she has been talking with my mother the last few days, and they are going to church together this Sunday...to our old church.

CHRIST CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING! His wounds of His death are still on him. The scars are still there. And so will be our scars. But we can be healed. We can bring our spouses home again and find love between us that defies logic.

But, it is all about Him. We do it His way, then it will work out for our good.

In His arms.

We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.

so MM while the discussion goes on I am curious about something, what is marriage to you? (Not looking for a religious dissertation). Do you find your motivation in following God's rules (as you interpret them), and who/what/etc. your wife is, of less importance. In other words the quality of your marriage is not a factor in how you view marriage, it would make no difference who you were married to, you would continue the arrangement, even if you lived a lifetime in an empty, lonely marriage? All this theory is fine, but you know as well as I, that millions of people live in empty, neglectful, lonely marriages....won't even go into emotional, verbal abuse....(will accept we all agree physical abuse is a legitimate get out free card). Do they just endure for a lifetime? There are no other standards, just the very instant, nanosecond you agree (to whatever passes for social recognition of marriage in ones culture), you are "yoked" for your entire life?

One misstep, one mistake, decieved by the one pursuing you, ignorant yourself of proper mate selection, whatever, you are done? Your life (on earth as a partner in a healthy happy marriage) is done, ended, fini, never to be? Suppose you are some 15 (age of consent in most cultures) 16, 17 whatever yo, and you marry a complete loser, you are bound to them, must service them, must give them children etc. etc. no matter how undesireable the marriage is. And you must do this for the rest of your life......why?

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

We are ALL sinners and betrayers, and acknowledging it with humility is a step towards God.