ADgirl,

I will address your posts later this evening. But it seems that you are caught up with my mistake on where a certain Scripture was. Now, did I make a mistake on where it was? Yes. I am deployed right now and do not have the access I normally do. There are several passages in the Bible I was referring to. When I wanted to talk about the church court issue, I had mistakenly said that it was in 1st Corinthians, which is a passage about marriage.

did I make a mistake? did it change the point I made? No. Matthew 18 is exactly as I listed. The passage is exactly what I was talking about. So, my mistake on what chapter of the Bible to find it in in no way takes away from the point I was making. If I had CHANGED the passage, or quoted a passage that just didnt exist, then my argument would (and should) fall on deaf ears.

But that is not the case.

In His arms.

MM,
I'm not talking just about where the scripture is. I'm sorry if it came across that way- i can see where it did. .I am talking about where to apply it. It never says in Matthew 18 that you must do this to be divorced, that you must do this or you are still married. Matthew 19:9 clearly says that you can only remarry if your spouse commits adultery- it does not say, but you must take him before the church.
1 Corinthians 7 says you should submit to the unbeliever's request for divorce- if they want to leave, let them.
My point was, that Matthew 18 IS a correct Biblical approach to ALL sin, BUT it is NOT something that says must be done to get a divorce and remarry.
And again, where is the heart in all of this? I firmly think if someone seeks God's will for their lives, the answer will be there, and you are not always going to do something in your life that other people agree on, but you know God does.

from a few pages back...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">s..Where?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Took me a while to get back to this but I rememeber it from when I was stationed in Saudi.

Here is a link.
In Islam (Submission), the victim a...rvision of a person who knows the Quran.

Mortarman, maybe I misunderstand you, but I never said God is not there to judge? Just that we do not gather to judge others.
Bible says, Judge not lest you be judged. The gathering of two or more in my understanding is to agree in prayer for asking for something, be it healing, financial help, a person being drawn to be saved, what ever the need as long as it is not against God's will or commandments.
NO where did I read together to judge?
God/Jesus is the ultimate and only one to judge and mete out punishment.
As for the taking before church elders or church itself, I believe this to be if the person does not ask forgiveness from you/recongize their wrong for the harm done to you? This is in keeping with accountability to your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Or if you do not forgive one for harming you, they may ask the church in private, then taking before two or more?
Otherwise, we would gather and start gossip? or blaming and judging perhaps wrongly?
I could be misinterpreting, but no way do I want to be the one to join with any others and blame/judge another.
If I do harm and ask a brother or sister to forgive me, they do not, then I can go before the church privately with this person, then two or more meaning elders, than the whole church if necessary. Is this not seeking forgiveness or seeking to right a wrong for the perpetrators soul?
I am willing to learn if I'm wrong, I just like to see the exact scripture in whole to read it.
And compare with the references in other scripture that is usually given.
I use the King James and NIV versions, but bible gateway has many to use also.
Thanks and God bless, I like your post that was just prior also. Right on!
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The gathering of two or more in my understanding is to agree in prayer for asking for something, be it healing, financial help, a person being drawn to be saved, what ever the need as long as it is not against God's will or commandments.
NO where did I read together to judge?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matt. 18:15 - "If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother."
If your brother WRONGS you..........this would be judging against a wrong, wouldn't it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the taking before church elders or church itself, I believe this to be if the person does not ask forgiveness from you/recongize their wrong for the harm done to you? This is in keeping with accountability to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I could be misinterpreting, but no way do I want to be the one to join with any others and blame/judge another.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The church elders are there to hear about disagreements between "brothers." We are to do this rather than taking it to a civil (UNchristian) court.

And it isn't any old person from the church who are judging. It is the elders, the ones whom God has put in the position of leadership.

JMHO.

From sufdb,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
On another note about the use of the word covenant. First the Bible is not written in english, so I am not sure the exact meanings of marital covenant and other covenants are equivalents in the way you stated (violation of a covenant means death), just cause you use the same english word. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, the word covenant is God's Word. Every covenant God made REQUIRED a blood sacrifice! A covenant is not something a human can enter into with the Almighty God and then decide to just leave it! It's serious business.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God does not kill anyone (I guess, maybe he does sometimes I dunno, but in general) because they choose (freewill) not to make the leap of faith...you die because you didn't make the leap of faith and went down with the airplane instead of accepting the proffered parachute.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, not sure about the aforementioned parachute, buuuuut, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I DO believe God can (and sometimes does) cut short the life of a wayward believer, if they continue in sin and refuse to come into repentance. There is scripture to that effect, but it's late, and I have not looked it up. But if anyone has that reference, please post it, otherwise, I will do it tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there was a lot of hey it's not me, this is God's idea. Well that isn't an argument MM. That is why we are having this discussion. We differ on Scriptural interpretation. In the end Christianity is a personal religion, between one and God, and is not about which individual (or even scholar) is a better at making their case with Scripture. In the end every interpretation is wrong, cause none of us (humans) has perfect understanding.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Number one: It is true, none of us humans has it perfectly right, But b/c God wants us to know Him, He has laid it out pretty clearly. All we have to do is take the time to study it. We're free to interpret it ourselves, remembering that we (as fallible humans), usually DO have an "agenda" - we are usually looking for the scriptures to agree with OUR agendas, instead of the other way around.

So to take offense at MM's saying "It's not me, It's GOD's WORD!" really is missing his point (I think). I think he was trying to say, "Go look for yourself! It's all in there. Go, read, and ask the Lord yourself what it is saying." MM, did I get that right? Woudln't want to put words in your mouth......

While I agree, our salvation is personal, our relationship with our Lord is personal, private and special.....I believe the Bible was "put out there" for us to read, to meditate on, to teach and to learn from - together and separately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God nowhere empowers any humans to declare someone spiritually dead, and that was not the point of the Scriptures you quote in that particular. This still greatly distrubs me as a concept...At the very least it offers no accountability if the church court errs, and they will, they must, it is not a perfect process. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is precisely the reason we are to choose church elders, deacons (whatever you call them at your church, all have different titles), very carefully. Mistakes can be made if you have set men up in leadership positions who have no business being in that position!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one can tell someone they are married, should remain married, are divorced, or can divorce...no one. It is a decision made between the individual and God</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, unfortunately, sufdb, yes, they can! "Someone is married and should remain married...." if they have entered into covenant with a partner before God and agreed to be thus.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be interested in your comments on when exactly marriage occurs, and why if a marriage is not working like God describes is it still a marriage...and how does that work with oneflesh.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, let's take this discussion there!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a real problem with the notion....oh la di da, I am dating someone and they are just so wonderful, and after a month they go to a JP and take out a marriage license (or a church, and now they are automatically merged into this oneflesh status...then one comes to find out they made a bad decision, the person is nothing like who they thought they were...ok, so there are consequences to making bad choices...but losing your entire life, being bound to someone against your (now) will...whew, that is a heck of a price to pay for a momentary lapse of good sense.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So - what's your point? That God should just let you OUT of a "bad" decision regarding a covenant you entered into "in the heat of passion?"???? Maybe that's the reason we should consult HIM first, before moving into such a decison.......
And, YES, it can be a "heck of a price to pay...."
BUT, really, sufdb, life is like that, ain't it? I wonder HOW MANY people on this board (or just in general, if we could poll them privately) would admit to having more children (or ANY children) due to "momentary lack of good sense..."
I wonder how many people are "living lives of quiet desperation....." b/c of momentary lack of good sense.........
I wonder how many people live in towns they hate, work at jobs they hate (cause they "decided" not to go to college, or dropped out of HS.....), etc.

People have momentary lapses of good sense all the time, and mess up their lives, s. IF we would take some time and listen to God first, maybe we wouldn't do that so often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heck we (and God) know people make dumb choices all the time</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, BUT we don't enter into covenants with God over them. Marriage is a symbol of our relationship with Christ. It's a covenant. It's MOST important to get this right. And even if we don't, then God WILL MAKE IT RIGHT!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Making marriage more important than the well-being of the people in it seems at odds with the Bible in general, God is not about legalism, He is about our well-being.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, actually, that's NOT what God is about!! He is about reconciling Mankind to Himself, due to our sin, and separation. THAT RECONCILIATION IS SYMBOLIZED THROUGH MARRIAGE. That reconciliation required a covenant between man and God. That covenant required a blood sacrifice, and death. Christ's death on the cross. Therefore, in order to give a human-type example of that kind of sacrifice, men are commanded to love their wives in the same manner, willing to DIE for them. As His children, we are told to DIE TO SELF in order to fulfill His plan for mankind. We DO NOT live to be made happy. WE LIVE TO GLORIFY GOD. He gave us marriage as a wonderful institution for our good pleasure, but ONLY IF WE USE IT TO GLORIFY HIM.

That's why it's vitally important that we realize how we can use that visualization to show the world the kind of self-sacrificing love God has for us/for them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> a marriage which is not a safe healthy nurturing place is NOT God's will for us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. BUT, I do not believe divorce is the only viable option!! What if God gave you a "way out?" A way to FIX what is wrong, so your M could be a blessing to both of you? What if He told you how to fix your M so both people would be obedient by staying in covenant, and be blessed, loved, and had more than enough reasons to Glorify God in the process? Wouldn't that be more appropriate than acting "like the world" and just giving up, giving in, walking away, creating heartache, hardship and pain. NONE of which is His Will for His children?

In fact, HE HAS!! He has stated that if we will be obedient, follow His Word, DO NOT break covenants, it will go well with us in this life, and beyond.

I think this is all I had to add, s.

God Bless all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ladyLou:
<strong>
Bible says, Judge not lest you be judged.
NO where did I read together to judge?
LouLou</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LadyLou,I think if you read further down you will see that that passage has been taken out of context. The Bible does not ever say NOT to judge, but not to judge hypocritically.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

That phrase, Judge not lest ye be judged, is probably the most abused passage in the Bible. Of course, Christians are supposed to judge right from wrong. We are commanded to judge righteously:

John 7: 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

P.S. just wanted to add that the idea that we are not supposed to judge right from wrong is straight out the depths of moral relativism [hell]. It is not and never has been a Christian principle. Our prisons are FULL of people who cannot judge right from wrong.

I can't imagine anything that accomodates EVIL more than the premise that good people should stand silent or that it's WORSE to judge than it is to do evil. The old saying "Evil thrives when good men stand silent" comes to mind.

Holy smokes! It's the Inquisition all over again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

now, now, don't be judgemental there, Space! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.

Now, how's THAT for being judgmental? Or not?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long
P.S. I don't think the Bible, particularly the New Testament, is so much a book of rules as a guide 2 personal enlightenment. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Holy smokes! It's the Inquisition all over again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

ala Monty Python

Hi All ... Let's ROCK in highband width or lowband width!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> !!!! or Jesus loves all of us !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-rh-

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
[QB]"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure Hitler will like that saying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and it goes on, and on, and on.....oh the horror! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Mel:

Mondo Bizarro! I've no idea where that came from.

Thankfully, Hitler is dead. Too bad he didn't self-immolate be4 the Holocaust.

And Shakespeare never practiced genocide.

2long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>

And Shakespeare never practiced genocide.

2long.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess we should be thankful since he had an attitude like that!

?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, I said we should be grateful that Shakespeare didn't commit genocide like Hitler since he thought that the only difference between good and bad was one's "thinking." [a license to commit any henious act if there ever was one] I am sure Hitler would agree.

"There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so" - Bill Shakespeare.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Ah. That's what you meant.

However, I don't think Hitler needed any such license. In fact, he thought he was doing the world a favor!

Consider what would happen if the Earth were destroyed 2 make room for that Hyperspace Bypass that Doug Adams talks about in Hitchiker's Guide. Would that be a good or a bad thing? There are something like a hundred billion galaxies in the universe, and each has a few hundred billion stars. If each of these has one or 2 habitable planets, there are... ...a whole Boatload of habitable planets in the universe, probably a lot of them with intelligent life on them.

Whether the Earth were 2 be destroyed or not would be good or bad relative 2 its inhabitants and their thinking making it so. Now, that's obviously an extreme example. Let's go closer 2 home. Like I said on STTSI's "resentment thread" recently, I can't be grateful for the learning I've gotten as a result of my soul searching over the past 18 months if I continued 2 hold on2 the resentment I felt for my W's A. Labeling it and her as "bad" or "wrong" was exactly what kept me from progressing all this time. I quit that crap, and now we're progressing in leaps and bounds!

regards,
-2long