</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>I must take issue with sufdb here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First saying one is a Christian but does not believe the Bible is the Word of God is almost an oxymoron. although the orthodox Jews manage to confuse the issue by believeing the old testmament, just not the new, so are not "Christians" (but believe in God), and the muslims also believe the old testament (mostly I think), and also the same God.. but are off on a wild goose chase with Mohammed, they do believe Jesus was a phrophet though. So your position is not without company, but even these 2 alternatives don't deny the Bible is the Word of God. They just stop at certain points.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My dear friend, you are offending Jews and Muslims here by displaying your ignorance of their religions, and not even honoring your own religion, (much less making a convincing argument), by arguing its validity vs. these other religions when you have a very tenuous grasp of these.
I would suggest one of two options; either bow out of a discussion you are not prepared to make, or take the time (and show the respect) of learning about what you speak.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??? You lost me spacecase, the post was not about Jews or Muslims, just a passing mention to the main issue which was what is a Christian. Since I do not intend to debate the fine points of Judaism of Islam vs Christianity (although I could, but only by referring to reference material I have at hand, I do not claim academic credentials), there is nothing to bow out of <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck I didn't post enough to offend anyone, are you a spokesman for PC? (that was a joke by the way). I have no need or desire to offend anyone, but I don't worry too much about PC either. If one wants to enter a religious debate one had best wear their best armour, it is a rough ride. been there done that, seen and been the butt of Christian bashing many a time myself, knocked all the offensive reactions right out of me after awhile, got tired of whining about being mistreated, and just bashed some more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Fact is religion debate is bare knuckle sport at it's best, and street fighting most of the time, best to just let offense slide right off ones back and stick to arguments. I admit the wild goose comment was not in the greatest taste...but it made my point succinctly and was not that awful, really is an acceptable imagery if one wants to convey they think (theologically) mohammed was a fake, and I do, and it is ok to say so.

Btw how can ignorance of someones religion be offensive anyways? Nor did I question their validity, Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all on the same page spacecase, the say God, the same Bible (at least the old testament parts). They (the Jews who don't think the messiah has come, and the Muslims who don't believe Jesus was the messiah either) are just confused about God's plan for us.

Did I mess up with identifying Orthodox Jews as not believeing in the new testament, dang, I was afraid of that, it is hard to keep all the religious factions straight..even the Christian sects confuse me sometimes, maybe someone will publish a simple laminated cheat sheet, I would pay good money for such an aid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I just posted your exact statements and they are in direct contradiction of each other. You say you live the way Christ would want you to and then say you DON'T live according to his rules. That makes no sense. Just like you say that you believe in Christ but you are not a Christian. I don't understand.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let me clarify. The use of the word "rules" was a bad choice on my part. I do not adhere to one religion, or one set of beliefs.
Michael

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I just posted your exact statements and they are in direct contradiction of each other. You say you live the way Christ would want you to and then say you DON'T live according to his rules. That makes no sense. Just like you say that you believe in Christ but you are not a Christian. I don't understand.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">s...I wonder if this falls under the category of ask and you shall be given.

Michael (and thx melody for following this up) you have demonstrated exactly my point. You believe in Christ, but you don't believe in Christ, this creates confusion when one is trying to understand where you are coming from. Why not just say you believe in God, and that you try to live your life in a way you think He wants you too. Saying you believe in Christ implies a much more delinieated belief, Christ said very clearly how He wants us to live (yes, subject to interpretation conflicts), if you don't believe that, it is hard to understand what you believe in Christ means. So what does it mean anyways?

ok, just saw the followup to melody. Then is it fair to say you are not a Christian, but that you believe someone like Christ existed, and draw certain parts (but not all) of your beliefs from some of His teachings?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>[qb]
Saying you believe in Christ implies a much more delinieated belief, Christ said very clearly how He wants us to live (yes, subject to interpretation conflicts), if you don't believe that, it is hard to understand what you believe in Christ means. So what does it mean anyways?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you admit there are conflicts in interpretation. Why am I wrong if I have not yet found a religion which fits with my intepretation? To answer your question though, I have always understood that believing in Christ means believing he was the son of God.
Michael

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

you didn't say you had interpretation issues. When one does, you are generally on the same page, and there has to be some recognizable (using rules of logic) basis for an interpretation conflict. But anyways this is all very difficult without specifics, the fact is I don't know what you believe. However, believeing Jesus was the son of God is a long ways down the I am a Christian path, the other half is believeing the Bible is the word of God. The rest is pretty much interpretation issues (subject to the logic caveat above, you cannot just invent a new interpretation out of the blue, unsupported by any real argument).

I'm sorry to jump back in here, but I realized I'd called Michael "Michelle" by mistake, and by the time I could get back on to the internet a dozen messages had been posted... seemed kind of silly to just change my mistake at that point.

So Michael, thank you for understanding my views... and I will honestly (hopefully gracefully this time) let you all get back to your discussion.

Me oh my, you've been a busy bunch of posters haven't you all?? I went to a wedding and you managed to post 2 additional pages since I left! All very interesting I must add.

I was able to attend a wedding without my H, and stay tear free. Now there's an accomplishment if I dare say so!

I still want, more than anything, to spend the rest of my life with the man I vowed to spend the rest of my life with. But if if I do everything in my power to make it clear to him that I want to be with him, and want to work on our marriage with him, and my H can't find it in his heart to try to forgive me and let me be his wife again, my goal will be to find a nice Christian man to marry and have a family with. As one wise person noted, I stated my opinion in the subject line: I don't think divorce or remarriage is a sin or adultery.

Being at a wedding today gave me a chance to remember so many happy memories, and recall how happy my H and I really once were when we were together. I am going to keep on praying for restoration of my marriage until the day that my H tells me he wants otherwise, or until I've waited as long as I can possibly wait for him to decide, whichever comes first.

It's so strange, I expected to be so sad after attending a wedding, but somehow it really encouraged me, because it reminded me of how powerful love can be, how it can unite two people and help them to take on the world together. I want that again, I just pray that my H will want that too. I now know that it not only takes love but hard work, graciousness and protection too.

This thread may have had me a bit upset earlier on, but in reality, it's helped me to confirm my own opinion. I apologize if I have offended anyone in the process.

Let the intellectual debate continue!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MM...No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen...s.. (not always, but I will grant you the analogy). ...Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

s...There will be consequences both ways MM, the ones if you stay may even be worse. I don't think we have any conflict over the issue of consequences. It seems out primary area of contention is who decides our life choice..us, or some arbitrary group of men supposedly sitting in for God. Secondarily what constitutes grounds for leaveing a marriage. And thirdly, what is spiritual marriage (as opposed to legal marriage) anyways.

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You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved.
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Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.

S...so when the believers gathered together and instituted the spanish inquisition that was sanctioned by God? not to mention the millions of other atrocities committed in God's name by gathered believers.

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And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...
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Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not.

s...scratching my head...yes they are MM. And God will recognize the divorce as well, so clearly the choice is the individuals....subject to consequences again.

MM...He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder.

s...This is oft quoted as meaning divorce is not allowed. That is not what it says. It does not say can never be put asunder under any circumstance, nor does it say an individual cannot set aside their own marriage (make a freewill choice)....why say no man, which sounds like anyone else but the given individual. It sounds like an admonition to the state, that the state cannot simply divorce someone for it's purposes. Perhaps declaring all inter-racial marriages annulled, or conspiring with an individual to get rid of a wife (H) for selfish reasons. Maybe a family member, or peer group would try to seperate the couple etc. Some would say civil divorce is just that, I agree. One should address the spiritual issues (themself) before asking the state to rule on the economic contract (which is all a marriage license is IMO). The state cannot decide you are married, or divorced in God's eyes, there are other criteria at work, and I think He makes that clear, so we can know our status. Lastly He does not say (and clearly has the power) He can't end marriages, so divorce (like most choices) is between the believer and God, not subject to anyone elses opinion.

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I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).
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MM...There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them.

s...What does that mean. How does a human being do anything but what we feel like doing. I might feel like flying by flapping my arms and jumping off a cliff...with predictable consequences, so I can't "fly" cause I feel like it. But I can construct an airplane and fly cause I feel like doing so. How one feels is a part of every single decision we make. If I feel like being divorced, but I don't cause I feel more benefit in obeying a particular interpretation of God's will for me, then I did exactly what I felt like. It is nonsensical to say one cannot divorce cause they feel like it...is akin to saying one cannot breathe cause they feel like it. If one assesses they no longer want to be in a marital relationship they can divorce. In fact I think most likely people who no longer want to be married but stay anyways are allready divorced, since God knows our mind. What do you think actually makes you married MM, surely not a piece of paper? What about people who cohabitate, are they married? What about people who don't believe in Christianity, are they married? What is the exact mechansim that creates oneflesh, and how can you know with exactitude it has happened? I asked you earlier questions about intent and capacity to enter a marriage, you did not address those. I would be interested in your views on this matter, when is one actually married, what are the requisite precursurs, what must the final result look like?

MM...Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them.

s..I agree. Divorce IMO can only happen when one party or both says you are divorced, that is all it takes. One can do that with or without God's will (freewill again, and resultant consequences), but the power to divorce can only reside in the individual. You cannot be bound against your will, in the final analysis marriage is a freely made committment, when it is no longer made, the marriage ceases to exist, and defaults to cohabitation, or a simple economic contract (if not living together).

MM...My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM.

s...I agree she proceeded wrong. Did you ever tell her you wanted to divorce her (prior to all this), did she tell you? I can't say for sure, but I wonder if a marriage ends the first time someone says they want a divorce, makes sense. Sort of like pointing a gun and shooting someone, then asking, are you really dead. If no one said they wanted a divorce, then her subsequent actions in not obtaining one suggests she was unclear in herself, despite what she said to you, and as you noted mistreated both you and the om poorly by not knowing what she wanted.

MM...God's way is always right for us. Our way is too often the wrong way and only brings pain.

s...Can't argue with that.

MM...You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

s...smile, MM we do what God wants cause we want to. We always do what we want MM, that is the nature of human life, we are not insects subject to a hive mind, or animals forever constrained by genetic programming. I have no problem with this, and will never give over my will to another man, to do so violates the Creators plan for me.

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You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too. If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).
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MM...What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog.

s...love the two ticks thing. It is all just words MM, I agree love is almost a meaningless label anymore, used so often in dysfunctional and/or self-serving ways...Oh I just love my H, even though he beats me regularly, has serial affairs, verbaly abuses me, yada yada yada...yeah right, that is love. I don't think you can decide to love someone either, is a nonsensical notion, you can decide to act in a way, or give things you would not normally do, and call it love. But IMO the love we speak of when trying to identify oneflesh, only exists in a union that meets high standards of being a safe, healthy, nurturing, joyous place.

I agree committment is a factor as well. But committment without standards to assess the marriage is just legalism, and of no value. Nor would I want to be loved that way, who would. In fact we have labels for such committment (when extreme), obsession, stalking, etc.

MM...There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

s...Sounds ok, but God will not save us from a bad marital choice (which one would have avoided had we listened to His will in the first place, no matter we are the avoider or the avoidee).

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Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.
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This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there.

s...Uh, MM you added to my comment, please do not do that, it is very annoying. I said God will be there, not that He would condone whatever we do. The better job we do making choices the better the outcome, I would suggest people always pray and seek discernment for their choices.

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Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.
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The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins.

s..Whoa big guy. That is a reach to equate marriage with believeing in God, and that if you don't get marriage right you will die (unlike getting believeing in God wrong). Calling it a covenant isn't particularly compelling, just wordplay. God clearly recognizes divorce, even explicitly spells out some circumstances, and implies others. You cannot ride the coatails of the New Covenant to make your marital case, apples and oranges.

MM...Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured.

s...No it hasn't. And this again gets into an uncomfortablke area. Death is death, it is unambiguous. Human relationships are anything but simple, they are very complex interactions, including what exactly is marriage (and divorce). If you mean adultery "kills" a marriage, that is ok symbolism, but it is not fact, you can only kill a living thing, living meeting certain observable biologic criteria. I also (haven't yet, but now good as any) take great issue with this notion of spiritual death. No man (or group of men) has any status or capacity to do declare such a thing. It also flies in the face of the entire bedrock of Christianity, that we are all sinners, but are forgiven and can be saved...how does that happen if you are declared dead for some arbitrary reason? Must you be resurrected? We are not Jesus MM, and we are not his bride in a human sense, it is just symbolism. We cannot die and be resurrected because we goofed up today in someway. If so we all need to be declared dead and resurrected daily cause we fall short all the time.

MM...And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

s...I don't think so. He has provided a way to make choices though. He has make our relationship a personal one, we do not need a go between. One can just simply ask Him what to do, the answer will be provided.

MM...My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

s...She cannot decide you will never change, or anything about you, good or bad. She can only decide for herself, and obviously she did not decide the marriage was over, or you would be divorced now. Or perhaps she did decide the covenant was broken, or never existed, and based on your subsequent behaviour has entered (or is considering entering) a new marital covenant with you...that is a different thing, and freewill allows for such outcomes.

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I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.
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MM...Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

S..I am not much into word games MM. You cannot have marriage without divorce is a meaningless concept. You cannot have light without dark, hot without cold, etc. If everyone is married, and it never ends then it is not marriage, it is just the condition that species exists in. I use the label marital choice to include any and all behaviours, choices, consequences etc, arising from contemplation of this behavioural paradigm.

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Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.
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God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

s..That assumes God puts all marriages together. A point I will not conceed (due to freewill).

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The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?
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MM...Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing.

s...Divorce is not a sin. It is a condition of committment with secular and spiritual components having consequences. If it was a sin, then divorce would never be "allowed", but it is under a variety of conditions. That suggests divorce is not against God's will at all, so He may very well lead you to divorce, why wouldn't He?

<small>[ July 13, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Re: God divorcing Israel! You need to read the whole chapter!
He basically removed his grace and protection from her until she would turn again to him! Put her away as well. Get down to verse 14!
Following is remainder of Jer: chapter 3!
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

God has always considered Israel his chosen land and people! He has not forsaken them completely and will rejoin with them.
We are talking the adultery of worshiping other Gods!
There is a big difference between forsaking forever and withdrawing for a time until their repentance!
To try to use the book this guy wrote to justify divorce and marry again and again is in my opinion, Heresy!
He completely takes text out of context, not applying the total Scriptures!
If you read it all, you will find that God did not forsake Israel forever! He states himself that he is her Husband!
Quite frankly, I read the whole article and found it to be disgustingly twisted!
But then, there are other religions that have done the same. Written their own books because they feel there are errors in the Scriptures originally given!
Hey, God allowed Samson to kill many, shall we say that since God allowed that to bring justice that murder is not a sin for any of us as long as we feel justified?
And before anyone thinks I'm condemning those who have divorced and remarried, I am in the same boat! Once divorced and remarried! Not through infidelity, but a year after divorce I met and remarried my current husband.
The law of Moses had been taken and totally misapplied to marriage and divorce in that article.
Shall we also go back to the old testament and decide that since The within first generations some had multiple wives that it is so today?
Um, try reading Hosea and God's word to that situation!
Let us not forget God made it possible for us to be forgiven many times over because he knew we'd screw up a lot!
The scriptures also say if an unfaithful spouse wishes to continue in the marriage, the Betrayed one may choose to also continue.
---- Malachi 2
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

--------Matthew 5:
Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[5] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[6] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Perhaps some would like to research scripture online. I use Biblegateway.com

LEN

The thing about these kinds of discussions is they focus on the "right" to divorce. The quality of the marriage, something one chooses voluntarily, it is not a "rquirement", seems to be of little importance. I find that hard to understand, and suggests to me this argumnent as it rages across the land is driven by two mindsets...one being the rulemakers, those for who the rules are everything, the outcomes of less concern, their safety, there reason for living lies in a dance with the rules. The other mindset is about does something make sense, does the outcome match the purpose of the rule, if not the rule is being misapplied, or maybe just wrong, and is discarded, clarified, overhauled.

These two poles will never agree, they cannot, they live in different realities and it will color every argument, every decision, every interpretation and so forth. We clearly must have rule, which is why we have evolved rulemakers, they are essential to our survival...likewise we clearly must have rule challengers, who focus on outcomes, to keep the rulemakers from rigidity and ultimately self-destructing under weight of the rules. Likewise the rulemakers (as a majority) exert a lot of control over the challengers, making them work hard at proving their case, and proceeding slowly with change, lest we throw out the good rules with the not so good rules, and perish in confusion and chaos as our carefully crafted (and maintained) systems fall apart.

Since God made us this way, must be a good thing, but it sure is hard for the two types to get along (or reach consensus) when fundamental issues are at stake. It is even more difficult when the two types are interacting in personal relationships (family, marital, partnerships, community) etc.

God provides lots of information about what a healthy marriage looks like, I think He does so for a reason, so we can assess our personal circumstances and make decisions accordingly. If marriage were just about rules, would be no need for this info. IMO marital decisions need to be made in the light of both rules, and quality.

There is one thing that I find with sudfd threads. Why do you seem to have to put the words of 'who you sleep with'. Does marriage mean so little to you than a sleeping partner. I have read your posts elsewhere, and you bring this up quite frequently.

Also, you are really out on left field on divorce and sin. Divorce is sin. God does not want divorce, and quit the crap of so your husband beats you several times. What about men who could't keep their pants zipped up, and look into their wives eyes and see the hurt they cause. Why do you have to put everything at the worst. I know I was an obedient wife. I did almost everything my husband wanted. I even got a parttime job, and he came to my place of work, made a scene and I put my resignation in 1 week later. And he agreed to have me work outside the home to make some money to play with. And then when it didn't fit his chart, he came and made a scene. He wouldn't let me do things without asking him. So many people would ask me why did I have to ask my husband and I said cause I had to. But he purchased big items, did things without me, and didn't think anything about it. I worked hard for this man. I ran the business, we had out of the home. And didn't receive one paycheck all those 25 years.

Divorce is a sin, and where you get your theory, sounds like you haven't read the Bible. Read the above passages out of the bible. And see where you committed sin, and hurt your family, and especially your wife. I for one know that a man who has a sexual affair in their marriage, don't give a crap about their wife, and don't care what they said to their wife. Read the threads here and read how the betrayed wife had to deal with a ballistic man. The Bible states, treat yourmate as a possession of love. A possession that you will give all you have to that person. Treat her like you would treat yourself.

If you are to remarry, you will be committing sin. According to the bible, the only one that you are allowed to marry is your wife. Your wife will always be your wife, no matter how you look at it. You two went before the altar with God, and professed your love to each other for life. Not till the grass is greener on the other side, or till you get tired of the person. This was a committment with God, and only God. For you to think that you have not sinned, for you to not have committed adultery, you are one person in need of counseling.

Many many posters have stated their pain, and look at their spouses eyes, seeing only betrayal and sin. Seems that divorce is too easy, and the committment was not there in the first place. Maybe all going to the altar should be going for a lie detector test first.

This was stated before, once you are married, if you divorce you have committed sin. And if you marry another, is sin. The only one that you are allowed to marry is your spouse. Cause you both created this union, oneflesh with God at the altar. SUDFD, so you didn't committment yourself at the altar to oneflesh. Did you go to the altar stating until I get tired of this one?

We are not perfect humans. No one is perfect, and therefore everyone needs to confess their sins. Show empathy, and compassion. Show remorse and guilt for what they have done. That is in the Bible also. That is part of the healing process. Without this, there is no healing.

sudfd? this quote you put, where in the bible do you find this?
(Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.)
According to all the bible versions I read, it says where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be also and it applies to prayer. Not judging!
We are in fact, commanded not to judge.
Matthew 18:
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This clearly appears to be as agreeing in a prayer for a request. Not judging.

Of course, not all who post are of the Christian religion. But if you are and want to know the truth, it's dependent on deep research in the bible for yourself. Not taking some other persons book written and interpreted purely on their whims.
Even though one has their Pastor as a spiritual teacher, it is necessary for each person to delve into the word, read it, pray for spiritual guidance to understand it. For it's pure interpretation as God meant it.
So many can twist it, change it around to suit their own lifestyle desires.
And reference in the many books for a full knowledge. Not just one, but all 66!
We cannot pull one or two verses out and get the full context of a chapter.
As for God having given a divorcement as was mentioned in the Article you put, it says since it's not a sin for God to do, then it's ok for us.
I totally disagree with this Dr.'s opinion.
Then we could say oh well, God brings judgement, punishment and death on people, so it's ok for us to do too?
NOT! We are not God. And to twist his works around to please our own little gray areas is just what some authors do.
Besides, Divocement in the meaning of what God did with Israel is fully different than us breaking our marriages apart.
Choices? We made the choices of whom we would marry. It's our judgement that is at fault if we later decide we don't like it.
Whatever two people had to bring them together to begin with is to be kept or renewed. Not just dumped the min the going gets tough.
There are instances of physical, mental, emotional abuse that cannot be tolerated and I believe in that instance, God will make a way out. But it might not be divorce at all.
Infidelity can be many ways. Not just sexual.
Man is to love his wife as he loves his own body/and the church.
It might take years to rebuild what has fallen away in a marriage, but it is rebuildable.
Too many simply look for any excuse to divorce and run over to the next greener looking Pasture.
Guess what? They all have weeds!Who you are in one marriage is who you will take with you to the next one!
I know one man whose wife moved in with another man. But her H didn't divorce her. He waited 5 yrs, due to his christian belief.
She finally filed for divorce. But this way it's her who broke the covenant, not him.
He never intended to file so he would not be held accountable for breaking the covenant. And it's a covenant not only between two people, but with God as well.
LouLou

Thanks LadyLou and Faith, you bring up some very good points.

SB,

I am going to address all of your latest post, but I want to say something first. To me, it appears that you say a lot of "I believe" but not a lot of "God has said or written." Now, I am not here to argue beliefs, nor pursuade anyone in them. This thread has to do with marriage, divorce and remarriage and whether divorce and remarriage is a sin in God's eyes (read the Christian God). Now, if other religions, atheists, sects of Christianity that arent really Christians (and tghere are a few), want to talk about beliefs in the sins of adultery, divorce and remarriage, then they are welcome to it. But here, we are talking about Christians and what God expects of us.[/quote]

In the Christian faith, heathens are expected to sin. It is human nature. If the sins that you have committed already in your life have given you a death sentence (and God does state that ALL sin has the penalty of death, no matter how we view it in severity), then who cares if you commit a few more.

Christians are different. We are no longer sinners, no longer heathens. We are Christ in us. Does that mean we dont sin? Of course not. It means that we are a new creature and no longer bound by our flesh (sinful nature). So, we can chose not to sin based on the fact that sin no longer has a hold on us.

When a Christian sins, it is because they believe the lie of their old nature. That dont believe in who they have become, who they REALLY are. My wife said today that when she started the affair, she was done with the marriage. She said she had reached her limit. Now, if you are talking about JUST the limits of Mrs. MM, I would agree with her. But she is saved, and she was nowhere near her real limits. Why? Because she has the strength of Christ in her. And thus she has enough strength to carry on, no matter what. But she lost sight of who she REALLY is and acted on the lie from Satan, the one that says that she had not changed, that she was still the same ole Mrs. MM. All lies. But she fell for it.

I will get to your posts now. Maybe I am wrong about what I see is your emphasis on YOUR beliefs, and not the emphasis on what God has said. Now, if you want a discussion on the validity of the Bible, or its accuracy after being handed down through the years, then we can do that (but I would rather just give you a list of books, two in particular, that may lay to reast any doubts you have on whether the Bible you are reading is the Word of God). But, I am having this discussion with fellow believers. That presupposes that those believers believe in the central tenets of Christianity (we may not all have the same interpretation on the small stuff...and that's fine) and believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

Now, I am going to get to your post. Maybe I am wrong about what I said above about you. If I am, I apologize for my mistake. But it just seems that you want to argue beliefs. I will show you how I arrived at this below. This thread is not about arguing beliefs. It is about the discussion of what God has said, and try to find out His intent through that. So, let's try to stay away from beliefs that are not at least backed up by Scriptuure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
MM...No it doesnt, just as enlisting in the Army doesnt abrogate freewill. the choice was made to enter the relationship. Choices can be made to get out...but there are always consequences (good or bad). If I leave the Army based on both parties agreeing, then a good consequence will happen. If I desert, well, some very bad things will happen...s.. (not always, but I will grant you the analogy). ...Actions have consequences. Marriage is a legally binding contract (read covenant). There are ways out of it. If you chose to leave by your own way, there will be consequences.

s...There will be consequences both ways MM, the ones if you stay may even be worse. I don't think we have any conflict over the issue of consequences. It seems out primary area of contention is who decides our life choice..us, or some arbitrary group of men supposedly sitting in for God. Secondarily what constitutes grounds for leaveing a marriage. And thirdly, what is spiritual marriage (as opposed to legal marriage) anyways.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, of course there are consequences for what we do. I have accepted my wife back home after her betrayal. There have been many consequences because of that decision. Not all of them have been pleasant. On the deciding a life choice, as you put it...well, first of all, we made that choice when we said "Until death do us part." Also, when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior (and by being our Lord, means we subject ourselves to His rules), we also accepted all of the views and His will when it comes to marriage. The group that God says we must use when we have a problem with our brother or sister is not arbitrary. It isnt just picked out of a crowd. The "group" isnt allowed to do whatever it wants. It must subject itself to God, His Word, and His decisions. So, if one's church cannot do this, that cannot render a righteous decision (God's will), then it is time to find a new church! I believe the primary contention between you and I is not about this group, but whether or not God gets His freewill in this. God has expressed His views on marriage, divorce and remarriage. They are unambiguous. So, He has expressed His will in this situation. Does He get NO say in the marriage that He created (and the Bible does say He created marriage, for the believer and heathen). Thus, if He is God, and He has freewill also, wouldnt it make sense that He can create the rules for an institution that He created? God defines what marriage is, not us. He made it!

On your second point, it is clearly stated several times in the New Testament what the grounds for divorce and/or remarriage. A widow can remarry due to physical death. A person can also divorce and remarry due to spiritual death (more on this below). Please read these. Many of them have been posted in posts above.

On your third issue, a marriage is a marriage. It isnt spiritual or non-spiritual. It is a marriage. Marriage is an institution created by God, with rules created by God, and its purpose is from the view of God. We have no right, especially as Christians (since WE made Him Lord) to question those rules and decisions. Who do we think we are? We are talking about God here, not the President of the United States! Unfortunately, humans in their sinful nature want to make life all about themselves. Well, creation, life, etc...it is all about Him. It is His ballgame. He has given us freewill. That power we do have. But we have NO power to change or modify or cancel his rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You offer the out of Church intervention and this spiritually dead thing, but the truth is that makes me very uncomfortable, too many "human" agendas involved. Oh, I worry about human agendas also. But Christ promised that when two or more gather to judge in his name, there He will be.

S...so when the believers gathered together and instituted the spanish inquisition that was sanctioned by God? not to mention the millions of other atrocities committed in God's name by gathered believers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I outlined above, we are either under the rule of God, or we are in rebellion and sin. The atrocities you outlined above were due to individuals that did not believe in who they really are. They believed the lie! Thus, they acted on their own. In the military, we have a chain of command. The higher guys make the rules for the lower guys. Now, within the limits of the rules, we have the right to freewill. But we have no right to change the rules of higher HQ. And we as Christians (or any human being for that matter) have no right to redifine what we believe to be fair or just, and ignore God's will or intent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I just can't reconcille myself with the notion a group of church people will decide who I sleep with...that is such a personal decision that it is between me and God, and it is through prayer I think we are empowered to arive at marital choices...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, marital choices are yours. Divorce choices are not.

s...scratching my head...yes they are MM. And God will recognize the divorce as well, so clearly the choice is the individuals....subject to consequences again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God does not recognize an "illegal" divorce. A divorce must be legal on His terms! And His terms require death.

Look, two guys might want to "marry" each other, they have the ceremony, the State ordains their union. Did they have freewill? Of course. Is it a marriage that God recognizes? Of course not! God has defined marriage, and that aint it! Same goes for divorce. God has defined what constitutes a legal divorce. If you do it YOUR way, He still looks at you and says "What divorce? I dont see any divorce. If you had REALLY divorced, you would have done X, Y, Z... You are not divorced." Want an example? The woman at the well. Jesus recognized that she had 5 husbands! She was a polygamist. Why? Because she had married these men one at a time, but never bothered to divorce the right way, under the conditions that God has set for divorce. Of course, He then goes and tells her to go and sin no more. After she had repented, and decided to follow Him, then her marriages were declared dead, and she was free to remarry. Also, look at David in 2nd Samuel. God did not recognize his marriage to Bathsheba because she was still married to her husband (never sought an acceptable divorce). So, we have adultery. It wasnt until God received just compensation for their sins (through the death of their first child) that God then blessed their marriage and orrspring. There ALWAYS has to be death for God to accept remarriage. The passages that outline this were listed above by someone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...He has said that once the union has been made by Him, let no man put it assunder.

s...This is oft quoted as meaning divorce is not allowed. That is not what it says.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not say that. Nor would I ever. In God's eyes, I had grounds for divorce at one time due to the spiritual death of my wife due to adultery. Thus, I know that God does PERMIT divorce. But understand this...God never will tell you that His will is for you to divorce. He has just permitrted it under certain conditions, due to the hardness of our hearts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does not say can never be put asunder under any circumstance,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">of course not...it says man is not to put it assunder...only He can!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nor does it say an individual cannot set aside their own marriage (make a freewill choice)....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What? What Bible are you reading? It absolutely says that you cant decide to end your marriage. That there are conditions, and there is a process. You made a choice when you married. You made a vow. You entered into a covenant, of which the rules and regulations are clearly outlined. To not live up to your agreement is not to have God disallow freewill. It is just that you will reap what you sew.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why say no man, which sounds like anyone else but the given individual. It sounds like an admonition to the state, that the state cannot simply divorce someone for it's purposes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is absoltuely not what the bible is stating. If God had wanted to say State (governement), He would have said so. He says NO MAN. That is individual. That is anyone! God has the rights of God. And one of those rights is to set the rules. We are His creations. We have NO RIGHT to set the rules, except those that he delegates to us. He gave us freewill in order for us to make the decision to love Him, or not. And He has said what happens to you, depending on that decision. And that is His right and His freewill. Just as you have the freewill to reject Him. But if you do, then you WILL get what you DESERVE. All sin carries the death penalty. Without God's grace, you are subject to that penalty for that which you have done against God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps declaring all inter-racial marriages annulled, or conspiring with an individual to get rid of a wife (H) for selfish reasons. Maybe a family member, or peer group would try to seperate the couple etc. Some would say civil divorce is just that, I agree. One should address the spiritual issues (themself) before asking the state to rule on the economic contract (which is all a marriage license is IMO).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely none of this comes from His word or is Scriptural. And since we are talking about God here, then I will ignore this. Except to say again that our beliefs here are a dime a dozen. We all have them. But this discussion is about what God has said, commanded, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The state cannot decide you are married, or divorced in God's eyes, there are other criteria at work, and I think He makes that clear, so we can know our status. Lastly He does not say (and clearly has the power) He can't end marriages, so divorce (like most choices) is between the believer and God, not subject to anyone elses opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not what God has said. As a matter of fact, He has said exactly the opposite of what you have stated here. Read VERY closely 1st Corinthians 7. He doesnt say this is "one" way. He says that if your brother or sister sin against you, and you talk to them and they wont listen to reason, then you are to take them to the church. End of story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there are lots of tools one can bring to bear on marital resolutions, and if the Church court thing works for someone, fine, it really makes no difference, cause in the final analysis, regardless of how one gets to a particular point, we are each going to do exactly what we want to do (think best), such is the nature of human beings (and how our Creator made us).--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MM...There are many tools to bring to bear. But divorce because we feel like it isnt one of them.

s...What does that mean. How does a human being do anything but what we feel like doing. I might feel like flying by flapping my arms and jumping off a cliff...with predictable consequences, so I can't "fly" cause I feel like it. But I can construct an airplane and fly cause I feel like doing so. How one feels is a part of every single decision we make. If I feel like being divorced, but I don't cause I feel more benefit in obeying a particular interpretation of God's will for me, then I did exactly what I felt like. It is nonsensical to say one cannot divorce cause they feel like it...is akin to saying one cannot breathe cause they feel like it. If one assesses they no longer want to be in a marital relationship they can divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your belief, and you are ABSOLUTELY entitled to have it. But that being said, understand...this is NOT what God has said, not what Jesus preached when He was here. I no of no Chapter in the Bible that says what you have stated above. But there are MANY in there that state the exact opposite. Divorce is God's perview. He has stated how it will happen and under what conditions it will happen. There is no assessment. There is only obedience, or disobedience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In fact I think most likely people who no longer want to be married but stay anyways are allready divorced, since God knows our mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The key word here is that you said "you think." But your belief is not Scriptural. He says you are bound to your spouse as long as they are alive. And that you are no longer bound once your spouse is dead. Very clear wording here. Not really open to interpretation. No matter if you are happy, or sad...marriage is predicated on something else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think actually makes you married MM, surely not a piece of paper?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the supernatural joining of a husband and wife into one flesh. That is marriage. it doesnt matter what kind of ceremony, or what you say at the ceremony. Paper or no paper. It is what God does to the two of you that makes the difference. And it is that joinging by Him that gives Him the right to say when it is seperated. And He has said unequivically that only death shall seperate you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about people who cohabitate, are they married?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope...and they are committing the sin of fornication (if they are having sex).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about people who don't believe in Christianity, are they married?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. God has many rules, institutions, etc that ALL humans are subject to. He made the Law of Gravity. We are all subject to it the same. Marriage was created by Him. He set up the rules.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the exact mechansim that creates oneflesh, and how can you know with exactitude it has happened?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GREAT question! The exact same one that I have been asking. But guess what...there is an answer. I actually did research into the one flesh thing and have the answer, but it is at home and I wont be home for another week. But the one flesh thing has to do with God binding the two into one. "Bone of bone, flesh of flesh. When I get back home, I will try to post the conditions for a one flesh relationship. But the basis is that God does this...it isnt from anything we do. And, how do I know with certitude that this happens? Because God says so...and He never lies nor disppoints.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked you earlier questions about intent and capacity to enter a marriage, you did not address those. I would be interested in your views on this matter, when is one actually married, what are the requisite precursurs, what must the final result look like?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what you mean by what the final result looking like. But a marriage is not something that can be pinpointed exactly. Are you married before the vows? After them? With no ceremony? There is a biblical notion of consummating the marriage. So in my "beliefs," I have always believed that my wife and I didnt become marriaed and one flesh until the moment we consummated our marriage. Again, the exact moment is a good question, and will be the subject of my future studies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...Letting the local judge decide whether to divorce you, and break up a marriage that God put together, isnt one of them.

s..I agree. Divorce IMO can only happen when one party or both says you are divorced, that is all it takes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So when my wife decided after I left for Bosnia that she was done with the marriage, then after that, she was no longer married? So that meant that she didnt commit adultery? Whew!! All the time I thought my wife had been immoral, but now I see that she can just make up what married is and when she is married or not anytime she liked. Okay, I am being sarcastic. But my wife took the same position to justify her affair. But no matter her feelings and justifications, she was still married to me and still committing adultery. This is why that God took out the ability of the individual to decide these things. Because in the emotional mess that relationships find themselves sometimes, it would be too easy for people to just jump from one marriage to the next when one or the other spouses can just say "I'm done"...and then she can continue looking for another spouse or playmate. Understand this...what you have prsented in that statement is NOT Scriptural.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One can do that with or without God's will (freewill again, and resultant consequences), but the power to divorce can only reside in the individual.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do you get this. God's word in the Bible is exactly opposite of this. So, who brought up these ideas. They are definitely nor scriptural.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot be bound against your will, in the final analysis marriage is a freely made committment, when it is no longer made, the marriage ceases to exist, and defaults to cohabitation, or a simple economic contract (if not living together).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marriage is not being bound against your will. Your will was when you married. Is this tough stuff? Oh yeah!Marriage is hard to get into, and even harder to get out of in reference to God's provisions. Why? Because God knew we would be very destructive in our relationships and to our children, if left to our devices. When I decide that I no longer want to live up to a contract, that doesnt mean that the contract is null and void. In actuality, when I decide not to live up to a contract, then the penalty phase comes in. Again, your view here is not Scriptural.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...My wife is still not back all the way from her rationalization for her affair. She believed at the time that she was done with the marriage, that I wasnt the husband I should have been. So, she decided to pursue her independence of the marriage, met the OM, and decided her future was with him. This was HER way of dealing with the marital problems, to end the marriage. Problem is, her way was ADULTERY. Her way was not God's will. He gave her a way to bring healing to the marriage, and bring me back or have me put out and she could move on. But she did not take that way. She did it HER way. And her way was very destructive to everyone around her, including the OM.

s...I agree she proceeded wrong. Did you ever tell her you wanted to divorce her (prior to all this), did she tell you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No and no.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't say for sure, but I wonder if a marriage ends the first time someone says they want a divorce, makes sense.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can say for sure. The Bible doesnt say the marriage ends when someone says so. It says that it ends with a "death."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sort of like pointing a gun and shooting someone, then asking, are you really dead. If no one said they wanted a divorce, then her subsequent actions in not obtaining one suggests she was unclear in herself, despite what she said to you, and as you noted mistreated both you and the om poorly by not knowing what she wanted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. She didnt tell me to protect me while I was in harms way in Bosnia. Waited until I got back. But, she was serious!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...You say that we will do what we want to do. Too often that is true. And we wonder why things are so screwed up. This is the real meaning of life. Our way or God's way. Whom shall we trust?

s...smile, MM we do what God wants cause we want to. We always do what we want MM, that is the nature of human life, we are not insects subject to a hive mind, or animals forever constrained by genetic programming. I have no problem with this, and will never give over my will to another man, to do so violates the Creators plan for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, of course we do what we want to. The point of your walk with Christ is to change your wants. As a new creature, your wants should change, because now you subordinate your sinful fleshly wants for the wants of Him who is now in you. Now, His wants are your wants. We get in trouble when they are not. The Creators plan for us is to love Him. Not to find happiness in ourselves. It is all about him!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You stayed cause you want too, and so has your wife...if you continue to remain married (regardless of quality good or bad) it will be because you BOTH want too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you make that choice for healthy reasons you will reap desireable consequences, if for unhealthy reasons (duty, obedeience without regard for the quality of the marriage being one example) you will reap undesireable psychological consequences (ie bitterness, resentment, etc.).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See back to another post I had here. Duty, obedience, committment...these are the basis of a good marriage. They are the bedrock that you can rely on when things are tough and you arent "feeling the love." So, building a relationship based on these things is not unhealthy. It actually will give your relationship a fighting chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...What makes a marriage a marriage? What is the basis of it? Love? No. We can fall in and out of love with our spouse. Friendship? Nah. Many times, I HATE my wife...well maybe not hate, but dislike her. Lust? Well, we know the answer to that dont we?

Marriage is based on committment. Committment to each other. Yes. But remember, that alone will not sustain you. It is like two ticks without a dog.

s...love the two ticks thing. It is all just words MM, I agree love is almost a meaningless label anymore, used so often in dysfunctional and/or self-serving ways...Oh I just love my H, even though he beats me regularly, has serial affairs, verbaly abuses me, yada yada yada...yeah right, that is love. I don't think you can decide to love someone either, is a nonsensical notion, you can decide to act in a way, or give things you would not normally do, and call it love. But IMO the love we speak of when trying to identify oneflesh, only exists in a union that meets high standards of being a safe, healthy, nurturing, joyous place.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read the requirements of a husband for his wife. He is to love her as Christ loves the church. What kind of love is that? God's love. Alone, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to love his wife in the way she deserves, and in a way that will protect the relationship. it takes LOVE Himself to provide that love to you and through you. A marriage makes it because when my flesh says I want to throw my wife out because of what she has done, the love of Christ tells me to forgive, to love her with a sacrificial love, to treat her as a someone special. But, while I dont feel it, my committment to my wife, and more importantly, to Christ, allows me to find the love and strength to give my wife the type of husband that God demands.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree committment is a factor as well. But committment without standards to assess the marriage is just legalism, and of no value.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True..and God HAS already set the standards. We do not get to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nor would I want to be loved that way, who would. In fact we have labels for such committment (when extreme), obsession, stalking, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ANYTHING in extremes is usually bad (love, hard work, working out, etc.). Actually, a spouse who has a spouse who is committed to them through the principles and direction of God, has a better chance of being loved the way she/he wants to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...There has to be a higher basis. That higher basis is God. When we let Christ take over our marriages and we follow His will, we will have a dynamic relationsip. So, to base staying or going on what God has said, is a much better way than on love, lust, etc.

s...Sounds ok, but God will not save us from a bad marital choice (which one would have avoided had we listened to His will in the first place, no matter we are the avoider or the avoidee).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. But God takes all things in the believers life and uses them for the good of the believer (Read Romans).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ones life is what one makes it, and God will be there regardless.
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This was the attitude my wife took that fascilitated her adultery. She was going to do whatever she wanted. And God's grace would cover her. He would always be there.

s...Uh, MM you added to my comment, please do not do that, it is very annoying.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, didnt mean to be annoying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said God will be there, not that He would condone whatever we do. The better job we do making choices the better the outcome, I would suggest people always pray and seek discernment for their choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just for the record MM, I am not advocateing we only do what feels right either. Sometimes adhereing to ones beliefs is difficult, even painfull. But that usally means a choice about us, we are in control of the outcome to that extent. Marriage is a different animal, it involves 2 peoples behaviour, and we have no control over the other....but we do have a choice, that is the counterbalance, we can stay or leave.
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The first 3 of the 10 Commandments have to do with our relationship with God. the last 7 have to do with our relationship with each other. Those regulate our behavior because 2 or more people are involved. But those commandments only command us...you are right, we cannot control the other. So, we can not murder, or commit adultery, or lie, or steal...and it might still be done to us. But, in relationships outside of marriage, we do have the option of just leaving. In the case of a marriage, you are dealing with a legally binding covenant.

Now what is a covenant. A covenant is a legal agreement, under the penalty of death. That is what the New Covenant is all about. God has provided and agreement that He will accept us, but only through payment by His son for our sins.

s..Whoa big guy. That is a reach to equate marriage with believeing in God, and that if you don't get marriage right you will die (unlike getting believeing in God wrong).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didnt say that if you dont get marriage right. Death comes from rebellion to God's word, no matter what you are rebelling against. So yes, if you divorce for a non-biblical reason, and do so in a way not prescribed by God, then you are sinning. If you knew better beforehand, but did it anyway, then you are rebelling. 1st Corinthians 7 is there so believers can pull another believer back into the fold before they rebel (and die). But in the end, if they still want to continue in their own way (thus rebellion), then they are spiritually dead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Calling it a covenant isn't particularly compelling, just wordplay.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not my wordplay...it is God's wordplay. So, your argument on whether marriage is a covenant is with Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God clearly recognizes divorce, even explicitly spells out some circumstances, and implies others. You cannot ride the coatails of the New Covenant to make your marital case, apples and oranges.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didnt ride the coattails of the New Covenant. Just used it as an example of one covenant. All covenants are the same. By definition. A CONTRACT is a legally binding agreement. A COVENANT is a legally binding agreement, under the threat of death for those that do not live up to it. In the New Covenant, we didnt live up toi the contract with God. Thus, God's holy sense of justice demanded a death. And sent His son to do so for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...Marriage is a covenant. And a covenant cannot be broken without death. If our spouse commits adultery, then death has occured.

s...No it hasn't. And this again gets into an uncomfortablke area. Death is death, it is unambiguous.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is? In the Bible, there are two kinds of death. One is physical, the other is spiritual. It is possible to be physically alive and spiritually dead. Adam and Eve were told that if they ate the fruit, then they would die. Well, they did and they didnt. At least not physically. But spiritually, they were. They were cut off from a relationship with God. If you are uncomfortable with this, I am sorry. So was I a few months ago. But I didnt write it, I am just the messenger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Human relationships are anything but simple, they are very complex interactions, including what exactly is marriage (and divorce).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Relationships are compex. God's view on marriage and divorce is not. Easy...no. Simple...yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you mean adultery "kills" a marriage, that is ok symbolism, but it is not fact, you can only kill a living thing, living meeting certain observable biologic criteria.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not what I am talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also (haven't yet, but now good as any) take great issue with this notion of spiritual death. No man (or group of men) has any status or capacity to do declare such a thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, your problem isnt with me, it is with God. He said it. it is His word. A man's status in this is what God says it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It also flies in the face of the entire bedrock of Christianity, that we are all sinners, but are forgiven and can be saved...how does that happen if you are declared dead for some arbitrary reason?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rerad 1st Corinthians 7 very closely. if you go thru that and they are still rebelling, then they are to be TREATED AS IF they were sinners or tax gatherers. Treated AS IF they were dead spiritually. They are released to the consequences of their rebellion AS IF they werent saved. Christ will not mitigate the consequences nor provide grace in rebellion. Only afterwards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Must you be resurrected?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. You dont lose your salvation. You are just treated as if you had. Until you repent. See 2nd Samuel with David and Bathsheba for a GREAT example.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are not Jesus MM, and we are not his bride in a human sense, it is just symbolism.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must think all of the bible is symbolism. I have heard that a lot out of you. And we are not Christ...we ARE Christ in us. That is who we are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We cannot die and be resurrected because we goofed up today in someway. If so we all need to be declared dead and resurrected daily cause we fall short all the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Not what I said. See above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...And then we are no longer bound. But God has provided the way for us to find out if indeed death has occured, and that is 1st Corinthians 7. He has not given us the choice to decide if another has become spiritually dead.

s...I don't think so. He has provided a way to make choices though. He has make our relationship a personal one, we do not need a go between. One can just simply ask Him what to do, the answer will be provided.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct. Absolutely correct. But He will NEVER contradict Himself. So if He says He is the only way, then He is the only way. If He says let no man put a marriage assunder, then that is they way it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...My wife did this. SHE decided the marriage was dead, that I would never change. SHE decided the covenant had been broken by me. But SHE was incredibly WRONG. When we do things our way, too often, we are wrong.

s...She cannot decide you will never change, or anything about you, good or bad. She can only decide for herself, and obviously she did not decide the marriage was over, or you would be divorced now. Or perhaps she did decide the covenant was broken, or never existed, and based on your subsequent behaviour has entered (or is considering entering) a new marital covenant with you...that is a different thing, and freewill allows for such outcomes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The second is what happened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe Chrisitan marital doctrine (all of it) is about when and how to make such a choice...not that we have no choice.
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MM...Marital doctrine is about choice. But even in that choice, He makes limitations (we are not to marry unbelievers). Divorce on the otherhand, is not a marital choice. It is a divorce choice. And He has said He hates it, and if He is to permit it, here is the reasons, and here is how you can do it.

S..I am not much into word games MM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not either. But guess what? Words do mean things. They are not always symbolism or bague.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot have marriage without divorce is a meaningless concept. You cannot have light without dark, hot without cold, etc. If everyone is married, and it never ends then it is not marriage, it is just the condition that species exists in.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have marriage without divorce, then you have PERFECTION!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I use the label marital choice to include any and all behaviours, choices, consequences etc, arising from contemplation of this behavioural paradigm.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Divorce is a serious business, we all hate it, no surprise God does too. But that is an entirely different notion than all marriages are made in heaven, and must continue no matter what.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry...didnt make the rules. Take it up with the guy who did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God said that He put the two together...thus yes. the marriage was made in heaven. We just chose to make it hell on earth.

s..That assumes God puts all marriages together. A point I will not conceed (due to freewill).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you can say such a thing. it is your right. But you cannot say that the Bible does not state this, because it does. So the question remains...do you believe the Bible? If you do, then God's word and promises are true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The assumption made by man cannot end what God ordains (marriage) assumes He never uses his absolute power to end marriages....I can see no reason why he wouldn't, or any reason why he would value every marriage made, it is nonsensical. If we have freewill we will be often starting marriages He does not choose, why would he not end them?
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MM...Because He has said, go and sin no more. If you married into something that wasnt His will, He isnt going to have you sin again by divorcing.

s...Divorce is not a sin.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It ABSOLUTELY IS! In order to get a divorce, we have to disobey God. Either we are divorcing when there is no grounds (as He has outlined), or we have grounds but do not pursue it in the prescribed way. Either way, that is sin!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a condition of committment with secular and spiritual components having consequences. If it was a sin, then divorce would never be "allowed", but it is under a variety of conditions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Killing is a sin, but only when it is murder. Defending yourself, killing is not a sin. Thus, killing can be a sin or not. Same thing with divorce. Sex in marriage is not a sin. Sex any other way is a sin. Sex itself is not a sin...it only is a sin when we have it outside the God-prescribed boundaries and rules. Divorce God's way, under His conditions, is not a sin. Divorce under our own way and reasons is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That suggests divorce is not against God's will at all, so He may very well lead you to divorce, why wouldn't He?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I have shown above, this is not the case. Divorce is against His will, always. but due to the hardness of our hearts, He has PERMITTED it under certain narrow circumstances.

As I said above, I had the same questions as you and many of these things I did not know. I have taken the time to study this intensely. Many times, there is room for interpretation. But most of what I have presented here is very unambiguous.

I know that God can present His will to an individual. But He never, ever contradicts Himself. He has prescribed the boundaries, rules, etc for marriage and divorce. I caution you that if you are going to discuss God's will, that it must align itself with what He has said.

In His arms.

LadyLou,

I may be wrong (because I have been up all night), but I think I read that you said that Christians are not supposed to judge, and that Christ is not there in judgments.

1st Corinthians 7 absolutely says that Christians are to judge. It exhorts us that when we judge, we will be judged by the same standard that we judge. So, we are to be careful when and how we judge. And it does say that where two or more gather in His name, there He will be. And that was in the context of the discussion, which was rendering judgments.

In His arms.

OOPPPSSS...I told you I am low on sleep.

To everyone, where i have referenced 1st Corinthians 7, please look to Matthew 18. Sorry!!!

Mathew 18:

15"If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.16But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.17If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won't accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.18I tell you this: Whatever you prohibit on earth is prohibited in heaven, and whatever you allow on earth is allowed in heaven.19"I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you.20For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."

MM...To me, it appears that you say a lot of "I believe" but not a lot of "God has said or written." Now, I am not here to argue beliefs, nor pursuade anyone in them. This thread has to do with marriage, divorce and remarriage and whether divorce and remarriage is a sin in God's eyes (read the Christian God).

s...My use of the phrase I believe means...."it is my interpretation of Christian doctrine (and Scripture), and my understanding of the revealed God that..."

But it is a little cumbersome to say this each time. Hope that clarify's where I am coming from. Although context should have, no problem though with your concern.

On another note about the use of the word covenant. First the Bible is not written in english, so I am not sure the exact meanings of marital covenant and other covenants are equivalents in the way you stated (violation of a covenant means death), just cause you use the same english word. I am not even sure the principle of covenant exists as you suggest it. (Not that covenants don't exist at all). You are suggesting some arbitrary mechanism is extant, and that if one can have it labeled on them you violate it or die as an imposed punishment. It seems more like to me a covenant could be akin to a principle, like gravity, if I violate it, I will be injured, may even die, but not because I believe or not in gravity. God does not kill anyone (I guess, maybe he does sometimes I dunno, but in general) because they choose (freewill) not to make the leap of faith...you die because you didn't make the leap of faith and went down with the airplane instead of accepting the proffered parachute.

Regarding your most recent post, there was a lot of hey it's not me, this is God's idea. Well that isn't an argument MM. That is why we are having this discussion. We differ on Scriptural interpretation. Whether you are the better Scriptural whiz or not (and I mean that in a freindly manner) doesn't give you any points. I have read the Bible too, and was raised in all the usual Christian enviroments. I feel comfortable I have sufficient information to have the interpretive opinions I make (and some of this is not opinion but discussion as well, devils advocate and all that), and feel no need to quote chapter and verse (something I am not good at). In the end Christianity is a personal religion, between one and God, and is not about which individual (or even scholar) is a better at making their case with Scripture. In the end every interpretation is wrong, cause none of us (humans) has perfect understanding.

On another note (the declared spiritually dead thing). I did some surfing last night and asked that question on a Christian site (not sure where, and not saying they were right either). I was told your use of this idea is not Scriptural. That God nowhere empowers any humans to declare someone spiritually dead, and that was not the point of the Scriptures you quote in that particular. This still greatly distrubs me as a concept...One I intend to find out more about. At the very least it offers no accountability if the church court errs, and they will, they must, it is not a perfect process. No one can tell someone they are married, should remain married, are divorced, or can divorce...no one. It is a decision made between the individual and God.

We are reaching the point where one starts repeating themselves, so will not rehash the rehashing, but later will add any more comments that come to mind about your last reply, and maybe a conclusion. Thx for the discussion. I will be interested in your comments on when exactly marriage occurs (and IMO it is not when consummated, for a whole host of reasons...and someone (you?) said bethrothal was marital committment in ancient times, that would be before consummation). .. what exactly makes one married (and not the words people say, but the conditions that prevail, and why if a marriage is not working like God describes is it still a marriage...and how does that work with oneflesh.

I have a real problem with the notion....oh la di da, I am dating someone and they are just so wonderful, and after a month they go to a JP and take out a marriage license (or a church, and now they are automatically merged into this oneflesh status...then one comes to find out they made a bad decision, the person is nothing like who they thought they were...ok, so there are consequences to making bad choices...but losing your entire life, being bound to someone against your (now) will...whew, that is a heck of a price to pay for a momentary lapse of good sense. Heck we (and God) know people make dumb choices all the time, so interpreting God's will for marriage as glorifying bad choices is nonsensical. And saying, oh well, that is what He says is not true, it is an interpretation, and not a very good one at that. Since the concept of divorce exists, and conditons for it (including hard hearts). Making marriage more important than the well-being of the people in it seems at odds with the Bible in general, God is not about legalism, He is about our well-being. I think Scripture supports that. Your argument boils down to legalism, that being married is what makes us healthy, that we are being judged by our acts, and efforts at obedience, regardless of the damage we sustain. Yet we know (as you pointed out with the inquisition example) that obedience can be missapplied, often horribly so. That tells me there has to be a balance, and that the well-being of the supplicant is relevant to God's will..and that a marriage which is not a safe healthy nurturing place is NOT God's will for us. So we cannot interpret marital doctrine legally only, but intent and capacity of the individuals is a factor in the consummation and oneflesh issues, and must be accounted for in marital doctrine. If not, the interpretaion is de facto incomplete.

This post has gotten so many answers since I was last here, and I scanned through but honestly don't have time to read it all, so please forgive me if I touch on something already covered. One thing that bothered me is that around post 50 I said that 1 Corinthians 7 never talked about the church discipline that you are talking about. I said that a chapter in Matthew did, and that that was for all sin. No one acknowledged this, so after 110 posts, you finally realize that you have been on the wrong scripture about this the whole time. How many people have been talking of this, and didn't open the Bible and read where the passage was, or research for themselves? This is what most deeply disturbs me when discussing religion or Christianity. Who has opened the Bible and looked? Very clearly in 1 Corinthians 7 it says that if an unbeliever chooses to leave a believer, a believer should let him./ This means submitting to the divorce, because you cannot "make someone do something- especially a nonbeliever". We would also all do well to remember 1 Peter 3:15 - but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared for a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness & reverence. Some people were telling newbeginning that she was called to evangelize. She is, in her everyday life, and if people ASK. I do not believe that we are to try to inflict our religion on others day after day- or then they will really not want to be a Christian. How appetizing is it to tell someone how they should be living, when it is unsolicited advice?
Matthew 18 should be carried out for ALL sins. But rarely is it. It never says anywhere in the Bible that you must do this or you are still married. Nowhere. The person in Matthew 18, if he does not listen, is treated as a heathen or pagan- which means at least temporarily expelled from Christian fellowship. Does this mean spiritually dead? I don't know. I know it doesn't say that. I know it says adultery is the pathway to death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the church declares someone spiritually dead and if you remarry you are sinning until that happens. Very clearly it says in Matthew 19:9 that if you divorce and remarry, EXCEPT for sexual immorality, you are committing adultery. So let's not forget that verse. I know I won't. The truth is, everyone, EVEN if you are all Christians, or all another religion, will disagree about something. Where is your heart? Where is this debate? Is it a prayerful, well thought out debate, or a I am right and you are wrong debate? Has anyone stopped to pray or to listen to your heart on such matters? Is the Lord involved? Is it more of a "let's inflict rules" or let's have a relationship and ask God about his will for our lives kind of thing? Opinions are like Old Navy Shirts, everyone has one and you will never make anyone completely agree with you no matter what. So while discussions are good, and healthy, and encouraged, after all, we are on a discussion forum, the bottom line is, it is between you and God. What some feel convicted about, others may not. The Bible is the truth. The Bible is also open to many interpretations. So seek GOD for answers. And be at peace knowing you are doing the best YOU can with YOUR life.

<small>[ July 14, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....in 1 Corinthians 7 it says that if an unbeliever chooses to leave a believer, a believer should let him./ This means submitting to the divorce, because you cannot "make someone do something- especially a nonbeliever".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Adgirl,
I agree with you on this point. Further, when one is m'd to an unbeliever, and THEY (unbeliever) "leave" - or div. the believer, I would say the believer is absolved of any guilt - at least as far as breaking this covenant, since I would say an unbeliever cannot enter into a covenant with God - until they become saved.....and that would be the first covenant they enter into. They are actually only "covered" in this covenant by virtue of the faith of the believing spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The person in Matthew 18, if he does not listen, is treated as a heathen or pagan- which means at least temporarily expelled from Christian fellowship. Does this mean spiritually dead? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the comment that proves my previous point: If an individual is not a believer, they are spiritually dead!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it says adultery is the pathway to death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the church declares someone spiritually dead and if you remarry you are sinning until that happens. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Adgirl,
Go back and re-read MM's scripture references. This thread is very long now, so I don't want to reiterate what has already been stated, b/c he covered it adequately earlier. WHen the elders and leaders declare a sinner will not repent, and put them out, and they are considered to be as tax collectors and pagans (total unbelievers). Unbeleivers are spiritually dead, so in essence, a death has occurred to "break" the covenant. ALL covenants require a blood sacrifice (death) to seal (or unseal) them. I believe this is what MM is referring to. And yes, I believe it to be TOTALLY scriptural. That is not to say you must believe that.....but it would be worth studying to learn and find out, wouldn't you say? (I'm not speaking exclusively to you, Adgirl, there are others here who are being quite contrary in accepting these things.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Bible is the truth. The Bible is also open to many interpretations. So seek GOD for answers. And be at peace knowing you are doing the best YOU can with YOUR life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TOTALLY AGREE!!! God's Word does not go against Itself......so IF one really wants God to speak to them, wants God to tell them what they should do, all one has to do is ASK HIM!!!

Here's the rub: Sometimes people want what they want, and therefore IGNORE - or misinterpret - God's Word in order to align it with their own beliefs. I believe THIS is where the many interpretations come to play. It's the rare person who follows exactly what God wants them to do. It's too hard, it's not popular, and it often goes against what WE want to do. I know I am guilty.

"The road is narrow, and hard....." we all know this. So the problem of just trusting your own thoughts, beliefs, studies, without filtering it through your church leaders is that this can be dangerous, and lead to lots of wrong interpretations.

Whoa! Big storm. Will send this, then continue later. Don't want to lose all this when the lights blink! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"The road is narrow, and hard....." we all know this. So the problem of just trusting your own thoughts, beliefs, studies, without filtering it through your church leaders is that this can be dangerous, and lead to lots of wrong interpretations.

But the ultimate leader is Jesus. And sometimes it is dangerous to go to church leaders about everything too. They can seek God's will WITH you, but church leaders don't always know best either. Yes, we should do as Matthew 18 says- sin is sin and unrepentant sin should be addressed. But let's not put church leaders on a pedestal. And where does it necessarily say that pagans and tax collectors are spiritually dead? They may not be covered yet with the Holy Spirit but they have the capability of finding Christ.
You asked me to go back to Mortarman's scriptural references. With the utmost respect, I again said around post 50 that his scriptural reference was wrong and it was not acknowledged until around post 110.