Some of you know my story and know I am trying to get WS to leave my home. Well, we havent had much R talk the past few days, but something happened today that launched a hugh discussion. WS said a bunch of stuff to me today. I would like to hear the VETS take on this. So here it goes:

-There is no way to fix this marriage--should get a divorce.

-He has disappointed me in so many ways.

-He cant make me happy..theres just no way.

-Has done nothing than complicate my life and I would have been much better off if I never had met him.

-All he seems to do is hurt the people who love him.

-Has given this relationship everything he has and this is what it has gotten him...him stepping outside the marriage.

-Says his A is no reflection on ME...therefore I should not feel bad about myself and doesnt understand why I do.

-Told me I should not waste my breath, time and energy talking to him, because there is no way he will ever understand why I still want him and this M.

-Thinks people who stay together after an A are crazy.

-Told me if the roles were reversed and I was the one who strayed, there would be no way he would still be around.

And after he said all these things to me I asked him why 7 months after d-day are you still here and why havent you filed for Divorce.

His response-" I guess I am not willing to accept it or even think about it". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Okay let know what you guys think!!

Lisa

Lisa,

I think the man is committed to the life of a single man and has no intentions of honoring his committment to his family. This is a LIFESTYLE with him instead of an aberration of character.

I think you are fortunate in that he has made that very clear. At least he is not stringing you along by even pretending to be committed. And I think you understand that you can't possibly change him.

I would move to a REAL Plan B immediately, even if you have to file for legal seperation to get him removed from your house. It won't be easy, but the sooner you detach from him, the better.

Not a veteran (hope to be someday).
Those statements sound like he's remorseful about his actions, yet not remorseful enough to change (yet). He's trying to convince you to leave so he can start life anew. He doesn't want to work hard at M right now...thinks it will be too tough (just let him try living on his own, or trying a life with someone new). That's what Plan B is about...to let him see how EASY he had it with you...and that although recovery is hard work...it's harder to live alone, or start a new life.

He's living in a fantasy now...poor me...life is better without me, so don't throw me into the briar patch...if you get that analogy.

I agree with MelodyLane. My ex said all those things. The only difference is I asked him to move back in after I asked him to leave, and he never did move back in. But he was all over the fence and he said all those things. I think it is so they don't have to put any effort to keeping a commitment that would change their lifestyle. They want us around because we are safe and have taken care of them and loved them unconditionally, but they also want their own life (which is what they may call fun, but I call hell) where there is no responsibilty. To me that is a sad, pitiful way to live. I'm sorry Lisa, I don't know any words of comfort for you, except that you are very strong. I would get into Plan B and get him out ASAP though. I don't really regret my husband leaving when he did, because otherwise I don't know how long it would have dragged out.

I'm definately not a veteran, but how could you live with this man for 7 months after d-day and not go into plan B? You must be very strong. I know I couldn't be around my wife when she told me about her affair. She moved out 2 weeks after d-day. Your husband has the best of both worlds, don't let him continue to do this. He needs to go out on his own for awhile and feel what its like. I know you may be scared if he leaves he will be able to continue his affair. But it seems he's doing that anyway. This way, he can be with her at all times and 'really' get to know her. He may find out she's not all he expected. Affairs are based on lies and fantasies. The quicker the 2 are totally alone and get over the 'honeymoon' phase and real life responsibilities hit them, they usually decide the affair isn't what they wanted in the first place. Like I said, I'm no veteran, but being in plan B has helped me emotionally. I think it may be time for you to go into plan B....

Did he get a cake and candles for his little pity party?

I'm sorry, I am generally not a mean-spirited [censored] but I want to shake someone like this and scream "Stop your whining, take some responsibility and grow a spine you Hamster-man!!!"

My thought is that status quo ain't gonna work so one of two possibilities might.
1. Life with him
2. Life without him.

Ok, overly simplistic but I have a point - let's look at what he is whimpering here:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -There is no way to fix this marriage--should get a divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine, go get one but don't play this passive/aggressive bullsh!t with me hopin I will beg and plead with you to stay. Want out? Watch that door on the way out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -He has disappointed me in so many ways.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and most of all by handling this mess you made by sitting in the corner and whimpering rather than acting like the man I fell in love with and busting your tail to fix things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -He cant make me happy..theres just no way</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought we already covered the passive aggressive bullsh!t hamster man? NO WAY he can please you? Bulldinkies, give the saddest woman in town 3 hours, Nordstrom's shoe department and a Gold Card and you'll have to surgically remove the friggin smile from her face. This statement says "I am soooo good and try sooooo hard and you are such an evil b!tch that nothing will ever be good enough boohoohoooo. I know I am harsh on WS's, check my sig line - I am not a bitter BS. This kind of WS mindgaming manipulative puke annoys me. He is not a child. He needs to show some testicular fortitude and quit acting as though he is a freakin victim. Challenge him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -Has done nothing than complicate my life and I would have been much better off if I never had met him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get down off the cross buddy, somebody may need the wood. Ok, we still haven't achieved burnthrough on the P/A stuff now have we?
How about "Gee honey that's true, I thought I was marrying a man of character who had determination, self-respect and integrity and would not sit around blaming the world when he made mistakes. Was I right to believe that you CANBE a great man or are you a pitiful, whimpering hamster? I deserve better than what you have been, I deserve what you can be - are you going to be that or is this the best you got?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -All he seems to do is hurt the people who love him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh for the love of crud - I hope he is not crying this river in the hurricane path, flooding is bad enough already. More on this later.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> -Has given this relationship everything he has and this is what it has gotten him...him stepping outside the marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boohoo, life is hard and sometimes you get knocked on your a$$, wear a cup next time and quit the manipulative guilting tactics - take responsibility for the fact that you, not the cruel world and not your wife and not even the OW were responsible for sticking your penis into another woman bubba, you did that. Own it, deal with it, make up for it but quit whining about it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-Says his A is no reflection on ME...therefore I should not feel bad about myself and doesnt understand why I do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, credit where credit is due - right up until the ... he is talking sense. The second half? OK, let's clarify that one for him - "Imagine your friend Bill (or Bob or whomever) ...now picture Bob screwing my brains out while I scream in ecstasy... any questions dumbsh!t?"

Ok, ripping this guy a new a-hole was probably helpful since his head is lodged firmly in the original. Continuing will piss me off to a point where i am not helpful to you at all.

Bottom line - Your husband is trying to send you on a fun-filled all-expenses paid guilt trip. Remorse for what he has done? No, of course not, life is too hard as are you and thus he was forced into it. I hope I never sounded that pathetic but sadly, some of it was dead on the scumbag i used to be.

Suggestion? No coddling. Yes, dear, you are broken. Fix yourself, allow me to help you fix yourself and our marriage or quit threatening to divorce me and do it - meantime quit complaining and whining and decide, quickly, whether you are going to get up and reclaim your life and wife or if you would rather sit in the corner and cry - if door number one I'm in, if door number two? Get out.

His game is real simple - first blame you because nothing is good enough for you, then excuse his crap because he tried so hard and then try to convince you that he is the victim because his little feelings are hurt?

Sorry, bullsh!t. Sometimes seeing that their BS has had it with the excuses and is ready to kick your sorry tail out is a wakeup call. He needs counseling, if you are letting yourself feel sorry for him STOP!!!! Yes, you are responsible for 50% of the marital situation BEFORE the affair. The affair is HIS mistake.

Ahhhhhhh man, sorry, this just makes me nuts because it is one more lie, one more deception and one more example of selfish memememememe behavior from a WS who does not get it.

Let cooler heads advise you but 90% of the BS's who get a really good response from a WS do so right after putting their foot down and saying ENOUGH!

Beautifully said, 2 of a kind. I printed out a lot of your stuff when I first came here, since you were a WS especially. Lisa0705, he sounds like he has your husband's number. My ex was called "passive aggressive" by our counselor, and I also was made to feel guilty, like nothing he did would be good enough. Don't fall into that trap! Try to evaluate your situation like an outsider would (hard to do I know) and see if you would tell that person to stay in it or to get away for their own emotional sake!

Sorry for going 2 degrees short of ballistic on this one but if this guy got kicked in the [censored] he'd get a concussion. I put out a call on Recovery for a slightly gentler voice to opine.

Oddly, I have developed a reputation for being somewhat harsh on WS who think it is everyone else's fault. Maybe just because I can stand being called a [censored] easier than a victim. Yuck.

Lisa,

I think 2Oak pretty much got it right in his original post. It seems to me your two options for Gerbil-Boy are tough love or no love. In other words, it seems to me your best choice is to get going on Plan B and get him out of your house. Either he responds to that tough love approach by performing one of those rectal-cranial extractions or you get on with your life.

Now, how you do get him out I don't know, but I'm sure someone her can help you with that if you decide that's the course you want to take.

Lisa,
Let me first say I really feel for where you are as I had a WS with the same personality (or lack thereof) It is so much easier for them to be the "down trodden" "the whoa is me" and to turn YOUR, Pain, Frustration, Dispair, Hurt....etc....to make it all about him!! I bet if you think back on your time with him, he did this alot on all levels of your relationship. It's so easy to say "I can't make you happy"....well of course he can't, he has no inititive nor is he willing to try. So with every passive little victimhood retort he throws at you he soothes himself, making it his reality to believe the crap he is slinging at you.

It may get better after he falls on his butt, delves deep inside after he is hit bottom and rethinks some things about himself as he stares into a mirror and takes off his delusional glasses. It's not about you at all Lisa, it's about his lack of responsiblity to himself as a man first!!! Then as a husband and father. It has to start with him really seeing himself in other roles than a victim of his immaturity. Can he do it?? Sure...anyone can if they WANT AND CHOOSE TO!! That's the great thing about us humans we can change and adapt to about anything. Until he realizes that his failures are about him he can't let go of "riding on the melodrama" he creates in his mind. I know it sounds like I am being harsh and I am not. I really do sympathize and feel for you because it's difficult dealing with someone like him especially when it's your heart involved and the vulnerability you feel. Please know that I have gone through a similar experience as some who know me on this board can testify to. I just have not been on here for a long time and so I felt compelled to write to you after reading your thread, also 2OAK needed to calm down because I saw his veins popping like the HULK and I was getting a little worried he might get toooo angry...(lol, just teasin 2)

My best wishes and thoughts and I will check back to see how it is going. While I don't know all your history, I did read this thread and I thought I wrote almost a year ago.

Neesha

Lisa,

I am more interested what was your answer to him & his reactions ... WS usually tries to gauge how far they could go if they are cake eater or to get assurance from BS if they still not sure yet.

I really gun shy to sugest someone to go plan B w/o all the detail ... one should always get M coaching to decide and doing plan B.

-rh-

I don't know your story, so there may be a ggod reason, but why wait for him to leave. If you are trying to get him out of the house...well, you leave if he won't.

The other stuff doesn't sound so much like fog as it does a guy that has found what works for him...befuddling the conversation till you lose patience and leave the room. I noticed he didn't make anything "firm" with his comments, but left it open. Sounds like a pro.

I would also like to know YOUR responses.
T

Touche, 2oak!

Thanks everyone for you post and candid thoughts. Maybe I can answer some of your questions.

-2oak: you have echoed my frustration with WH to a tee. This is not the man I was first attracted to and then fell in love with and married. WH was the complete opposite. All those qualities that he should be showing now were the very same qualities that I was attracted to. I dont think you know anything about my WH. Real quick, I am 37 and WH is 28..we are a blended family and have 5 kids all together. My D-13, His D-10, S-6, our two together S-3, D-2. We have our own business, that we started together. WH has not had an easy life..(no excuse and he will never use it), was emancipated by the state of PA at the age of 16. Parents basically kicked him out. Went to volitile (sp) relationship that produced his two kids at a very young age, as you can see. Then meets me. For the past 6 1/2 years we have spent building a life for us and our 5 children. We have been fighting for custody of his 2 kids for 4 years, and finally made some progress on that front this past year. WH cant say to me that this relationship was terrible from the beginning, actually he says the opposite. Boom last fall comes...starts sleeping with OW and our business vitually collapses at our feet. Fast forward..I guess from my post you can see where we are at with the situation. FYI 2oak..WH has been in counseling since aboout 2 weeks after D-Day (Feb 14, 2003). Also we are on the verge of losing everything...house, 2 vehicles, business. What more can I say.

Redhat and Twyla:

Here are some of my responses and his reactions to what WH said to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-There is no way to fix this marriage--should get a divorce.

-I said then if thats how you really feel then you need to leave now and I will wait to be served with D papers.

WH Response-Is that how you really want to handle this? DUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-He has disappointed me in so many ways.

My Response-Have I ever once said to you that you have disappointed me. WH Response-Yeah you just did about not being the kind of father our kids need. My Response-I was talking about the example you are setting for these children at such a crucial age.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-He cant make me happy..theres just no way

My response-Well you can start by stop seeing your girlfriends and commit to me, our family and this M. WH-No response

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-Has done nothing than complicate my life and I would have been much better off if I never had met him.

My response-how have you done this. WH response-just have..thats the way I see it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-All he seems to do is hurt the people who love him.

My response-If that is how you truly feel..lets break that cycle right now and figure out why you do this together. WH-Its me..how are you gonna help??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-Told me I should not waste my breath, time and energy talking to him, because there is no way he will ever understand why I still want him and this M.

-Thinks people who stay together after an A are crazy.

-Told me if the roles were reversed and I was the one who strayed, there would be no way he would still be around.

My response-I tell you how feel because this is how I feel. I am not willing to lose my M and H.
WH-Why would you even want me..look at me.
My response to if roles were reversed-Well I guess that is where we are totally different on our thinking. WH-Yeah we are and therefore I will never understan why you still want this.

These were the responses in a nutshell..obviously we talk about each statement alot..but this is the jist or the resolution of the statement.

By the way WH is still living and doesnt seem like hes doing to much to leave..even though he is the one to say all those statements.

Thanks guys and more thoughts please post.

Lisa

OOOPS did my quotes wrong..hopen not to confusing..maybe you can tell me how.

Lisa

Lisa,

You did good, you leave him an impression that you still want your M and H but no room for OW.

Now, in your oppinion is OW ready to take WH ?.

-rh-

So unless I am tottaly off here , It sounds to me (JMO) that he wants YOU to do all this for him .

He either wants you to file for D.
Wants you to leave him .
OR he wants you to sit there and be roommates .

Well I will go ahead and post even though most will not agree .

I can relate to the WON"T GET OUT THING !

And I can relate to the fact that you can't leave kids,money , ect.

So here my 2 cents throw him out .Now thats a LB I know but hey he wants YOU to do something , being that he is playing the I AM SO PATHETIC ROLE !

OR You can live with him there and go about life as he don't exsist .

OR you can piss him off and invite all OW involved to the house for tea and wait for him to come home so you all can chat about the best way to help POOR HIM .

OK maybe #3 is a bit much . LOL

Lisa having him there will only kill off any chance you have to recover yourself or your M .

JMVHO , he wants the blame to fall on you , he is copping out . Figures if he says all this you will get pissed and do it all for him .

He is a coward and does not want to fix any mess on his own .
If he gets you to through him out and file then he didn't have to make desion .IF you don't and he tells you all these feelings and stays well he doesn't have to commit to OW .

HE basicly does not want to $HIT and get off the pot!

I think he is confused , LITTLE BOY , BIG MESS .
AND he did that all on his own .

ALL here says PLAN B , I know how do ya get him out ? WELL if he won't leave willingly and you
throw him out .

I remeber your story from an earlier post now.
Business dying and losing everything does not surprise me a teentsy bit. When you throw out the rules in one area of your life do you follow the rules elsewhere?? not bloody likely.

I destroyed a LOT of things during my affair and it will take me years to get recoup losses in some areas... but focusing on my relationship with my BS first got the rest on track.

Don't know what to tell ya Lisa... it sounds like you have gotten the same advice on this for a while and know that the current situation is not acceptable to you.

Are you really asking whether it is time to cut your losses and let him go? If so, tough call - losing the man he is right now would be like losing 10 pounds, losing the possibility of the man you believe he can be is big.

But here's the thing - you can beg, plead, scream and hold your breath until he changes but until he really feels the fire at his feet he is going to mope and play these woe is me games...

If you feel like more counseling or SOMETHING you have not tried can work at home (think, not hope!) then by all means try it. If not? Well you are not going to live this way forever so if he says he wants out etcetera then I think you might have to call his bluff and make plans for a life without him - and tell him so. He can join you or he can drown by himself.

We all want to save our loved ones but there is a cardinal rule that every lifeguard learns day 1 - DON'T DROWN TRYING TO SAVE SOMEONE!

Redhat,

Thanks I thought my answers were steadfast with everything I have been saying since D-Day.

Is OW ready to have him?? Well WH has always told me he will not go running to her. It is not a choice between me and her, never has been nerver will be. But is unwilling to end the R. I asked him why he still talks to her and sees her..WH said I really dont know. OW called me a few weeks ago and told me she could very easily have WH come live with her, but she thinks he needs to be on his own for awhile. Any Red, I think this fantasy is becoming to real for WH because now he is talking to OW2. Even though he will deny it until the day he dies. I know for sure. Would love to call OW1 and let her know this is still going on. See she knew too, and I am sure WH lied his way out of that also.

3,

I agree with you 100%..you see even before A, WH would just come up to me and hug me and say why are you with me? You know I will never leave..you will have to be the one to leave me and someday you will.

As far as throwing him out..the one thing I definitely know about my H..is if I do that he will never come back. This goes back to his parents throwing him out and his relationship prior to ours. He has always expressed that to me since the day I met him. This scares me to death.

2oak,

Yes everybody has given me the same advice and no this situation is not acceptable. The past few weeks I have made some taken some steps to prepare myself for a life without him. I have been looking for a full time job and have another interview tom...have been home with the kids. Everything is in my name only..including our business. Told WH yesterday..I have made an appt. with my accountant to review my options her. i.e. Business, re-fi house, claiming bankruptcy..all of which WH name is NOT attached to. Also told him I was willing able and ready to do whatever I need to to protect my children and that includes filing for sole custody..the day we split. There is no way my kids are going to be around OW1 who is an exotic dancer!!

You are right I do feel as though I am drowning right along with him and I cant let that happen..I have children to care for. Thanks for your candor..hope to continue to hear from you.

Thanks Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa0705:
<strong>Red, I think this fantasy is becoming to real for WH because now he is talking to OW2. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get all the logistic of plan B in the line ... draft plan B letter and ready to hand it to him.

When you are ready ... put his belonging in the front porch ! w/ that plan B letter. You need to push him to get a taste of reality. Staying would just drained you up and make you prone to LB.

-rh-