well jen, very clearly stated. MM this is the real issue, marriage takes two people on the same page, there are lots of things that can interfere with that working right. Freewill means we only have control over our end of things, and that means we are empowered to make choices (much as you described God doing with his freewill) based on others freewill choices. Making marriage an absolute, abrogates that principle. You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved. And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices... I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us). You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.). Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.

Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave. I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice. Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what. The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them? It should not be a choice made lightly (divorce or marriage), but they are choices.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

There are a couple of good posts here, and I will respond to them shortly. But I wanted to respond to Jen first.

Jen,
My posts were not meant to hurt you. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH! I understand the pain and the wanting a life free of this mess. Let me get to your posts and explain what I have been talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been holding my tongue for quite some time. I've had it, I have flat out had it. Here's what I really think:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it will take my whole life????!!!!??? Call me selfish, call me an adulteress, call me a heathen, call me what you like, judge me how you like, but I REFUSE to sit by for my whole life waiting for my H to have a revelation and suddenly decide I am worthy of him treating me like his wife again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, please settle down. I am not calling you anything. I am simply explaining what I have learned about God's word and what He wants for us. My concern right now after reading this is that you may be missing out on healing, and maybe even the healing of your husband becoming the husband he should, precisely because you refuse to do things that God has asked you to do. It may be about your will versus God's will. About whether or not you trust Him. Remember the history in the Bible where a man was told to sacrifice his son. When he went to do it, God stopped him. He didnt refuse God's will. He said "Your will be done, even if that is the loss of my son." And because of his faith, his son was spared and his relationship with God grew.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as I know, we're only here once, and if my H won't wake up and choose to treat me as his wife again, I will divorce him, I want to find someone else to love and have kids with, and I want to live a happy Christian life with that other man and the kids we may get to have.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are precisely the reasons my wife got into an adulterous relationship, and wanted to leave the marriage. We were having trouble, and I wasnt being the husband she deserved. But she committed adultery, no matter what her pain or reasons for doing it. And the Bible spells out what happens when we do things on our own, outside of the will of God. You say you will divorce him and find your owjn happiness. God says you will only find happiness through him. Who is right? You both cant be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think God wants me to live in misery waiting for a man who doesn't want me and can't find forgiveness in his heart to come back to me or to take me back as it were.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you are correct. He does not want you to have to live this way. And maybe the way things are right now are the consequences that God said would happen if someone strays from their marriage. That is for you to find out through prayer and Bible study. But, your husband should not be treating you this way. And he will be dealt with by Christ, if he is a believer. You have to concentrate on YOUR relationship with Christ. You willing to sacrifice or strain your relationship with Christ in order to find some sort of happiness with another man? Come on, you know that there is no man on this Earth that can match the love of Christ. Dont accept second best, Jen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Besides, divorce is allowed for in the case of infidelity. Sure it was originally my infidelity, but my H's obsession with porn, and his unnaturally close friendship (it may be more) with two female friends sure could be chalked up as infidelity as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, infidelity is a reason for divorce. But not for the WS. A spouse cannot go out and commit adultery so they can divorce. The choice for a biblical divorce is in the hands of the BS. Yes, porn is a form of adultery, of which I am guilty (one of the problems my wife was having with me before the A). And you may have grounds. So do as 1st Corinthians 7 says and take him before the church. Tell your pastor that he isnt meeting your needs, not being an adequate husband. Tell him that he continues with porn. The church will then confront your husband. Then either he will either repent, or he will continue on the path he is on. If he continues, then the church will declare him spirituall dead...and you are free to divorce and remarry (only to another believer).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I may burn in hell for remarrying, but I sure as heck am not going to sit and pine and pray for my H to come back to me for all of my life. Forget it. There have to be limits to the suffering we must endure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, if you are a believer, you are not going to burn in hell. Christ has paid the price of your sins. Hell is not in your future. But hell on Earth could be. You do not have to pray for all of your life for your husband to come back. When reading the Bible, it says marital unfaithfulness. But the original translation speaks of immoral behavior. That includes (as spelled out later in Scripture) drunkeness, a husband that wont provide for his family, etc. Desertion is one of them. But the point is that if you have grounds for a divorce, if your husband continues to refuse to be the husband he is supposed to be...then take him before the church. If he still wont obey, then he is in rebellion to God and then he is put out of the church and treated as if he is a sinner or tax gatherer. Spiritually dead. And then you are legally and morally able to divorce. Jen, there is a way to get your husband back or divorce. You do not have to put up with this throughout your life. But please please...do not due it Jen Brown's way. Do it God's way, and you will not regret it. Like I said, my wife was lonely and upset. But she never took me before the church. She did it her way. And we will live with the consequences of that way for the rest of our lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this statement hurts, Jen. You think this is easy. Go back to last October and Novemebr to my threads, when I thought my marriage was over and was mad at God for me having to go through all of this pain, when it was her that was disobeying. And then I posted exactly what I am telling you here. I let me mind and what I know aboutthe Lord override my emotions. Whether or not my wife is with me or not, I would still pursue His will. Look back right before she came home seeking reconciliation. I had already started the process at the church to have her confronted. I was done with the marriage and wanted out. But I was going to do it God's way, not MM's way. A week later, God flipped things upside down and brought my wife home.

I believe in oart that she came home due to my obedience and my trying to do things, even divorce, God's way. I think part of that was a test for me. That I neded to have faith that if I did it His way, that it would all work out. And it did.

Jen, I am sensing (and I apologize if I am wrong) that this may still be a faith test for you. That God has still not allowed your husband to move forward because he is still trying to get you to let go and let Him take control. You have to get to the point where you say "Your will, God...no matter what."

I dont say these things because it is easy. God's way sometimes is exactly opposite of human nature. It isnt easy...but this is all very simple. If your husband wont be the husband that God demands, take him before the church. Have the church deal with him, IAW 1st Corinthians 7. If he doesnt repent, then you will be free to divorce and remarry.

Any other way, Jen...you invite disaster because you will be doing it Jen's way.

I hope that I have not hurt you and I am praying for peace in your life. Sometimes the truth hurts. I am sorry if you are hurting. I am not sorry for the truth.

Please keep talking here. There IS a way for you to be happy again. It is all outlined in His word.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

SB,

Again, thanks for the continued to discussion. Everyone here is giving me things that I need to think, pray and study over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM this is the real issue, marriage takes two people on the same page, there are lots of things that can interfere with that working right. Freewill means we only have control over our end of things, and that means we are empowered to make choices (much as you described God doing with his freewill) based on others freewill choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this wholeheartedly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Making marriage an absolute, abrogates that principle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen. Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be. So the object of this is the church must subject its will to the Will of God. Christ is there and able, through the church, to render judgments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not. He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder. We can do it his way...or let our actions have consequences. The church doesnt decide who you sleep with, although I know of some churches that will not marry an unbeliever to a believer. But your choice in mate is yours. Now if you are a believer, God does say dont marry an unbeliever. If you do, your actions will have consequences (usually the unbeliever pulls the believer away from their relationship with God).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them. Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them. My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM. God's way is always right for us. Our way is too often the wrong way and only brings pain. You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog. There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there. The problem with this approach is that it is gross disrtespect of God. I'll do what I want and God just has to stand by and accept it. No He doesnt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins. If we chose not to accept or live by that covenant, then the penalty is death (hell).

Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured. And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing. When you marry, He joins you together. If you marry an unbeliever against His will, He still joins you together. That is why He warns against doing so. Because now you are bound to someone for life that does not know Jesus.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It should not be a choice made lightly (divorce or marriage), but they are choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Choices, yes. But when we chose to do so outside His will, in a way not prescribed by Him...consequences will happen. And if we want to do it our way, He will let us. And He will let us reap what we sow.

In His arms.

WOW!! What a thread!

Sheryl.....my dear, dear sister Sheryl. Please do not be offended. I get the distinct impression that you are offended by the suggestion that you should be evangelizing, if you are a born-again christian. But that you do not want to. That that would be "pushing" yourself on someone else's beliefs, and you do not believe you should do that?

Unfortunately, it is true. We ARE to be evangelizing any and every chance we get! Why? Cuase - to use MM's example of the little boy riding his bike in the street - the world is in danger of death, condemnation and hell and don't know it unless we tell them!

Now, some christians are better at this than others, some have a real "heart" for it, talent, leading by God, call it what you will. I know I do not have the gift of Evangelizing. However, I sometimes see people, or know people I work with, and think, "I should tell them about Christ. They should have something to help them, they are going through life without knowledge that would make a lot of things easier...." But I don't always do it. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe the reasons you outlined. But we are commanded to do it, by Jesus Himself, so we should be doing it, even if they are offended. Just like the little boy, there are horrible consequences awaiting them, and we can be held accountable, if they never hear, and WE were the only ones who could have told them. We should do it often. Even if it hurts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sufdb, I swear, I think you ARE SNL, but...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Oh, well......I'll assume I'm wrong....for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's the thing about what you are asking, S. IF (BIG "if" - I know), IF you have sought God before M'ing, have prayed about your mate, etc. and truly believe the one you have M'd IS God's mate for you.....then you have to trust all the tenets that MM has outlined are also true! Meaning: HE (the Lord), will convict your spouse of their bad behavior.....that HE will have them "notice" if you follow Him, and they do not....that HE KNOWS what you are suffering, and HE will bring them to repentance.....IF you are being obedient to Him. Yes, I KNOW you do not believe this, as you stated that to MM, but it is a Biblical principle, and as with ALL God's principles, IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

Now, does this mean it's going to happen like -POOF!! - next day, next week? Whenever we blink twice? Nope, no guarantee of WHEN. Remember, God's timing is not OUR timing! But here's another biblical truth: WHEN we are "One-flesh" joined in M to another, the closer we get to God, the closer they get, too! Can't help but be true, if we are One-flesh.

You also said, "So a M is being a sacrificial lamb...."
Truth is: Our entire life is a sacrifice to HIM!!!! HE OWNS US!! He bought us!!! Paid with HIS blood. HE CAN GIVE US WHATEVER HE WANTS, OR NOT. His choice.

Praises to Him that he is Merciful and Loving, and gives us WAAAAY more than we deserve!!! We deserve death..........He gives us eternal life. We deserve punishment and separation from Him for our sins, since He can't look on sin (ALL have sinned), He gives us restoration and fellowship with Him, and in fact, DESIRES ABOVE ALL ELSE that we fellowship with Him!

What an awesome God!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You believe you are "married" the instant you complete whatever social custom applies (that in itself is a little ambiguous, but whatever).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, not quite.

It isn't the "social custom" that creates a M. It is the VOW we take, both of us, in the presence of God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry MM but I fail to grasp how one can be saved while at the same time falling into the hands of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the point here is that although one can be saved, one can pull so far away from God as to be totally living outside God's tenets, and therefore in major DANGER of God's wrath and punishment. This punishment of God is meant to bring a beleiver back into the fold. Much like the Prodigal Son, much like the parable of the Lost Sheep. My own DH fits this category.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
I am in total agreement with everything MM writes............OK, 99% of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
My own M is "dissolved" - according to the civil courts, and my H is living in the "far country" - sleeps in another woman's bed every night........the whole nine.
Do I believe we are "Divorced" in God's eyes? No.
Why? B/c H initiated Div proceedings, against God's principles...........HE left, HE filed for Div., HE committed adultery, HE refuses to consider what God would have him do.

I don't think it has anything to do with what is going on around us, it's really a matter of obedience. I think that's what MM is saying to you. Do you want to obey Christ and do this HIS WAY?

I don't believe anyone is saying that you HAVE to say in this relationship with this person, if you believe God wants you out of it. See? That's MM's point! IF you have repented of your sins of leaving the M, and have returned due to obedience to God, and then you believe you have "biblical grounds" and have followed the biblical way of divorcing your erring spouse (having him declared spiritually dead, et. al), then you are FREE to move on!

This is all very interesting stuff. I feel I'm growing and learning with each post! Thanks, all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning:Here's what I wonder:

Is this thread, by this point, about learning Biblical principles... or is it about seeing how we all feel about what the Bible says regarding remarriage... or maybe it's about arguing about the Bible says... or perhaps about finding ways to continue the cycle of guilt and punishment that both the BS and WS already feel... or is it about convincing people that the Bible is the final say on all subjects, including adultery and remarriage? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that the point is to discuss what we think the Bible says, which *IS* the final say for a Christian. Its been a very productive thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My biggest beef with religion, and most especially Christianity (fundamentalists especially), is that so many within the 'system' push their beliefs down the throat of everyone - and God forbid someone believe differently. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does this have to do with this discussion? I often hear this complaint, but never see any evidence of it so I don't know the relevence of this remark. Are you therefore "pushing your beliefs" on us when you state your opinions?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML: previously wrote: A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know how many wars (both literally and personally) are started because someone (a simple human) uses "righteous judgement" to determine right and wrong? Who are WE to judge? And the quote above clearly says that ******God******* judges the soul - not man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dare say that most wars HAVE started because cruel despots could not judge right from wrong. I will tell you who *we are* to judge. We are rationally thinking, sane adults who are COMMANDED to judge right from wrong. God judges the soul, we judge the act. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong and I seriously wonder if anyone should be walking free who claims not to be able to judge right from wrong.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Hi Lupolady,

You are so dear! And yes, I do have some thoughts no what you've written:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, it is true. We ARE to be evangelizing any and every chance we get! Why? Cuase - to use MM's example of the little boy riding his bike in the street - the world is in danger of death, condemnation and hell and don't know it unless we tell them!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... I guess I think that most people *do* know about the danger, but choose another path. I don't feel it's my job to steer them down (or up) my path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, some christians are better at this than others, some have a real "heart" for it, talent, leading by God, call it what you will. I know I do not have the gift of Evangelizing. However, I sometimes see people, or know people I work with, and think, "I should tell them about Christ. They should have something to help them, they are going through life without knowledge that would make a lot of things easier...." But I don't always do it. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe the reasons you outlined. But we are commanded to do it, by Jesus Himself, so we should be doing it, even if they are offended. Just like the little boy, there are horrible consequences awaiting them, and we can be held accountable, if they never hear, and WE were the only ones who could have told them. We should do it often. Even if it hurts!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I will agree that some have this gift, I will then suggest that they are probably the one's who should be doing the telling. I'm not saying that I can't say when God has blessed me, because believe me, I do... but what I am saying is that my gift is absolutely NOT evangelism. And, I simply do not feel led to do it in the way that most churches preach about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I think that the point is to discuss what we think the Bible says, which *IS* the final say for a Christian. Its been a very productive thread. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear MelodyLane,

This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above).

Now I know we've talked about "legalism" vs. "literalism" before... but as you can see, for me, it doesn't matter all that much which "ism" we use, as I have a problem believing the Bible hasn't been corrupted by man.

I do NOT intend to offend you. I do not wish to insult you either. This is simply how I believe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What does this have to do with this discussion? I often hear this complaint, but never see any evidence of it so I don't know the relevence of this remark. Are you therefore "pushing your beliefs" on us when you state your opinions? </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that some on this thread are saying that it's "my way or the highway" using the Bible to support their belief that a second or subsequent marriage is wrong in the eyes of God - period.

As far as evidence: I do not want to point fingers or call anyone out at all -- and I certainly don't expect everyone (or anyone, for that matter) to come skipping along my garden path -- this is what *I* believe, and it's not for everyone. I'm just adding my two cents about what I believe.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are a Christian, however, you have to realize that many of us have spent years studying the Bible and do believe it's true so you bet we will disagree on that point. As far as being "literal," the literal parts should be taken literally, the symbolic parts symbolically, just as any other book. It should be taken in the spirit meant by the author. You are perfectly free to reject the Bible and rely, instead, on your own understanding, but others choose not to do so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that some on this thread are saying that it's "my way or the highway" using the Bible to support their belief that a second or subsequent marriage is wrong in the eyes of God - period. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I think rather that I see many people trying to figure out what GOD says. I don't see anyone saying "*my* way or the highway." There might be a disagreement about what God's intent is, but both sides cannot be right, hence a great discussion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is what *I* believe, and it's not for everyone. I'm just adding my two cents about what I believe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you have every right to believe what you choose. That right cuts both ways, though. Christians also have the right to discuss and try to determine what God believes via his word in the Bible.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning:
This is where you and I will disagree, because I do not believe that every word in the Bible is literal or even true. I am still a Christian, because I believe in the diety of Christ, and all that He has done for me (see above).

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">new beginning,
I very much agree with what you wrote. I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life. I do however question the role of religion. No one religion has ever met with my beliefs about Christ. I do not take the Bible literally, nor do I accept it as the word of God.

I do not believe God would want me to be in a bad marriage. Nor do I believe God would condem me for remarrying. The Catholic Church will grant you an annullment if you meet certain conditions, so even a large established religion acceptst that not all marriages were meant to be, even in the eyes of God. An annulment is no different in my eyes than a divorce, just harder to acheive.

Jen, if you can look yourself in the mirror every morning, and know that you have done your best to preserve your marriage, I believe you have done no wrong. If your marriage ultimately fails, I do not believe God would wish that you do not remarry, quite the contrary, I believe that if you find another man who brings joy to your life, and who will lift you up spiritually, God would want you to share your life with him.

Michael

ok, for NB a brief detour from the main focus of this thread.

I am not going to be argumentative, but it will feel like it, so if you find this distressing ignore it and I will not pursue it.

First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.

By calling yourself a Christian, you are saying you believe the New Testament...if you actually do not, then what do you believe sheryl? How do you even know Jesus existed if the Bible is not to be trusted (ie is corrupted). What is your source of authority for your belief system? A difference in interpretation is one thing, and is inevitable....but saying one will just pick and choose willy nilly, using as a basis one "beleives" the Bible is corrupted is breathtakingly arrogant. (not that you are arrogant sheryl, but such a position is).

First, if you beleive the Bible to be corrupted you must provide some kind of rationale, with proof, many have tried to do just that, and failed. In fact, the Bible has been subjected to more heuristic analysis than any other work of man, and has an internal consistentcy orders of magnitude greater than any other historical record, making it an unexplainable (some would say divine) anomaly. It is either true, or nothing is true, in which case being a Christian or a Heathan, or whatever, is all the same, since we have no basis for choice....well unless you have been addressed by some burning bushes lately.

If your position is that you sense and believe some kind of God explanation for our existence, as opposed to random physical events.. that is a legitimate conclusion upon reflecting why you exist. Calling oneself a Christian is more specific, it assumes you beleive in a God centric universe, but further that you believe the nature of that God to be as Christians describe Him. I personally think one can prove God exists (using logic and the scientific method, no theology needed), have had some long lasting um.."discussions" about this (often with atheists, who in general are poor debaters and usually go away mad when you disassemble their arguments), and read other "proofs" as well... so I am not saying you have to accept the Bible to believe in God. What is confusing is why people want to use the label Christian, but then say they don't believe in Christian theology, or they only believe in what suits them (in other words offer no rationale for the picking and choosing). Christian is just a word, you could say you are a rumpledinker and be just as saved etc, if your rumpledinker beliefs are congruent with Christian theology. But likewise one can say they are a Christian, but are not cause they reject Christian theology. The only purpose of labels is to facillitate communication, so we are all on the same page. Makes no sense to call oneself a democrat if you are a republican, or a girl if you are a boy, or a chocaholic if you hate chocalate, or a ...well you get the picture. It confuses people, leads to conflict, and wasted efforts trying to clarify what one assumed was true by a label, also breeds distrust, etc.

In this case Christian theology is clear (and makes sense) evangelism, or witnessing is part of the deal...so naturally anytime you enter a discussion that includes this concept, people would expect it a given you understand and concur...because you claim the label Christian. And so forth and so on with the rest of Christian theology. Now how one interprets evangelism is another story, how much and what kind should a given individual do is also subject to individual variation, but the principle is not open to debate, it is too clear.

Yes, it is a free country, and one can call themself whatever they want and believe whatever they want. What I don't understand is the purpose in calling oneself Christian, if one does not believe the source of our information for defining that label is correct. True, in the final analysis, believeing the Bible is the Word of God is a leap of faith. But that is what is asked of us, apparently you find yourself unable to make that leap, I am curious (if it is not too distressing for you) as to why.

ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Hi again, and thank you both to ML and Michelle for responding to my thoughts.

I rarely post anymore, and choose only truly meaningful (to me) subjects to pour my heart out on... and this subject, because I am in a second marriage, is one of them.

However, upon reflection, I realize that I cannot help but offend when talking about religion, because I am *so* not in the norm of Christainity ... and although I belong to the Episcopal church, I am not very religious. I used to be though, and I have studied the Bible extensively - and used to be very proud that I could refute any door-knocker that darkened my doorstep. Anymore, I don't care to do that... I'd rather work on my walk with God, try to be a good person, and spread love, whenever possible. Call me new-agey... some have... but these are my beliefs.

I was just out driving with my son who is learning to drive (now *that's* close to God!) and I realized that I can no longer contribute anything meaningful to this conversation.

I've said my peace, and hopefully Jen can make her own decisions based on her personal beliefs. In fact, she titled her beliefs, didn't she? She said that remarriage after divorce is not adultery or sin in her subject line. And although it is a fascinating discussion, I am concerned about it becomming a personal attack on beliefs.

Oh, and PS to sudfb (hope I got the name right, my memory, ah, it fails me at this age <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )... not offended at all, and you make some good points. Hopefully I made myself clear above, and perhaps we will discuss this another time. For now, I think it's best for me to bow out.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

Lupo et al, my use of the phrase sacrificial lamb was ill-advised. I certainly did not mean anything religious by it, but as a secular phrase meaning a sacrifice without meaning or benefit to the sacrificee. I withdraw that phrase and replace the point with marriage should not be understood as a condition that only benefits one party. It should be a mutually nurturing, safe, healthy, joyous place....as God said it should be. God does not (far as I know) say marriage should be a miserable, one-sided, hurtful place you just endure for a lifetime and get rewarded in heaven for you obedience. He gives far too many examples of how marriage should be for me not to think that means we are to assess our marital circumstance and empowered to act. Marriage is absolutely meaningless without the possibility of divorce. Without the possiblility one can lose the marriage (their spouse leave) there is no incentive, or consequence to alter behaviour. Such is the nature of human beings.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Not all Christians believe in prostelitizing, thank goodness. We lived in the midst of an Amish community for two years, and I heard the word "God" from an Amish person I believe one time, and never heard the name "Jesus." They just lived their religion, rather than feeling the need to beat you over the head with it. On the other hand, at 4-H (a state sponsored organization) dinners, there were not only prayers, but prayers ending with "In Jesus' name," in clear violation of the separation of church and state, not to mention quite likely offensive to every non-Christian present.

BTW, from what I have read, the main reason that the average lifespan has increased so much is the reduction in mortality in infancy and childhood. Once people reached their twenties, people were almost as likely to live to a ripe old age as they are now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God. By strict definition, belief in the new Testament, no I am not a Christian.
Michael

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

I must take issue with sufdb here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My dear friend, you are offending Jews and Muslims here by displaying your ignorance of their religions, and not even honoring your own religion, (much less making a convincing argument), by arguing its validity vs. these other religions when you have a very tenuous grasp of these.
I would suggest one of two options; either bow out of a discussion you are not prepared to make, or take the time (and show the respect) of learning about what you speak.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God.
Michael</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you said you believe in Christ:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that you believe in Him but do not follow him?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>ah another similar viewpoint...you too Michael</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but re-read my post. I did not say I was a Christian, just that I belive in God.
Michael</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you said you believe in Christ:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am a firm believer in Christ. I do not question his existance or his involvement in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that you believe in Him but do not follow him?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do believe in Christ. Not in the way most people do, but I do believe. By follow him, do I do what I belive Christ would want me to do, do I live my life the way I believe Christ would want me to live my life? Yes.

Do I live my life, or "follow him" by a preset way of thinking based on a set of "rules" (my word), no, I do not. Belief in Christ, and/or belief in God, as someone said earlier, is a leap of faith. The leap of faith of the Jews led them in one direction, the Muslims in another. My leap leads me down a different path. I don't think that makes me wrong, nor do I think it makes me right. That does not mean I disrespect your beliefs, though I do not agree with them.

Michael

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

That is true nellie, lifespans need to be adjusted for infant mortality. But other other non biologic reasons (such as sanitation, nutrition), not to mention better medical intervention also apply. So lifespan has increased substantially over the last 5000 years due to benefits in these areas. I am not sure but I think average "adult" lifespans (in a functional sense) in Biblical times was about 50 (but do not quote me).

Whether this fact is reflected in the marital doctrine we are discussing, I don't know. But it does make some sense. The first 1/2 of life (say 20-50) you are essentially raising and establishing your lineage (ie children), this is an a major motivator (still is) in remaining in unhealthy marriages. From 50-80 you essentially have another life, albeit subject to some ageing, and greater mortality rates...but even in the 50's a substantial number of women are starting/continuing families (having children). So there is a psychological pressure to not want to live this "additional" lifespan in a conflictual unhappy (and often distant therefore) relationship, just to get the T-shirt (see I was married 50 years). In part this sort of self-actualization component is also an outcome of not only longevity, but also greater social opportunity, more people have the money, and society offers women more options if they choose to divorce. This shift in opportunities for women is a primary factor in our divorce rate. Women no longer have to remain in a chattle condition, and in ever increasing numbers...they don't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By follow him, do I do what I belive Christ would want me to do, do I live my life the way I believe Christ would want me to live my life? Yes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so you do follow Christ' rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I live my life, or "follow him" by a preset way of thinking based on a set of "rules" (my word), no, I do not.

Michael</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And now you take back what you just said and contradict yourself like you did in your previous post. hmmmmm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By follow him, do I do what I belive Christ would want me to do, do I live my life the way I believe Christ would want me to live my life? Yes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so you do follow Christ' rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I live my life, or "follow him" by a preset way of thinking based on a set of "rules" (my word), no, I do not.

Michael</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And now you take back what you just said and contradict yourself like you did in your previous post. hmmmmm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmm, how did I contradict myself, don't follow you.
Michael

I just posted your exact statements and they are in direct contradiction of each other. You say you live the way Christ would want you to and then say you DON'T live according to his rules. That makes no sense. Just like you say that you believe in Christ but you are not a Christian. I don't understand.