</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>We as individuals are not to judge what is sin. Just as the victim's family can not decide what is to be done to a murderer.
In most countries, this is so. However, there a few countries where the victims families DO get to decide on the fate of the murderer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">s..Where?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>We are ALL sinners and betrayers, and acknowledging it with humility is a step towards God.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">s..If you acnpwledge it without humility then it doesn't count? So Christianity is predicated on being humble? What about rightousness (not a humble behavior). What about acceptance (not a humble behaviour). What about even acknowledgement in anger, fear, or despair...that is not a step towards God?

SB,

You pose alot of GREAT questions. Many of these have been the central questions I have raised in my situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so MM while the discussion goes on I am curious about something, what is marriage to you? (Not looking for a religious dissertation). Do you find your motivation in following God's rules (as you interpret them), and who/what/etc. your wife is, of less importance. In other words the quality of your marriage is not a factor in how you view marriage, it would make no difference who you were married to, you would continue the arrangement, even if you lived a lifetime in an empty, lonely marriage? All this theory is fine, but you know as well as I, that millions of people live in empty, neglectful, lonely marriages....won't even go into emotional, verbal abuse....(will accept we all agree physical abuse is a legitimate get out free card). Do they just endure for a lifetime? There are no other standards, just the very instant, nanosecond you agree (to whatever passes for social recognition of marriage in ones culture), you are "yoked" for your entire life?

One misstep, one mistake, decieved by the one pursuing you, ignorant yourself of proper mate selection, whatever, you are done? Your life (on earth as a partner in a healthy happy marriage) is done, ended, fini, never to be? Suppose you are some 15 (age of consent in most cultures) 16, 17 whatever yo, and you marry a complete loser, you are bound to them, must service them, must give them children etc. etc. no matter how undesireable the marriage is. And you must do this for the rest of your life......why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why indeed! First off, my view on marriage is that there are three persons involved in my marriage...my wife, Christ, and me. I do not get all of the things I need out of this marriage from my wife. There is also Christ in this marriage, who never fails me.

Now, why did God create marriage? Well, many reasons. But the first was to create a relationship between a man and woman that reflects His relationship to us. Why? In order for us to have the life we deserve, the life where we get closer to Him, all in order to honor him.

How do we do that? Well, first off, we need to marry a believer. Do not be unequally yoked. That is a rescipe for disaster. Now, being married to a believer doesnt mean that they wont do the things that you listed above. Shoot, my wife is a believer and she committed adultery and ran off with the OM.

But what it does do is give your marriage the grounding it needs. It gives your marriage that third person that you can appeal to when everything between you and your mate are breaking down.

Now, I know of the things that you were referring to. Love, lust, friendship, etc between spouses. What about that? Well, I love my wife intensely. But let me ask you a question. What does the Harley's say about love, about the love bank? That ANYONE that makes depositis in our love bank can cause us to fall in love with them. That's how most of these affairs have happened.

So, if affairs, casual friendships, etc all have these things in common, how do those things make a marriage special? They dont. The affair isnt special, it's sick! But there is love there. Lust, friendship, etc. What makes it DIFFERENT from a marriage. Vows? Hardly.

A marriage is a bond put together by God. He wants no man to put it assunder.

He makes us one flesh. Now what makes a marriage one flesh? Well, Adam speaks in Genesis of "bone of bone, and flesh of flesh" when referring to his marriage to Eve. One flesh. But read it closely. He doesnt say "SHE" is bone of bone, he says "IT" is bone of bone!

Now what is 'IT?" It is the marriage, the relationship. We are supernaturally joined together. Sure, there is love, friendship, lust, etc. That is all the fruits of the relationship. But the marriage is based upon the relationship that was joined by God.

Now, if we are joined to a bum or to someone where the love or lust just isnt there, then what kind of marriage do we have? Well, not the one God intended. But, His will isnt to throw it in the trash. The bond is STILL there, until He breaks it.

This stuff is really simple, but it isnt easy. If we follow His guidelines for marriage (both spouses), then love, lust, friendship, etc ALWAYS follow. but we can never BASE a marriage on these things. That will only cause disaster in the end.

The marriage has to be based on somethign else. My marriage to me is based on the fact that I am no longer one, but two. If I want to end the marriage, I have to split the one back into two. And when you cut something living in half, both halves die!

Look at the statistics. MOST spouses who have divorced look back 5 years later and see that there is still a part of them with the old spouse. Why? Because they are one. Until God splits it.

I love my wife very much. She used to be my best friend. I used to lust her like no other woman I have ever met. Now, she has hurt me very badly. But nonetheless, she is still my wife. I am still in this relationship with her and Christ. And God has promised that He will reward me if I keep His standard. That is why I KNOW that my wife will be back to my friend and lover in the future.

If one person changes, the other HAS TO change.

Marriage is a relationship preidcated on more than love, lust, friendship, children, family, etc. It is a joining of two people in a supernatural relationship. A joining which we have no right to separate. Many Christians around the world die martyrs deaths for Christ. Is that unfair? Sure. We would God allow that? He has allowed freewill. But those martyrs will reap a reward greater than any that we will ever know.

A pouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>
If you acnpwledge it without humility then it doesn't count? So Christianity is predicated on being humble? What about rightousness (not a humble behavior). What about acceptance (not a humble behaviour). What about even acknowledgement in anger, fear, or despair...that is not a step towards God?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is righteousness or all of the others without humility? ARROGANCE that blinds you to beleive that you are incapable of doing anything wrong and PRIDE in your beleif that you are better than everybody else.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

hey, you must have missed the part about no need for a religious dissertation, I already understand that part....my purpose (in that post) was about when it does not work, and the various ways one can become married. I get that you see hope and value in yours...but what if you did not? Is marriage a life sentence? Suppose one day after being married you found your wife had lied about things that would have led to your not marrying her if you had known them...she tricked you into marriage. What does MM do? Now same question suppose 1 year gone by, maybe 10, 20... what principles are at work MM. I specifically would like your opinion about being decieved into marriage (happens quite regularly btw). This all ties into freewill (we either have it or we don't). One response might be that we are always in the marriage God meant for us, but then that abridges freewill, so is not the answer (and an obvious copout anyways).

MM... spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded.

s...You cannot possibly say that (with proof), you can only hope that.

MM...Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around.

s...And maybe never, but why would one have the choice to spend their life like this taken away from them? We are empowered as human beings (by our creator) to assess and change our lives in every imaginable way....yet somehow we are not empowered to address something as critical to our well-being as who we choose to be in the most vulnerable of relationships with?

MM...Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed.

s...yippee, maybe one can wear a hair shirt while they are waiting too. There is no virtue in misery MM, no matter how obedient. This is no different than saying the way to heaven is paved by good deeds, it is not (as you know)...and I do think legalistic application (otherwise known as obedience) will go unnoticed, as it should.

MM...The other person in the relationship notices,

s...MM you absolutely cannot argue this way, you cannot just make a feel good statement and use it as proof. The other person may very well notice nothing, and continue to use and abuse their spouse...why, cause they are allowed to if a mindless application of obedience is applied to that marital circumstance. The eamples are all around you, even on these MB boards, of people married to users, who will never be a healthy marital partner. That falls under the lifetime question, your argument is nicely protected by simply writing these people off by saying so sorry your life was awful, but no you can't do anything about it, you will be rewarded in heaven though... MM one can offer that rationalization about any religious topic, it doesn't wash. We are either empowered by freewill to lead our lives in healthy manner, or we are not...I think we are.

MM...and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

s...So marriage is about being a sacrificial lamb for a spouse we never would have chosen had we known what was coming (for those whom this applies too). The idea we sublimate the marriage by pretending we are married to Him is questionable. God will meet our needs married or not. The issue is freewill, and are we empowered to assess and order our lives in all ways, or not. The trouble with imposing draconian rules on one party to a marriage is that it empowers dysfunctional people to seek out such mates, marry them, and reap the rewards of having such a mate, while doing nothing in return, or worse being neglectful, abusive, narcissistic, slothful, whatever. Your argument only works when you have two psychologically/emotionally healthy people who want to (and have the capacity too), meet each others needs...but then if that were true, they probably don't want to divorce anyways.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

TMCM I have no idea what the point of your reply was. But I agree pride and arrogance are bad things. I do however think there is a wider set of human behaviours than arrogance, pride, and humility. I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so. I assume God has some means whereby this belief in each of us is actually present. An arrogant prideful attitude is probably less likely to make this leap of faith...but being humble is no gaurantee one will either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, SOME have also used this simple requirement as carte blanche to commit unspeakable attrocities. Tell me this then, are you free to commit murder, adultery, and theft if you know that in order to be saved you are only required to beleive your above statement? Isn't this a very similar requirement like the one that terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hetzbolla looks for in their members.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also think being saved (getting close to God) only requires one believe God exists, and that Jesus was His son, sent to redeem us, and did so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, SOME have also used this simple requirement as carte blanche to commit unspeakable attrocities. Tell me this then, are you free to commit murder, adultery, and theft if you know that in order to be saved you are only required to beleive your above statement? Isn't this a very similar requirement like the one that terrorist organizations like Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hetzbolla looks for in their members.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">s..You used the word "know", so you will not be saved whether you do unspeakable things or not. But assuming you meant to use the word "believe", then yes you can do anything and be saved.

However, keep in mind that humans are quite capable of self deception. So thinking one believes in God, yet willfully disobeying probably means you don't really believe. The efficacy of our belief will be judged, hence our motivation to behave "now", even though we will fall short, such is the nature of freewill. In simplistic terms I think (for unknowable reasons), Christianity is a test of each humans ability to make a leap of faith, a culling process if you will. To the degree the ability to make that leap is related to our motivations (and resultant actions) we place ourselves at risk when we willfully disobey God's will.

Terrorists, molesters, thieves, adulterers and such that do so deliberately can be forgiven (obviously) but the more they choose such behaviour the greater the likelihood their belief will fall short. Even ignorance is no sheild, because God has promised all a fair choice (meaning understanding a choice exists). I am not sure what happens when say a moment before death a lifelong child molester repents and becomes a believer. It appears they will be saved, that the issue is acknowledgement, repentance, which seem to be a part of the leap of faith. That offends our sense of secular justice, but makes sense spiritually, because you are reborn, there is no need or benefit to punishment for previous transgressions. Such would imply coming to believe out of fear, I don't think one can make a leap of faith based on fear, but rather it is made on trust and hope.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

SB,

Thanks for the continued discussion. Before I get into the meat of your arguments, let me say that I believe you are not seeing the full picture of what I am saying. I will go into more detail below. But suffice it to say, so far, I have mostly covered what God demands in marriage, what the person who lives up to his expectations can expect. You have made a lot of reference here to the one that doesnt live up to those expectations. So let's discuss them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hey, you must have missed the part about no need for a religious dissertation, I already understand that part....my purpose (in that post) was about when it does not work, and the various ways one can become married.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not dissimilar to enlisting in the Army. We all enter for many reasons. Go talk to a group of soldiers, and you will have many different reasons why they joined. Now, when they joined, they made a vow. And that they would live up to that vow until the contract was over with...and thus the relationship ends. Now, what if the Army life isnt what they expected? Can they just walk in and say "Hey, I didnt expect this...I'm outta here"? Of course not. In many things in life, we make the best possible decisions we can at the time. Sometimes we make stupid decisions, like joining the Army out of a lark or something. No matter how it happened, we gave our word. We entered into a "relationship" that only ends when that contract is through.

Now, can we get out of it early? Sure. But we will pay a penalty. Jail, loss of pay, social stigma, loss of security clearances, etc. That is a choice. Eventually, once the early penalties are paid for, we can get on with our lives. But in many ways, that choice to leave before the contract is over, will drag with us the rest of our lives. We wont be able to get jobs that require security clearances. We might have a federal record. And so on.

Marriage is the same way. We made a vow, a contract with God and our spouse. Even if our spouse breaks the contract, God has not. He has allowed us one way out of this contract...death. Physical or spiritual. I mean afterall, we did promise "until death do we part." Not until debt do we part...or until they stop making me happy do we part...or until they start ignoring me do we part. The only criteria for the ending of the contract is death. That is why this is a SERIOUS decision, and one that has life long consequences.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get that you see hope and value in yours...but what if you did not? Is marriage a life sentence? Suppose one day after being married you found your wife had lied about things that would have led to your not marrying her if you had known them...she tricked you into marriage. What does MM do? Now same question suppose 1 year gone by, maybe 10, 20... what principles are at work MM. I specifically would like your opinion about being decieved into marriage (happens quite regularly btw). This all ties into freewill (we either have it or we don't). One response might be that we are always in the marriage God meant for us, but then that abridges freewill, so is not the answer (and an obvious copout anyways).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, it does not abridge freewill. Not at all. We made a choice. Now, in your example, that choice might have been made due to lies by our spouse. But remember, there isnt just the two of you in the relationship. One of the things in Scripture it talks about is staying in the marriage to win the person to Christ or back to Christ, due to your example. It is an evangelical opportunity.

God HATES divorce. He doesnt say that he hates some divorce, He hates ALL of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM... spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded.

s...You cannot possibly say that (with proof), you can only hope that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I absolutely can! First off, these are promises of God. He is God, and by nature, He does not lie. So if He promises something, His promises are true. Now subjectively, there are believers out there who can testify that His promises are true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around.

s...And maybe never, but why would one have the choice to spend their life like this taken away from them? We are empowered as human beings (by our creator) to assess and change our lives in every imaginable way....yet somehow we are not empowered to address something as critical to our well-being as who we choose to be in the most vulnerable of relationships with?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look, this life is not about us. It is about working out our relationship with God. At one time in history, this life was about us and God. And then Adam and Eve screwed things up. Now, we all have to work out our relationship with Him, in order to have that life again that they first have. The eternal life in the presence of God. So, just like the many reasons for joining the Army, there are many reasons why we are in the relationship we are and what God expects from us. Maybe it is to win our spouse back to Christ. Maybe it is to pass on a Christian background to our children. Maybe it is to bring a closer relationship to God in our lives. There have been people that it took being paralyzed for life until they woke up and saw where they were headed and repented.

Now, I know what you are going to say. What about freewill? well, if my 5 year old son is riding his bike in the street and I see a truck coming, I could just leave him to his choices. Afterall, he has chosen to ride in the street. But where is the love for him. Now, if I run out and jerk him off his bike at the last minite, and bruise him in the process, amd I being mean or denying him freewill? Of course not...I am saving his life.

When God does many things, we look at the pain and wonder what kind of God will allow this. Well, many times, it was that painful event that was the ONLY thing that took us out of the way of that "truck." Hell is forever, and very painful. God does not want that, and as a loving God, He will do everything He can to educate and pursuade us to save our lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed.

s...yippee, maybe one can wear a hair shirt while they are waiting too. There is no virtue in misery MM, no matter how obedient. This is no different than saying the way to heaven is paved by good deeds, it is not (as you know)...and I do think legalistic application (otherwise known as obedience) will go unnoticed, as it should.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhh...I do not speak of legalism. I speak of a relationship. If my relationship with Christ is right and I am where I should be with him, would I divorce my wife because she isnt meeting my needs? Of course not. God will NEVER tell someone to divorce. Divorce is only PERMITTED and only under certain circumstances. And if you go on, you will see that God permitted it due to the hardness of our hearts. So, a right relationship with God supposes us to act in a way that please Him. That isnt legalism. If we are walking with God, loving Him...then His laws will be kept. We dont keep His laws to have a relationship with Him...we have a relationship with Him and thus keep His laws (fruit of the Spirit).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...The other person in the relationship notices,

s...MM you absolutely cannot argue this way, you cannot just make a feel good statement and use it as proof. The other person may very well notice nothing, and continue to use and abuse their spouse...why, cause they are allowed to if a mindless application of obedience is applied to that marital circumstance. The eamples are all around you, even on these MB boards, of people married to users, who will never be a healthy marital partner. That falls under the lifetime question, your argument is nicely protected by simply writing these people off by saying so sorry your life was awful, but no you can't do anything about it, you will be rewarded in heaven though... MM one can offer that rationalization about any religious topic, it doesn't wash. We are either empowered by freewill to lead our lives in healthy manner, or we are not...I think we are.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again the freewill question. Of course, we may have a spouse that may not get it. Or they get it, but still do not follow. Our relationship with Christ isnt about our circumstances. Too often, being Americans, we believe we have a right to be happy, for everything to be there for us. A right to food, to health care. We have a right to be pleased by our spouse in a way that we want. And if someone denies us those rights, then we scream bloody murder.

but there are believers in other countries who are starving tonight...who are being persecuted. Their relationship with Christ is still to be the same. Listen to Him, follow Him, no matter the circumstances. If we do this, NO MATTER the circumstances, God will work it for our good (Romans 7 or 8, I believe). This is a promise by Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM...and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.

s...So marriage is about being a sacrificial lamb for a spouse we never would have chosen had we known what was coming (for those whom this applies too).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to an extent ...yes. Do you know that the Bible does not command wives to love their husbands? Respect, obey, etc...but not love. But guess what? Husbands are COMMANDED to love their wives, as Christ loves us. What kind of love is that? Sacrificial love! As I stated above, marriage is about establishing on Earth the relationship that we have with God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The idea we sublimate the marriage by pretending we are married to Him is questionable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretend? He is in the marriage. He put it together. Over and over again, it says in the Bible of how God's relationship in the marriage. The only marriage that even has a chance to meet its potential is the one that includes Christ in the relationship.

God will meet our needs married or not.[/quote]Oh, not necessarily. Read Hebrews 10. If a believer rebels against God, God will pull back His grace and allow us to reap the consequences. Obviously, we arent getting our needs met. Go read the passage in Romans (I dont have my Bible with me right now) that talks about the promise that God will make good everything to those that love him. Follow Him, and He will meet your needs. Chose your own way, and He will allow you to meet your own needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue is freewill, and are we empowered to assess and order our lives in all ways, or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get back to my post earlier where I talk about freewill, and about God's freewill. He need not give up His in order for us to have ours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The trouble with imposing draconian rules on one party to a marriage is that it empowers dysfunctional people to seek out such mates, marry them, and reap the rewards of having such a mate, while doing nothing in return, or worse being neglectful, abusive, narcissistic, slothful, whatever. Your argument only works when you have two psychologically/emotionally healthy people who want to (and have the capacity too), meet each others needs...but then if that were true, they probably don't want to divorce anyways.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not true. The rules apply to both. Remember what I said, walk with Him and He will take care of you. Walk away from Him, and you will walk alone. Thus, the WS that doesnt repent, or the spouse that doesnt meet their spouses needs, well, they are in for a rough ride themselves. When will it happen to them? What will happen to them? Who knows? But it will happen. The first thing that will happen to everyone like this is that they wont get what they deserve, the blessings provided by Christ. So they will miss out in life on things that they will only find out later that they missed out on.

God created us to have a relationship with Him. If we chose not to have that relationship, to do it our own way, He will allow freewill and let you go. But as was stated above, the umbrella of His protection will be removed. His blessings will no longer flow. We will have to create our own happiness...and fight our own battles with Satan.

It is no different than a kid that will not live by the rules of my household. I love them, but if they wont obey, they certainly arent going to get dessert tonight. And if they are old enough, they certainly wont be living in the house anymore.

I habve a friend that has a daughter in college. She announced last month that she is going to move in with her boyfriend when she goes back in the fall. Obviously, this is behavior that my friend does not allow. But since she is an adult, she has freewill. But my friend isnt going to support it either. He notified her that if she was going to do this, then she would also have to pay for things...that the money was to stop from him.

Was her freewill denied? Nope. But her father's freewill also was that if she was to live an immoral lifestyle, he wasnt going to support it financially. Her freewill led to consequences. She now must support herself, to provide her own finances if she is to live with her boyfriend.

Our relationship to God, and our freewill (and His) is alot like this.

In His arms.

Coffeeman,

A short response to your post.

Read 1st Corinthians. It says three times that ALL things are lawful for the believer. That means that yes, we can sin and our salvation still remain. Sin is all the same..stealing, lying, murder.

But, Hebrews 10 lays out what happens to the believer if they sin. In short, God will allow the consequences of their behavior to come. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." That sentence speaks of believers.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Here's what I wonder:

Is this thread, by this point, about learning Biblical principles... or is it about seeing how we all feel about what the Bible says regarding remarriage... or maybe it's about arguing about the Bible says... or perhaps about finding ways to continue the cycle of guilt and punishment that both the BS and WS already feel... or is it about convincing people that the Bible is the final say on all subjects, including adultery and remarriage? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My biggest beef with religion, and most especially Christianity (fundamentalists especially), is that so many within the 'system' push their beliefs down the throat of everyone - and God forbid someone believe differently.

I know that it's a free country, and this is a 'free' website and nobody has to read or write on any thread, and normally I enjoy a good debate... but my hackles really get up when I read things like:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A Christian can most certainly "judge" that a murder or a lie is a sin using "righteous judgement." We don't have to ask a court of law if lying is a sin, we know from the Bible that it is. God judges the soul, we judge the act....with "righteous judgement." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know how many wars (both literally and personally) are started because someone (a simple human) uses "righteous judgement" to determine right and wrong? Who are WE to judge? And the quote above clearly says that ******God******* judges the soul - not man.

As I've said before - I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus, that He died on the Cross for me, that He rose again. I believe because I do, not because someone tells me to, not because the Bible tells me to... just because I do. I have no desire to try to convince anyone to believe like I do, because it's personal. Yeah, I'd like it if everyone was nice, there was peace on earth, and all that good stuff... and one way I can achieve that in my little corner of the world is not to judge others (not easy, but it's a continuing process).

OK MM, think I am fairly clear on your position, will probably comment more later but here are some points, correct me as needed.

1. You believe all marriages are valid, there is no consideration of intent, ignorance, deceit, etc.

2. You believe you are "married" the instant you complete whatever social custom applies (that in itself is a little ambiguous, but whatever).

3. Once "married" it is for life, only exception being adultery, or a church sanctioned death declaration (which begs the issue then marriage is not an absolute, just not up to the individual in it, which puzzles me no end).

4. You believe God is all powerful, and can do anything He wants, but He won't lead one from a marriage chosen against His will (because we have freewill we can marry against God's will for us...true?). Therefore we can make a marital error, but we have no means to correct it, and cannot call on God to lead us out. We are trapped.

5. Allthough you agree we have freewill (and can thus err), any marriage we enter is the one we were supposed to enter.

6. You acknowledge that some have much better marriages than others. But if you are in a bad one, then it is a life sentence, you cannot seek out a healthier relationship but must be obedient to the premise divorce is not allowed, and you will be rewarded after you die for this obedience.

I assume you reject the notion that one may be civily married but not in a spiritual union, or that for a spiritual union to exist it must meet certain criteria or is not a oneflesh union, but simply cohabitation. I assume (from what you have posted) you also reject the notion someone can deliberately target another for marriage, knowing that if they can get them, they have them for life.

Sort of like signing up for the military and finding out you are to be a guinea pig for nuclear fallout tests (yes this did happen), but being obligated to comply because you signed a vow...rather than self-preservation trumping that vow and deserting.

Your army analogy was interesting, but doesn't work. Even the uniform code of military justice allows for disobedience and desertion if justified (for example, you cannot be ordered to certain death... which is why I do not believe marital doctrine can be interpreted as an absolute, or life sentence regardless of circumstances). There is no human analog for what you propose spiritually. Everything humans do is conditional, all vows, contracts, gaurantees etc. have limitations. There are sound philosophic principles why if you want to go there.

NB, can only speak for myself, but sense the same in MM, and others of similar ilk. We are not trying to make anyone do anything, we are simply exploring a complex issue as much for our own understanding as anyone elses....and if others benefit, great, if not, fine...there is no coercion involved cause no one has to read or participate.

You did say one thing, that you see no need to persuade others to your belief. If you are a Christian (and you said so) you are obligated to evangelize (in some sense). I don't think anyone disputes that, or has conflict with that tenet. That makes sense cause Christianity is a choice, one must make a proactive choice. That cannot happen if one is unaware, hence evangelism, you may be the tool chosen to "inform" someone of their choice...if you don't do that...what then?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
Coffeeman,

A short response to your post.

Read 1st Corinthians. It says three times that ALL things are lawful for the believer. That means that yes, we can sin and our salvation still remain. Sin is all the same..stealing, lying, murder.

But, Hebrews 10 lays out what happens to the believer if they sin. In short, God will allow the consequences of their behavior to come. "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." That sentence speaks of believers.

In His arms.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry MM but I fail to grasp how one can be saved while at the same time falling into the hands of God.

I can grasp being saved by beleiving in Jesus Christ as the son of God, but to expect to be saved later by committing all sorts of unspeakable acts against fellow human beings without paying the price of damnation? I can see salvation being possible IF the latter came first and the former came second, for it would indicate true beleif with repentance and not just lip service.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I've been holding my tongue for quite some time. I've had it, I have flat out had it. Here's what I really think:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A pouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles. WILL be reqwarded. Maybe with a repentant spouse. Maybe it will take your whole life before they come around. Maybe they never will. But our obedience does not go unnoticed. The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it will take my whole life????!!!!????

Call me selfish, call me an adulteress, call me a heathen, call me what you like, judge me how you like, but I REFUSE to sit by for my whole life waiting for my H to have a revelation and suddenly decide I am worthy of him treating me like his wife again.

As far as I know, we're only here once, and if my H won't wake up and choose to treat me as his wife again, I will divorce him, I want to find someone else to love and have kids with, and I want to live a happy Christian life with that other man and the kids we may get to have.

I don't think God wants me to live in misery waiting for a man who doesn't want me and can't find forgiveness in his heart to come back to me or to take me back as it were.

Besides, divorce is allowed for in the case of infidelity. Sure it was originally my infidelity, but my H's obsession with porn, and his unnaturally close friendship (it may be more) with two female friends sure could be chalked up as infidelity as well.

So I may burn in hell for remarrying, but I sure as heck am not going to sit and pine and pray for my H to come back to me for all of my life. Forget it. There have to be limits to the suffering we must endure.

It sure is easy to preach about praying and waiting when you are with your spouse, isn't it?

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>You did say one thing, that you see no need to persuade others to your belief. If you are a Christian (and you said so) you are obligated to evangelize (in some sense). I don't think anyone disputes that, or has conflict with that tenet. That makes sense cause Christianity is a choice, one must make a proactive choice. That cannot happen if one is unaware, hence evangelism, you may be the tool chosen to "inform" someone of their choice...if you don't do that...what then?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I suppose I missed the mark somewhat in my explanation on that one. However, I would disagree with my being "obligated" to evenagelize in the traditional sense.

I share, if it feels safe to do so, but will stop immediately if someone asks me not to discuss it with them. Also, if I feel that my beliefs are being mocked, or that to continue the conversation would bring negativity or ugliness, I stop.

I do believe that God brings people, or situations into our lives as a vehicle to discuss... perhaps even here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... but will not do "cold calls" about my beliefs.

Also, as I stated earlier in this thread, I am not saying that we, as a society, cannot judge wrong... clearly there are some things that are evil beyond explanation. But to judge someone who is truly trying to live a good redeemed life... I just think it's wrong.

Easy Jen, this is only a philosophical exercise. It is only natural that people tend to disagree but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are branding you. I personally don't beleive that you will forever carry the scarlet letter around your neck until the last day of your life, and neither should you. You are a good person that made terrible choices, but has repented, sought forgiveness from God and her H, and in my book, you are somebody I respect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>So I may burn in hell for remarrying...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, I'll be there too, as I already remarried. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen, you don't need any of us to tell you anything -- you know your heart, God knows your heart, and it's between God and you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
So I may burn in hell for remarrying...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that's the case, you are going to have my company as well. I hope you can endure an eternity of lame jokes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A spouse who sticks out their marriage, who stays committed to God's principles.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with Jen. There is not way God wanted any of us to have to just put up with the abuse (physical, emotional, infidelity, etc.) of a bad marriage. Even if a person follows the bible closely here are allowances for divorce and remarriage.

To make a person feel like they are somehow sinning because they have to leave a bad marriage is WRONG. Are you going to tell me that if a man beats his wife, that the only way she can live by God’s principles is put up with it and hope some day her husband will suddenly realize that she was right and good and he was a scumbag for abusing her? It seldom happens. For the most part abusers just get worse with age.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other person in the relationship notices, and the love and friendship between the Christ and us will increase. And our needs will be met by Him, even if our spouse is not meeting them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the most part the arrant spouse will not notice the love and friendship we have with Christ. It’s a good, feel good philosophy but it sets people up for allowing themselves to be treated horribly.

Much of this discussion reminds me of the argument some use that a woman is not to dress in her husband’s clothing. So they say that a woman is not to wear pants or slacks. This is ridiculous. At the time it was written men did not wear pants or slacks either. They wore robes, women wore robes. So if they both wore robes does this mean that the woman was to go around naked to not dress like her husband? Nooooo this mean that a woman is not to be like a man… that she is not to take her husband’s place in family, society and sexually. She is not to BE a man. Today there are men’s versions of pants and women’s versions. Today we define men’s and women’s roles differently then they were defined in biblical times… so it is applied to our current social structure.

When the bible was written, the average human lived to only 22 years of age. If they married at the normal 13 –14 years of age they had only 8-10 years of marriage ahead of them. It’s a lot easier to be married for life when life is so short. At the turn of the 20th century, the average life span for a man was 45 and for a woman was 47. Again it was much easier to be married for life at that time. Today we the average man lives to be about 75 and the average women to be 80. So if a couple marries at 20, they easily can look at having a 55-year marriage. That is a long time and many things can happen in that time.

Do you really think that the God intended for a person to marry at 20 and live in a abusive marriage until she was 80 years old? Do you really think that was the intent? I hardly think so. Religion has to be applied with some common sense.